Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Cornel West Robert George 20171204

Enemies. Robert george, when did you first meet the man sitting next to you . In the 1990s after he came to princeton and we are together in faculty seminars but we didnt know each other very well. We wouldhe just say hello to eah other and we interacted in the seminars. We began teaching together and 2007. Thats whe when our Teaching Partnership began. Host how does the Teaching Partnership began . Guest they set up a magazine i think it was called green light [inaudible] taking a course with a civil liberty and he asked who i would like to have a dialogue with and i said i would love a chance to dialogue so we got together and had about a 45 minute dialogue on the recording. He continued to talwe continuedt least three or four hours that weve got to continue this conversation and weve now been going for 11 or 12 years around the country primarily. But we have had a wonderful time and the family is just magnificent. We know the truth is bigger than us, but we aspire to it. The meeting that began the Teaching Partnership and the green knight magazine. They wanted a feature in each issue of one professor by another. So, foraj the first issue they said we would like you to do the interview and he kindly said he would like to interview me. So, technically that was wasnt a conversation, it was an interview. Succumb andrew came to me and said pr starting a magazine. We would like the first to feature cornell west as the interviewer and we told him he could interview anybody he wanted and he said he would like to interview you. Are you willing to be interviewed by professor west . I said let me get this straight, he said he would like to interview me . I want you to send a message back. Tell him professor george says it is i should be seeking you. He didnt catch that reference. I said of course i wont do it, so we have that wonderful dialogue that is included and on and on to the car and im holding my hand on the car latch for about an hour. Then just about a couple of the after that, he remembers the faculty. We got a letter from the dean oo the college saying we want to encourage more of our senior faculty members to teach seminars. We want more interaction between the top more established scholars and freshmen. So, when i saw that letter and the request it occurred to me we should have that conversation of cornell and i were having with 16 wonderful bright and enthusiastic. Why only 16, why did you limit it . There was a story behind that as well because once the word got out that we were going to be teaching it together, they have to read all of the essays to see which ones we would choose him after that we decided we are not going to try to do that we will just let the Registrars Office choose randomly and then they decided they would do it on a firstcome first serve basis. They could start signing up at 7 00 on a particular morning and then of course at 7 00 this morning, they crashed the computer system. Thats the beautiful thing is one that teaches in the undergraduate education and handson each write a thesis and focuses very much on the undergrads at harvard, yale, berkeley, chicago and wonderful places that when its a highquality education, princeton is number one. We invited you on to talk about your book. We have Harvard University press in princeton University Press who are interested in having us do that for them and we felt like the trouble is hes got these days the guys with a lot of responsibilities and obligations. We traveled around the country doing conversations and so forth, so we will get to it. Weve done some interviews together and we recently had one in the the Washington Times and washington examine your and also in the printed magazine. One of the things you do in your book the clash of orthodoxies as you allow other scholars to review queue data readout you. And the humanities and social sciences, we learn by producing evidence and leading a critic respond. Thats how intellectual life in the field of philosophy began with socrates engaging critics and subjecting their views permitting them. We are oldfashioned scholars and we believe in that kind of education. And youve spent enough time talking about socrates and aristotle. They used to say pray for me. It was the education and transformative dialogue that makes us examine our presuppositions to talk about this over time how do we learn how did i utilize when you give up a presupposition to become more willing to grow and develop because you learn how to live as you live as you die. Its the way that you view the world knowing there will be endless progress and possibilities always in the name of what you are after. Is it fair to say that its about examination . Is also more than just self examination but a matterr of sef surrender. Hes not just examining himself, he is take this and see what you can do with it so what you get so forth andty and a self surrendering something bigger than you do the prophetic witnessou you cant love until e disagree and there is some overlap so whatever the barriers are we are going to find that even as we wrestle with the various issues. To render your self capable is the fulfillment and a great paradox surrendering ourselves and being christlike. But getting to the point that you are capable of that, you need the self mastery to control your own wayward desires and your own passions to put them under the control of the reason. Appetite or fashion is under the control of the reason. Passion is in charge and the goal of creating rationalization for activity that can only harm us. How do we get to the selfmastery . The liberal Arts Education comes in. N. We get to the selfmastery by interrogating our own assumptions putting on the table our deepest identities and that is a big challenge because people dont want to do that. We tend to wrap our emotions around our convictions which is good in a way because we would never be motivated for justice for the common good but yet if we wrap the emotions too tightly we abandon any possibility of subjecting ourselves from our assumptions and arguments to criticism. We become incapable of eating what we should aspire to be and that is an interrogators of ourselves. Host guest what he is getting at is something that is so badly needed that you lose the quality of the character as it relates to the various virtues and values but thats something the market cannot teach and there is something deeper going on. It is about integrity, honesty, decency, generosity. When we talk about this one of the Great Questions is always why did socrates never cry and jesus never laughed. He puts the selfmastery rightly so but that is in the proper response to your mothers funeral. But it appears the proper response because socrates never cries so there is a love of wisdom that is important. He weeps precisely because the selfmastery still has a role but its not enough to surrender. The tears shatter the numbness inside of ones heart and the indifference you are a human being like everybody else and as you know when you go to this church is we are teaching the world so much about how to love. Hes in his own tradition even given our disagreements. Every human being faces the question of what is the point of my life. What is worth living for what itisworth doing or what is worthwhile. Every human being is going to be in a certain culture and will have to react to what is coming after him or his culture because it is easy to believe and we are in a culture that reinforces our belief that what its worth living for is to stop us from a prestige, social standing. Ggolfgolf isnt bad in itselft depends on how you use those things that to make them the ultimate goal is to see what human life is all about and this is the mission for ourselves and the students to make people understand that the integrity, honor, decency. These are truly fundamental to y and make life worth living. This is what we should aspire to. Not for the well for glory or power or influence or status or social standing. That is a big challenge for those that are high achievers. Places like princeton and harvard those students are going somewhere and theyve got a big future with investment banking, medicine and other fields. But they face powerful temptations to believe that it is standing in its status and power and wealth and being looked up to by other people that is what matters. If you havent gotten close to being there until you have the selfmastery. You try telling a princeton or harvard student or any student these days in this culture view might be called upon to stand up for what you believe in. If you are openminded and engage you may have a set of opinions that marks you as an outsider and somebodyy to be rejected. So you have the integrity to stand for that knowing that it could cost you in terms of further education, social standing, and your friends and things like that. We think back and we remember how she died. He refused. It was the unpopularity and the free speech. He gets in a lot of trouble. In addition to that, he is willing to deal with the unpopularity of his commitment to the understanding and i try to do that within my own progressive circles because it is not a question of popularity. We want to be in the world and not of the world, we want to be against the world and tied to a kingdom that is so much greater and grander. The kingdom of god is within you and everywhere you go you ought to leave a little effort behind. Theres coldness, cruelty, hatred and resentment that is the dominant way of the world. How are you going to come to terms with it . You can always feed into the self righteousness but not the character of your own. The problem is that we tend to be tribal and tribalism today is a problem in our culture. If yourwn own convictions and ld you to a view that put you outside of the team and you publicly dissent, you could be in big trouble. Thats true whether you are a progressive order like me in the most recent president ial campaign i couldnt bring myself to vote for donald trump. I dont want to litigate that right here. I am just using this as an example. And because i would not play for the team, i got a lot of heat from the team. On a softer as anything worse than donald trump and that the pushback from others but they found themselves in the same position when he refused to support Hillary Clinton he got the same i was getting on the conservative sit side from the liberal and Progressive Side from the left. He wouldnt say okay im going to stay silent on this for the team. Host between the two of you how many times have you been arrested . Arrested . Guest [inaudible] last time was it down in ferguson . They got c a call how much do yu need, he knows im broke. [laughter] but thats the kind of love and respectt and support that he ha. Was it to two counts on the International Religious freedom i had served and was elected so i was sworn in by the chief justice of the Supreme Court. I asked if he would do me the honor of holding the bible for me. Thwe got the wonderful people of upstate new york. It was. Tubman, the wonderful people gave us the bible, and imagine what that must have cost a poor woman in her time. It shows something about her faith, but in any event they gave it on hold when i was being sworn in. As we were walking up the steps to go in them building, im walking with brother cornell and as we passed a couple police officers, i see one of them catch his eye, and the two of them stare for a moment and give each other a nod and we continue walking in. I turned to him and see what is that all about and he said this is the first time ive been to the Supreme Court when i wasnt here to get arrested. We went to jail for a critique of wall street or Something Like that. It was a magnificent moment. There is a new 25th edition out on the race matters. In the introduction you write we live in one of the darkest moments in history, a bleak time of blackout and imperial meltdown. I need a relative eclipse of the honesty and decency that we have normalized to say weve made them a normal way of life if we naturalize the criminality which is to say we make the crimes look as if they are natural. It could be drum strikes, market manipulation, none of them go to jail. It could be so many different ways but what we need is our prophetic fight back. It is a moral and spiritual issue as well. Not an abstract, but by example. Right now the american empire is a neoliberal. Like how many times a year do you hear the word on television its obviously this and its obviously that. That is to show that they are part of this park crowd. We dont believe in that and this isolation, we believe in the way some and its tied to theo richness. That is just a sign of the emptiness and symptom of society that is idolized smart and rich. Barack obama dropped 26,000 in the last year. He got a nobel peace prize. Something like as many strikes. What happens is the spectacle can hide in the substance when it comes to morality and spirituality and this is what breaks the ideology. The substance is always deep in the political ideology. Theres a nuclear catastrophe, mobile catastrophe, survival of the slickest and the smartest thing thats also an economic catastrophe. Its to the bottom 160 million, they have the equipment and 50 of our fellow citizens. This is grotesque. It looks like the louis 14 times and now we havee a tax deal to o tightening the benefits for the poor. What did you do to the least of these unto us, the poor, immigranttheimmigrant, the musl, black, indigenous, so forth and so on, that is a spiritual orientation. His behemoths. When it comes to economic equality i dont have that as the goal of equality and dignity with the declaration of independence all men are created equal but i have chosen a career as an academic i know that isnt highpaying i could have gone to law school and made more money or Business School and make more money than that because he generally they make more money. As long as it is fair making more money in other people with economic equality but negative four opportunity because we are losing with those prospects of upward mobility i grew up in West Virginia in central appalachia i remain close to people there my entire family are there all of my family my High School Friends this was donald trump why . Because they feel the effects of the neglected and left behind economically, culturally, and they feel bigotry and prejudice but certainly on the basis of their own experience there is the cultural elite that has only its own interest in mind not the people of central appellation values of those peoe so those that condemn the trump voters ive got a friend of donald trump i will h give his him some credit for some good things he has the bottle so that things but the is a mistake to imagine that those supporters of Donald Trumps largest racist and a big hit san horrible people they have legitimate reasons even the establishment of either party responded and he beecher 02 them reach out to them know whether they were wise to do that i have been debating that in western virginia but he noticed there were forgotten and left behind and held in contempt and with very economy and he benefited. Host cornel west do you agree . They are a diverse lot there is a slice that our homophobic and increase the stand but that does not exhaust the whole group broke there is always the slice but there is also the trump voters that voted for bernie and obama. So to keep track of that diversity you never want to downplay the role of the legacy of White Supremacy in the country no doubt about that precisely because it is so vicious you cannot allow it to be the only thing the you see from these other cultures or the black intellectuals little you can see is White Supremacy that is always linked to Something Else. This link to slavery, patriarchy, of homophobia of a also empire black and white soldiers a come together to go to the philippines treat them like they were cockroachs because no the risense empire so you haven to be very honest of to tell the truth tell the truth of who they are they are heterogeneous many were suffering under the policies under barack obama of the top 1 percent cut 95 percent of the Income Growth that is morally grotesque but i want a floor of 01 to focus on poverty. The poverty is attacked i am trying to do with barack obama with the Democratic Party here they have no concern about poor people tied to upward mobility with the professional middle class coming to people who who were working or report he had very little to say other than with movement on health care a Market Driven program coming in out of his the heritage probation coming from mitt romney is not known to be on the edge of fighting poverty but he did sunday some things in regard to health care that is for the Health Care Program comes from to be honest about that. Lets try to tell the truth for ruth parties when it comes to these issues of poverty putting pressure on the Republican Party but the underside of this to be honest is the Market Driven Corporate Media to make him the center of the of entertainment to make big money of one of the ceos made a very clear donald trump is bad for the country but good for us because of revenues and redeems and every twitter. And brady and spur growth Bernie Sanders cut 20 seconds to every 30 minutes it is Market Driven even in the media thank god for cspan. Can you imagine but it would be in this country without cspan . Because it did amazon Corporate Media. Msnbc . Those are propaganda machines. Now they are kind enough to invite amazon and we have dialogue but leonora youre notou going to get the most balanced view they have their own agenda. You have to be interested in the truth not your agenda. This is highly relevant in education especially Higher Education but you have got to tell the truth but too often quite extreme whitewashes American History so you take out the unsavory but the other side is equally false history but this is the al whole story of the American Experience of the imperialism leaving many people with those foundational principles which is what makes a country great what is exceptional about america . Dust of the earth than flesh and blood it is not us as human beings to be exceptional those principles on which we were founded but it has taken a long time to live s up to increase still dont fully and we probably never will because of those high aspirational principles we hear it so often it is a cliche but we need to stop them listen fed these troops are self evident all men are createdie equal with certain unalienable rights with life liberty pursuit of happiness. A nation founded on that with that potential for greatness and the need to communicate fact and tell the truth but not imagining that history is not just an okay he did not take a french revolutionary attitude because we need to build something new and nobody else has seen before. Martin luther king to the American Family despite the man was ade slaveholder he came back to say it is right and good will live up to the principle. There wrote the check and make good on the check. And want to get your to that but first we want to welcome our viewers with are monthly in the program we 12 invite one of their this month it is unique professors Robert George and cornel west for years taught a class together now cornel west is at harvard Robert George is a princeton. Host very quickly and we will show you a hero of the books he still have written beginning with cornel west out row brandnew his group race matters 1993. Democracy matters 2004 his autobiography to thousand nine. His most recent book 2014. Now Robert George a couple of hisis books from 1995, the clash of orthodoxies 2001. Country girl union a Conjugal Union and we will begin with protocols and just the minute but professor west your reaction . That condition of truth is always to allows suffering if we tell of the course of of buyers into makes the point the United States there is a whole host of the efforts of people who are escaping ugly conditions to our arrival and a land and there are other people there and we have to decide to cover exist or dominate or genocidal assault . The United States as a Colonial Society was a successful revolutionary effort to overthrow the empire from which it came with that grand idea that they were talking about. They have universal implications but have those very of the realities like those men women and the patriarchal households those who were marginalized but with those ideals in the context of u. S. Social experiment we have made progress. What about humanity of Indigenous People . Gays and lesbians in working people . Same time we have a long way to go and no doubt about that but just trying to tell the truth to understand what are the impediments and major obstacles . What we wrestle with the test friends of the market economy not the crony capitalism or reckless the is a fair capitalism but i believe if in the market economy in the history of this nation results in a monopoly the robber baron of the 1890s a disproportionate amount of influence with very little democratic accountabilityno but what i could agree with two of the degree that these regulations do not allow for te ways in which those that are thoroughly and accountable. We have our dear brother i was just with him this week he is one of the finest human beings you would ever meet so were not talking about the character of an individual there are other friends of his with much less moral character but it is the structure that we talk about the oligarchy the monopolies that do not lend themselves to democratic accountability. Bo host could he put everybody in the triumph to talk about from earlier . Talking about france the way the various forms of power are keeping track of theirun humanity as individuals. So there are certain individuals there are middleclass people who choose is a moral ways but talking about character what kinds of choices that they make with those structures in place they have to be confronted and structures to have the most benevolent class of slave owners and the world with slavery and it still evil. Because the structure of slavery iss evil and we understand that to be as a structure, evil. So we dont want to reduce those structures to individual characters because they can choose within ethical resonance but part of that fascinating part of a conversation trying to deal with this complex between structures we talk of making human being is moral. Without the indictment of slavery is still isnt enough. I have a few points to make. First, the last thing that we want remade disagree but the socialization of government control. M but they had a crucial role. But while i do believe that is regulated some things should not be for sale. I agree. With those market values you dontt want them to invade those relationships. When it comes to regulation it is a very tricky area. I think the only ones we should have or what is necessary but there are many that our necessary if we over regulate we defeat the purpose because we empower Large Enterprises to use regulatory obstacles to prevent smaller competitors from getting into competition. You need why is regulation and letting the market operate fairly without exploitation to undermine those institutions like the family with market principles. When we do that, we liberate the market for those less well off people to create the social mobility and Economic Opportunity to allow people to rise which is theec greatest effect of the american story of many people have come from other lands as immigrants to this country withhe nothing and have become wealthy . There is nothing wrong with being rich in itself. But think of how many people in this country are the children orril grandchildren or immigrants themselves who came with nothing or very volatile but through hard work and initiative willing to take a risk think how many are generous benefactors to every worthy cause to the cause of human health and education fed is dependent on the generosity. Philanthropy is not justice is the force for good. Ns but that means the Power Centers spread begin to have to be antiauthoritarian across theem board. We agree that crony capitalism and regulations and then they are crushed and then to empower the competitorss not to voodoo away with the market or to undermine the market to empower those competitors. Not just monopolies and oligopolies but to try to gain a foothold in the market is organized labor. If workers have no say in the workplace for the most part they will not be treated right. We see this and West Virginia. Ho fed is a legitimate point with the corruption of labor costs of that color and gender and Sexual Orientation. Sova this fall i just finished teaching seminar at the public law school with a colleague were revoked that bader in by the teaching the traditional catholic and one thing that struckn me from 1891 all the way 1 up through the 100th anniversary of john paul ii that the pope said find a way to avoid the errors ofme socialism in government and the destruction of liberty that comes away with that. On the other side, of the kind of capitalism where people can use wealth to squeeze out competitors to get control of an Economic Situation and to engage in explication one of the thing the pope urged was to find ways for workers to participate not only in management where their voices are heard to benefit the businesses but also find ways to have equity participation especially in the larger firms win workers are the owners that only benefits the firm. I would much rather see is moving that direction then government control. Learn from the scandinavian norway. Finland and others we have workers on the board regarding the destiny of the enterprise they have some weight and substance that didnt go too far but right now there are years of crony capitalism but it has shifted it is no longer the Industrial Base with that and with that connection to a silicon valley. And was just thinking of the Civil Liberties problems that are created essentials with the new Public Square with those platforms like facebook where people should be able to interact but it is a private forprofit business but yet if facebook can exercise control over what is said with censorship then how far have we respected the of liberty is . Now replaces itself in the position of vote shall the of government for exorcising censorship until there are a lot of conservatives who of very brief and concern of cases where that point of view has been censored even those with other perspectives as well. But that seems to be a genuine worry. To have a truly competitive marketplace the business will w gravitate where that can occur but we dont have that with google or facebook and that is a challenge. And with the black agenda they say it is nearly impossible for the radical voices when it comes to the Public Square that is driven by these private companies because one of the fundamental questions is how do you equate to the Younger Generation the best examples of courage . Because without those milestones of the past all they have to go one is the chaos and that is about the neil liberal soul craft it isit spiritual and it tells young people that to be successful with material wealth and power and military might possess little of greatness of the quality of theiry spirit and moral character and that is the death knell of any civilization because no civilization can survive with those examples of who came before to give them a moral and spiritual heritage not just a great example of success with money status and power. This is the point i fundamentally agree i put it this way we have a wonderful form of government and our constitutional system has shownrk that was an open question in 1776 whether a republican government could work in the ancient world but it had failed we have a wonderful system and a constitutional system i would like us to be more faithful to with a thing we deviate from that but we have a great system. P if we could pushout crony capitalism getting the market to work competitively to get the benefits of better goods and services and to reduce cost but in the long run we cannot sustain the market economy with great benefits to our people live with dont have a moral foundation with the spiritual formation that sound understanding the market will the produce that forpr you. It is by the family because those institutions of Civil Society that assist the family as the transmitter of values and character. And we need to protect those institutions of society they doth more than just by for the kids getting them off to school but that is what they mean to be a transmitter of value. But the market, system depend on something that we can produce better honorable citizens to be good citizens of the republic if they cannot produce the of they rely on Something Else to do that. You talk about mom and dad and persons who have been shaped with the love of truth and justice and as christians we love our enemy now granted i think there is low whole host of a fiesta and agnostic that has great spirituality and moral character sometimes more than christians but i dont believe it is a prerequisite to. But as a christian myself i cannot preserve by sanity without viewing myself as part of a great tradition of a heated people if you get the history of the American Public what would happen to the United States of instead of Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman you have black members of the klan . What would happen if we didnt have morema of mr. King, jr. But of version of the clan . So in birmingham the responses the white girls on the vanilla side ofal town . That is what constituted the American Democratic both there would be a civil war every generation the to have a black, version of isis in the american democracy because you cannot keep track of that it was the moral and spiritual tradition but now i am a gangster. [laughter] with every is but the important thing is he is the linchpin if you live as thel heritage and to have that triumph over socrates with coercion with tremendous violence that the polls with a dialogue and a democracy with the attempt at a Civilized Society and we reached the point we are out of spiritual and moral gas in the United States that was not a foregone conclusion in the fifties and sixties that africanamericans would be peaceful with that conversion to the unorthodox and many others. Coming back with the racism t and jim crow and we know that victory of randolph. We crush them in europe they god with the help of black and white soldiers because we come backk home they were treated like secondclass citizens. What makes that possible to opt for the path of Martin Luther king was the black church. So that was sustained by the black church with decades of slavery and jim crow during the depression and people forget the role that the black church played in sustaining africanamericans are making it possible for the progress and as much credit as Martin Luther king deserves and wasnt just him starting 1961 or 69 or 65 but over generations. Us with one footnote this is where we get to the music the black musical tradition it is the greatest tradition of moral and spiritual for richard of courage and magnanimity and greatness of character but when you have courage and greatness of character that music that came out of the black church like ray charles and Aretha Franklin and marvin gaye and the whispers they were no longer christians but the music they were producing kept track of the humanity. And the black music played a fundamental role to humanize our relations with each other better not always tied to the black church it doesnt fit into christian dogma but it doesnt to christian love that plays the have those been no love brothers and sisters to have that intelligence and that genius and speaks to my soul the White Supremacy may be alive now hear this brother played the guitar he can play the guitar he understands the role of music coming from the church but also outside the that is still in forming just like Bruce Springsteen he is connected to the black church that is rooted in what he does it his own way that is a fascinating relation to the spiritual stuff that we need to go forward. In your biography you referred to yourself as a bluesman. Absolutely somebody whose personal narrative that indeed is in a musical narrative that is what blues is. Mattis catastrophe at the highest level like antigone how you respond . With style and compassion with your soul to connect to other people solan you played the guitar connecting on a human level whatever color they are coming of the jim crow mississippi genius to say this will not be stopped. Avenue here of Robert Johnson of rhythm music and he is not the only one you can talk about Charlotte Parker or Stevie Wonder but i believe the vanguard of the species of the artist but went along were has moral or spiritualo substance you know, that spiritual crisis is intensified. Host now we will get the callers involved. In the classroom after deal w with the subject matter and a textbook. Host alleged as the cost to attend this class . [laughter] with harvard i think the tuition andtu fees are row overer 60,000 . So those big and dumb as they can build which is now a big issue but because of their at there are very generous provincial aid packages a large percentage so most receiving Financial Aid may receive large packages and they think in a fair number of cases it is cheaper for student to go to harvard or princeton fan of o the home state univ. The because of the generous Financial Aid but the problem is there are a limited number of spaces at the universities and the competition for a space is extremely intense. S, has notable professors have you been encouraged to do fundraising . Not really. I began far becoming a fundraiser i do that now when princeton authorize me to found a program back in 2000 brother cornell well say Program Fellow slow this center was built on historic strength and political philosophy constitutional law and American History with those understanunderstan dings and the broader civilizations structures that made possible of the american founding but when i founded the medicinee program the University Made clear to assist with fundraising we would not be given allocation from the central t account i would have to raise the money each year for thew program so we have worked that up to a trillion dollars annual budget i am veryve grateful to them for helping enhance with some generous alumni and foundations that support us so because of that unusual circumstance i have become a fundraiser but brushed princeton didnt put that on me i wanted to do something new to introduce a model for other universities to enrich the understanding of the constitutional law principles and that a lot of wonderful people thiss way. And i have been very blessed to be a fellow you have felons the dont have economic support but was teaching in a freshman seminar and he could support that because some fellows to receive Financial Support who were just glad to be there and i invest clad to be there for the dialogue. That was funded in princeton university. You can see i am not the ideal person to go all out and raise money forov the of the institution because i like to be part of the convert to a station because my critique can be intense so were not sure this public face is the most effective in terms of raising money. If they are committed to a robust uninhibited conversation may be the sometimes. When i was on the guggenheim running through the arts program i had to make sure other places have access to instruments coming in with these big institutions concerned to ensure that they attend to what they are about. In that sense i would not mind the generally speaking to hold off. Even with myy fundraising our donors are almost universal including the conservative have been very much in favor of a program that we didom together. Not one complaint to sponsor his course last year. And the work that we do together around the country i found the supporters of the madison programmer just doesnt is elastic about that. They want to see that engagement fell one to see people working together of. It the i am not sure all by myself. [laughter] verizon we are together. We did have that experience last year speaking at the American Enterprise institute they treated us sore graciously as we were walking out he said i rusher a progressive think tank would a have treated you do as well as i have been treatedw. But i did wonder that. When you wonder of privileges easier to treat somebody when youre pushed against the overall. I dont see it that way. Dont give his those liberals with the left talk row e wall street and imperial expansion so we have to be very critical. Host we will get our callers and false beginning with a woman from maryland you are on with cornel west and teeeighteen. Go ahead. Caller with their true a spiritual serendipity i cannot of prayer and everything seems to fit but what do you think of disemboweling being in the republican and or Republican Party with that truly spiritual stance. We will let cornel west answer but it Robert George we will have of your audio figured out cornel west thanks for your own spirit to resonate what we try to convey but going in so many Different Directions i am just concerned talk about spirituality it is tied to social justice for the most vulnerable no matter who they are therefore when it comes to choosing this Political Party we should get the burled prevalence as a christian looking at his own society of those who were suffering. That could be a sign of a certain type of integrity and tied to big money for the trace is up to you either believe in dictating toob anybody choices. Host good afternoon we are listening. Caller i respect the law of carrying four others end of liberation of self and the concern for others that is something in respect that is what you gentlemen have talked about to champion but the question that ist have you also have the principles of our b country and the belief of our country and the way of the country was set up and part of that was congress with the action will compromise with the current tax bill there were some good things and bad things. How does that l deal with ba deal of morality when it is the incrementalin road when a compromise has bad elements . The only part of that you missed are the kind comments of if the discussion. I think that bill is a colossal failure no doubt about i it when you start slashing as corporations can fighters more lawyers to create loopholes already occurs offshore tax havens already not it was to take it down at 20 . I dont believe the conservative argument is if you the taxes of the rich somehow thatgr generates Economic Growth i do nazi evidence of that but i hear it over and over again so i do resonate with what you said initially with this particular tax bill it is a colossal failuree. My own view we do not need to to make businesses more, competitive to have the highest Corporate Tax rates in the world. But this is a classic case watching us hostage being made yes there a lot of compromises made some our unfortunate. Senator corker didnt go against the bill that further expanded the deficit i think a lot of ordinary people will get a small tax cut i think taxes will go up for some wealthy people and not others it will be complicated but at the end of the day i dont think we will have a fundamental change at all see this as a breakthrough or a big catastrophe it will shift things around a that is not fundamental change plan would like to see the rethinking of the whole system but that means tackling system that nobody wants to tackle and also here i introduce an issue of monetary to have artificially low Interest Rates for a very long time we have never had such a period of very low Interest Rates. Fe there are winners and the losers as a result and we dont pay nearly enough attention but there are senators of both sides there is not a lot of changes of mind your rearrangement but the format that we need is thatha happening. Every 53, a 0. 53 out of the dollar goes to the military that comes with serious accountability with the military industrial complexth battle comes out of either party that is tied to the Foreign Policy that oftentimes does not have financial accountability. I dont believe a Strong Military but is still has to be accountable to often it is just as easyy to say i increased military spending to make the nation stronger but then you dont have money forit schools or a living wage or decent housing. Massachusetts good afternoon. [applause] caller if they said one and one does not equal period they have not encountered this road show. Ha [laughter] m. I. T. Put their entire curriculum of malign could you get that freshman seminar filmed on line for lerner pbs or npr radio or a podcast . Get that out there. [laughter] the obvious power of this partnership is so extraordinary almost like left brain right brainhi because brother west and a brother other is so cruel. [laughter] sent one more thing but it is very important that we use social mediators and memes instantly i heard the word is so craft obviously it is the invention of brother west were to gather but to me the better it memes to focus on is integrity it is it connected to religion eidolon to bad mouth the sole what you did on the music that is true but for the Younger Generation i am 70 and a reformed jews as an intellectual but we will not be here much longer for we have to figure how to communicate the moral integrity to the next generation it is not their fault. Thanks to the caller for that kind comment. One of my graduate under courses of Civil Liberties will go online fairly soon the first online version will be there that is an experiment looking at what other scholars have done even the course on justice slammed hoping toy make that work but a seminar is different thing we have wrestled with the question is whether we should make this seminar more public we have reporters who ask if they could do an article or a newscaster something in the end we always decided no when somebody is watching and reporting or during an online status know they are on display the duty of the seminar is people know when theyre not on display will experiment with ideas to try out the thought even if it turns out it will my work and might be embarrassing to make sure in the format against any broader involvement of people. Is a shame because there is such magic but we cannot find aft way to do that. We could shift to a different format with a big lecture course the it if you get too big mouth shut off in a classroom. Ou [laughter] you will live some of the magics. [laughter] i also teach a course at the law School Called american democracy we but each lecture on you tueber youtube because by the time were done the class is over that is very important because weve learned so much from each other that the students can feel that energy with our interaction but it is the very special place that is the part of Marthas Vineyard so they are in good company but in terms of so craft with honesty and generosity she is absolutely right talking that in a fancy term i did not make this up and goes back to medieval social theory to modern times but integrity honesty generosity courage all of these just not need to be talked to vault but to be enacted on the ground touched by it touch and waaf five laugh and movement by movement that is a very important question but could we jettison religion relegated to the purely personal sphere talking in terms of things like integrity of our from religion . I cannot persuade myself it is correct if we go down that road basically were spending down the capital of our culture the jewish and christian tradition without replenishment so yes i know from firsthand experience as a religious leader to be a person of integrity but can we sustain a culture ofes integrity to defend these ideals making them meaningful can we do all of that by going silent about religion to defend ideas of honor and integrity . With the is material for since where there is no soul or sense of a person. I am dubious i have doubts the john adams famously said the constitution will not serve well other people that was a controversial and that and stay but even adams knew there were people that were skeptical aboutut religion what he is doubting is what ier doubt to cut the concept of decency and honor to be relegated to percival to sustain those to gratified ones own needs to put oneself first and to favor one self over others how to fight back against all ofs that . Cutting off the routes of basic understanding. The last bird from henry adams is what the you do with the death or the despair . But to be human is to shatter shudder knowing they were on the terms of extinction space that you could be misunderstood or to be rebuked and scored and then to allow was to come to terms going to disneyland sooner or later you have to go to orlando and live your life but if you work through that trying to do generate of learning how to love how to be fuller role to have an opennessss to others and without that the species that we know is crucial but also there are very secular times with ps eliot to say not only the sum of the best people that i know but religion has gotten in the way to promote the hatred of jews and muslims with the various crusades so how do you wrestle with that set of issues and an honest way . We can make a case with the human being that is capable of rationality but even in that way, at lax compelling to be made in the image and likeness of god and to have a transcendent significance budget now if the truth is if were just molecules in motion with no significance then we have to roll with it. But i am not sure about that. A democracy friendship that transcend the individuals but that is transcendent. Befall human beings are just stuff what greater significance. But even with that significance even if you were nothing of moleculesal not necessarily referring to the extra oh god by to ask the question how was this possible . But there is no. Even if mark twain and. Upper but it is rhetorical and metaphorical. But you know i do natural law. But i am just trying to think this position against mymy own. Host lets interrupt that from california. Caller how are you thinks poor taking my call professors. Here is the Bigger Picture i am very concerned regarding a potential military conflict between the United States and northth korea. Here is the exact question. Can you identify in person or in a group of people that may have an acceptable level of integrity and moral character to carefully and peacefully guide us away from any potential conflict that could affect not just United States but the entire world . I will hang up for the answer. Is a very serious question administration after administration w has come up with the way to deal with north korea and the dictators and all have failed. Op will President Trump do any better we can only hope so but it doesnt look like it. May be worse. Y it is a grave situation and we have very little control of the can do is put pressure on china to put pressure i on north korea assuming they are in that position to do that to some extent they do think that is true but there is also the question that is very dubious a wish i had a solution i campaign to of the rule i would trust to manage the most difficult of the situation i have my own favorite people in politics but it would be an enormous challengeon for anybody and so far in the administration has a record of failure. I wish President Trump has more plays and diplomatic maturity not as i was critical of obama but the use of language to row a the temperature it is all or nothing and were zero and behold year and a completely different climate so the childish narcissism but the hyperbolic rhetoric that President Trump uses compared to obama you have to read knowledge that it did is not the direct answerns to the question i dont know if there are individuals that could help to alleviate this thing. The possibility is to work through me be self correa has some secrets and thereforewe at the moment we could be looking at a nuclear catastrophe. My first president 1968. I admit Ronald Reagan with my brother. [laughter] and i tell you Ronald Reagan he was is the kind and gentle person very supportive of angela davis as the pressure out of ucla asas professor of philosophy so we had a nice little dialogue i was then 14. But i was raised by my mom and dad to treat people kindly even with ideological differences. Have you met donald trump . Yes. In Atlantic City he was the exact same waysi narcissisticng spectacle very little substance the richest in the hour room but he was one of the few white to brothers in the room so had to keep its mouth shut he was in there with mike tyson because we had a certain kindin of predominance of pushed into the margins you could tell the same person who never grew up with no account to bebe or responsibility to be beyond himself if somebody told me that he would be in the white house i would pull out of a tell them to get off a crack pipe no way he would be elected. But low and behold here we are. It is for the asking yourselves how did that happen . The Trump Supporters are the big part of that story but. Brother cornell that Ronald Reagan long before we knew each other but one of my brothers was that a reception for president clinton and he was telling me about this and had a conversation with him so i asked him how did that go . He is a strong conservative like myself. [laughter] he said it is interesting when he talked to me he made mehe feel i was the only person in the room as i was reporting the story he was telling it and i said it is interesting these politicians have that ability . That have a knack for talking to people making people like them and makeki them feel as though the politician is talking to them in the most important person in the world and he replied to say i have met both clinton on numerous occasions and he is just breaking it. Reagan it is real. [laughter] he was a master no doubt. But for him to appear. Host one of the things i can do was ask our guest their influences and a brooks and what they are reading here are the responses we got from Robert George and cornel west. Host we are back in the new york studios with cornel west and Robert George michigan you have been patient goahead. Rf caller actually battleground washington i have the right hand of book you coauthored called the war against parents so you reference the scandinavian economic model it isnt a mystery what causes healthy positive outcomes for children and families but the christian right and the libertarian right with the regulation policies that b l were devastates the poor and workingclass children and families that are now catching hell over the last 40 years Charles Murray is writing books attacking the poor working class for poor moral fiber or speaker ryan who claims to be a christian he makes required reading alice sherlund their bosses it is the i grant that epitomizes is that bush rob mentality. He was on fire and he was layingng it out there. Talking about the christian right certainly there is a lot of danger with the contempt that we do see too often that is not homogeneous see there. But certainly not just then christian right but the american right as a whole has a deep suspicion of government to play a fundamental rule that they could easily overlook the way of Government Intervention to simply be authoritarian we have to keep track of the government intervening billeting norway and finland even beloved canada just north of the border that plays a very Important Role to be in the hands of others party that is the question of perception and the christian rights suffers from a vent the judaic right the hindu and buddhist but i had great fun writing that book into a magnificent m things with that level of women and people of color and she is still going very strong here in new york but that was over 20 years ago so parenting is the old men on market activity. The higher the biological defensesm is the dogmatism that i am not a fan of ayn rand i am a sharp critic though all of the christian right i have my own criticisms as you might imagine but the work done by putnam and others of a cultural foundations of the moral collapse that we see not just minority communities but appellation of with the white workingclass communities but the cultural conditions of that our real. And with Patrick Moynihan as a Young Harvard professor as a deputy secretary of labor his study showed and he t could see the consequences of what that would be for those historically persecuted sector that meant widespread fatherlessness with the despair and drug addiction and violence and a incarceration of a vicious cycle. When he warned about that for his efforts he was labeled a racist and stigmatized so people were silent on cultural questionsns and foundations with the fear to be treated the way moynihan was treated so that a significantnd aspect was swept under the rug but he had had to do with race and history that now we know that is too simplistic because we see the same defects happening with those reasons in appalachia. But to make that mistake also that economics has nothing to do with that. That would also be a mistake but it is also a mistake to leave out the other factors you been stigmatized or call him racist he is a libertarian but in his recent work calling attention to the disparities between the wealthy and the black and white in a cultural basis of families and a the success that they have so those other sociologists that called attention to read this. Dont shoot the messenger with the message is right. So think about those legacieshe with a moral lapse of wall street and the Ivy League Institute so low those that cut across to go down or horizontal that come across the poor blacks or whites orla browns what we talk about cuts across every nook and cranny. Also needs to be printed out that with this moral collapse the spiritual context is by everybody budget material is by the most Vulnerable People are finally starting to call attention to the problem what murray says in his new booke is very often that you see now lower divorce rates among the educated and affluent going in the right direction so he says it is time for those elitesrt practicing those moreover choose workingclass them the poor people who are in the religious believers preaching and we need to practice what they preach and there is some truth to that we need to call on everybody to leave those kinds of lives with the spiritual value but also m material. Host from the book conscience and its enemies professor west rate slows to greatest institutions that enable them to win in in died dignity is the market economy and institution of marriage they stand or fall together. I certainly will would acknowledge the importance very much so but we have to examine much more closely what kind of market economy we are talking about or those marriages they are those with violence were so forth but certainly what is the quality of each one of those categories that is one sentence out of the text so letsco look at the market economy that can provide the requisite conditions for our fellow citizens with the kinds of marriages very of the patriarchal marriages of abuse no way a woman could live the live so that it is my First Response in particular. If you destroy you will destroy the other if you destroy both nobody will flourish i am not defending every form of market economy or every marriage. I already said government undermines the functioning of the market but the market does well but that increases quality borrowers prices with social mobility but when i say the market that is what w i mean and i want that culture that families function to transmit the virtues that children need to lead a successful allianceut to be contributing good its citizens. Call samesex marriage or a love that flows in which person of the same gender that brother robbies always many our dialogue been very cautious and very careful in saying as a christian, he still loves gay brothers and lesbian sisters made in the image of god. And so hes trying to stay in contact with their humanity even as he is critical of samesex marriage. Is that a fair characterization . Is. Guest yeah, absolutely. Guest and then the question becomes, and i push him on that because im very much one who supports love flowing in a variety of different forms even in this legalized, having legalized status when it comes to gay brothers and lesbian sisters or trans folk or whatever. And there we get theological in terms of what kinds of resources can i pull, can he pull and generate support for his argument, to generate support for my argument. And thats a serious matter because there are certain biblical passages that one can invoke that are highly critical of samesex marriage. Theres crystalcentric understandings of the biblical text in which you focus very much on jesus, why was jesus silent on the issue. If paul says x, paul says, slaves, be obedient to your masters, well, were not going to accept that. Paul says something about samesex marriages, we might accept that. Those are the kinds of dialogues that we have, and i think those are the kinds of dialogues that we need to have in the country that begin with the preciousness of each every one of us as human beings. And then move to various ways in which we disagree regarding the coming together in a marriage or coming together in a relationship or what have you. Guest yeah. The bedrock principle is that of the profound, inherent and equal dignity of the human being. Guest right. Guest thats it. To put it in religious terms, the idea of man made in the image and likeness of god. Now, in these areas of morality and family, my own argument, i suppose, would be typical for a catholic. Different for a protestant. Natural law. Not appeals to scripture. I do think that scripture can enlighten us guest thats true. [inaudible conversations] guest thats right. Its guest yeah, or im glad you correct me on on that. Yeah, absolutely. Guest that tens to be made more central tends to be made more central. But the fundamental issue for me, i mean, the great majority of cases youre going to have opposite sex relations, the critical thing for me is that those relationships be supported by a culture that will enable them not only to last, but to provide the milieu in which parents can transmit essential virtues that will enable their children to resist all the terrible temptations that can reduce them to narcissism, selfishness. Were living in the wake of this was our generation the me generation whose motto, whose slogan was if it feels good, do it. Well, a lot of young people of successor generations have taken that to heart. And its a very, very bad message. Now, how can we empower men and women to transmit to their children a different message and to inculcate it in them in a way that will enable them to resist the temptations to think that what really matters in life is me, me, me, me, me. Money, power, influence, wealth, social standing, status, respect, so forth. Guest i mean, the sad thing is that so many children in the last 30 years or so, reminds me of Phillip Larkins thing about how my parents messed me up, its the parents who have been narcissistic. Its the parents who have been indifferent, the parents who have been callous. And they passed that on to the Younger Generation. The Younger Generation has to find countervailing ways of being in the world over and against what their parents transmitted to them. Guest you know, when we moved in the direction of nofault divorce going all the bay all the way back to the 60s, decent people thought it would be good for the spouses because they could separate, and that would be that, and it would be less fuss and bother and less of the burden on the counts and on the public purse because the public purse supports the courts and so forth. And they even thought it would be good for children because its got to be bad for children living in conflict situations with their parents. But if you look at work thats done by sociologists today, people like the lapps and others work on the consequences of nofault divorce, you know, it has not been good for children. Children in most cases where theres not violence or abuse, even where theres a high degree of conflict do better with their parents sticking together. But what have we done to support marriages . Very little. What have we done to encourage parents to stick together . Very little. What have we done to provide cultural support for parents, to make it easier for them to sustain their a marriages . Really very little. Now, this is not a critique of government fundamentally because theres very little that government can do here other than get divorce policy right, get family law policy right. The real work has to be done by the institutions of Civil Society. Its got to be done by those nongovernmental institutions, what burke called the little platoons; family, extended family, church, other religious community, neighborhoods, civic groups, groups in which people of different ethnicities and faiths and so forth support each other. Thats where the real work in supporting marriage and the family has to be. Guest but if the government did help provide jobs with a living wage, quality housing, arts programs, music programs, sports programs that channel the energies of young people in such a way that was tied more to Public Interest rather than just privatistic orientation, that would be a way in which, like scandinavian countries, families could possibly be sites where children would flower and flourish. Guest you certainly need those things. Guest yes, yes. Guest now, whether government should be the provider guest not the sole, but can play a partnership and a role and a fundamental guest right. But the part of the way we do that is have taxation at a rate that will enable people to retain enough of their money to be able to provide things like Music Lessons and ballet lessons and religious education for their children, also to put parents in a situation where if they want to choose private, including religious youve been very good on this education theyre able to do that. The situation now, of course, is one in which people pay property taxes to support Public Schools even though they want to send their own kids to religious schools. Its increasingly expensive even in the old days when priests and nuns did most of the staffing. Well, the vocations crisis in the Catholic Church now means its more difficult to do that. The costs of education become higher and higher, its harder for parents to afford to send their kids to catholic schools. So i think government does have a role to play here, but often it is in facilitating rather than in actually providing the services and support thats needed. Id rather see Civil Society liberated to do that providing than to have government come in and try to do it directly. Host cornel west and Robert George are our bests. Heres a couple of their bookings. Cornel west east best selling race cornel wests best selling race matters. A new introduction. Democracy matters came out in 2004. His autobiography, brother west living out loud, came out in 2009. Black prophetic fire, 2014. Heres a couple of Robert Georges books including making men moral, 1995, the clash of orthodoxies which weve talked about today in 2001. Conscience and its enemies, 2013. And Conjugal Union what marriage is and why it matters. Weve done a little constitution on that today as well. Cornel west, if somebody wanted to buy one of your books, which one do you recommend to them . Guest i would tell them to buy James Baldwin [laughter] listen to some Curtis Mayfield and John Coltrane and nina simone. Theres so many other voices more important than mind. I would never promote my own text. But if they had a little extra time, i would say read race matters with the new introduction. Host Robert George, same question to you. Guest well, i suppose it would depend on a persons particular interests. If theyre interested in the deeper sorts of philosophical questions, then id recommend my bookmaking men moral Civil Liberties and public morality, which is the subtitle of that book. Thats the book on the basis of which i was given tenure at princeton, so its kind of a special book. It was my first book. Guest absolutely. Guest i reread it recently, and i still think im right about that. [laughter] much of the rest of the Academic Community thinks im wrong about it guest for 32 years. Guest found it interesting enough to award me tenure. If people are interested in contemporary issues, issues of marriage and sanctity of human life and all the kinds of things weve been talking about today, then perhaps my book conscience and its enemies which is my most recent book would be, be the one to look at. Ive also written with coauthors books on particular topics, so if people are interested in abortion and euthanasia, infanticide and those kind of issues, i have a book that ive written with the philosopher Christopher Tollefsen could embryo a defense of human life. And if people are interested in the marriage issue, i have a book that i wrote with two of my former students, a pair of brilliant young men, and that is what is marriage man and woman, a defense. Host eric is in lutherville, maryland. Hi, eric. Caller hi, how are you . I have a question host go ahead. Caller primarily for professor west, but also for the other professor as well. Im trying to understand [inaudible conversations] caller the last eight years of the obama presidency, and he painted a very Progressive Agenda when he was running as a candidate, never delivered on a large portion of that Progressive Agenda. And im wondering whether that was caused because the agenda i wasnt his real core beliefs, whether he lacked the courage to pursue those beliefs or when it was just the whether it was just the dynamics of the political era that were living in. Guest yeah, appreciate the question. I think one of the revealing moments of the Obama Administration was march 2009 when he met with leading wall street haze of firm heads of firms there, and they told him that they were wondering what he had to say. And he told them i stand between you and the pitchforks, but i rest assure you i am on your side, i will protect you, you have little to worry about. Thats a failure of nerve, thats a spinelessness, thats a lack of courage, that thats what you tell poor people, thats what you tell working people, thats what you tell black people. You dont tell wall street elites that i will protect you, i am on their side. Its no accident not one wall street executive went to jail given the massive crimes that were committed in terms of the predatory lending and inside trading, market manipulation and fraudulent activity. It was very clear youd have a wall streetfriendly, neoliberal Democratic Party in power, and the same was true in terms of his Foreign Policy. When he preserved his elites in the state department and in the pentagon so that the same folk tied to drone strikes, the brennans and others remained in power. When he brought in tim geithner from wall street, he brought in my dear brother larry summers. Smart as a tack but at the same time at that time tied to deregulating neoliberal policies. It was clear he had wall streetfriendly, drone presidency escalating and, therefore, a lot of the progressive rhetoric and that audacity of hope would become empty in regard to poor people and working people. Symbolically, he was masterful. What i mean symbolically, is to have a black face in the highest place in the American Society empire in government meant that not only had he made progress, which we had, but we had black people being empowered. We were in power for eight years, and you look around at poor people, look around the ghettos, look around the schools, look around at the massive unemployment and the massive incarceration, wow, who was in power for eight years . Theyre the ones who did very well, ask the folk in prison, ask the folk in the hoods whether they were in power. Not at all. There was a failure of nerve not just among barack obama, but among intellectuals, black intellectuals became cheer leaders for barack obama. The same folk would talk about Martin Luther king jr. As the extemplar of justice didnt want to talk about policy. The same people talked about Martin Luther king jr. As a thet example of justice didnt drone strikes that were dropping on babies in yemen and pakistan and so forth. The same folk even on the middle east. Want to talk about justice consistently, didnt say a mumbling word when 550 precious palestinian babies were killed in 50 days. Barack obama didnt say a mumbling word either. Why . Because he lacks courage. Hes spineless. He didnt want to tell the truth. Hes a politician. It was not in his interest to speak about that kind of suffering, you see. And so we ended up with another politician rather than a visionary leader. Now, was he a good politician . Absolutely. He got elected twice. Was he better than john mccain . Absolutely. Who was the other brother who ran . Mitt romney, absolutely. But did he fall short in terms of the standards of the martin kings and others . Absolutely. And not enough people told that truth. Guest ill let everyone in on a little secret. Big business does not consider Big Government to be its enemy. [laughter] guest thats true. Guest it loves the government. Guest exactly. Guest wall street loves Big Government. Now, upstart entrepreneur dont necessarily love Big Government. Small Business People dont necessarily love Big Government. Guest thats right. Guest but big business does because big business benefits. Ill tell you my own story. Obviously, it doesnt have to do with president obama, who i never met. But i was, i served during the Bush Administration as, the second bush, george w. Bush on the president s council on bioethics, and i was in the white house advising him on bioethical issues. We developed a good relationship, i have a lot of respect for him. He called me in, though, with two or three other professors right at the end, in his last week in office to talk about his memoir. He was already planning his memoir. So we were talking about his eight years, and right in the front of his mind was something that had just happened which was the bailout of the big banks. The big bailouts. And unprovoked by any of us, he just said as if talking to himself almost, he said, you know, i hated to do that. I hated to authorize that. Everything in me said, no, you dont bring government in to bail out businesses that have failed, that have failed because of their own practices. Thats not the role of government. Im a free market guy. And yet, he said, what what coui do . The leading people on wall street and the leading wall street representatives like snow in my administration are telling me that if we dont do this, it will be a 1929 stock market catastrophe. What could i do . I had to authorize the bailout. Wall street has tremendous influence in any administration, republican or democrat. They can be very promarket in theory, profree market in theory, but if wall street wants a big Government Intervention in the market, wall streets going to get it. They can be very progressive in theory, but if wall street wants something, wall streets going to get it. Its very hard to stand up against that. And in president bushs case, i mean, he did not want to be the president who presided over the next great depression, and he felt that his hands were tied on this, and he had no choice. Wall street got what it wanted. Free market guys were not in favor of those bailouts. My free market friends were scandalized by it. Yet wall street wanted it, wall street got it. Guest but the difference is president bush didnt put a figure, a representation of Martin Luther king jr. In the corner acting as if youre working on his project and based on his legacy. It was more consistent even with president bush as a conservative. If youre going to be someone coming out of the legacy of martin king, youre going to have to be courageous, sacrificial, serviceoriented for the week. If not, just tell the truth. Im a neoliberal, i might have a statue of him, but i dont have no plans of following through. Im not going to bail out main street, im not going to bail out the homeowners, im going to bail out wall street. Be honest. A lot of black people have been moderates. Whitney young was not Martin Luther king jr. , didnt run around acting like he was malcolm x. He was whitney young, he was a moderate, head of the urban league. Dont act like youre some kind of progressive and radical when youre really a moderate. That was partover of my part of my critique of barack obama. Dont use Martin Luther, he suffered too much, he paid the ultimate price. Quit manipulating his witness with neoliberal policies. If youre going to get in trouble, youre going to follow martin. If you want to be moderate and adjust to the status quo, follow whitney young. Just tell the people the truth, thats all. Thats like saying you show up at a concert acting like you al green, and then you start singing like a brown version of pat boone or something. [laughter] hey, tell people the truth, this is who i am. Quit lying about yourself. Thats the thing that upsets me. Not only that, but thats part of the best of the black tradition. Host robert, email. Facebook, twitter have become the new nonstate powers which have a huge impact on societies worldwide. They seem to accelerate polarization and disinformation. Guest theres some truth in that, and i cant contradict can it. Now, now, i also spoke earlier about my worries about monopoly and oligopoly and especially when it comes to free speech issues, these type of firms and platforms. But i think that people who care about the quality of our civic discourse can use those platforms to counteract the bad things that this gentleman rightly points to. I, in my own work, use facebook as a kind of ongoing seminar. I have serious discussions with facebook friends of source issues. I call to the attention of my friends things that i think are worth reading. When i say my friends, these are mostly people ive never met in my life, but theyre people with whom ive developed relationships online because theyre interested in the kinds of moral and political, civic, religious issues that im interested in. So my advice to the gentleman is lets make the most of facebook. Its not going to go away. Facebook and twitter are going to be here. Were not going to get rid of them. Now, there may be some steps that we can, that we can take to make them behave a little bit better than they are behaving, but we ourselves in using those assets can use them to counteract the bad things and to advance things that would improve the quality of our civic life. Host absolutely. I mean, you think, for example, the great reverend William Barber ii whos reviving the Poor Peoples Campaign right now. When he uses this new technology, its a way of reaching out across and race, class, jenner, Sexual Orientation to bring people together. Thats different than the neonazis who we were staring down in charlottesville just a few months ago. We use the same technology to bring together the fascists and others to try to bring some kind of contemptuous attitudes toward blacks and j everything ws and muslims and gays and he lesbians and others and catholics. Even david duke is catholic in the klan. Get a catholic head of the ku klux klan, my god. Someday youre going to have a negro head. I did see a black person who marched in charlottesville. Guest s with nazis . Guest s with nazis. Theres confusion everywhere. Very much so. But generally speaking, it reflects who we are as persons. The bastardization, the division and so forth. Thats what we bring to the technology. We havent undergone [inaudible] guest yeah, thats exactly right. Host suprea is in edgewater, new jersey. Please go ahead with your question or comment. Caller hi, thanks so much. Its been great listening to both of you. Im really, i feel more than just informed by this conversation and educated, but i feel my heart is healed a little bit, and so i want to echo the calls from others to figure out a way, there is a way. And i know, professor george, i think youd been kind of wrangling this issue of bringing your seminar to the public, etc. But there is a way, and much more Creative Minds than i can figure it out. But weve got to get you on television, and weve got to get this out because i think the way that you both go about having these discussions, disagreeing with even other and the with each other and the obvious affection you have for each other is really important. So having said that, let me get to my question which is going back to a framework that you brought up earlier. You were discussing earlier for how the sort of American Experience or experiment works with the three sort of elements, right . We have the free markets, we have the foundation of virtuousty, and we have, sorry, a second pillar of democracy. I guess my question is how in the world, where do we begin when i think whats become so obvious to so many of us in the last year, we have some really deep problems in all three of those areas . You know . Ive been spending the last year trying to figure out where to focus my attention, and im one person of millions whos doing the same exact thing. Question is where do we begin . Is there a chicken or egg kind of situation here . Are there things that we can be doing host thank you for your time today. Lets hear from the professors. Who wants to start this time. Guest well, thank you very much not only for your kind comment, but for your very thoughtful question. And its the right question. Ive wrestled with it myself. Heres the best i can do. I thinkal of us can do i think all of us can do a service to all of the rest of us by reaching out to people whom we know have a very different perspective on basic issues than we have. So if youre not a trump person and especially if youre someone highly critical of trump or someone whos afraid of trump, get to know a trump voter. Get to know them not just to lecture them, not just to harangue them, but to try to understand where theyre coming from. I think that would be a service. If youre a trump person, if youre a trump voter and you think that trump is the tribune of the people to stand up against these horrible elites, get to know one of those horrible elites, you know . Reach out in a personal way. And just listen. One of the things we need to do, one of the things with brother cornel i love listening to this guy. Its easy to listen. And listening is where i think sending a signal across the ideological or partisan divide that im willing to listen is the necessary first step. And were badly divided in this country, were deeply, deeply polarized. Its not the first time this has happened. Go back to the election of 1800, the civil war, look at the division over slavery. But its still even considered existence that historical backdrop, this is a period of deep polarization, animosity, resentment, americans resenting other americans, americans thinking of other americans as villains. Large number, 62 million as villains with the other side thinking the first 62 million are villains. If this precious experiment in republican government and liberty is going to survive, were going to have to get past this, and it begins with talking with each other. And you cant talk to someone else unless you signal to that person a willingness to listen. So lets begin there, seems to me. Guest absolutely. I think one begins with ones self because one, on one hand, has been shaped by traditions in the past. We critically appropriate the best, we hold at arms length the worst. But also you attempt to exemplify in your thoughts, in your actions, in your organizations, in your networks the kind of truthtelling, witnessbearing but also more than that. And this relates to [inaudible] music again. Robbie and i grew up in a time in which you had tenderness and and sweetness and kindness shot through your music. You had groups that could sing not just in tune, but touch the soul at deepest level. They werent just titillating the body. These days the music titillates the body in order to make money as opposed to shaping the souls, in order to make persons stronger, to make persons spiritually equipped and ready to take on the world. Curtis mayfield didnt sing just to make money. He quipped people of all colors to deal with the crisis and catastrophes with smile, style, humor. Thats whats missing. We need all of that in our own lives. We need that in movements, in leftwing movements, centrist movements. Where is the humor that allows us to laugh at ourselves such that we can grow and thereby be better relative to who we are . Because some people are going to be who they are. Everybodys not going to agree with you. But you can touch them, you can unsettle them. But if they shut down before you even get a chance to touch an unsettled, then were even more divided in that way, you see . Robbie and i, we brothers for life. And were going to fight, were going to struggle and so forth and so on, you see . But at that human level, thats just the way it is. No matter how unpopular we become or whatever. It aint about unpopularity, its about the type of humans we choose to be before the worms get our body. Thats the kind of people we come from. Thats not just this country, thats just every other country. America has no monopoly on integrity. They got it in list lithuania, s in turkey, the jews got it in tel aviv if they are willing to be courageous. Youve got the same cowardice in each place. Most of Human History is a history of domination and hatred. Thats what it is. All were trying to do is interrupt it. Were trying to disrupt it. Guest you know, when youre talking Curtis Mayfield, im thinking hank williams. Guest oh, that country musics soulful to the core. Different kind of twang, different kind of rhythm but very similar story. Bob marley imitating in jamaica with his genius. Guest you know, one of the things we tend to do, suprea, is we try to signal things to each other, especially others in a group that were already comfortable in to make clear that were in the in group, were on your side. We say things, especially saying things about other people with different beliefs that are meant to strengthen our bond with people in our tribe. Well, i think we need to be willing a little bit to be the gadfly in the tribe, do it whats been done so well on the Progressive Side. Question some of these established orthodoxies. Dont worry so much about signaling that im an insider and im on the part of the in crowd. Be a little willing to take the risk of being an outcast. And if youre made an outcast, thats something that were going to have to, were going to have to live with. Its much better to have integrity. Its much better to try to do something to reform a situation badly in need of reform than to just live with the comfort of being in the in crowd by saying what other people want to hear. Host have you ever been criticized for your friendship with cornel west and vice versa . Guest very rarely, in my case. One of the i have to hand it to my conservative friends, very rarely has i think the one exception would be on issues having to do with israel where cornel has been perceived by some conservatives as going over the line. Too harshly critical of israel. Now, i know in my heart there is not anything antisemitic about cornel west. Hes got a heart for the Palestinian People and their suffering. He wants to see justice done. We would have some disagreements about guest sure. Guest israeli policy. But no government, and i want all my friends who share my support for israel to to understand, theres no government that should be immune from criticism. Theres no government that doesnt make mistakes. The Israeli Government has made mistakes. The netanyahu government has a made mistakes, has done things that are wrong. Nobody is perfect. So those create kim criticisms are perfectly legitimate. Now, there are people who go over the line who use criticism of the Israeli Government and the state of israel as a pretext for expressing antisemitism. There are people who would like to see israel disappear from the face of the earth. I believe its still in the palestinian charter, isnt it, cornel [inaudible conversations] cease to exist. So i think thats caused the sensitivities in some circles that have led people to say how can you, robbie george, strong supporter of israel and the jewish people, associate with cornel west. Now, people who know me also know that i have been one of the leading voices, i think its fair to say and you can correct me if im wrong, cornel, on the christian and conservative side in the defending the rights of muslims. Guest thats true. Guest i made that a big part of my work guest i was on the commission. Guest u. S. Commission on International Guest we had many joint statements supporting muslim brothers and sisters. Probably does that on the local level, the Muslim Leaders in guest so i think we need to avoid tribalism of any sort here. But apart from that, im really proud of my conservative friends who really have seen value in the work that cornel and i do. They have Great Respect for this man, by the way. Great respect for him. Host have you been criticized for your friendship . Guest sure. You know, the left tend to be a bit more vociferous than the rightwing brothers. A number of them say we understand why you spend time, his stance on samesex marriage, we wrestle on abortion issues, we wrestle on instances of extended regulation and so forth. And i just tell them i say, one, you dont understand who he is as a human being. You have a stereotype of him. You understand a conservative and then think that somehow by some law you can grasp his complexity because he calls himself a conservative. Every conservative in a stereotypical sense is in no way a human being who is conservative and has a variety of different complexities, orientations that dont conform to the stereotype. I just tell them up front youve never met brother. Why dont you come to dinner with us, come to lunch with us, have a drink with us, have a coffee well, he doesnt drink much, but i have my cognacs. [laughter] and thats the same thing he tells them. Well, brother west says if theres a palestinian occupation of jewish brothers and sisters, he would be saying the exact same thing against palestinian occupation. Its a consistent and moral and spiritual issue. Palestinian baby has the same value as a jewish baby, and vice versa. Innocence and humanity on both sides. How do we proceed . We can disagree on tactics and strategy. Weve got to make sure our spiritual and moral foundations are in place. So it is with brother robbie. Brother robbie and i, we went to dallas with brother flowers, terry flowers guest thats exactly right. Guest precious young people there and his engagement not just at the personal, spiritual level, but also in terms of the framework that he provided in terms of [inaudible] thats empowering to them. Hes the only vanilla brother in the room. But the Human Connection is made. Flowers is Visionary Leadership flowers visionary guest absolutely fantastic. I need to tell your viewers. Dr. And mrs. Flowers, they have no public funding whatsoever. They take children of prostitutes, drug addicts, kids who you think are lost, they have no future, theyre going to end up in jail, theyre going to end up in trouble. They take these kids, and they give them a first class education. I dont even know how they do it, cornel guest well, they do it out of love. Guest i know why they do it. How they pull this off. And the kids go to notre dame, stanford guest youve got a genius like erica bahdu, youve got a variety of kids there and yet that love is there. And harlem crowe, actually, has made a contribution. Guest he has, indeed. Host who is he . He has come up several times. [inaudible conversations] guest down in dallas, very generous donor to many, many good causes including the school that the flowers run for black kids in dallas. Its wonderful to see the kids are there in their school uniforms, and theyre being taught not only classroom skills, but just the human skills guest thats right. Guest the rules of finish. Guest selfrespect. Yeah. Guest congeniality, how youre sensitive to other peoples needs. All those things that go into the making of any human being of integrity. Guest at the end of the day, this is a retail operation, isnt it . Soul craft is a retail operation. You know, its working with individual kids. Its somebody, a parent, a teacher, a coach, a grandparent, a pastor working with individual kids. Host i just got a message from my producer. It says you can just go home, its cool. They got this. [laughter] i think youre right. [laughter] jim, pine ridge, south dakota, youre on with cornel west and Robert George. Caller good morning, gentlemen. I have a question to both of you. Host hey, jim, youve got to turn down the volume on your tv. Theres a little bit of a delay. Why dont you go ahead, hit the volume and just go ahead and state your question. We can hear you. Caller my question to both professors is, what are your thoughts about rewriting the u. S. Constitution to make it truly more equal for all peoples . Thank you. Host thank you, jim, very much. The u. S. Constitution. Guest i rather like the one we have. Now, i do think that from time to time reconsidering elements of the constitution its important. The constitution provides methods for its own amendment, so it contemplates the possibility of improvements being made. But i think the fundamental structure of the constitution is a work of extraordinary genius, and we would, wed be making a bad mistake if we threw over things like the separation of powers, the concept of the National Government is a government of delegated and enumerated and, therefore, limited powers, and the states as governments of general jurisdiction exercising plenary authority, federalism. There are, i think, crucial dimensions of our bill of rights that i wouldnt want to see touched. Now jefferson, Thomas Jefferson believed that the dead hand of the past should not control the living. So he wanted to have a new Constitutional Convention every 20 years. His sense of what a generation would be. I dont think that would be a good idea. The founders with this constitution have given us a way of preserving something that was, before that time, impossible to preserve which is republican government. Government not only of the people, which all government is and not only for the people, which all government is but this rare thing, government by the people. Our problems have not come from our constitution or from our excess of fidelity to constitutional principles. Our problems, whether its racism, no matter what it is, have been a lack of fidelity to our constitutional principles. Had we honored the declarations principle that all men are created equal, we would have done away with slavery from the very beginning. We wouldnt have had jim crow. We wouldnt have had segregation. The problem wasnt the principle, it was our failure to live up to the principle. The same is true with the separation of powers. The same is true in so many other areas. An area that im concerned about is the seepage of legislative authority off to the executive branch and the agencies on the one side and off to the courts on the other side. Congress does everything but legislate. And take responsibility and be accountable for legislation. Were governed not by our elected representatives. Were not govern by ourselves through our elected representatives, were governed by people weve never heard of in bureaucratic agencies, and were governed by courts on crucial issuings. So i want to see fidelity. I want to come back to the constitutional principles we have. We dont need new ones, we need greater fidelity to the ones we have. Guest theres a wonderful book i just read called in the shadows of the american centuries written by a brother named alfred mccoy, and he makes the point that to live in an empire in which the executive branch eclipses the others in terms of its ability to engage in per progresstive per oggtive ability, its a presidency that goes hand in hand with an imperial america. We got, what, 587 bases in 42 countries and 140 special operation activities around the world, you see. So we are, in that sense, a kind of empire in a very real way. And the question becomes can government by the people, for the people and of the people survive in the face of an empire with military overreach, corruption of elites, a culture driven by market sensibilities unconcerned about the centrality of public life, common good and a rule of law that can be undercut by big money . Now, thats a serious situation, and i think it requires more than just a rewriting of a constitution, it has to do with the kind of people we are. The marvelous constitution that we had was still a proslavery document for over 80 years. The marvelous constitution after the 1880s was still very much a promonopoly, capitalist constitution and with poor people, gaining collective bargaining, the 1930s, it took that long. Argentina had it in the 1830s. And argentinas not known to be on the cutting edge of social justice. They were 100 years ahead of us. Women voted, when, 1919, 1920. So the same constitution with persons who are not prepared to fight for working and poor people can be used on behalf of the wealthy or on behalf of everyday people. Would you accept that, brother . Guest parts of it. Guest probably parts of it. [laughter] guest our military as an imperial guest well, weve been an empire, though, since guest well, you know, we, men like my father, joseph george, my fatherinlaw, irving, marched over to germany, and they defeated hitler, and they came home. Guest that was grand heroics. Guest and they didnt occupy. They werent like the roman legions, they werent like caesar. They defeated the nazi tyranny, and they came home, and they handed to the german people a democracy. They handed to the japanese people a democracy. So i think that the pictures complicated guest yeah, yeah. Guest and i do think we need to be respectful to our military. I think we need to be respectful to our veterans. Guest yes. Guest you know, a lot are feeling disrespected these days guest right, right, right. Guest and thats not good. I think all of us as americans should acknowledge whatever mistakes we have made guest but theyre following the rulers, and theyre the courageous ones willing to put their lives on the line, but its the rulers who too often dont have the kind of vision required relative to the courage of the ordinary soldiers in the country. Guest sure. Yep. Host lets hear from hassan in caramel valley, california. Caller hello, good morning, its an honor to be on your program. Mr. West put it best, if we didnt have cspan, im not sure what would have happened to us. I see that during the whole talk you two gentlemen are talking about truthtelling and the role of the family. My question is what kind of parents would you suggest you would be or your neighbors or your friends would be when they talk to their kids about sources, the main sources of the human problems right now; isis and the force of religion in our culture in this country . Isis, actually, when they chop off a reporters head or someone they arrest, believe it or not they call it [speaking in native tongue] they call it the abraham tradition. So, see, their hero is mr. Abraham that is revered by muslims and jews and christians. So if we introduce this man as a hero to our kids, then of course we will have people like isis, of course we will have failed states like iran, pakistan, israel, sudan, afghanistan. All these countries are failed institutions, failed states. And i guess, please, bear with me because you encourage your viewers to talk about the truth. So this is my version of the truth, that we have to face the fact that these failed institutions judaism and islam are failed institutions and host all right. Hassan, i think we got your point. Were almost off the time. Gentlemen, we have three minutes for that question. Guest i think we need to be very truthful with our children about all things. And when it comes to religion, the truth is that some of the greatest, most heroic, most generous things that have ever been done have been done on the basis of religious motivation and in the name of god. But the other side is some of the most dastardly, horrible things that have been done have been done on religious motives and in the name of god. Isis does act in the name of god, and as far as we can tell, that is sincere. Its horrible, its unjust, but these people, religious fanatics sincerely believe theyre doing what god wants. So theres no guarantee of justice just because youre doing it on religious motivations. Now, the rest of the truth is some of the most horrific deeds ever done in Human History have been done on a secularist motivation. The great tyranny of the 20th centuries that are responsible for the highest death tolls of any regimes in Human History were a validly secularist regimes; the nazis and the communists. So i dont think its fruitful to try to draw up a grand Balance Sheet and say on the whole religion is good or on the whole religion is bad, but to recognize that good things can be done in the name of religion and bad things can be done in the name of religion. Lets try to do good things and avoid bad things. When it comes to what i think we should all agree is the best in religion, the idea of the dignity of the human person, jews and christians understand the person made in the image and likeness of god, others may have a different way of articulating that dignity, but when we focus on religions teaching on all human beings have dignity and worth and are not reducible to the status of ants or rats, then we will do good things, then we will honor people, then we will practice virtue. Guest i think were just talking about the history of the species. Edward wilson at the end of his career he talked about what do we need, evolutionary theorist, we need something to push back our egotism, our tribalism, we need universal visions in which people can be brought together focusing on the most vulnerable. Well, thats what is the best in both religious and secular tradition. Most of Human History is a history of mendacity, criminality, hatred, envy, contempt, domination, exploitation. How do we disrupt it . And you only disrupt it by keeping alive traditions of love, of love of truth, beauty, goodness and enacting that love with the body, mind, soul, group, network, organization and democracy is one of these very difficult efforts to fuse truth and goodness and beauty so it might disrupt the longer Human History of domination. But we know imperial democracies have their own form of domination, so theyre incomplete, theyre unfinished. In the end, youve got one life to live biographically, what are you going to do in relation to your own love of truth and good theness and beauty and how it be connected, how will it be connected to others involved guest can i Say Something to parents based on my now 33 years of teaching at princeton . And that is this, parents, please, care as much care more about the integrity of your children, care more about their character, care more about who they are as human beings guest absolutely. Guest than you do about whether they get into williams or yale or princeton or ohio state or wherever it is and go on to Harvard Law School or go on to Goldman Sachs or Something Like that. Were right, as parents, to care about the professional futures and the material futures of our children. Were right to encourage them to aspear to be person aspire to be persons of high standing and make good incomes. Thats very important, im not denigrating that. But whats more important than that is character and integrity, and thats where your real focus as parents needs to be. Guest absolutely. Host Robert George of princeton, cornel west of harvard, thank you for being on booktv. Guest pleasure, thank you. Guest thank you. Its always a blessing. This brother here, indeed, indeed, indeed. Thank you so much