Transcripts For CSPAN2 Charlton McIlwain Black Software 20240713

Society, driven eco block chain and cryptocurrency across industries and for social impact, active in primarily technology and currently represent more than 1. 5 trillion in investment capital. The motto is fund revolution. I love that. So were celebrating a book tonight thats very compelling story, very important story, kind of lesserknown in the annals of history. And people have been working toward justice inside the technology industry. Black software, Racial Justice to the net and black lives matter by charlton mcillwain, and published. Welcome. [applause]. Thank you. Thank you for that introduction and thanks for all of you that have come out and maybe a few others will trickle in along the way. So this is a great, its a great place to be. Im wrapping up whats been about a month and a half long tour promoting this book and i can think of no better place to end up this part of the tour in this historic moment. I was just telling these gentlemen before we started that when i got out to the west coast and i was telling everybody where i was headed next and i said city lights and everybody forgot about the book. They just go, oh, my gosh, i grew up there, spent all this time there and theres a bar across the corner and so its a great thing to be here to talk about this book and to talk with and thank you, david, for joining me out tonight. When i give awe back story about the book and get into some conversation. I dont know where to lead. Ive got a starting point, but i have a feeling we might jump off course, who knows, and well throw out the q a to the audience at some point. So, i thought id start by telling you how black software came to be, at least where the journey started for me and that was very simply to explain or try to explain black lives matter. Here was this movement, a movement that was powered by digital technology, by folks who had harnessed these new Digital Tools to do something that people had not managed to do since really the late 1960s, and that was to put the issue of race, Racial Justice, and really the issue of the way that black folks suffer at the hands of the u. S. Criminal Justice System back onto the u. S. Public agenda. Not sense the early 1970s had that happened, but come 2014, 15, 16, you saw that everyone across the country, even beyond the country, knew who black lives matter was, knew what they stood for, knew what their message was and even some folks who were not predisposed to agree with their positions found themselves agreeing and saying, yes black folks are treated differently in this country and particularly in terms of criminal justice. I wanted to understand where did this Movement Come from. To know things like this dont just materialize out of thin air, so where did it come from . Where was the genology . Where did thee folks trace their lineage, mostly in terms of racial and social justice work, but also the facility, the knowledge of a relatively new technology. So thats where i began and i thought i knew the story i was going to write. So this is you know, for anyone who has written a book here, the anxiety that there is when you think you know what youre writing about and then find out you have no idea what youre writing about and that happened over and over and over the course of about three years or so writing this book because it did really start off as black lives matter. And the more i started going back in time and finding folks like david here and well talk about this much more, the story just began to change, discovery after discovery of different people, different times and different stories that then compelled me to say that theres something bigger, theres something broader here. But let me start where i first began, which was the 90s, right . And when this is where it comes online and everything happens and a natural place to start, but those of you everybody except for maybe a couple, you all remember the 90s. If you were thinking about black folks and technology in the 1990s, those are two words you undoubtedly remember or talked about, want to remember . Youre too young in the 90s. [laughter] the Digital Divide, right . That was the way in which we began to think about black folks in technology at that point on. And as much as larry irving and other policy makers had good reason for trying to point out the gap between access to technology, i thought that there was a tremendous erasure that was affected. And so, in some of these talks where i have projections, i usually put up on the screen a number, 5. 6 million. 5. 6 million were the number of people in 1995, number of africanamericans who had computers at home and who were online in 1995. But that is a story of that 5. 7 million, 5. 6 million that we know heretofore nothing about because we presumed the story was black folks do not have access, therefore they have contributed nothing to this new medium and to this platform. And so my story began then trying to understand who were the 5. 6 million . What were their stories . What did they do . With are did they come from . Where did their journey start . And thats where i first met david ellington. And i want to start the story there with reading a small portion of the book and i didnt know that david hadnt gotten his copy from oxford yet so maybe this will be a little bit of a surprise. But i want to read in and sort of finish out the story and tell us what this moment meant. Chapter eight is called the battle for black cyber space. And it starts here, beginning on april 12th, 1861 america engaged in the great civil war. On january 1st, 1863, president Abraham Lincoln emancipation, proclamation. Half nothing changed for many slaves. Then Major General george granger, and union troops arrived in galveston, texas. There he read the proclamation. The people of texas are informed in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the United States all slaves are free. This involved an absolute equality of rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and free laborer. No slave was free until all slaves were free and so black people commemorated the day, they called is juneten juneteen juneteenth130 years later to the day, they assumed general grangers role and their announcement was as revolutionary as that historic moment when that last slave received word that she was free. It started in and there was a launch and malcolm, beck and david, back down to the dungeon, there malcolm gave david a glimpse of the future. Ill stop reading right there, but david, tell us about that beginning, that moment and it might be a little tell us about what ultimately became net noir and the significance of what it is that you malcolm and the team of technologists and others launched. First, thanks for inviting me, hosting city lights. You just kind of blew me away. I completely forgot that. Specifically and for you to even tie it and remind me about juneteenth. Thats the way that we launched intentionally. Junete juneteenth tied to emancipation and your eloquence kind of captured it better than i could have. So i was in los angeles. I had gone, well, i need to back up further. Why would i care about or do something in africanamerican culture just because im from african descent, an africanamerican. I went to Howard University for graduate school and got a masters degree in african politics in the 80s. I then so i had a passion. I really wanted to know my culture and you know, the myths in the black community that we walked around like kings and all that, i wanted to know the truth. I went for two years and got this degree so it was always a part of my life, but then i knew i wanted to go to law school so i ended up working to make a long story short, i ended up going to law school in washington, went to georgetown. Go to georgetown law and i knew i wanted to start at least my practice on the west coast. I had lived overseas for a bit and i wanted to be on the pacific rim. I went to tokyo for a while, i came back, went to law school then when i graduated i said let me be on the pacific rim so i moved to l. A. L. A. Is is the entertainment world and all of my clients were black, surprise. Mostly stages thing called hiphop and r b and also the time when gangster rappers started and all that. But i realized i was really getting my feet wet in this medium and i was really excited about it, and this guy, since id lived in tokyo, and still kept in contact with some folks there. There were only seven or eight black people in tokyo at the time and guess what . We all knew each other. [laughter] especially in that age group. And separate from the military guys, right . You were outside of tokyo. Anyway, theres this one guy, a wild background. His name is kenny. He was a deejay, but he was born in south africa, raised in namibia, they went to sweden. A tall, beautiful guy, a model in tokyo, and okay. Hey, whats up. And we became friends and stayed in touch. I moved back to america, went to law school, then went to l. A. And they said there is a kid malcolm, went to mit under grad and going to stanford and i told him to come visit you first. I said okay, fine. He came down over, he was on a motorcycle he comes up to stanford, and starts school there so his undergrad Computer Science and going to get his masters in Computer Science. Im practicing law and an entertainment lawyer in los angeles so my parties are better. So he comes down all the time. Hes was going to just go to school at stanford. And so eventually i go to visit him and long story short, i with ent went to visit him once and he was at stanford, living in palo alto and i went to, apparently the Computer Science students called their lab the dungeon. All right. And the dungeon. So i go and hes always a crunch, school at Computer Science in stanford, okay, you can come in, ive got work to do, come down to the lab to see it, but i cant walk you through stuff ive got to finish this project. I said cool. And he sets me in front of this computer, big computer still, chunky stuff and big keyboard and im trying to keep myself busy and playing around on this thing and then the room for the computer room, its not pretty, its in the basement of the campus. Im looking around and clicking around and how one of my favorite games back in the day was othello and flipped from black to white, black to white and i was playing the game. And it turns out i got into the university of stockholms site. There was some kind of something and back in the day when it was all text still. So i tried to get out of it and im sitting in there theres a chinese guy sitting next to me at the computer and im like i cant figure this out and i cant find malcolm anywhere and this guy, i said, do you know how i can click, click, click, brought me back out. He said if you want to find stuff, here, you can use this that i created, its called this guy, working on his ph. D. , blah, blah, blah, i said what is it called. A list of text of things and click on and go somewhere and it was called get another high arcual and organization, it was yahoo jerry yang, later became jerry yank and he was getting his ph. D. And his later partner david. And this is the world i got exposed to and when i saw that, being an entertainment lawyer and knowing my culture, i saw there was nothing in all of those clicks, seems like only 2,000 links, text links, right, this is before the worldwide web, which means there was no www. Thats when all the graphics and sounds and videos added. Before there was just text, it was internet, mostly scientists and the dod, defense probably using to design bombs. So i decided that there was something here so when i went back to l. A. , thats when i had it started, just started. With him on the phone, back and forth, and thats when we and then finally said, something super net or black no not black, thats too hard weve got to so i came up with noir. He came up with net noir. And i want to read the part. Thats one of my favorite parts of that particular conversation in the book. We suddenly, this is you and malcolm, let me start earlier. David was the approaching middle age lawyer and. [laughter] this is malcolm. This is malcolms talk to him later. Malcolm was a young geek, david took the lead and his vision was dead on, but malcolm was there to remind david that his execution, his proposal lacked, well, a kind of technological charm. Yes. We suddenly realized the idea of a network of black culture was an opportunity, the potential names for the venture that began exploding in their minds. Afro net was first out of the gate. They ruled it out and discovered that a company with that name already existed selling hair nets. Not to mention malcolm pointed out there was an Online Service named afro net that already existed. Malcolm suggested cyber black. David squashed it, too hard he said. I could have easily gone down the path of being the blacker than black service and i had to say hold it were going about to enter the 21st century its about creating a place for people to talk and debate and have fun. The Business Model of the next century was inclusion and then it happened and malcolm said net. David said noir. Unbelievable that he that he we were doing the project together, but thats exactly what happened and then the story is ultimately he had this plan for net noir. You come before ted, who is magic man handing out buckets of money looking for great entrepreneurs and buy you all in, you made your pitch and the rest, as they say was history. What was that in a previous version of the book i had a chapter that was titled remember when the internet was black. And it had everything to do with net noir in that moment and that sort of the relation about your idea, malcolms idea, and recognition from ted and aol that, say, this is going to be big. Well, yes. And by the way, just to tie the last piece up, so we built the thing for six months in the early part of 95 and juneteenth we flipped it on aol. Yeah, what happened was really also because of my then wife, who since passed, wendy marks. She was working for a Company Called Redgate Communications and the president and founder was ted. Steve case bought Redgate Communications and presence of America Online while dave was ceo and teds First Initiative im going to find and identify and fund info printer words and big thing. And company wide, they said submit your idea called net noir and introduce it to ted and we were the First Company funded by America Online. So today, another brand you may know, mottley fool, the only other went that is still around. There was six of us, one or two or three others. Thats exactly what he wanted. He knew that content would be compelling, people would want to join and pay monthly for some service and those were the only Online Services and we talked about earlier before you guys got here, the 1200 baud and right, the 2400 baud and then America Online with all of these diskettes and there was compuserve and thats how they wanted to step away because of what they did. So we were able to we got in front of ted. We were infopreneurs and there was some weird number, but by doing oh, hed have 5 of the company so a Million Dollar valuation, and like, right, you know, youre a made man, and we wrote this check go out and make money and thats when i went to Venture Capital and thats why we were different in the marketplace. We were the first Venture Capital professional money invested in because a lot of people started things, including new york online. Right. That was and his partner at the time. That was new yorkers primarily. Great that was a predecessor to us and a bunch of other ones as you well know. We were the ones that got oh, theres an opportunity here so not only a corporate Strategic Partner and distribution, also Venture Capital check. So corporate money from ted at America Online and then Venture Capital money from ciscom from jones, and from the space and also bet. So what does it mean for you to think that to know that, to live the first big commercially successful Venture Capitalbacked property, as it were, online that brought millions of folks to this new medium that as we were talking about, nobody knew what it would be for, what was did about to think about a black Internet Service that featured black content, had black owners . Tell us about the significance of that moment both for that time, but also looking back, knowing what we know now about the Current Technology landscape and well, of course, i got a lot of hype, a lot of media attention. Malcolm did as well. It was novel, it was different. We did get fortunately were not in the Digital Divide basket, they tried to put us there, but we were doing pretty well. So its that 5. 6 is we were talking market and think about it, if you have black folks online and puts in certain category just like white folks or anybody. So, we showed we could demonstrate to Mercedes Benz this is where you should advertise and all of that came about. My dream was to make sure you know, id gone through all of these conferences and ill never forget i was at this theater in San Francisco in the castro theater and it was packed, it was 500, almost all white guys with pocket protectors and they were announcing the grateful dead cdrom. And ooh. And the cdrom which is obviously online, not connected to the internet. Thats how it evolved, went literally from cd roms and then Online Services and then put it in and dial up to an Online Service and then obviously the internet, but the point being that thats when it hit me, a guy in african politics, entertainment lawyer in l. A. And clients, knew all the content, we are american culture, pop culture for sure. Right. Certainly athletics. So i wanted to make sure that our culture was not left out of this revolution. I was determined. Im just passionate about that and of course im going to think about, okay, the black thing, what am i going to do with that. And thats how it i was determined, but malcolm was different. Malcolm mit undergrad and grew up on a farm in pennsylvania, literally. And he was chess champion and now getting was in japan, his second language japanese and going to stanford, a nerd, a nerd with a personality, right . Right. So it wasnt as much of an issue about you he bought into it. He got it. He knew the value. It was that kind of important. There was a missiondriven business. Right. That was fortunate enough to turn into a bit of a business. Tell me ill wrap up and do some q a with the audience. But you remind immediate about, i dont know, three or four weeks now, doing an interview on science friday in pr and midway through they opened up the line to callers and theres a woman, im forgetting her last name now, but latashia and she came on and said, hey, i was part of that net noir team, engineer, come from harvard, et cetera, and you know, remembering kind of the magic of that moment. Yeah. But what was it like for you and malcolm, of course, had all the attention, but you had a team with you. Most definitely and i im glad you mentioned that. It was totally a team we had upwards of 150 employees at one time between 150 employees and consultants. Think about it, i was in San Francisco, i was in south park, and to see that many black folks Walking Around south park is a shock, let alone 2019, 2020. But for those folks and those people involved directly, yes, charlton, it was a magical and anyone can, you can just imagine, wow, were doing the hottest cutting edge tech they think called this internet and were doing culture and everyone is looking at it and we were in magazines and tv and everything. It was this has been an amazing experience for me to even look at it through the lens of, oh, yeah, that was exciting. That was amazing. [laughter] i got up every day and was ready to go and you know, Endless Energy and, yeah, it was magic and im glad that everyone involved the overwhelming majority of people involved felt it and were a part of it and the kl candidates culture i like to create is you dont work for me, we Work Together and you have a role, you are in the lane and deliver, i deliver in my lane, but lets do this together. Move on to one last thing, that would be, i think, remiss to read a chunk of given where we are, has everything to do with the fact that, you know, by the end of the 90s, you were transitioning out, net noir was transitions in aol and being sold and so forth, malcolm was out. Many other folks like you, black folks that were entrepreneurs and building things in the Technology Space along with the crafts generally in tech tiles to come. All of this is gone and all of you, i wont say were forgotten, but i remember you telling me, hey, we were in the magazine, we were a big thing, but not since. And latashia sort of called up and said, hey, no one has gotten the story of all of us black technologists and engineers who were a part of this. And since for me, in which black software was two stories and if any of you have lead it or seen it and seen the label of context know theres book one and book two because they represent two stories that i ultimately found and felt compelled to tell. The one being the story of you and folks like you that were celebri celebritiry finding folks that people had missed that history had missed in these revolutionary moments, but the other story was the other part of black software and you had done this talk. Ive given the title of black software, one book, two stories and a little cocaine. So im going to talk about the cocaine, to wrap up, and its one of those stories about my wife still dont understand why the cocaine stuff is in the book. Its real. Number one, its one of those things you dont lose no matter once, once you discover, its going in the book some where somehow. So in the 1980s, Silicon Valley held to the second hightech revolution from the bay area, the region radiates outward, from Stanford University to the west and up to daley city down past san jose and haywood. It was named for invention, innovation and entrepreneurship and the region long ago helped to birth the net, personal computer, but in the 1980s, cocaine the valleys newest, preferred and hightech curio. The valley had had dreams intellectual and industrial spaces including at stance ford connected labs and government sponsored Research Centers provide add new frontier for imagination to wonder and each had felt the impulse for new tools with master the universe. The new tool brought to market in drove provided the satisfaction that comes from dreams not deferred. Could he cape was tailor made to fit the valleys technological al entrepreneurial ethos, its daily grind, its demand to create value. Its pervasive drive to success and its capacity to aspire. The section goes on to talk about what we know and are all too familiar with which is that cocaine in the 1980s took a trip down from this area, down the coast to South Central los angeles where it changed technology, a Chemical Technology and then wreaked havoc on los angeles and then ultimately the rest of the country in the form of crack cocaine and we all are familiar with its aftermath. And so when people ask me what is black software, it really is these two stories and the cocaine story in the book is really about thinking of how another kind of technology dd like, you go to engineers and so forth, doing this years ago and my friend would say, what the hell are you talking about black software, can software be racist or internet or technology be racist . Im like what the hell are you talking about . So i wanted to provide a different kind of analogy, a different technology, cocaine we could very well see how it changed and in its transformation, change the way its engaged with different communities, black and white, and so black software and that metaphor becomes a way to talk about not just the ways that we were able to martial to build wealth and politics, but point back to the ways that these technologies were first introduced, produced and utilized to neutralize the threat that black people pose to the system and that is where ultimately becomes book two. So there was a when all that came crashing down in the 90s, there was a sense of inevitability, that it was great, but couldnt last too long, that black folks were not going to be able to profit and really have a strong hold in this new medium and so there was a course correction, if you will, but maybe lets wrap up and go to questions, if you will, just kind of reflect on a question that we concept. That we talked about briefly, you know, several times that is why it all disappeared. Why is it that we look at on the internet and Technology Lan scape and see so few folks like you back in the day, folks that were owners entrepreneurs, initially successful in the arena. Where did it all go . What happened from your point of view. Oh, a variety of things. The early nature of the internet was media driven so everything was around advertising and i remember, you know, we were at the sixyearold company and im still going in and during that six years, the young at the advertising agency, the young exec the young kid just joined the ad agency would be given the digital stuff. Every year there was a new person and i had to educate them about the audience of black folks, black professionals. And it was super frustrating. And here is my demographics, the numbers, no, no, no, is that still a value . I can reach those black people, more money to yahoo or at the time that mattered google or whatever else. So thats one piece, revenue to sustain that business was a challenge. But i think, you know, theres weird period here in San Francisco, i didnt see any black people, dropped down to 3 or 4 for the city, especially for the early oughts. Lately im seeing black kid Walking Around working for google, twitter, pinterest, where did you come from . Here, but theyre not so much starting their own. In fact, a little twist for you, is when they do spin out, some of them are starting businesses that are totally mainstream, thats the difference. Its not like the vertical. Right. Thats number one, or number two, theyre starting venture fund or trying to start a venture fund or they want to interest in entrepreneurs of any kind. And the return on investment, but you are seeing a lot more young, black professionals went to great schools, can code, do all that, just as geeky as all the others and not necessarily as interesting to talk to, you know, you could walk around town all the time, who have changed a significant chunk of the culture of San Francisco, that meant they bought into that and thats who they are. And so, but they still identify black, they still know their culture and they still tie into that, but they definitely work at pinterest or twitter, da, da, da and they want to deliver and its interesting how that evolved. So, no, i dont see only the occasional maverick or just im determined to build this business, but every time theres like the only business ive seen in tech, actually i rarely see any businesses in tech that are started towards black folks or black culture and even we ended up broadening out in the market. If you like anything about black folks come to net noir and thats how aol positioned us as well. Black voices, thats how it happened. So much to say we could go on for hours, i dont think theyre going to keep the room all night. Questions from the audience . Comments for david, myself, anything about the book . Stunned audience. [laughte [laughter] [inaudible] is there any fear or do you see any iteration in todays i know ive seen fbi called black identity politics is what theyre going after . Yeah, its a good question. They say this is happening, then they said the other big story is he been under wraps for five years. There was a moment, ill refinish this book, and a sort of just chuckled and those like you got all wrong because this is not a fiveyear story. Its 50 years. There theres a very real direct thread that everything we see today in terms of facial recognition, in terms of algorithmic surveillance practices, all of that has a through line back to the mid60s, a through line right back to ibm. This is just the perfection of something that started long ago, not the beginning. To answer your question, theres a lot to be afraid of. Theres a lot already going on, a lot more coming down the pike that is in many respects, i see a course correction. That is, we have this struggle of technology. Its there. We use it. We marshal it for our interests. You saw this in black lives matter and twitter. It was powerful until cops decided i can get on twitter, too, and i confide you. I knew exactly where you will be popping up. I dont care where else in the country youre going to be, even if its all at the same time. Theres this push and pull better think is the the inevitable struggle about technology, particularly when it comes to issues of race. Yes . Going back to the probe, continuing 50 years, arguably going back to earlier technology in terms of surveillance and control. There is a certain of capacity of people, citizens, to push back against the state when the state does the kind of policing, antiradical and racist that the fbi did. In the private sector and, of course, theres relationship between the private sector and the government and sort of people moving in and out of the different sectors. There seems to be, on one hand theres a power of the capacity to mobilize with these new technologies and to educate and organize. On the other hand, how do bounds get put on the use of data that is collected by these private enterprises and then shared or bought by the government, entities that we dont like doing the things we dont like . Another good question. I think in part you answer already, which is, you know, a part of me doesnt want to give short shrift to black lives matter and other movements who have used tools very powerfully. I think the one thing they demonstrate over and over again are the limits. Its not a sense there is no other way of venue to push, and people are pushing. But theres a limit to technology that you dont own but you dont control, for some parts of the population of just simply not familiar with that inhibits your ability to push back, and then to think about what is on the other side, and that is the free flow of data as you mentioned between private companies, governments, shout of governments and other entities that is just shout oh shadow governments. Everything going on down at the border to control the threat. Anything to contribute on the particular while i mean i think, im sorry, im very pessimistic. Lets say theres not one more bit of data gathered. The amount of data, and if it is organized and processed the way it is intended to put other wae folks want to use, theres no privacy, period. Its interest, i spent a lot of time in china and, of course, year and theres this massive come look at how bad they are in china, and because they rely on their government come has overstated. I talked to point of chinese folks on the ground. Thats okay because the government has it, its okay, its safe. I havent heard any american say that recently hit. Number two, how much we think its okay the private sector is all the state about us and they are allowed to make money off of our data and we do get paid for it ever, yet thats okay. From now on we have a lot of issues and i think i dont believe any of them will be solved the way we want, any of us really want. Thats my personal answer. Ive been collecting data, we collecting, advertising, content. Our stuff was a sophisticated back then, but now they are constantly telling me everything you are doing is what i want or for better for me. Thats just a lie. Thats my response. I have a question. Some of the younger tech people [inaudible] some of the younger people working in the Tech Industry to ask, what are some of the things they should be more concerned about . One of the young folks i think, its you know, its hard to respond to that. If you will step back and look at this room. This is their turn. Its not our turn. There is another generation. We have had our opinions and tt things were okay and our parents thought we were crazy. We have now become our parents. They dont mind, to them, having sex in posting that is okay. Wow. In fact, thats how some people got started being celebrities. Some a couple multi billionaires as result. We live in a different error that maybe you and i dont get. So i dont know what question is, the right to think they are now leaving this impact thing but, in fact, for them is a button to click and never get your hands dirty, as far as im concerned. Its a detachment, so i liken it to come i would think critique, i think thats rude and disrespectful of them. I can just comment on the observations. I can make observations and hopefully encourage them to think a little bit more about the implications for the impact of what their conduct is. But im not going to be judged. Im in no position to be a judge anymore, in my opinion. Yet, and ill Say Something similar. It comes from having to good fortune over the last couple of months at incidents like these and so forth to find a lot of young black folks who say hey, im working at facebook, im an engineer, about it twitter, this that and the other. They also say the same thing. I need and want to make some money and thats real. And that is part of that like im hardpressed to judge and say no, you should be all about the revolution right now, and d for all of these things when ive already had my chance. But they also all say im alone, i dont feel like i have community, i see things that are not going the way that i think they should, in terms of how this technology is being used. But, of course, what can i do . What can i say . I think if theres a question out there for then ask, it simply when is the right moment . What keeps me optimistic is they all recognize this. I meet so many that are like yeah, we do stuff and im not ashamed to say it. Its kind of but then its the what next . And what do i have to give up or defer to be able to really push this sense of we need to do something better. I think thats the question for them. I think its a question for us, how do we help support and make it easier for all of us to push back in some ways that we think should. We are financing waiting minute, the contract with the navy, and thats at least a start. There is that elbowed out there. But for black folks in particular its really sticking our next out because we finally had a decent salary. Now im going to really we feel, is that necessarily true, but this is all we have. Im not inheriting anything for grandma or grandpa or dad or mom. Im the first one out the gate was finally making real money and now you want me to risk all this to do what . Then i can be considered why did you leave facebook . Looking for job at google, twitter. Stays with you. You made an interesting point when you are identifying in your book this area and [inaudible] this area has always been an area of change. A new thought, new way of doing things. [inaudible] [inaudible] this area now has [inaudible] old structure, the value of education. They are enraged. They have been raised with a different way of thinking. The traditional family. So now they think in their own way, which is the way people down the block think. Okay, thats what soandso does so i can do that, too. Without limitations, which we know are there. They have to find out for themselves. Does that make sense . They have to find out for themselves, but i guess the support system and the old structure that used to give advice on how this way with it. I guess historically, if your greatgrandfather was a farmer and her grandfather was a farmer and your father was a farmer, you no. Thats been flushed away and now they are without a farm in trying to find themselves within this new society. A lot of them have migrated to the computer. Thats interesting angle of all those young black folks then, the backbone of the community is a doubleedged sword. Now they just come out if they dont see it or feel it but they will eventually. They may not not handle it, to your point. But is there argument, [inaudible] im going to become a millionaire, too. Im going to be the next jack dorsey. Its like a doubleedged sword, and i kind of they are just going for it and looking, life is tough. Someone slap because her females, as theyre gay, some a good slap because i like if thats really police in this tech committee, i can live with that personally. I agree with you. Kind of interesting discussion. To dovetail on that, look at and look at now seeing not that many, the Younger Generation focused on a black product like hey, lets just sit in. The you i guess, like rick, what is your opinion on as a message get diluted . It certainly does, but im a progressive and my politics. So its not just about getting rich, right . But but i also live in america d our society has skewed that way, which id no control over and certainly as a person of color i had no control over. The society can white folks majority, have decided whole bunch of people at the talking up whole lot of money. They somehow allowed that to happen. And im like wow. So thats bigger than me. So tying it back to your point, or your question, that im not going, i want you to get in, he successful in the game. Not in the black game but in the game. So no, we have an era. Its like theres the cotton club, there was, we had the cool school in jazz and then gave birth to blues, gospel gave birth into the blues gave birth to jazz which gave birth to rock n roll which then became someone, motown. Theres just this, okay, this is where to go. Its bigger than all of us but of what is to be in the game not sitting on the sidelines. That was my passion for tying it back to the book, please understand and so proud of malcolm, my former Business Partner three years ago, damn near accurate described it, that was the passion. We were like no, this is too big. Weve got to be here and weve got to be right in the middle of it and we got to make sure we know everything about everything we do and how much we are a part of this thing called america. We are, we are popculture. Whether you like it or not, you never say man, who gave you that . The blues . Who gave you that . Rock n roll, who gave you that . Take us out of any sport, really . So we have our value at many levels as a people. A lot of it is based on your individual achievement. We are not whether its athletic, singing, its the individual that comes out, like wow, who are we . I want to make sure that was on this new digital medium. I think we achieved it. This this is a good time to p up, and i will just say, i would probably say this anyway but i think black software is an amazing book. It was an amazing book for me to write, precisely because its filled with folks like david who did amazing things, whoever amazing perspective both about the time that they experienced and lived through that also reflecting back on that time, and really helping us understand a history that is simply not there. And in some ways not just not there, but a lot of folks asked me, it must have taken you years and years of painstaking research to find all the stuff. Yeah, it took a lot of work, t its not as if it was not there. That it was not in many ways easy to find, particularly when they go back to the 1960s and think about the ways that the computer revolution, the civil rights revolution were a head on collision and not two separate things that most of our history tells us about. So the great part of come for me of writing this book was moment after moment of being blown away by stuff that no one had ever told me that i never knew. Even in the round that i know stuff about. So its a great book. Buy it. By several copies if you like. Its christmas time. And to offer coming out. Appreciate it. And you again, david. [applause] [inaudible conversations] you you are watching a specil edition of booktv erin during the week while members of congress are in their districts due to the coronavirus pandemic. Tonight the presidency. Enjoy booktv now and over the weekend on cspan2. This weekend on booktv, saturday at 6 p. M. Eastern richard cordray, former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Its about consumers and the problems they face. Its about Consumer Finance and how its changed and its about new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the role and importance of the work that it engages in to protect people across america. Sunday at 12 30 p. M. Eastern, h. R. Mcmaster, former Trump Administration National Security adviser. The United States has a and of the free and open societies will do everything we can to protect ourselves against the efforts of the chinese, his party to subvert our freemarket economic systems and our democratic form of governance. And at 6 20 p. M. , ruth gilmore, author and State University of new york professor on mass incarceration in the u. S. The fact that most people leave prison do a little bit of analysis to see that we could be closing prisons already and jails already if we just cut by two weeks and three weeks and four weeks, much less years, the kind