We can send it off to that person. Another way to support p and p is by using the donate button at the bottom of your screen. Any contribution that you can make so we can continue our programming is so valued. Ask a question by clicking on ask a question that can be found near the bottom of your screen. You can even vote for the ones youd like to hear answered the most. If you have any tech issues sometimes it happens we recommend first refreshing your browser and switch over to chrome if you need to and three, try headphones. It helps. Tonight we are here to talk about economic inequality in times of crisis or the only thing that matters right now. And no one in the world expressed to power like Barbara Ehrenreich. Weve witnessed her refusal to accept easy answers and throughout her expensive career of investigation. Her determination to impart social change and economic reason is distilled and had i known, the new collected essays. Jia tolentino has become an essential processor for all of us through her work in the new yorker and her collection here. During the covid crisis work has taken on a more active voice culminating in a piece on mutual aid in this weeks new yorker. Both these women are required reading for any informed citizen. Please help me welcome Barbara Ehrenreich and Jia Tolentino to p and p lies. Hi everyone, all these people listening. Its incredible. More than it would be in the book store. More than wecould ever pull live. Its funny , we were just sayingbefore they went live. If any of you guys have a copy of had i known i recommend it asa commentor just wrote. And all of the things that were all speaking aboutright now , like how absolutely ridiculous it is that billionaires that are frontline workers are making minimum wage, all these things. Barbara has been writing about these things for decades and it was a delight to interview her. I interviewed her in the before times it feels like before times. And its good to be able to talk now area i think for you and me are both alittle bit biased. I mean, our brains naturally go to the fact that the story of consciousness, the story of labor, this is a single story of our country. I think we both are inclined to think that way but to me, i wanted to ask you do you feel like, how much do you feel like class consciousness has changed, has been at the forefrontduring the last couple of months . Not enough. I think its unavoidable. And if you cant avoid the fact that the stimulus package is aimed toward the bigcorporations and the wealthy. So how people are absorbing this and beginning to try to act on it, thats the story. Which you did a great job of. In this weeks new yorker. On mutual aid associations that are forming. Springing up spontaneously around the country. Just helping with the most basic things like groceries and getting people to the doctor, stuff like that. And i just love that piece. By the new yorker or i dont know. Whatever you do to readthese days. Theres so many ways in which the actual legislative the gaucher coefficient of who is getting help is an obvious nightmare. Thats what i mean. I dont know if my perspective is swayed through having speaking to organizers for the last couple of months but it seems to me like so many of these Mutual Aid Networks are spring at because of the suddenly or increasingly very mainstream understanding that, like, the state is not doing its job. Like legislators are not doing their job. Like these mutual aid is the sort of recognizing factor in disadvantaged communities and now its amazing to me how mainstream this idea is were basically living in a failed state. I find that very heartening but you think if not representative or something . Your article . No, no, no. Like do you think like this sort of realization, i mean yeah, theres something there is no government. No government when it comes to the use of arms and prisons and things like that. We dont have a welfare state. Right. So were completely unprepared for people losing jobs en masse. When looking at 30 unemploymen unemployment, is the estimate now, right . I cant even imagine that. I was not allowed during the not alive during the Great Depression but i but i have plf stories, and this is much more unemployment than that. And, of course, we dont have fdr as president. Right. Dont even get me started on so no, its hard to particularly hard to judge things about class consciousness when we cannot congregate, when we cannot see people in larger numbers. Right. A lot of my own history as an activist has been, involved crowds. And linking arms come marching down streets together, and hugging and all kinds of things that are now not advised. So its hard to see, and one of my favorite organizer friends called me and said, how do we organize now . People need to get together. People need to make bonds. You know, whether its a mutul aid society or an action to put pressure on elected officials, whatever. Yeah. You have been on the front lines talking to people. Well, i think that, ive bn thinking a lot about how radicalizing moments beget radicalizing moments. And to do think like we have seen, and again i keep trying to fight against this sort of, im always looking for clients consciousness some tried to fight it, but there are certain things, like there are certain aspects of the strikes going on right now that are reminiscent of the 30s, right . Like that are transit workers and hospital workers and warehouse workers, and there is still this theres this rising discontent to say we cant acknowledge it in sort of in each others presence and its the sort of confounding i hate the word unprecedented so overused right now but there are certain things, for example, the fact were staring down 30 unemployment, may be higher. To me its like how does anyone come out of this and still think Health Insurance should be tied to employment . To me it seems impossible for anyone to come out of this thinking we shouldnt have universal healthcare but them also like are you being stupid again . Like what you think about that . Yeah, we have a bright side here is that things we are learning. We are going to have to have the government. Now, im not a statist. I sort of a lean more and artistically and artisticall artistically, but this is one, when you realize that nobody is going to come to your aid, that nothing is happening, thats when you say we have to do this, and thats we get to the beginning of people as a world. It was interesting to me to confront my own leanings because i guess the people are listening is like theres this fundamental tension it would always work the people are not doing for each other like barbara singh, getting groceries, making sure that access to pharmacy trips a whatever. Theres this question of other doing with the state ought to be responsible for or what the state has never done for many people at establishment and interest in doing. I tend towards the statist point of view but in my peace i was much more like david this is like a political imagination on my part. So in terms of, as a Going Company is saying, this was deeply informative book in terms of many of us developing a consciousness of inequality and like economic oppression. To me we talked, when we talked when i was interviewing you for the new yorker we talked have the media fails at showing any sort of workingclass life which is why store the Economic Hardship reporting project which is one of my favorite things going. If anybody listening is an familiar, its like many of my favorite stories every year are funded by ehrp. I feel that an economic inequality has been pretty for bounded by the media in this. Surely not like spinach what, foregrounded . Yeah, kind of. I think people are still will always talk about we are all in this together unlike the virus is a great equalizer when very obviously it is not when black people are three times as likely to someone who has died a whatever statistic figures. In new york i think threequarters of the frontline workers are low income people of color. The fact so many of these locally healthcare jobs are held by women. To me these facts have been pretty clear in Media Coverage and is wondering what you think about that . How do you think the media has done in reporting about inequality . Not so bad. I mean, im thinking, seriously, mainstream, fake news, et cetera. But i think that the New York Times and the post have been pretty good at constantly bringing this up. Yeah. And thats something. Now are there any examples that spring to mind that you thought were, like well, i just think the times coverage in general has been pretty good. But you are a better judge of these things. You are at the front lines of journalism. I mean, listen, im in my bedroom. Like nta do is add by the nta conductor, incredible oped that was exposing just how hideously like the transit workers have been treated. It got a lot of exposure, the fact that there was that really great piece on healthcare workers, including the lower paid, like transporters and Environmental Services people, like the people, not like the doctors and nurses necessary but the people but ive also wondering to what degree these narratives are reaching people that are not already aware of, right . Well, we keep trying in our different ways. I feel very, very frustrated that i cannot talk directly to large numbers of people. Its not that im a show off or want to be the center of attention, but just to feel i dont feel a sense of platform and the sense of people interacting with me enough right now. Yeah, and youre a green, and you are much more out there right now than i am. Well, i think youre right. I mean, theres a way in which just the deep frustration. Like you think about those lines of people voting in wisconsin or the people in South Carolina protesting the risk together for you will support purposes is devastating for the kind of organizing you want to see right now but at the same time, lets talk about amazon organizing. I know your exhusband has been involved with organizing amazon workers and we talked about in her india. Early on the amazon workers in new york i think one of the earliest people to strike because someone at the facility contracted coronavirus and then amazon retaliated. You have seen this whole wave of companies retaliating against like nurses have spoken out against the condition. I thought of your optimism book. Like nyu lane go put at this internal communication that was like, please only put positive statements about the hospital on the social media. Oh, god, yeah. Like amazon its been one of the prominent, it has really tried to stamp down on the worker organizing as it has for a long time but it has gotten called out for. The attorney general is probably going to investigate. Talk to me about what is going on at amazon right now. Well, i cant really tell you as an insider or anything, but i think whats happening is kind of amazing in that its nationwide. Its entirely done by cell phone and online. Right. And its attracting a very interesting diverse mix of workers, which amazon has. People of all ages and skin colors and Different National backgrounds and everything. And its amazing that they just, they get along. You know, that they are very excited and they are moving from place to place building on the success in other spots. Because yes, i mean, amazons response to the promise or threat of reopening has been to cut pay. They were paying 17 an hour for new workers, and now that was two dollars more than, as of mat looking this up. The 17 an hour was being rolled back . Yeah. Like the heroes pay lasts for 30 days. Its like these companies. Thats what i sense is going on in general, as people think about gearing up to going back to work, possibly opening a factory gates again. The companies are thinking, hey, we are doing them a a favor. We are quote giving them jobs. Jobs that they already had. I hate that language, giving people jobs. People give you their labor and you get right. Theres this pushback now coming from the ceos saying, you know, we have suffered a lot. We have suffered a lot during this crisis. We have seen our stocks go up and down, crazy ways and so on. Now we need to be rewarded, and so the workers have to take a hit. Right. One of the things they are fighting about at amazon is getting paid for some paid sick days. Right. Nobody seems to have paid six days sick days anymore. These are basic things weve been talking about for everyone. Right. I mean, to me its just like i dont know if i am just delusional but its the fact like the glaringly obvious sort of blaring siren in the back of my head all the time, which is like america is the richest country in the world and we protect very has the least staging that of any i mean, it seems like how could anyone, out of this opposing mandatory sick leave for everyone, not Just Companies but then all the things we dont have. Right. And then you think about election and then you just want to, i mean, yeah. I cant even think about that. What has made you the maddest . When we are just sitting, like, what has infuriated you most about, i dont know, like the last couple of months . Oh, lots of things, unfortunately. Yeah, me too. I think the attack on the workingclass thats going on now in the united states, as a whole, infuriates me. Its taking people, you know, have them underpaid and abused during their work lives for a long, long time and kicking them while theyre down. I mean, what more can you do then die for your employer . And that seems to be the new deal. You want a job . Be prepared to die. I dont know where to start with this anger. How do we do this constructively . Yeah. And i think to me when i think about that one of the things i think about is, like, one of the things i worry is that people, you know, people all receive low wage workers as expendable. Like theres always such, theres this tendency on the part of the wealthy to dismiss poor people as deserving of the status, write . If you make 12 an hour, thats because of some sort of like moral failing to be unable to make more. Whereas, to me it seems clear than ever that everything is arbitrary, so arbitrary that i have a job, that i can work at home, of the people cant. It is absolute nothing to do with work and everything to do with accident. One thing i worry about is this will sort of cement that implicit understanding that people who work come who have to deliver packages and check at grocery stores, thats like their job, like thats what they do and if you dont have to do it, its for a reason rather than for no reason at all really. Thats the thing that fills me with a lot of dread, but i also think he may be at the same time they have got to be people for whom it is becoming much clearer that no one should have to risk their lives for 13 an hour. Yeah. I dont know whats going on with the consciousness of so many of our lawmakers. It were looking at Something Like 30 unemployment by july, that is worse than the Great Depression. This is beyond our imaginings. We have no welfare state with no place, no way of taking care of these people medically. What are we thinking . You know, i worry because im always a little bit apocalyptically inclined. I cant help it. Things to read, apocalyptic novels and so on. And here it is. Its right in front of us, and we have to get that mutual aid, philosophy that you write about in the new yorker this week, turn it into like a general class consciousness. I dont mean to be, to exclude too many people when i say last consciousness. I think there are people now who are going to see very hard times who never imagined that come in the lives. But it was clear for me. As soon as they start saying that some people could work at home, that was the clue. Right. Because who was going to work at home . The fedex delivery guy . No. People like you and i. Right. We get to work at home. Yeah, even like the racial disparities. I think like a pretty Strong Majority of asians and white people can work at home and for black people and to spend people, yeah, one people, the think it is maybe the maddest thats not the sort of macro thing were talking about, have you seen the stuff where obviously meatpacking plants, right . This this is a job that is mosty done by immigrants. Its sort of farm working conditions where you are necessarily kind of unsafe. You have to be close together. Did you see there was the governor of south dakota saying that the outbreak among meatpacking employees was not all people are equal. Like different social things that immigrants do. Im like you, oh, is that why . Even i think alex azar, the secretary, he said Something Like that, too. So thats what youre saying when you said the sort of, its like this idea that like our legislators are implicitly blaming the lower class for the things that have been, for the boot that is been placed on their neck. Its ridiculous. Thats been a theme on the right for so long. If you are poor or if youre hardpressed economically, it must be because you are doing something wrong. Right. You are not living right. You are having too many babies. Right. You know, you are an addict, whatever. All the old ways of shaming the poor which make the affluent feel very good, because you can say, hey, i have done everything right. I got an education. I did it right. But thats all about to change. If i i looked even two weeks io the future, im scared. If people are shooting at each other over getting into a mcdonalds dining room, if theyre shooting at each other because they are told to socially distance in an adult Family Dollar store, what next . I mean, we have an armed population, at least the right wing is armed. And people are angry. Nobody is saying where or how to direct that anger. Well, we are but yeah. Yeah, i mean, i grew up in texas and my mom works in the Hospital System of there, and as the state reopens, to me its like you dont want to dismiss the portion of people who want to reopen the economy that need money, but there is this like to me just the fact that you cant, as soon as the states started passing to reopen, so heres a way to cut up unemployment. The cutoff having to pay unemployment to people. You think about people like Service Workers and nail salon workers, like they will have to go back to work. They wont make any money because nobody coming in and they can get an appointment and its just, like thats the fix or whatever. Whats next . Right. Asked when you pick up a a brick, you know . Right. Maybe we pick up a brick in a good way. Im starting to feel like that, too. Yeah. You know, there are traditions of mutual aid. You mentioned the history somewhat in your article, but i just wanted to throw in here somewhere that the feminist movement was quite a tradition of selfhelp and mutual aid. Like around healthcare, exploiting our own clinics, teaching women how to do their own pelvic exams. Just saying, you know, if these doctors are going to remain so sexist, so racist, then we are going to do this for ourselves. We need that spirit more, that we can do things. I feel the same way about reproductive rights. Yes. Its easy enough to abort a tiny fetus, but you know, why are we not just saying we can take this into our own hands . Yeah. I have thought about abortion a lot lately. Im its interesting come for some women, for a lot of women for low income women trying to get an abortion always involves these like layers and layers of logistical obstacles. Many people are now just understand for the first time like its very hard to leave my house, very hard to get childcare. I suddenly dont have money to pay for it. I have to travel. The travel is typical. Theres a way for a lot of women this is always what its been like to get an abortion and ive been interested in, talk to people, and speaking of exactly what youre saying. I talked to a woman who had to fly from texas to colorado just to get the Abortion Pill at like seven weeks. It was like she should be able to do telemedicine and get in the mail. Its extremely safe. Just things like that, but with that also ive been a kurds, the feminist roots of direct aid to each other and direct support where the state wont do it. Its nice to see those networks are nationwide and they are alive and prepping for the repeal of roe v. Wade in doing the work. In black communities and trans communities, mutual aid is like the bedrock of human interaction, right . Im remembering, like a so many parts in that book, people youre working with at the diner, some get kicked out of their temporary housing, like they would be welcomed in like a coworkers home, right . And mutual support to build on among workingclass and low income people. It shows statistically people who are poor or much more philanthropic are much more willing to take in a process in place to sleep. All those kinds of things. Thats what we have to build on, that impulse in people to come together in our time. I think im going we have like 20 minutes left in a think i will pull up some of these questions. Okay, last time i did this i didnt realize the questions sorted by like how many people voted for the and i thought there were chronological. I will start by the votes, the ones at a cut in the most votes. Okay. This population is sort of what weve been talking about. Do you both think the pandemic would change American Attitudes towards the idea of the modern welfare state . Well is synonymous with intelligence. Thats one of the many myths. Which one are you reading . Are we reading different questions . Im not reading anything. What are you reading . Okay. So do you think the pandemic will change American Attitudes towards of the welfare state . The Democratic Party has been pushed left, not new as far left as it should be but i do think it will also im like maybe im an idiot and have no idea about anything. Like i dont think its a good idea to make any kind of predictions. Right. I can only say im trying. The next are you asking with the pandemic change attitudes towards the welfare state . Thats what the top question is. Yeah. Yes. I mean, i think maybe we should take anything pejorative away from the world welfare right now. Shouldve been done years and years ago. And say yes, there are people who, especially low income women of color who have periods in their lives where they need help. They need direct financial assistance, and the our people, all of us who need help at various times like if we are sick or trying to buy a house or whatever, what looms before us. Have i answered that . Yes. Okay, the next most voted on question is, are you satisfied with the level of attention from the Biden Campaign on these issues . I no. [inaudible] i think him i was looking something up on youtube earlier and and i can Biden Campaign popped up underwater to put my head through a wall. Like i cant, the answer is like, no two the degree i cant express right now. I mean, i will say he has gotten pushed left, like his proposals are farther for the left that t theyre going to be, but i cant, i cant stand i cant stand it. What do you think, barbara . I dont know. It was heartbreaking when sanders stepped out. Although no, i cant go there. I cant get on excited anything about biden. Will vote for him no matter what. Thats what old people do. We go out and vote for one reason or another. But with less and less conviction. I would like to vote for a socialist for president in the democratic primary in virginia. Thats great. I loved that. I dont think im even going to get to because i think theres like, like the primer in new york i cant even the next question is, this is a great question and im glad stephanie, you brought it up. Its access to Public Education and how is how did you put it . How is access to Public Education going to be change for the disadvantaged by this crisis . I been thinking a lot about this. I been thinking a lot about, in particular, like one thing ive been thinking about is how much soon as a magnifier of economic inequality in a lot of ways. I was thinking all the low Income College Students who get to college and its supposed to be the is additional sort of equalizer and then all of a sudden this is just boomer ranking them right back into the situations where, like the differences between their home life and classmates home lives are vastly very obvious. Ive been thinking that about t mostly at a College Level for some reason but ive been thinking about like i have friends who come one of my Close Friends teaches in high school in the bronx and one of her students doesnt have the inte. They dont have internet at home, the ways in which advantaged children will be kind of board and stress and the can imagine how that will be but they will be okay, like they of people watching out for them versus how deeply people on the other end are going to be disadvantaged by this Public School being closed. Do you have any thoughts about that . Well, you have to answer some of these, you know that, jia. I mean, i think there are one of the things thats been revealed, and case anybody has forgotten, is look at how important schools are as eating said for a lot of children because thats where you can get breakfast and lunch, or could. What happened to that . What are those kids eating . Whats going on . So the schools are sort of the wedge of the welfare state thats impacting everybodys life. This is one of those ways especially with all the debate about for the week or so or maybe more than that it was up in the air in new york weather not they were going to close schools, everyone kept being like bringing up the point that these are feeding centers. This is often like the most reliable meal many of the students get in a day. The Homeless Population that in new york Public Schools so sufficient, and to me this is exactly, i mean, the ways which income inequality are direct dangers to public, like the way income inequality harms the Public Health of every Single Person in this country, like that to me was when the most obvious examples, right . Its like if schools didnt have to Service Eating centers, then they could even close earlier and the epidemic in new york would look so different, you know . Like a domino effect. Yeah. Public schools have been a good advertisement for having a welfare state. Right now, yesterday, last year, whenever. Otherwise, i dont know what happens when people get hungry. In new york at least, i think a lot of public, in new york schools of open places you could pick up a meal twice a day, which is good, but to that point its sort of like schools should not be the singular protective effect factor to make up for all the other programs that are lacking. So, yeah. Okay. Heres the next question. How do we organize protests in action i would as you say we cant be together . The person who wrote the question wrote, there is a new sense of leverage somewhere like we have 1200 people attending this conversation, like there is energy right now. Its coming out of some places. Activism doesnt necessarily mean people in the street but it needs something. Any thoughts on how we can organize right now, how to find that leverage . I think people have been doing, to some extent, well, heres one thing that i think about this. I talked to some disability activists when i was reporting that mutual aps because there are some activists who have always had to organize remotely kind of, weve always had to learn to provide services remotely. It reminded me that it is possible, like it is, like this is one of those many things that some communities have been working out for a long time, and there is like this all of the mutual aid not works networks have popped up everywhere. Theres an unprecedented amount of online organizing, but the question is where that goes. I dont know. Ive been thinking about the limits of electoral politics a lot lately and i think thats what were feeling, like where does this go. Its not going its got to go somewhere new. Also as someone whose natural leanings are people physically together is what makes a movement. It creativity and working on that. I mean, like talking to my friend who is involved with the amazon workers organizing. If they get a meeting in a warehouse fulfillment center, i should say thats such a good name. You know, how do you choreograph that meeting . I mean, we have to figure out how you get people to succeed, you know, in patterns that make sense and that are themselves symbolic of something. Im at the limits of my imagination here. Im a writer, not a dancer. I cant figure out the choreography of protests, but these are new kinds of things we have to be thinking of. Yeah. I mean, im interested in the rent strikes that have been, like the may 1 went straight rent strike. Organized online and, yeah, its hard, im finding it especially hard to think about this at a time like, its really hard to deny the new child of physically being together, even like existential like, you know, let alone politically. I have been [inaudible] its the symbol for dsa, or was anyway, democratic socialist for america, which is two hands joined, brown hands and white hands. That linkage, that flash to flash skin to skin linkage flash to flesh is so much a part of being together and, we say im here with you. Thats how we do it. Now we need all you smart young people to figure out new ways to do it, too. Yeah. All right, the next most voted question is very to the point. Okay, barbara, are you ready . Does the modern american working class you been writing about this. Does the modern american working class have a breaking point out we destined to have the boot stamping on our face forever . Well. Who asked that question . Jeff again. Thats the question. We dont know where that striking point is. We never do with people. You know, prerevolutionary situations are awfully hard to figure out. And things could go in Different Directions so quickly, so i dont make predictions, but i do think theres a definite breaking point when you cant pay the rent and you cant put food on the table. I mean, you walk out the door and into the street and try to make trouble. I mean, thats the only weapon you have of hand then is disruption. That may be the only thing we can do, as my friend and role model frances fox given, a political scientist, you know, youve got to give out in the street, your got to disrupt to get attention. So i listen to frances. In terms of disruption, one of the movements ive been most interested in is bombs for housing in oakland. In terms of just talking about direct disruption, that has worked. Its really amazing. Its so funny, all these people in the comments arguing i need a vocal coach gus i say like too much. You guys dont have to keep watching. People are liking you as we speak . No, they are telling me that i say like and you know too much, that i need a speech coach. [laughing] i think you speak fine. I think writers should be read and not seen the sometimes where to do these things because thats just, thats just how it is. Okay. Can you both, can you make some reading suggestions of books that influenced you . Yeah, lets say, what was your nickel and dime, barbara . I dont have one book. I was a compulsive reader as a child. I read everything, and fiction, nonfiction. And i think that formed me a lot as a writer. But what forms me politically was probably more my family background which was bluecollar mining family actually from butte, montana. Originally we were. That had an impact that it didnt even begin to sort out until i was in my 20s to realize that there were classes in american society, that i was in one and it wasnt, i came from one that wasnt very good to be from. And today i would have to say that one of the things that outrages me the most among liberals, some people on the left even, is there will woulda kind of content workingclass people, i content for them which they would recognize if it were in strictly racial terms. For example, recognize it as racism. The word classism is so weak and doesnt speak at all to what im talking about. You know, we have to we would get back to that. Yeah. Im try to think, nickel and dime is pretty formative for me. I think both like ineffective, evicted if so get aside, random family, its like when my favorite nonfiction books ever. To me actually like thats the book, like if all the boring reading people have to do, instead of all this chaucer, they should be reading random family and evicted, you know . [inaudible] i think you would really, really, really like it. I loved evicted. It hurt to read, but i loved it. It was a great book. Its like, i mean, i think all these books, they speak to the actual fact of income inequality. They are not drive. They are not like statistical things that were talking about in the abstract, like income inequality is uniquely human, emotional. Its what you portrayed, this sort of deeply human, like all these books on income inequality by these books about what it is to be a human who wants things, you know . I think thats why these books let such an impact on me. Maybe lets do one more question. 6 57. Okay. How are journalists, writers, as citizens help reframe the narrative away from the corporate right has managed to frame it as for decades . I dont know. Let me pull something i thought was really amazing. To me, i mean, i have no idea. Like you try to do your best every day and thats all you can ever do. Okay. Actually i have a better answer for this question. I grew up with most of the people i grew up with were extremely conservatives. Are what . Very, very conservative. Certainly dont believe in universal healthcare or all these things, think that the minimum wage is there, right to work, whatever. I think that theres just increasingly, theres never been any time to mess around, but there shall no time to mess around now. I have been heartened at least and the last few months at how much more plainly people are putting things. Like there was this, like this kind of went around, some surprising that the new yorker published this but there was a piece in the new yorker that was just i cant find it. Oh, no. Its just, like the quicker and more directly that people can call bullshit computer, we cant beat around the bush at all anymore. I mean, you never have though. No. I think its possible to speak more plainly. Its possible to say yeah, socialism. Thats the general direction i want to go in. Somethings were unthinkable even okay. Sorry. My technician is helping me here. So i sort of lost the train there. You said some things were unthinkable. Oh, i mean, even to talk about medicare for all, you know, personalized medicare. That was unthinkable a few weeks ago. Now whats the alternative . Right. We have no alternatives. No sane ones anyway. If im having a last word here, i want to say, its people like you, gia, who give me a great deal of hope, and to my Technical Assistant here was my very own daughter who wrote a book and is also a writer and troublemaker in many, many ways. So consider the torch passed. I dont think, i dont know if im worthy to carry the torch but while you are talking, if i have a last word, i think one thing ive been thinking about in terms of how different socialism as the way i think it should be framed. I forget, someone wrote a piece recently about how americans are so used to accepting this abstract idea of freedom in exchange for just a deep lack of actual freedom, right . We accept the abstract freedom to work instead of the concrete freedom to be protected in the workplace, right . And i think like you are so many ways in which, the person who wrote the question said, these ideas, the basic idea of freedom has been coopted when, in fact, to me freedom means welfare, it means security, it means safety net. You have to start with social security. Yeah. Okay, well, i think back includes our hour. I will turn back over to liz. Hi again. Thank you so much for engaging this conversation with us. I feel like, i know people are listening and i could listen to talk pretty much every day dealing with these topics, so thank you. And thank you to everyone who is listening just a reminder that we put on these events with love what we need your support and so to the office. You can click down here to buy both books and you get a personalized bookplate and you can also click on the bottom to donate your program which allows us to keep bringing to programs like this. We have a lot of other programs coming up. Tomorrow we have Lawrence Wright we have a bunch more so check out our website for more information. Thank thank you, gia. Thank you, barbara. Stay well and stay well read. Heres a look at some books that are being published this week. Bind to these titles this coming week wherever books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on booktv on cspan2. Cspan is unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the Supreme Court and Public Policy events. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online or listen on our free youth radio app every part of a National Conversation through cspans Baby Washington journal programs or through our social media feeds. Cspan, created by americas cabletelevision companies as a public service, and brought to you today by your television provider. Democratic representative john lewis of georgia died on friday july 17, 2020. The civil rights activist who spoke at the march on washington and chaired the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee was elected to congress in 1986. He served as the democratic representative of georgias fifth Congressional District until his passing. In 2013, representative lewis appeared on booktv these indepth to discuss his life and work picky was the author of several books including walking with the wind, across that bridge, and march. I was part of the freedom ride. We left washington dc may 4, 1961. 18 of us