Of photos shes gonna put up so we can discuss what we are going over the book today. Speedily see if i can figure this out for us. This is just going to roll theres Nothing Specific it will just roll for us. Alright with the photos as we discussed this is a wonderful new book thats come out on april 21 something good for us to all read at this time. Just did a quick introduction doctor landdeck is a professor at Texas Womens University which coincidentally or not coincidentally is home of the archives. And this is a book thats very special for her and her shes going to talk about her journey to getting this book to publication. I want to start, something i am always fascinated by his how did you get started on this topic . When did you learn about it . Guest thats a great question and thanks so much for having me. And for talking meet today. I like to show this picture its silly, but this is that moment in time right met carol bailey bosco all of the aviation peaches who might beyond here no he flew one of the coolest planes ever. The biplane expo in bartlesville oklahoma in june of 1993 i went by myself i could not get any friends to go with me. Somebody pointed out the fact that curtis was in the shade of the hanger over there and i thought i will go say hello. He introduced me to it carol as the champion of the 1951 aerobatic championship in his plane. Then i found out she had also flew a b26 the world war ii part of never heard of her id never heard of any of them. So if ive never heard of them who else hasnt. None of my friends had i just decided that was wrong. These were incredible women who did a lot of great flying during world war ii. So i set myself on a mission that is taken 27 years to get here. We telling their story ever since. Host thats fantastic. A lot of our audience are interested in but spend very little good material out there so your book is a welcome addition to the resources on this. His incredible women have a impact on your career you said you spent 27 years now working on the story but has the passion influenced recruit otherwise . A number of things had the great advantage of spending a lot of time with them. A lot of the sources were lost after the war that had a chance to do oral history with them. Dicks been on a whole another path of training to graduate school to learn to do history the right way. That was at the university of tennessee. Learn how to do oral history, those types of things. The more i learned about these women i wanted to do good academic history and work which is why i went to graduate school and why i work so hard to get those sources right. I also wanted the public to know i wanted my friends to know really would shape the trajectory of scholarship towards public history so working with museums or working on documenting that type of thing giving airshows not just academic conferences so people of the world are not just a small subset. So knowing these women and their story has helped me try to find the balance between academics, history, and public history. And try to find a marriage between the two of them. Host i think youve really managed to do that one of the things i know the challenges, the principal stories and how this can lead to put those together with the historical records, in that vein, was there ever something, story you got that you had to cooperate the became very difficult . Is or anyone that stands out maybe even became a fun challenge for you . Guest thats a great question and thank you for your kind words about the balance there. There are so many stories i really tried to get that accuracy when you do World History this is the challenge because people are remembering something they did 50 years ago. One thing in particular that caught into the mainstream, has been sensationalized to prove whether there right or wrong, she died in camp davis she was one of the first of 38 women to die during the war. Start to hear it in 1990s when it was shot down, she was on target to shut down it was so awful they covered it up. Thats just not accurate. That is not true at all. I spent a lot of time, trying to figure out who is telling the stories and where they were coming from and people were telling me about this poor mabel who shot down. Started talking to the people who were actually there. I talked to the brother who is in the book, i talked to was in the air that day lois was in the air. I got there stories about it was a Training Mission they were all there. The plane had problems so it was one of those refine the official acts but if its a Conspiracy Theory youve got to go beyond that and talk to people who were actually there. That is one of the stories that gets touted a lot and people talk about a lot. Are they able to do a lot of Good Research . I was able to find the rule of three, three good sources to prove something less accurate. Maybe a new resource will come and prove me wrong, i really tried to get the accuracy because there are so many rumors tied to these women and their stories. Guest i think one of the rumors misunderstood by people is the back story the u. S. Army air forces and the women that led it, viewed as an experiment. Although i understand a lot themselves would not when it called themselves that way. What were the early years like . How did she get to the point is we know and love them today . Guest thats a great question. The wasp existed for two years from september 42 to december of 1944. Those are the dates they accept. The whole program started with womens auxiliary with nancy levin september 42, working for the division bringing experienced woman pilots in. At the same time, the Army Air Force realized 28 women was not enough to do this they wanted to do more. They started a track that would lead into they talked to the women training detachment. It is come out in the last couple of years they absolutely were not. We would train training when it graduated its very plain. The name of this Collaborative Group as they Work Together they do that to make the project work. The name changes in the summer of 1943, to the Women Air ForceService Pilots because the jobs they had expanded were initially they were just going to be fairy pilots. By the summer of 43 they realize the Army Air Force realized they had an opportunity for what else women could do. And so they expanded to towing targets initially out of camp davis in North Carolina doing all sorts of other jobs. They realized that squad name was no longer accurate. They expanded it to women Service Pilots which women who were Service Pilots in the Army Air Force have been x on their win for Service Pilots they were taking something that already existed and called the women Service Pilots. And then i think they added air force in there to make it a nice acronym. General arnold was all about the acronyms sounding rights. He did not with them to be wack, he wanted something that sounded nice im pretty sure he added that in, i have not found the document to prove it yet. That is where the name change came. It was all the same group, the cooperation and collaboration was there from the beginning. If you are going to say the dates it, youve got to say september 42 to december 44 to be accurate. Thanks for letting me clear that up. Steve on a think those are things very important to clear up and help us understand the story better you mention weeks thats the thing thats entitles women with silver wings can give us the back story . What is the significance of silver wings . Guest thanks for asking that. For part of the reason, the book is titled that is so many of the wasps i talk to talk about this didnt significance of the wings for them personally. This was an incredible achievement many of them equated the days they receive their wings after they graduated or when they were flying to getting married or having a baby. This was one of those moments of time in their lives it was so significant. Women almost did not have wings when the first group, the class 43w1 was graduating in houston, there were no wings for them. Some of the people on the ground decided that was wrong. These women had gone to the same training as the men they deserved wings they called Jackie Cochran who is at home and her husband answered one of the richest men in america, they said says girls dont have wings. They say get them some wings we will pay for it. So jackie and her husband paid for the wings for the first several classes until i got figured out. If you look theres all sources online were the wings are different until he gets the 1944 classes. The 1943 classes theyre all a little bit different if they go to different vendors they put different classes on them in Different Things that is what the pilots were. That ad hoc situation is indicative of summary things during the war. He mentioned several times of their uniforms are wearing mens uniforms you can see it in the photos they are clearly too large for these as part of what they had to work through at the time. Speaking of that, theres a photo now theyre sharing flight jackets. Over 350,000 women joints, but they never did get official military status. What was the reasoning behind that what transpired to prevent that . They were technically civilians and brought in civilians. Part of that was the urgency for which they are brought into the program a fall of 1942. They wanted the wasps they were sure how to do it that was kind of the idea they would see what women could do. Nobody thought could women actually do this . Could they really fly these planes . Thats what they called it an experiment to see if the girls could do it was kind of the attitude. And so they were brought in as civilians with the intention that we brought into the military properly. Then it became kind of a political challenge of how to do the paperwork. We bring them in under the Womens Army Corps . To be bring them in as the Service Pilots . Like they did the men. How do we do this differently. It ends up in the spring and summer of 1944 where they bring them in as a separate group. They bring it before congress in june of 1944 right after we go into normandy. The timing was horrible. The growing campaign against the women there group of male Flight Instructors there were been flying the military we didnt need as many they were deferred than they arent there seeing all these women flying airplanes. And they want to fly them instead. These men, talk to their congressmen, senators and said where these girls flying these planes when we should be . It gets wrapped up in the womens bill to become part of the military. Its wrapped up in this whole kind of this gendered challenge of do we really let women take mens jobs . The edge of the mix of the bill comes up in june of 44 would we have invaded normandy the debate goes on throughout and people thought we would be done the vote is made to not make them part of the military. It is a technical vote theres another vote that could come up in the senate that fall, but by september 44 we liberated paris, we were moving forward. The question is we need these women anymore . Women could have jobs of men wanted them. Women were releasing men for other duties but then they thought the women were replacing them and that was not socially acceptable. By the end of the world war rosie the river gets kicked out because men are coming home from overseas. So the women are gonna lose their jobs. Because theyre in the way and thats a big part of it. That was a long answer. Et cetera ending for group of women who did incredible things. Its almost hard to one of the women the things the women did file the stunt flying was it ten days ive never heard about but their skills as could be put into question. They said over ten days to stay the course but thats the culture or mentality. Did any of the women ever talk to you if they desire to go into combat postwar interviews 200 bring that up . Speech i think thats a good question when they look at that at the oral histories would be 50 years after the war and their letters and diaries they wrote about at the time. To see where they stayed consistent there. A number of the woman would have done whatever the country needed there very much for the war effort, so the husbands or brothers, they wanted to do their part to replace those men who were lost. Or to bring those men home. So they would have done whatever was asked of them im quite certain of that. That tone is in the letters when i interviewed them later i couldnt have done combat it could not of done the things that needed to be done, physically could have done it but emotionally didnt think they could she could fly the airplane none of them expected to be taken in to combat but he think most of them were ready to do it if they needed to do it there brave and unique group of women when you write about them and their stories they did some very Dangerous Things like towing targets for aerial gunnery scares me im going to go up and intentionally let them and shoot at me. He mentioned the controversy whether one was shot down. Or many wasps lost in the years of service . Guest thirtyeight women were killed during the world none were shot down i want to say that definitively none were shot down. They did the towing the plane did get shot. They didnt lead enough and things like that but none were shot down. But the ones that died it was in a variety of accidents. The plane was just worn out specially 1943 we dont have any new planes and the new planes are going where the men in combat. Those of the different training bases are sometimes a lot of word out planes. The gym with the kid to repair them you have a lot of malfunctions that took some of the women. Somewhere in training accidents, they had instructors on board or something just went wrong they stalled just as they had accidents domestically as well. Its comparable to men doing the same jobs the early studies of the wasps were they any good . They were cool, but were they in a good as pilots . Kind of wanted to get beyond the hype. They were, the work they did was comparable or better the mentoring the same jobs. So sadly 38 were lost but they did their jobs. Stay when you talked about their talents and recent had an article, her saga it turns into 30 days if you havent read it i recommend you visit the website and read it. So shes given appear 51 that shes never flown to take it across the country and she managed to do it. You and all of these capabilities of these women and how they could adapt and part of it was because they wanted to prove themselves and try to harden work so hard to do that. Talk about she delivers p47 was the 10001 thought is really interesting how she left a note in the flight log she was the pilot had received the plane and her address. A lot of wasps did that they would get letters back from the pilots receive their planes did any of these deployments become significant . Is it some and they talked about much after the years . Or did you happen to find letters . Guest a number of them did especially the pilots who are ferrying the planes anew theyre going to go overseas. They would write little notes once iran get little notes back. I dont know of any that turned into great romances or anything like that. If anyones out there and knows one of those stories please let me know. I would love to hear about it. I think it meant a lot to both the men and the ferry pilots to have that communication and what happened next. Host is stephanie with his needle inside stories. We faced a lot of challenges but was there a particular challenge the women faced that came above all other challenges that they met during the war . Or maybe postwar . Guest i think during the war they face the challenges knowing they were doing the right thing. Some of them had family, they all had at least one Family Member who supported them a mother, father, husband and some cases. But society did not respect women who served in the military very well. That was a challenge of being respected when you did your part for the war effort. When they were in the seat of military they were in training they got demerits, they got confined to base, the eight at the Officers Club when they got out, they did all of these things. They were saluted. But they had no military rank paired with a 38 women were killed their families got a 250dollar military benefit. So that balance between the two is a big part of it. In the summer of 44 when they are disbanded, the war was still ongoing. It was the middle of the battle of the bulge when they are cut free. This was very difficult for a lot of them, they were embarrassed, ashamed, confused, and so when the war ends and everybody comes home its a big party. But halfway through the war you are released and talk about whats not important that was really difficult for them to figure out what to do next. A lot of them felt guilty. That all of this training and the government had spent a lot of money for those to qualify for these planes and they had nothing to do with it now. So they tried to fly for china, they try to go to china to fly, they tried to go to brazil, the brazilians are very open to them coming to fly for them if they brought their own plane, preferably a c47. That did not work out for many of them. Theres a lot of good challenges. Host the image receive right now brings us to i think a good point for us to lead into the end of our discussion , the fight for these women to get recognition, the veteran status and these challenges have been ongoing for recent years. Can you tells a little bit about what spurred this drive and how they were successful with that . Guest there technically civilians but by the 1970s, you got the Womens Movement, the civil rights movement, you are also starting in the early 1970s have the arm deferred forces saying youre going to let the First Time Ever american women fly a military plane. It was not a conspiracy their stuff was not closed or hidden away. They were just forgotten which i think is worse than anything else. So they determined to fix that and it was a huge effort. Teresa started the 1960s with the fights. The rest of the wasps got it into the 1970s, several years of them the petition signed in the image they had women who were sitting outside of the fancy new movie called star wars and getting people signatures and things like that. The finally recognized as veterans. In 1977. The way the bill was written it goes into this strange veterans for the purposes of the veterans administration. The women did not get the g. I. Bill, they didnt get any of those things. But they were allowed to go to veterans hospitals they were allowed to put a flag on their coffin. That was really important to them and their families to do that. And then you can see they got the congressional gold medal finally was awarded in 2010. That was a great deal of fun. They had a fun time. [laughter] host i know one of the later battles was something i remember reading about in the news recently is to be able to be buried in Arlington National cemetery i believe you had some involvement in that . Youre supporting them . Yes Elaine Harmon she is just over president obama shoulder, Elaine Harmon had always accepted in several wasps had been there in the past. When she died her family was told wasps for no longer allowed because the way the bill is written, they were veterans for the purpose of the veterans administration. And that went to Arlington National cemetery its getting crowded and people are worried about overflowing. So they said no. Elaine, who was a dear friend she was actually my first oral history and she was very smart and kind. She has a very stubborn and smart family who is just fabulous. They decided thats not going to work for us. They worked very hard with others to get that changed. So i worked with the office in writing the bill. Working through the different language that they needed to used to make it accurate. That was a great privilege and then i got to be in arlington when elaine was put to rest. That was a great privilege to be part of the story and play just a little part to get that recognition. Host and muchdeserved. Starting to get some audience questions. The first one kathy wants to know could you speak to the personal traits of the women . Guest thats great. These women i feel very fortunate i got to know so many of them over the years. Several years ago one of the kids, Nancy Parrish put together an interview where she interviewed the kids tell me about your mother and then she put it all together for so one of the reunions. They all said it was so funny they all said oh well shes sang for this and that and shes independent. Shes independent and shes independent and stubborn, independent and stubborn with her for two most common words. I would argue stubborn and a good way. Once i decide to do so than the going to do it and they are very independent. They dont care so much they care what other people think but if you tell them no and they think they can do something they are going to do it that is definitely the most common trait is independence. Its also very intelligent and very athletic, very fit group of women as well. Smart, intelligent, stubborn women. I think of just speaking with you the word stubborn has come up when your time by the efforts. Next stubborn and a good way. In a way that brings about success. So megan wants to know is any of your Research Practice on similarities and differences between the wasps at the night which is . Guest thats a great question that night which is where the soviet women pilots. The soviets were in such a different place than the americans world during world war ii we were not being invaded, cities were under siege. And so our women did not need to do the same work, the wasp has Great Respect for those russian women pilots. Several of the women actually the early 1990s when the soviet union opened up actually went to russia and met with a number of the pilots its a great book by one of the wasps come i cant remember the name of it off the top of my head. She interviewed a number of the russian women and put it together and a book. The respect is therefore sure. The soviet women of course flew in combat they didnt know about them that could have been us if we had to do it i do look at that a lot it is not in the book. Its a really Fascinating Group of women for sure who did a lot of very serious work. See when they were. Let see john once to know where their navy wasps . One of the women, betty gilley, her husband worked for them and she actually some of her friends and testifying of their planes but there is no official women doing that. There were women who flew on some navy planes. But they were not pilots in that sense. Of course the navy leads the way later in the 1970s with women pilots. That is kind of an interesting next story. During the war, there were not women pilots in the navy. Host and is another question from chicago the u. S. Had 1100 aviators in world war ii, any number how many the brother not United Kingdom . In england you have air transport and you have several hundred women who flew at the air transport exhilarate you of several american women who fly with the air transport auxiliary and of well over 200 women who are part of that airport exhilarate. It is a support for the Royal Air Force rather than flying in combat or things like that. The ata was very important and that they would move planes from base to base or do repairs that needed to be done they end up flying across the channel a linda frantz. Sue but as discussed could you discuss major role. She was the first female thunderbird pilot. Later on she actually came to the 2008 wasp reunion. She came and was our banquet speaker was the last official wasp reunion and i was honored to be the chair of that reunion. She came and gave a talk. A couple of the kids started talking with her i think they need a congressional gold medal dont you . And she was stricken by the idea and i believe was a white house fellow at the time. Worked her magic and worked very hard was a huge player in making that congressional gold medal happen for those women. You could still fight the goldmedal ceremonies on cspan and theres a big part of the ceremonies as well. Shes terrific. See what no doubt they were an inspiration for her. Marjorie is asking an archives at cw what kinds do you have . Guest im glad you asked about that. The wasp archives at Texas University are really never ending. I started using those archives and 96, 1996 it just started there is one collection of boxes. Today it goes on for thousands of boxes worth of material. They have everything they had research that i need with its oral history saved in over the year, the letters official documents, pictures that they have donated, people have donated but then they do they have uniforms, banners and shoes and purses and bags, trunks and anything you need. One of the things they do because they are in archive, as they loaned materials out to libraries or to museums a few are a museum and want to have an exhibit about the wasps, you contact them they will loan you the materials when youre done with them you send it back. So they take great care of the materials of the wasp story. As well as other women they hold the women military aviators archives, they just have so much. It really is if youre interested in doing more research about the wasp thats the place to go they have everything you could ever want. I think that is fantastic that so much has been gathered in one place because often the challenge is where things end up its really wonderful im sure it has made you very happy over the years to have so much. I live seven minutes of the archives it was really incredible parts back i think its really with the last question and its one we all went to know or any of the wasps still with us . Yes they are weve got about 32 i think that are left. When 2,501,830 went through training 1102 werther silver wings were down to 32 of course they are all over 95 now. Its one of those the Pretty Amazing women. Some went alright one more question commit we dont want to miss. In your research did you ever come across. [inaudible] shortly after flying home from vietnam started helicopter cfi course using a much smaller helicopter the first day as introduced to a little old lady about 60 years old who i first believed would not be able to teach me, 22yearold recent comment that anything come to find out the person asked them a question and come to find out she was eight wasp. She wants to know if youre familiar with loretta. Guest i know of her i did not have a chance to meet her in person. This is a similar story that i have heard from a lot of people where they go into airfields like who is this old lady trying to teach me something . And then they learn. Because a lot of the wasps after the war wanted to keep flying and they went right after the war and some came back to it in the 1970s after the kids were grown. Its always fun to meet one of the Flight Instructor kids down the road they certainly taught them in a special way. I can only imagine getting to learn from one of those ladies. So the final question for the day from joyce, why do you think it took so long for wasps and others to game status and benefits . Guest thats a great question. The wasp try immediately after the war, after the war ended, there was a lot of pushback because the economy was not great in 1945 in 1946. They will bring about the cold war and all of those things. One of the wasps, did candidate was in that plane. Caddie landry talk to me about this a lot she thought they never wouldve gotten their benefits without the changes that brought, just the example that movement showed. The Womens Movement was part of that as well. I think part of that too for the wasps themselves, one of the things i thought i understood but as ive gotten older i understand even more by the time theyre fighting for their recognition in the 1970s, they are in their late 40s and they are in their 50s and their kids are grown and they got more time and theyve got perspective that they have been forgotten they wanted those 38 women who died to be remembered. The biggest collars what what about those 38 . They knew they werent going to get anything they wanted that flag on their coffin they wanted to not be forgotten where that timing in their personal life, their personal ages, is partly what took that long. Those of assuming with kids things that are right you are busy. But then they were at that kind of nostalgic age of their 50s. All of those things come together and make it happen when it happened. Still want to think your wonderful book is going to add to that. I want to ride all the audience watching you can go to the Museum Online store, order the book, and i want to thank you so much, doctor landdeck for being here hoping to have you on campus later this is a wonderful experience we hope to have you back into everyone who has been watching, thank you for your questions and thank you for joining us today. I just want to remind everyone this will be live on youtube later. You miss something you can check it out thanks everybody have a great day. Cspan is unfiltered congress the white house the Supreme Court and policy events from the impeachment process and now the federal response to the coronavirus. You can watch all his cspan Public Affair programming on television, online, or listen on the free radio app. P part of the National Conversation to the Washington Journal Program or through our social media feeds. Cspan created by americas Cable Television company as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. This week on the communicators we want to introduce you to luther x Senior Vice President for Public Policy for a site called yelp. Mr. Lowe, exactly what is yelp and what you do . Thank you so much for having me on today, peter. A