[background noises] the hearing will come to order break todays hearing will examine the need for a fiscal or Debt Commission. Well hear from a panel of experts including current and former colleagues that have been through these battles and have lived to talk about them. In fact extra special to have my mentor and friend steve who i am now literally serving as chairman and the shadow of his beautiful portrait behind us. And so it is an honor to have you back here in your chamber. Sender rob portman, ambassador portman is from ohio. We are delighted that you are here. He was a member of the bipartisan bicameral Super Committee established by the budget control act of 2011. He also served as director of omb during the Bush Administration which is where i got to know him. He has given a lot of thought to these issues over the years. Ambassador, thank you for your time we welcome you here. What is he . An alumni of the peoples house. That is why we have you here because you are one senator we can trust great but we have to actually. [laughter] chairman conrad, welcome our friend from north dakota has also worked on budget issues for a long time. I was the former chairman of the Senate Budget committee from 2001 until 2003, 2007 2013 with the principal authors legislation served as a template for the creation of the Simpson Bowles commission he served on the Simpson Commission and worked to advance their recommendations in the senate. Chairman, we are delighted youre here with us today. Again, chairman womack my dear friend from arkansas it was because of him i served as a joint select committee on budget and appropriation process reform. He shared that he is a cardinal on the appropriation committee. And has served again as Ranking Member and chairman of the Budget Committee from 1821. Last but not least our friend and fearless leader once upon a time here on the Budget Committee chairman from the commonwealth of kentucky spent most of his time in Congress Working on these very issues that we will be discussing today. He served as Ranking Member and chairman on this committee from 17 23. Its also the joint select committee and thank you for your service. Im now going to yield myself such time as i may consume and im going to try to consume just a brief period of time because we are going to be oppressed i think to leave here by noon for a vote on the floor. Im going to speak just offthecuff here. We have had a lot of conversations on our side, jimmy, over the last few weeks as it relates to the leadership of our conference. And i am proud to say that we are wrestling with things of the greatest imports. Which have to do with our Fiscal Health and the deterioration thereof in this country. The important and difficult things we have to do to address it so we can right the ship. So that we can ensure that our children are in good financial stead they will not have to dig out of a hole trillions upon trillions of debt. It is not rights, it is a moral and ill think anybody on this Committee Democrat or republican thanks its acceptable. We laid out the reverse the curse budget resolution. It is our job. I think one of the problems with this place is we dont do our job who do not do it very well but we dont do it on time for we dont take it seriously. We do not the process that encourages or forces us to do this job and so we just dont. We avoid this difficult conversation just getting more difficult was easier to avoid them. And by the way both sides do it. We dont pay for things. We do not authorize before refund things. It is just a big ball of dysfunction and it is no wonder we are at a place where we are at a 2 trilliondollar annual deficit cliff that will double in 10 years. Were at an almost trillion dollar Interest Payment that will triple in 10 years. It is no wonder what the dysfunction in the mess of this process. Here is one thing i believe. We have to address a mandatory spending. While we are obsessing over one half of one third of one years discretionary budget i do not want to dismiss we have to get our fiscal house in order there is waste and unnecessary spending on the discretionary side and we have to get after it and be stewards of the taxpayers here. It is not to diminish but the mandatory spending and entitlement programs that are really driving the debt. If we do not address the middlel truly bankrupt this country. Here is the deal paid the unfunded liability over the next liability over the 30 years at 100 trillion, 99 of the cost the unfunded liability are two programs. Social security and medicare. Social Security Medicare are critically important to our seniors. In this budget window we have to address the solvency we have to address for not only Seniors Today but for the future. It is my strong belief the Republican Party unilaterally will not be able to solve those issues. Nor will the Democrat Party in this chamber are either chamber solve the issues of Social Security and medicare. They went to politicizing weaponize over the years. I think we need a Debt Commission of some sort. We have to have a commission, a framework, a model that works. The reason we have you here is to share with us your experience and your wisdom so that we can apply the necessary contours to whatever Debt Commission we can pass so that in the ultimate analysis and outcome we have a solution that we can hold hands together in a bipartisan way and not only move that issue but move the country forward with some peace of mind and confidence that our country is on a better path. So that is the fundamental question as i see it. Good gentlemen, how do we do this learning from all the different commissions the one we served on, steve 2011 Super Committee Simpson Bowles the greenspan, how do we do this . So that it works. Not just for this institution but most important for the American People and with that i yield to make Ranking Member for as much time as he may need to be a quick thank you, mr. Chairman. I am on a personal level very excited to welcome you back. Served as chairman of this committee in congress with great distinction. And also was a wonderful friend. Someone who was really a role model for me. Thank you my friend i would not be here without you. Its great to have you back. Undo steve that when my really good friends on the other side of the aisle its also great to have you in this position as well. We were approached unjustly say this. The way you approach maker where the most well respected members in the house. That is on both sides. Of time like this we need that more than ever so thank you for being who you are and doing what you do into the two former senators while i have not had the opportunity to work with you before you both enjoyed great reputations attention is your from all four of you today. What you thought worked well on the respective commissions in which you served and ultimately what didnt work about them. I appreciate and i know my chairman is sincere in his belief is an answer thus not my position im keeping an open mind about it im more than a little bit skeptical that a commission would work frankly given the history of the last dozen years. Or that the commissioner straight up vote that is the ballgame. Announce the process by which we get to resolve the ultimate question appeared where you take the date the cbo uses her Social Security trustees use either 2033 or 2034 we crossed the rubicon when it comes to Social Security and go over in terms of insolvency. Pablo being able to pay 75 of the benefits. Before that date but one of the Medicare Trust funds as well. So, we have some time but not a lot of time. Ultimately that that big question is going to be do we raise revenues of Social Security and medicare . Or do we cut benefits . I come down very clearly i do not make a secret about that. I practice what i preach. And the author on the house side with sheldon on the senate side of a bill that would raise enough revenue for Social Security and verified this. From the year 2100. I want to share it just some data to remarkable pull data june 2023 thus asked the American People which approach do you prefer . Raising taxes on rich and large corporations including closing tax loopholes, using that extra money to pay our bills. Our current project Social Security and medicare and using that money to pay our bills . Results were 82 seven. I have never seen polling results like that. 82 opting for raising taxes on rich and large corporations. 7 cutting programs like Social Security and medicare. So whether you talk about a commission or not a commission, ultimately we know there is a choice its going to have to be made per bet the end of the day is going to members of congress, elected officials who will be voting what it looks like. On the positive about a commission the 2018 commission on which you serve mr. Chair and on which you serve german yarmouth there was specific bipartisan look at budget reforms that could happen that would improve the process. Some pass of the Senate Committee did not ultimately become law. Im really interested in following up on the work you guys did. There are some things they are that we could turn into law and make personally part of the process prep especially interested in crying about 2018 2018not cemented debt commissior se it was more about budget process. I think we have a real opportunity in this congress. We have talked about this before to make that law and get support from at least three quarters of the respective chairs and Ranking Members. Without welcome and welcome back and i yield to the chair for a quick thank you Ranking Member i agree also we have to have the political courage to ask that decision i would hope it commission would foster some serious conversation try to depoliticize that conversation we have to have it. Once again in the interest of time if any other member organizations written statement for the record i will hold the record open till the end of the day to accommodate those have not been able to prepare their statements. Id also like to welcome our distinguished panel. And at this time i would like to yield five minutes to send portman. Quick thank you chair and Ranking Member thank you for your comments chairman, he laid out the challenge very well offthecuff i appreciate your knowledge when it comes to this also appreciate you inviting lesson is in a hearing room he was chairing it on a Budget Committee i was from this side of the table he was tough im glad to have them on this side of the table today. As you know i spent a lot of my career work on the budget issues. And also a member of this Committee Finance Committee and yes member the socalled Super Committee in these roles ive havehad an opportunity to see something thats a current budget process. Which we talked about. And the inability for congress to address the impending fiscal crisis. Between my source of house and house andsenate i did serve as t and budget i got to the same thing on did menstruation side. The inability to address the fiscal crisis from the executive branch perspective. Why these are tough issues a lot of political landmines. My experience ive made the conclusions time to try Something Different try something it gives congress the American People to understand its going on and have trust in that but also provide balance bipartisan way forward. Thats why believe a commission with memberships from congress and experts is necessary and timely right now. I want to commend the members of this committee piloted all of your backgrounds everyone it seems has offered legislation we crated solutions to the crisis Ranking Member talked about some. A number of bipartisan and this legislation. Include the Fiscal Commission on the budget resolution which expert position cochair of the bipartisan format. The Fiscal Commission act and te most recent continued resolution did not pass but got a vote. The fcas cosponsored by representatives and i apologize if ive missed others on the committee who been similarly engaged. This morning will hear from your former chair will have his own Commission Proposal. Want to thank members of this committee for taking the lead on that. You are well aware of the economic challenges a fiscal thl challenges that we face will not going to detail 33 truly begins to add up to a huge issue. In a tremendous at borden on the future generations it diminishes our standing in the world. Ive traveled and talk to people negatively impacts our economy. No coincidence we have had this debt and deficit grow and grow be followed by high inflation. There is no question that affects longterm rates and our constituents are suffering for that right now. And provide political coverage. What is our goal . Making tough choices including conducting top to bottom of the federal Government Spending asking hard questions about the federal role rooting out parochial spending that is not help the national interest. Fighting revenue in a way that minimizes Economic Growth and opportunity impacts. Reform of the critically important but currently unsustainable entitlement programs which was talked about in a charm and you had it just right. We have got to save these programs if we dont as the rank member said Social Security benefits will be cut substantially in 2023 or 2024 24 general fill benefits bankrupt the country we know that in terms of budget reform it would be great if the commission took a crack at that. And if you would agree thats needed. The first step of any commission is a tell the American People the truth about what is going on. They know that something is not right for they know the current trajectory is unsustainable. Theyre looking for an honest assessment and it kind of honest dialogue about the way forward. One that is right down the middle. That is maybe the most important part of the commission. Theres a lot of valid structures for a commission. Some of you again have your own proposals not saying one is better than the other. Having members of congress and some external folks involved who are real experts is important. I think to brute the commission would report the lame duck session of congress after the 2024 elections that is assuming it keeps going soon. The question was, what has worked and what hasnt worked . I think the law establishing the commission will fasttrack consideration culminated with a vote without amendment for a solution by qualified majority. That is the important thing of doing a Statutory Commission as opposed to others that have been tried. This base realignment and closure process for them in five backgrounds you know each round created an average of 12 billion in savings. That was tough going. But it did work in that sense but another model would be 81 Greenspan Commission was a Bipartisan Group of experts and members of congress. They say the government one is 65 billion extended to life in Social Security by 30 years. That is not bad. This had been extended for longer than that 30 years is not bad. We mention their competence of package reforms as you know is not pass in the congress. Its estimated by 2015 congress had enacted around 60 of reductions in spending those reforms that were proposed it did make a difference. We can talk more about that. We look from the failures to what did it worked it was established by executive order without congressional approval there was no enforcement mechanism to ensure a vote would occur but also the Commission Said he had to get 15 18 members to agree pray that was a majority. That is just too high. It turned out to be a standard that was too hard to meet. So look, when americans take a look at us today here in congress in washington they often despair what they see his deep divisions i wish more could tune into events like this today. Were i think you are seeing mattoon republicans and democrats the ability to look for the future together to collaborate in search of a solution for thats best for the country thank you for the Committee Members who were your willingness to take on the fiscal challenge and look at new approaches for bipartisan Fiscal Commission thank you. Thank you. Chairman conrad five minutes you could serve precooked thank you, mr. Chairman. Ranking member boyle, members of the committee at first i want to recognize the important work you all have done. Congressman you have advanced a serious proposal it takes guts to do that. Interment you have certainly led the charge on having a commission so we can wrestle with these issues with a mechanism that will allow bipartisan cooperation. So i want to recognize that. I also want to take a minute to recognize chairman yarmouth is someone who i have an enormously high regard for. It is an outstanding Committee Chairman my former intern has succeeded him and his congressional seat morgan. I am delighted to be with him today. And it chairman was known both sides of the isle of some of the great we admire that. I got them both sides that people recognize are the Budget Committee chairman serious member. And on a personal note if i could say your father is one of my alltime favorites. Budget Committee Chairman i work at them closely when he was the president s chief of staff. Really, what are my favorite members. Ive given a formal statement that understand it will be part of the record. I thought i would summarize going forward. First of all i believe we have reached a defining moment. Our Fiscal Affairs are completely off track efforts one thing we are bipartisan agreement on. We are off in the weeds and weve got to get back on track. Its already too high level. Our debt is now over 33 trillion as senator portman indicated. I should also in his head of omb he and i are having discussions about how it could do a bipartisan plan to get us back on track at that time. I found him to be really a remarkably good partner in that effort. Our debt is now over 122 of our gdp. Cdo tells us we are headed for a debt of 192 of gdp. There is almost no economists who would not say that challenges the fiscal integrity of the United States. Considerable part of that debt is held by foreign powers. That clearly compromises our global independence. Writing deficits and debt are economic and a National Security concern for the effect on the economy is really quite clear. We see heightened inflation, surging Interest Rates, that is damaging our Economic Growth and future income. Deficits and death dont matter i say look to history. Ask the germans after world war i when they had to take a wheelbarrow full of cash and ask them for what happened leading to world war ii. Look to our own history. Clinton administration balance the budget the economic benefits it flowed from that are clear. Record job creation. Record Economic Growth. Record reductions in poverty. Those are facts. Of course deficits and debt matter. They may not matter immediately but over time it is clear and compelling that they matter. Rising debt means rising interest costs as Interest Rates rise as well. All we have to do is look at her three major trust funds. Social security, the trustee say it will be insolvent by 2033. Meaning a cut to every Social Security beneficiary of 24 . Medicare trustees say will be insolvent by 2031. We do not have the revenue, the benefits will have to be reduced. That is the law. Highway trust fund headed for insolvency in 2028 require a cut of 47 . So what could be more clear . We are headed for serious results if we do not act. We need to act now the political system seems illequipped parties are to divided special interest to strong incentives to attack anyone who proposes solutions to inviting. The alternative i believe is to have a bipartisan Fiscal Commission. It has worked in the past. The Greenspan Commission in 1981 did extend the solvency of Social Security for more than 30 years. The process saved tremendously on the accounts of our National Defense and improved military efficiency and preparedness. And although the total recommendations were not adopted i did serve as a foundation for the budget control act of 2011. The strength of a commission. The strength of a commission is to bridge partisan divide. It provides a mechanism for both sides to Work Together to solve problems. To be effective i believe everything is got to be on the table. And by everything i mean everything. Entitlements, domestic discretionary, revenue. The longer we wait, the more draconian these solutions are te going to have to be. The longer we wait the longer the draconian solutions will have to be thats a mathematical certainty. I also believe commission to be effective has to be truly bipartisan. Members from both chambers, both parties, outside experts and i believe the white house. I thought those on these strengths was to have the white house involvement after all youve got to have all stakeholders. Everybody is going to have to be involved in getting the legislation passed and signed. I also think it is critical and up or down vote on the product. We are at a critical juncture the commission may be the best shot we have two help us get back on track. The parties divide just as our fiscal trajectory seems unsustainable. But all parties can be part of the solution. I believe a Bipartisan Commission is the most promising opportunity to begin this work. Thank you for holding this important hearing precooked chairman, thank you so much we now yield five minutes to chairman womack. I think the chairman and the Ranking Member. And what an awesome very humbling experience this is for me too sit with these luminaries these distinguished gentlemen from the senate. Senator portman and senator conrad and my dear dear dear friend jon yarmouth the work he did, the work that we did and the absolute cooperation and respect we gave each other. Mr. Chairman i am so proud of you. For those who do not know and i was asked to cochair the joint select and speaker ryan called me in his office and asked me too do this. I said im willing he gave me the structure that had been provided for by law at i knew that before members of the house, or of the senate each party and i said but in order to do this im going to ask i have one request its just like hiring a coach i need to bring an assistant with me. That i know and can trust. And he said who do you want . I said i want jodey arrington. But he is a freshman. I want jodey arrington. Jody you never disappoint me. Im so very proud of you and Brendan Boyle remarkable person a dear friend and the work you are doing. Thank you into the other panelist some served with me when is chairman of this committee that are still here today i am totally grateful for all the work all you do i am encouraged either recent public support for the Fiscal Commission that would address the challenges our nation is facing. And as has been mentioned some of the themes i trump here this morning have already been covered and deserve to be repeated. One of the Biggest Challenges is the size of the sovereign debt. And the fact that it is growing. Truly where the greatest threats to american prosperity. While some would argue the greatest threat, i would hasten to remind everybody in here that in my strong opinion the greatest threat to the republic as we know it is the division in the body politic. Exhibit a is what is going on right now. This congress is going to hell to muster the courage to fix this. We can no longer hide behind the politics of everything. We have to come together. It is a National Security issue. It is an Economic Security issue. Hence the American Public is relying on us to fix this. We are having a long and drawn out food fights as i call it over Discretionary Spending. This has been going on i have come to congress. That is not our problem. It is what we fight most about on spending. But it is not our problem. Without reforms, without considering everything on the table as senator conrad has just articulated, the trust funds of medicare and Social Security the two biggest programs face insolvency. We need to tackle the fiscal dysfunction and i believe a Fiscal Commission as part of that. Not mr. Chairman i will also tell you that in order for this to be successful we have to win the hearts and minds of the people we serve. And somehow we have to make our constituents subject Matter Experts on our situation because its not happening to them as we speak unless of course theyre recognizing the inflationary spirals that are happening. The fact that no Home Mortgage rates and that is when it began to dawn on people but then it becomes too late. So we have to find a way to educate the people we serve. So i am a strong believer in a fiscal state of the union. In my opinion the fiscal state of the union would serve a far greater purpose in our annual state of the union. Now this joint select committee that jody and i and my Ranking Members served on did a lot of great work. The good thing about the work is while it did not get across the finish line, it is still great work. And it still provides at least a blueprint for where we can go from here. The ideas and the changes and they reforms are advocated for in the annual appropriations, annual reconciliation, all of those things and others that did not make it into the proposal, they are still fresh and they will still work if we can just muster the courage to take them on. But that proposal developed with input from members and all stakeholders across the board the cochair and i agreed to the basic text additional amendments were added. Bipartisan ideas were found. Proposals were explored for future reformers and we went to vote too. I do not know if you remember this, but the request was we needed to pause on the vote because of expedited procedures in the senate. And get some assurance that nothing was going to be placed into the proposal that had nothing to do with the proposal. You remember. We never got that assurance. And so in the final vote was taken as i recall there were five republicans, the minimum needed for it. There were two democrats one issitting right here to my left. That were for it. But for members on the democrat side voted present. They loved the ideas but they needed assurance this was not going to be a vehicle by which other non germane issues were going to be attached. That is the problem with washington and that is what we need to fix. I have strayed from my prepared remarks because i get really emotional about these things. But i will say as senator conrad said that whatever we do and however we proceed every single possibility has to be on the table. For to remove a proposal or an option from the table only increases the draconian cost if you will of the remaining items. Senator portman said the good news is we have a little time. Which is the absolute worst thing you can say to the United States congress. [laughter] i will finish this way. This is a matter of urgency. It is imperative that the congress begin to act immediately. The failure to do so could indeed signal the end of the republic as we know it. Without mr. Chairman i yield back the balance of my time for glaxo chairman thank you for your remarks. I will now yield to the good gentleman from the commonwealth for five minutes. Thank you very much chairman arrington, Ranking Member and members of the committee. Let me echo and underline the kind comments mr. Womack has made senator conrad and others it is a great honor for me too be part of this panel. Even though im going to be that proverbial objects in the punch bowl. And say when i was steve lomax Ranking Member and he was my Ranking Member and i cannot imagine having have a more mutually respectful, collegial and Serious Partnership and the two of us have had and still have. I was proud to come and see if you remarks when his portrait was unveiled here. I hope he will return when i am here to unveiled my portrait. But anyway, i am honored to be for the committee i once chaired to discuss proposals to create another and i said that with purposeful skepticism commission on the federal fiscal condition having served in congress during a period that saw at least four different attempts to assist conquerors with the amendment one of its most fundamental jobs i can only characterize this new Commission Proposal as the proverbial definition of insanity. During the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. As has been discussed or spent a large amount of time in 2018 as a member the joint select committee on budget and appropriation process reform under the very thoughtful leadership mr. Womack. I was constantly impressed with the seriousness of the committees discussions and hearings. Many people from outside and inside of congress offered their thoughts on how we could reform our budgeting process and appropriations process. Primarily reducing our annual deficit from the National Debt. While some of the other members of that committee i believe the process eliminated one fairly obvious but unavoidable truth. The problem is not the process it is the people. In other words if member of congress are not willing and is a phrase has already been used to muster the determination and courage to take on challenges even the best ideas will never be implemented. I would argue the same conclusion could be reached about task force and Simpson Bowles commission. Even those who think the 2011 budget control act was effective muster member the only reason it was enacted was because it avoided a default on our debts. And that virtually every year we weighed the budget caps because they were impractical and unpopular and there was bipartisan relief when that law expired in 2021. Plus the commission established under that law could not reach a consensus on any new course of action and by the way the National Debt doubled during the 10 years the budget cap of the 2011 acts were ineffective. Every one of these efforts stems from the presumption that our debt and deficits are unsustainable but i heard that argument every one of the 16 years i served in this body. I am sure it back during the Lincoln Administration when thee National Debt reach 1 billion, people were wearing their leaving at unsustainable burden on the grandchildren. I know that they were sitting on the debt reach a trillion dollars during the reagan years it. Correct me if i am wrong i do not know one grandchild whos ever been asked to repay a penny of that debt. I have two young grandsons the last thing i worry about for them as they will have to pay back some of the National Debt. If you believe, as most do it would better for us to not have chili and dollar annual deficits and 33 trillion in debts the course of action is not a mystery. We their cut spending or raise revenues or both. Doing that is congress job not a commission or task force. Not even that bipartisan Bicameral Committee we had in 2018. I would like to call for other suggestions. Why not have the Oversight Committee actually do oversight on some of the more expensive government activities and seat were money can be saved rather than holding waste full hearings on Hunter Bidens laptop for it when i have the ways and Means Committee explore the Social Security and medicare programs to see how the conditions can be strengthened . And let me say as an aside on Social Security everybody says its only three courses of action on Social Security raise revenues, raise the retirement age or reduced benefits theres another answer. The only reason the trust fund is an issue is because the law says benefits have to paid out of the trust fund. They can change the loss of benefits are paid on the general fund for the trust fund issue goes away like that. There is another way congress can act because congress basically sets the Interest Rate that the Social Security trust fund gets from the government. The premiums come in, Social Security updates come in the treasury issues balance of the trust fund they are not normal government bonds they are bones with special issue they cannot be marketed there an Image Congress sets the formula four. There are options available to us that it takes serious thoughts from congress. What else can we do . Energy in Congress Committee could same thing with medicaid. While they are at that one they can look at the Oil Subsidies that cost us billions. Not only have direct costs but an enormous impact. And finally, may be this committee can actually analyze the National Debt issue to determine whether the debt we have and will have is really unsustainable or not. How can we judge that moving forward . It cannot be just looking at a graph with constantly rising line getting scared. One final thought is that commissions and task force do not have souls. Hopefully members of congress do. A government without a soul is not a functioning government regardless of how much or how little it costs. I look forward your questions. I think the chairman. We need to make sure we have attainable aspirations in this committee. So to suggest were going to need members of congress to have a soul is a really difficult spark to this conversation. I went to ask any questions i want to make a comment and then im going to defer to my colleagues. It is so unfortunate that our conferences have called meetings at 11 00 oclock both sides and i hate that because this is the beginning of very important conversation. I just want you to know my desire and what i will work towards accomplishing is inviting both the democrats and the republicans in our conference more broadly in an auditorium to have a bipartisan discussion and panel q a with you all here. We will have more time for discussion. We have to break. I will probably stay until 1150. Some members will leave just understand that is what that is about. Im going to resist making any more comments. I appreciate the diverse opinions and the contrarian views. Now lets debate and seek the counsel of our gentleman in front of us. Going to defer for my set of questions can i do that . Can he ask my questions . I think its all right. Let me do that i yield five minutes lets try to make it as quickly as we can to let everybody have the time to ask a question. I do not to shock everybody shop everybodyspecial myself buh what jon said hes either got a lot wiser since he Left Congress or i got a lot dumber. One way or another we had meeting of the mines. Shakespeare put it best the fault dear brutus relays not in our stars but in ourselves we are underlings. All the cya commissions we can think of wont work without people willing to make hard decisions. There is no substitute for leadership and courage and common sense. The budget process only works when the house leadership is willing to exercise that courage and common sense i make fiscal responsibility in absolute priority and insist on it throughout the house appeared under Newt Gingrich and john kasich we had that leadership. We have that determination we had a president who is really to work with them and we balance the budget for years in a row and sets it this country back on course towards fiscal balance. The chairman is correct we have not done our jobs. So its just easier to blame the process and now we propose to him that hot potato off to an commission exercising superhuman wisdom that we have not been able to summon. What our constituents complain we have to say its in the hands of a Bipartisan Commission and they will figure it out. Well we miss the central point. The Bipartisan Commission in this nation is called congress. This congress as imperfect as it is, it is clear that these decisions must be made. Passing the buck simply not the answer because the buck stops here. A dollar cannot be spent by this government until and unless this house says it can be spent. So there is no substitute for congress. If it has not worked recently we need to look at ourselves and not farm it out to others. There is no shortage of experts, think tanks, left, right, center with every conceivable solution to our problem are really good, some are really bad and it is our job to know the difference and to act accordingly. There has been a house rule since 1836 that forbids any expenditure of funds not authorized by law. That provision requires the oversight and review that mr. Yarmouth recommends but we always waive that rule, there billions of dollars at programs whose authorization has expired it decades ago and go about our business as if nothing has happened. The budget process in place offers a logical stepbystep process for responsible serious and budgeting if we would simply use it. It didnt work when congress used it and insisted on it. It is true we are badly divided by partisanship because the American People are badly divided by partisanship plant what is congress but a reflection of the people. Any member of congress they were still behave like a mob. This diet because of bad decisions that can only be corrected here it cannot be ignored much longer. What we held is about to catch up with us and as lincoln once said the two right at the occasion. And save our country. Anything you would like to add . I never thought i would be inviting this but your testimony is spot on progress i appreciate that no, he never thought we would agree on anything either. [laughter] and you might have mentioned this as well if you go back and look at greenspan youre talking 1981 it was a different world in 1981 in terms of geopolitical climate in this country. We had liberals and conservatives in both parties theorists always something you could find Common Ground with the other party that does not exist anymore. He have become on most issues depart for parties division we do not take the time. Quick start process it does work after a fashion. The reason we built that beautiful building was to do one thing and one thing only it was to talk out our differences. And we need to get back to that. We absolutely do. I have not been that out of it so long i cannot say we still. Congress can be the role models that will help the people change their perspective about said spent the summer from california time is expired i now recognize Ranking Member boyle from pennsylvania for any questions. Thank you. Mr. Chairman first i would ask quite eight wonder list so bear with me. I ask unanimous consent to include into the record the following. A statement for the record from max rickman ceo of the National Committee to reverse Social Security and medicare. Congressional testimony statement for the record from the american consideration of government employees. A letter to both of us from asked me. Eight letter for the record from the bipartisan policy center. A piece from the center on budget and policy parties written by sharon parent and Joel Freedman and finally a letter to the both of us from strengthen Social Security. Regard to all the above without objections ordered. Thank you, mr. Chairman. So, following your lead given the unfortunate timing both of our caucuses have called for internal meetings beginning at 11 00 a. M. I will defer my questions than an yield to mr. Hagan pair before i do i will say one thing pretty want to underscore something that chairman womack said and it is beyond just this committee. Our internal divisions as a congress and increasingly as a country is a massive National Security threats. And all of us as elected officials have a real responsibility, a solemn responsibility to not play into that or exacerbated. But to attempt to heal the divide. Because if not we are going down a very dangerous road with that i would yield to mr. Higgins. We will give mr. Higgins is full five minutes per. Thank you, mr. Chairman thinking member and came member and for the panel here. I would prefer to look at this issue from a position of strength. The United States is 5 the worlds population, we are 25 of the worlds economy. We look at every measure it is reported clearly in the economist magazine about the growth of american prosperity within a world contest. In 1990 america represented 40 of the wealth. The top seven economies in the world. Today is 58 . You look at productivity. You look at the workforce in america it far exceeds that for the last 20 years of europe, china, of japan, and an economy does best when we invest in the growth of the American Economy. So when we look at debt and deficit we look at the contemporary history and america grows down its debt and deficit when the economy grows. So finding ways to expand the middle class is essential to thedebt and deficit over the lor term. Peter drucker the great harvard economist of 1960s and 70s said the whole purpose of creating an economy is to create a middle class. They pay our taxes. They fight our wars. They protect our neighborhoods. They teach our children. They take care of our people in terms of healthcare. The strength of a society generally is viewed based on the size of your middleclass. So i think that is essentially important. You think about all of the difficulties people overcome as a nation between the age of the pandemic went nobody was lining up for russian and chinese vaccines they are lining up for american vaccines that messenger Rna Technology that was developed with taxpayer dollars, tax payer dollars over a 30 year period its the genetic materials that tells the cell to make a protein which is the active ingredient in the vaccine. It saved a Million People. And helped cure another 45 Million People. Twelve mike the top universities in the world of the top universities in the world are in the United States. We are a dynamic economy. We are an innovative economy we are a destination for people all over the world that want to experience the american dream. When they succeed, we succeed as a nation. So i appreciate all the talk about how horrible things are but let me tell you something, it aint all that horrible. Bloomberg analytics in february of this year, 15 economist focus in on 15 areas of the American Economy. They said, not me, joe biden is on his way to be the greatest job producing president in the history of the United States for the Unemployment Rate is at a 54 year low. Last year at this time inflation was at 8. 1 s. Now its down to about 3 and it continues to come down. Many democrats and republicans profess to be concerned only about the American People and the American Economy. I believe that. I believe that but i think all of us would be much better off on the strength of america as a basis from which to grow and deal with our problems and stop pointing fingers because historically each party has played a role and responsibility for the decline. Each party should also be embracing, celebrating the great economy that is built and that of which is america. I would say tuesday former chair of this committee your views about how we can use strengthens the American Economy and the dynamic nature of the American Economy would be a context of Global Economy to continue to grow and create opportunities for the American People. I appreciate your comments mr. Higgins. But i would say is, i think when you look at the American Economy this is the question everybody should ask that we are talk about debt and deficits. 33 trillion the vast majority of that 33 trillion represents investments the government is made in the American People money so it into the economist gone into the American Peoples hands. And until the fed began raising the Interest Rates, just a year end a half or so ago you could make a pretty strong case National Debt grew significant amount without any negative impact on the economy, on the strength of the dollar, on the Interest Rates and or inflation. The pandemic changed everything and create a situation which will take years to analyze. We went from basically 2008 until 2020 with a huge growth in the federal debt and again no negative impact on any of this key factors. So that is why i suggest we really not before we Start Talking about whether the debt and deficit are a problem we ought to actually try to get a really good look at what is sustainable and what is not. And we are a sovereign currency we can print all of the money we want to serve the people whom we serve. Something to worry about and again with a Strong Economy making a pretty strong case that its not holding us back at this point. The gentlemans time is expired. We have a three minute q a period. I know theres a lot of folks who want to ask questions and we will have to do this again. We are a divided country. I heard comments to the other side of the aisle. Theres a whole another world out there does not feel the universities are what they should be. A difficulty buying a house or car today are about the toughest i can remember in my lifetime. It really threatens the middle class. On Social Security we can look at the general fund as a whole. As far as Social Security is one thing we cant cut because we made promises to the American People, there are some politicians who like to brag im so tough im going to cut Social Security. Im going to ask you whether in your experience here people have talked about getting back to our constitution and i realize it might be relatively small. When i look at all of the people around here to deal with housing or the federal government responsibility to deal with education or income transfer payments or commerce, it drives me up the wall because our forefathers never would have guessed to this degree we get involved in these things. Are there any things youve been involved with have you looked at what the deficit would be if we transferred all this stuff back to the states and said these may be good programs and they may not be. We are broke you should talk to your state legislature and see where we lined up if we took all these programs and said here are the states, you decide where you want to raise the revenue for them. I talked about looking at the role of the federal government. You stated its grown dramatically over time and the spending is a country has gone about 16 years ago today 6 trillion and about 6. 3 trillion now. Do you think the American Public is persuadable that there are certain things that are state and local the federal government has to get rid of them and we balance the budget that way . There are but we have to remind ourselves that although we ought to do that and i said that in my testimony and i believe it about 70 of the spending today is nonviolent so its not part of that. That includes interest on the data but significantly as was said earlier some of it was unconstitutional but go ahead. Thats what we have to realize that we are not going to solve the problem, but its a big part of what i think any commission ought to do is top to bottom review and look at what the federal rule is and in some cases the states should take a big responsibility and i think you look historically and thats been the case. Also in terms of the Interest Rates you are right its not just a coincidence. Theyve already downgraded the debt and threatened to do so and that raises the longterm rate to the point that as you indicate we have constituents who are paying 8 of their mortgage and car payments are out of control so this is directly related to this problem. Both by the way said the dysfunction in washington and the fiscal crisis, the impending crisis is what influenced them to say im not sure this american debt ought to get a high rating anymore so it directly relates to the Interest Rates and therefore to your constituency and others suffering in this economy because of high inflation and Interest Rates. Thank you. The chair recognizes ms. Schakowsky. Thank you mr. Chairman. I admire the tone that has predominated. I do not feel a single one it seems to me as we talk about the Fiscal Commission, and i agree with my dear friend that we have when we have a functioning congress, when we have a functioning house of representatives announced the tools to be able to deal with these questions. I want to focus mostly on Social Security and medicare that always seems to come up as a target. Along with both the Simpson Bowles commission senator. I have my own position because i was worried about Social Security and medicare and offered my own proposal. We didnt get one at all. Social security right now is so modest what we are talking about an average of 17,536 a year and about 2,000 less for women. Medicare right now there are 57 million americans and 8 Million People with disabilities that rely on it. I agree with the Ranking Member that what we ought to do if we come up with a fiscal answer is ask the wealthiest americans to pay a bit more not to cut what we call entitlement. Social security people pay every single paycheck to get that money when they retire and to call it an entitlement is just absolutely wrong. So i want to ask the former chair of the committee what is your view on how we deal with those issues that affect Everyday Americans in the deepest sense and what do you think that we should do . I certainly dont have all the answers, but i think again as a congress we spent virtually no time analyzing the way the government operates services that we provide the funding mechanisms. I was on the Oversight Committee my first term in congress. We never did oversight on any one program. We were busy investigating the Bush Administration and of course we had the financial crisis in 2008 and spent a lot of time on that. But this congress doesnt do nearly enough to analyze the activities that we do and we all complain about taxes. A lot of people complain about raising taxes but we have one of the lowest tax burdens as a federal government than any developed country in the world. We dont like doing that. We have a complicated problem because we have some states that have heavy tax burdens into some that have none that adds to the total impact on the citizens but by and large again 33 trillion, those investments we made in the people and at the people rely on those investments and rely on Social Security and as you said. Two thirds of the people on Social Security that represents more than half of their income. A third of them its their entire income and i think the one thing we have to look at also is in terms of medicare there are positive signs going on with medicare as we drive Prescription Drug prices down and research is costly and more manageable. I think it is Congress Responsibility to spend more time focused on what we do and how we do it. I will now recognize myself for some brief comments. First i would like to submit for the record several organizations that have an input including the committee for the importance of a bipartisan Fiscal Commission. I sent it to the chair pretty quickly. This is the only reason im here. I sat and watched for 20 years. I agree i absolutely agree this is the Place Congress is the Bipartisan Group that should absolutely do this. Im not going to sit her down and watch for another 20 years not being able to do it and bipartisan Fiscal Commission will not be easy for any Single Person on this side of the aisle or the site of the aisle to vote for but the fundamental problem is that we havent had a chance to vote on it yet. The members on the lower part, we all want to fix this and be part of the solution. We need a catalyst so that it comes to the floor and as ive talked to every speaker i didnt expect to have this many but every single time i said we have to have a Debt Commission because congress has failed to do this. I sat there for 20 years kind of watching like why cant we get this figured out. Utah has a Rainy Day Fund and i get federal government is different than state government. But we have not fixed the problem. We knew baby boomers were going to start retiring at a rapid rate so what did we do in the years prior to that . We didnt solve the problem or prepare for when baby boomers were going to start to enroll at a rapid rate and if you look at it from 94208 its like to million almost a year so we have a fundamental problem we didnt prepare for. This Fiscal Commission is going to bypass leadership and get to the floor and be able to vote and all the work that was done from all of you on this panel will be included because you had an amazing thought and the direction we just have to make action happen and i feel comfortable for every single one of us. Senator portman, the questions i had anything to the structure of this that will create the right type of outcome, did you speak to anything from the record of the bipartisan manner to solve some of these problems anything that you would like to mention that needs to be sound with of this commission so we can actually get something done . I appreciate your passion for this issue but much more importantly that you realize congress has not been able to solve the balance. People say when john was chairman of the committee we had a balanced budget. The leadership representative to the Budget Committee. Ladies and gentlemen it was an entirely different situation. Forget the fact they are working better together. We were not in the physical hold we are in now we are talking about a 2 trilliondollar deficit versus a zero deficit. We were looking at about 60 of gdp and today 100 to 20 . Its a different a bowl game so we are in a situation i believe where if we dont fix it, we are going to haves some very tough adjustments to these entitlement programs, the economy, the Interest Rates and the inflation over time is going to eat up more and more of our paychecks from our constituents. Interest rates alone, think about this, whats that going to do to the deficits . So weve got to do something. The worst Case Scenario on a bipartisan basis is not able to come up with something but at least weve got this issue raised and we are talking about it. Second case at least youre talking about it. All of you and the committee ought to be for that because it once the dish you to be front and center and i said i applaud you all because a lot of you have taken the lead on this issue. I want to hear from him because he is one that has and it takes guts to do it. We will go to representative peters in california. Its probably a bad signal but i appreciate the witnesses and i try to deal with my three minutes as well. Im frustrated with the inability to deal with this in congress. I thought it would work better. The budgets, 75 of the congress came in with me in 2013 or after. We all postdate that and since ive been here the budgets are political. Its a difficult race. Its a political document. It isnt working here and i dont think the American People would give us much about that so yes we have the power to do it but we do seem to have the will to do it and i worry we dont have the capacity to do it. Weve gotten out of the mechanics that seemed natural as a trial to settle cases that was part of what we did. That doesnt happen here. We make speeches about with the best answer is and then weve made our record and we havent made progress. It is a different situation. Now we are borrowing 2 trillion a year putting groceries on the credit card and as a result of that at this year we are spending 663 billion in interest. That isnt going to any good use. Thats paying for what we did in the past. As a democrat i wanted to be Child Tax Credit. I think that is the most important investment we can do. Its expensive. I cant afford it, cant make that argument. I would also say finally the answer has to be bipartisan. Its obvious to me politics is as much of the fact is arithmetics or anything else and heres why i think democrats should be interested in the Commission Like the one i proposed but there are other variations one on medicare and Social Security. I think that there are people who want to cut medicare and Social Security. I am on jan schakowskys side. I want to preserve that program. But current law doesnt provide for general funding. Current law doesnt provide for the good integrity proposal that mr. Larson proposed. The current law is going to cut debt by 23 or 25 and when the lines cross if you want to cut medicare and Social Security, what you do is nothing because you already have that battle. If you want to save it, the sooner you do it at the better off you are. I dont see that happening without a commission. And the other thing is on tax cuts. They were proven out to cost 1. 9 trillion which by the way every year we are borrowing that amount so it wasnt all that much of an unusual event. And we will see the same pressure to extend those 2025. If we dont have a cop on the beat in the commission we will have the same conversation where im told these things pay for themselves. They need to push back on that and we need people in the room dealing with facts. I dont see a way to do but other than the commission. I hope that we will get around that and its the only practical way. We have proven over 20 years but this doesnt work. People come to me now and they say back in 1993 it was this way and in 1983 we did it this way. This isnt about to place and im here long enough to see we are not making deals or talking facts. Im going to say finally this chairman and this Ranking Member have been very good and set a good example for how to not to be performative. We still are not getting the job done and we need a kick in the pants for people in the room dealing with facts outside experts and members working together we should give it a shot and i will yield back. If i could yield 30 seconds i want to point to something else. To make ourselves feel a little bit better, everyone cites reagan, tip oneill Social Security back in 1983. The part of the story that is a wonderfully inspiring story and i appreciate it, the part of the story that is sometimes left out was weeks away from missing Social Security checks. That is how dire it was. So to the point you made the fact that we do have about a decade until 2023 it helps us in terms of the numbers right now but given the human nature actually hurts us. As we remember, lets not forget that they did wait until the last minute before they finally acted and with that i will yield back. Thank you. The chairmans concern and that of most of the witnesses about the National Debt and the need for the congress to do more to put us on a sound financial footing i am a progressive democrat. I believe we are not doing enough on childcare and Educational Opportunity from prek to postgrad to the Climate Crisis to ensuring retirement security. And healthcare of course but all of those things cost money and i believe in paying as you go and that we cannot shift the cost of doing all those things on to future generations. I understand the skepticism based on the Prior Experience with these commissions i think they primarily said in the elevated discussion it kept the issue out there. But i dont see all that much accomplished from them and i certainly am against any commission that has as its primary objective to remove accountability or minimize accountability for congress from medicare and Social Security. And that of course is against the background where the one time we did achieve a balanced budget and we are on the path to reduce the debt in the clinton administration. That didnt take the commission. It took political courage and it was costly to some of the people the courage to vote to help us get on a balanced budget path. I think there are a number of proposals representative peters referenced the idea on Social Security i think it has some good points and flaws. Theres a proposal out about the future of medicare and how to finance it. Im not sure there is the will in congress to get this done and that is why im open at least to the idea of a Fiscal Commission. I think it has to be a commission that clearly puts revenue on the table because of the revenues are not on the table, it is a commission to cut Social Security and medicare is the Ranking Member pointed out with some of the statements hes filed into something i care about deeply. And i guess my question to the senators, based on your experience, is it a mechanism, its impossible for the republican colleagues to count any kind of inquiry for any purpose it seems. It is such a commission a place where we might find Common Ground not only looking at areas of excessive Government Spending growth, but looking at the revenues to help us get through the balance . Can i just respond quickly, mr. Chairman, and say a group of six of us in the senate, three democrats, three republicans were asked by the leadership to see if we couldnt come up with a way forward to adopt the principles and make whatever changes are necessary to be in the position to pass something. We worked for two years. Three democrats, three republican. At the end of that time we put out a proposal that have significant revenue and also savings on the spending side. I was asked to explain how did you get this kind of resolve, how did you get republicans to agree. He said we spent two years going over all of the options and the effects on the people that we represent. At the end of the day. There were democrats, some of the most progressive democrats in the United States senate agreeing to savings on the spending side. So to me, i completely agree with mr. Mcclintock this is the responsibility of congress. They are not doing it. Whats the deal with the reality. I agree entirely with the statement about the greatness, the strength of america. I agree with every word he said. But at the end of the day, we are headed for the 24 cut to every Social Security beneficiary. Thats whats going to happen. We could avoid that and opt fort what the chairman is suggesting. That is a serious alternative. But that isnt the law. It is everybody is going to be cut 24 . To ask a question i wanted to just highlight one thing. We have something good going on right now. We have one of the senior members on our side saying we dont need this. We have members in the on the democratic side questions. Mandatory spending that was representing over 70 of the budget. That wasnt the case 20, 30, 40 years ago. Its a different scenario we are in now. Its not postworld war ii and all of a sudden get the debt to gdp back on track. Its just to share some context with the change and where we are now and then when i didnt have prepared for you and we can talk about Interest Rates and stuff, we kind of covered that. Give me your sense for where the conference is right now. Ive seen a lot of discussions knowing its not going to be a perfect pristine bill thats going to be tough for everybody. Do you feel something similar . Do you think theres an urgency and willingness to engage in this . Thanks for the question. The famous bank robber when asked why he robbed banks said because thats where the money is. And as i said in my opening, we spend an enormous amount of time and spend a lot of Political Capital talking about the discretionary budget. Chairman presiding mr. Moore, you are correct if you go back to 1965, Discretionary Spending was clearly the largest piece of the federal budget. 65 give or take. And then now in 2023, its completely flipped. At 70 plus on mandatory so that should illustrate to everyone that has just basic fifth grade arithmetic that if youre going to fix a 2 trilliondollar deficit and indeed quit digging this hole deeper, you cant do it on Discretionary Spending. You can barely scratch the surface. At the discretionary budget we are debating right now is enough trillion and a half dollar range and we know that its going to be upwards of 2 trillion. We know that the net interest on the debt is going to be north of 650 billion so we are going to have to muster the courage to deal with it now. Your question about where republicans stand on it. Let me just cover both sides of the aisle. One side would like to take the option off the table of any cuts or any reforms. Not necessarily any reforms, but any reform that is proposed and when i did my budget lost in this room, but in this committee that balanced it in a nine year window remember the one thing that we did that never made it to the floor but made it into our budget, we just tried to do something really simple and that is equalize the age of medicare eligibility for Social Security, move the retirement age for 65 with qualification 65 to 67. You would have thought i canceled the day of the week. So my argument is if you cant do Something Like that, then what can you do to fix the bigger problem and when you look to my friends in my caucus when you Start Talking about any additional revenue is, well thats handsoff. Thats why when the senator conrad said, and i totally agree and look, i know when this is over and its published that the next ad against me is going to be this guy wants to raise your taxes and what i am simply saying is when you are this deep in the hole you better consider every available option on the table or else youre never going to fix the problem and thats why its going to require the courage of the American People and why we have to make the constituents subject Matter Experts because i believe this, that if our constituents knew across the spectrum of this great country that this was the near term biggest National Security and economic challenge facing our country, they would step up to the plate and say i will do my part. Thats what americans do. I will do my part. But they dont trust this congress because we always have some way around it. We always have an exit ramp. We always have some other way of deferring the challenge. So again, chairman moore, i would tell you that if we can educate our constituents and make them subject Matter Experts whether its a commissioner physical state of the union or any other mechanism, i think that we would be on the road to solving the problem and being able to take the heat but the members would fade away whether its restructuring or whether its revenues were any other available option. Sorry to belabor the point. Thank you and i would like to add every town hall you come to me is a five or six slide presentation that we do and my former consultant coming out. I do try to educate people and understand why we are in the situation we are and i just avoid rhetoric and tell people to practice and when i do, they actually appreciate it. So im trying to do my part. Thirty to 40 person. The chair recognizes my good friend from california and son of the leader part of the group. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being here. I completely agree with you and that is something obviously i heard plenty of times from that depicted fortunate over there is that everything needs to be on the table. I completely agree with you. The problem is from what ive seen in my limited time here and what i try to convince my father is i do believe it despite some in this room, weve lost the art of legislating. We have not gotten to the point that we have given that time needed to develop the policy upon which then we can educate the people and that that has a lot to do with leadership and so many other things we can go on and on about. But i think that is to our detriment because when we dont have policy to rely on, then we are left with politics and then we dont have that will to lean into the policy and politics sort of dictates what we do. So, that is why i am a Firm Believer in the Fiscal Commission. Its why i am concerned about the increasing debt and deficits and to working across the aisle to put our country on the path of fiscal responsibility. And like the chairman said, and like many of you are stating, there just is the political will to get our fiscal house in order when we use the regular order unfortunately. The democrats were opposing spending cuts and republicans are opposing tax increases and we end up increasing and passing the tax cuts and ballooning deficits. Meanwhile we have a lack of action to shore up the trust funds and we are facing steep cuts to Social Security and medicaid in this decade. Thats why im a strong supporter of the commission and why im proud to introduce legislation that scott and bill put together in regards to this commission and as members of the bipartisan fiscal forum. And i do want to make something clear as we heard i do think everything should be on the table and that includes revenue. The United States is a low tax country ranking 32nd out of 38 in oecd countries in terms of tax to gdp ratio. I just think we will never come to an agreement if we take one half of that equation revenue off the table. Now, Brian Riddell Manhattan Institute said to something and i do believe it. The commissions can be useful if both parties are truly committed to achieving an outcome rather than just checking the box. And i think unfortunately, the way we legislate or dont legislate these days is we just check the box. Thats why i think we need to have this commission to help us get past the politics and help us actually focus on policies that will affect the future. I am out of time. I do have questions, but i will yield back. Thank you. The chair recognizes the gentleman from maryland. Thanks very much for this time and your efforts here together. I think im probably the only business guy in the room that has 12,000 employees and owns a 6 billiondollar business and i couldnt agree more with what he had to say. Everything he said i agree with 100 . And mr. Panetta, to keep developing politics, totally on board. Weve got to look at the whole piece. The revenue side, weve got to have that on the table. 3238 i hadnt heard that stat, but 35 on and now we are 21. The rate is roughly 12 . The g7 effective rate is 23 yet we are only taxing at 12. If weve given a complete free ride its 2 trillion in ten years. 200 billion a year that we should have for that Child Tax Credit. That is the kind of thing we should be doing. Those that are struggling. The children in poverty, thats what we need to get the money to drive but weve got to drive the revenue side. And i will tell you as a business person i dont think a decision to open a new business and open up my company to probably 20 new businesses this year to 25 next year based on the tax rate. We base it on our competition and can we then created one that pencils out and thats how we look at it. We dont say 35 or 21. That was donald trump. He is a fraud, a failure. Everybody in the Business World has always known that that he is a fraud and a failure and why every developer ive ever met said never do business with him. Hes crazy. Hes untrustworthy. Why do we touch him . To even use american banks because american banks have plenty of lending capacity that would lend to him. Thats how he ended up at deutsche bank. Bottom line we have to look at those things, drive the revenue side, but the proposal for Social Security, i love that proposal. Go to step. But weve got to look at everything. It cant just be one side or the other side. One quick question in my 30 seconds. Mr. Yarmuth, ive always loved working with you. Whats holding us back from a serious bipartisan discussion . Is it a special interest perhaps or are members of rate of a primary challenge . What is holding us back from talking about policy . I think as someone who by the way is one of your best customers, [laughter] former cochairman of the caucus i think its a combination of all those things and i think by and large mr. Womack has hit it on the head of the American People just are not savvy enough or knowledgeable enough about budget terminology budget dimensions. Its easy to say weve got 33 trillion worth of debt when they family has a net worth of maybe 10,000 and not expect them to think that things are out of hand. We just dont know. I know there are economists, and im not an economist who will say this is out of hand. Interest rates are going to go here. But if you look at the baby boomers, im one of them, we are going to disappear from the scene. How does that change the longterm outlook . I dont think the American People have enough information, and i dont think we have enough information to actually accurately portray where we are and if we cant do it, then the American People are not going to. They are going to be much more vulnerable to these rhetorical arguments and the exaggerations and so forth that is unfortunately what they get now. A lot more truth to the matter that allows such rhetoric and hyperbole. I totally agree with you about Business People making decisions on tax rates. I come from a family of businesspeople. My father had a fortune 500 company. Theyve never made a decision based on the tax rate. Thank you. I yield back. I thought you would have been a golf club salesman. Its interesting to find that out. The chair recognizes the gentleman from virginia, mr. Scott. Thank you mr. Chairman. First of all i want to dispel the idea that this is a both sides do it problem and remind people that every democratic president ial Administration Since kennedy is left for the republican successors a better deficit situation then they inherited without exception that every Republican Administration is left for the democratic successors a worse deficit situation then they inherited without exception and President Trump was on the way to fulfilling that trend before the pandemic one of the reasons is they dont paper tax cuts and so every time theres a tax cut [inaudible] here in 1993, conrad, you were here, and i think rob you voted on the 93 budget. You have just gotten here. It was contentious. It was down to the wire. Not a single republican voted for it and it put us on a trajectory to not only balancing but creating surpluses sufficient to paying off the National Debt of 2008, putting all the money back in the trust fund by 2013. When they talk about the historic balanced budget agreements in the mid90s, they ignore the fact that gingrich when he came in at 95 as the speaker shut the government down trying to dismantle the budget and couldnt do it because clinton wouldnt budge and the budget continued to exceed. If you wanted to know what the republicans had in mind, we found out in 2001 when they had the trifecta of the house, senate and president when you had massive tax cuts, two wars not paid for, Prescription Drugs not paid for, and all that a budget projection of paying off the National Debt evaporated. One of the reasons we had a differential in democrats and republicans is unpaid for tax cuts. So i would ask representative womack if you would agree as a condition of starting the commission an agreement that would go to take over tax cuts. I believe in any mechanism that can be enforced without congress deciding we are not going to enforce it. I think we can go back to pay go and have a conversation about whether it was actually enforced. But, so let me just say, or declaring my time under the democrats we pay for new spending and we paper tax cuts under the republican rule you pay for the spending but you do not have to paper tax cuts. I would agree if you are going to have any impact on the budget in a negative way you need to have a mechanism in place that either provides an offset that you will honor theyve been talking about starting a commission. I have no time left so that we just pose some questions. If you want to answer them fine but im going to oppose them anyway. The Ranking Member pointed out that the public given the choice of taxing people over the present limit 116,000 on Social Security would rather do that than a sufferer benefit cuts. On Commission One of the problems with the commission might be that it, dealing with shortterm budget problems how do you deal with longterm problems like Climate Change investments we need to be making they would not be well reflected and a concern to the difference between talking about doing something and actually doing something. The commission may give many people the opportunity to pretend they are doing something and delay the inevitable we have tough choices to make we just need to make them. And with that, if anybody wants to comment otherwise i will yield back. Very briefly i would say this to the congressman i enjoyed working with very much back in the day. It just strikes me that weve got an opportunity to take this on in a structure that gets both people at the table focusing on the issues, whether its climate, whether its revenue, whether its spending that you have an opportunity to be at the table to have these serious discussions. We know the way the budget process works now you really dont have that opportunity. We are both locked into a partisan struggle that avoids the tough discussions that we need to have and will it work . I have no idea. One thing i know for sure is that whats happening now is not working, and it strikes me that lets have an opportunity to try something else. Lets have an opportunity to try Something Different. Thats what i would say to the gentleman. Mr. Chairman is mr. Scott, this is going back to the joint select committee on the process reform we went into the process reform recognizing that it was a process thinking it was designed to change the process. It wasnt based on developing some kind of outcome what we are going to do at the end of this thing is going to create some outcome. What we wanted to improve the process and the process involved a number of things included in my testimony this morning. The other thing we were able to put in this package was realizing a balanced Budget Amendment is problematic for the congress for a lot of reasons that we installed a debt to gdp target that we thought would be important meaning that in these larger policy discussions, Climate Change, you look at those policies in terms of what is it going to do to the economic condition of the country if you do it or dont do it and does it fit within the debt to gdp range so we could start to encourage. Mr. Yarmuth talked about how you either cut spending or raise taxes. Actually there is the third option out there. Grow your economy and thats what happens when you have a larger policy discussion. Debt to gdp became our metric to use and by the way that was a Sheldon Whitehouse recommendation. So i think if we can get back to the Inconvenient Truths of where we stand and make it work constituents subject Matter Experts it makes it easier to enact the meaning legislation. Just briefly, we worked together closely when i was in the house and also in the senate. Ive always enjoyed working with you so i would like to hear your comments. This is about finding Common Ground. At the art of the deal was talked about earlier and if you have an object if everybody agrees to we should get out of the commission and assign the object of. I mentioned earlier there needs to be some fiscal metric. That may be the hardest thing this commission has to do. Once you agree to that and everybodys onboard, this requires the leaders of congress to put the right people on the commission who want to get to answer because its too easy not to get to be an answer and be benefited politically whether its the way the media treats you because you can get on meet the press if youre going to be out there. You can raise more money online. The way the political system is working in terms of the primaries, weve got to get back to a system where we are serving the people, and that means agreeing on that objective. I think the commission is a vehicle to do that. To what my friend just said it would require the serious discussion to force the congress to deal with these issues rather than talking past each other which in my experience has happened more and more when ive been in public service. So i sense you have an open mind. I hope you do. I did want to make a quick comment about the balancedBudget Amendment. We ought to discuss whether that process would make it easier or harder to balance the budget. My view is the parameters of the balancedBudget Amendment would make it virtually impossible to ever get control of the budget. From that point i will highlight what the chairman said. He focused on debt to gdp. If we can make the focus on debt to gdp we could have substantial ground we could gain in this if we make it. There are some in the committee that dont feel comfortable waiting for ten years to get to a balancedbudget. We put the marker on and its difficult. Ten years thats far away from a lot of people. If we get to the point we are talking debt to gdp and putting those markers in place in establishing the guardrails to make that case i think that is in addition to. Even my newfound powers as chair i wanted to make a quick comment to your first point. Ive numerous times acknowledged president clinton was a key aspect particularly with mr. Panetta a good friend finding a way to get to the balancedbudget, but we cannot also dismiss the fact that often times when theres a democrat what follows is the Republican Congress and that friction also creates good outcomes for us to make movements here so that happens and moves the other way when theres a republican. So to say that republican president s havent cared about this i dont think is fully accurate and im willing to address it on both sides. The point i would quickly like to make when weve gotten to the point in congress is this ones in a generation type of legislating that happens when you have the trifecta, the white house, house and senate in one party. We have this kneejerk reaction to go big and thats not ultimately the best 2030 longterm approach to legislating, so 2017 i think the exceptional job of growing the economy but we didnt take advantage of finding areas to reduce the spending to criticism i have of our own party. And when the trifecta existed we had a 1. 9 trillion bill and we lost that spending whether you blame the inflation on that i dont theres a lot of factors that contributed but i agree that this is a huge contributor so we get into these modes of we have to go big because we have the trifecta and we can bypass the filibuster so weve got to go big. Instead we are trying to do the opposite and make something 30 years out. I care what they are going to be doing if they are sending a dollar of tax and 50 cents of it goes to paying the interest when they get their first job i will have failed my job right now and i dont want to fail this job so id like to add some context that we have this moment in government to actually make some progress here. With that i appreciate the latitude i gave myself apparently to yield now to the gentleman from new york. Thank you mr. Chairman. Budgets are political documents. They pretty much stayed the values, what we believe in, how do we look at the state of the economy in america. Budgets have a heartbeat, they have a pulse. And part of the problem in developing a fair and transparent budget that reflects the condition of america, hunger in america, peoples inability to pay rent in america, the struggles of working families in america is the fact that many of my colleagues and congress are millionaires. So as a result, they are unable to reach out of the bubble and see what the American People are going through on a daily basis and so for example, the Child Tax Credit program was referred to hear. 2,000 for a 17yearold those results to 166. 66 a month for a month. Is that going to break our bank . Is that something we cannot do for somebody that may be is on the hunger line trying to feed their families . The earned income tax credit for poor families that are making only 59,000 a year, a little push so maybe they can buy pampers, milk and maybe be able to not fall back on their rent is that not going to break our backs . So we proposed a commission. Some call it the paralysis of analysis. They read through stuff. You know what they say out there are those that cant go outside of the bubble because they have so much money in their Bank Accounts that they dont have a clear vision. You want to kill a good idea, build a commission. You want to stop innovativeness, give it to a task force. You want deep cuts that cut to the bone like they tried to do this year . Study it, create a study group. This year we had an agreement between the leader of our house and the president. Some of us felt they usurped appropriators like myself but constitutionally have the power of the purse. And that wasnt enough. They broke the agreement and then they wanted to cut it to the bone. They wanted to cut entitlements, revenue that is at the center of this because the trump tax cut benefited the very wealthy, the very rich. Not to the police officer, not the teacher, not the civil servant. The very rich. Thats an entitlement. A corporate entitlement and thats right at the core and its not talked about debt and deficits. So, mr. Yarmuth, thank you for having the grade in your lapel and i want to hear from you what is the role of these trump tax cuts for the rich and the current fiscal condition facing the nation . Talking about tax cuts, thank you for that question. I go back to my brother whos been very successful in business and always voted republican because he wanted to pay less tax. Back in 2008, he called me and said john, you will be happy to know that judy, his wife judy and i are maxing out to barack obama and voting for all democrats this year. I said thats great, bob. What was your epiphany. And he said, hes in the barbecue business, restaurants. He said i finally figured out nobody can afford barbecue. It doesnt matter what my tax rate is. I think in terms of chairman moores comment about debt to gdp ratio, theres an awful lot of economists now that say thats not a meaningful ratio. It doesnt really reflect the sustainability to indicate the sustainability of our debt. So my fear about a commission is yes you could take the position that theres no harm in doing a commission. It does promote conversation, but there is some danger with of acommission that makes recommendations that fail because then they fail, Congress Fails once again so if you said we are going to do a commission that actually analyzes question of debt sustainability and doesnt get into recommendations for cuts or increases and so forth and really provide some education as opposed to suggestions, i might be much more inclined to accept that because i think that would be a valuable thing for the country to have exactly what is the impact of our debt doesnt matter. How much can we live with. But again, if youre going to get into regulations that ultimately are going to prove very difficult politically, then i think theres a real risk in doing that commission and thats why i am concerned about it. The tax credit was a double. This is something i get blamed is saying its all for that risk would it targeted the middle class making sure the deduction as well. That is just fax. I get it. I criticized everybody in the last 20 years. Everybody falls into that by do think thats an important point to make. And moving on to our final speaker from indiana is not recognized as someone who has been an absolute breath of fresh air. Eight month or two behind me in this part of this group that really want to tackle this issue. Thank you, you will be our final question today picnics think it mr. Chairman if i ask unanimous consent to submit a Washington Post article by george f millan to the record. Without objections or to perplex thank you to our witnesses for being here today the bulk of our u. S. Senators are a current member who happens to be my assigned mentor in congress. I could not have asked for a better one. Thank you for a tour for remember as well but i hope a few of my constituents are here thank you for being here today. Our federal debt currently stands at over 33 and half trillion dollars. That equates to debt to gdp ratio of 124 . No one can look at these numbers and believe the physical state of our nation is sound. These spending habits had led to serious economic problems including default inflation at a 40 are high under by administration. This has made it much harder for the hoosiers i represent and all americans to provide for their families and plan for the future. Like many of us, i came to washington to help build a Better Future for my constituents. Passing policies consistently increase Government Spending if not building a Better Future. I fully support establishing Fiscal Commission but we need to carefully design it. So that we do not actually do nothing but we actually change this nation on the course of our fiscal ability. The last thing we need is a report outlining the problem of failing to make any tangible changes. We know with the problem is. The federal government spends too much money without regard to our National Debt. Our fiscal house is not in order. A time of nearly 2 trillion in annual deficit it is continuing to get worse. We need to restore fiscal responsibility immediately. Each of you serve, the Previous Commissions and it taking control of our spending restoring fiscal responsibility. My question is this. In your experience what were the biggest hurdles you face in implementing the recommendations of Previous Commission . What would you recommend that we do differently to ensure recommendations actually become law . I would like to start with my white house mentor. You raise a good question. I said a couple times in my testimony here today the challenge with congress is that we create commissions and create task forces. We look at problem sets and we develop potential solutions. There is no real mechanism to give them the force of law as a result of those we look at them they become shiny objects we acknowledge and brag about our great work and it goes into our resume. That never becomes law of the land. And so there has to be some mechanism in place that gives that the force of law. Congress has too many areas, and we defer, defer, defer we defer past milestones we defer past holidays. We defer past elections. It makes it easy recall kicking the can down the road to move it to the next milestone that the next milestone that will move us past that milestone was going to be the holidays the next will probably be the 24 election. We just have to have some ability to be able to constrain congress for moving past the moment to some future milestone and give force of law. That can be accomplished so muca were talking about becomes an Inconvenient Truth the American Public we are afraid to take tell the American Public the Inconvenient Truth. You tell him of the problem is the want of the solution is. That gets shot down before get e are the issues both sides of the aisle. And give us an opportunity to put this issue behind us. It is a growing threat to our country. Thank you congressman. Center apartments in question but what you recommend we do differently to ensure makes recommendations to become law . What slippers your comments. Its coming up with solutions for the problem is pretty easy to describe. Everybody on both sides of the isles are rails from different perspectives. How do you come up with a metric that makes sense weathers to balance the budget . With the gdp and have the objective but everyone there on that mission trying to find the Common Ground for if you do not have it is not going to work. That may be the most important thing great second i will say the comment almost all of our suggestions are incorporated members of congress are desperate to find some proposals the Committee Looked at it. The idea in the research weve done is very helpful. Finally raising the issues. I was a chance your question directly the other most important aspect other than having this objective, having the commitment on the Common Ground would be having up or down vote. I think youve got to have the ability to have this in the senate is tougher to deal with their rules of the house. You have to have a procedure and eventually force a vote. Force the ability of this congress to come together to get tough decisions. I think with the commission hopefully it build trust with the right people in the right experts on street like you are in indiana and telling people this is what it is about. The second is i do think it provides knowledge, information that everybody has. Targeted a focus on this issue. That would be the thing about it. And then third, if you have a commission is going to report i just applied political cover. The Coverage Today it isnt perfect. Not what i wouldve done exactly. But on the other hand 33 trillion. Your kids and grandkids. This is something we have to suck up and do the right thing for the country for those of the main ingredients for success. Thank you said apartment mr. Chairman thank you for the hearing today on the biggest domestic pig. Excuse me can i interject one thing . This whole discussion about the Debt Commission though about the fiscal condition of our country. Back to the question about what we can do to put some teeth into it and to constrain congress it. It reminds me of a cabdriver i had in cairo, egypt. Right after nine 9 11 were driving down the road its all over the road three wide lane there is for wide traffic. I asked the cab driver, hey man, do you not seen the lines in the road . He looked at me and said those are merely a suggestion. Left would you describe the process the u. S. Congress uses to manage its budgets and precisely in the condition mary and i yield back. I could not agree more. A second but with better, sooner than all that thats a very clear statement and putting it into perspective. Thank you all. Thank you, senator portman and chairman womack. All dedicated Public Servants willing to abate a mark on this place and continuing to do so. May submit questions to be answered later in writing as questions in your answers were made part of the formal hearing record anyone wishing to submit questions for the record may do so within 72 that the committee stance adjourned. [background noises] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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