From this is roger coming the Reagan Institute in washington, d. C. Welcome and our guest today is congresswoman liz cheney. Thank you so much for joining the show. Rep. Cheney great to be with you as always. Always happy to participate in any of these events. Host we appreciate that. No good deed goes unpunished. Now, we have you on the podcast. We greatly appreciate it. A lot to cover today. So much is going on. Here in washington, d. C. And across the country. Just for our listeners, many people know you because you are the loan congresswoman from this day of wyoming. The daughter of a Vice President s. And going in and out of washington certainly dates back further than when your father became Vice President. Of course, he was the chief of staff during the Ford Administration and then like you served in the congress. What has that been like, almost a lifetime of coming in and out of washington with Public Office , either you or a Family Member and then going back outside the beltway . Rep. Cheney i feel it has been an i feel incredibly blessed in this way to grow up. And to have had the opportunity to see both worlds. Many of myly, earliest memories have to do with my mom and dad and their public service. When my dad was chief of staff for president board back in the early 1970s, my sister and i were young. He would take us down to the white house on saturday morning to have breakfast saturday withngs to have breakfast him because as you can imagine come his schedule was very busy. We would sit on the floor of his office in the west wing. At that time, the very hightech nature of the tools that the chief of staff had at the ready televisions. Iple i can remember mary and i being so impressed that there was a wall with like four televisions on it so you could watch cartoons on every network simultaneously. Host cartoons going on all at once. Rep. Cheney i feel that we changed them all to cartoons. Those were the days when you could only watch cartoons on saturday mornings. Host being a kid in washington. The white house was the venue and then the congress as the venue. N after your father left after the Ford Administration and during the reagan years he was like you and the leadership of the republican conference. Was that a fun place to be as well . Rep. Cheney that was really the first taste that i had we campaigned across wyoming as a family. Knocking on doors and handing out buttons learning what it means to be a part of the political process. In the middle of the first campaign, my dad had his first heart attack. Time whena period of we were not sure if he would continue to run and my death and my mom took over. We campaigned for her. It was a wonderful way to understand how politics works in our country. Host to see your mom campaign as your father was recovering, that is wellknown but seeing a woman in that role was that kind of a moment where in your mind you were like yes, im going to do that . Rep. Cheney it is interesting. Mary and i both were blessed to grow up with parents for whom the issue of our gender never even occurred to me, im sure to marry, that that would be an obstacle. Of anything we wanted to do. The issue was not even discussed. Growing up, my mother was writing and teaching. One of the first things i read was an article she wrote about elizabeth blackwell, the first woman doctor in the United States. For us, we knew that if we were willing to work hard enough that we should not be denied opportunities because of our gender. Host you took it as a matter of course. Rep. Cheney exactly. Thatd not occur to us being a woman would be an obstacle. And i think we were all just proveed to work hard, and ourselves. And we grew up knowing how important it was to fight for what is right. Host you really did straddle interims of the world of termscs and policy in of the world of politics and policy. On, he became secretary of defense and then Vice President s. You served in the bush 43 administration and the state department. How do you go from looking at things in politics as a family versus working at foggy bottom . Rep. Cheney first of all, for us, the politics and policy have always in intertwined. When we would sit around the dinner table as kids the discussions were usually about what was happening in the world then. Politics is a very important way to make sure that you can get the right policies in place and the right people elected to do that. Ive always seen those as really intertwined. Ive also been really interested in and focused on the middle east. Inething i became interested for the first time when i was about 10 years old or 11 urals or 11 years old reading about king ted in king tut in history class. And working on business deals in the middle east and then when i went into the state department, it was actually my second time into the state department. Under bush 41was working on h programs to former soviet union and eastern europe, right when the wall came down and the czechary republic. They were all opening up. Host you mentioned before that for you, it was a matter of course that as a woman you could would pursue it, elected office was reachable and doable. Now, we are looking at an. Lection here in a few months one of the areas of focus in your role as chair of the republican conference is thinking about getting republicans elected in november. In particular getting women elected. Elisecolleague, a least upo stepanek has been focused on that. , in yourer of course mind, this has not played out. Give me your perspective on why that is the case and number two, your thoughts about changing that number. Rep. Cheney first of all, the number is way too low. We have to do what we can to get more republican women elected. Secondly, it is not an accident that the number is so low. Speaker pelosi was really effective at targeting our women particularly if you look across california and the kinds of tactics the democrats have put in place. Things like ballot harvesting and others that have really particularly helped to ensure in some places i think unfairly that our women and men candidates have been beaten. Host for those that may not be familiar with the nomenclature of elections, what is that reference . Rep. Cheney as an example, young kim running in california she won the election but as the absentee ballots came in and ballot harvesting refers to an attack that the democrats have used extensively in california whoe they have volunteers go around and collect absentee ballots. Thatmake sure that people may not know that they could vote even if frankly they are not here legally or really qualified to vote, they help get those people ballots. They ensure anyone that can get access to an absentee ballot votes and then they harvest those ballots. They collect them. We believe that you should only be able to vote if you are legally all of five to vote. One thing that is really important we think is to clean up the voter registry. Optimistic that the number of elected women in the Republican House will increase this election cycle . Rep. Cheney i am. We have a tremendous number of wellqualified candidates across the board. I think it is important that we not just elect women because we needome women fewer of those kinds of members of congress. They have views that are dangerous. I think we need to encourage women to jump and. Thated to encourage people may be sitting back thinking they dont have the experience or expertise to take the lead. Host thinking about republicans and Electoral Prospects and some of the challenges include young people. What are your thoughts about getting that group of americans, the 18 the 1829yearold to support and vote for republicans and agree with the outlook of a liz cheney . Rep. Cheney a lot of it has to do with the things that Ronald Reagan spoke out about and stood for. Thatwe need to make sure all people can prosper is equality. We need people to understand that the fight against socialism is a fight that goes fundamentally to whether we can exercise the individual rights that our constitution guarantees. I think reagan, thatcher also were so important historically but so important at laying out the terms of that debate and in explaining to people what happens when nations adopt socialism. Unfortunately today, i think too many young people are attracted to the idea of socialism. Too many young people view that wayomehow a more equitable to organize society when in fact what it does is steel power from steal power from every individual and give it to the federal government. We need people young people to understand that their future and their ability to affect the future and make decisions for themselves and their families ultimately require that we protect freedom. Protecting freedom cannot be done if you are trying to expand government control and impose socialism. Host i want to drill down on that point. One thing that is not well known and perhaps not intuitive is president reagans support amongst those in that same demographic we are discussing. When he left office, that group supported him, by some polls, over 90 . And it is fair to say that he was old by the time he left office. We talk about why that is the case. Part of it is what you just captured. What was he talking about . The study of freedom and having a substantive approach, talking about what is on the mind of a young person and also about their future. Whatwas a key component of he spoke about. It was how president reagan look that individuals but also how he spoke about the country. The you think the republicans that you see do you think the republicans that you see running are focusing both about freedom and also how that ties to the future of a young person . Rep. Cheney i think we need to do more of that. There is a tendency for candidates to think nobody really cares about Foreign Policy or National Security. Institute has done really important polling on these issues. I think that is wrong and i think it is dangerous for candidates to assume that. Our obligation is to ensure that people recognize that we are facing a real choice right now. It is absolutely the case that when you look at the future of the International Global order, either the United States and the nations that defend freedom and believe fundamentally in freedom will determine what that looks like or the communist party, the Chinese Communist party and the leaders of the Chinese Government are going to make that determination. That is absolutely the battle underway right now. And i think young people when they see what is happening and they see the treatment of the uighurs. Those are the things we need to make sure that people understand the fundamental difference between. This really is the situation where there is one power which is totalitarian, communist which will absolutely repress its people and kill them if they disagree with them and the United States of america. We are not perfect. And we are going through right now domestically the kinds of protests you are seeing on issues around race. But our beliefs and defense of freedom are unmatched, unparalleled around the world. Host i want to go back in a moment and drill down on china and the competition not just from the security standpoint. But also, you have been referencing the competition of political ideas. Going onhit on what is at home. I would like to focus on that for a few minutes. Police protests around brutality and racism in this country. Give me your take in terms of george floyd and what it has triggered across the country and how you as a member of congress, willer in the Congress Take that and address it at all in the u. S. Congress. Rep. Cheney first of all, the killing of george floyd was horrific. I think everyone that has seen that video recognizes that it was horrific. One of the signs i have seen at protests that i think is particularly moving is a sign and ive seen several protesters with it when george floyd called out for his mother, he summoned all mothers. I dont think anyone of us that by that. Er is unmoved we cannot live in a society where mothers of lacked children have to worry that because of the color of their skin or their childrens skin when they leave the house, they could be killed by those supposed to protect them. But i also think that it is absolutely wrong for us to say that we will somehow condemn all Police Officers. I think that the moves you have seen in the last 48 hours, to say that we are going to Defund Police are just ludicrous. I think what we will see and what does worry me is that we will see good people decide not to go into law enforced. Good people saying i dont need to put my life on the line every day when this will be the situation where i dont have the resources, the support that i need. Or that i will be tarred by what happened. To say that as a government, what we need to do is encourage transparency. We need to make sure that we are dealing with recruiting issues. There is no way that someone that has had as many complaints against them like that officer did should be on the force at all. Let alone training other officers. Rep. Cheney exactly. And i think that is another place where we need a much stronger mentoring program. There is no question that there is more that we can do. And things that Police Forces around the country want help with and support with. When i see things like some of iraffiti, the attacks watched as your building was being broken into. I saw it as it was happening on the live stream. The windows shattered. The graffiti painted all over the mall and on the world war ii memorial and the riding and the looting and the rioting and the looting that have gone on. This damage to our never hurts this damage to our neighborhoods and communities. Lack owners peoples lives are on the line. We have to come together to stand against that kind of rioting and taking advantage of. Host you were just talking Law Enforcement to you referenced before the Reagan Institute having done surveys. We ask on the question of trusted institutions across the United States and police and Law Enforcement do really well consistently year over year. In our poll, americans said really overwhelmingly, 74 , that they have great or some confidence in police and Law Enforcement. Do you see that degraded at all as a result of this . Theat number go down trust and confidence in police will lower to a point where we have a problem . Rep. Cheney i hope not, certainly, roger. I think a lot of this has to do with us having this conversation in a way that reflects reality. My colleague from minnesota served on the police force for over 20 years and when you talk to him about what is going on in minneapolis and across the country, pete says that the Police Departments that are the most effective are those that have the police with the community. Those that know their community. Those that live in the community and are trying to raise their family. They want security. They want to know the police are there to protect them. They want to know that the stores will not be looted. They know that the retired Police Officer trying to protect a store from being looted and was killed in cold blood. These are the things that all of Society Needs to come together and stand against. It is important for those Police Forces standing with those communities to be recognized as the most effective. And we also have two more effectively share best practices across the Police Forces in the country. Like the mostmost important data is how local communities view their local Law Enforcement or police force. Or an analogy would be if you were graded by the way the country viewed the u. S. Congress, you would not be reelected. However, if you were graded if you were reelected by the way the people in wyoming view you, you would be reelected. This is all going on during covid19. It is every city and locality and state taking their own approach. When you think about the origins and others have really focused on china and in particular how the Chinese Communist party conducted themselves in terms of transparency and making the world aware of what was going to calm. Fatal takingite more than 100,000 americans. Talk a little bit about your take on covid19 and another entry point to discussing china as well. Rep. Cheney yeah, well, i think that first of all there has been a big debate over whether or not the Chinese Communist party knowingly spread the virus. , that question has been answered. As soon as you recognize the fact that they stopped travel from wuhan into the rest of china and they allowed travel from wuhan to the rest of the world, they knew they had transmission from human to human. They knew and that is why theys not the travel into the rest of china. That time theyt allowed travel into the rest of the world, that is the only answer you need. We will continue to look at whether it came from a lab or the wet market, but in terms of culpability, we know the answer. They spread the virus around the world causing economic devastation and 110,000 americans that have been killed. This is devastation at the hands of china re conduct me enough. Rep. Cheney i think the Chinese Government made a clear decision. They knew they had human to human transmission and they knew it would cause economic devastation. Allownew if they did not it to spread to the rest of the world, that the devastation would only impact china. They would rather be in a position where the devastation was spread globally so it was not only affecting china negatively. But it is absolutely a situation where they are culpable. And it is only the latest example and the worst, obviously , the most damaging example of the nature of that regime and its ability and unwillingness to operate as a global nation. Host the World Health Organization an institution that perhaps most americans were not familiar with. You certainly were from your time in congress at the state and at the state department. International organizations have to straddle countries that are competitors and even adversaries. In this case some of their has been a lot of criticism about how the World Health Organization was complicit in terms of the chinese narrative with respect to covid19. President trump has talked about efunding or not funding the World Health Organization. Standpoint,policy should we or should we not engage with multinational institutions like the who when they are complicit with the conduct of the chinese coming as party . The who has i think hugely important work that we expect it to do. Even before you get to the talks of covid, when you about issues related to ebola or hivaids, there are really important things that the who was expected to do. When you look into what has happened with covid, it is not just that they have been pushing the Chinese Communist party storyline but that the storyline has prevented us from being able to stop the spread of the disease. And so, when they were basically pushing out the talking point you saw coming out of china with respect to you dont have to worry about human to human transmission and it is contained and all of the things that the chinese wanted people to think but turned out not to be true, i think that puts the who in a position where the organization that is supposed to be helping to save lives probably took actions that cost lives. To hold ofstates has these International Organizations accountable. They can be very important but i think that for too long what has gone on, anyone that has spent time working at the United Nations as i did when i was at the state department, working with any of these International Organizations, their campy and tends to be a strong antiamerican bias at a number of them. Host the secretariat. The professional workforce that supports the United Nations. Rep. Cheney exactly. Thank goodness we pulled out of the Human Rights Commission at the u. N. But the fact that you have countries like libya on the Human Rights Commission just tells you kind of what a farce these organizations have become. Tens of are getting millions of taxpayer dollars every year. I think that the president has done the right thing in terms of saying that we will no longer continue to provide that kind of Financial Support it organizations are not doing the job that they were intended to do. Bashhave become a forum to america. And in the case of the who, they are costing lives. It is important to track global pandemics so we can Work Together to defeat them but when those organizations become as politicized as they have and that is not an accident. The Chinese Government is working hard and aggressively to see that very thing happened. And i think it is dangerous. Host it is dangerous and it comes down to how do you hold these institutions accountable . How do you hold china accountable for their conduct . You had china passing a National Security law for hong kong. Where takingle of an international agreement, in this case between the United Kingdom and china with respect to hong kong, one country, two systems, allowing hong kong to remain independent and democratic, that has been walked back by almost every experts account amidst this covid pandemic. What is the u. S. Role . You are an advocate of the u. S. Maintaining its leadership role in the world. And with respect to freedom and democracy. Give me your take on what is happening in hong kong. Rep. Cheney i think this is a crucially important issue. I think that the United States is uniquely positioned to be able to lead the nations of the free world. There really is no other country that can do that or that will do that. Theu look at books like jungle goes back by bob kagan. He talks about and i agree with him that it is not an accident that for the last 75 years we have lived through a time of unparalleled peas and prosperity. It is because the nation that is the most powerful on earth was the United States of america which was fundamentally based on the values of the enlightenment and freedom. We are uniquely able to lead the world and we should. We should because it is right and we should because it is necessary for our continued security, freedom, and prosperity. And that idea is being tested. Oday in the United States it is being tested in our political debates going on and it is being tested globally. The government of china would love people to believe that democracy is just too messy. That is their line. It is too messy and too complicated. You really should throw your lot in with us. China is going around the world blackmailing countries to accept infrastructure. Blackmailing countries over five 5g and huawei. Many countries are beginning to understand that is entering into an agreement with the devil. They certainly have been blackmailing countries over medical supplies. Positivee have seen moves now for example from the government of the u. K. Recognizing that if they do allow huawei to play a role with g, it will put at risk our intelligence relationship with them. Bare think covid has laid the true nature of that regime. Recall the poll that we did at the end of last year where almost 70 of americans, 68 of those polled, support the prodemocracy movement in hong kong even if it angers china and that was before covid19. Something i think President Trump would be surprised to hear and those on the other side may not believe. But this view is overwhelming. American support. Maybe they dont support boots on the ground to do that but certainly rhetorically and the things we can do on the economic front and political front, there is a lot of support for. Rep. Cheney i think it is bipartisan. When you think about and when you look at what america has stood for and why, standing with those that are fighting for freedom is really important. To think it goes back famously talked about how much it meant and what a difference it made to him and his fellow Political Prisoners in the gulag when Ronald Reagan spoke about them and about how america was standing up for prisoners of conscious conscience. I think, unfortunately, because we are in an Election Year right now, you see more partisanship around these issues connected to u. S. Policy towards china than you otherwise would. But even before covid, if you had asked me what is an issue , it has bipartisan agreement would have said taking a stronger policy position against china. I think that is something you will find, and now in the aftermath of covid, i would bet if it were not for Speaker Pelosi imposing her way and not participating for partisan reasons in our china task force, you would find strong majorities in both parties. Host this of course is the Task Force Made up of republican members of Congress Looking at the challenges posed by china. Is that right . Rep. Cheney that is right and it is chaired by michael mccaul. On there about 15 of Us Task Force and we are looking at issues ranging from the National Security strategy, what we need to do at the pentagon, what we need to do about economic warfare, cyber security, ideology. Really looking across the board at the relationship with china and what the United States needs to do to ensure that we maintain our supremacy and to ensure that we protect ourselves as well. Host i want to get back to the pentagon and National Security because you are such a strong leader on those subjects but before we do, i would like to close out our discussion on hong kong. I have no doubt that if there is someone listening very focused on what is going on in the country right now, the russian will arise are we really in position . Do we really have moral authority to stand for those in hong kong protesting for freedom when there are Many Americans on protesting. Regarding racism and police brutality. Do we even have a footing to stand on to talk to others, particularly the Chinese Communist party, about their position on freedom and democracy . Rep. Cheney certainly, i think the Chinese Communist party would like to draw an equivalent there. Of the chinesers communist party that have been very active on twitter which i think is interesting and ironic given that certainly nobody in their country can be active on twitter if they wanted to. I dont think you can even get access to twitter for the most part. Toi think they would like draw that parallel. It is completely wrong. Of course, the United States of america throughout its history has gone through. Periods of time when we have improved fundamentally our freedoms applying to everyone. Was firstonstitution adopted, we had slavery in this country, women could not participate and we have made huge strides to help perfect this republic and we will continue to work on that. But we are a society based on freedom and based on the notion that you can publicly assemble come you can criticize your government, and you can speak out. I know the government would like people to think there is some moral equivalence but when they have been killing doctors for speaking out, when they have been silencing political opponents for years, when you look at the death toll, hundreds of millions killed throughout the reign of the chinese, and as party, there is simply no comparison. Throughout the reign of the Chinese Communist party, there is simply no comparison. I always applaud those that send back to those members of the Chinese Government, names of individuals that have in disappeared. Let us start the discussion by talking to the doctors that no longer exist. You probably killed them. But let us talk to some of the people that you disappeared. It is one of the reasons why we passed the legislation to rename the street in front of the embassy after the doctor who was the first to warn the world about covid. Host marching towards a more perfect union. We have a system that allows for that and a bill of rights that allows for that opportunity. Those are a set of points that the communist party could never make. Their system does not allow for it and in fact prevents it. Rep. Cheney and it is important to say that the mere fact they feel they have to pretend that their system is like ours really tells you something about the weakness of their system. They cannot sell their system. They cannot let people actually choose because no one would choose communism or the Chinese Communist party if they actually had a fair vote. They cannot afford that but they do know that that is fundamentally what people want and believe in. They have to pretend that their system has that freedom even though they are very clumsy attempts at what people know is propaganda. Host i could talk to about more couldhan you have i talk to you about this for more time than you have. We will then get to our reagan lightning round. Mentioned the pentagon. We talked about covid. One of the pieces of the covid crisis has been the stimulus that congress has passed and the tremendous amount of spending that the federal government has done to help manage the economic crisis, the economic component of covid19. That has led many to say we have to get our house in order in terms of spending. The last time we went through this was the Great Recession and the need to get our spending together. That is inevitable i think many people believe. Always first on the list of things to be cut and those on the left and right will agree is our defense budget. Do you anticipate that there will be defense cuts in our future regardless of the outcome of the election . Rep. Cheney well i certainly as hard and will fight as possible. I know my colleagues will as well to prevent that. , we arenow, roger already in a situation where the joint chiefs have said repeatedly, we have to have 3 5 real growth in order to carry out our strategy. We are not there. We are flat. And that is actually a reduction. Itsthat is before covid and tremendous impact on the force in terms of having to cancel exercises and other things. We are in a situation where we have to make sure that we dont see those kinds of cuts. Out,s you pointed certainly because of the resources we have had to there iste for covid, absolutely a necessity to look at the debt. I think that is a National Security crisis and challenge. You cannot ever balance the budget on the back of the defense budget. When you see things happening like the announcement that we just had over the weekend that we might that the president might be ordering the withdrawal of forces out of germany i think that is a huge mistake. And this is a moment where we need to be clear with our allies and for our adversaries that we are not going to abandon our allies or the role of the United States has played in the world that has kept us safe and free. The cost of abandoning that role in the world ultimately will be much higher. The cost of in action, if you think about a world in which orna sets the rules or iran korea, the cost of us failing to act now will almost be immeasurable later. I think it is critically important that we not go down that half. Host that we not go down that path. Host our freedom came because we made serious investment in guaranteeing the free flow of goods and the spread of freedom. What is interesting is i think most people would assume that closing bases in germany which reportedly the president plans to do but president obama advocated that as well. Our polling shows that an overwhelming number of supports, i think 65 , maintaining bases overseas because they are the guarantor of freedom and prosperity and the commerce that delivers that. From a political standpoint, as long as there is an affective way to capture that because if they move those bases they are there to engage in Armed Conflict with 100,000 boots on loser. Und, that is a big how do you straddle that line when you talk your can ditch with and other members of congress . Rep. Cheney i think it comes down to the facts. When you are talking about what our forces in afghanistan are needed to do their, we needed to do there, we are talking about preventing terrorists from creating safe havens. Fightt to be able to terrorists elsewhere instead of here in the United States. And i think that is a basic fact about what is necessary in order to continue our counterterrorism and intelligence operations in the middle east. When youre talking about europe and korea, those are partnerships. Where ourplaces forces have been stationed for years. Not because we are at work with europe but because we know we have to determine. The best we know we have to deter. And the best way is to work with our allies to maintain the peace. I think Jean Kirkpatrick and Ronald Reagan, the notion of peace through strength really means something. I think that is a lesson that the rand pauls of the world never seemed to recognize. Relearn we have to do generation after generation. But defending ourselves means we have a military second to none, and that we have the capacity and the will to take action if we are threatened. And that we will do that. And that is how you prevent people from taking action against us. That is how you ensure not having to go to war. People know that if they attack us, threaten our interests, or threaten our allies, we will respond. As we see these moves to paul our forces to pull our forces home and walk away from our alliance is listen, nato is the single most Effective Alliance in all of mankind. In terms of what nato has in terms ofrevent, the freedom that nato has managed to guarantee and it is no wonder that Vladimir Putin would like to see nato diminished. I think it is really important that the United States of america not help him obtain that objective. Host we are going to jump to the lightning round. Great words from congresswoman chaining. Congresswoman cheney. We ask our guests to share their favorite quotes from Ronald Reagan. Favorite speech and or Favorite Book about the 40th president. Over to you. Rep. Cheney there are so many to choose from as you know, roger but my dad and i wrote a book several years ago. Is aeginning of the book Ronald Reagan quote. And so, im going to actually read it because it is an important quote that i want to get right. Host we welcome that here. Rep. Cheney this is from march 23, 1983 when president reagan said it is up to us in our time to choose and choose wisely between the hard but necessary task of preserving peace and freedom and the temptation to ignore our disease and blindly hope for the best all the enemies of freedom grow stronger day by day. And i think that that quote really describes the duty and obligation of the United States of america through all time and particularly today. It is much easier to look the other way. It is much easier to say we wont continue to stand up for freedom around the world but if we do that, it will strengthen the enemies of freedom and puts our own security at risk. Host we will have to leave it there. Thank you so much congresswoman this november, we are going to take back the house, hold the senate and keep the white house. President trump returns to the campaign trail saturday for a rally in tulsa. Watch our live coverage starting at 8 p. M. Eastern on cspan, on demand at www. Cspan. Org or listen on the go with the free cspan radio app. Live tuesday on the cspan networks, Federal Reserve chair broke jerome have Jerome Powell testifies at a Senate Hearing at 10 00 a. M. At 2 30 p. M. , the Senate Judiciary committee holds a hearing on the use of force by