So that when i go into the second paragraph where im like what if we took this identity apart, those people would not sort of, have a different history or body. But it would be a different relationship to identity. I think as a consequence, we have a more humane relationship to each other. When i got leader into the first paragraph when im saying an individual can be a heaven. Certainly, both someone who was raised by a white man or as someone who thinks of so many figures like, take for example, john brown. Who i think are some of the most precious people in the world. Its important to me to not have a formulation that removes them. So thats what i was thinking. One more question before we move on to some of your other books. Mothering black boys in america is a special calling. Yeah. Its a sentence my mother said to me. I think about it in a number of different ways. People talk about, in some ways that are difficult and maybe not a really hopeful about the challenges that black boys face in this world whether its mass incarceration or attendance rates and employment all those things. I think about it differently. I think about the simultaneity of wanting to raise my children who are identified as black boys. That in a way that doesnt limit their imaginations, their sense of possibility. That allows them to understand the facts of racial inequality. That thinks them from thinking they are superior to other people. But also that keeps them away from seeking patriarchy or dominance in a society that values those things highly. Even though those things are more elusive for blackman to attain. A society that values that. Part of the task is raising them, for me, to not tell you that. To value their characters and sensitivity and complexity. I loved it. I learned so much. And every day i was being nurtured by all of these generations of people that came before me. And helped me understand the world. We want to play a little bit of music and video from 1999. That of course is jesse norman singing at the rosa parks congressional Gold Medal Ceremony in 1999. What is that song . That song is lift every voice and sing. The song that was known as the Negro National anthem after the 1970s. Its a song i describe as black americas most precious song. Was in alabama woman and losing credibly moving. You published a biography of the song. May we ever stand. Yes, they are the author and composer. They were brothers. Who were born in jacksonville florida. Back in the day, they were called race men. People who thought every achievement they had as being in service of the race. Johnson became the first secretarygeneral of the naacp. The first black man that made it through the bar in florida. One of the signature accomplishments was the composition of the song. They were firstgeneration freemen. Born in 1870s . Yes. Well, their mothers family hadnt been enslaved. They were bahamian and their fathers, have been enslaved in virginia. But yes, they were of that generation that emerged from slavery with all of those hopes and dreams and aspirations that were so quickly dashed with the end of reconstruction. What was the [indiscernible] what was extraordinary is that the song caught on like wildfire. It was almost immediately embraced as an anthem of black america. The United States did not have a National Anthem at this moment. Even so early on, people were referring to it as an anthem. It was a big deal. The johnson brothers were educators at the time of the composition. They left florida and moved to new york to work as songwriters. In part, because there had been a terrible fire in the city. So they actually werent there in florida as the song caught on. Black club women recirculated. They printed it. It began to be printed in the back of hymnals. It was sort of an anthem of the communitys making. They didnt intend it necessarily as an anthem, but black communities through the south said this is our anthem. If we continue playing that video, we would have seen then president clinton. Who knows all three verses. It may be his distinction. I think it was the only president. From your book, may we forever stand, hiphop uttered its farewell to the black National Anthem. Where are you going here . One of the things, and i talk about this in my book, theres something that happens in the 70s and 80s, which is a transformation both of some norms and black social and political life to do with the kind of Civic Engagement and associational life. Also being connected to the industrialization. And theres a piece, i quote the reverend Joseph Lowery where he said, may he rest in peace. That black people are the moral conscience of the nation. Hiphops refusal of that position. It is bold. Its not formal. Its both profane and inconsistent and unwilling to perform a particular a reveling in the outlaw. Which is commonplace in american culture. But its a different kind of public presents for africanamericans. That the party was significant. What i also talk about is the song keeps coming back. There have been. Moments where it seemed like it would peter out completely. It keeps coming back. Even though the kind of institutions and communities in which it was sung on a weekly or daily basis dont exist in the same way in black communities. Can you draw a direct line from blanks to hues to Biggie Smalls . Absolutely. In so many ways, both of them took the beauty of vernacular language and they crafted it to tell stories that were pointed, that often had a political content. And resonated deeply or were pleasurable to engage with. They are different kinds of political subjects. Langston hughes was very overtly an activist and organizer. But their relationship to black language both in the u. S. And throughout the diaspora and their desire to understand that as their foundation for the foundation of art. Absolutely directly connected. [indiscernible] part of what i talk about in the book is of course the process by which it became the most popular form of music in the country and had an audience that expanded beyond its initial core audience. But there is something i talked about that is something prophetic about it. Because there was from the very beginning, and exposition and and elucidation of what postindustrial life in the United States was like. And in all of its complexity. Its not just this, its not an encomium to the hood. Hiphop is not. Its the next formation of it. You use the term mc. What does that mean . Its the word for rapper and hiphop. It originally comes from master of ceremonies. Many spell it, emcee. Almost like a title. Mcs are rappers. Hiphops way of describing that role. Interesting to see what made an mc, good. Whether its a reduction of history or moment and communities but what did the art consist of . I was doing sort of a literary analysis. From your book, profits of the hood. If you Start Construction of blackness in opposition to whiteness in which blackness is demonized, has become part of the art forms consciousness. I should say and before i go into this, hiphop has changed a great deal since 2004. Although i think there are aspects of the book that still describe the form at present. Two park took the idea of thug life. The criminalization of black people. The sense that the very long of american stereotyping of black people both prone to criminality and excess and gangsters and volumes. Hiphop has engaged that satirically. Critically. Played into it. Has really sort of play with that social reality through ra. Lets hear from our viewers as we continue to talk about books. Charlie. You are on booktv. Im a progressive liberal. Ive seen the world is very complex and politics is a complex situation. I dont support black nationalism because thats just as bad as white nationalism. And its feeding fascism. Trumps days. Theres good and bad in all groups. Black people are just people. Theyre not inferior and are not superior. Black nationalism is just as long as whitenationalism and i can understand why ms. Perry is supporting black nationalism. Im not a black nationalist. I am far left. Nationalism takes on many different faces. There are certainly conservative brands of black nationalism. That politically, are actually quite aligned in many ways to political conservatism. If we take an organization like the nation of islam which is clinically quite conservative but advocates black nationalism and theres the version of blacknationalism you see in an organization like the black panther party. Which are about revolutionary socialism. Third world politics, anticolonialism. That saw themselves as identified and aligned with colonized people across the world historically. So i should say that the single term actually doesnt mean much without the larger context. But i will say this, i disagree with the caller that they are equivalent. People trying to find a way of a sense of control and autonomy over communities that they live in. After a long history of colonialism and enslavement and domination is not the same as celebrating the history of colonialism and enslavement and domination. But thats not a designation i would subscribe to. You say you are far left. What does that mean . I identify as both someone who believes in democracy and a socialist. Because i believe im against economic exploitation. Safe and clean water for schools. A living wage. Healthcare. Living in this extraordinarily wealthy children red country, we should have children that are poor. We should have People Living on the street. I dont believe the narrative of the consequences of economic vulnerability are just the consequences and we should be okay with them. I dont think thats a decent way to organize society and i dont think people are poor because they are deficient. They are poor because they are exploited or have a lack of opportunity. So thats what i believe. In as much as i write and think about race, its never separate from the larger questions of the distribution of suffering in our society. Its an example of how the society has been organized in a way to distribute suffering an opportunity. My objective is not for black people to become those who dominate. Thats not the idea for me. The idea is to become free of domination. To have a real robust, thorough democracy which is only possible if you have a decent quality of life for all people in a society. This is booktv on cspan2 showing highlights from our in depth series. Joined us to talk about them. You suggest that Justice Brett kavanaugh should read your new book. Why is that . I think is probably one of the most balanced books at abortions rights and womens reproductive rights. I worked really hard to make it balanced. I think it would allow him to see other peoples points of view with compassion and empathy and perhaps protective role versus wade a little longer. You say all points are represented in this book. How so . The book is actually about a shooting at a reproductive rights facility in mississippi. In my book, a gunman comes in with a grudge and start shooting. He kills patients and hostages and patient employees and he takes the rest hostage. One of the people he takes hostage is the 15yearold daughter of the Hostage Negotiator on the outside. The people in the clinic are a wide range of people who have all been brought there at this one moment. They all believe Different Things about reproductive rights. You will see individuals who are prochoice and prolife. All of their points of view are easily and accurately represented. How do you storyboard a complex story like them. All types of connections and things going on. Theres another little twist to this book. Its told in reverse. The first thing you see is the standoff between the gunman and the Hostage Negotiator. Every chapter goes back an hour in time until at the end of the book, what you learn is what brought these Diverse People to the clinic at that moment. That was much harder than i anticipated it to being. I wound up writing a 48 page outline. Because i had to write it chronologically in reverse. But i also have to follow the storylines of 10 characters. Most of mine are about three pages long. I know my characters. I know the twist. Because i want to make sure i leave a paper trail. In this case, there was so much going on in it was so complex that i needed to map it out. The real magic was not in outlining, but in the editing. I took little postit flags and i marked the book by character. Then i edited in reverse 10 different times following each characters thread to make sure each story was coherent and then i edited entirely going forward. How much time did you spend in jackson, mississippi . I spent about a week working in particular with a man named willie parker. Hes an africanamerican Abortion Provider who is also a devout christian and says he performs abortions not in spite of his religion but because of it. He heard a sermon about the Good Samaritan and thought who will provide for these women if not mean. Now he goes all over the United States. 2526 bestselling books. [indiscernible] i always get cover input. They say what do you think of it. That was not the original cover for a spark of light. The original one looked like small great things. Our amazing art director came back with that and that really caught my eye. Speaking of small, great things. What does that represent . When i look at that cover, i think of those plateaus of color chips that artists use. If you look at the covers, there are spots where color is missing. Where there is something not quite right. Its about racism in america and metaphorically to me, that was such a beautiful illustration of what i was trying to talk about. Okay. Again, are you kennedy . I think any white person is kennedy. An africanamerican nurse with 25 years of experience in the labor delivery ward. Helped deliver a baby and in the aftermath, the babys father said didnt want to look like him and pushed up his sleeve to reveal a swastika tattoo. A bunch of personnel banded together, they sued. I hope she got a great payout but it made me wonder what if i pushed that envelope a little. I wouldve as a result, she wound up being brought up on charges of murder. What if she was defended by a white public defender. What if i could tell her story in the voice her voice and the voice of the public defender. To me, small great things is for white people. Its meant to say open rise a little wider. Its a high order for white people to point to themselves and say the same thing. Yet race is about prejudice plus power. If you are white in america, you hold all the power. Although its easier for us to see the headwinds of racism and to know if youre a person of color, your light might be harder. Its difficult for white people to recognize the tailwinds and that there are unearned benefits that come to us because we are born like this. That is something that is on white people to learn and to fix. That is the audience i was hoping for. You for in 26 books i believe it is. Any one of them a bestseller . Not by any means. I was a slow growth girl. I didnt have that overnight oprah moment. I started off very humbly. My first book had 3500 copies printed. That was it. What happened was people who read my book told their friends, you should read this and they told friends and it grew very organically. It wasnt really until, i think it was after my sisters keeper. The Second Glance that first got onto the bestseller list by itself. Without a push. How quickly was my sisters keeper optioned for the movie . It wasnt optioned quickly at all. It took a while. And it was not a fun experience. [laughter] why not . Is the movie accurate to the book . You havent seen the movie. Dont. When that book was optioned, i said the only thing that was important to me was that they keep bending. Because it has a monstrous twist at the end. I know that sold the book. People who said, i cant tell you what happened, just read it so we can talk about it. They went to higher and asked me if i would talk to him and i said yes. Im not going to change the ending and if it does, i will tell you myself. I worked with him for a year and a happy he would call me and ask questions about character. I saw a script that looked like the book. Then i got an email from a fan from a casting agency and said did you know they change the ending of the movie . I called nick at home and he wouldnt take my call that i went to the sets and he threw me off the set. I went to and i said youre going to lose money because i have eager fans and they will not want to see this movie. Instead, we know what we are doing. Nick made the notebook for us. Sure enough, they lost money on the film. My fans were very upset. Ultimately, the great irony is that money is what speaks in hollywood. Now ive had more Creative Control on future projects. Did you have any Creative Control once you optioned it. Most writers do not. Usually what hollywood will do is you want Creative Control, we dont need that. Thank you very much. Well go to an author that will take the money and run. Its a little like putting a baby up for adoption. Youre not allowed to call every day and say, did you feed her breakfast. Small great things has been optioned. What we know is that ambling entertainment which is Steven Spielbergs company. And viola davis have been attached. When i read ruth jefferson, i cant help but see viola davis. When we get into the other books and people get into the other books. Before we get to the first call, have your books gone more topical over the years. I try to look at the trajectory of my career. I think its bands where my brain is at any given time. My first book was about mothers and daughters but i was closer in age to the daughters that i was to the mother. Then i had a baby. Right before my first book was published. My second book was about motherhood. And how incredibly difficult it is because it really shocked me how hard it was. Then i got into marriage and relationships and whether they are 5050. Then i had all my kids and i have a wide span of years how many children . Three. All of the terrible things that can happen to your kids from sexual abuse to kidnapping and all these things. Then my kids grew up and they got to a point where they were selfsufficient. I think i began to take a step back and look at bigger issues. That makes me sit up at night and worry. The nature of good and evil. Things like racism in small great things. What it means to grieve and lose someone. In my sisters keeper, you say as a mother of a child has had over 10 surgeries. My sisters keeper actually do . Grew out of different places. In several places, [indiscernible]. One of the things i learned, one of these throw away facts was that the original Eugenics Society was in cold spring harbor, new york. When they folded, the group that took over was of the project. That seems almost too close for comfort. I had happened to read eugenics, a story of what they call modern eugenics. Which was the nash family in colorado. They were the first family to create a donor sibling to help their daughter molly who at the time had a disease named. She was supposed to die by the age of two. She was hanging by a thread by the age of three. They ended up designing a sibling who could provide a transplant through umbilical blood and she went into remission. I knew that was all different topic. I started to think a lot about that. Molly and her brother when i met them. What would happen to a donor sibling in the teenage years. When thats all about who am i . Am i here because of my sister. Do i have any worse on my own. I wanted to explore that. At the same time, i have been a parent of a child who had multiple surgeries. It is a benign tumor that grows behind your ear. If it is your brain, it will kill you. The traditional way to remove it is to take down the and leave the child death. My husband and i took a different approach with jake. Turned out he had it in both years and they were less than nine kids in america who had that at the time. He had marginal hearing in his right here and very severe hearing damage in his left ear. I remember what it was like during those surgeries. How hard it was to keep the family balance because one child clearly had to take precedence at that moment. We love our children equally but the truth is, sometimes circumstances arise that make you have to direct your attention toward one of your children. And that is why i wound up writing a point of view for sarah in my sisters keeper. In a quote from my sisters keeper, weve all got our scripts down pat. Kate plays the martyr. Im the lost cause. You are the peacemakers. A lot of familial relationships in your book. And that makes sense because i was watching my own kids grow up and forge a family. I found my sisters keeper fascinating on so many levels. Its taught and ethics courses at medical school and for nursing school. It really is something to consider. Because we tend to think parents can make the best decisions for their children medically but what if you have two children with competing medical interests. When it comes to medical ethics, we know that a patient and whats happening to a patient may wind up convening and ethics committing at a hospital. A donor is not considered a patient. Finally, it can be a weird and slippery slope. Choosing an embryo that has matching to help cure cancer is very different than choosing a child that has brown hair or a child thats female. You just begin to wonder, how do we begin to monitor and keep it from spiraling out of control. It was fun for me to write that book because its one of these examples that science has outstripped and every once in a while, we get to a moment where that happens. How do you describe your work to other people . People say what do you do . I say i write Science Fiction point they say what kind of Science Fiction . Most of it is very contemporary and mostly it deals with politics, surveillance, censorship and the question about whether or not technology will enable us to be more free or take away those freedoms. Is a hard to translate that into a sciencefiction format . The next question everyone asks is how can you write Science Fiction in this era of rapid change . Are you worried youll be left behind by the march of history . I feel like if you dont have seven ideas a day, youre not really trying. You were quoted in 2008 saying all sciencefiction writers are writing metaphorically about the present to extrapolate the future is to comment on the now. I think at its best, sciencefiction reaches into the world. When you go to the doctor and have a sore throat, she will swab the back of your throat and put it on a petri dish. She hasnt been able to do that because she made an exact fateful replica of your body. She made this unfaithful replica were only one fact about your body was most important. Sciencefiction writers reach into the world and build a kind of toy world where Technology Takes on an outside importance. Its a way of the latent properties of it. Especially the Emotional Properties before, 1948. George orwell gives us this incredibly useful narrative framework for talking about the emotional impact of living under mass surveillance. You can explain why that creepy without abstractions. Even talk about this concrete thing. At worst, sciencefiction writers fancy themselves or coles and they think theyre doing this future casting where theyve looked at the variables and theyve put them together. Was a big one. They call a timeline sometimes because he had these timelines of the future in his book. The predictions were so vague you could interpret them however you wanted. Dante, when he talked about what the fortunetellers would have happened to them. He stripped him naked and turn him around 180 degrees. Put them in molten pcs but to midthigh molten feces. I think he kind of gave them a break because the message of the fortuneteller is the future is coming no matter what you do. Then why are we even here . I like to think the future happens because of what we do. As writers when we can do is intervene in the future. How do you use your characters to do that intervention then . Often times what im thinking in terms of tech and policy are very abstract ideas. But they have these super concrete consequences. Writing stories that pivot on these abstract ideas like generalpurpose computing or photography. You can take these things that are literally math and make them into these emotional stories where the consequences of them become undeniable. How many books have you written . Thats another question people keep asking me and i dont know the number. Its in the 20s. There are short story selections, some books that are forthcoming and other things. Like 25ish. To talk about surveillance, privacy and things like that. Do you find yourself revisiting those concepts and characters in the books you put out . Anyone whos trying to communicate as this kind of platonic, irreducible thing in their head. They want to put it into your head. They try to reproduce and an activist telepathy through some medium. I write words and i write a story or i give i talk and i try to make it happen and then i get feedback. What people heard when i said it. From that feedback, i get a more refined idea of how i might put it into other peoples heads. The writers circle the idea through their whole career. Maybe like a walking vote fire toward their target. You change your elevation. In some ways, its all the same story. This is how i see the world. What worries me and what i have hoped for. I read that one of your novels grew out of a blog post you were constructing at the time. What happens is that everything that crosses my that seems like its significant, i try to write for public consumption. Writing notes for someone ive never met, i have to be more rigorous. That creates both a searchable database for decades of blogging. But also, it creates a kind of pneumonic soup of these fragments worry story ideas. A couple of these ideas belong together and they crystallize into novels and essays and short stories. I think some peoples method is they have an idea and the researcher. My method is i Research Everything until its an idea. Starting with your latest book, walk away. Talk about those ideas thats part of the book works i call it and optimistic disaster novel. The majority of people pulled together to help each other and the enemy isnt the bad people who have just been waiting for the breakdown of law in order to eat to their neighbors. The enemy are the people who are convinced that in time of crisis, the bad people are coming. Specifically the racialized people, the poor people who are preemptively policing them to keep them from coming and tearing down their walled compounds. Its an idea that came from a lot of sources but particularly she has researched histories of disasters and how people behave them and how we thought they behaved in them. Whether its the new york Power Outages or Hurricane Katrina or the haiti earthquake. Sometimes your people in the distance and wealthy people that are convinced there must be a breakdown of order. But when you read the first person accounts, the journals and newspapers published by the people on the ground. What you find is this incredible moment where the refrigerator background hum of petty grievance stops and this silence. People realize they have more in common with their neighbors than they had separating them. And more solidarity came the order of the day. Its about people who find solidarity in the bad lines of this spoiled territory. And who use stolen software and automated, zones to create automated luxury condominium [indiscernible]. Its a book thats had a good response. People read it and they say it feels like its nailing an intuition i had my heart that i couldnt give a word to and youre crystallizing it for me. Brief introduce of the characters and how they relate to each other. Our group of three young people who will walk away from what they call default society. Hubert has when the Anonymous Party adopts a real named policy like facebook where you have use your real name. They become infuriated to they give him the names from the u. S. Senses. His best friend is a young man named seth. They made to this trust fund areas has become disenchanted. The three of them walk away and take new names and become part of this collective. They meet a whole host of characters. Whos become a leader in this leaderless movement. Theres a mathematician named was part of a project to build practical immortality by allowing people to simulate their consciousness in computers was realized if she sticks around and others for the super rich, she will be complicit in helping humanity thats when things get hairy. When the superrich realize these boeings arent just going to be a distracted but will be alongside for the rest of eternity. Thats when the hellfire missiles come out. Then there is this looming surveillance presents that sort of runs on rails. That creates this totalitarian moment. Theres the farther of the young heiress who is a superrich charming fellow but was also good at. Then there are people who are moving to walk away world. Sang why shouldnt we find the best among us assuming they will be counted. Ive been a walk away before i understood this. Thats what walkaway is. Not walking away on society but realizing is not a world for problems to be soft and not citizens. People talk about this idea you have a certain amount of people who are unemployed. At a certain point, if you think automation is going to remove the need for neighbor and you dont assume we will do something redistributed as to that people who own robots cant do the things that robots are doing. It becomes itself a source of instability. So there are problems to be solved. They are not people. How do we buy these people off or neutralize them so that we dont have to get rid of them. Theres a saying in economics, where is the balance point . Weve always had an equilibrium before guard labor, surveillance and cops and soldiers and shia workers and so on. Between guard labor and redistribution. At a certain point, his wealth accumulates into a small number of hands, the amount of money people need to spend to keep everyone else from building guillotines exceeds the amount of money they could spend just building hospitals and roads that would defuse the energies that might lead to guillotines being built on their lawn. One of the things that mass surveillance made it so much cheaper to separate the sheep from the goats. It seems to have moved the equilibrium about where you see supporting wealth and start redistributing. Its moved that so far along that we are kind of storing up all of this resentment debt. All of these people who dont feel like they have a stake in society. I was thinking about this last week because i was speaking at a conference. People kept talking about how natural it feels. When the system starts to break down, people overrun the civic infrastructure. It struck me when you see that in prison riots movies, that makes total sense. They burn down the prison because the person exists in an adversarial relationship to them. It is where they sleep and eat but that is where they are controlled and they have no stake in the prison. The fact that we can totally understand and it feels completely credible that the minute the lights go out, so many of our neighbors will want to burn down the city they live in. To me and the author of over 30 books on economics and Public Policy. Heres a portion of her appearance from this past february. That means that if youre a woman, you dont have to agree to be raped, so to speak. If you are an employee and you dont like it, you can leave. I was reading a wonderful book by which is a novel about the soviet union. The big thing there is that people couldnt say no. They were being bossed around by someone. You are an employee, i was an employee. We did what our bosses said we do. And thats really fundamental to a free society. The other way of talking about true liberalism is, its a theory of an Adult Society and economy. Whereas many of the other options. Modern populism of the left or right. Even the social democracy wants people to be children. I think its good for us to be adults. I call myself a christian liberal. And back to why liberalism works. I can understand the point of view. It feels like one is doing good. Absolutely. Last summer, i was a festival in england. I think people who feel a want to do something for the poor, should do something for the poor. Instead of just feeling good about reading the New York Times and thinking im a good person. I care about the poor. They should help the homeless as i have, actually, in a small way. By having them come live with them. I had some Homeless People live with me for 4. 5 years, in my house. That doesnt make me a saint, just a person that wants to put money where her mouth is. The key point is to let the poor people free. So they can work and travel and live. You told me before you started that you have two acres. Thats probably because in your town, you cant build a house without a large lot. Its in the rules. Thats to keep poor people out. Thats what its for. Thats true in many places in the United States. If people with their two acre lots are sitting there reading the nation magazine, i dont know. [laughter] im out in the country. No rules. No restrictions. Im going to go back to why liberalism works. This is a quote from stephen landsberg. You say that Public Policy should not be designed to advance moral instincts that we all reject every day of our lives. Thats right. Think about not having to put your money where your mouth is. Not pushing people around. Look, ive not ever liked being a boss myself but there are people who are much, much Better Administration than i am. And if in a free labor market, of course, the person can leave if they dont like your management techniques or style. But in any case, people shouldnt be nasty. [chuckles] there was a bus driver this morning in the shuttle at ohare. He was real nasty. I said to him, your life would be better if you treated your customers with respect. University of illinois chicago . Guest no, taught there from 2002 may 2015 but i have been in the blessed state of retirement and i recommend it to you all. I retired to work more is my joke and i finished my trilogy on the economic and social history of the last century and finished this book that came out in the fall while liberalism works and i have a new book coming out from Chicago Press in the fall which is kind of a pop version called leave me alone and i will make you rich. Host you talked about your trilogy and this is abu joo trilogy, blue joo dignity, the most recent blue joo equality, what is that definition . It is the french word for it counts person and usually its too mean the leaders of the town, the merchants and manufacturers and so forth. It was in fact the common term for that class in english before the phrase middleclass became common around 1800 they started calling them in english middleclass. Before the basic idea was they were priests, though nobility and then everyone else, the third states and its only in the last couple of centuries we started to make decisions among the various people of the us and my point is really to argue against my friends on both the left and the right who are contemptuous of a business, of people who like my grandfather, and he wasnt contentious. He was an Electrical Contractor and it was its an honorable thing to do. If you are not cheating and you know, you are doing your wiring of airports well and being paid for it, that makes for see whats odd about it is it makes for a sweet society. There is this mythology marxist kind of detail that you see especially in the history of the soviet union which is anyone that makes money is evil. On the contrary, they said before you make money by doing things that people like. What exactly is the problem here cracks. To go to bourgeois virtue however quote the christian gospel attack presently harshly by the standards of the rest of the world. Its not surprising therefore that in the 18th century a Christian Europe invented the idea of socialism. Guest thats right. In fact, socialism is a sake of eyes version of many ways. Apocalypse of the resolution is understood in marxism is similar to the Second Coming of christ. The fervor of ideology among soviet communists in china. When they were sent to prison camp they thought it was zero wait okay because it was must be at the party knows and there is a very similar attitude in some versions of christianity if the priest tells me i am bad then i am bad. Theres a certain protestant element to it as well and its quite strange, that the west socalled which was most successfully economically originally now it is spread throughout the world had this i had all ideology of anti wealth thinking. I have just reread new translation by a theologian [inaudible] new testament. Its not that long. Its a short book and there is a really socialist element to its among friends this kind of equality and consumption and work assignments and so forth is very sensible, but doesnt make sense in a large society. Never has. When its tried in a large society, it doesnt work. When its about friends or family, it works socialism im talking about. Host you identify as a longtime economic. Guest i was. Host and now you are christian liberal. Guest i am. Host what happened . Well, i changed gender as your audience may want to know in 1995 i was once donald and now im deirdre and it hears after that i felt there was something more than i needed to look into so i went to the catholics and they did not like that so i went to the opposite which was the unitarian to pray to whom it may concern and i did not like that and then i found episcopalian is and because we could not go on calling it endless schism after the American Revolution and it just suited me better in fact from the beginning that anglicans , the church of england viewed itself as the middle road between roman catholicism and tyranny. Host what is about it that suits you, the customs, beliefs . Guest its the whole spirit of the Anglican Church i like. We are called in the us the frozen chosen because in virginia especially the upper class and in new york for that matter the upper class was episcopalian, but its not because the frozen chosen that i like it. In a kind of joking way it claims in episcopalian is a meat only need to believe anything, but you do the ceremonies. You come to church. You do the math. Host bus smells and the bells . Guest no, thats high church. My particular congregation i had a congregation in iowa, iowa city, iowa year and once a year we would do smells and bells which was kind of fun. But, its a very flexible framework for searching because its the journey. You dont have to believe in the virgin birth to be a practicing christian. Its the practice that matters. Indeed, think that is true of economic performance. You dont need to be a serious of the economy to be an Electrical Contractor. You just do your job and you learn from it after a while that there is mutual advantages. As i get older i keep trying to unify my thinking to see what crossfertilization there. I have a paper im working on now about theological free will which as you know is a very hairy, deep, puzzling subject and free markets. I think they are connected. They are not opposed as so many modern american or european theologians think. I think you dont have to be a socialist to be a christian. Deirdre mccloskey, lets go back to your bourgeois trilogy and this is the bourgeois virtues. I agree with my favorite marxist economists nancy that education should be financed from the center and that Maternity Care and early childcare should be state financed that taxes should be steep and corporate welfare illuminated, that the military expenditures should be cut to a tiny fraction of their present level, that im modest minimum income should be given to every american and tax laws and should encourage men and combined paid work with family and community work. We followers of adam smith are egalitarian. Is there a but in there somewhere . Guest nancy is an old friend, a professor at the university of massachusetts and should get the nobel prize, but wont. She was annoyed i called her a marxist because she is nonorthodox marxist but she is of the left and i am not. I was once kind of a joan baez social theme songs and i dreamt i saw joe hill last night, but as i said im a christian liberal, which means id knowledge a responsibility that we have towards the poor that we cant just take a kind of country club view, those are losers, this again would be donald trump, those losers i dont care about them. I have my cadillac, all is well in the world, so on a lot of the policy proposals that nancy makes on the left eye great. I may not quite agree with the scale she wants to do them on, but we agree we should help poor people and pregnant women and so forth. That there should be not a fist and people space, but an open hand of help and thats purposely perfectly consistent with what we call capitalism. When you think about it, the ordinary catalyst i do not like the work, but capitalist transaction, we buy a cup of coffee and for one thing this year act of buying a cup of coffee is mutual advantageous in both people are happy about it, the seller and the buyer, but furthermore you will notice in your own life that if you make a habit of going to that coffee shop, you eventually become friends. Commerce creates friendship, same way the church creates friendship, a church does or a college or High School Class or whatever, people get together, they are not hurting each other, they are not forcing each other to do things. They are allowed to say no and out of that comes with the french and 18th century call to class, suite commerce and thats right whereas the coercion thats necessary for most activities of the state actually, all, that is the nasty stuff. You got to pay your taxes. If you dont we will put you in jail, that kind of threats from the irs and having a minor long elite non legal dispute with the irs right now as so many of us do. I dont like coercion. I never have. Host you say you dont like the word or guest capitalism. Host yeah, the philosophy. Guest its not the philosophy i dont like. Its the word i dont like. The word capitalist was used and modified by marx, to be not just rich in investors, which is what the word meant in french say around 1800 to mean this whole group of people who are the bosses and then after marx capitalist capitalism, in german, capitalism became the characterization of our commercial society. Its a terrible word. Academically, intellectually, scientifically a terrible terrible word because its convinced a comments whether conservative or left or whatever and marxists and everyone else that capital accumulation is the spring of our commercial economy. Its not. Think of a mechanical watch. The gears are necessary, you need investment and so on, but the mode of the force comes from the spring and of the spring in modern life or indeed in old life, also its been enormously expanded its human creativity and this is the view of economics that im coming to take, the kind of economics ive done for many many years since my phd is misleading because it looks like it looks at the capital we economists call it k. We want the letter c brother things, but capital, that capital was motivational, that it did things. No, i was speaking in brazil a couple of days ago and bankers and i said to them, maybe what they dont like is that what you do is very good you choose among the creators, but youre not the creator. You say okay, this is a good idea i will make a loan to that its important and appropriate edits necessary, but its not the idea. The idea thats why freeing people under liberalism, first freeing for men, then the slaves and then slowly women, immigrants , catholics, gay people, whatever rate down to this remarkable free no transgender people. All of that works to encourage think what the word means, bring courage people to encourage people to be created and its had this amazing effective since 1800. Real terms, real ability to buy stuff and go to university and so on has increased by a factor of 13, 3000 , not 100 , 200 , 3000 and about us from the release of of human creativity in free society. Host doctor mccloskey, we are having in a general sense a debate about capitalism versus socialism in this country and this is not the first time we have had this debate. Guest its been going on since the middle of the 19th century the kids who say lets try socialism and bernie , we love you, bernie. I dont hate bernie. Who can hate bernie . Hes a charming person. Gni, he was a freshman at the university of chicago in 1960. I was a freshman at harvard college. We didnt know each other at the time, but at the time we had more or less the same opinion about this capitalism. We both wanted to overthrow capitalism. He was, i think, probably more systematic than i was. I had read half of the communist manifesto and i reckon that was enough not quite true. I have read a good deal of marx and lenin who was a hero of mine when i was 16. Read oh, boy, hes great. We had the same opinion then and i learned stuff and he didnt because he has the same opinion he had in 1960. People say hes consistent. Yeah, hes consistently wrong. We have tried to socialism. As i said, socialism appropriately and efficiently works in a family. It works among a small group of friends and it should. I buy pizza to share with five of my friends and i say well, you know i paid for this pizza, im going to eat it all, no, thats what friends do. In a big society, you know, 330 Million People , this kind of making everything into a family doesnt work. That doesnt mean you dont have charity and dont want to help each other, doesnt mean that you terrible capitalist with blood running from his mouth, no. Thats not how capitalism lists are which i think i established my first book of these three and its not what made the economy rich, which is what i established in the second volume and its not the future and past of our society, which i argued in the third book. Also appeared on in depth was author of former cub Administration Official sebastian gorka, his most recent book, the warp or americas soul. Heres part of his discussions. Guest what was missing, the second under the Obama Administration is not idea, the avowed platform that ideology is irrelevant, the terrorism is the result of poverty or disenfranchisement. Remember, the beginning of the Obama Administration i think it was the csi s, john brennan had become the president cia director said terrorism is the result of upstream factors, the result of poverty and lack of education. If that were true, half of india would be terrorists. Half of china would be terrorists and they are not as result of that flawed analysis the Obama Administration that this concept of what we find the really bad guys we just kill them and we will win. It was excluded exquisite whack a mole. Just the idea that the president of the United States, barack obama had a secure tablets on which he had the socalled threat to disposition matrix on which the locations of individual terrorists masterminds would be shared with him and he would decide which terrorists we should kill today, that is sheer insanity. Can you imagine eisenhower, can you imagine churchill actually choosing which commander to kill . Thats not the job of a president. When we arrived in the white house we inherited 420 obama holdovers in the security council. Do you do how may people work in the security it counsel in eisenhower . Twentyfive and no one can tell me eisenhowers globe was less complicated than our globe today. Under Ronald Reagan it was only 75 individuals. They had replicated government at the white house. They had made what shouldve been strategic tactical of functions and most important all they missed the ideology rich sounding engineering students to become suicide bombers on 911 because they were poor or uneducated. These were people with mas, the head of al qaeda has is an md. The Obama Administration said ideology irrelevant, islam is irrelevant, this administration sees a different lee and if you want to understand where we are going, read the president s a speech to our allies, read his incredible speech in warsaw where he talks about our enemy being evil. Its not the disenfranchised or the poor, its an evil ideology just as fascism was an ideological threat, just as the sodium soviet union wasnt ideological threat. Its not about poor people. Its about those that subscribe to the jihad ideology. Host when you look at the newspapers and hear the broadcast about what happened with general somali, there is a prediction that this could lead to world war iii. Guest its quite stunning how in the last 72 hours, world war iii world war iii was trending on social media. I mean, what world do these people live in . Do they really when someone comes up at the criticism of action, the best place to start taking politics out of it, what is the individual positing as the adverse, so they say we should have killed saul amani. A man whose hands are drenched blood of billy 600 us service men and women who have been responsible for the maiming of thousands of others, this man who we knew according to his score is it intelligence was on the cusp of initiating operations in three Different Countries in coming weeks, hundreds of us citizens let alone our arab muslim allies, leaving that man alone to do his business is better in what world . Any one who is not cheering for when obama killed Osama Bin Laden from when we and good old conans water dog took out back daddy and is and sharing murderous incarnate evil is killed , they need to examine their conscious because i dont care what your politics are or what god you pray to, who you go to bed with, what your skin color is, just examine your conscience if you think he didnt deserve to become a pile of ashes. Host sebastian, how did you get to know President Trump . Guest i thought that was at the pinnacle of my career teaching marines. I love all of our military and have special regard our double dog. I was in my third year teaching at the war college in quantico preparing for a class and i got a phone call from cory who i did not know from the hole in the ground and i said i might she said im a campaign manager, summer, 2015, he said candidate from his preparing for the full gop debate on National Security with a focus and would i consider meeting with candidate from and perhaps help to repair him for debate and i said sure and flew to new york and went to trump tower up to then candidate Trumps Office and sat down with him closer than we are at his desk and corey was in the corner and we had this incredible loose discussion on Security Issues from the civil war ride up to i sustained Nuclear Weapons and halfway through the discussion he did a classic trump is him, discussion dead, to corey the corner and said, i like this guy. Lets hire him and he asked me too become a consultant to the Trump Organization and i prepared policy papers and brace for his debates and eventually became i got to know general mike flynn who headed his Transition Team and then i became part of the official once there were only two candidates left, Hillary Clinton and donald trump i became part of the official Transition Team and finally was offered the job of Deputy Assistant to the president for strategy, which i started at 12 01 a. M. January 20, 2017c when you have lasted how long . Seven months. Host by only seven months . Guest youd have to ask a steve bannon that. I was on vocation vacation where it friend texted me and said have you seen the news. No, i was cut off from the world and i like not to be plugged in and i went to an area where i could check the internet and i sort of see steve bannon had resigned out of the blue. He was my immediate boss and there was only one layer between me and the president. Steve was chief strategist and without telling me steve said im leaving. In about two months prior to that, it had become clear to me that the new National Security advisor hr mcmaster was not a fan of mine. I was not on the National Security council, but i was always present for key meetings regarding isis, china, russia and left off the invitation for a classified meetings once he became National Security advisor so i knew i was being boxed out and in my immediate political top cover reside and i had a top decision. My wife and i sat down and thought do i stay in the white house picking up a pretty good federal salary paid for by the us taxpayers to be consistently boxed out by someone who has issues with me or do i support that make America Great again agenda from the outside and as i wrote in my letter to the president i said right now the anti make the forces are in the white house with hr being there and others and i would like to serve you on the outside and i think i can better do so in the president actually a great and now i have a National Radio show called America First with 2 million listeners, more than a million followers on social media, so my decision was straight by the belief that where i sit is not important. Its the agenda, making America Great again, being back in that place reagan called this shining city on the hill and i could best to that on the outside and its worked out in the last two years. Host your most recent book, the war for americas soul why do you open with that book with your daughter julia at Trinity College . Guest one of the reasons i wrote the book because i experienced an event that really shook me too my marrow and i have to ask my daughters permission to write that chapter and she cleared it for me. My daughter graduated from Trinity College last may. It had been a tough four years for her. She was involved in an accident that made the National News just before the term began, the semester began. There were children in a College Building and they were on the deck of the building on the third floor and my daughter stepped out onto that deck and as soon as she stepped out all three decks a disconnected from the building and collapsed on each other with children on each a deck. Luckily, no one was killed, but my daughter sustained nerve damage to her legs. Despite that she persevered, with the captain of her crew team with four different jobs in college and then she was invited to join a new institute at trinity called the church Skin Institute created by a handful of remaining conservative professors and they wanted to celebrate and to propagate the values as they sought judeochristian civilizations are like western civilization as churchill did. That was the last straw i guess of the social justice warriors and two weeks before graduation they took my daughters photograph and on social media and posted it around the campus about her name, and underneath, this is the face of white supremacy. Y . Because she was my daughter despite the fact that this girl had helped ethnic women, minority women when she did Research Projects on those who had been abused by financially by their partners, their husbands, so when it came to her graduation i was very very trepidation as. I did not want to cause a scene and i knew there would be neat many parents that were not Trump Supporters so when i arrived on that sunny day in connecticut, i didnt sit with my family. I sat under an oak tree so there wouldnt be any distractions on what should amend my daughters celebration and it was fine until after the ceremony. My daughter received her diploma, caps were thrown in the air and i decided to make my way back to my wife, motherinlaw, sisterinlaw and daughter and in the throng i was separated from everyone. A little smith of a girl walked up to me and this is the meat of the opening of the war for americas soul, little girl walked up to me may be 19 years old, maybe 85 pounds dripping wet and looked me in the eye and said you sebastian gorka, though one that worked for donald trump in the white house. I smiled, extended my hand and said yes, thats me and here i have to edit things. In that case, f you you f nazi. Email i had been through the mill and white house, but i never had someone who was living in the most successful, powerful, freest nation in the world do that to me in front of hundreds of witnesses. Once i found my composure i said im not going to let this like. The little i followed the little girl back to her family, the mother was standing there and i looked her in the face i said, who the hell do you think you are. My parents and children suffered under nazi occupation and central europe. After that my father under communist dictatorship was arrested and tortured and imprisoned here, who the hell do you think you are to call me a nazi . The girls mother was clearly shocked and jolted, her jaw dropped and said did you really say that to this man and this is why i wrote the book. Little girl, american, born and bred living in the freest nation in the world with a rictus like grin from the joker from batman looked at her mother and me and he said, yes, i did. Thats frightening. Its frightening that according to the victims of communism the moral foundation, 72 of american millennials, peter, would like to live in a communist or socialist country. Of this after the fact that we know if you read the black book of communism at least a hundred million human beings were exterminated in the name of karl marx and his communist ideologies, so i spent more than 20 years in the National Security domain. I specialized and irregular warfare and the strategy of jihadist, counterterrorism and now the last three years have been a damascene moment for me, the scales have fallen from my eyes and ive realized the greatest threat we face is the falsification of history and indoctrination of a whole generation of americans. Host rules for radicals appear in the war for americas soul. Rule number one, live by the rule of personal destruction, treat your adversary as inhuman, deserving zero respect for compassion. Guest and they have used it very effectively. The Democratic Party, the socalled for horse women of the democratic apocalypse, nancy palouse see, chuck schumer,. [inaudible] i reproduce elements of Hillary Clinton dissertation from wellesley and that she wrote when she was working i found the original dissertation and reproduced elements of it in the appendix of the war for americas soul. When you see for mmi who has moved our embassy to jerusalem, recognized jerusalem of 23 years of broken promises and has the closest relationship you can imagine with the Prime Minister of israel , to call that manette anti semi, a bigger, racist, the same person whos affected Prison Reform for minorities whose created the lowest unemployment for blacks and hispanics in america since recordkeeping began, those are all tactics, its the triangulation we were taught by Andrew Breitbart is what the left does, he set up, you isolate and destroy. Remember going back centuries, but never to this degree, we did not target children or the president said the children will go after the first ladies because they were wearing the wrong shoes as they got an helicopter. Thats why when people talk about from arrangement syndrome there is some substance to that because the level of demeaning of the other person to a point of which you deny their humanity, thats a very very unhealthy. Thats disturbing. You see that in pro per to tolerate, if you look at soviet russia, if you look at the 30s in germany, when you start 2d human eyes your political appointment and not discuss policy issues, that way leads the road to the labor camps and thats why im convinced of the fact that sadly the Democratic Party of john f. Kennedy is dead and has been taken over by extremists, radicals or cow is that you have about anti semites saying israel is evil, hypnotized the west and its all about the benjamin. Bomar tweeted two days ago that the president murdered a Foreign Government official. What . Salami was a mass murderer. Foreign Government Official to this woman . We are living in dark dark times but as Ronald Reagan taught us on the right and i consider myself to be a reaganite, we are happy warriors. We are fueled by love, love of country, love of liberty and what i see on the left and thats another reason i wrote the book is a movement that has become the will by hatred, perhaps hatred of thyself, maybe some psychological underpinnings but hatred of what they think america is which is not some imperialist colonial force of the freest nation that has helped others in need. Whenever the democrat party, the left, the fake news Industrial Complex tries to manufacturer charges against the president whether it was regards to russian collusion or extortion and bribery in the uk every single time its rebounded back onto them as my good friend chris who oppose the morning show in dc says its reminiscent of that final scene in the hunt for red october with the bad soviet commander launches her vetoes thinking hes going to sink sean connery summary, but what happens . The torpedo circles back and thinks his own vessel. The fact that Hillary Clinton and the dnc paid a former foreign secret agent to gin up a dossier of russian propaganda to use in a secret to spy on us in the Trump Campaign and in the Trump White House and then come after us poor collection connection to russia, the sweetest most delicious of irony that they then accuse the president of some kind of the mouth of malfeasance with ukraine in a phone call we have all seen the transcript of which there was nothing wrong. When Hunter Bidens son was taken home between 50 and 80000 per month from a corrupt company that was investigated by the ukraine in which his fathers point person for the Obama Administration demanded the big ukrainian ukrainians fire that prosecutor before he gave them a billion dollars, all of these things serve back like a boomerang and you are corrected one thing, crowd strike. Crowd strike is perhaps the one thing the democrats and dnc and hillary and james call me and brennan dont wish to talk about, the idea that a company that has great interest in that was working in the ukraine, connected to the dnc, we need to get to the bottom of that, but if you believe in justice i have good news , william barr, john burrowed are on the case and they are unflappable and they are unstoppable, so stay tuned. Host this tweet for you, sebastian, how much of an influence is clausewitz its a book on war part of your own philosophy . Guest great question. One of my three favorite books. I break it down a great deal in my second book why we fight if youre interested in strategy and National Security, there are two classic authors you must be familiar with, on war and familiar with the chinese chinese strategist, the art of war because they complement each other. It was never meant to be published during the authors life and was published posthumously by his widow, but its the most influential texts on how the west does National Security, how the west bailing system of nation states thinks about security and thats why its important. Its not always right but the concept of friction are paternally applicable. On the other hand, its incredibly important because it breaks you out of your eurocentric way of thinking and illustrates how other nations have very different ways about thinking with regard to National Security and a strategy. He is it is essential reading if you wish to understand what china is doing against us today. Even what iran and russia are doing, not because they are asian, but because it is the foundation of irregular warfare, of the indirect approach, how you take down a more powerful enemy than yourself so if you want to start your library, National Security, start with these and billet from their. Host you are on with author sebastian gorka. Guest a real honor, sir. Something that has been bothering me that i think has been missed or at least not brought up. Caller i think its that Vladimir Putin has played the Democratic Party to do his bidding. If the democrats would have coalesced around the president instead of attacking him, and all of this stuff we have been going through may have never occurred, but he knew how stupid these people are and he played them like a fiddle. Guest there was afraid, bob, from the cold world cold war, useful idiots and thats really the case. When you have the most egregious example, when you have a former cia director, John Brennans john brennan , obamas director of the cia on National Television not long after he leaves office usually was treasonous to describe the president of the United States, Vladimir Putin is laughing into his cheerios. Whether or not brennan is a being paid by the kremlin is a relevant, hes doing Vladimir Putin is bidding. Of the idea that a president like donald trump who has green lit the targeting of more than 200 russian mercenaries in syria by our forces, a man that instead of steady sent and her take missiles, an individual who instigated some of the top based regimes against moscow we have ever seen that that person is treasonous as and a put novel. [inaudible] than the massive return on their investment even though they didnt pay these individuals so its sad that eight party that was so in the tank for the left, remember ted kennedy had negotiations with the kennedy trying to elicit their assistance to undermine Ronald Reagans reelection, that Democratic Party that was always on the side of the left, on the side of useful idiots, now they are accusing donald trump and conservatives truly beyond the pale. Host and from sebastians 2018 book, why we fight russia does not share market interest. It may face its own jihadi threat, but that doesnt mean it is or can be our friend. Thats a look at some of the authors featured on book tvs in depth and watch these programs in their entirety or any other episodes go to book tv. Org. Host as regular viewers of book tv no, all of the major book festivals this spring had been canceled due the coronavirus. Book tv was scheduled to be live in tucson, los angeles and festivals in new orleans and san antonio as well. All canceled. We know that affect its having on book fairs and large gatherings, but is it having an effect also on bookstores and Small Businesses . Mitchell kaplan runs a chain of bookstores based in coral gables, florida, called books and book. Mr. Kaplan, has coronavirus affected your business . Guest yes, peter, unfortunately it has. We have been holding on as long as we could, but it looks like starting tomorrow we will be closing down all six stores that we have in the miami area and to trying to move our sales online and encourage people to buy at our website. This is happening, i believe, across the country with independent bookstores everywhere, and like normally happens, independent bookstores are very representative of whats happening with Small Business. There are many many thousands upon thousands of Small Business people who are suffering the same way we are. Host mr. Kaplan, are you doing this because the state of florida mandated it or because you have seen such a dropin foot traffic and sales that its a necessity . Guest well, theres a couple of reasons. One, at this point with the mandate that has come through and the guidance from the cdc about people not gathering in places where there are more than just a few people, we feel its our responsibility to heed to those warnings. Ironically, the thing that makes independent bookstores so great, which is that its a Gathering Place and the place where communities come together. Thats now one of the big liabilities that we have. So, in an attempt to help flatten out that curve of as they say, we are closing our stores. Host what about author events . Have you had a lot of cancellations prior to the closing of your store . Guest we have had 30 or 40 author cancellations starting a couple of weeks ago people were canceling. So, we have had lots and lots of cancellations going into April Anderson very big names authors that we expected very larger turnouts for as well as smaller debut authors, so its having an impact all across publishing as well. Imagine being a young author, your first book coming out and comes into the world right now and its a very very difficult situation for the literary community. Host have you thought about doing online videos with these authors . Guest yes. That is something that we are exploring and publishers are exploring, we are exploring it and also the podcast, the literary lives, my podcast will continue in which i interview authors. I was usually doing it with authors coming here , but im going to do remote interviews as well, so we are going to try to keep everything alive as much as we can with the spirit of the store online through facebook life, through instagram, through our channel of youtube you know as well as our website. Host mr. Kaplan, how long do you think you will be closed . Guest thats a really good question. I wish i had the answer. What we are announcing is that we will reassess every two weeks, so basically march 31, we will look at it and see where we are then. To see if theres a chance to open. I suspect that this will impact, not only my business, but Small Businesses everywhere for many, many, many months to come even if we do get up and. I mean, we have been open the last week with very minimal business. People just dont want to go out and i think probably until a vaccine is found in people feel secure there will always be that sense of insecurity in gatherings host have you shut down your restaurants earlier or is that shutting down as well tomorrow . Guest the restaurant is shutting down tonight. Actually, that is the one thing the state mandated that restaurants will only be open for takeout. That is not happening too much either. I have friends in the Restaurant Business and i think people are staying away from that, also. People are really hunkering down. Host book tv has worked with mitch kaplan for years and my guess is that you are quite concerned about the employees of those six stores. Guest that is the key thing. Thats one reason i stayed up and as long as i did in order to keep my employees working. You know, most people its been said that most people work paycheck to paycheck and most of Small Businesses work revenue day to revenue day, so you know if in fact there is no revenue coming in for Small Businesses, there is that much money to pay employees. So, i have my employees on as long as i can. We will keep their Health Insurance going and try to protect them as much as we can and we will lobby i know the American Booksellers Association is lobbying the federal government when they are starting to bail certain things out that they pay close attention to the Small Businesses and the people they employ, the people on the front lines. Host Mitchell Kaplan is also a cofounder of the Miami Book Fair mr. Kaplan, is there any talk yet about the Miami Book Fair not happening in november . Guest no. We have not got to that point yet. I hope we dont have to. I hope by then, you know , there is a modicum of caution or a modicum that there is enough room for people to gather cautiously because as you know you have been to our book fair and its so meaningful to the city and to the county. We have never really had to cancel the book fair completely. One year we had a hurricane coming, so we canceled the street fair , but we had all of the authors there. If we did cancel, it would be the first time in close to that 40 years that we canceled. Host and finally, what is your website if the people wish purchase the books, author interviews or listen to your podcast . Guest thats wonderful. Thank you for giving me that opportunity to tell people about books and books. Com. You have to spell out the word and, books and book. Com. And you can purchase books online marathon of our newsletter. My podcast is available wherever you listen to your podcast, but its also available through literary hub, lit hub. Com. You can find it on apple and other things. Is called the literary life with Mitchell Kaplan and its kind of like a conversation over your backyard fence. Just a conversation with authors and people in the literary world the. Host mitch kaplan, thank you for spending eight view minutes with book tv. Guest peter, its always a pleasure. We are showing some authors we have covered whose books discuss disease and pandemics. Here is how diseases transfer from animals to