Your a hospitality. With the first goal deal i represent china so that is a natural connection one of the things we have learned is there are multiple cultural issues coming up in the chinese American Economy i cannot imagine how to address these issues. Thank you very much. And to be on the National Committee board end of your contributions i am a senior director for Education Programs at the National Committee in rehab period of all decided to take time this evening to join us for what i am sure will be an interesting and thought provoking discussion. Wheel of us discussion among the three of us then open it up to questions and comments from the audience. If people are in the overflow room and you have questions come over and we will accommodate your question as well. Congratulations on your book the official publication date is tomorrow. So we are absolutely thrilled you are here to talk with us. Tell us how the book came to be. Sure. Look at china with that creativity i wanted to do deconstructs the narrative i also happen to move to use shanghai with my family. To the number one in the world and people were very upset. Just down the street in all of shanghai we had a little boy. So we enrolled him and through this narrative i happen to be a journalist. So i knew i had an opportunity. What is the genesis of your book and what does the avocado pit have to do with it . [laughter] to be interested in education we heard a story a couple years ago from the academy this prestigious so a girl applied she had great scorers with a grade essay, they admitted her but we knew something was a little bit off but then it became clear that was not the girl who had done the sky interview. It was her sister. I was told this story and it was corroborated but theyre all talking about it that the differences are so strange. But when i heard that story had thought it is not so strange actually. Substituting one person for another with tea market is very common. Teamwork is commons a there are many things that were baffling to the educators here in spending time in china and that is also true. And space to bring education to china. But time ted was not about this school but i said i understand both sides so there was a book where i can explain it. So i realized that piece of information they were missing those from the east and the western very different. It is like an avocado with a pit in the center for ago we feel this is our identity of the whole purpose is to understand that nature and strengthen the weaknesses that were very much committed that they can move freely and this is the model that we have. Research has established that asia, africa, south america, a lot of places in western europe and even in the United States itself has distance and has dominated so is that self that is falafel of agency it is fully capable to travel abroad doing all these things that we think of it think we imagine that some how they cannot take initiative but that is wrong. There is plenty a of the initiative and entrepreneurship. So wheres that coming from . They dont care about branding or fit is a law firm but in china there is none. [laughter] because the ada is honorable with integrity. With that emanation of these people with the avocado pit. So lets use that name. It is a completely different view. Is more geared to what will work. As i think about chinese education and American Education i find myself troubled by the sweeping generalizations there isnt one Education System here or there child of a Migrant Worker not getting the same education as the ones in this school. Obviously really have an hour and half to make some generalizations but to keep in mind there are a lot of differences. You have gotten a lot of attention for this book which is great. I wonder if some of that commentary has gotten long . That chinese education is all good or American Education is all bad, using yourself as an example obviously you did pretty well you went to stanford which is not known for taking structures. Slouched. So what is it about the chinese Education System . First, let me go back with my strength in school, as a mother concerned about individual choice i want him to eat eggs but did want to force him. The teacher immediately shoved a eggs in his mouth and held his mouth shut until he swallowed so i said in america explain the benefits. We do not use force. She said does that work . I said sometimes yes and sometimes no. [laughter] bin she said dont ever challenge my authority in front of the child again so that i realized it was more than a bargain for. So where is that motivation . So with that Group Orientation she thought i was making waves taking away from the Group Progress and had an idea what her authority was to look like. Talk about internal drivers of behavior i want to show a slide. So with is that sorting mechanism there is a lot of anxiety around education with every level of the latter there is the Entrance Exam at highschool there is a million kids. At college you lose another 8 million so talking about that top tier everyone is fighters to is only a couple hundred thousand children. It is high stakes and drives behavior so understand the extra of force. If you say how is indeed doing is in shanghai . At of 47 students she is 27. Everything is about this gore and the ranking so that is important to understand. That was good and bad. One of the good things i discovered the chinese have a cultural term for eating dinner that translates to hard work there is a connection from hard work and achievement in the United States and i got a lot of flak for this. Were okay to believe he will train harder but translated into the classroom doesnt work. We all believe in that connection in higher at hard work. So i believe that is one cultural defense i have learned in my research that. Would you say there are strengths to the American Education . Absolutely. There is a lot of border to the classroom they are packed very tightly the teacher has decided three rose knees touching in front is order but with individual expression there is laughter enjoy summer paying attention. Some are not. They are preteenagers and i said illustrate your dream. Out of 50 kids 48 had houses but to our into world peace. [laughter] because this is happening these two kids just decided i would do exactly the same down to the same color. That orientation is captured very well. We are so good at talking to our kids not only asking them their interests but what they think and on a daily basis. And unfortunately most chinese children come home with a parent knows best environment. But is china better or america better . It is a poor country. You may not like the latter but on the other hand that i think what can we do to improve our own system . Because there is a middle ground. I am a writer. The net yet whats i do know is i have a child who is interested in art i want them to learn to do perspective. So you mean the child the canton into perspective . Of most children cannot most of them were on display by imitating someone else. I think to go past that is a great thing bin maya experience shouldnt they also learn to do perspective . If you tell them that is wrong. It is a terrible word. We think that avocado pit will shrivel up. But i have to say that people who have a lot to say are not undaunted from the storytelling. Though whole idea that you must learn to do this. This will not make you a great writer but then use the down and then they could do that. And then to do those things. This narrative of chinese not being creative. They did not feel to do Something Different from each other. And that was the loudest person may thought was the leader. There was different creativity so if you have that topdown teacher who says i dont want to hear your opinion you see this in young kids. Only if certain times you can get water. This is their reality. If you are branded a coffer you can get it anytime that you want. And then they get the yellow card whenever they want. With those antiquated laws that you have to take the s. A. T. So they have laws and require you to go back. So i feel that authoritarianism that is wrong that drives behavior in china. But there are so many barriers. But if you talk get that stanford level. What do you suppose to do . And that is a lot of pressure. Into do something great it wasnt your fault. And honestly day slide themselves. Asking the question to be scripted over the net dave may be better off. At like to go back to the baggage claim but Many Americans would say the examples of corruption. That the american pool but it was getting girl a bed girl be was taking the test and not showing up. With that description and then made by a hair stand on end. For what theyve been the of our society and Chinese Society and anyone if you could go first. With the textbook system of any kind of corruption. We had that huge scandal with the of mantegna teachers. But bill whole district was cheating. And to have a highstakes and that said if you have old nation and to have a huge problem. There is a way that you to be focused on the problem. And to feel that they need to be segregated. Because just as many stories of the unbelievable honesty. I dropped my wallet around 10,000 people. It is shiny very United States looking in at 3,000 in its anybody could have picked that up. So i was panicked when i realized i had dropped it. A guy was standing there looking for me and i got a back then there were a thousand people around. It goes both ways. And then to clean my apartment at shanghai concede that i wanted to pay her much more. And they would not take more than she was supposed to so it is not like a nation of cheaters but that said that Education System especially i think so now there is money now in china in beijing and shanghai. This so you want someone so with the consumer culture and agreed so that is a kinder way to look at me with those relationships in your life and it bought highest person is that the size of the gift. So i feel if you show our appreciation you give a gift but in china you dont want to except something because you do not want to owe them something in return. I learned that the hard way but a teacher who takes a deft use as i know what my teacher and i kidded the front and he is in a bad back. This is a problem in shanghai and in our rural areas for girl to pay your teacher for time outside of the class. So with the stakes and the gifted and culture. That was our to cells. This is what we recognize to go around the individual. So what you can see there is still a boundary butted is permeable between the in group and to be out to group. If you give a gift your removing someone from this to this summit that is what is happening and it is that reciprocity. And then to be that much closer. And in america and it is corruption and that is instrumental but it is the way to establish the relationship. So to say i feel more comfortable to pull this together. And then we have to go down together. That isnt necessarily what is important a painter decided to paint my son that is worth quite a bit of money. But then three years later it was the antigravity machine in going nowhere for 10 years. So you just have to question it is a silly question modesto way to show the appreciation that yes at some point to take care of people in your group. You want to show the rest of your slides . No. Thats okay. [laughter] with those questions and comments. I have a lot of students from china one of the interesting issues from me half of the incoming freshmen are of asian background. With harvard and princeton but on the basis that if they get the s. A. T. Score of 740 that is a failed because they cannot be competitive with the other ethnic groups. I would be interested in your opinion of both the dynamics. I think that the contention that kind of asianamericans are not seen, that theres no kind of, that there wasnt a quota, you know, there isnt a ceiling is clearly wrong. E clearly, there is a ceiling. Because you look at the percentage, and its so even. Theres a ceiling. The question of whether that means that the asianamericans dont have to then compete against each other, clearly the asianamericans have to compete against each other. The contention that, therefore, you know, that this is somehow related to affirmative action and that, you know, this is bad, you know what i mean . And if we strike this down, we should also strike down affirmative action i think iss also highly erroneous. I mean, to set a floor for certain groups in america, i mean, a school like harvard is in the business of producing leaders for the whole nation and the whole world. There has to be diversity. For anybody to argue that diversity is not important and its a matter of how well you to in academics is just completely wrong. Whether there isnt a kind of problem with the asianamericans or whether you know, i dont know what the answer is. I mean, i dont think that it is right really for one group to be, you know, a group thats only 5 or 6 of the population to be 30 of the student body. It just seems very problematic. At the same time, i also feel that the asianamericans should be treated like the jews who are so overrepresented. In other words well, no, they are overrepresented. And the do fact that if asianamericans are treatedfa differently than the jews, isnt that just racism, right . On what basis, what argument could you possibly make, you know . Its okay for certain groups to be overrepresented but not others. Its a very complicated question. Im just glad that i am not on the committee at harvard. [laughter] [inaudible] yeah. [laughter] hi. Im maria, i work for the council on foreign relations. I was wondering if either of you had noticed a difference in the degree of interest and awareness to what the other country is doing education wise in china and the United States. So the chinese, if you look at where theyre insecure, its education, you know . If you look at the president of china, shi gin pipping, he doesnt seem insecure about anything, but in education theyre very insecure. Theyre sending teachers over, you know, to use the u. K. , to the netherlands, to the u. S. , australia to learn. And theyre not, you know, not surprisingly theyre not really looking at how were teaching math, theyre looking at how we get students interested in learning, how they love what theyre doing in the classroom, and theyre bringing some of that back. What i do worry about is its not really coming the other way. Theres a lot of resistance to, you know, American Education maybe learning from other cultures n. The policy circles theyre talking about, but when you try to filter some of that down, it feels really uncomfortable to have that discussion. Its translatedded into a different language here. A lot of the discussion about grit, essentially when theyre talking about a what our students need to do, what they need to do to be grittier, just persevere regardless of whether they think they can, are getting good feedback [inaudible] right . So, but you cannot say that that idea comes from asia, you know . [laughter] even though sure, thats true. It clearly does. But, you know, theres a way in which, you know, if you asked me why i wrote my book, of course, im very interested in u. S. china things, but im also interested in bringing to our own attention our own individualism is a kind of religion, you know what i mean . I mean, it is you cannot say anything that is antiindividualism without youra head coming off. And i just wonder how healthy that is, you know . I mean, i just think that, like i say, we ourselves were not always this individualistic. And the question is, does itth work for us, and are we when it comes to education so busy protecting the students selfesteem that we cant get them to sit there a little longer . Right. They gave a test where theres no answer to the, you know, to the questions to these kids in japan. These kids sat and stuck with those problems, you know, indeft. They had to finally say, okay, you can quit now, actually, theres no answer, you know . [laughter] the American Kids though, i mean, that has its own problems probably, but they definitely have the perseverance thing down. U. S. Kids, on the other hand, 30 seconds and they gave up. I dont know the answer. And the answer is, you know, in any field i dont think there is any field where people have not achieved through tremendous levels of perseverance. So, you know, so the degree to which our individualism has ledd to this kind of hyperprotection of our avocado pits has led to an inability to persevere. Its quite a problem. And thats basically what i said in my wall street journal saturday essay a couple of weekends ago where you have to think about where this emphasis maybe on the individual is going a little bit too far where teachers are spending a lot of time attending to individuals needs. Im talking about the ones that arent necessary, that arent, you know, lifepreserving, you know . The ones that dont detract, that dont have to do with learning. We should have a thought about this, you know . What are we doing in the classroom . S and i think thats one of the lessons. And just serve our students. Thats right. You know, if they cant master basic math. Thats right. Do you know what i mean . Who is served by that . We [inaudible conversations] particularly your selfesteem, but you have not served that student. And its so hard to get that connection if you look at the research studies, Primary School math schools actually correlate to learning a couple of decades later. That sounds icky, but its true, you know . If you look at the research, thats what it shows. [inaudible] hello. Hel [inaudible] is how i got the invite for today. So im actually originally from greece, so i was educated in greece, then educated in the u. S. My girlfriend is from hong kong so, you know, some of the stuff you guys are talking about actually kind of, especially the chinese part of the world, kind of resonates more with my kind of greek background. But then, you know, because i was educated here, you know, i also [inaudible] so what ive observed throughout my, you know, my own kind of journey was hike, you know, those differences. And what you said about corruption and this kind of inner circle concept really resonated. So one thing i would like to ask you is to what extent do you think that, you know, certain things that people do to do good by their, you know, inner circle, you know,that concept in asia or in china in this particular case, you actually are people still have here in america, but they just call differently . And ill give you an example, all right . So, you know, in china you would have, you know, a couple the gifts you mentioned, helping out someone in your inner circle, and you call that potentially corruption, right . You come here, you go to networking event, you know, you go to the same school, you help out someone from your school, you call that networking. So, you know, it would just be interesting to, you know, kind of hear your thoughts on that. First, because were taping i realize i should say this disclaimer. I talked about accepting a painting, and actually this man was a distant relative. So it was family, it wasnt like i didnt know what was happening, and nothing ever came of the gift. It just sits in our room and never seen him again, okay . Just to be clear, for thebe record. [laughter] do you want to take the first stab at that one . [laughter] i think youre absolutely right. I mean, in other words, i think that its kind of human nature, if you will, you know, to make kind of these circles, and it doesnt always have to be corrupt, do you know what i mean . A it really doesnt. I will say that if there was something that i really fault about the asian system, i think it is the very strong boundary between the in group and the out group. So, you know, i mean, the problem with that strong boundary is that, you know, you ask why were people so kind in the water town and so honest, and then why are they, you know, why are they, you know, they just cant stick it enough to the americans, you know . Why is that . And the answer is somebody beyond the bound, you know, the outgroup they dont even regard as even human. So theres a completely different, you know, set of rules for inside and outside. Thats true. And i think that for all this system does a lot of wonderful things. You look at care for the elderly, you know, there are many things, just the sheer warmth of human relations. There are many things about the system that are great. But then when you think about, you know, the way that the japanese soldiers, you know, treated the, you know, even thes chinese and other people who were not japanese during world war ii, you just realize like, whoa, you know . That strong boundary is quite a problem. But its changing very rapidly. St if you look at philanthropy just in the eight years ive been in shanghai, theres so much givin that i thought would never happen in 2010. Ng ive been at Charity Balls where theyve ruled 8 million fors. Poor rural kids, education. The person giving doesnt really get anything out of it really except that they at fancy tables. Theres a face element. So if you can tap that part of the culture, youre going to get people to give. But its changing because people are realizing that you have to give back. And thats why shanghai, i was talking about this earlier, i feel like, you know, evan [inaudible] says this where especially a place like new york, shanghai, boston, l. A. , we all want the same things. Were all competing in a more global marketplace, and our wants and needs really arent that different when youre talking about this particular urban educated class. So its just something to remember. [laughter] hi, im [inaudible] ive been thinking a lot about the topic ever since i received the invite for this program because i was just on my way to shanghai for a long work trip. My company is taiwanese, but we work primarily out of china now. And we do have an office here. I also feel personally invested in kind of the story youre telling. I spent some time in taiwan at an elementary school, i sort of went through, you know, that schooling system, compared it to my experience in the u. S. One thing that i noticed when i was in china and taiwan this summer, i was reading articles about what i would call the mainland taiwan creativity gap. Obviously, the two schooling systems are a little bit different. One thing ive noticed in taiwan especially over the past decade is there seems to be a kind of creative renaissance going on. Theres a lot of kind or of more freewheeling Creative Design happening in taiwan to the point where there are currently incentives being offered by a lot of chinese cities, mainland chinese cities to entice taiwanese youth to go to the mainland [inaudible] so ive been thinking about this a lot [inaudible] but i was wondering if you are aware of [inaudible] sure. I mean, china believes that taiwan is part of their country. [laughter] theres a lot of political, theres a lot of political, you know, charged around this particular issue. I think that, you know, the communist party really puts its heavy hand into the classroom, and i have a chapter about what kids are told in the classroom and then what they learn outside is very different. You know, you cant tell a classroom of chinese kids that the japanese are devils because of a war a number of decades ago, meanwhile more chinese are going to japan and developing a taste for saw shimmy. What theyre learning in the classroom conflicts with the outside world. I think chinas okay as long as you dont touch this sort of core party power. Anything is fine, and even encouraging kids to be creative, all of thats fine except in politics, ethics and ideology. And religion, you know . There are three or four areas where you just dont encourage Critical Thinking. A professor of education actually told this to me in china. So theyre really opening their borders except for anything that challenges that particular core. You know, i think that taiwan is a great example, i think, of what you have when you have east and west when they come together. I think that one of the reasons youre seeing this tremendous creativity there is that, you know, exactly the wall that we are trying to take down is down in taiwan. And the results speak for themselves. Hi, my name is kristen green, im from [inaudible] and im a former [inaudible] but im not going to talk about admission. [laughter] i want to talk about macrolevel and actually focus on what you talk about. I had a professor that once told me you talk about all this [inaudible] china, you know, is rising up, and the chinese are saying were just getting back to where we were. And so my question for you is we talk about net export [inaudible] the conversations really turning to net import. And were seeing increase [inaudible] china for education, mostly from [inaudible] and im kind of curious if you yourself have seen this trend, and if so, why . People going to china for their undergraduate degrees. Thats right. From, did you say from the u. S. . Worldwide. Oh, worldwide. Worldwide. [inaudible] vietnam, etc. Well, chinas spending a lot of money on its university sector, you know . They take great pride, theyve decided that theyre going to build something the sort of rifle the ivy league, and theres rival the ivy league, and theres a lot of money attached to that. They have grants that you just wouldnt imagine theyd never get in the netherlands or even just here, just money being thrown at them. And with that comes students interest, right . Thats something that china is hoping to develop. You know, i think its also just a matter of where theyre placing their bets, you know . And i think that enough people have come to the United States to realize that, actually, this very thing that were talking about, you know, the divide between the [inaudible] is such a difficult divide to navigate that a lot of them realize that, actually, they might be better off not tryingcu to come to the United States and maybe better off learning to deal with china where, yes, things are very difficult and, yes, they have longstanding, you know, kind of ethnic animosities of various kinds, but fundamentally youre running on a system that is enough like what they know that they can succeed there. Hi. My names cornelius, im an independent scholar. Im the author of the drive to learn which discusses a whole bunch of these issues. It was published in june. As i was doing my research and, by the way, its about the role of parents in good education. One of the things i came across as i was doing research for the book is a study that is actually still ongoing out of stanford university. Its out of stanford, but its looking at chinese universities. And the study basically, it was reported in the New York Times at one point, the study wants to find out why students at chinese universities dont seem to learn very much. So in order to establish baseline for that study, they gave students from china, russia and the United States a test of Critical Thinking. The test of Critical Thinking was an american test that was actually developed by Educational Testing Service which i wasnt allowed to say in the book. I just said it came from a well known american source. These were College Freshmen in technical studies, and what we would call freshmen. Im not sure thats what they call them there. And heres the outcome. The students who had the highest of the three in Critical Thinking were the chinese, second the russians, lowest, the americans. Isnt this interesting considering how much emphasis we put on Critical Thinking and, i guess, how much emphasis it doesnt get in china . Or maybe it does. Thats interesting. You know, i have to say, you know, just anecdotally, you know, i mean, i know a lot of people who, you know, theyve come, theyre from the very top of the chinese system because i live in cambridge, massachusetts, and, you know, so they are postdocs at mit, for example. People who have done very, very, very well, you know . And the answer is they tend to flounder. I mean, i have to say i think some of them look, there are some very, very good students, and i happen to know harvard also, very interested in those students and they want those students at harvard. But it is true that some of the Chinese Students do tend to flounder. I will say also i taught at nyushanghai, so i had a lot of their, you know, the students who scored very hard on the [inaudible] and honestly, their Critical Thinking was not as good as the Critical Thinking of the u. S. Students. I mean, thats just anecdotal, but its, it was very it was noticeable. I mean, there are studies that have found the opposite too. Yeah. What are the parameters, how large is the sample size, what age is the children. You have to look a little bit deeper. That said, but youre right that its complicated, you know what i mean . Its like who is better at what is complicated. It another huge piece of it, of course, be is by the time these kids get to the their whole idea of college is you just lay back and do nothing. I mean, you get to that [inaudible] you work really, really hard, now youre made. I mean, literally. [laughter] they do nothing. Whereas the u. S. Its the opposite, you know . You got through that gate, now it starts, you know . I mean, so i think life at peking university and life at harvard or stanford, they could not be more diametrically opposed. And the chinese know this, thats why theyre coming over here from the university system, absolutely. Its the best in the world. E. It used to be, and i think it still is, that it was said among International Educators that the best education in the world wasy any country except for the United States for elementary and secondary, then come here for university. That might be right. That might be right. John, did you have a question . Hi, im john lowe, im from the National Committee. Youve been talking about largely these two separate groups of American Students and Chinese Students, but and this is perhaps particularly for gish whos working at a program thats roughly divided. And im thinking about u. S. Universities where theres now an increasing number of chinese in the classroom. So how does the professor accommodate both of these, you know, the [inaudible] [laughter] students to accommodate both these learning styles, and is a program like nyushanghai or perhaps a Different Program thats like nyushanghai but is not destinedded to succeed or fail . Ooh. Of. [laughter] first of all, id like to say that nyushanghai is a success simply for the very fact that they have managed to establish themselves in shanghai and the fact that they havent been closed down. [laughter]em i mean, no, really. Because they really are practicing full freedom of speech, you know, on the campus and within the university. The fact that they have been able to manage that politically, to me, is just mindboggling. And i think we can only take our hats off to them. I think there is a lot of pressure, and i think, you know, the Chinese Government is looking very hard to see how those kids do, you know . They are looking for those kids to do something really kind of amazing. And, you know, kind of ten years from now if those kids have not done that, i do fear for the future of the school. Luckily for me, you know, i was teaching creative writing, so kind of, you know, its easy to adjust, you know . Its easy to adjust expectations. In a general kind of way, i do think that a certain sensetivity on the part of the teacher sensitivity on the part of the teacher especially when it comes to speaking in class is really important. So, i mean, in other words, you cannot i guess the most important thing is you cannot look at students who do not like to speak in class and just cast them as theyre quiet, theyre kind of uninvolved, do you know what i mean . Any of those things. I mean, not speaking, not speaking in class is very Much Associated with this in fact, if we look at this diagram and you can sort of see how a lot of early communication goes there person to person, its not verbal. And their ideal, the ideal is still a kind of nonverbal, intuitive understanding, you know . It that is kind of their base language, if you will. It remains the, it remains the ideal, you know, like everywhere, everywhere in chinese literature, unspoken communication, do you know what i mean . In fact, if you have to use words to talk to somebody else, that means that you are the other side, right . That means if theres a distance there, a distance that, frankly, if youre from a flexy culture, you do not want there. Its formal. They do not like that formality. And there are studies that show that the whole way of thinking is more global and patternoriented. And because of that it is harder for them, you know, if you are more analytical and you are actually thinking in a way that there are like little packets, youre dividing things up, its easier to get that into words, and so its easier to think and talk at the same time than it is if you talk in this more patternoriented way. There is no suggestion that one is more effective than the next. Actually, the study that they did to show this difference was done at stanford. So, you know, so the asianamericans they were look at are obviously extremely, you know, able to function, to problemsolve is. Theres no difference in their actual ability to get to an answer. But the students are thinking in a different way. And one way is very conducive to sort of being described, you know, its easy for people to talk and describe their thinking, and its very hard for the other people to describe their thinking. Im having trouble. I myself am having trouble. Although if you ask them to recite the abcs, for example, the people with the flexy selfci can do that easy, whereas the people with the pit self cant do that. But the answer is if youre that teacher, you cannot penalize, i think, people with a flexy self simply because were [inaudible] because they come from another culture, you know . I mean, i think you can encourage them like i always encouraged my students to speak up, you know . I tried to make it as easy for them as possible, and i tried to signal to them that i understood how hard it was. I mean, and i believe me, there are people even very successful asianamericans in america will describe how hard this journey was. People like, you know, professor [inaudible] who you see all the time in the new yorker now, a professor at the law school in harvard. She also started out one of those people who could not speak in class. I started out as one of those people who could not speak in class. The journey from that person to the perp who can do this the person who can do this, the its long and difficult journey because youre talking about acquiring a different self, you know . I think for the teacher i would always say to my students you have to learn the same way you learned english. The answer is its a passport. Just think how many doors will open to you. If you cant learn, its just tough. Its just a matter of whether its right or wrong, it is a fact of life. And if you want to work at any kind of international anything, you need to speak up in those meetings. You have to learn this thing. But i think for teachers to judge the students too early, you know, to not really understand how hard it is for them, well, you know what i mean . This is where the Teacher Needs education, in my view. I wonder how much of what you just said is gendered as well concern. Yes. Your two examples were female. Yes. Well, but its also true that, you know, the head of one of the big at facebook whos a guy describes the same process. Asian. Yes. Yes. And now, you know, hes a big mucketymuck, but the answer is many people. And its interesting because were talking about not only asians, but also asianamericans. Many asianamericans, my moms second generation, born in america, first language is english. In fact, i barely speak chinese when you really come down to it. No, really, the answer is right . Definitely second generation, i would argue in many case into the third generation. So the answer is this self is quite persistent. But i think for educators to understand that is critical. Because im in creative writing, i know that many creative writing teachers like the flexy self does not like to talk about itself, you know . So the pit self is told from day one, tell me all about yourself, you know . And thats kind of, you know, your mother isnt listening from day one, and youre taught thats very important. Asians, its like the opposite, you know . They do not like to talk about themselves. So what does the creative writing teacher do day one . Well, the teacher who gets them there and as a way of putting all students at ease says will you write something about yourself day one is going to find that all the asians, asianamericans are going to leave the class. [laughter] in other words, they have to be aware that, you know, there are kids that are coming from very different cultural background, and if you say, please, write an essay about yourself, that could backfire bigtime. Unfortunately, weve come to the end of our time. Finish i want to encourage you to purchase these books. They are really, really, truly worth reading. I have read them both. To the surprise of our speakerrings. [laughter] speakers. Please join me in thank them very much for coming. [applause] [inaudible conversations] heres a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. In october well be live for two full days of authors talks at the southern festival of books in nashville. Later in october there are two book festivals happening on the same weekend. In the northeast its the ninth annual boston book festival, and in the south, the louisiana book festival will take place in baton rouge. And in early november, the wisconsin book festival in madison. And that same weekend look for us live at the texas book festival in austin. President bushs former special assistant looks at the impact of the Energy Revolution on foreign policy. Then at 8 00, david lidd. Former speech writer for president obama, calls hi time in the white house. On booktv z after words at 9 00 a. M. , art leavine reports on the many Health Industry and at 10 00, plate cat strategist dick morris weighs in on the russia investigation and the trump campaign. At 11 30 p. M. Eastern ucla recovery on incarceration in los angeles. That all happens tonight on booktv. Con [inaudible conversations]ations good evening, and welcome to the main event the last program of the evening here in the bathroom. I am an editor correspondent pawedcaster at npr and a fulltime faculty member at American University school of public affairs