Cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Host we would like to welcome a new face to the communicators, congressman jerry mcnerney, a democrat from california. Hes a member of the energy and Commerce Committee as well as cochair of the Artificial Intelligence caucus. Welcome to the communicators and thanks for being here. Guest a pleasure to be here. Host i want to start with an issue thats in the news this week, and thats the state attorneys general investigating google especially for antitrust. Whats your take on that . Guest what are the important factors is the California Attorney general is not one of the 48. Only two states declined in california is one of them. I have had a conversation with the attorney general about it, but google is a californiabased company. If you want to look at how its doing its business practices, its important to do it in a very thoughtful way. I know the department of justice and the federal trade commission are also talking about doing investigations of anticompetitive practices of these companies. Its good to look at this and investigated and make sure the companies are behaving. Im not sure breaking companies up is a good idea. These are Big Companies with a lot of tentacles, a lot of employees, and if you break a company like that up, managed to do it, though the unintended consequences, for example, whats going to happen to the data that these companies owned . How are you going to parse that out . How many people would be displaced . Will have an effect on the overall economy . Regulatory approaches might be better than antitrust, in my opinion. Host does your district in california have a tech presence . Guest there is a tech presence. Basically, i do want to say where a suburb of Silicon Valley that we are affected by Silicon Valley. Maybe about 40,000 people from my district commute over to the bay area for the jobs. Not all of those protect but quite a few are. Its a long, hard slog so i dont envy the people have to do that. I have to go back and forth to washington but there is a number of people who work in the tech sector who live in my district. Host joining our conversation today is john hendel of political. Thanks for having me. Given some of the antitrust talk, thats become part of the 2020 campaign. Elizabeth warren talked about breaking up the companies more proactively, made that a big part of her platform. Do you think that something the candidate should be more careful about . It sounds like there were reluctant to go forth with the message breaking of the companies. How do you do that now . Guest it may be a popular issue to talk about, but if you look at the details of what its going to take and whos going to be affected by it, its important to look at all possible ways to manage these companies. They clearly have run off the rails in some instances. Ill be glad to talk about those with you, but it might be better to look at how to contain those with regulation than with actually breaking the companies up. The talk should be a little more moderated in that area. One issue you did lead on this summer was issue of deep fakes which are digital forgeries, and that came up when there was a rudimentary version of that made at Speaker Pelosi in a, slowed down her words, made her look intoxicated when fact she was in. Thats something you wrote a letter about to facebook in late june as i recall. What have you been hearing from the Company Since then and how concerned are you about this issue deep fakes ahead of the 2020 election . These are entirely digitally forged is that make people look and say things that not that at all. It created quite a stir in recent months but what have you been in from facebook given they were front and center in the conversation around Speaker Pelosi in the deep fakes . Guest there is an important distinction between deep fakes where you continually fabricate statements or views and what happened on the altered video. They might have the same effect. If they are used to alter the electric for an election i think thats a very dangerous. We need to be careful about that. We were made aware that facebook was monetizing that video, and so that is what set me off. You wait to see videos like that become a viable because you never know what the final impact is going to be. I initiated a letter to facebook, to Mark Zuckerberg in particular, had almost all the democrats on the committee signed that letter, and they were willing to do so, including the chairman. The letter was received, and when we got back a a response m facebook it was just a very simple, sort of terse letter, really didnt give me any comfort after taking the steps they need to take to protect our election from false information, from extremist viewpoint. Host . Have they filed up in any way was up in the crux of the response . I know that a recent announcement referring to 100 Million Investment there trying to make, part of the deep fake protection competition which i did know if there was anything else to assure you recently or that remains a strong concern going into next year and the election . Guest thank you. They havent really satisfied my concerns at this point, and id like to see them answer in a way that gives me comfort they are doing something. They havent committed the resources that are needed to do this. Host congressman mcnerney, you mentioned that were sometimes when the Tech Companies have brought off the rails. If you could cite an example of that that concerns you, along with what john was talking about with deep fakes, but also is there a role for congress and some type of legislation if youre hesitant to see the antitrust group and go forward . Guest there is. They Cambridge Analytica comes to mind immediately, but just the way they been using data. They had been willing to sell it, and im not at all comfortable that theyre taking the care they need to of data. American people are concerned. They feel like theyre losing control of their data who is using it . What are the using it for . Is going to affect their Health Records . Is a going to try, are they going to try to use that to sway them in a political manner . These are things americans rightly concerned about and weve seen case after case where these data is not being taken care of in a way thats needed. For example, i think facebook takes a lot of data that doesnt really need. We should have a requirement, maybe a legislative requirement on privacy that requires data minimization. If you dont need daily, dont take it, dont store it. And also data security. Are we going to require them to use encryption or other sorts of very strong methods to protect data once they have . Those were a couple of things we could do on legislation. How far along are the conversations regarding data privacy legislation . At the beginning of your people. Out one of the unifying topics that could Bring Congress together, clearly theres been lots of conversation in the senate and house that we are now approaching middle of september and are still hasnt been any bigger proposal put forth by either congress committee. Is that something that concerns you or what you think the reason for that is, and what have you been seeing behind the scenes . Guest what i forgot to say when we first started, these are issues that are complicated and often have a nuanced and they have both sides of a story. With regard to privacy, yes, the Consumer Protection subcommittee is working on legislation. My focus has been on the areas i mentioned, data minimization and data security. But the subcommittee is moving vote on developing specific legislation. Were getting closer and closer to californias own rules going into effect. Is that something you are pretty open to . Do you think a federal bill should go into effect before that . How did the california delegation balance that . You see a lot of people in industry and especially some republican lawmakers saying we need a federal bill so we can put that in place before californias rules go into effect. How have you viewed that process back in your home state of california . Guest im proud of being from a state that put together a very strong Consumer Protection on privacy. Of course the follows the european gdpr bill, but the bill is strong, the California Law is strong. Im looking for to see it go into effect. I think theres been concerns one way or another, but the federal level i think we need something thats very, very strong. One of the concerns is, are we going to have a federal bill that preempts or is california going to have its own bill . I think it really remains to be seen how the issue gets worked out. I wouldnt be able to go home to my constituents and said say id for a federal preemption that weakens our own, your own protections, so there will have to be some negotiation on this. Host do you hear from your constituent on these issues . Guest i certainly do. This issue i hear considerable amount and elsewhere a lot about on Net Neutrality. Host and what do you hear from them . Guest the folks want Net Neutrality protection. Of course the big throttling, blocking, paid prioritization, those things are pretty clear. We need to protect consumers from those, and right now the federal fumigation commission is basically abdicated any authority. So the companies are free to do whatever they want and thats going to lead to problems. I dont know how long it will be before problems start cropping up but they will. The house, we passed a pretty strong Net Neutrality act this year. Its not going anywhere in the senate. I think thats a problem for my republican colleagues, is that americans want Net Neutrality protections and i think the republicans need to step up and move this forward. Do you think that would be d next year . Icing virtue all the major candidates also did with exception of joe biden referred to Net Neutrality into platforms. How to take voters see that issue . Guest it is an animating force. Theres a subset of my constituents or of any district constituents that feel very, very strongly about this. This will be a single issue for a lot of those folks and i think rightfully so. They need to know information is not being blocked, that something one of the Big Companies doesnt want to see out there is blocked for some reason, or throttle. This is an issue with a small subset of my electric electorate but i want to serve all of my district not just thie subset of that upset. And if i dont take their issues into consideration and im not doing my job. Host congressman mcnerney, do you hear from your constituent on the issue of robocalls . Guest i certainly do. Thats an issue thats driving people crazy. We were having a hearing and people on the committee were getting robocalls as we had hearings. Its an issue that has technical solutions. Not only that but its an issue that has bipartisan support, and the house passed a bill, the Senate Passed the bill and senate conference. Host you talk about theres a technical solution, but is there a First Amendment issue at play here as well . Guest i really dont know how to answer that one. Its just that if we allow robocalls to continue, you know whats going to happen. People get call after call and they stop answering the phone. Cell phones become obsolete. We have to do something to protect that Critical Infrastructure of hours. It sounds like you see that as a potential legislative victory that could come together in the months ahead. Are there any others you would point to . There was a hearing recently almost three hours about bipartisan frustration with the state of data at the fcc right now. Is that something you see, together in the next few months in a bigger legislatively . Guest i do. Absolutely. I do. We considered several pieces of legislation. All of those may be at least all but one were bipartisan. They had a cosponsor on either side of the aisle. Theres a a clear need for betr maps. The maps we have out there, theres a lot of holes in them. They are not accurate. The granularity for the resolution in my terminology, latency. These are issues that need to be improved and its widely accepted. The technology is out there. A couple of witnesses were very clear that we can move forward on this. We tried it in virginia, tried it in misery. Were very successful. So i think we can move forward with our legislation to make sure that happened in missouri. The fcc takes is over and makes it happen on a national scale. Isnt any concern about a broader congressional slowdowns on productivity . Once you get closer to the election it becomes much harder to do things and that forces hybridization in terms of jumping in. How much is that going to be a factor do you think in the next few months . Guest i think we have the government funding and all is an issue, but beyond that there is these to make issues that we talked about, robocalls, broadband mapping. Theres a number of issues like that that theres a a good bipartisan will to move forward. Host do you see any legislative action in the next two or three months in congress . Guest i personally love to see some action in infrastructure, and the lift america act is an excellent example. When we find the will and the way to do that and build out our broadband infrastructure, but we need to have the maps for so we know where the weaknesses are and then we can Start Building up. And then of course following that we have, whether the broadband is widely adopted or not. We have a number on that particular infrastructure issue. I think theres a couple of milestones that we need to keep in mind. Host have you been briefed yet on jim watkins, the founder of 8chan when he was in Congress Testifying in a closely, have you been briefed on that as yet . Guest no, i havent. Its an area of concern. If theres websites out there people are using to incite violence or hatred, then we need to look at ways to control that. Those things are protected to a certain degree by free speech, but you cant go into a theater and yell fire. Has to be some guardrails, but the real crux of this is how do we keep that from being viral . How do we keep those hateful and violence inciting messages from going to wider public that will actually cause action that would be harmful . Host does your background as a mathematician inform your views or spark your interest in these issues . Guest it certainly does. I love math and science, and being able to work in congress on tech issues is really a pleasure for me. Its almost like im not at work, im actually having fun out there doing something i really enjoy. Youve been able to step up as cochair of the Artificial Intelligence caucus, the wifi caucus. How do you approach some issues like that, especially with ai . What should the government be doing on ai and other specific steps that maybe youre not happening that you think should . Guest speaking of ai, when pete olson, the other cochair, asked me to be as cochair this term, boy, i opened the of the books and started studying. Its a fascinating area. But the purpose of the caucus in my mind is to put information out there are colleagues can understand what ai means. Is it scary as it might sound . Is it going to create jobs . Is a going to transform society in some way . We need to use the caucus to inform other members of congress and staff, and thats what we have tried to do. Weve had forums and summits get people together. When we have a forum, maybe a few ai experts, the rooms are crowded. There standing room only. So people are interested. Ai has tremendous potential to transform society in a positive way. It can make our city safer, can make our streets a lot safer for driving, can reduce congestion, and helping agriculture, certainly in healthcare. Theres a lot of areas that can be helpful in. We also have some concerns. Is it going to be, can we put standards that prevent the bias problems that might occur with ai . Are we going to allow ai to biased financial records are healthcare records in a way that might be harmful to people . We need to establish standards for that. Is it going to be an important part of our National Security or National Defense . What about the employment issue . Are we going to be able to use ai to create jobs . And you think well, ai is going to eliminate jobs but thats not really whats going to happen. Most any job this summer has had several components, and so its a tapestry. You want to find the components that are going to work with ai and the components that are going to replace that. Put those together in a way that makes people more productive and doesnt eliminate jobs. Host how have we use ai already today . Just in a daytoday basis, and where d. C. Ai going in the next five to ten years . Guest i think healthcare is most obvious. You can have ai trained to look at xrays, radiography, and the be as accurate or more accurate than radiologist. Thats an important application. We are getting closer and closer to self driving cars. Thats a lot of Artificial Intelligence that goes into those, training those circuits to know how to react to different stimuli. I dont know it will ever be perfect we could easily be better than humans. I dont know when thats going to happen but its not too far off. Those are a couple ways, in terms of traffic patterns how we can use Artificial Intelligence to make our cities less congested. Theres a lot of opportunity out there and its going to be coming down the line pretty quickly. Host what do you think its the best role for washington when it comes to the development and implementation of Artificial Intelligence . Guest you may know this but i proposed an ai government act. And basically what it does will create a center of excellence within the gsa for ai, and that means it will have experts, they will have the resources and the computers and the training methods. Also to help other agencies within the United States government to adopt ai in a positive way and to fill employment roles. Ai is very hard to hire people in the government because, outside you can make more money. Lets put it that way. So how can we tell the government posts with these important positions . Thats the first step i think. I would like to see a little better understanding of how government, what governments role should be in assuring ai doesnt displace more jobs than it creates. That something im going to go working on personally with the caucus over the next few months. And we mentioned 8chan and jim watkins before. In the senate now they are also bring in like some of the major Tech Companies like facebook and google and twitter to talk about these recent mass shooting, the role of the companies there. Do you hope to see anything so an ounce and what degree should some of those other bigger social media giant be a a partf that conversation . That was interesting to see chairman wicker in the senate who is bring in those companies i believe next week. Guest it is next week and its important to get the Big Companies out there and let them know im the one hand that we are interested and were watching them and were going to hold them accountable if they dont do things right by their customers and by the american people. Theres been a bigger debate in washington around the Liability Protections these companies have. Section 230 of these medications decency act. Theres been lots of different interest popping up saying that might be a need for carveouts in a variety of ways. Some people bring up bias, opioids, shortterm Vacation Rentals even. Theres the bill in congress this month the suggests that should be a carveout to make sure shortterm Vacation Rental platforms like airbnb cant. 2 other reLiability Protections to get around state and local protection. Are you concerned about that in any way . Theres been people think these carveouts are not Something Congress should be doing. There was an initial one for fighting sex trafficking. Whats your take on that . Guest like a lot of these issues, its complex and theres lots of nuance and there are different sides that due to be taken into consideration. Section 230 has been incredibly important for the development of tech, and so i think if we move forward we need to move forward cautiously. What i would like to see israel open conversation, a couple of hearings, some summits with experts, and get a good idea of what would work and what would not work. Im very cautious about moving forward with carveouts that might have unintended consequences. Yeah, lets talk about this, lets be open about it and have a conversation about it and make sure we understand what were getting into before we start monkeying around the current law. Host congressman mcnerney, would you own a huawei phone . Guest absolutely not. Host why . Guest the thing about huawei and 5g, theyre all connected, while what is the cheapest stuff out there but its not secure. When you introduce a nonsecured element into wifi, for example, you put the whole system at risk. I have a lot of concerned about huawei, about what relationship it has with the government of china, what is in that hardware and software. We may need to look at having a federal ban on using huawei in federal security or federal applications. We may have to actually put federal money together to Smaller Networks who cant afford to replace these inexpensive devices so that we have a more secure network. Host every caucus and weve asked the question of has given the same answer. Does it concern you when you see our allies working with huawei, like germany, et cetera . Guest it does concern me. And again its the same thing. They got to the market with the cheapest product first and i think hats off to china for that, but they dont run by the same rules that we do. When you have equipment like that that is suspect, it puts the whole system at risk. I think our european friends are going to find out hard way that this is the problem. You mentioned algorithms and some of the concerns there before. How has that been coming up in the last year specifically what comes to bias and concerns there . You brought this up in some congressional hearings. How much has have become an issue in tech policy and should there be any actions taken to address that . It is another one of those complicated, delicate issues you mentioned. Guest . It sure is. What are the best protections is having a diverse workforce. Thats something we need to work on. If you look at Silicon Valley, theres some diversity but its not the diversity we need. I think thats an important first step. Algorithms are a little different than david. The data obviously can be biased if you take it for certain region or certain demographic group. The data can be badly biased tipping on how you use it. But algorithms i think are a little bit more nuanced in how we set standards, or is or some sort of a testing procedure . Are we going to get these are important issues and i think i get excited just thinking about how to work with nist on developing standards for algorithms. But we are certainly not there yet what you think President Trump means when he tweets about the bias of these Tech Companies works thats another thing we seen from different ways were President Trump and others will very loudly talk about google and facebook and twitter and what he sees as different kind of bias, ideological decisionmaking, choices of these companies. What does that represent in terms of this broader tech debate . Its distinct from what you mean when youre talking about that. How do you see the president s role here . Guest i mean, Everybody Loves to hate tech these days. I think hes just using it as a political opportunism, in my opinion. But i mean, theres some concern in the some truthful concern and thats why its an effective clinical opportunity for him. I think the president s role should be limited, and the more he ways into this, the less effective hes going to become. If he wants to be effective in tech in Algorithm Development and so on and really against the companies, less is more. Host our guest this week on the committee caters has been congressman jerry mcnerney, a democrat of california and member of the energy and Commerce Committee as well as cochair of the Artificial Intelligence caucus. John hendel has been a guest report from political. Thank you, gentlemen, very much for this community and all other communicators are available as podcasts. For 40 years cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the Supreme Court and Public Policy events from washington, d. C. And around the country so you can make up your own mind. Created by cable in 1979, cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon. If folks can take the seat i think we are going to get