Transcripts For CNNW The 20240703

Norman, bad news. I never graduated from med school. What . But the good news is. Xfinity mobile just got even better now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. Plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. I gotta get this deal. Thats like 20 a month per unlimited line. I dont want to miss that. Thats amazing doc. Mobile savings are calling. Visit xfinitymobile. Com to learn more. Doc . With everybody sao powering progress this source, but Kaitlan Collins next and it has just passed 9 00 p. M. Hours after an attorney for the former president did what he likely wishes he could but cannot because of a gag order launch into a verbal assault on Michael Cohen in his motives and combustible pass, the language was course from the start prompting an immediate sidebar with the judge moments later, the defense returned to the colorful language cone is used on social media to describe his onetime boss painting, an image of him as a jolted former employee with dollar signs in his eyes also for the second day this week, the course of the former president s allies, some of whom are vp contender, showed up attacking the trial and cohen in ways once again, the former president cannot joining our team here tonight is karen ramy, a reporter for the Wall Street Journal has been following the trial from inside the courtroom. What stood out to you today . I think that moment you just described with todd blanche sort of coming straight out of the gates super aggressive at the beginning of cross very much stood out to me, especially because of i think it was well, if the judge the answer is no theyre shawn shut it down quickly. And as we saw in the transcript, that sidebar, my sean said dont make this about you for that perspective no. But for the jury, i mean, i guess it did show that he was aggressive and his intention was to go after cohen, even if ultimately the rest of the cross are much of the rest of the cross was a little more toned down. You have a sense of what the reaction in the courtroom was or whether youre how the jurors seemed to interpret it throughout the jurors were quite engaged. They werent sort of captivated the way but i think they were sometimes during the Stormy Daniels testimony, but they were engaged. They were taking notes. They seem to be taking it seriously. At times, i had a pretty good seat of like being able to see the jury today and blanche would be asking about some of cohens Social Media Habits and hed be talking about a Chito Crusted Cartoon Villain or some such thing. And the jurors are like Studiously Writing notes and wondering like they just write down Sciutto Crusted Cartoon Villain its very possible its robust you said that you pointed out that cohens testimony is essential to prosecutors because hes the only witness who was tied to cover up a Hush Money Payment directly to trump. Do you think he was effective in doing so . And do you think in his testimony well, i think thats the big question here, is whether there are these moments that cohen talks about, that he is the only one bin tell that story like prosecutors did the absolute best they could in having the phone records, having the pictures this morning when he was talking about the Oval Office Meeting prosecutors would flash things on the screen. There was a photo of cohen at a podium at a lectern and the white house, there was a calendar entry showing that he had recorded that he went to the white house on that certain de so i imagine theres no doubt in jurors minds that cohen was in the white house on that certain day but whether in that meeting trump had the conversation that cohen recalls having. I think thats something that jurors are going to be deciding over the next week of the trial. And for as much as as important as it is for Michael Cohen for the prosecution making there are argument hes also the biggest witness for the defense and making their counterargument and saying that donald trump wasnt responsible for this. And so there is so much writing on how todd blanche does handle that when Michael Cohen is back on the stand on thursday and what we heard from this afternoon is that trump was initially pleased with how this is the only thing todd blanche is really done in this case he hasnt really crossexamined anyone else at length or taken much of a presence. Hes been there every day, but this is his entire job is to crossexamine Michael Cohen and to do so successfully, trump was initially happy with how todd blanche actually did today. Of course, trump judges everything that he really sees in his evaluation based on the perception and the coverage of it so well see if that changes over the next. So that point elie, how did you think todd blanche did today . Well, i wasnt impressed with him with just based on the transcript and based on our feed, we had a cnn i thought he was a little bit all over the map and im interested in what you thought because weve been focused very much on what was Michael Cohens demeanor . How did he play in the courtroom . What was blanche like . Because i know him. I go back to the sudden district of new york with him. He was a pretty mild personality, like all of us. He can get more more jacked up for the courtroom. What was he like after that initial aggressive questioning . Yeah. It was much more mild. I mean, it wasnt timid. It wasnt he wasnt afraid of cohen, but it was called it was he was clearly prepared. Hed clearly been practicing for this moments but he wasnt attacking cohen its interesting for the most part youve seen a lot of the trial up close. Do you feel that there is an explanation for this 420,000 . Colors other than what the prosecution has said that money is four i mean, whats the Defense Argument for what this 420,000 is for it just because donald trump felt like giving it to Michael Cohen. I think prosecutors were trying to squash a few possible Defense Arguments today. In their questioning, they talked about the legal work that cohen had done or even consulting work sort of post trumps election and it was minimal like they were trying to make to say defense if youre going to argue that this is what cohens getting paid for. It will not cut it i think they made that case, but i think the question is not whether what cohen was getting paid for or was this a legal retainer. It really is about whether trump himself directed these false Business Records that he is charged with and that is something that cohen is the one who can speak to that. And michael, you dont think i mean, typically i think the prosecution has proved their case. You dont think that i dont think they have yet. I mean, i think theyre trying to with cohen. I think thats why weisselberg is such a big deal and it is absence from the trial is such a big deal. I think theyve gotten to the part of yeah, theres some false Business Records grids, but this next step of did they falsify the record with the intent of committing another crime . I think thats where you put trump in the room where you need somebody to what tobacco, what go in. And as karen said, i mean, i think the the main weakness in the governments case is the connection of donald trump not to the payments, but to the creation of the false Business Records. I mean, we heard about how those records were knowledge if he had knowledge that it was being knowledge is not enough. He has to have caused it. Now, he doesnt have to have done it himself. He doesnt have two views the dropdown menu. He doesnt have to have put the words retainer on the on the the check stub but he has to have engaged in behavior that led the people who did actually do the writing to have done that. But can you make the argument that his behavior if he so lets put Stormy Daniels and he wanted to cover it up and he paid the such money that that caused the behavior. Well i think its got to be a little more direct than that. I mean, it doesnt have to be him saying file this. No, it doesnt have to be an explicit instruction, but it does have to be behavior that led to this specific act of creating the false business record. And that is to me, still the weakest part of the governments case. Everything else i think is theyve gotten to it is Michael Cohen saying that donald trump did approve it verbally when Allen Weisselberg showed it to him. That is really and its not clear theyre going to get much closer to that. So thats the question of truly it is up to the jury and if they view that as legitimate enough and far enough, the word the language in an indictment is crucial. And remember, youve got to lawyers on this jury, which is unusual that might really look at the technical aspects of it and what it says is that the writing, the ms record is done with the intent to defraud and the intent to commit another crime. And aid and covering it up so theyve got all of these things. Ive got approved and im saying i dont think theyve gotten all the way across the finish line with them, but i think if im not mistaken, it may say antony dive in. But when the judge is going to instruct the jury on the law and its really going to be an or practically so its going to be enough for them to prove that it was done with the intention of concealing another crime. I think all of us one thing they bill told the jury is that theres direct evidence and the circumstantial evidence, but both are evidence. So we dont need necessarily that smoking gun moment where someone comes comes in and heres a video or something else. You could have substantial evidence may think what the strength of the prosecutions case. Heres what weve been talking about is going to be this competing narratives and we have a lot of evidence here. I think the idea that the process, but the jury is going to say, yes, he did this for the campaign in yes he he he on tape with Michael Cohen and yes david pecker also met with him and yet he signed all these checks, did all that stuff, but the one thing he didnt know about was about the ossification of these documents. I dont think it really makes rational sense. I think if youre a Defense Lawyer, your case, youre counternarrative has to make rational sense. I think here its not going to be enough to have these little next up credibility but its not going to be enough to say you really have a vendetta against the sky because for everything, theyve shown Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels say about donald trump. They have another tweet, like you said, kaitlan, they have another more vitriol thats coming the other way so really what were looking at, a lot of folks from the Defense Table to the cooperators who were all dirty, i think but those documents were i think the prosecution at tip over to having a pretty persuasive case current. I mean, i think oh, sorry. No good. I think the other thing the prosecution does is we have heard a lot the past couple of days about trump and micromanaging. Like they have really made a case that trump wasnt not only was trump on micromanager but, the cohen wanted that and really wanted trumps approval, wanted trumps attention and checkin with trump at every step of the way, every step of the way that cohen needed trumps approval, not just because trump wanted it, because cohen needed it let me ask you the former president has had a growing entourage and nonfamily members, but of various characters who are additional for Vice President and other things the group that was there today, what kind of an impact did that have in the i mean, were they noticeable in the courtroom . Do they . Does it change the dynamic . And anyway, the courtroom, they were noticeable. The sort of Courtroom Benches behind trump have at times been half empty, right . When i was there, like Boris Epshteyn was just there checking his phone and thrilled. Yeah. Sometimes its like that and so theres this packed courtroom of reporters and like five people from the public in the back and then the he is empty pews near where trump is sitting are behind where trump is sitting. But the past couple of days, its been packed that he has had all these supporters and its quite noticeable. And at one point today, some of these republican elected officials in the middle of one just walked in and it was so odd because theres a lot of rules in the courtroom that we cant just say go to the bathroom or have a snack or like do whatever you want or leave . Yeah. You cant even eat in that courtroom. And it was in a moment with Michael Cohen was answering a question from the prosecution and the Morning Break had ended. They had all trumps allies had gone outside to do a Press Conference because you can weaken still have our computers. You could see online they were outside speaking publicly and only a few people came back in after the break. We assume they could just left because the bench was empty behind donald trump and then while Michael Cohen is in the middle of a sentence in walks, byron donalds, vivek ramaswamy, governor burgum another campaign aide. I believe theres at least four people, maybe five, and they dont slip into the back and go to the back row. They walk all the way up to the front and they get in the second row. It wasnt clear from i was on the left side, so it wasnt clear how the jury, if they looked if it distracted them, if it distracted Michael Cohen, but there was a moment where i saw the judge, Justice Marshall ive been watching him throughout the case. He was essentially glaring at them. He looked noticeably annoyed at the fact that they just walked in and you just dont see that in that courtroom. It was the least i mean, its a very ordered proceeding. And that was the least order, but i think ive seen in the past couple of weeks, things are binoculars if theyre in a sidebar, i mean, its that strict and theres multiple Court Officers Walking Around telling you you cant be talking, you cant be on your phone if youre a Reporter Member of the public. And it was just it was a kind of love that you have been oculars im going to like those oculars binoculars, you know, i dont have monocular and i was starting to think that i needed some. Now theyve been cracking down here i couldnt randy, its great to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me everyone is going to stay here. We may not have video of Michael Cohens backandforth with the defense, but there is definitely heat than emanates out the transcripts, john berman joins us that also ahead. What was said in court today, but with the former president would be testifying in this case from medium rare well so many ways to save life ready, wallet, happy. 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Always moving forward. We lead. Others follow. Healthy home now up to 50 off and ako this is cnn. The worlds news closed captioning is brought to you by skechers, handsfree slip ends. This tiny home tran now this is more like it. The same goes for my foot work. Well, i one handsfree with wide fits, get your slipping dry wipe fits, get your slip if one thing comes through loud and clear in the transcripts from todays trial, and its something elie honig mentioned earlier. Theres a love lost between Michael Cohen and the former president and his, if we had any doubt about that at one point, the prosecution had cohen Reading Tweets from the president and the months after the fbi rated cohens office in 28 18, trump had praised his former campaign manager, Paul Manafort and one for refusing the code break. Cohen said he understood he was being told not to cooperate. John berman joint does more of the transcripts. I knew even going through them. What else have you felt so there was one exchange that caught my eye that gets to two points here that youve all been talking about. Number one, how little Michael Cohen . On currently likes donald trump and how much he wants to see him convicted in to how Michael Cohen didnt directly answer a lot of the questions, at least at first that blanche posed to him. So blanched asks him, youve also talked extensively on may a culpa his podcast, your desire to see that President Trump getting convicted in this case, correct cohen says, sounds like something i think i would say blanche says, well, sir, im not asking you if it sounds like something you would say im saying, did you have you regularly commented on your podcasts that you wanted President Trump to be convicted in this case. Cohen then says yeah, probably. And then blanche says, do you have any doubt . Cohen says, no then blanche says so why did you answer . Yes probably. Cohen says because i dont specifically know if i use those words, but yes, i would like to see that blanche says, and so yes, you want to see President Trump get convicted from this case, correct . Cohen says, i would like to see accountability thats not its not for me, its for the jury and this Court Blanche says, i didnt ask what you wanted to see or not nazi about accountability. I said, do you want to see President Trump convicted in this case . Cohen says, thats what we just said. Youre asking me if i want to see blanche says im just asking you to say yes or no. Do you want President Trump to get convicted in this case . Michael cohen ultimately says sure. This is what we call pulling teeth i know it can seem like cohen had a couple witty rejoinders there, but i dont think what he rejoinders play well with juries. I would have if i was on the prosecution sayyed, i would have much preferred Michael Cohen when the question was, youve start on your podcasts that you want donald trump convicted . Yes, i have you hope that he is held accountable . Yes, i do. Youve wide yes, i did. When it gets into all this gap, probably. How could it be . Yeah, probably he says that every single day of his life. So it makes cohen look like someone whos maybe willing to just shade the truth a little bit. And by the way, ultimately, the defenses pitch to the jury is not that you have to believe that Michael Cohen is a fantasy to makes up things out of whole cloth if you believe Michael Cohen just tweaks the truth a little here and there, throws a little yeah. Probably when the answer should be yes the evidence in this case is we were just talking about is close enough that that can be enough if you dont believe Michael Cohen hundred percent, you can throw this out. So i dont like those responses from inconstant i dont know if theres an argument that the prosecutors would make, but maybe its too strange, but if cohen really wanted to lie and convict trump, he could have said in this meeting with Allen Weisselberg and trump that trump definitively said, yes. Violet, as a legal absolutely. Thats a very thats a powerful argument. There are several meetings thanks where he doesnt say that trump said the most incriminating thing. The Oval Office Meeting, he doesnt say that trump came out and said, make sure the documents are the the the the Business Records are false if. This is the argument, this is something prosecutors do all the time, is they say if he was cooking up a story, he cook up a better story. Now, its not a perfect argument because you actually want a better story, but that does, i think helped cohens credibility. The fact that some of these exchanges are suggestive of, of trumps guilt, but not conclusive proof. And i think it also lins to that argument that offense might make a look. Jury, the prosecutors asked that they wish they could have made them a better liar. Thats not thats not where you want to walk walk into it. So i agree with you on the sort of the backandforth that its gameplay. And i think sometimes were the witness. You have to use a cattle prod a little bit and say, look, youre not the smartest person in the room. Youre going to answer my questions. We can start this out. Were going to have a couple of days at this. And so im going to make you answer my question. Thats what i feel like he was doing at the same time, hes got a walk a line of not creating sympathy. And look like hes going too hard on the witness because thats a dangerous place to be. So hes got a basically let the jury say, look, this guy, thinks hes smarter than me. Ive got to rein him in some and then get his questions like that. Was so comfortable acknowledging his lies that hes told before when the prosecution was questioning obviously, he knew generally where they were going, what they were going to ask because theyd asked it to him before they werent asking questions. They know the answer to. But he was willing to say dig purpose statement and youd say yes, that was a lie. Theyd asked him about something that he said publicly, he would say yes, that was a lie. What i told wolf blitzer in that interview when it was todd blanche, he seemed to be caged year and in those moments its not willing to acknowledge it because he seemed to be fearful. I mean, hes an attorney. He was before he was disbarred, if fearful that todd blanche was going to try to get him in a trap and that seemed to change the longer he was on the stand. But at the beginning, i mean, he wouldnt even acknowledge a lie was a lie at first, he was saying it was an inaccuracy of what he told special counsel robert mueller, obviously was alive is deceptive. And then he later did acknowledge it was alive he got better, but i will say though, but the Michael Cohen that weve all seen on television and the Michael Coleman weve heard so much. Michael cohen has showed up today, did seem like a distinctly different person than we all expected. So i think that discussion we had earlier is important. Putting a witness in contexts and yes, hes not a perfect witness, but i think if we all guessed a few weeks out, what would be talking about the first day of the crossexamination of Michael Cohen . I dont think we would be parsing out necessarily the word by word his responses in the same way, i think we would have thought of crossexaminati on would have taught him the pieces that would have shown this guy cant be trusted. And now here we are saying like, well, perhaps he should have just said yes faster. So i do think if im prosecution, that makes me feel pretty good tonight. John, you have another part of the transcript. Well, look, money was a big part of this and there was the whole exchange about merch that cohen was selling on his this podcast. But also how well Michael Cohen has done on the books that hes written. Two of them about donald trump, at least tangentially, if not directly, blanche asieh, how much money have you made from revenge . One of the books that Michael Cohen has written, i dont know exactly, but i would say around 400,000 in knowing that in the first two months or so disloyal, thats the other book made around 2 million combining the two books, how much more did disloyal make after the 2 million that it made in the first couple of months cohen answer is maybe another million so blanche asked you made im not expecting you to be exact. You made about 3. 4 million from those two books. Is that fifth . Air cohen says over the fouryear period, bland says, yes. Cohen says it is. Yes, sir. So 3. 4 million, theres a lot of money. Bravo. Bravo to Michael Cohen. Im doing something wrong with my books. That you should go on for donald, i end up in prison congress, i guess. I guess. I guess all in all its maybe not worth it government, right but thats basically try the financial point. I think came through pretty strongly, which is this is Michael Cohens livelihood. This is what he does does he profits directly off this end . I think theres a fair argument. He has a direct financial stake in the verdict because what happens if its a guilty verdict . Michael cole will do a tour. Ill probably have a heavier market for his book if its a hung jury or not guilty, watch how quickly the bottom falls out of the Michael Cohen trashing donald trump market. So hes got, hes got it goes to his bias has credibility a lot of money to for a book, its a lot of money. Michael, do you think the jury is going to register that or use anything thats looked around to every reporter in the room who had written a book and yuri notice all im going i mean, how do you think that plays with the jury . I mean, i think they absolutely look at that is just another reason that kassem some paul of question over his testimony in a statement. I mean, does he have another reason another motive to Say Something different and he does seem to be i mean, i called him a griffindor in earlier, but he does seem to be profiteering off of this whole feud. And so now we know his property and off the right in the books and i just dont i mean, i think the jury theyre in there because they dont have these sort of Preconceived Notions, at least we hope thats why they were selected to be on this jury. That they dont have Preconceived Notions about people. So when theyre here, thats theyre listening to somebody so yeah, i had all these problems. I did all this and ive made 3. 2 off saying these nasty things about the defendant and then does call his credibility and his testimony. The question i think it does. Now, one other thing that todd blanche asked Michael Cohen about that i was interested in was he asked about all of his meetings with the da off the das office, generally, even before alvin bragg was the District Attorney here in manhattan. And he also asked, have you ever met directly with alvin bragg and Michael Cohen said, no, ive actually never met him, which i was told isnt unfamiliar. Alvin bragg doesnt typically meet with witnesses. Youd only meets with victims, but i dont know where todd blanche was going with that line of questioning. Had he said yes. Yeah. I would keep alvin bragg separated from any witnesses, especially Michael Cohen, by physical force, if necessary. I think that just and youre right. That part of the cross exam sort of fell flat for me. I think he was just trying to say youre so eager to please the dau are begging them to come in. You been trying to cooperate with them for months and months. Youve been hoping to get him indicted for a long time, which culminates and now youre hoping it gets in prison. I think it just goes more to the vendetta theory, but i agree it fell flat in the way it came through to me. And i do wonder whether its guided by the client or i mean, so much of Donald Trumps framing of this case has been the judge, the de right. Its the folks at the top that are leading the charge and i do wonder times whether some of that hasnt affected how blanche is thinking about his crossexamination because thats where i thought he was going. Its idea that alvin bragg is directly involved. You really are meeting with the folks at the top of the chain here. And i think a completely filled ill fat number min. Thanks so much. Appreciate coming up next perspective from a retired judge on todays crossexamination, Michael Cohen, also in judge merchans reigning in some of those questions every piece of evidence tells a story how would really happy jesse l. Martin, sundays at nine on cnn batman does it like a snack wonderful pistachios get cracking. You know, i spent a lot of time thinking about dirt as three in the morning and he china, what people dont know, is that not all dirt is the same. You need dirt with the right kind of nutrients. Look at this new organic soil from miracle grow, everybody should have it, it worked great for us. This is as good as gold in any garden. If people only knew that it really is about the dirt your dirt nerd huge turret nerd im proud of it its just your mother and i went different things, which is why we got sling tv so we can watch live and free tv on one app thats right thing is really keeping his family together. You have no idea . 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Only four questions in terrain in the line of questioning after it started off, ten sleigh with an expletive joining us now with more on that Balancing Act to keep things in line. Someone whos known, judge merchan from one 15 years, former new york judge joel kahn visor. So what do you make of what happened there . With the first crossexamination question leading to an objection and a sidebar well, crossexamination is the Beating Heart of the adversarial process so as a judge, youre going to take a step back and let the lawyers do what they do. If they ask an absolutely irrelevant question or something that is just beyond the pale its your responsibility to stop it, whether its question one, question, for question 400, and that is precisely what judge merchan did. So when a lawyer says to a witness on the stand, you said unkind things about me theres no relevance to that. The flip side of that is with respect to any witness who who has a bias toward the defendant in the case. That is fair game bias has never collateral. You can always ask those questions, but quite frankly, who cares what he thinks about the lawyer. But is thats how the lawyer wants to start off. Like what . Whats the harm in starting off that way to the defense . I mean, why would the judge intervened . The judge can just because its irrelevant, it doesnt matter. Its not something the jury could consider. So if they cant consider it, you shouldnt be able to ask the question. It will abomb throw something along those lines, fire throw. I dont know what you call it, but it was just something there you go. Thank you. Molotov cocktail. He wanted to throw it and he knew he was going to get that sustained. Objection. Hundred percent. I really hundred percent. What did you think of the second the second question was todd blanche was trying to go to the fact that Michael Cohen recently had said its crazy statements. Michael cohen said he said the media is going to do facial recognition on the jury and track you down. Camp out on your lords. Blanche started to go down that line. There was another objection and the judge upheld that. Would you have upheld would you sustain that objection . Probably. I dont know what it does other than to put your jury on edge, which is the last thing you want as the charge you trying to keep them as a as a cohesive unit for as long as you can, it doesnt it doesnt get it doesnt prove anything in this case. How about if the Defense Argument is just hes unhinged. He says wild, ridiculous irresponsible thing. Is that a fair line of cross . Then it could be if he makes that argument, i would probably choose a different question to go to figure out whether or not were going down an unhedged path and then try again. You see, judge, you see what im saying and i wanted now ask that question, then maybe judge, what do you make of trumps allies that we saw inside the white house today. Obviously, hes allowed are inside the courthouse. Hes allowed to bring whoever he would like with him. But jd vance and doug burgum, both in moments outside the courthouse this week, attacks the judge, but also his daughter, which is precisely what led the judge. To expand the gag order here, ive mentioned its obviously difficult. I mean, they both said that theyve made the statements that they were here on their own. I mentioned its difficult for the judge to prove in the gag order that trump had instructed them to make those statements which it prevents them from doing. Well, first of all, it is a public courtroom so they can come and they can talk and they do have First Amendment rights which of course weve sent on the show many times. First amendment rights are fundamental, but theyre not absolute, but certainly they can say what they want. But if you look back at the at the gag order judge merchan upheld when when donald trump posted some other things people, other comments from other people, someone from fox news named jesse. I think they put on the judge said, you know what that is a violation of the gag order because you are accepting it, you are putting it out there. Youre giving your imprimatur and thats going to be a violation of the gag order. So i think is a similar analysis here because look, all of a sudden, everyone didnt just the send on the courthouse. Theres some conversations. I i i pretty much guaranteed trump didnt call up and say, come on down and say these things. But someone probably did so is it a violation of the gag order . Only if the people can prove and its their burden that trump had something to do with. But it is pretty curious and troubling that everything these upstanding statesman said was precisely with the defendant has tried to get out and is unable to get out because of the gag order, judge, let me ask you a question about the jury. Were now a month into this trial and there hasnt been a single alternate brought in. It. All 12 are still intact. That strikes me in my new york experience as pretty unusual in a trial of this length and does that tell you anything about the jury in this case . Well, does it tell me anything if i was able to tell what jurors were thinking or doing, you know, i i would i be a rich woman, i guess you never really know, but i agree with you completely. It is unusual its been my experience that in every criminal case, whether its a misdemeanor, thats being tried homicide or this very significant press worthy case with a former president , the United States there are always issues whether its with the jury, whether its with a gag order, whether its with people in the audience, whether its gang affiliated, theres always something but it is incredibly surprising that every juror is still involved. No ones late, no one had an emergency, no one has a root canal i agree with you one month into it and its surprising what does it tell me . It tells me either theyre wonderfully upstanding civic minded people, or its just completely unusual and coincidental. Or they really want to be there or any, any version of all of those thats what it tells me. Nobody wants out. Because if you want out, you can get out on this. I mean, if a juror came in one day and said, i went into my social media feed and i saw something i probably wasnt supposed to see and its taped to my view of the case. I mean, anyone could could have asked out and probably gotten out of this case. Ive done cases less highprofile. This. Weve gone three for alternate steam. Sure. Here we are not a single one, so i think its a good indicator, just that the jury is focused and doing its job. Yeah. Well, and heres the hypothesis i would imagine a jury this committed to doing their job doesnt want to hang, doesnt want to come back and say, well, we just couldnt do our job i would think this is a jury thats going to try hard to reach a verdict in this case, is that is that a possible theory . Possible. I would like to think that too, but you could have two camps that are entrenched and theyre not speaking about the case. They are told at the beginning in the middle and therell be told again, you may not discuss this case so theyre talking about lunch or theyre talking about the weather, or theyre talking about you know, what their coop board is doing. I dont know, but theyre not talking about the case. So you dont really know where anyone is and they wont unless and until they go back there, theyve been charged. Theyve heard all the arguments and they start their deliberations and then then well know overall, are you surprised at all by the pace of things by how this entire case has been handled. I am i am surprised how smoothly its gone. And quite frankly, the only thing that gone off the rails is the defendant who has goes before the microphone says whatever he wants, talks about his Constitutional Rights being violated my hes wrong. Hes wrong every time he says it. 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I learned flats on capitol hill the prosecution says Michael Cohen will be its final witness, prompting this question from judge merchan today to team trump, do you have any indication whether your client is going to testify Donald Trumps lawyer, todd blanche said no. Were sound follows up with no determination yet and her heard another no, not surprising since trumps really been all over the map i would have no problem testified. I didnt do anything wrong im testifying. I tell the truth. I mean, all i can do is tell the truth and the truth is that theres no case they have no case. Well, if its necessary well, im not allowed to testify i can testify, that the gag orders not for testify seeing that hes not going to ask again legal and im not a legal annelise but i can tell you that this legal analyst, norm eisen, was also inside the courtroom today. He once investigated trump as counsel to House Democrats in the first impeachment is litigated. Cases involve me, trump previously is also the author of trying trump, a guide to his first election interference, criminal trial. Norm. Do you think trump will testify, anderson, i hope youre not going to replace me as a cnn legal analyst because you hit the nail on the head. There no. No, no . Way that he is going to testify at his lawyers wont allow it. Of course he is known to override his lawyers. It would be suicide for him to do that it not only would harm him in the case in chief, or at least they have an argument they can make in my view, the prosecution just cleared the proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt hurdle with cohens testimony solidified it with cohens very solid Performance Today on cross but on sentencing, if trump is found guilty, if the judge believes that he got on the stand and lied to him and his jurors. It virtually assures a sentence of incarceration. So i think that even trump is not foolish enough to make that decision i know you love a good legal phrase. Explain how the prosecution was drawing the sting today yes. My i write a cnn trial diary for every day of trial and today was about drawing in this thing. Its a trial lawyer term elie did it often with some of his more dubious witness, is that he had to put on as a prosecutor its fronting all of the bad news so that the jury doesnt here the negatives that Michael Cohen lie, that hes pled guilty to nine felonies, that one of those felonies was for perjury, which getting all the stuff out there and they did a very sophisticated job Susan Hoffinger learning from her misadventures on the storm hey daniels direct was very adept and it actually was sophisticated. She planted a number of seeds that will only flourish when we come back on thursday on all of the main leinz that vectors attack norm. Let me ask you about that because, okay, its good to draw the sting think its good to front the bad news. But what about the bad news . I mean, what about the fact that hes made 3. 4 million off of trump hating. What about the fact that he has said he wants this jury to convict . I mean, whats the answer to that . I have found mostly in my life as a Defense Lawyer before my foray into prosecuting donald trump, that if a witness is honest on the stand, honest with the jury, if they fess up to what they did before, if they Breast Remorse for what they did before. If they have a plausible redemption narrative and if theyre likable, that juries will accept them and i thought that cohen did all of that. And indeed he has one advantage over some of the clients who ive represented, some of the cooperators and many who cooperate hes not working off time. Hes out so in that respect, hes situating what you mean by working off time very often the cooperator will be arriving from prisons, slapped in a suit and a top hi to testify. But the Vare Freedom Depends on how well they do in cooperating with the prosecution. Thats not the case for Michael Cohen. So thats an advantage. And i saw something very interesting today. Its the first time that ive noticed that in this trial again and again, Susan Hoffinger was trying to get cohen to talk to the jury and he started talking to the jury several times today, they put down their Writing Instruments and they just listened to him. And it felt to me like a conversation youd never know where at least constantly reminding me you cant really the minds of the jury. I did bring my Jury Consultant with me which i havent common with travel, susan susan necheles, i brought her one day because i wanted her insights on what this jury was thinking, but i do think that Michael Cohen had a little bit of a bond that was established over his examination with the jury. That is very dangerous for donald trump. Todd blanche had to knock cohen afia had one shot at a First Impression as my mother always said, you only get one chance at a First Impression. He blew it what did your jury and consultants say to you she said that she did not think we were gonna get a hung jury in this Case My Very First Cnn Trial Diary was about trump strategy one angry juror, why she climbs you think hung juries are very uncommon, very small percentage of trials turnout in hung juries. And she, theres certain telltale signs when you have an angry or an alienated juror or you look for the jury michael knows this, you look for one of the members of the jury smiled el it persistently smile at the defendant or wink or show some tail coming in and out over hostilely who prosecution. She watched all day long. She didnt see any of it how would you Defense Lawyer extrordinary have opened your crossexamination of Michael Cohen . I would have hammered him on his perjury and i would have gone for the jugular on the some of the bad answers on crossexamination, nobody says, oh the Clarence Darrow of our time, alina habba but alina habba did get some tricky answers from Michael Cohen. I would have gone for the jugular right back for that having to do with the most sensitive issues for him, he pled guilty. But we saw today that cohen would have been ready for even that that was one of the things that Susan Hoffinger drew. He had a good answer about whether he was honest when he made his initial blei, he said he pled guilty. So he told the judge he was guilty and he said, since, you know, i wasnt telling the truth to that, judge, but he explains he doesnt deny the facts he was coerced by the Southern District and threat of prosecuting his wife to plead to crimes that he didnt commit. One of the most distinguished judges of the Southern District, judge ray cough as a whole book why the innocent plead guilty and the guilty go free. That was what michael explain today. I thought it was very very plausible. One of the most contested issues in this case is one of the lowest profile issues which is the Business Records himself do themselves, do you think cohen helped present the jury within explanation of how trump himself was responsible for creating the false Business Records he did. He took us through the knows that Allen Weisselberg made of the gross step scheme. And then he put trump in two meetings, one with him and weisselberg in trump tower another in the white house, buying into that scheme, if you believe Michael Cohen, i think the jury does proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that donald trump falsified those records, normalize and thank you. Greg saying a great account of what happened today. Quick programming note this friday with the Hush Money Trial in recessed or miss a three 60 special my interview with karen mcdougal, i talked to her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with the former president s something he denies since the only tv interview, shes ever done, watch the interview this friday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. The news continuous including cnn as cover to the trump Hush Money Trial rafter break when the competition is a nuclear competition, spying is extraordinarily important for russia as were trying to spy on us we were spying on them its very difficult to determine whom you can trust. I was studying everything got Out Of Control this is a war, but secret was secrets and spice, a nuclear game premier sunday, june 2, that ten on see it kinda riva support your brain health. Mary janet, hey, eddie, know, fraser, franck. Franck, bread. How are you . 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