Transcripts For CSPAN2 Abram Van Engen City On A Hill 20240713

Historical society. I would dont extend a special welcome to anyone who might be takenning a Virtual Program for the first time. Considering the side of the virtual crowd and the geographic spread im sure there are here for the fir time. Youre not familiar with us were the oldest Historical Society in the america. Funned in 1791 and have been an independent Nonprofit Institution defend indicated to collecting, preserving, publishing and sharing our states and nations history for the past 229 year. In these days of social distancing we are taking to hosting Virtual Event and we have Online Events planned for every week through june. We have a virtual tour of plymouth, massachusetts, this year i the 400th motorcycle of arrival of pilgrims so join us for that program. You can fine additional detail notices program on our website, mass history. Org. Today we eave a great from. Joined by abram van engen, aen so professor oft english at Washington University in st. Louis. He received his ma and ph. D from Northwestern University and his ba from kalin college. Published widely on literature, focusing on the 17th century puritan and the way theyre and remember rename in the American Culture. Youll he speaking but his new become, city on a hill a history of american exceptionalism. In normal author talks we offer poocks to sale but since were hosting Virtual Programs we are not doing that. He keen everyone to buy a copy of the book and have an agreement with the local book store to ship the book. Please considering buying a copy and supporting the pock store. Before we welcome professor van engle ill run for features of our zoom webinar. So, if you are interested in contacting us, this is some information for the massachusetts Historical Society. Its my name and Public Program coordinators and our website and way toes could contact us. Were a nobody profit so if you enjoy our work we would hope you would considering joining or supporting the organization with a donation. As Many Organizations are, we are collecting stories of peoples covid19 experiences. If you have a moment and are willing to share your time, wed encourage you to vicepresident our website and check out our covid19 experiences page. During this program there will be two ways for people to questions the first is to use the q a function at the bottom of the screen and you can click on that and tack in a question and we sill sift through them and present them. We have 200 so people signed on already so im not sure well get to every question that is asked but well do our best to answer as men as we can. If you want to ask the question in american theres a raised hand function and you can click on that. Well be alerted and we will try time per mying to allow few people to ask questions in person as welch once we click on you to a lou you ask your question youll possibly have town mute yourself. So without further adieu, please join me in welcoming our spending are this afternoon. Thank you all for doing here, is its lovely to give a talk and thank you for setting this up and thank you sarah as well. I appreciate you al joining me today. Before i want to say a couple of quick things first we are living in a world of unshorn hair so i appreciate your deep patience and understanding with that. Were also living in armed world of faulty Internet Connections and that has been known to afflict this house from time to time and if that happens today which i hope it doesnt but die appreciate your patience and please know i will be back. All right so what we are going do today just to begin. Or think of and answer yourself and ill circle back to this question at a little bit. Heres the question, what is the origin of america . When you think about where it begins with whom it begins, how do you start your story of america . Where do you start the story of going to circle back to that in a bit and well talk about why that question matters. But first were going to explain what we are going to do today. Live a fairly broad audience with this today summer fellow scott or jen scholars of history and literature some are interested in the topic its a very broad audience today. We are just going to talk about by what we mean by american exceptionalism. What it entails what the general history looks like why it matters and what it has to do with the purity or the sermon in which appeared but the governor named John Winthrop which says we should be a city on a hill let me share my screen will get started. Alright, so what is american exceptionalism. We are talking about that the general idea is we are identifying the United States he referred to as america as a nation that is different or distinct from or unique from all of the other nations on the world. Its usually superior to those other nations and also a sense of the role and relation, the consequences before that distinctive superiority for its relation to all the other nations in the world. Theres a few ways to think about this. First, and these have had different times in American History. One way to think is that the United States is a light to all of the nations in the world. This is very prominent following the american revolutions of the early years of early 1900s. Theres a strong feeling among prominent people that the United States at achieve something others nations would want to achieve it will be seeking to achieve. It was a feeling they would be the model than for other nations. Other nations would want to emulate what we had done. This is the concept of the United States is the model nation. So heres the concept thats passive will model or demonstrate something the rest of the nation can choose to emulate or not as they see fit. Theres another sense of american exceptionalism especially after world war ii there is described power, wealth, prosperity and prominence that happens after world war ii to get a much more active sense of american exceptionalism. Whatever blessings, prosperity, whatever weve got we think is great, it is our duty and responsibility to bring those things to other nations. This is the concept of the United States as a redeemer nation. The United States its our duty or responsibility to save the other nations of the world whether they have asked for it or not in a certain sense. And both of these concepts of american exceptionalism there is often, not always a religious sense entails it is the concept it is god in providence that set apart this nation to have these kinds of roles to have the distinctive features. And so this is the concept the United States as a chosen nation a model nation a redeemer nation a chosen nation. Her tongue but american exceptionalism one of these concept is always at play. There also two other elements behind american exceptionalism that are always aptly even if they do not become explicit. That is first and foremost exit comparative assessments are basically saying when you set apart the United States as distinct is that you have in a certain sense of looked at the other nations of the world but you know something about all the other nations of the world and therefore can claim that the United States is distinct. This is in a certain basic way, you are making a claim that you have knowledge about what all other nations of the world are alike in order to claim american exceptionalism. Theres a second element at stake and thats a historical claim. This is the part that interested me the most when i was writing the book. We make claims american exceptionalism almost always rewrite the story of america that explains the exceptionalism. We claim the United States is distinct, we claim it because of x, y, z history. It began here, it moved here, did this, it did that. At the historical story thats what sets it apart from other nations and gives it the particular role to play in human affairs. How that is a super crucial part of american exceptionalism here is what was given by the Republican Party in 2012. It was when romney was candidate. The party platform, one of the planks was american exceptionalism which they defined as the conviction that our country holds a unique place and role in human history. So we can see history is always at stake in the concept of american exceptionalism. What really interested me in writing this book, the book is largely about the writing of National History. How do we do that . Why do we do that . What is at stake when we do that wise hitter fraught concept and what are the various ways it has been done over time . I was also particularly interested since i am a scholar with 17th century what role the pilgrims in puritan have been given in the stories that have been written so thats what drew me to it this project to begin with. So that bring us back to the question of which we begin. Where and when does america begin . You can think of your own answers to this question the answers are coming in. Youre going to be telling the history of america you got to start the story somewhere. At some point in time youve got to begin the story it has to have a beginning. I open my class on american exceptionalism on this question. Ive done that multiple times purdy also set up a survey of 2000 people were we could track the answers with Demographic Data and Political Data and see how it all shakes out. A whole bunch of answers come in of course to this question of where and when america begins. Some of the standard answers you might expect the answers tend to congregate around certain answer so native american, the first people in america thats where american against. Or nancy let columbus of the european the first europeans in the americas, the story of america begins with the discovery of america. Sometimes you get an answer not as frequently, jamestown, virginia that the First Permanent settlement is the beginning of the story of america. Of course the mayflower the mayflower contracts, and then a declaration american revolution, constitution. So one of the things to see about the question as it doesnt really make sense what the question does it tells us what you mean by america. It gives us your sense of the definition of america itself. A lot is at stake in terms of that definition. A lot of my book is about stories and how we begin National Histories and why we begin certain places and not others. One of the things at stake is the question of identity. If you for example if you start the story of columbus with european discovery, what happens to native americans . How do they fit the story . How are they not part of the story before and suddenly become part of the story only when europeans arrived . How did they get woven into the narrative you are telling . Just as importantly, this is the part that drew me to it this question, the purpose. Over and over again we see what we will see is a certain origin of the stories given and the motive that started the people there is understood to be the motive that still drives and defines the nation now. So what purpose inspired america into it coming into being and how do i know, much later relate to that original purpose that then defines what america stands for. So whatever people came for is now we would stand for. This is a claim that is frequently made especially that first gets written in the 1800s. This returns to the question of the pilgrims in the puritan wire they such a prominent role in these origin stories . If you think about it, does not really make sense. So native americans make sense they are the first people in the americas. Columbus makes sense at the first european and american if you want to start there. Or you can start with the first english or permanent English Settlement. The pilgrims and puritans are not the first of anything, the not the first europeans, not the first english here, not the First Permanent English Settlement here. Theyre just not the first. So how come they get woven into origin stories about what america is and what it stands for. And here, the primary answer turns on purpose. We will see this again and again especially in the early 1800s that by turning the origin of america to the puritans, you could isolate a pure purpose. You could claim america was founded on a higher purpose. And then use that to define what america now stands for. You could make the claim, the claim is often made that pilgrims came for freedom so there fleeing religious persecution. They came for god not goals they came for selfgovernment is a story to get written about the pilgrims. We like freedom and religious freedom and selfgovernment these are good things. And so by making an argument that the pilgrims began these things we can say thats really the true story of america. What happens though at sets it back that Everything Else that happens in america. First of all you have to rewrite the pilgrims so it sticks. The puritans and pilgrims had their own slaves but that part did not get mentioned or the fact that the puritans were often made a lot of money off of shipping slaves to the south. These parts of the stories did not get mentioned to make the pure purpose were allows us to not start with these questions they came for gold they came for all the wrong reasons and they are not the true story of america. Also what happens is a south gets dismissed. So one person i study in the book ill return to him in the little bit. He plays an Important Role in making this famous. All he says about jamestown as it lacks coherence for which i could coherently begin. So what happens then slavery is not really part of the true story at america. If it starts with pilgrims then sought the true story of america will disappear the National History instead of another that isolates one purpose instead of another could elevate one history and put down another prayed thats part of what im tracking in this book. When does this begin to happen . Im surprised when begins to happen following the american revolution, you have this unique sort of problem think about this for a moment through the 13 colonies are all primary related to england. They dont necessarily have a great deal to do with one another pride the culture of virginia does not really have a lot to do with the culture and people of massachusetts. Suddenly they are bound together as one nation. How do you sort of elevate the sense of belonging together that is greater than your sense of belonging to your state . Its one thing to say you are from virginia its another thing to claim you are american that has anything to do with massachusetts. There is widespread recognition of this problem a lot of cultural work goes into creating a National Identity they can be salient for people that theyve got a nation prayed theres a lot of ways to approach this or understand it from going to isolate three here, three things that begin to happen. First people start making a ton of masks. Think about it if the picture of your homeland or country, or your political identity the borders of jura virginia what is it mean when you start unfurling maps, hanging maps in taverns and painting on teacups that show you in a country with the political boundary that includes massachusetts, georgia and Everything Else for the put maps all over the place so people can picture themselves as one people. The other thing that happens is a start to emphasize civics rites and rituals parts of the fourth of july becomes really important. It is the one holiday everybody in every colony can celebrate it. They can celebrate in their own ways but its a way of saying we belong together we are one National Identity we can practice in hers this identity together. On the other thing that happens the part of most interested is a start to write National History they dont have much Natural History yet. Finally got a nation for ten or 20 years what happens in the first National Histories as the writers begin reaching back to the colonial era and pick and choose what is the origin of this thing we now call the United States of america . Where does it really begin . How to be go back to that time of this people did not think of a nation the origins of this new nation that begins to explode especially in the 1820s, just gives you a little sense of thats in each decade from 1790 to 1830, historical work including it had a quarter or more of americas best sellers people reading history like mad if state laws state history and Public Schools first will you have new Public Schools second of all would they go to school to start inspiring the teaching of history in American History whats interesting about this to read and study the classics for the point is there supposed be gentlemen the way you become gentleman is reading and studying for the people go to Public Schools become good citizens the way to become a good citizen is read and study history. This is the way these get sorted out in the early 1800s. You also have then new schools, new students, new state laws requiring the teaching of history, for all of these reasons you have a booming textbook market. It begins to dominate. The thing about the textbooks its often the only way they get education for teachers come and go, students come and go, theres a lot going on. But if textbook is forever. They take these textbooks home they pass them around to the family, you can even see on the cover page of the textbook they are not just written for students are written as a reference for the entire family. And so these history textbooks become hugely important, weigh seven betting a cultural narrative. So heres a picture i love to talk about and teach. There is a woman name emma willard in the 1800s who is very important and really famous. She is a major proponent of womens education. She basically says look weve got to educate women to the same standards we educate men begot to take education seriously for everyone. She starts doing that herself, she has a really Important School today its called emma Willits School is in troy, new york. Her students stand out from the school and begin modeling that School Elsewhere so she starts a whole movement of women schools across the country even gets picked up be on the country places like columbia, other places including greece they build schools for women on the basis of the model. Shes a very famous woman in her own day. She becomes a household name though is because she starts writing textbooks. They sell immensely so she sold over a million textbooks during her lifetime which aint bad. The thing that made her textbook so important in different is that she thought of history as the thing that could best be learned if it was pictured. So she really starts the practice of writing drawing historical maps in order for people to learn the history of the United States. They did it all at once they could be kept in mind and remembered. So this tree is her history of the entire United States. Her history of america all in one picture. Each branch of the tree is meant to be a key turning point in American History. You can see as you go along here what turning points mattered to her and which do not. She starts the story of columbus discovery. Next she turns to gilberts patent which nobody talks about her knows about today she uses that to have the explanation of north american whats now the United States. And then notice the first basic settlement the becomes a turning point for her shes quite explicit about that in the book and get skipped entirely there is no turning point or branch theres not a key turning point for the beginning of slavery is not a key turning point in American History to left out of the tree. So the pilgrims become important for her as the mayflower compact that then paves the way for the constitution of the United States much later. This is the way in which she begins to unfold. Theres another guy at the time, George Bancroft that writes ten volumes and he becomes the most famous historian of the United States at the time. And today, still if you win the big prize in American History you in the bancroft prize thats name for the sky. He says the pilgrims showed the way to those who go to the wilderness for the purity of religion. Therefore the citizens of the United States should cherish the memory of those who founded the states on the basis of democratic liberty. Has Republican Freedom and National Independence pretty go so far to say the moment the pilgrims stepped foot on plymouth rock, freedom dawned and america. We had at that very moment, Democratic Institutions that would carry us forward ever since. You can see again founding purpose is tied to a present day. Because the pilgrims came to this thats what we stand for and the rest of American History can be set aside to elevate this particular kind of story. Its not hard to see then how all of this writing going on in the 1800s that we can move forward with that kind of story to get to the point for example Ronald Reagan and his last address to the public in 1989 this is his farewell address the very last thing he said to the public as president. And he says he has made his career on the basis of america being a shiny sitting on the hill. In making that claim, he kept turning back to John Winthrop. In his 1630 puritan sermon. He was an early pilgrim common early freedom man. So here he is purposefully combining them into one origin story. Again what we came for so we stand for. The question is do we still stand for . So the question is how stands the city on this winter night and it concludes shes still a beacon, still a magnet for those who must have freedom in all the pilgrims from loss places who are hurtling through the darkness towards home. The pilgrims establish us, they are the origin that defines us, our basic goal is to stay true to the purpose. That is the trajectory that reagan spells out in the sermon. What interested me about this is the history of that sermon is pretty mysterious and odd. And, by unfolding the particular dynamics of that history, of that particular sermon we could get at the larger way which american exceptionalism creates to help with the particular story of america. This is at the new york Historical Societys couple things to know about it is not in his handwriting, also not an handwriting of the sermon itself which is also not in his handwriting we have one copy of it that remains its written in the hand thats not winthrop since gotten additional cover page in an additional hand. We dont know when it was added to the sermon itself are the only thing you can see about the cover page is its kind of a mess. Youve got people writing over it adding in the lines and everywhere else you can tell its not added in 1630 dont give a sermon and then suddenly has a cover page describing John Winthrop in his passage with the Great Company of religious people of which christian tribes he was the brave leader. Its not a title page you would use in 1630 we dont know when this cover page was added to the sermon. We dont have the sermon in his own handwriting. This is the only thing that places a sermon on the Atlantic Ocean in the moment with ships coming over. So few other things about this sermon we should note. First of all, is never printed, published, noted in its own day basie and trent basically nobody paid any attention at all. The manuscript was completely unknown to anyone for over 200 years. It was first found and published in 1838. Even then, after they found the sermon after they publish the sermon nobody paid any attention to it nobody set with got the key text of American Literature they ignored it for another 100 years. And said oh thats kind of a long sermon, they set it aside. And finally they started to gain National Prominence in the 1940s. Thats when it begins to take off. You can check this in a number of ways. Here for example is the contents pages of American Literature you can have on the left 1961 its one of the most prominent such anthologies weve got in 1961 the sermon at that point had become decently well known. Period muller was a harvard scholar he spent the last years of his life sort of claiming the sermon was in fact the foundation of American Culture has a very intriguing story that i tell more of in the book. Were not going to get into that here. But he died in 1963 so the sermon is known as just not considered important is not even included in literature its just not a great text of American Literature. By 1979 the first text as chronologically out of place they put winthrop first they explain that to why they did this they say its the key text it basically explains the development of American Literature. 1961 ignored, neglected its the key text of American Literature but you can track this in other ways as well. Over the course of about five or six years i worked with a team of students to track every citation of city on a hill or city upon a hill, and google books from 1800 to the present day. You can talk about what this is being used for what its referred to you can see from this chart that the phrase basically is not referring to winthrop, or his sermon until about the 1940s and increasingly and increasingly it becomes the phrase of winthrop the foundational sermon of america. In another way to check this as well, so city on a hill is a phrase that jesus used its own sermon on the mount it is matthew five 14 explains it should a city upon the hill. And so through the 1800s, the primary reference is the church. It is understood to be the city on the help not necessarily a political entity. Not a city, not a country, et cetera. The main way this gets used is to describe the church or christians are followers of jesus apostles, disciples and so forth. Following world war ii we could see more and more frequently this begins to describe america or the United States for its actually got more charts elsewhere. You can show the way with the phrase that returns to the church was quite you can chart the way it was taken over by the nation so that the nation defined itself in the very phrase in the very term that used to define the church. So, this leads to the second part of my talk lets see how are doing here. Alright, why we have winthrop sermon at all . The simplest answer to that question is because of Historical Society that saved it, preserve it, printed it and somewhat promoted it. But then of course that raises the question of why do we have a Historical Society at all . So every answer i get i ask another question i guess. So heres the table of contents for my book. I want to focus here little bit at the end is this part. This idea of how we have the materials from which we begin to write American History or National History. What does into the collection of raw materials, records, manuscripts that then provides a basis for the tales of American History that we tell . So, as he mentioned at the beginning it was founded in 1791 it is the first of its kind in america. It the model begins a spread after that. The problem is, the founder of that he looked around and noticed papers and manuscripts were costly being lost, burned, plundered, whatever. These are all mentions of losses he makes when he found the mhs. All these events and everyone knew about them. The other thing that is guiding at this time is basically a powerful sense of american exceptionalism. Hes achieved what no one else has yet achieved but as a result all the nations of the world will be looking to america to want to know its history to emulate it for themselves. no matter how safe the house it will burn down. So his idea is we have to copy everything and distribute everything then when we lose one copy there will be another copy somewhere else. They join forces to became good friends writing a series of letters together the massachusetts Historical Society and they start the collections so they start printing a selection of what they have got to preserve it and bring it to the public so it can read its own history. In this series of collections winthrops servant first appears the first printing of that is in this collection at the massachusetts Historical Society. But thats not where its held its held at the new york Historical Society thats where the only copy was found but the new yorkers did not care they found it and looked at it but this is it our history. The new york Historical Society found those moments so with the dutch and the hudsons when they came across this 20 years later they thought it is boring but they said you want this sermon we will make a copy of it so thats how they ended up getting a hold of it that new yorkers did not think of it as important that the new york Historical Society i describe his colorful story in the book they built themselves on the model of the end i a chest. As the Historical Society increased rapidly you get the American Society and then in the 18 twenties to proliferate and measure them out so now if you walk around to various small towns now they have a Historical Society a collection of papers and preservation of the past. Its a Huge Movement in fact saved a great many papers from the past. Whats important to understand is as you go you make choices is not as though everything is saved and in particular when get saved is what you look to find it will be the papers and records you think of as important thats what will support the story you have of america this was the story of america the ancestors from persecution they were subjected to in england and then followed by others in the oppressed found relief so to preach and speak to the story again and again founded in liberty and American History and the records he wanted to preserve what explain how that works but the problem with the story is it doesnt work very well with native americans and then he we increasingly recognize this problem and the more he celebrated america as a progress of liberty the less tolerance he had for native americans at all he just thought they needed to disappear and go away so the story of america could continue. So what you see happening there is a reciprocal relationship with the National Archives and the National Story that guides the correction and then when people go to the archives , what they come out with is a replica that guided that to begin with. There is more than that but there is the intense reciprocal relationship. So what to do with native americans . Basically i talk how the ongoing presence of native americans then and now has represented american exceptionalism a difficult problem because often it does not begin with native americans but the arrival of the europeans meant to tell certain values which just dont work if you begin with a history of native americans. So here is how various people solve the problem basically they make native americans part of the wilderness setting from which it unfolds just like the trees they are here they are part of the blank slate for when the story begins when the europeans arrived. We can see that happening here and this is the first map called the introductory map and its an account of where the missions were and how they moved around and where they were located. What is interesting about this she called it the introductory map the next map in the series is called the first map any account of the arrival of europeans even though its not consider the first map in the story its setting the scene so the most famous book is called the forresters is an account of the American History in which he basically makes native americans part of the world in the wilderness and they are just the landscape which the story unfolds. Of course it takes later to recover the papers of native americans as part of the true american story. So the mohican convert to christianity traveled to england a voice of native americans and basically by the end of his life spent time mocking and dismissing this guy and never would have thought to collect the papers and check out later archive in the work of others to say his papers have to be preserved they are part of the story one way to think about historical societies they are institutions of loss like the swelling of voices in the sea of silence and what is selected is guided by certain choices on the other hand these institutions because of the work and proliferation of these archives all across america we have tons and tons of papers and records which do not necessarily lend themselves so just to give an illustration working at nhs said reading to the papers and letters there are all these books on the shelves written with the help of the resources of nhs and three books in particular were more prominently displayed all three of those were new accounts of native American Culture and history in england they all use those resources to tell the history. s you can see jeremy never would have imagined writing such books are collecting materials to write those books but yet that ability is because it was collected by him in the society that he started these work in dynamic and complex ways there is a lot of complex dynamics going on there not just here in villains but the work they do in multiple directions. This is what i want to end with. Why do we talk about these historical societies with one that would change the shape of rhetoric John Winthrop city on a hill of Christian Charity those that were formed for a powerful belief promoted a lost and forgotten text which then later enabled others to make that the very definition and origin of identity and purpose my book explains what the german mean meant, how it was lost and why it was found and rose to prominence after world war ii. This allows a much broader story of how and why americans have wrote a National History and so often begin with the pilgrims. This marks the 400th anniversary since the pilgrims landed implemented seems like the appropriate time what generations and generations and generations of americans have said for what role be has played the stories of a nation. Thank you very much. That is a very interesting talk if you are alive we would start clapping unfortunately we cannot do that virtually so now we will turn to questions. Recently some have a dichotomy of america as an idea with the older colonial antecedents. I think they have increasingly become a dichotomy i dont think they were thought of that in the early period as much but when they were thinking america was founded on a certain principle or purpose or idea he was thinking the white version of American History he did not struggle to dismiss the south he just did it. He didnt see the dichotomy there as much as we might now. I like to point out to people you can raise your hand or type a question was winthrop channeling the idea of america in his sermon. The whole first section of my book what was winthrops actual message what was he trying to get at . For a long time the idea was the sermon was establishing new england at the forefront of history, a model for others to follow then a revisionist moment where winthrop didnt want to be known by anyone and was seeking anonymity. Basically i do think he thought of the society was a common model that never singular or exceptional in fact is looking at other models to say we should be like them and a model among all other communities and the key to the sermon is to think of it as a community it is a very communitarian sermon and if we love each other well of course we are a model just like any other community. Thats the gist of the sermon. What was the reaction to his speech when he pulled native americans into the story cracks i was left hanging at the end of the chapter. There is a whole piece in their a very important intellectual in the early 18 hundreds how he rewrites the story of america entirely and they are no different than the spanish and those that are willing to slaughter native americans to get rich. Its hard to know the reaction to that story i know what the reaction was to his speech when he gave that in boston in 1836. I do know the views of new england were mixed at the time its not right to think everybody was in favor of indian removal. A lot of whites in new england who thought of that as atrociou atrocious. They were not necessarily antiracist but it was a complex view. I can imagine that being a applause and it disgruntled those in the audience. Can we dismiss the idea in the sermon one man who held those ideas alone . Or was he expressing the view shared . Thats a great question the longer we look at the sermon one of the reasons given for why there is no splash at the time is it just echoed what everyone else was saying. One explanation for why it never came to fame because basically winthrop is not that original when he gave the sermon and there was some great work by the new england quarterly a while ago the way the sermon echoed those we wouldve heard growing up i dont think its right to say its a singular person to dismiss. I think he echoes a lot of people its a commonplace sermon at the time. With the nationalistic history generated in the 19th century impact the progressive reform to aim power . Thats a great question. I do not know the specific answer. But i will punt on that by explaining what happens in my book i talk about the National Histories take place in the late 19th century one thing that emerges first of all you have reformers in the mid 19th century reaching back to the puritans for inspiration and there is a book that just came out last week a great book on the role of reimagining the puritans in the Abolitionist Movement and well worth another talk at the mhs but at the end of the 19th century it splits into different traditions one is for bringing freedom and democracy but also at that same moment this radical opposition tradition that says they came here for the principle of freedom but then oppressed everybody and basically the history of america is escaping from their grasp was interesting is that both basically say america is what it is because of the puritans either say it is because of virginia. But in many ways they are opposite. A couple of people have raised their hands. I will allow paul to speak can you hear us . Yes i can. Can you hear me . Excellent maybe this is a technical question that John Winthrop was a clergyman and was a politician and a lawyer the city on the hill addresses what we call as a sermon first of all since he wasnt a minister it wasnt really a sermon and number two if it wasnt a sermon does that mean they carried less weight with the people who were listening to it in 1630 and thats why its given less weight looking back at it now . Thats a great question he was a governor and a lawyer not a minister but they did have this thing that basically means those that are not ministers so there was a long practice of that and thats what i believe this to be a sermon by someone not a minister i argue a sermon this is where i get into my literature side, i love to think about the genre and the way it leads to others so it follows all the parts of a normal puritan sermon and structured exactly as such. It go stepbystep through all the parts actually the first t to, we begin with scripture you just cant make up doctrine it is missing. So what we have is a corrupt text theres a lot of ways we know it is corrupt but this is another way to follow all the genre expectations but doesnt start with scripture and that would happen if we lost the first page which is not unusual with manuscript transmission. I go over that in the book. Jenny has her hand up. Thank you for this great presentation that made me think about other things i am reading right now. I just finished the trials of Thomas Morton and he points out people like Daniel Hawthorne those in the early 19h century start to create narratives where the puritans are not the good guys. So can you talk about how the these literary narratives coming up that champion the alternative view of American History and the narrative by people like emma willard. Do they exist in separate streams and not talking to each other or riffing off each other . Yes. I get into that in my book what you see happening with an emphasis of literary writers which contrasts the emphasis of others so history begins to write it one way while folks like arthur on hawthorne write it another way so it begins to happen is you see a split between the pilgrims who are heroes of the puritans who are villains. In the 18 hundreds they can still be celebrated and say that they never had the ordained minister which saved them from being so awful the puritans were powerhungry so you see the split between the pilgrims as the good guys and the puritans has a bad guys and this is articulate why its called the pilgrim not appear to even if he was he doesnt want to associate his foundation of america with the puritan because they have negative associations by that time. And so to be quite conscious he was pilgrim ill just call him a pilgrim because that sounds better so theres way the stories get mixed and messed with to make the point people want to make. In your research did you come across references to america given the rise in the eighties to see there are connections between that phrase and popular films of the era. I encourage you. That would be great we studied the database that had so many temptations it was all we could do to not use that data unless it was a printed account of the film it didnt have the film references in them. Ever since i have had kids i stopped watching movies so my own knowledge of movies is limited at this point. But that would be interesting to see how it shows up in these films in the eighties and nineties. Hello. Great talk. Thank you so much its great to see you in this form. My sense of that sermon has always been and i type this up but i realize its phrased as a question when winthrop prefers and is very selfaware on his part to extract portions we are a company on this country professing it sells. In that perception of selfawareness and why that sermon rose to the top of the heap over the last 50 years. And everything that could go wrong that doesnt but one of the things he is very aware of so one of the points of the sermon is lets level with each other and not die thats a baseline message and if we start going after a selfish pursuit of profit this will not last so he is very aware of the company that they keep and the way that i write about it he is trying to create a community that he envisions so by saying that we profess ourselves and love each other hes trying to create a community of those who love each other so then to initiate what he is describing and that is part of the way that it makes itself accessible to be reused by others later as a foundational moment of history. We are conscious of peoples time thank you very much im glad to see your background is a picture of National Honor society. Absolutely. Sorry we couldnt get to everyones question. I encourage people to buy a copy of the book we are encouraging people to purchase it from the local bookstore and its just a few box on blocks from where he is currently standing. [laughter] also the massachusetts Historical Society we are able to bring programs like this to people so that during the current covid19 crisis but if you do have the ability to do so we show your support so i hope everyone will buy the book and up everybody has a great friday afternoon kings english bookshop and they vote to throw open the doors to the public as usual we believe it would risk our lives and those of employees and customers to do so. The bookscan reports book sales were up at 5 percent for the week ending may 2nd and abdominal Adult Fiction and childrens on fiction. And sales rep one. 4 percent but still down 9 percent for the year. And those that were forced to counsel the virtual experience with the largest book industry conference and to offer a series of online given its on events per call will be hosted on the Facebook Page and with the one party we will now provide Virtual Programs so the bronx for festival taking place online june 6 the Dallas Public Library has collected a series of recorded author talks that highlight authors the book festivals are available at the Library Website but the tv will bring new programs and publishing news and we can watch all the archived programs anytime at book tv. Org. The tv and prime time starts now the New York Times reporter chronicles his journey with the south asian culture in germany. But then to see all the names pop up. And so many people that we know and we decided