Comes to trump, but the first sentence this is not a book about donald trump, how the big right lost its mind is the title, and immediately you are taking a stand in the title, but i would like to make sure everyone knows that his watching knows your background. Youve written a number of other books. The conservatives that have have support to trump and do, will find a great deal in calm and that they have on the issue of the academy, freedom of expression, etc. And if they see you. Some came back why are you doing that. He is a never trumper. But i would like to do first, since everyone is watching the outcome is to know what the conservatism is. Explain to everyone that is listening, politically and otherwise, what conservatism means to you. Guest it seems to be redefined on a regular basis. But for me it was all about the limited government, fiscal responsibility, respect for the constitution. Those sort of things that are in inclusive aspirational vision that are very well captured by Ronald Reagan when we talk about the shining city on a hill. I think i come from the brand of conservatism that is reform oriented and wants to deal with problems and things as they exist in the real world but i think it was defeated in the primary of 2016. Host and that is a clear part of your book. But with how the big right lost its mind, i think conservatism is a longer word and maybe that is a difference. Is it a decision kind of plant that has happened and has been achieved of people abandoning something or is it possible we are in the midst of a transition if you will when it comes to whether people think that its failed, they dont like what has happened up to this point were they feel the gop hasnt delivered. Is it possible people have not lost their mind but are in a period of transition at this stage . Guest there is a break what happened in 2015 and 2016 was a Dramatic Movement that was a rejection too much of the movement and a rejection of the Ronald Reagan legacy. I think many of the things that happened during the campaign, the title of the book had two meanings hohave twomeanings hows mind, which was the rejection of a vot butt of the intellectual tradition of mainstream conservatism by donald trump and the supporters in the Republican Party but also just be explosion of extreme positions and the willingness to tolerate the behavior. A lot of that have been so theres kind of a double meaning. In terms of is it done and over i think we will have this debate for a generation. Host a lot of people watching was it a relationship that developed i first supported scott walker, wasnt supportive of the president at first. Ive not been disappointed however we will be disappointed at some point. A lot of people i think would argue that this is about the establishment leadership not delivering about we do love Ronald Reagan and all of what you stated in the beginning we also believe in and we watched the government gets bigger. Obamacare and the current betrayal that weve experienced, spending in general, being made bigger. Perhaps its because we are children of Ronald Reagan and we havent seen that contain you. Some would argue that what happened last year is a reassertion of the insistence that we go back to the conservative idea. If maybe people that felt betrayed by the establishment that donald trump was not the guy. He was contributing money to Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer and there was a question did he support singlepayer health care. Hes a supporter of abortion rights with donald trump is not and never has been an actual conservative in part because he is a man lacking in principle. Even many of the supporters understand maybe he is the hese vehicle to break the status quo but he doesnt represent an idea or the philosophy of government and again we have to play this out. We dont know what is his relationship with nancy and chuck going to be after the midterm. For people saying we are upset with the establishment because they havent given conservative values, there were i think 17 or 16 candidates that were on that stage, and almost every one of them have the stronger conservative credentials but actually understood the issues and policy and cab principles and yes the republicans rejected all of those others for donald trump that wasnt about conservatives. Host it could be about and this is where part of your book is also about giving advice to conservatives and we can get to that but as we establish our positions here where People Like Us go as w though as we move fod that the rejection of individuals seen in the establishment we saw the trend to this of the wholesale rejection and the others were running through at one point i also supported and really did represent the standard that this was a wholesale rejection of what was seen as a failure of the standard and a message to be sent, and i think this is where the divide is. Unless it is the rejection of conservatism and those that havent moved it properly or say they are conservatives but where wed seen the next in line, john mccain, mitt romney and we see the world unfold and the ability also to deal with the world and its new face with electronics, social media, the internet is that part of the issue not just media about how you interact on all of these formats which trump did very well as a unit talking to people directly into being ag able to communicate with them which i dont think any of the other people standing on that stage were able to do with the exception but even she wasnt able to translate it to the ground. Is it about being communicators in a new age where president reagan didnt even have to deal with talk radio or anything on social media. Guest we didnt have the kind of conservative media e. Co. Chamber that you and i were both part of. And i wonder whether his success may have had to do with that and its one of those interesting puzzles of what role they played. But donald trump presented something. He represented the bid middle fingers of the voters to the establishment but if you wanted to deal with these issues if would have gone from a marco rubio or ted cruz were they different and in terms of communication, yes he is a master of twitter but he was rude and a wire and fraud. But this was relatively well known. And conservatives who bought that long ago used to argue that character matter and the president was a role model somehow found a way to rationalize behavior of somebody that insults when men an my nams the disabled and the pows and paid a multimillion dollar fine defrauding students who just wanted to get an education who even now in the oval office uses the power to insult and call for people to be fired for engaging in free speech and yet we are supposed to think somehow this is a return to the conservative values. Host thats interesting though because i dont know if it was that argument. No one is saying that this is a returned to the conservative values but it was an effort to put out the fire that was happening economically and was and still is happening around the world. And as ive mentioned, there was a panel of two africanamerican women and a white woman about our age asking them about this common sense after charleston and if it bothered them and all of them said no. They were not voting for a husband or boyfriend. That it was about getting things in order and that is what is designated about you, the role of the president , the nature of this person as an individual and what was required at the moment. And clearly, people determined that it wasnt going to be Chris Christie or marco rubio or george bush. It is a statement at least worthy of taking seriously. And in your book the implication is the voters were the trend in the Republican Party is xenophobia and racism and misogyny and for the average voter who wants their jobs back and wants health care dealt with and money back in their pocket and wants to see the future come is that fair to all of those individuals who acknowledge that on occasion we are going to be offended but theres something larger at stake. Is it fair in that kind of viewpoint to say that what he represents is xenophobia and misogyny and racism that the implication is. His attitude towards women, we had him on camera. There was a time if somebody bragged on camera about assaulting women that would be disqualifying and certainly conservatives would have thought so. Does that mean that the voters are racist or sexist, no it does not and i think that is where a lot of people on the left have made a terrible mistake. I think they spent 30 years crying wolf. Every conservative is a racist so when the real thing came along in the form of the old right, which was empowered and encouraged by the shrub campaign and which he continues to give to come out when it came along to the left was out of ammunition and folks on the right have become numb to it but here is the moral test. Is it all a part of the conservative movement william f. Buckley junior back in the 60s drew a line that said society needed to be excommunicated from the conservative movement because they were too extreme. And he successfully did that. Not because he was anticommunist, but because if you made a place for the conspiracy theories and that the white eisenhower was you would discredit. But we dont have the gatekeepers like that or have the ability to say we have to draw the line. So, what happened was we had a conservative movement that turned a blind eye and im not saying all of them because that isnt true but lets be honest we turn a blind eye to the conspiracy theorists, the paranoia, people who trafficked. Pretty much all of us. I tried to push back on some of the stuff. Donald trump began his president ial rise by pushing the rock obama birth or Conspiracy Theory an and pushed back againt him . The majority of the Republican Voters at one time believed that and we figured these were the fringes and the extreme we could roll our eyes and the center would hold, but it didnt. And i think this was a failure on the part of conservatives. I dont think that the conservatives are racist misogynist xenophobic but i do think if we are honest in his mind that we have now to ask whether or not we ignored it or we were too tolerant of it because we figured they are on our side and we are not going to call them out on it. Saddam afteso, after charlottest was a signal. That was one of those moments. And you bring it up. We look to the president to provide moments of healing and unity and that is one of those moments of donald trump failed to signal but if you follow what he did in the campaign it shouldnt have come as a surprise. Host in the aftermath weve had larger discussions and we know this being in the media and also in how the media can distort or mislead or directly why certainly about republicans and conservatives. That is generally what they do. As part of the decision perhaps that the media decides what is going to be elevated into they are going to decide the narrative that the elevation or the depiction of the reach of the outright is a mistake perhaps to think of the conservative movement versus watch cnn or msnbc or the New York Times or any other element that has an agenda is deciding to elevate and promote. And i tell my audience base all this time not to let the media tmediadetermines your reality bo look to the broad base of information. And for those of us in the media that is all in a way. Is it possible that we are mistaking or you are mistaking the power and influence of that group that we recognize that some issues . This is also the difference to talk about what is a conservative and the difference with the old right. Breitbart. Com, some people there versus in the clan suit so this is where we begin to contemplate things and i dont know if a lot of people listening would we would even have disagreements but if we have a definite disagreement of what it is versus White Supremacists or is this the conflation and what we are going to do. We dont even have agreement on that. That. A lot of people look at it for information because they support donald trump, they are regular people and they will have a variety of opinions. Some are repulsive and some are not. We may find that in any network of people but it depends on what we are going to promote. Steve van and who went on to become the president of the United States brags that he had turned it into a platform and lets be clear, it is a euphemism for the White Nationalism and antisemite. Host and you could be correct there are people that disagree and this is where the debate is and the discussion is. And i think that most people listening are going to have a different opinion or even themselves be conflicted. We know what the clan is and i think most people would say that isnt breitbart and that isnt fair but also means it might not be everything they believe for this is not hard to denounce these extremists. This is part of i think whats happened to the conservatives with donald trump something that would have been easy and automatic would have become difficult. The people that are white nationalists are not part of the movement. It was 20 to 30 years. I struggled against this stereotype of the left. We are not like this. We do not make excuses, then along comes the right and its like maybe there were many good people there. Then he looks at the nfl players and theres a point at which we say the conservative Movement Needs to pass a test. You were asking about the media and i dont think that there is a such thing anymore. The government exists. There are multiple forms of the media. You and i are a part of the media where we predated the other side of the story. There was a time where people determined what was the news and suddenly came along and this was a wonderful thing because suddenly now, we could talk about issues people care about, didnt look down on people and it was the other side of the story. But something has happened where that diversity of devices did become for Many Americans on both the right and the left these alternative reality site was. They had their own facts that we dont communicate. We are in bees go chambers, whatever you want to call them and as a result of that, what happened is the political debate really has been dumbed down and you do have the propaganda that can distort the reality in a way that is the mainstream but also we are at a point now theres a reason why we use terms like actual era where we have a tolerance for we ought to be a realitybased movement. Our arguments are better in our facts are better, then we dont need to stay within our alternative reality silo. Host i identify as a conservative and also a feminist. And when it comes to like President Trump and what the media can do, there were good people charlottesville. We know that there were people from the city. People were going there to be against the nazis in the clan and other people were there who were not with them because they cared about the historical relevance regarding statute or they didnt want that to be torn down and there were also that were not in it with white supremacist and it was a mix of people who were there and i think this is one of the problems where we hear what we want to hear or choose to promote what he wants to be the case. Is that trump mentioning there were lots of good people there or good people in general at charlottesville would be true that you are either not associated if you are protesting against the statute and you didnt need to be associated with the clan or the nazis if you are protesting for the statute to stay. And this is where i think also in our world where at least with talk radio and cspan and booktv we have more time that one statement can be expanded out based on our opinion of i think the personal expectations and then that becomes the truth of the judgment and then someone like myself saying this is what i heard, and i dont believe in that fashion, then that is judged as a luther or racist. How do we bridge the gap to people who generally agree on the issues and are seeing things differently because of the passion and forming the debate . We need to have these conversations. But i spent a good deal of time in this book talking about the issue and the role they play and who they are and what they believe and how they represent a thorough repudiation of american conservative values. It is based on the idea and they reject the idea and the values of the declaration of independence explicitly they dont believe that america is an idea. They believe it is a geographical location. People with certain ethnic and racial backgrounds. And there is a dark side there and the reality is throughout the campaign, donald trump had more than one opportunity to reject and to speak out against them and he delay again and again. It is a pattern. This is not a oneoff. This is a problem. It is at the heart of the conservative movement if we are not willing to say the left is not right. Liberalism have to ask though the communists in the late 1940s. Conservatism have to expel in the 60s. We have to deal with the old right. And unfortunately, have a donald trump then defeated i think there would have been a reckoning among the conservatives about how this would happen. But now, some of these folks, it shouldnt be a misunderstanding, and they do feel empowered and emboldened by this prevents political environment. And conservatives who recognized them for who they are neat to be outspoken about this. This is our test right now, our time. Host so even with the changes the president has made and steve being out of the white house and mike pence being his choice for Vice President , and you see in this dynamic the other individuals out, other people coming in as the chief of staff, a variety of different kinds of approaches now this is the initial choices and decisions what do you think is happening in the process . It has been about nine months. Are you heartened by some of the changes made and do you think that hes on the right path, guest does almost two separate issues that a number of appointments have to be very encouraging and the best thing the president has done so far. Although by the time people watch this some of them may be gone from the administration considering the humiliation donald trump has presided over. He presided over a symbolic transition. He was unqualified and unfit to be president and proved that in a moment he walks in the door by people that have no idea what they were doing it created the chaos around it. The presidency isnt shaped by the staff but the character and the judgment of donald trump. Hes not going to change so we will see. Give it a few minutes. Obviously general kelle kelly ht been able to control the twitter feed. And in terms of conservatism, keep in mind again if we acknowledge that he is a man of no fixed principles whatsoever whose ignorance of the issues have been made manifest on a regular basis, then its hard to see that he would have a dramatic turning point so what is the future of conservatism . The start and move and begin working with the democrats . If he makes an alliance with Chuck Schumer and nancy pelosi, but he still argue that this is a great conservative movement and that it is impact . Many people never viewed him as a conservative in that fashion that this was about a reformation. It was about getting someone who would understand business and could be able to make decisions and who could get things done. This is part of the other problem when you look at his Approval Rating today it is the highest since the inauguration and its gone between eight to 10 . Americans still see an obstructive dynamic. And yes, part of his job is to get things done in congress but americans are not seeing that he is the problem. They are seeing the same thing that we have seen for decades against whether things are done in congress, what kind of things do move forward, is it about limited government, is about handling the budget properly, and american are not seeing that when it comes to who is getting something . Guest no american president has had lower ratings in the first year than donald trump. We have 60 who do not think that he is levelheaded or fit for office. His Approval Rating has been host we are talking about the same america he is under 50 but they are giving congress eight or 10 so it is that america who is looking at the spectrum viewing him more positively but it could be higher, the disastrously for congress. So the political element of this, americans are watching and assessing in a certain way. For most people that voted for him come it seems we want him to be successful because we want the country to be. We have seen of course the markets go up and we have got 4 trillion more. The dollars are in the marketplace because the stock market. People are anticipating the issue with the tax cuts if this is another test for congress. This is all about affirming and bringing them to get things done but its also about governing and this is a test now for both congress and the president. But the obamacare dynamic is the key and a microcosm of what people are rejecting. Six years o of repeal and replae and defend when it came down to it, they would do it. How do you explain that in the spectrum of why people rejected the system . Guest i think it is an indication of how the governing philosophy every republican said we are going to get rid of obamacare and this is again one of the stories i tell is the outrage machine out there. Making promises they couldnt fulfill the promises that are unrealistic and then when they are not realized, convincing the base that they were being betrayed and we needed to rise up. So what happened is we treated this dynamic of overpromising, under delivering. And then suddenly the republicans are the dog catching the car and it turned out they didnt have any good answers and they had a president that couldnt be bothered either to learn the details of the policy or to sell the policy. So, we ended up with, and you and i probably remember when we heard about obama being rammed through. Compared to what the republicans wanted to do without a single hearing or debate, the president didnt have a single town hall meeting and yet we are surprised that failed. I think the worst thing that happened to conservatives in the last eight months is that desire constantly to enable the dysfunction come to rationalize the fact that you have a president that will not lead and then to find a scapegoat. I think for many supporters he cannot fail, he can only be betrayed, stabbed in the back. So it is to find someone else to blame. Host but is there anything that he could do that would soften your rhetoric about, you called him many things had condemned him effectively. Is there anything he can do, and again you are updating. Have you met the president by the way . Your conclusions are based on what youve seen and youve made the judgment which is what our job is to do, to come to judgment. Is there anything hbut is thered do that would in his efforts to lead in the accomplishments he has had so far, is there anything you can praise, whether it is the response is to respono hurricanes, the stock market, the efforts at least in his division and goals of the people hes hoping and implementing them anything at all . Guest it is and mean mindless proposition or that im against everything he does. In fact, we want to push him when he does something you agree with, you applaud him for example those that have been outstanding and many of the other things i think some have been pushing the country in the right direction and pushing to do more of the right things. But i am not being better personality. I dont feel that Donald Trumps personal success needs to be defended in every particular case. Im not going to rationalize or pretend that when he is behaving in a buffoonish or clownish way that hes not in when hes reckless and dangerous i think he needs to be called reckless and dangerous and when he is speechwriting the conservative values i think we need to say that hes betraying the values. So, that is a point of independence. And i would hope the conservatives understand. I mean, this may be the ultimate and i know you understand this victory for republicans. You win the battle but at such a cost you lose the war. Unless we stand up, we are going to be stand by all of this. Are we going to rationalize and defend and support everything this president doesnt pretend certain things are not happening . Postcode for people here in this program and getting the impression that all is lost when we describe a certain success if he is the person you described, it is fascinating that some can happen with praise that hes received that hes been in puerto rico and i think that again this politics everywhere and we know the difference between the mayors who are democrats and those that are working to make sure that this is what some people say is a narrative, to denigrate him enough to where nothing can get done. People are concerned that that is what is happening. Host guest this is what fascinates me. They believe he is a leader and hes strong. Actually, hes thinskinned and plays the victim card. He can take a punch. Host hell is this when you say we want him to succeed and you cannot do that simply by just being in groupthink. How does that conversation into those accusations were descriptions, how does that help us actually encourage someone to be a leader and engage . A lot of people think that it doesnt. But this is not forward thinking when it comes to the president and the governing of the country at this point. Guest i want to shift the focus a little bit. What is he doing to us commit to conservatives, to the Republican Party, what is he going to the culture, to the level of discourse because after donald trump, we have lost. Some will be positive and some will be negative. I think that the damage he is doing to the causes i believe and care about is going to be longlasting. And i also think that the damage to the country is going to be longlasting because first of all, look, the dishonesty. Host we know that you dont like his style. But that is an interesting point. I think that this is part of the important conversation of recognizing and us going through a very passionate and political framework seeing on the surface immediately what we are going to respond to as individual, so as a feminist come as a woman, and believing that there could be certain alternatives, always we remember Ronald Reagan, the remaining engaged, seeing what the alternatives are, but conversations have been about what is being misrepresented what is not and then coming to a conclusion as many women did that impact she isnt who we are going to be marrying. But that that nation was at such a point where in fact yes, we are looking for leadership and someone to change the trajectory. When we are making the decisions voting into the difference between what we think of the nature of what the job has been and what we expect so this is where this happens. But if we are talking about a country and damage it with your concerns certainly about the president coming and we talk about what the congress has become and its dysfunction and what youd write about here are the people that you apply here, paul ryan, the history of the conservatism which people know there is a section that is helpful in the sense of the nature of the conservative intellectual portal has been and what it is now and what matters to you and where this foundation is. So what do you say when bill kristol is also showing his anger on a regular basis on twitter. Paul ryan and mitch mcconnell. Youve got the basis separate from trump is being able to present an alternative to. Doesnt that speak about the party itself or the lack of leadership . Guest this is an interesting question because one of the questions i have to ask this donald trump represents continuity in the movement in the Republican Party, was it a hostile takeover in otherwise Healthy Party or was it a black swan events and came to the conclusion the dysfunction of ththat dysfunction andthe partyg condition. Obviously, donald trump is a symptom of standing alone in the Republican Party that obviously he is in effect as well and i think that in all of those divisions and that incoherence playing out on a National Stage where we are at right now. Republicans control the presidency, the house and senate. Theoretically what is getting done, what is getting accomplished. And i think this is the moment where you step back and say theyve gotten very good at understanding what it was against. We hate barack obama, we want to beat Hillary Clinton, we want to make liberals cry. We hate the news media. But what are the policy answers and it turns out to be when youre sitting right here right now wondering whether we make it to the end of the year without a legislative accomplishment. Accomplishment. Accomplishment. That is an indictment of the Republican Party starting from the president down through congress. Host there is a view that that is deliberate congressional leadership also been very critical of the president are not interested in helping him succeed. Do you agree or not . Guest almost all the problems donald trump experienced have been selfinflicted. I understand he likes to play the victim card, but the comments come at the decision to fire the fbi director, a variety of these things have been done to himself. So to the extent that he is not succeeding, the buck stops the there. Can you imagine that had been on Donald Trumps desk, then its like who can i blame . I am very critical of paul ryan who i consider to be a friend because in fact, i think that he has made a Faustian Bargain with donald trump at he is working so hard to get some of the legislation through and is willing to overlook a lot of things that the president has done and a lot of things that he has said. So keep in min mind a day pass d Obamacare Repeal and he doesnt mind that the house representatives are likely to pass some sort of a reformed so ultimately, at what point does the buck stop with donald trump . I understand people who feel the need to defend him but at some point arent those enabling him to . Go explain why you can boost things and why he did it while you are doing that, till the others that you brought to washington get out there and actually Start Talking about these issues. Where was the leadership on healthcare, where was the leadership . Postcode many people see as we discussed the gop and the entire government, the senate is not on another planet. We know whats happening. Of course they know each other and that leadership together. A lot of people have grown past the idea that there is this genuine fight or at least a recognition that the republicans in the house can say we did pass this time it seems then nothing does get done so you have to motion like whoa we did this and we cant do anything else about obamacare or taxes until we get into the house. Then we gave them the senate, gave them the white house for at least someone who articulated in the campaign exactly what his focus was going to be. Yet it is as though theres a convenient stop where you talk about selfinflicted wounds are not separate from the president , arthur choices on the agenda and legislatively that the buck stops at congress at this point getting things from the white house onto his desk. Guest let me suggest it turned out in retrospect of making a reality tv star president of the United States but had no political experience whatsoever and was known to have problems with the truth and no ability to lead in this particular way, maybe that was not a good idea. Host people with the legislation getting it through has been there for decades. To suggest that with all of the experienced republicans have, and the speaker ryan and john mccain decades of knowing the process. To blame it on the president exclusively, this is what people say is not making sense. Where can mcconnell go and what should he be doing . Is it time for new leadership, this is the other question, is it time for the gop to have leadership moving things forward . Guest 1981 massive tax cuts were passed. Ronald reagan didnt make excuses come even democraticcontrolled congress. The president didnt spend time on twitter attacking people by name destroying them. Guest host so youre saying that he is not seeing enough of donald trump . Host guest im sayinguest co. Ig is this what conservatism has become as opposed to saying we actually stand for, lets talk about our ideas and small government, lets talk about the deficit. Lets talk about that. The conversation that we are having is the conversation that in some ways we have with the left where they say donald trump is conservatism, he is the conservative movement and represents everything that youve ever stood for and i host they feel that theyve already spent years denigrating and controlling the narrative and its easier to put him in that box. Ive been discussing it discussed constantly nobody expected him to be a conservative which is maybe what the point was that we need a business man of action and so i am not arguing at all but this is about the conservative movement, this is about triage, this is about who you find in the emergency room when you are brought in and lets get this done so we can move to get back to ourselves. Guest you have a crisis and they bring in an experienced doctor an tonight on to bring ia reality tv star with Donald Trump University or somebody thats never been in a hospital in his life who doesnt know what hes doing and is known for making promises he cant keep. Host if we take that and have faith in that decision for a moment and that we have the doctors and people that have been experienced in congress and the house and the senate who seem not to be able to move in their area of guest lets talk about why it failed. We both come from a liberal background and here we are this is what excites me a great deal about politics in the country, here we are talking about the conservative movement. I am talking about triage. You are a republican i identify as a conservative and you do as well. This is a bridge that hasnt been bad when it comes to both. So what you stand for and what i stand for and what we are worried about. We have the same worry with individuals that we think needs to be dealt with. No one if congress to the stalled. Its versus what can we do then as conservatives legislatively through the conversation to get things done and move past the trail of what the people did during the election. As i said, where we see the exposure are the problems in the conservative movement and there is a phrase i dont know if i used it in the buck but book bt a lot which is the fact it turned out a lot of things i believe in that we have been representative of the conservatives that we have been seeing the same thing for many years as ive do same solutions that were in the 1970s still need to be applied right now but as conservatives, we have not adapted. We havent really changed our approach to these issues. Now some people would argue isnt that what donald trump did comdid, and i do think that he d in some unfortunate ways but lets face it this should be the moment of maximum success for the Republican Party. As you pointed out we need to win all these things and yet here we are. So its more than just a donald trump and thats why i try in the book to talk about the whole conservative movement and how its been tearing itself apart over decades and years. Host and its valuable not only in your personal story and how americans change political politically. You go on to become a journalist but then just like your father a liberal didnt like what he saw adapted and changed to the events that were happening. Americans arguably are going through the same thing right now and the value of your view of the conservative movement, the intellectual elements of the definition of the measure of ideas but also the conservatives are much more fluid because they are okay and not to ideas. We have a few moments here. At the end of your book you discussed you have some advice with the goal of wanting the country to succeed as i have al of wanting the president to succeed. What would you say to people as we are trying to define ourselves in triage saving the nation with a very unique man at the helm what can conservatives and what can congress do to bring us through this to remain but a shining city on the hill . Guest i think we need to go back to the concept of william f. Buckley and the balance of competing values that they fused into ordered liberty. I also think we need to go back to First Principles like for example lets make sure that we do no harm. But remember why the constitution was written that it was. Its not so one party can get everything it wants to. The process matters. The rule of law matters, respect for the rule of law matters. It would be great if we could get back to a moment that he would hold eacwewould hold eache same standards as opposed to this world you live righ live re we have complete moral relativism where everybody switches their standards depending. I wish we could go back to that. And frankly, i think that there is a been diagrammed between liberals and conservatives and the overlapping planes are very small but important, things like truth, the rule of law, the importance of the balance of powers, all of those things to keep our democracy intact and also to realize we dont need to keep up the cycle of the hyper polarization. My concern is that politics isnt about ideas or principles or accomplishments anymore. Its about tribal loyalty and attitude and it is making us more divided in a lot of ways and i would hope that the voices on both sides of the divide would find a way to keep that kind of a conversation going. Host for the average person doesnt involved in politics is so much and even the democrats that voted for the president , their goal, their agenda, what they want for the future, daisy the difficulties, the hyper partisanship, also as a problem, right . Guest sure. Host doesnt that speak to this constant argument about what the president is or is not as a part of the problem he is transparent. But isnt this kind of where america delivers that we rise above it together in the expectations to how hes been handling the crisis isnt that what the goal should be as it has been facilitated by the working functioning government to do things that help the average person isnt that what the Republican Party and conservatives stand for . Guest realities on the ground making peoples lives better and are we making it easier for people to get into school and will they actually learn things, we have Economic Opportunities and growth, all those things and an ethical framework of government. But the American People are good and great and resilient and hopefully they can get through this. Host i think we will. It is a very exciting time and this is a great book, how the big right lost its mind. You can disagree theres lots of great stuff in here and the intellectual history of the movement and what we can and should be doing. Great stuff. Charles sykes, thanks for being with me. Great conversation. [inaudible conversations] is a pleasure to be back here tonight