Transcripts For CSPAN Part 1 Supreme Court Nominee Amy Coney Barrett Confirmation Hearing - Day 3 20240712

Unfiltered view of government. Created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Nominee amyourt Coney Barrett was back on capitol hill for a third day in a row to answer another round of questions at her confirmation hearing. This time, Committee Members had up to 20 minutes each to question judge merrick on her judge barrett on her legal philosophies and other issues. Good morning, welcome, judge. Welcome to all my colleagues. It is a long day but i thought a productive day. We have 20 minute rounds and hopefully we can be done in time before dinner tonight and we will plow ahead and have a few breaks along the way. So, a couple observations from yesterday. Theres an opportunity here to thinkinghe nominees to the extent she can share her thoughts without deciding a particular case that comes before her. Senator harris who are respect suggested you were not candid and judge barrett, i could not disagree more. I have been here for a few of these, i have voted for every nominee that has come before the committee. They have one thing in common, all of you are highly qualified, cape will people. I saw that in just a sotomayor and Justice Kagan submitted by president obama. Definitely did not share their legal philosophy, i expected them to be fairly solid votes for the liberal side of the court and generally speaking, they have been, that they have done so honorably. I think they have kept their commitment to be fair and impartial, but we do understand judicial philosophy matters. Theres difference is, i think, everybody in america can get three hours of credit for if the most detailed explanation of a legal philosophy any nominee has provided to the senate and i appreciate that. Senator harris mentioned about how much more candid Justice Ginsburg was. With all due respect, senator harris, i dont agree with that. I think justicee. I think its pretty clear to everybody who has been watching these hearings that you and your family are prolife, that you are a practicing catholic, and to the tenants of your faith but i hope people also understand that you have made a pledge to the committee and to the country at large that you will set aside whatever religious views you have when it comes time to decide the law. There has already been an example in the seventh circuit where you upheld a legislative provision that restricted access to abortion clinics in terms of protesting. Confident that you will judge every american based on their case, not the law of amy. Here is what is important to me. Senator blackburn and ernst are two conservative women on this committee. It is a very give and take society called america, but there is one group in america i think is having a hard time of it and that is conservatives of color. And women conservatives. There is an effort by some in the liberal world to marginalize the contribution because you come out on a different side of an issue. Particularly, abortion. This hearing, to me, is an opportunity to not punch through a glass ceiling, but a reinforced concrete barrier around conservative women. Youre going to shatter that area. I have never been more proud of the nominee than i am of you. You have been candid to this body about who you are and what you believe. Youve been reassuring in your disposition and this is history being made, folks. This is the first time in American History that weve nominated a woman who is unashamedly prolife and embraces her faith without apology and she is going to the court. A seat at the table is waiting on you and it will be a great signal to all young women who share your view of the world that there is a seat at the table for them. This wont be celebrated in most places. Find much hard to commentary about this moment in American History, but in many of our worlds, this will be celebrated. This has been a Long Time Coming and we have arrived. So i want to thank President Trump for giving you the opportunity to showcase your talents. Sotomayorthat justice and kagan were incredibly qualified women of great character, disposition and integrity, and i believe the same about you. So, lets talk a little about yesterday. Obamacare. This hearing has been more about obamacare than it has you. Obamacare is on the ballot. If you want socialized, singlepayer health care, that is on the ballot. Why didnt any of us object to obamacare . Sed on aritten and pas partisan line i think on christmas eve. Most big changes in society have that. Uyin than we were talking about 1 5 of the American Economy and as i said yesterday from a South Carolina point of view, this has not worked out well. We started with five exchanges, we are down to one, you have one choice. Four rural hospitals have closed. Premiums have gone up, not down. And when you look at the formula used by obamacare, i can understand why senator harris likes it the way it is. I can understand why Chuck Schumer likes it the way it is. States get 35 of all obamacare dollars. New york, california, massachusetts. They are 22 of the population. In South Carolina, if you had a per patient formula in a matter where you live, you got the same contribution from the federal government. South carolina would receive almost an additional 1 billion. I dont blame california, new york, and massachusetts for wanting more. People in South Carolina should blame me for accepting that construct. Care, weomes to health all have our different positions, but today is about you. Or nots about whether youre qualified to serve on the highest court in the land. Severability. Can you tell me, again, i know you have been asked 100 times, the doctrine of severability, what does it mean . Push the red button. I think so. No, i cant hear you now. Its not t host there we go. Judge barrett ok. So the doctrine of severability is a doctrine essentially of statutory interpretation and what it means is if you have a statute and the Affordable Care act is obviously a very long statute, if there is one provision within the statute that is unconstitutional, the question is whether that one section can simply be rendered null and excised from the statute, severed, so that the rest of the law stands, or whether that provision is so essential to the statute that it unconstitutionality, once it is pulled out, the whole house of cards collapses. In the presumption is always in favor of severability. It is the question of your intent. Im sorry, go ahead. Chairman graham the main thing is the doctrine of severability has a presumption to save the statute if possible, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham i want every conservative in the nation to listen to what she just said. The doctrine of severability presumes, and its goal is to preserve the statute if that is possible. So from a conservative point of speaking, wely want legislative bodies to make laws, not judges, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham would it be further true that if you can preserve a statute, you try to, to the extent possible . Judge barrett that is true. Chairman graham that is the law, folks. Abortion. Ett chairman graham abortion. Your recent statements by i think, what is the name of the Prolife Group . Judge barrett the st. Joseph county right to live. Chairman graham and you were asked by senator blumenthal whom i respect whether or not their policy positions were illegal, the remember that . Judge barrett i remember him asking me whether i accepted other policy positions on in vitro fertilization and whether it was a rejection of roe. Chairman graham i remember an exchange where they took a statement from that group or some other group, arguing for the criminalization. Remember that . The criminalization of ivf. judge barrett i think so. Chairman graham and here is my problem with that analysis. That was a position taken by a prolife county organization. It is not your job to pass judgment on the thoughts and beliefs of americans, is it . Judge barrett no, it is not. Chairman graham so when they argue that something should be criminal, they have a right to make that argument, right . Judge barrett they do. It also wasnt in the ad that appeared next to the statement chairman graham how do something become criminal in our legal system in america . Judge barrett when a legislative body passes a statute. Chairman graham so here is what i want you to know. Statements by political organizations are not laws. And what we tried to do yesterday was turn a Prolife Group into a legislative body. They tried to get you to rule on their beliefs. I think that is a dangerous thing for americans to be asking a judge to do whether it be on the right or the left. Here is a statement from an organization i dont particularly agree with, and i want you to pass judgment as to whether or not that is legal. The question for you would be if some legislative body tries to criminalize this procedure, that would be subject to litigation, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Inirman graham a case controversy does not arise because you disagree with a statement of a private person or a private room, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham a case in controversy arises when somebody passes a criminal statute, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham then, and only then would you determine the constitutionality of that provision, is that correct . Judge barrett not even then. The statute would have to be enforced against somebody so the prosecutor would have to try to hold someone criminally liable getting ivf, for for example. Chairman graham so it would have to mature. Judge barrett it would take quite a lot of maturation. I just want to note it is not the role of a Supreme Court justice to pass judgment on your opinions. A supremerole of Court Justice in very limited circumstances to pass judgment on laws passed by legislative bodies in other circumstances, regulation, i would suppose. Now, voting. A it appropriate for legislative body to protect the integrity of the ballot box . So, any specific measures that legislative bodies took to protect the integrity of the ballot box could be subject to litigation, subject to challenge. Chairman graham thats right. Develop, the courts will hear cases and controversies arise, right . Judge barrett yes. Chairman graham one of the reasons we dont have an agreement with the houses because they are mandating ballot harvesting. As a national policy. Pe for fraud, righ we have seen evidence of ballots being dropped in digits. I think there will be an effort, i hope, to protect the integrity of the ballot and also to ensure easy voting. Idle think they are contrary goals for the nation. Now, when it comes to being on the court itself, and collaborating with other members of the court, what has your experience been in the seventh circuit level . How has that played out . We allarrett collaborate and had wonderful interactions with every single one of my colleagues. Chairman graham do you think you have the capability to fit in at the Supreme Court . Judge barrett i hope so. Chairman graham we talk a lot about laws, legalizing samesex marriage, what is the name of the case . Judge barrett obergefell. Chairman graham if anybody tried to change that precedent, one of the things you look at is the reliance interest that people have formed around that piece of legislation. Judge barrett yes. Chairman graham same with casey and roe . Judge barrett yes. Chairman graham so reaching a decision that the case was wrongly decided doesnt end of the debate in terms of whether or not it should be repealed, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham and there is a very rigorous process in place to determine precedent. Judge barrett many factors, reliance being one. Chairman graham is there any constitutional right to a polygamist relationship . Judge barrett um, lets see. That might be a question that could be litigated. Polygamy, obviously, in many places, is illegal now but that could be an issue somebody might litigate before the court at some point. Chairman graham if somebody made the argument is possible for three people to love each other genuinely and that would work its way to the court if somebody wanted to make that argument, is that correct . Judge barrett somebody could make that argument. Chairman graham you have been asked a lot about roe v. Wade and casey and one of the differences in brown versus the board of education is there is active litigation regarding roe, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham i think a senator named eight or nine Different Cases that may come up to the court, cases and controversy. And one of the reasons you cant tell us how you would rule is because there is active litigation coming to the court, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Chairman graham and one of the reasons you can say with confidence that you think brown v. Board of education is a super precedent is you are not aware of any effort to go back to the good old days of segregation, is that correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Ive also said in lectures that brown was correct on the original matter, so that is the kind of thing that i felt i could express before the committee. Chairman graham when it comes to heller, there is legislative bodies all over the country passing laws regarding gun ownership, are you aware of that . Chairman graham i am aware of that. Judge barrett when it comes to Citizens United, i think there will be some effort after the selection to maybe revisit that case. The thing that im trying to establish here is that heller, Citizens United, roe, casey, are all actively being litigated because legislative bodies are playing in that arena, is that a fair statement . Judge barrett that is a fair statement. Sen. Graham your point to us is that when it is likely that controversies around the holding of a particular case are going to come to the court, theres only so much you can tell us about what you may or may not do. Judge barrett absolutely. Wadegraham roe v. Compared to brown v. Board of education is not super precedent. Judge barrett not super precedent as i was using that term in the article that of them referred to. Sen. Graham let me tell you from a commonsense point of the white is not super precedent. I have legislation, 14 states have passed a law that im trying to get past that here that in the fifth month of the, 20 weeks, an unborn child is capable of feeling pain. Im making the argument there is a compelling state interest to protect that unborn child from that very painful death abortion. Called abortion. Only seven nations on the entire planet allow abortion on demand in the fifth month. That is a political exercise we are going through. 14 states have passed a version of what ive just described. That will be coming to the court i imagine in the future. Listen tois that we both sides of the argument if it gets to you. Judge barrett i will. Sen. Graham thank you. Can say, i have met a lot of people, their impressive people. One of the highlights of my time on the committee is to get to meet incredibly talented, smart, squared away people. Righte roberts sat before you and did not have a note. A lot of people on my side were up to that with him about this or that. I do know this, that he is doing what he thinks is best for the court and for the country. Justices sotomayor and taking, delightful people, incredibly, wickedly smart. Justice kagan had a biting sense of humor and they are on the court because they should be. They are on the court because they live lives worthy of being on the court. They are on the court because there are some of the smartest people in the land about the law. They are on the court because they have lived incredibly productive and meaningful lives. Justice gorsuch and kavanaugh are both on the court for the same reasons. You, you are every bit in their league. View, this is exactly where you should be going to the Supreme Court. The United States of america will benefit from your participation at the Supreme Court. You will have Life Experiences that will round out the court. And you are going to inspire a lot of young women just like Justice Ginsburg did, just like justices sotomayor and Justice Kagan did, and the young women that youre going to inspire dont have a whole lot of role inels they can point to terms of the media world in which we live in uplifting them. Thats about to change. Colleagues, iic understand where youre coming from, i understand what you want the court to do. You want the court to do things differently than we do. I dont question your motives and i want to thank you for conducting this hearing and a way that has been respectful, that has been challenging, and the process will be moving forward here. From the committees point of view, i think we are on track to do it in a way that hopefully, people will say even though you you are notrongly, that disagreeable. Senator feinstein. Feinstein judge, i must say im delighted to see your family here again and i hope they feel that very special sense of pride in you. Im sure they do. Know, i was you thinking of my children and grandchildren and this is really a onceinalifetime occasion. So, i hope they find it very special in their lives. Judge barrett thank you, senator. Sen. Feinstein youre welcome. Yesterday, you spoke of texas, the current case seeking to strike down the Affordable Care act. Think, that the issue before the court is severability. Meaning where the court could still uphold the Affordable Care act if it rules that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. And you said yesterday this question was not before the court. As i understand this, chief Justice Roberts and the majority did involve the issue of severability in a case known as the nfib, National Federation of independent businesses. Are the chief justice in the 54 majority that struck down one part of the law, the Medicaid Expansion provision. But allowed the rest of the law to stand because they found it was severable from the portions they struck down. Justice scalia dissented from this conclusion, stated that the unconstitutionality of the individual mandate and the Medicaid Expansion requires the invalidation of the Affordable Care acts other provisions. In other words, the justice believed that the law was not severable and the entire law had to be struck down, including provisions protecting people with preexisting conditions. You have been close to the justices philosophy and in these hearings, youve also said that this doesnt mean you would redraw the same conclusions. Today howplain to us you would disagree or agree with Justice Scalias views of severability in that nfib, National Federation of independent Business Case . Idge barrett what i think can say without expressing disagreement or agreement for the reasons ive said yesterday, not being able to great , first of all, the majority holding, as he recognized, was that even though the medicaid provision was unconstitutional, it was severable. Justice scalia expressed his view in dissent. View,y Justice Scalias the issue would be different in california versus texas. For two reasons. Ought toice scalia provisions of the constitution were unconstitutional, so if you pictured severability being like pull oneame, if you out, can you pull it out while it all stands . Scalia, his view was that if you pull bows two provisions out, could it still stand . Here we are talking about one. Also, congress has amended the statute since an of iv nfib. California versus texas involves a different provision because of the zeroing out that was done by amendment. So that is have a two cases present slightly different issues. Sen. Feinstein what do you think of all that . Judge barrett what do i think of severability . Sen. Feinstein judge barrett in that instance. I think the doctrine of severability as it has been described by the court serves a valuable function of trying not to undo your work when you wouldnt want a court to undo your work. Severability strives to look at say,tue as a whole and what congress had considered this provision so vital that pulling it out, congress would want the statute anymore . It is designed to effectuate your instance. Severability is designed to say well, does Congress Still want the statute to stand even with this provision gone . Would Congress Still passed the same statute without it . I think insofar as it tries to effectuate congress would have wanted its support in Congress Working handinhand. Sen. Feinstein thank you, that is quite a definition, im really impressed. Thank you. Some have argued that the Medicare Program is , it is antional unconstitutional exercise in congressional ending power. They believe that the spending power does not exist at all. In talking about medicare and mikel security, professor of the university of san diego law wrote this. It is worth remembering that these programs would never have taken their pernicious forms if the constitutions original meaning had been followed in the first place. Originalistswith who say that the Medicare Program is unconstitutional, and if so, why . Judge barrett im not familiar with that article so i dont know what reasoning advances for claiming that the sending power as exercised in things like the medicaid provision being unconstitutional. And feinstein it is in law liberty, july 23, 2015. But the question is, do you agree with originalist who say that the Medicare Program is unconstitutional . Judge barrett well, lets see. Cant answer that question in the abstract because as we talked about, no forecast, no previews. I also dont know what the arguments would be. So i assume the professor lays out a case. But it is not a question ive ever considered before but if i did consider it, it would be in the context of an actual case or controversy. Sen. Feinstein it is hard for me to believe that that is a real question, because i think the Medicare Program is really sacrosanct in this country, but let me ask you, last april in the midst of the covid19 pandemic, the Supreme Court prevented wisconsin from implementing it District Court order that would have extended the states deadline for submitting absentee ballots. This would have given voters greater flexibility in casting absentee ballots for wisconsins primary election. Justice ginsburg dissented. She criticized the courts majority for putting its head in the sand with regard to the risks posed by covid19. She emphasized that courts and Election Officials must be able to a brave, rapidly developing Public Health crisis, and she noted that the supreme suggestion that the Current Situation is not substantially different from an ordinary election boggles the mind. Would you agree, and what is your position . Judge barrett senator feinstein, that is obviously a very recent case. In that case, the court had to address the constitutional questions. And so again, it is one of those things that i cant answer both because it would be requiring me to grade and express agreement or disagreement with the Supreme Court opinion, but also it is the kind of case that could come form a closely related either on the seventh circuit in wisconsin is within the seventh circuit distribution, or the Supreme Court. Sen. Feinstein ok, let me try again with something. After President Trump announced your nomination to the Supreme Court, you discussed the judicial philosophy of the late justice antonin scalia. Specifically, you stated his judicial philosophy is mine. During oral arguments in the 2013 case Shelby County v. Holder, Justice Scalia questioned the strong congressional support for reenactment of the Voting Rights act. He argued that the support was not attributable to the fact that we need the Voting Rights act. Rather, he stated that he believes congress reenacted the phenomenon called perpetuation of racial entitlement. This,s your reading of and your understanding of the history of the Voting Rights act . Judge barrett well, when i said that Justice Scalias philosophy is mine, i certainly didnt mean to say that every sentence that came out of Justice Scalias now for every sentence that he wrote was one that i would agree with. When i said Justice Scalias philosophy is mine, too, what i meant was that his jurisprudential approach as we talked about originalism and textualism is the same that i would take. I for the Voting Rights act, think that it was obviously a triumph in the civil rights movement. Well, yourein hted in myhile rig mind, my view is that we always need this. This is the ball work of our democracy. To me, i think it is something that may be somewhat subjective. Do you agree with that . Judge barrett that need is subjective . Sen. Feinstein that i think we do need a Voting Rights act and it is subjective in that sense. Think theett well, i question of how the coverage formula is calculated and the Voting Rights act and the contours of the Voting Rights act, whether Shelby County was rightly decided or not, are all questions on which i cant give an answer because Shelby County has obviously been controversial, it is likely to be really negated, icad, before me on the court. Litigated, it is likely to come up before me on the court. This isnstein i think really important because it shows the basic philosophical bent of an individual. For me, the Voting Rights act is extremely important and it defines our election system to a great extent. Understandfor me to that anyone would want to do away with it. What is your position in that regard . Judge barrett as i understand Shelby County, it said that the coverage formula was outdated from the 1960s for subjecting the particular states requiring them to get preclearance. It is my understanding, and i havent looked at the case in a while, that Everything Else about the Voting Rights act remains intact including its prohibitions on discrimination in elections. Decided which states were subject to preclearance. Sen. Feinstein let me ask you this question, and this is a hard one. Do you agree with Justice Scalias assertion that the Voting Rights act is a perpetuation of racial entitlement . Judge barrett senator feinstein, i dont obviously know what Justice Scalia was thinking when he said that. And any characterization of the a statements act or like that is simply really not something i can opine on. Know, that is tied in, i would think, with the Shelby County question. Sen. Feinstein im not asking for a formal opinion, but we do believe that it is a perpetuation of racial entitlement . Judge barrett i think that goes to the question of whether the coverage formula was outdated and needed to be updated from the 1960s or not. I take that to be the thrust of the disagreement in Shelby County and the position that Justice Scalia was taken. Again, i cant express a view on Shelby County. Sen. Feinstein ok. Let me move onto to workers rights and age discrimination. Case, you joined a majority of the seventh circuit judges and holding that age discrimination in employment does not protect job applicants against Employment Practices that have a disproportionately harmful impact on older applicants. The opinion you joined as i understand it dismissed the claims brought by a 58 euros lawyer who was passed over for a job that was offered to a 29yearold applicant with less experience. Implicationsy the of this decision. Aarp, approximately 35 of the United States population is now 50 years or older. Almost 29 of households are headed by someone near or past retirement age have no savings or pension. Study after study has shown age discrimination remains a significant barrier for Older Workers. An older applicants are more frequently denied job interviews than middleaged applicants. Additionally, older and middleaged women are subjected to more age discrimination than men. The eeoc has found that the Great Recession during president forced Administration Many Older Workers to revive their retirement plans to work longer to recoup drained retirement accounts and lost savings. The question, because i think it is going to be an increasing problem. Understand to be the purpose of age discrimination, of the age discrimination in employments . Judge barrett in clever versus sion, that was a case that we heard as a fullcourt and the question is whether the prohibition on age discrimination covered applicants or only employees. Employees,tute said and so in applicants and an employee. So the majority said that the statute by its turn did not cover the conduct. But i think that is an instance, i talked yesterday quite a bit about whose role it is to update statutes or extend than anything that is an instance in which congress could well address this problem to include applicants in it. Sen. Feinstein so, where would you stand on the general subject matter . Judge barrett well, since i cant impose the law, that would be up to the congress to decide. Different prohibitions offer even more protection. Sen. Feinstein lets talk for a moment. In 2013, you wrote i tend to agree with those who say that a justices duty is to the just moreon and it is legitimate for her to enforce her best understanding of the constitution rather than a precedent she thinks clearly it. Icts with if you are presented with a case where your view of the constitution conflicts with whatme court precedent, would control your decision . Your understanding of the constitution, or precedent . Judge barrett senator feinstein, im really glad that you brought that up because that quote was mentioned a lot yesterday and im happy to have an opportunity to put it in context. Article, i think there has been some misunderstanding perhaps because that sentence, percival, is citing a footnote to both, and originalist scholar and a progressive constitutionalist. The whole article was defending the correct doctrine which, of course, constitutional precedent , weaker than statutory precedent and i mentioned that yesterday. Against claims that we should have no doctrine of stare decis is at all and against claims that completely tied the courts hands. I actually wasnt arguing for i was saying this is how it is, this is how the Supreme Court does it, and that is right. Another might put my perspective and context. I set a new majority cannot impose its vision only with votes. Must, now im paraphrasing myself, it must be very sure that its interpretation of the constitution is the right one and that reliance, interests, etc. Dont counsel in favor of its overruling, paraphrased, and then the next sentence was something to the effect of an uncertainty in that regard councils in favor of preserving the status quo. So that sentence if it is just read alone makes it sound like im arguing for the over all of decisis in general, but that was not the thrust of the article, quite to the contrary. Sen. Feinstein thank you very much. We all welcome the fact that your family is here, it is a beautiful family. Judge barrett thank you. Sen. Graham thank you very much. Senator grassley. Dont start the clock yet. Hes not ready. Bucks, i will start the clock. [laughter] sen. Grassley judge. Sen. Graham start the clock. [laughter] sen. Grassley welcome back. Judge barrett thank you, senator. Sen. Grassley i want to compliment you for doing a very good job answering these questions and all about your decisionmaking process. Youve been forthright, candid, thoughtful. Youve demonstrated a tremendous command of and respect for the law and constitution. That yourwn us judicial method is rigorous but also fair and openminded. Above all, it is clear that you understand the appropriate role of a judge, just what we are looking for, at least, on the side of the aisle. An individual who will interpret the law, not want to make it. You are an outstanding candidate. A couple things before i ask my questions. Many of my colleagues on the other side have tried to get you to tell us how you would rule on a case. Case wasou believe a correctly decided. Or rather you will commit to uphold a specific law. Responded, it is not appropriate for you or any nominee in your position, for any level of the judiciary to make promises or give hints on how you would rule or what you think about a potential issue that may,. That may come up. Judicial independence, those are our political branches accountable to the people. A bedrock principle of our constitutional system. Best, aginsburg said it judge is sworn to decide noartially and can offer guesses or hints because that would show disregard for a particular case. And she also said you cant dissuade distain or display distain for the entire judicial process. You have not that made any promises to anyone about how you might rule on a case. That is because you know that a judicial nominee should never promised votes in exchange for a president s nomination or a senators support. Yesterday andaw to some extent, monday, democrats st rategy continues to be to use scare tactics, distortions and speculation. They are framing you as a real threat to Health Care Coverage and especially protections for existing conditions. This was all a charade. , it because of your comments believe, just from one long review article you wrote, critiquing chief Justice Roberts reasoning. So it is time to get real. This is all just a distraction. This is what we saw monday and tuesday. Democrats want to distract from the fact that they dont really care about obamacare. You heard that since democrats started their president ial primaries probably about two years ago. They want governmentrun medicare for all. Thats what you have heard in the democratic primary. Acachanges they seek to the move America Closer to a singlepayer system where the government provides or subsidizes health care for all americans. Which we know, eventually, leads to government rationing of health care. Distract from to the fact that they just billustered a covid relief that would have protected. Reexisting conditions they, we will see if they will vote for a Covid Recovery bill that leader mcconnell has scheduled for a vote next week. Democrats want to distract from the fact that republicans, yes, republicans have introduced bills to protect americans with preexisting conditions and to bring down drug prices and if we act, they dont have to worry about you doing away with preexisting conditions in some future case down the road. Opportunityen the to finance bipartisan Prescription Drug pricing reduction act, that of the grassleywhitinsville, democrats at schumers command walked away because they wanted electionyear issues. Republicans passed and signed into law bills to end pharmacy e clauses and to end abusive drug tactics that prevent lowercost generic drugs from coming to market. Democrats want to distract from the fact that President Trump and the administration have taken steps to help Lower Health Care costs for americans including finalizing a rule to allow the importation of Prescription Drugs from canada. And proposing a rule to facilitate the purchase of epipensle insulin and for lower income americans. The president signed an. Xecutive order further, i and other republicans have been working with the administration to increase the end drug prices, to step up enforcement of anticompetitive activities, and the prosecution of bad actors in the health care and to improve and expedite Regulatory Approval of drugs to combat covid and other diseases. Here is the bottom line of what we have all heard monday and tuesday. The democrats cry foul over anything that may help americans if it doesnt advance their agenda for medicare for all. And the American People deserve to be reminded of this hearing, what it is all about. It is all about your qualifications to be on the Supreme Court. It is not about health care advocacy. Judge, democrats want to distract from the fact that you are eminently qualified for this position you been nominated for. And they dont like it that you know that the place of the laws, is not to rewrite as you might see fit. Heres the bottom line. Yesterday if it is your agenda to repeal the portable care act. You said absolutely not. You said you have never made a commitment to anyone on the Affordable Care act or on any thing. You have never been asked to make such a commitment and you made very clear you would never make such a commitment. To put some, i want letters in the record from state legislative leaders supporting this nominee. Sen. Graham without objection. Now, you wont get away without asking some questions on something that im very interested in. I would like to discuss a law that i brought up with you when we talked for a short time oneonone. We didnt discuss it at that time. The false claims act. Legislation toed make false claims act and effective tool to combat fraud against federal programs. This law enlisted the help of private citizens to enforce the false claims act. In 2000, the Supreme Court deemed false claims provisions constitutional. As you know, false claims act emerged as the governments primary weapon against fraud. Since we restore the law in 1986, false claims actions have recovered 68 million of taxpayer money fraudulently taken with 50 billion coming from was lowerinitiated action. Congress has remained vigilant to protect the false claims act from attempts to weaken it in the courts. Have you ever written or spoken publicly about the constitutionality of any other provisions of the false claims act and if so, what were the circumstances or the context . Grassley,ett senator i dont recall ever speaking about the false claims act or the constitutionality of the provisions or any other part of the act. I cant think of a time when i have. Judge barrett do you have any preconceived ideas about the false claims act or was lower protection act that would impact your ability to impartially decide any cases involving those issues . Judge barrett i do not. Any case involving that act i would approach with an open mind as with any other. Sen. Grassley some opponents of the false claims act argue that provisions are unconstitutional under article two and three. Are you familiar with these legal arguments and if so, do you have an opinion on them . Well, thoset arent ones that i can express an opinion on because as you say, it has been up for the court. Sen. Grassley another interest of mine that i probably a 87 years of age wont live long enough to see done, but ive discussed cameras in the courtroom and introduced legislation on that over the last 15 years. Its not a very popular subject. Would have to roll over his dead body before they put cameras on the Supreme Court. I can respect that point of view, but i totally disagree. Think that allowing cameras in the courtroom would open courts to the public and bring about a better understanding of the judiciary. For many years, that bill i have been introduced as been called the sunshine in the courtroom act, a bill to give judges the to allow immediate coverage of federal or proceedings. Im also a cosponsor of senator durbins bill to allow cameras in the Supreme Court. I understand that the seventh Circuit Court of appeals were you currently serve adopted procedures to allow requests for video recording of oral arguments as well as the public release of the recordings. Judge barrett that is correct. Sen. Grassley as your court had any problems with these proceedings . What are your views on allowing cameras in the courtroom . If confirmed, would you keep an open mind about allowing cameras in the spring work . Judge barrett i would certainly keep an open mind about allowing cameras in the Supreme Court. Sen. Grassley i always ask court,district circuit Supreme Court this question about International Law. I would like to get your views on how and when you would apply International Law to your decisionmaking process. Is it ever appropriate to cite International Law when interpreting the u. S. Constitution . Judge barrett i would never want to say never because he is certainly possible. Generally speaking, so it has issues with the which foreign law has been applied, and there is a debate about it, is when the court is trying for the lower court is trying to identify what is the nature of a right that is part of the tradition of the people, or that the people, what would people do . In my view of the United States constitution, it is the fundamental law of the American People. I dont think it would be controlled by the laws by other countries because it requests the fundamental commitment that we as an American People have made. Sen. Grassley thank you very much, i reserve my time. Sen. Graham i apologize, senator leahy. Out of sight, out of mind. I apologize. Can you hear me all right . Sen. Graham yes, sir, loud and clear. Incidentally, for those who are watching, to listen to what senator grassley said about oferas in the courtroom, course, i agree with him on that, and he knows ive supported that. Ive also joined a few false. Laim act proponents there arent many areas in a committee were senators have worked together and i would ask that the chairman allow a letter from 10 former federal judges who are opposed to the process of this nomination. The letter of opposition for the people for united way, and 208 women lawyers. Sen. Graham without objection. Somebody has got to hand you those letters, i cant quite reach. From my room here. Barrett, it is good to see you again. Again, i commend your children. Then,re this is passed im sure you feel the same way. It is important that we have these questions. We are getting told that no one could possibly know how you would rule in the latest republicanled case overturning the portable care act. Is that we do know youve criticized chief Justice Roberts opinion. That roberts pushed the aca beyond its plausible means to save the statute. So it seems every time you weighed in on legality of the statute, you come to one conclusion, the Affordable Care act is unconstitutional. Weeks, youvetwo provided this committee, all of us with 1800 pages of your writings and speeches for us to review, and i have. I may have missed something in that, but did you ever write or speak out in defense of the aca . Judge barrett senator leahy, i just wanted to make one correction, wasnt a case about whether the if care act was constitutional or not, that one was purely a question of statutory interpretation. Just to make clear about that. In a radio interview i said that i thought the dissent had the better of the statute of interpretation argument. I have a couple things that maybe might help shed some light on this question. One is that of course in both of those contexts i was speaking as an academic. As i mentioned yesterday, and academic serves a very different function than a judge. And academic did not go through the judicial process, doesnt controversy,sen. Leahy that iy question. The question was did you ever write and speak out in defense of the aca, whether as an academic or as a member of the judiciary . That is a simple question, yes or no . Judge barrett no, i have never had the case to speak on a policy question. Sen. Leahy every time you said it was unconstitutional. Judge barrett sorry, i thought you were done. Court under in the severability standing, in youonality, have not written on the severability of the aca, have you . Judge barrett i have not. Sen. Leahy heres a quote i am sure that you are familiar with, it has been used in the last few days. Throwing out preclearance when it has worked has continued to work to stop discriminatory it is like is throwing away your umbrella away in a rainstorm because you are not getting what. Judge barrett i believe that quote is from a dissent in Shelby County. Sen. Leahy she was talking about and warning about striking down section five of the Voting Rights act. Likey county was almost immediately, after Shelby County came down, the state started making changes. Newtates enacted restrictions on voting. Some of those restrictions had been hernandez. Do you know how many polling places that have arbitrarily been closed across the country since the shelby decision . Judge barrett i do not. Sen. Leahy at least 1600. Decision,the shelby how manyow how many voters were purged from voting rolls . Judge barrett i do not know. Roughly 60 million, that is about 30,000 population of my state. Africanamericans with felonies or four times more likely to be disenfranchised than other americans with penalty convictions. And voters are now seven times more likely to wait in line for black voters than white voters. Because it is a picture of the cobb county georgia. Both of the lines, africanamericans make up the majority. Look at that line. I suspect neither new you nor i have had to wait in line like that to vote. Fact, the press reported that, today, those lines could be 10 hours long. People talked about well, are we giving racial entitlements . This is not entitlements for any americans, this is not entitlement. This is turning our back on democracy, this is saying you cannot vote, or we are going to make it so difficult to vote that you cannot. Texas, which, in has a population many times that of my state has one early voting spot. People have to drive for hours and wait in line for hours to get there. Fact oru accept the acknowledge the fact that communities of color disproportionately face whenictions and obstacles they are casting their ballots . Judge barrett senator, i was not aware of the statistics that you are citing. If it became relevant in any case that was litigated and presented to me i would have an open mind about it. I know that you have spoken, much like former Justice Scalia, who was a friend of mine. But i disagreed with him on many things. He talked about racial impediment. It is not impediments when blacks have to stand in line for 10 hours to vote. And Justice Ginsburg dissented in shelby, she knew what the consequences would be. I only mention that because it is ok for a judge not to close his or her eyes to reality. Week whatd you last would Justice Barrett would do for a president if a president or senator did not follow the despairing court decision, you said he declined. I then asked if the Supreme Court would have the final word as far as the lower courts are concerned, and that surprised me and i can see and it concerned me, and i will tell you why. I asked Justice Gorsuch gorsuch and cavanaugh those questions and they made it clear that a president cannot refuse to comply with a court order and the Supreme Courts word is the final word on the matter. And is what Justice Gorsuch Justice Kavanaugh said. Do you agree that a president must follow a court order and the Supreme Courts word is only final ast far as the lower courts are concerned . Judge barrett i am glad to have the opportunity to clarify from our conversation. First i know that Justice Gorsuch and kavanaugh said no man is above the law, and i agree with that. But i can first with senator lee about federalist 78 that said that courts neither have forced norwell, in other words nor will, in other words we cannot enforce our own judgments, and what i meant in the conversation with you, that as a matter of law the Supreme Court may have the final word, that it lacks control about what happens after that. The Supreme Court and any federal court has no power, force, or will, so it relies on the other branches to react to its judgment accordingly. Sen. Leahy i remember the honor student having lunch with the members of the Supreme Court. Sat with justice hugo black. He talked about brown v. Board of education, and the court knew that that would be a tough case, and what did they do . They had thentil unanimous opinion, because that they knew that the president and the congress would have to enforce their law. So, let me ask you this. Of course the Supreme Court has no army or force, that they have the force of law. Is a president who refuses to comply with a court order a threat to our constitutional system of checks and balances . Judge barrett i think the example of brown is a perfect one in this instance, because the Supreme Court in brown held that segregation violated the equal protection clause, and that was the law. As you know, there was resistance. It was not until the National Guard came in and forced the governor to allow desegregation that it could happen because the Supreme Court could not do so itself. Leahy i understand that, but they made the order. And, if a president refused to a threatould that be to our Constitutional Government . , the barrett as i said Supreme Court cannot control whether or not the president obeys. Abraham lincoln once disobeyed the order during the civil war during a Circuit Court. The court can pronounce the law, that it lacks control on how the political branches respond. Leahy President Trump claims he has an absolute right to pardon himself. Years the Supreme Court has recognized common law principle, nobody can be a judge in their own case. I had to go way back and reread an old case to see that. Agree first, that nobody is above the law, not the president , not you, not me, is that correct . Judge barrett i agree, no one is above the law. Sen. Ai he does leahy does the president have a right to pardon himself for a crime . We saw this after president nixons impeachment. Judge barrett so far as i know that question has not been litigated or arisen. That question may or may not arise, but that is one that calls for legal analysis of what the scope of the pardon power is, because it would be on pot opining on an open question when i have not gone through the process to decide it it is not one that i can offer a view. Sen. Leahy but you will say that nobody is above the law. Find your answers somewhat incompatible, but you have a right to say what you want. Now, you are an originalist. Framersexplain why the included the foreign and domestic and monuments emoulu ments clause. Judge barrett i can speak to viewell expect expected that it is designed to prevent foreign influence in government to fail affairs. Poli see pauly sen. Leahy it is sort of the anticorruption clause in the constitution. Ifge barrett i do not know i would clarify it as an anticorruption clause, i would clarify clarified as i did. It is designed to prevent Foreign Countries from having influence. Leahy i was thinking at the constitutional convention, governor edwards admin randolph Edmund Randolph said that it was to prohibit anyone in office from receiving or holding any emoluments from foreign states, and now we find that 200 companies and foreign governments have patronized Trump Properties at the same time they were getting benefits from him and the administration the first two years of his earned 73 he billion for his properties abroad, and as an originalist, as you are, do you think these companies and foreign governments would have fallen zone ofhe framers concern . Judge barrett the emoluments clause is under litigation, there was a Fourth Circuit case that involves this question. As a matter that is being litigated, it is clear that that is when i cannot express an opinion on, because it could come before me. Leahy i foundn. It interesting what you wrote in and see thatnt, you are willing to depart from it and as a justice, i suppose you can do what you want, but in the june medical services, chief Justice Roberts struck down a louisiana law restricting access to Reproductive Services even aough he had dissented in previous case. He said the legal doctrine this, and in special circumstances to treat cases alike, so having been on the losing side in the first one, he became he took that position and that case. Do you agree that he demonstrated commitment to stare decisis in this case . Judge barrett no justice throughout history has ever maintained the position that overruling a case is never appropriate. As you probably know, there is a Supreme Court case that said that states could criminalize Sexual Conduct between samesex lawrence versus texas overruled the case. Ferguson was president and brown v. Board of education overruled it. The Supreme Court has always said that in some cases, overruling precedent is the right course for the courts to take, but that is not done willynilly. I sen. Leahy i urge you to look at what Justice Roberts said about the opening of the smithsonian about precedent. You,l submit a question to because what restrictions have you seen under executive order 2133 to conduct surveillance activities that have not been authorized by congress, i asked that because senator lee, i, and others have done a lot of legislation on surveillance, and now we question whether that is being ignored. As ahope you will take it serious question and answer it for the committee. Judge barrett thank you. We will make sure that it happens. Sen. Cornyn i would like these letters in my hand to may to be part of the proceedings. Without objection. Sen. Cornyn i would like to wax philosophical and you do not need your notepad. I just think that there has been so much discussion about the role of judges and the role of the political branches. I think it is worth going back to first principles. But most important first principle is in the declaration of independence. It says we hold these truths to be selfevident that all men are created equal, endowed by their creators with certain unaided their creator with unalienable rights, among these life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To secure these rights governments are instituted among men, and here is the one that i want to emphasize deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. You and i talked about consent of the governed as being the foundational foundation of a legitimate government action. You agree with that. Judge barrett i do. Sen. Cornyn does that inform your philosophy when it comes to the role of judges and political branches . Judge barrett it does. Sen. Cornyn i had the privilege of serving on the state court bench for 13 years, so when i came to congress i had never served in the legislature. Eyeopening an experience for me. For example, after one vote on the senate for, dutch floor, after the vote was over, one senator got to the microphone and said now for a little blood is a little legislative history. , but youshocking to me understand what i am getting at, and one reason i appreciate your and Justice Scalias approach to an emphasis on the text rather than legislative history, this is a way for some who lost the vote to try and tilt the scales of justice in their favor by from a legislative history, and then imagine my shock when i served as i do now on the finance committee when we mark up legislation in the finance committee, we do not get to look at legislative text it is kind of surreal. Markup,l it a notional in other words, we end up voting on a notion or concept and somebody in the Councils Office writes up the text. Of then, there is this issue i know in the judiciary in the Legal Profession there has been a big movement for plain language so people can understand clearly that you have to unlearn the lessons you learned in law school, particularly writing on law overviews and the like where you are rewarded for this really impenetrable language, where if you use latin phrases and things like that. But the plane Language Movement in the Legal Profession strikes me as an Important Movement and i yearn for those days when congress can embrace that so we can speak more clearly so people can understand it, and not allocate legislative responsibilities to staff. But i also was struck by the fact that one of the reasons that cases get litigated is because of the failure of the congress to build consensus for legislation. To me, the Affordable Care act is one example. When either side pushes through a partisan piece of legislation, it is not realistic to expect that the fight will be over. It will just move to a different form. It will move to the courts. That is not what happened on things like medicare and social security. Partisanbrought by consensus, in other words members of congress did the hard work to find the consensus so they did not have to hand it off to the judiciary. Unfortunately, i think we have seen the tendency in recent years to do exactly that, where congress has abdicated its figuratively,es, they have pulled the pin on the hand grenade and handed it to the judiciary. Maybe, that is one reason why these judicial confirmation become soave contentious, because people see the judiciary as the ultimate policymaker. And we quoted Justice Scalia talking about the value judgments of justices and judgments versus elective representatives, and they say there is no reason to think that value judgments are any better than those of the citizens that ultimately with whom resides the ultimate legitimacy and course,l power and, of the most fundamental difference between the one you currently hold in the one you will hold on the Supreme Court is the notion of accountability. As a judge, usurper lifetime tenure, correct . You do not have to stand for election or raise money, or consult polls, focus groups . Judge barrett no. Sepa cipro koren how sen. Cornyn how do you consult a case . Judge barrett the reason we have life tenure is to be insulated from the pressure that such things like focus groups or Public Opinions might the pressure that it might apply for a court to decide a case, one way or the other, that is why we decide it according to the text. Variousnyn there are rules of the road, so to speak for how the judiciary approaches cases, right . The mostwords, perhaps fundamental difference is that rather than making broad policy pronouncements, you decide cases, correct. Judge barrett that is correct. Cornyn ren i am sen. I am struck by an article by Justice Ginsburg and i forget what year it is, where she talks about roe v. Wade, and she talks about what she called the breathtaking decision. Mores, the courts cautious dispositions. She says suppose the court had stopped after rightly declaring unconstitutional a portion of the law and had not gone on as it did to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, i set of rules that displaced virtually every state law that enforced. Would there have been a 20 year controversy . We have witnessed and reflected most recently in the splinter decision in planned parenthood hit itey, might have serve to reduce rather than fuel controversy . I think what she was saying is when the court stepped in and basically takes over by stating a constitutional rule, it prevents the very people who fromelected by voters making policy, correct . Judge barrett correct. There are other requirements other than controversy that keep the judiciary in its perp appropriate lane, things like standing requirements. What is standing . Judge barrett standing means that you cannot just come to court and say because you dislike senator grahams fetal pain act you cannot just walk in and say i do not like that and i think it is unconstitutional. Standing means that you have to have suffered what the law because a concrete injury so it has to have affected you in some way. Arethat means that there real litigants with a live controversy, people cannot error policy disagreements only. An. Cornyn there is requirement of rightness . Judge barrett it means there has to be a live controversy. You cannot file a lawsuit until thes ripe meaning that injury has actually come to fruition and come to pass. Cornyn by the time you see it, the case has already had to been tried by a trial court, correct . Judge barrett that is correct. Sen. Cornyn and then there is a record, right . A record encompasses that the trial court prepares that you review as an appellate judge . Judge barrett they will be factual parts. They will be lengthy transcript of the trial. A District Court makes a number of legal rulings in the course of the case so the court may have ruled on a motion to dismiss and whether the law permitted this or gave the plaintiff a valid claim. The court may have ruled on a motion for summary judgment, which is an evaluation of whether the plaintiff or the defendant could win the case without going through a full trial because the law was clear enough. There are many things. Evidentiary rulings, a factual record that develops and in some instances, quite long. Sen. Cornyn you cannot go outside the record cans you . Judge barrett the record cannot be expanded on appeal. Sen. Cornyn that is true in the Supreme Court . Judge barrett yes. Sen. Cornyn all of these rules rules of the road, i will call them, a things like rings like the case controversy requirement, being confined to a record that is then the sole focus of a review. Are all of those sort of the judicialf how decisionmaking process is different from the legislative making process . Judge barrett yes, and it can take years for a case to wind through the process. As opposed to policymakers who do not have to wait on real disputes and the parties get to shape the case they are way, they decide what legal issues they will contest that narrows what the court can do. Policymakers, if you had enough agreement to pass something you could do it in one day, and just enact the law and the policy, and that is not how judicial decisionmaking works. Havecornyn i know you followed the same rule in Justice Ginsburg in Justice Ginsburg and not expressing opinions on cases that might come before the court. Is this another practical reason why you cannot predict how you will rule in the future . You do not know what the facts of the case may be, you do not know what the issues and controversy might be, so how in the world can you sit here and a sickly tell us about what your policy will be without knowing all of that . Judge barrett i could not, and when Justice Ginsburg said it would show disregard for the judicial process and litigants, she said it would signal to litigants all of the briefs that you file in a case does not matter because judges have a gut reaction and they know what they think, and this is all just going through the motions. That is not how the process should work, or does work. Sen. Cornyn there is no reason to believe that a judges gut reaction is better than american citizens reaction . Judge barrett no. And in the judicial process judge needs to have an open mind every step of the way. As i said, i changed my mind even after reading the brief. I changed my mind at conference after consulting with my colleagues. If i were to say how i thought i would resolve the case because i saw the issue, it would be such short circuiting that process through which i could be open to persuasion. Sen. Cornyn i do not see any of the big charts about individuals that were the subject of the stories that are democratic fans were telling friends were telling yesterday. Later. E will see them or maybe right now. Ideacornyn to me, the that some case that you might decide in the future that you have not had a chance to go through this analysis of and predicting how you might rule in the case, is that even possible . Judge barrett it is not possible because i do not know if my mind can be changed. I feel like it, would be a legal pond and commentating in real time and i do not think anyone wants judges to function that way. They want judges to take this seriously and do a lot of research and keep an open mind. Where does it authorize a judge to be a legal pond and and make policy pronouncements separated from all of these requirements . Judge barrett article three prohibits it, and as far as article three, prohibits federal courts from issuing advisory opinions. And that means when there is no real case in front of you or controversy, then you cannot just offer an advisory opinion that is not the resolution of a case to express your view in law. Fair tonyn it is not suggest that by confirming you to the position, this will adversely impact the lives of these individuals . What i say is that i certainly have no agenda. I am not hostile to the aca it all, and if i were on the court, and if a case involving the aca came before me i would approach it with an open mind like i do every case and go through the process we just discussed. Referring back to Justice Ginsburg, if judges restrict themselves to deciding cases and controversies as opposed to making broad policy announcements and displacing legitimate dispute, debate, legislation,nd does that encourage more litigation or dissension, or does it resolve it . Ge barrett with it without commenting on what Justice Ginsburg said about on roe v. Wade. Sen. Cornyn i am not talking about that. Judge barrett the requirement in so far that it ties the court to particular litigants and issue presented in the case, in fact, the Supreme Court has ruled that it will not consider questions outside the usual questions in the case. It means the court cannot reach out and decide other issues in the case if it. Not rant on them. Think instrument incremental decisionmaking to the issues actually presented is one way that the court tries to respect this constraint on its power that it is resolving cases in front of it. Koren sen. Cornyn these arrangements are not made to benefit you or the courts, or us, they are to benefit the American People by making sure that they are the ones who are the source of political power. Do you agree with that . All provisions in the constitution are there to benefit the people. Sen. Cornyn if the court rules on a statute, they can change the statute, but if the court says something is unconstitutional you can amend the constitution to change that ruling, the people can do that, right . The American People are the final word . Judge barrett yes. Cornyn i yelled back. Good to see you again. History, i wish the senator from idaho could hear this, you are the first nominee for a vacancy on the Supreme Court to be considered after july 1 of the election year, in fact, were the first nominee to be considered in the midst of the election, i do not know if that has happened before, certainly not in modern history. The question is why, what is the hurry, why couldnt we wait until the end of november or december after leaving a vacancy after anton scalia, because there is a political agenda here, and whether you are privy that, or part of notwithstanding it has to do with the. November 10 is the date that they have to fill the vacancy if the president and those that support him and those that support the republican platform will keep their promise to him, they need a ninth justice, and that is white has to be hurried. Unfortunately, that is the orange cloud of your nomination. As it comes before us in the Senate Judiciary committee. And, it raises many questions. I would like to confine the first part of these questions to what is going on across america as we meet here today. There is an election going on, people are trying to vote, and there are a lot of issues being debated and somewhat resolved or unresolved every single day. The president continues to lie about paper ballots saying that they are fraudulent and people should not use them. Lines,re still long unforgivably long lines for people who want to exercise their right to vote and the governed who want to give their consent. Thes a Battle Royale over Postal Service and whether it will be implicated in some effort to stop ballots from being delivered. One ballot collection box in Harris County texas for more than 4 Million People . One box, it is clear what is going on here, it is an effort to make it difficult to vote even to those who are legally entitled. Historically the Republican Party started using a tactic of discouraging voters. We have seen this, making it more difficult, adducing the period of time that people can vote early, requiring ids, purging the roles of names, this is going on. So i want to confine my questions on the question of voting. With what many people read this morning which was a summary of one of the exchanges yesterday and the committee. Senator feinstein who said President Trump made claims of voter fraud and suggested that he wanted to delay the upcoming election. Does the asked you, constitution give the president of the United States the authority, listen closely to unilaterally delay a general election under any circumstances, does federal law . If that question came before me i would need to the litigants, go through the opinion writing process, and he went on to say that you did not want to give offthecuff answers but approach matters with an open mind. Is that still your response. That barrett i have given response to every hypothetical i have asked, and as i said yesterday i do that regardless whether it is easy and hard. Signal it, that to but i do that because it would be inappropriate for me to make a comment and i do not think i have answered any legal hypotheticals in keeping with the Justice Ginsburg rule. Sen. Durbin you style yourself a textual list whatever the term is, which means you go right to the words and try to understand the words in their original meaning. And so if i change senator notsteins question and did ask you whether the president has the authority to delay a general election, and ask you does the president have the authority to unilaterally deny the right to vote to any person based on their race, what would your answer be . Judge barrett well, there are many laws in effect including the equal protection clause which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race including the 15th amendment which protects the right to vote against discrimination based on race. So, there is a principle and constitutional law called external constraints, and even if one evaluates what the authority a branch might has to constraints,ternal that presses in from other parts of the constitution. Here it would be the 14th and 15 amendment. Sen. Durbin of course it was. The 15th amendment the right to vote should not be abridged on account of race. That is clear text as i see it, but when asked if the president has any authority to unilaterally deny that right to vote for a person based on race or gender, are you saying you cannot answer that question . Judge barrett i just reference the 14th and 15th amendments, that dude prohibit discrimination on the basis of race on voting. Say not know how else i can it, the constitution contains prohibit tatians on the discrimination of race. But whether the president can deny, you cannot answer yes or no . Judge barrett youve answered a couple of questions. I cannot say anything more because i will not answer hypotheticals. Sen. Durbin that is strange regionalism if the clear warning of the constitution establishes a right and you will not acknowledge it. Judge barrett it would strain the canons of conduct which do not permit me to offer offthecuff reactions or any opinions outside of the judicial decisionmaking process. It would strain article three which prevents me from deciding legal issues outside of the context of cases and as justice ends berg said it would display disregard for the process. Sen. Durbin let us talk about the case we talked about before. Youre 30 seven page dissent in this case. Your 37 page dissent in this case. The junior senator in missouri in an to rehabilitate the that thesked you that right to vote is never secondary to any right and you answered yes, but it is fair to say i never said that. , have read and reread this your dissent on this and i would like to read to you what you wrote on this very question asked by the senator from missouri. Establish need to what this case is about for those who might not know or remember. Man, cantor was a con lived in wisconsin. He manufactured some kind of shoe insert, a pad and tried to sell it to people who had diabetes or foot problems. He wanted medicare to say it was approved, they did not, he sold it anyway and made the representation. Out ofted medicare 375,000 and was found guilty of paid 300,000 in penalties. In aid out 27 million civil settlement, and then spent a year in federal prison. This was not some runofthemill miscreant, this is a felon who was a con artist. He said this is unfair i observe my year in prison and now i want to buy a gun in the got and the law says i cannot buy a gun in the court said sorry, you cannot because you are guilty of a felony. Justice scalia said that felonies of Mental Illness could disqualify a person from buying a gun. Two out of three judges said that is right and that is the law, sorry. It then you took a look at and reached the opposite conclusion and did extensive research, delving into the history about whether or not violent felonies should be distinguished from regular felonies. You concluded that you believed that a person who has just been found guilty or convicted of a felony should not be disqualified from their Second Amendment rights. That that should be confined to those who were dangerous guilty of a violent felony. Heres what you said to go to the question. Here are your words. In sum the Available Evidence suggests that the rights to arms are different from civic virtue for enjoyment. The Second Amendment conveys a right and is not limited to civic participation. By the very terms of the civic rights argument, the right to arms would have been treated differently than things like the right to vote or sit on juries. Heres what it boils down to. After heller, after the decision, and scalias statement, you concluded that any felony can take away your right to vote, but only a violent felony can take away your right to purchase an ak47. Judge barrett with respect, that is distorting my position. What i said, which is what heller said and is conventional in all discussions to my knowledge is that the right to vote is fundamental, however it is an individual fundamental right that we possess, but we possess it as part of civic responsibilities for the common trueand the same thing is of jury service, where individual rights, benefit more the individual, and the entire dispute in heller was that the majority thought that the Second Amendment was an individual right, and the dissent thought it was a civic right, a right that people possess, but they possess for the benefit of society by participation in the militia. It is a distortion of the case to ever say that i said voting is a secondclass right. That is not what it means. The right tobut arms rather than would be treated differently than the right to vote. Heller did establish the individual right. When you finished with your dissent, heres what it came down to say. If you are guilty of a felony that is not violent, you can lose your right to vote, but not your right to buy a gun, are you wrong . The point i was making in that passage, the 14th amendment actually expressly allows for states deprive felons of their right to vote and my point was that there was no similar language in the Second Amendment. I do not have an opinion and have never expressed one about the scope of legislatures authority to take away felon Voting Rights. I said that there was a history of such provisions, and state constitutions and federal constitution but i did not words and if my communicated that, that was a communication missed munication. It. Durbin i think at best was a miscommunication. I would like to read an exchange that took place between senator kennedy and judge roberts. Senator kennedy said let us start with the Voting Rights act , most americans think that the right to vote is among the most in tort important tools they have to participate in our democracy. You do agree that the right to vote is a fundamental constitutional right . Judge roberts says it is preservative. Rights,of all other without access to the ballot box, people are not in the position to protect any other rights that are important to them, so i think it is as one, one of the most precious rights as americans. You understand why i read your lengthy dissent where somehow or another you could say to ricky cannon sorry you cannot vote anymore, but buy any guns we wish you wish, can you see why that would be troubling based on what Justice Roberts said . Judge barrett i do not because i have testified here that i think voting is a fundamental right, and i did not say to the contrary in this dissent. Sen. Durbin i read it and reread it, so i will tell you, from the way i see your language it is explicit. You have two categories of rights individual and based on collective action as an juries and as voting as a group, and you have made a distinction that i think it is hard to understand and difficult to explain, and in consistence with what Justice Roberts told us at this point. I would like to move on to another thing and leave it open i will like you dad the first word. Judge barrett i will answer whatever questions you have. Sen. Durbin let me introduce you to another family. This week i shared two stories at what is at stake with your nomination ahead of the november 10 oral arguments in california versus texas which will decide the future of the future of the Affordable Care act. Ofs is a family is jared Buffalo Grove illinois. He is on the right. Experiencingegan serious headaches. After a month of suffering he asked his father to take them to the emergency room. Mass and hevealed a was transported to everson hospital for surgery. Weeks later they learned the devastating news, he was cancerous brain andr on the cerebellum senator mccain suffered from a similar situation. Post surgery he began an aggressive six week proton radiation protocol and he is currently on his first round of eighth chemotherapy treatments. To costs have added up 700,000 and continue. Fortunately the aca permits jared to remain covered by his moms Health Insurance until the age of 26. It also ensures no lifetime limits on her policy so that they can continue to give jared the treatments that he wants and needs. Story,aring her sons mary said that any parent would be shocked and terrified. If the aca is abolished and my employer does not offer coverage dependentsdants they that puts them at risk of being uninsured and uninsurable. His father added that jared would not have access to this type of care if not for the Affordable Care act because he would not be insured. It is a huge benefit. Last week and your testimony you and the policy decisions value judgments of government must be made by political branches elected by and accountable by the people. The public should not expect the courts to do so. Thankfully, the political branches elected by the people passed and enacted the Affordable Care act. The problem is that the republicans are doing everything they can to take away this protection, and they cannot do it through elected officials, they have tried over and over. In the house and in the senate. I mentioned senator mccain earlier in this statement. I will never forget it and neither will any of us on the floor that night when he walked through the doors saving the Health Insurance of 23 millions american million americans in the protections. They could not repeal the Affordable Care act in congress and they have now taking it taking it to the Supreme Court. This administration decided instead of defending an existing law, they would attack 11 the republican attorneys general have gathered. They have good reason to believe that they will be successful. As i mentioned, right wing judicial activists have stepped into overturn decisions. Includingjudging rolling back campaignfinance laws and Citizens United and Voting Rights protections. The tool of choice is a supposedly neutral judicial philosophy of a regionalism and textualism which gives judges the ability to substitute their own judgment for the elective branches and strike down and holding laws that are to special interest. President trump says that has said that he would want to strike down the aca. You said you have not made agreements. At this as a cloud over your nomination. But he has over and over again. Advocates advocated others to carry out his political purposes. I am afraid of the impact of that repeal on people like jared. We have been told that you are following the ginsberg rule, no hints and no forecast. During your confirmation hearing. Justice Justice Ginsberg answered about what matters might come before the court such as the right to choose. You had one notable and selected departure from the ginsberg rule. When it comes to california versus texas, the republican challenged the Affordable Care act you up repeatedly claimed that the deciding question of the case is severability not the individual mandate, that is illegal a legal opinion. It will only reach the severability question if the mandate is unconstitutional, is that right . Judge barrett what i meant by that is that even if the mandate is unconstitutional, severability, if it is separable, then the statute would stand. If the mandate is constitutional, then yes, the law would stand. I said the emphasis, and i have gotten a lot of questions for this region reason and a lot of commentary in the legal news is focused on severability because it means that whatever the holding is on the mandate, the severability question is determinative even if the mandate was held unconstitutional. I did not say how i would rule and i did not say whether i would and purported interpret it to be a penalty rather than a tax. Sen. Durbin penalty or tax, you have addressed that, havent you . Judge barrett no, i have not. The writing that i have done before, that i assume you are referring to addressed a different provision that was not zero doubt. This is amended so it is different. Sen. Durbin you were on record for criticizing the individual mandate is constant to shield decision. Havent you . Judge barrett i am on record saying that i thought the majority opinion was a less plausible interpretation of the statute than that of the dissent. Was in academic writings, number one, and number two, they were on different issues. Number three, you are suggesting that i have some hostility to the aca, which i assure you i do not, and i think that is something you and i agree on. Judicial activism is bad from either side, and no matter what somebodys policy preferences are about the aca, i agree with you, they should not undermine the policy that congress enacted. You and i agree on that and i embrace that view of a judges roll wholeheartedly. We will do senator lee, white cruise and then break for lunch. I would like to submit a letter. I want to talk about religious freedom for a moment. As i mentioned the other day, i think you and i share something in common on this, and enthusiasm for religious freedom a member ofed i am the church for jesus christ of latter day saints and we have been no strangers to persecution even in this country. Thectober 27, 1838 government of missouri ordered us exterminated, it was not nice but i assume he had reasons. Heretics,d we were but we try to be nice heretics, and it was not until the late 70s that the governor of missouri lifted that ban. Would haveosh hawley lifted it for us had it not been lifted by then. Religious liberty has always been interesting to me for that reason, and also just as a lawyer. ,y late father, also a lawyer worked on and advised Congress Regarding the religious freedom restoration act. My longtime professional mentor was someone that i worked with in establishing a first of its kind religious Institutions Practice Group a couple of decades ago. Catholics, like members of my faith have also been subjected to religious persecution from time to time. Cases, we are directly targeted through blame amendments. Provisions worked into state constitutions, really four, in many cases, latently anticatholic purposes. They had as their purpose the restricting of public funds going to certain religious institutions including schools. Yearfully, earlier this the Supreme Court in espinoza versus montoya Montana Department of revenue struck down another blow against blaine amendments by reinforcing their earlier decision in the Trinity Lutheran case. Would you discuss briefly with us the Supreme Courts jurisprudence regarding these amendments and how they intersect with religious freedom . Judge barrett sure. Recent Supreme Courts decisions get at the principle that while we have to be careful about the establishment because, there is a line of cases saying that a state or federal government cannot establish a church, so we have a line of cases about what that means. At the same time, espinoza being an example, the court has been clear that religious institutions cannot be discriminated against or excluded from Public Programs simply because they are religious. During your time on the Second Circuit you have been able to handle cases involving religious freedom issues. For example, you joined a majority opinion in the gross case upholding a freedom of a jewish religious own discretion to hire teachers at school. Now, that ruling was challenged before the u. S. Supreme court but the Supreme Court denied it in that case. Majorityheless, a 72 of the Supreme Court in the our upy of guadalupe case ended adopting a position similar to that which you can you talk to us a little bit and seventhpinion opinion and its application of the ministerial objection . The ministerial exemption exception gives religious institutions discretion to hire teachers who are ministers. What this requires the courts to do is to decide who is a minister. On the one hand, there may be there might be more obvious questions like someone who teaches religion, religious teachers. The court said those would follow more in the heartland. It gets more difficult if you have a Religious School like the Jewish School or the Catholic School who has a teacher who is teaching math. The court cap to come up with a test to decide whether a person is a minister or not. The decision said is it is a multifactor test where no one factor is determinative. It could not be determined that a teacher teaches math instead of religion. In this case, the teacher taught jewish prayers and said jewish prayers with the class. The school considered it part of the teachers duty to form the them about to teach jewish prayers and to form them in that tradition. Even though she spent other time in the curriculum teaching other matters, it viewed that as part of her job. Our lady of guadalupe gives deference to the schools characterization of whether the teacher is a minister or not. Not to encourage discrimination but to encourage religious freedom. At a Catholic School, the teacher might teach math, but also pray with them and attend mass with them. It could be someone who is also forming children in the faith. It is really about what the scope of the ministerial exception is and how you identify if someone is a minister. Thank you, that is helpful. When you came in front of this committee in 2017, we are talking about just over three years ago for your confirmation for the seventh circuit, you said if there is ever a conflict between the judges personal conviction and the judges duty under the rule of law, it is never permissible for that judge to follow their personal convictions in the decision of the case rather than what the law requires. Do you still stand by that statement . Do. E barrett i i have colleagues on the others of the aisle who want to focus on statements made in your personal capacity and in your capacity as a private citizen and a member of your faith. Addressing actual cases dealing with abortion. I have a hunch that it is because of your record on the seventh circuit shows that youre able to set aside your personal convictions. That is what you have done when conflicted with your duty under the rule of law. Chicago, price versus chicago, you joined a seventh Circuit Panel opinion affirming the legality of chicago buffer zone law which places limits on what activists as on prolife activists they are demonstrating in front of abortion clinics. I assumed that was the case because there was minding Supreme Court precedent on the abortion buffer zone issue. Is that correct . Panel heldtt the that there was binding precedent. You follow that precedent, and you did so as a jurist rather than following whatever personal predilection might have guided you or any other member of the panel. Parenthood of indiana dissentucky, you joined in the seventh circuit. The Supreme Court later agreed with you in a 72 decision with respect to the indiana law requiring fetal remains to be following anmated abortion. The decision that garners a days on of 72 these the Supreme Court, a decision that includes Justice Breyer and Justice Kagan does not seem radical to me. Do you disagree . Courtbarrett the supreme summarily reversed which means without argument and briefing the panels holding in that case. And the fetal remains disposition of fetal remains portion of the statute was not rational. I will note for the record that i dont think i have ever aard anyone characterize as radical act of conservative activism 72 decision joined by Justice Kagan and Justice Breyer. Judge barrett, in addition to being able to set aside your personal convictions when deciding a case, you have toonstrated the ability expertly determine what the law requires. I believe this stems from a fundamental and correct view that a judge needs to start from the premise that the law provides an answer. The legal disputes can be difficult and reasonable minds excuseisagree does not the judge in believing there is a right answer. You seem to follow with that and it shows up in your work in a way that reflects well of you. The Congressional Research service conducted a review of your cases from the u. S. Court of appeals of the seventh circuit and determined that your casebycase consideration of the relevant law without any overarching trend toward either expanding or narrowing Fourth Amendment protections. This is exactly what i would expect from a textualist originalist. On an issue like the Fourth Amendment, it can be politically charged. This is exactly what you would expect to see with you, someone who does not appear to be up partisan one where the other. And who comes down on both sides. On the government and nongovernment side. This would also account for a variety of outcomes in your cases. An are not aiming for overarching trend in outcomes. Analysis seems to come out sometimes in favor of a defendant and sometimes in favor of the government. I find your opinions and dissents and Panel Opinions to demonstrate this commitment to following the law as it is written rather than on the basis external objectives. Can you tell us why you felt the need to dissent in the case of schmidt versus foster . Judge barrett yes. That case involved a state court case that came up through the wisconsin courts. A the case, there was question of whether the defendant could raise a defense under Wisconsin Law called adequate provocation having murdered his wife. The case came to the wisconsin arguedand the defendant that an x partake examination of the judge at which his counsel was present but not permitted to speak did not violate the sixth amendment because in that case, they did not want to preview his case for the prosecutor and so he didnt want the prosecutor in the room so the judge said i will allow that but only if your attorney doesnt speak because if we arent going to preview your case for the prosecution and not allow the prosecutor to be here. The judge proceeded to ask the defendant questions to decide whether he could make an adequate provocation defense and concluded he could not. In that case, the wisconsin courts held that this proceeding did not violate the defendants right to counsel. Telling his counsel that he could not speak. Under 2254my court which is the state habeas statute permitting collateral review of state conviction. It requires heavy deference to state courts. You can only disturb a state Court Holding on a matter of law if no reasonable jurist could reach that conclusion or it has to be in conflict with clearly established Supreme Court law. In that case, i made clear that it wasnt up to us to decide whether we saw it as an original matter whether it violated the sixth amendment because as the Panel Majority which then became a dissent said it was an unprecedented hearing. If it was unprecedented, that meant that there was no clearly established Supreme Court law on point. The decision was driven by federalism and by the statutory instruction that federal courts give deference to state courts. Thank you. Case, United States versus wilson, i believe that one was in which you agreed with the majority in concluding that the officers acted with reasonable suspicion raced on the circumstances of the case and the detention there involving a flight by the individual from the scene. Us wrote separately, tell why you wrote separately in that case. Judge barrett that case if i have it correctly, i have been almost 600 cases, but i think another when you were talking about. About somea tip crude criminal activity and there was a group of men in a park. The police approached the park then they went up to talk to one of the men at the park because they noticed a bulge in his pocket. He was wearing athletic shorts. , theylice approached them approached the man and he fled. Under Supreme Court law, the determinative question for a seizure is whether the person fled then was detained and seized by the police. The other way that that could the been justified is if police had reasonable suspicion to approach him because they saw the bulge in his pocket. I wrote separately because i thought that the placement policemans basis for stopping him if it had been on reasonable suspicion was questionable because they had an anonymous tip. The people in the park did not match the description given in the anonymous tip, all they saw was the bulge in his pocket. He had not fled, i thought the case it talked about the fled the flight because if he had not fled, i was dubious that it would have been a justified stop. Toi admire your decision write separately in that case. I think it shows real courage and judicial leadership to speak out and write separately when the occasion requires that and you did so with nothing to gain from it. You did so because it was important to point it out under the law and i respect that. And the couple of minutes we have left, i wanted to ask you more broadly about something i have noticed in reviewing letters and other materials we have received in response to her nomination. I have noticed that there is a common theme among your law and students that they feel like you see them as individuals and they feel meant toward and taught they feel meant toward and taught by you. Deciding who to hire as pure law clerks as how you clerks and mentor them . Judge barrett over a teaching career, i have taught roughly 2000 students. Four law clerks per year and i also continue to teach at least seminar in which i have 15 students or so. What i am work looking for in law clerk is excellent legal ability because i need to help to do the legal research. I want someone who has excellent legal ability. I want someone who has integrity. I want someone who isnt afraid to push back and express his or her own opinions at the same time realizes that i am the boss and if i disagree, theyre going ultimately. O along i also want law clerks who are character. Our chambers is small. In ameone had sharp elbows chamber that only has six people or that showed disrespect or arrogance, that would make for a miserable year for everyone. I have not been disappointed. Every one of my law clerks has fit that bill and i view it as my duty my law clerks just as with my students to encourage them to enter the profession as full people who have gained knowledge in the law with their time with me and have seen that they can live a life where people can disagree without being disagreeable. Thank you, judge barrett. Senator whitehouse . Judge barrett thank you. Thank you. Let me ask unanimous consent that an essay i wrote for the harbor journal on legislation called dark money in the u. S. Courts be admitted into the record. Without objection. I have a report prepared by democrats called captured courts. Be admitted into the record. And an article by the new york bigs called Charles Kochs bet on barrett activating his Political Network to support judge barretts nomination. Without objection. Barrett, on the seventh circuit, you are subject to a code of ethics. Judge barrett i am. I assume youre ok with that. Judge barrett of course. I would submit you think that is a good thing. Judge barrett yes. Thell courts are subject to same code of ethics correct . Judge barrett yes. Gets different at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is not subject to a code of ethics . Judge barrett the canons of judicial conduct that apply to Lower Court Judges do not apply to the Supreme Court although i do believe it is the practice of the Supreme Court to follow them. They do not apply, we agree. Going to the Supreme Court can interrupt an ethics investigation as we saw with Justice Kavanaugh who had an ongoing ethics investigation in his circuit that was interrupted by his elevation to the Supreme Court without having concluded. There is no such thing with you correct . We have no seventh circuit ethics investigation going on that would bl it interrupted by your elevation to the Supreme Court . Judge barrett i am not aware. I suspect you would be. Ofh respect to reporting ,ifts, travel, hospitality emoluments. The circuits have a solid rule about reporting those and you comply with that rule on the seventh circuit . Judge barrett i do. It might even be by statute that we have to do that, but i do. Yes. , i will offer this as a proposition, the rule that you follow and the way in which circuit judges follow it aligns quite well with the reporting requirements that in the executive branch, members of the cabinet have to do when they get travel, andifts, other emoluments and it aligns quite well with the reporting that members of congress have to gifts of travel or hospitality or other such emoluments. Is with thency here Supreme Court. A much lower standard of transparency and disclosure about those very same things. It is a bit of a mystery when i see the situation, when you go up to the court, you will be not subject to the code of ethics that you are subject to now and you will have lower reporting requirements than you do now or that any of us do. I flag that for you because i think it is anomalous that the highest court should have the lowest standards and i dont know if you want to Say Something about that . At a minimum, i hope you would keep an open mind about trying to fix that when you are on the court. If you have a defense of why the highest court should have a lowest standard, have at it. Judge barrett i know that the justices file Financial Disclosure reports. I have never looked at one. I didnt know that they were different or that it was a lower standard than the ones that the rest of us take a look at that when you get up there. I have never interrupted anyone, but can i ask a question . Now that you know that, how do you feel about it . Interrupt my time while you are asking the desk answering the chairmans question . Judge barrett as i just said, i am surprised because i did think it was by a statute that apply to everyone. I am surprised. I have always complied with filling out my Financial Disclosure reports and as i am sure it may have been for you all, its a little uncomfortable the first time to make your finances available. Anyone can request it. But i have always complied. A for the record, it is question of interpretation and practice. I have hadham and public conversations about trying to remedy this with a legislative fix. You have that coming your way. You have repeatedly mentioned the phrase about litigation winding its way through the courts and ultimately to the Supreme Court. You have described that process as winding its way as an important restraint on judicial activism. You have to wait until a court a case gets to you through the ordinary course . Judge barrett correct. Ordinarily, i dont know if you have ever done a case, but ordinarily it begins with a person. Judge barrett correct. That person feels an injury . Judge barrett yes. That person goes to a lawyer . Judge barrett yes. That person goes to a lawyer and files a complaint. Win andurt, they try to vindicate their injury. That is the basic standard way in which this works. Judge barrett yes. It gets a little weird sometimes and that is a circumstance i would like to bring up to you. It touches on some of the stuff that i addressed yesterday. You note janice . Lets describe this as the janice saga. Its about a different case called abboud. That was precedent for 40 years. Judge barrett i cant remember when it was decided, but it was precedent before janice. It was a longstanding precedent. On which there was considerable reliance . Judge barrett it did overrule that precedent so it didnt go through the application of the factors in deciding whether or not to overrule it. There was reliance in the 40 years that it had been the law of the land on the question of the union that had resolved. Judge barrett i dont want to secondguess or criticize or praise the majority in i am asking you for a matter of fact, have 20 states relied on it . Judge barrett reliance on abboud is a legal question. We believe that than. The janice saga begins with a case called knox. Alito took aice shot at abboud. Ascriticized it substantially impinging on first member writes of union members. For people who are watching, the abboud case was about the labor from getting compensated nonmembers when in the representation of their members, they get benefits for the people who are not members. Not the most exciting part of the law, but settled this question of when they could get compensated for nonmembers. Justice alito did not like it. Andook a shot at it in knox the majoritys choice to reach an issue not presented by the parties briefed or argued disregards our rules. Justice alito did not like something about abood so he took a shot. Then we went on to a later decision called harris b quinn. Justice alito took another shot at abood in that case describing it as having an that is questionable. He undertook an extended critique of the decision describing it as having questionable foundations. Justice kagan spotted that and in her dissent, she said todays majority cannot resist taking pot shots at abood and described its critique as fortuitous gratuitous. The message went out from judge alito that he wanted to do something about abood. There was something about abood that he did not like. With that, that was the prequel. Then, we went to the two cases that followed. Friedrichsne was which was supposed to be the one that got rid of abood and it had an interesting travel. The lawyer in the case was one of these groups from janus. It was the center for individual rights. Right to Legal Defense foundation was counsel so they switched. Forriedrichs, the center individual rights was counsel. , theyt went on to janus switched. For individual rights was an amicus. From everything i see, it looks like they went out and found a plaintiff. Back to our earlier discussion, it wasnt the injured person that hired a lawyer, it was the legal group that went and found a plaintiff. Then, they went to court which every buddy does. They got interest. I have never been in a case where anyone asked to lose have you . Judge barrett no, i have never experienced that. I can imagine not. These groups with money behind them from Bradley Foundation and all come into court and they say please dismiss my case in the District Court. Then, they go to the ninth circuit and they specifically asked the ninth circuit to get rid of the case, to uphold the decision dismissing the case as quickly as practicable and without argument. Have you ever seen a case where someone came in and said i would like to lose as quickly as practicable without making an argument on behalf of my client . Wase barrett abood controlling law at that point . My question was have you ever seen that happen . Judge barrett i have not seen that happen in my circuit. Then, the case went on to decision. As pretty did or signaled by Justice Alito, it looked like it was going to be 54 decision knocking out abood after 40 years. Sadly and unfortunately, Justice Scalia died before that decision could be rendered so it decision turned out to be 44 decision. As you know, the tie ghost of the decision below and the ninth circuit prevailed. That was it for friedrichs. I did not take long for the same my janusis is back to exhibit. Commonly who had showed up in janus. It was a reunion of the team. Getybody filing back in to there was no big rush this time because this time, they had to wait for the vacancy on the court to be filled. They had to wait for Justice Gorsuch. There was not the same rush. The case then they went to argue it and down came the decision. I asked you to think that through because i have done some appellate argument and i have done some trial work and i have run a lot of litigation. One of the things that has been a constant for me has been the belief that even if i was taking a long shot case, i would get a fair hearing, a fair decision, and i had a shot. That thefeeling lawyers going into United States caseme court in the janus looking at this array of commonly funded antiunion front groups assembled against them having seen what friedrichs portended, having been signaled by Justice Alito in the earlier cases that they wanted to get rid of abood that they were on the hunt for. That is a feeling that no lawyer should have in america. Court, iwere on the want to make sure you will conduct itself and cede that the court conducts itself that no lawyer goes into an argument the United States Supreme Court feeling that the case is stacked against them and there is nothing to be done rather than go in and take your medicine. Judge barrett i will approach every case with an open mind. I have a little bit of time , by the i will get onto way i am not the only one who sees this as a saga. The dissent in janus said here and the six Year Campaign to undo abood by a majority of five. Pretty safe to say that you dont think courts should be campaigning to reach decisions. Judge barrett without yes iing on janus, think that judges should not have campaigns. Shouldprojects and they not have campaigns, they should decide cases. Thank you. Because we have had all of these fluttering around the Court Without disclosing who is behind them, lets talk about and mckey for a minute. The seventh, on circuit, do you have x partake meetings with litigants . Te meetings with litigants . Constraints against doing so. How about with mckey . If there is a case where there is an amicus in a case before you, would you meet with them privately when the case is pending . Privately,tt meet allow the amicus . No. That would be inappropriate. Is it possible that you would not know who is behind the amicus if they have not told you . How they are funded . I am thinking through what the disclosures are. That is not part of what groups disclose when they file emma chris reese. When they file amicus briefs. There is a decision that amicus in their disclosure only who paid for the physical preparation and filing of the brief. Interest of aig group that said heres a Million Dollars we want you to do great things and we would appreciate it if you filed an amicus brief in this matter but dont mention us and we would love to give you would sayut what you and we would love to read it before you file it. That doesnt meet the standard of 37. 6. The court and the parties would never know and in fact, this happened in the oracle case in oracle versus google. Hadurned out that oracle given up to 99,000 to something called internet accountability project which filed a brief and didnt disclose that oracle, a party in the case had given it 99,000 and internet accountability project was a popup. Somebody established it, took the money and wrote the brief. There is another called the American Conservative Union which was given up to 500,000 by oracle and filed a brief in the oracle case and didnt disclose it had been given that kind of money by oracle. Isnt that the kind of stuff that parties should know, that public and court should know . Judge barrett i did not know that until you just shared it with me. Inc. About it because i think its something that the parties and the court and the public should know. Groupse are amicus potentially teeing up the benefits that will benefit the secret funders that will may be two for a case to know is coming but it isnt this case but it can have an effect later on, other party should know that. Andge you to consider that i am 13 seconds out, so i will leave it with that. Please think about these things. There is something not right about the way this is happening and i urge you and anyone from the court who is listening to try to sincerely clean this mess up because it is not good for the court. Thank you. Senator cruz . Thank you, mr. Chairman. All the lastrst of three days of hearings have revealed very good news. They have revealed the news that judge barrett is going to be confirmed by this committee and by the full senate. With two full days of questioning, we have seen that our democratic colleagues have very few questions raised about judge barretts qualifications. Very little of the time we have spent in here has concerned her record as a judge, her 20 years as a respected scholar. Instead, much of this hearing is focused on political attacks, attacks directed at President Trump. I recognize our democratic colleagues are not going to be voting for president and that is their prerogative. Evenhave largely abandoned trying to make the case that judge barrett is anything other than exceptionally wellqualified to serve as justice. It is striking that as we sit here right now in this committee only twore are Democratic Senators in the room. If you look there are empty chairs. The Democratic Senators are no longer attending. I assume they will show up for their time, but it is indicative of what they are admitting which is that they dont have substantive criticisms. May i make a point of personal privilege . The covid crisis, the pandemic some officers are in their offices. To suggest their absences mean they are not participating is incorrect. I would note that the senator from illinois omitted the fact that all but two of the democrats were physically here yesterday. After the questioning, they made the decision not to be here. You are welcome to make that decision, but it is indicative when it comes to the time of the questioning this side of the arguments not have against judge barrett, any chance of prevailing. I want to address a couple of individual points that have been made. Senatorshe democratic have talked about obamacare. At great length. At times, i have been confused and i thought we were on the Health Committee instead of judiciary because it has been such a central talking point for every democrat that if President Trump is reelected, they assert everyone with preexisting conditions is going to be denied health care and people will be dying in the streets. That is the reelection message. Its not connected to reality, its not actually true. Every member of the senate agrees we are going to protect preexisting conditions and i would note that not one of the Democratic Senators who raised that point have addressed the very real and catastrophic failures under obamacare. Obamacare has doubled the profits of the big insurance companies. It has been great corporate welfare for giant Health Insurance companies at the same time according to the kaiser foundations, premiums for average families have risen 7,967 per year on average. That is catastrophic millions of americans cannot afford health care. It is a catastrophic failure of obamacare. None of that has anything to do with judge barretts nomination to the Supreme Court. That is a very good argument for members of the senate to be having. Yes, we should be protecting preexisting conditions and expanding competition, expanding options, lowering premiums. This body will continue to debate that. Will not be the decisionmaker on a health care policymaker matter. Had an exchange with judge barrett about the thet to vote and also about Second Amendment. Matter, several democrats want to see the Second Amendment abridged to the maximum extent possible. Two, democrats have decided they want to see as many felons as possible able to vote. One would presume they have made a determination it is in their political interests to have more felons, more convicted murderers, convicted rapists, people convicted of Domestic Abuse voting. They have made an assessment that that helps their prospects on election day. They are entitled to make that policy determination. At different states have made different determinations about and what circumstances felons should be allowed to vote or not. Puzzled. T i am not sure our democracy is law toby changing the allow murderers to vote. Im not sure the operation of the republic would be better if Charles Manson had a greater voice in the electoral system. I would note, senator sanders from vermont in the democratic president ial parties argued that felons in jail literally charles sentence,ving a life multiple life sentences for murder should be able to vote. Thatsmatter, i think pretty out there. The interesting thing is, judge barrett was not called upon to whetheretermination every felon or no felon should vote. Rather, she was applying the law. Judge barrett, did i hear you correctly that when you were describing your dissent in the cantor case, one of the reasons you said there was a difference in the law as it concerned voting versus the Second Amendment was because the 14th amendment explicitly contemplates legislatures making restrictions on voting based on whether you have committed a crime . Judge barrett thats right. I have the text of the amendment because senator durbin was highly critical as a policy matter, he wants this felons voting. He did not address the legal issue that as a judge, judge barrett was obliged to address in section two of the 14th amendment provides and relevant part, but when the right to vote in any election is denied or is forny way abridged, except participation in rebellion or other crime. Durbin may not like that the 14th amendment explicitly contemplates that if you commit a crime if you are a felon, you may forfeit your right to vote. That is in the text of the constitution. Judge, judge barrett would would sheng her job not look at the text and follow the text of the constitution. Am i right that the Second Amendment doesnt have similar surrounding other crime or something comparable to that . Judge barrett you are correct. A third point. There has been some discussion from democratic members raising the question of the Federalist Society and dark money. And all sorts of mysterious connections. That barrett, am i correct for a time, you were a medal of member of the Federalist Society . Judge barrett while i was on the faculty as a fulltime tenured professor. And you have spoken at some of their events . Judge barrett i have. In your time dealing with the Federalist Society, have they ever lobbied you to take a potential position . Judge barrett they have not . Have they ever filed a brief in your court urging a particular outcome . Judge barrett they do not litigate they have not filed a brief in my court. Your understanding is correct. Federalist society does not file amicus briefs. Have triedt leaders to sully the Federalist Society. From reality,cted but i will say and i wish senator whitehouse were here. I intended to have this discussion with him because he just spoke and spoke about all the connections he had. I was feeling bad that i didnt have a chart with red fuzzy yarn connecting all of the things that are the deep conspiracies going on. I do have a chart that is smaller that has similar. Onnections back and forth it is produced by the americans for public trust. It shows the dark money connections between senator whitehouse and planned advisorsd and arabella and all of these different organizations with money flowing back and forth. All of the dark money. I would note, one of those dark money organizations on the left that we talked about yesterday that is the demand justice organization. I would point out that has involvedo be directly in these proceedings because this is a leftwing dark any organization that has posters right outside this building that have pictures. Senator lee, chairman graham, you are on the posters. They say supreme superset super spreaders policy first health and safety last. If they want to put your pictures up, its a good picture of senator lee and not such a good picture of chairman graham. Its not their fault. [laughter] democratic dark money the republican dark money efforts which is why ,ithout a twinge of hypocrisy democratic members make this charge repeatedly. I will point to one specific mcconnellich is judge in the state of rhode island. He is to be the treasurer of the rhode island democratic party. And the director of the rhode Island Branch of planned parenthood. How did mr. Mcconnell, judge . About 500,000 to Democratic Political committees before becoming a judge. This is more than any other judge nominated by obama or trump. He stands at the top, 500,000. He donated 12,600 to senator whitehouse. He hosted a fundraiser for senator whitehouse in 2006. Gave mcconnells wife 250,000 dollars to candidates and causes so that is 750,000. Now, judge mcconnell is a judge after senator whitehouse vigorously led the fight to get him appointed. He sits on the committee on code of conduct on the u. S. Judicial conference. On that committee, he has helped lead the charge to issue a new rule to try to ban judges from being members of the Federalist Society. Shock of no one looking at that red yarn connections. After the committee put out this assault on the Federalist Society to prohibit judges from being members, senator whitehouse and six other Democratic Senators loudly cheered that effort in writing. Fortunately, that effort was roundly denounced. Over 200 federal judges signed a letter opposing this. The Federalist Society takes no positions, doesnt lobby, doesnt file briefs, doesnt take Public Policy positions. Whereake place in debates people on the left are featured prominently. Every u. S. Supreme Court Justice has spoken at least one Federalist Society event. Thankfully, the assault on the Federalist Society was withdrawn in the face of over 200 federal judges and i would note 29 senators roundly criticizing the attempt. Lets turn to a fourth issue. Many democratic members of this committee seem to be treating this hearing as a policy hearing on what is Good Health Care policy, what is good gun policy, what is good Voting Rights policy. And your view, is it the responsibility of a federal judge to implement policy positions they might happen to agree with . Judge barrett that is your job, not judges. I very much agree with you. Watchingy for someone these proceedings to assume both sides want the same thing just on opposite partisan lines. It is easy to assume that the democrats want democratic judges and the republicans want republican judges to implement their policy. As easy as that is to assume, i dont believe it is accurate. Accurate with respect to the judges i would like to see nominated and confirmed. I will give you an example. An issue that i am deeply passionate about is School Choice. That is the civil rights issue of the next century. Think to fight for the correct arena to fight for School Choice is here in the senate, the legislature, the politically accountable elected legislatures. Do i want to see a federal court issue an order mandating School Choice across the country . It might be simpler if i could convince justices that you must have School Choice. It would be a lot easier than trying to convince 51 or 60 senators trying to convince the house, we have gotten School Choice legislation passed through this body that i have introduced, but it would be much easier if five philosopher kings could mandate it. That would not be an appropriate judicial role and i am not asking judge barrett to issue any ruling, although i believe that is the right policy. Its not judges rule to mandated. Role to mandate it. Interestingly enough, our colleagues do support judges prohibiting it. If you look at a case, it was a challenge to ohios School Choice program. Ohios School Choice program gave scholarships to thousands of low income children, mostly africanamerican and hispanic children trapped in failing schools. Athem hope, a chance at chance to have a shot at the american dream. It was immediately challenged. The case went to the Supreme Court by a fort 54, supreme upheld it. Five justices were prepared to strike down the decision is unconstitutional and with it every other School Choice program. They dont let the elected legislatures decide to give scholarship to kids if they choose to go to a religious institution. As far as i am concerned, that is a radical and activist position. Were ready to shut down School Choice programs all over the country. That is an example of how one side wants the court to mandate their policy outcomes and the other side does not. I dont want mandated, i want left to the palooka process. To the process. I want to address the issue of packing the court. Repeatedly joe biden and Kamala Harris refused to answer whether they would pack the court. What does it mean to pack the court . One specific thing which is expanding the number of justices to achieve a political outcome. It is wrong. It is an abuse of power. I believe should they win in november, our democratic colleagues will pack the court. Refuses tojoe biden answer, although he did say the voters dont deserve to know his answer as to whether he will pack the court. What we have seen this past week with a messaged discipline that is quite remarkable, Democratic Senators all making a new argument that what republicans have done for four years is packing the court. With all due respect, what utter nonsense. Isling judicial vacancies not what that term means, and they are in net cash endeavoring to redefine the language to set theframework to set predicate for a partisan result on the court. Fdr courtin 1983 said packing idea was a boneheaded idea, a terrible mistake to make. It put in question an entire decade the most significant body in the country. Said the and 2017 Judiciary Committee stood against the Court Packing scheme that would have eroded judicial independence. Senator blumenthal much the same. Senator durbin in 2018 said 75 years ago we went through this and the congress was correct in stopping this popular president named Franklin Roosevelt from that idea. Justice ginsburg and 2019 said if anything would make the court looked partisan it would be that, one side saying we are in power we are going to enlarge the number of justices not fill vacancies, enlarge the number so we would have more people vote the way we want to. Nine seems to be a good number, it has been that way for a long time, i think it was a bad idea when president roosevelt tried to pack the court. That is the next fight we are facing if democrats win the majority. I hope we dont see that come to pass. Thank you. We will come back at 12 30 and we will lead off with senator koontz. 12 30. You are watching cspan. Your unfiltered view of government. Brought to you today by your television provider. The confirmation hearing for Supreme Court nominee amy Coney Barrett concludes thursday with the Senate Judiciary committee listening to outside witnesses who support and oppose judge nomination at show onm. Eastern election security. Later in the day we are live from the campaign trail in North Carolina with President Trump holding a rally in greenville. Senator Kamala Harris speaking to voters in charlotte. Coming up on washington journal vermont senator patrick lady talks about the hearings for amy Coney Barrett. More on the confirmation process with russ