Transcripts For CSPAN2 Casey Sherman And Dave Wedge Hunting Whitey 20240712

Everyone for being here this evening, you are going to supporting these amazing journalists and writers as those our bookstore by purchasing their copy of the book through us or by choosing to pay your way to the event. Every event especially in times like these so we cant see how much we appreciate it. Before we get started just a few things about how deep did thats critical tonight and just about the platform we are on. You can see youre free to use the chat been doing. Throughout the event is not a disturbance at all if you have any thoughts or anything, if you just want to give a shout out, feel free to. Not a disturbance at all. I encourage everyone to be kind and respectful to authors and each other but hopefully that should go without saying. Im going to give a short introduction here and turned over to Casey Sherman and david which are at that well have time for questions from the audience see concert thinking about in question jeff for these guys at which point ill come back on screen choose to sort of repeat the question and be a vessel for that. So if you have any questions about how that function works, which is a little button right there sort of towards the middle of your screen, to the left of the chat box seat can punch in your question there. Its relatively straightforward once you find it. I think that comes not all the administrative side of things. So tonight we are excited to welcome Casey Sherman and david wedge, one of the premier nonfiction writing teams out of and with the city of boston. Together they cowrote the definitive story of the Boston Marathon bombings in boston strong in the citys trying over tragedy which was adapted into the film patriots day. Tonight it be discussing their new book hunting whitey. Drawing on exclusive interviews and exhaustive investigative reporting they tell the complete story of Whitey Bulger, the leader of bostons winter hill gang and the one on the fbis most wanted list. The book focuses on the years hes been on the run and eventual capture and murder in prison one course record americas most infamous prisons. There are other books include ice bucket challenge a the fight against illness which is development for future from right now and New York Times bestselling 12, the inside story of tom brady fight for attention. They will be joined tonight in conversation by boston 25 News Reporter bob ward regard as for new england best crime reporters. From local investigations to federal probes he has covered hundreds of these cases no forgetting officials allege criminal and witnesses to go on record in his reporting. He has received numerous awards for his reporting, too numerous to mention here, and his Committee Service as well where we are so excited to have these incredible writers and journalists with us tonight so please come in welcoming them. Bradley, thank you so much and thank you for those kind words. Its an honor really to do with casey and dave as they launch this book, hunting whitey which i been reading over the last couple of days. I have known what but the you s for so long and all you out in the field on the whitey story and other stories are well. The whitey story from is probably the most important story that ill ever cover, and it still goes on. Can ask both of you, why you decided to go after the story of Whitey Bulger . What was it you are trying to get across in your new book . Again bob, theres been so much great reporting on this story in the boston area. You are one of many journalists that really nailed down his life of crime from south boston meshing with his very double his relationship with the fbi. What dave and i were looking at after he was murdered in prison was those 16 years that is on the run as a fugitive, and all the time he spent in prison leading up to his murder, and his murder itself. Those are the missing gaps in the bolger saget in helping to provide for. I think we did. Bob, i concur with d. C. I was looked up to you as reporter, a lot of respect. You do some incredible work, special on unsolved cases comes i think i bought after watching really tune into your and you do great steps of think. Want to think everyone for joining us on this innovative book launch event we are doing. These are obviously time for everybody. This is a new way for us to release a book but we hope people pick it up and have some fun and try to escape a little bit into the world of whitey that casey just described. I covered a lot of the whitey stuff as you did for 14 years i never thought i would even consider writing a book about Whitey Bulger because there are so many different great reporters the tackle the topic in the past, but after he was murdered casey and i really thought there was a need to write this book because of so many Unanswered Questions of his murder some Unanswered Questions about his life on the run. There was still this mythology of the about Whitey Bulger about local gangster that the three of us know as completely fiction. We felt a duty to report it up. Thats what we did here. And one of the great things about the book is that when i approached Whitey Bulger, if i had to cover a story or do something, had to narrow my focus because its such a huge story. Where to dive in . How far back do you go . Then theres the fbi corruption, and great thing about this book is you get a taste of all with a focus on the last 17, 18 years of his life thats not widely reported. Youre going to learn a lot from reading this book anything you get some insight into who Whitey Bulger actually was. Let me go chronologically through what you covered, and it really begins in 1994 right, when indictments come down and Whitey Bulger disappears. But doesnt disappear with katherine gray, the woman that we all know he was cut without in santa monica. He disappeared right before christmas 1994 with his commonlaw wife teresa stilley. Now, Catherine Greg was the mistress in his life before she went on the run with them. But Whitey Bulger the corrupt fbi agent turned corporate security officer, we still had Vital Information that he could glean from the fbi. That kept Whitey Bulger one step ahead of Law Enforcement. Theres a huge winter noreaster brewing, finds out all of his gang members and his partner in crime are about to get indicted. So he takes teresa and takes her for an odyssey that lasts for about a month and a half. Teresa is on the run with her husband, so to speak, but shes got kids at home. Shes got grandchildren at home. Shes not cut out for the fugitive life, and theres a lot of anger and resentment during that time between the couple. Teresa stilley was in fear for her life and it many times during that brief treatment where Whitey Bulger would be very violent towards her. Finally Whitey Bulger says all right, youre not cut out for. Im going to take you back to chelsea and ill pick up my mistress, Catherine Greg to hiss being in love with me for 20 years now, and we will see how far this fugitive odyssey takes us. It took them 16 years. When whitey took off you can get an idea you would be gone for that length of time . Yeah, i do, bob. Casey and i like to say that he was a student of crime and he considered his time he served alcatraz is kind of like his harvard. We considered himself to have a phd in crime, but i think it also considered himself to the phd in being a fugitive. He had planned for that moment that phone call from john conley for many years, and he stashed money around the world and round the United States. He had cash. He had access to cash to get access to countless weapons, and he also had many different aliases and ways to make fake ids. He also had a lot of books on how to be a fugitive. He said ive got connections within the Massachusetts State Police which he did have and he knew that or at least he believed that he would be tipped off as well as where whitey was but that wasnt the case and what he had been planning for years for this particular moment in time, they were living daytoday and that wouldnt have got them, but would have kept bulger on the road for two decades one thing more, some of that group had been fugitives in the past and those guys, he was whiteys righthand man along with kevin meeks and he and white had a relationship but they learned a lot from each other as criminals and i think whitey learned lessons from those guys about how to be a fugitive as well. Its interesting that the two of them didnt talk about this is whitey and one approach and he had another approach andwhen they split up that was the end of it. So insular. Its amazing that they ran their organized crime outfits by, theyre very categorized in terms of the information that they share with each other and i dont think bulger shared, Stephen Fleming was the closest but there was a long that whitey kept to himself because he knew if these two cracked under pressure they would ultimately lead Law Enforcement to where Whitey Bulger was hiding so he insulated himself smartly. To me you look at all the legendary infamous gangsters in american history. Our components, meyer lanskys, the john gottis i think bulger was smarter than all of them because he was so willing to insulate himself and compartmentalize the information he was willing to give to others and i think that wasultimately wise. He survived on the run for as long as he did. Talk about him being a ghost on the run in his fugitive years, he was also a ghost when he was a south boston mob boss. When he was not there were no current pictures of him and i remember one time the fbi releasing audio recordings and we could hear what he sounded like and you contrast that with john connie and alcohol, they wanted to be seen and they wanted to be in the bad guy but not whitey. You wanted to be a ghost and the invisible and thats what he was while he was the king of south boston and while he was on the run. It was more like meyer lansky and those legendary gangsters trying to keep in the background and never allow themselves to be photographed, never allow themselves to berecorded. The teflon don was more known for the thousand suits that he wore to court every week as opposed to how he was able to manipulate and run a criminal organization. So i think whitey was the student of the organized crime legend and infamous legends came and he extrapolated a lot of those into his own life. I want to keep it moving and take over every detail we could talk for hours but hes got kaplan in the car and they eventually i think the most fascinating part of his years as a fugitive is what happened in louisiana because he took a risk and that he was there on aregular basis. And he ingratiated himself with the community and people in louisiana had no idea who he was so when did they get down to grand isle . Very shortly after they went on the run. They were swapping cars and part of the story of bulger is the fbi story and how these agents despite Public Perception that they were doing anything to find Whitey Bulger, many of them were including an agent who was able to find one of bulgers getaway cars and a driveway in new york and he takes this car apart and he finds a receipt and that receipt was from i believe louisiana which put the fbi on a hunt for whitey and catherine in a very rustic area in the United States but he was whitey and catherine and get down there under the aliases of tom and helen basher and 80 eight detroit family, a family that has a lot of money and bulger and catherine just hurl money at them. They pay for all their groceries. They take them shopping for Fishing Equipment. They pay for their medical bills and think the thing that dave and i love about that story is they had a dog named frederick and the dog had a litter of puppies and one of the puppies was critically ill. In massachusetts you take the animal to a shelter or an Animal Hospital andultimately that animal would be saved or euthanized. That by you is one way to solve that problem which is with a book and this killer of women, killer of men sees this puppy in the final moments of his life and he is dripping with tears. He cannot understand that one of the family members is about to kill this puppy and put it out of its misery and hes going to go before the gunshot rents. He just says do what you need to do. I had never heard that story before. We got the family to open up to us and thats one of the great things about this project for dave and i that weve covered a lot of cases. Dave and i wrote about tom brady of the new England Patriots and tried to extract information from the nfl and new England Patriots was nearly impossible but go out, go after Whitey Bulger, we were lucky that everybody else was able to finally tell their stories. You were in court and saw whitey and you listened to the violence and things he did when he was a younger man. You hear a story about whitey trying over a puppy dog how do you put that togetherin your head . Its classic serial killer behavior. Every serial killer has their vulnerabilities and for Whitey Bulger that weakness was animal and it ended up playing a vital role in his undoing which we will get to later but i think it goes back to thatmythology. He puts this image out there of being this super gangster. This untouchable gangster but really he was rather cowardly in a lot of ways and i think about what we were talking about with the photographs of steve flemmi and everybody withwhitey was on a need to know basis. That family didnt know he was a fugitive but he was so good deceiving them that the when they were finally told by the fbi who Whitey Bulger was they refused to believe it. He showed so much kindness to them by as you mentioned buying gifts for the kids. Buying refrigerators and didnt the kids call himuncle or something . Thats how they knew of whitey and catherine and the day whitey knew his aliashave been made he , and catherine were very cheerful on goodbyes with the family and whitey tells them youre going to read some things about me in the newspaper and see some things about me in the news, just know that we love you and will always love you and culture, despite the depravity of this guy and certainly he was a monster, the really had an affection for this family and continue to correspond with them well beyond his capture and into the years as a convict in federal prison. So eventually you tell the great story about how he was made and it involves teresas family. Talk about women problems, that hurt teresa and it really, that whole episode kinda contributed to whitey to have to make some fast moves. At first it was this crowning moment and she was somebody that still loved Whitey Bulger had to come back to her family and she still is trying to grapple with that so she goes out and gets very close to another underworld person. And and the fbi is thinking we set this guy up as an informant is there going to be pillow talk to teresa and this gangster its going to bring us information as to where he is and ultimately teresa does give up Whitey Bulgers alias as tom baxter and bulger and catherine were willing to spend believe the rest of their lives as fugitives down in grand isle because nobody cared about that place. Nobody still cares about grand isle. The fbi agents that drove down there but they were in an episode of true detective. Its not rural, that unusual and people can hide for years there but once whitey was made he had to move on and Catherine Grieg allowed him to crisscross the country likehe did. One thing with teresa stanly, a statement made in the original manhunt before this new group of agents was brought into the casethat tracked him was they waited too long to interview teresas family after she came home. Had they done that sooner perhaps this flight from justice would have been cut dramatically ifnot stopped right there in grand isle. Charlie g undergo got that break in the case casey described but the cavalry didnt come. Charlie was down in grand isle and was ready to make a move on bulger and he got pulled out of there and theres questions about why that happened and i think thats an interesting part of the story but really key to the early mistakes being made was not really putting teresa stanly underhot lights right away. They waited weeks. Someone should have been sitting on her house the entire time and that didnt happen. It almost took two years for the fbi to interview john conley as to the whereabouts of Whitey Bulger. It was insane. Theres no clear answer, werethey covering for themselves or were the incompetent . Thats the whole idea that they dont really want to find whiteys house. That question hung over until theday he was thought. Thats a big part of our story and you ask why we jumped in and thats a big part of the story that we will get to and people can read all about it because that faction that made those mistakes we just described navy there were mistakes and maybe they were calculated oversights to enable whitey, to bury oral and also protect Collateral Damage in that office that might have been mixed up with John Connolly and h paul rico but the new agents that came in and tracked that case, they didnt care about any of them and they were notgoing to do any of that. I remember that well. I remember the people to go in and talk to the agents and we always talked about whitey and it was very, very difficult for them to work in that office while as long as he was out there they were getting ripped left and right because while whitey is gone lenny is still here and the judge has things taking place and finds out hes an informant, thats all coming out at that time and whitey is out of the picture lenny is dealing with it, lisa is dealing with it and the agents that are workingthat office are dealing with it as well. So how does whitey get out to california . He took the train out from chicago all the way to la. And he landed in la first and eventually he got to santa monica and he got to la in about the same time that the o. J. Simpson civil trial was underway. And we have a passage in the book where whitey and catherine are at this flophouse if you will and all of a sudden whitey is trying to sleep and he hears teleprompters overhead and he thinks youre come to fbi, theyre coming to get me finally but what he didnt realize was they had a bunch of media folks including helicopters that were following o. J. Simpsons motorcade to the civil trial court house in santa monica where that case was ultimately adjudicated so Whitey Bulger grabs catherine at that moment and says we got to leave and end up in venice beach and that a speech, they really start to find themselves as fugitives and bulgers policy was Social Security numbers and false identification and he would find people down on their luck on the road and offer them cash, 400 in cash if they would allow, if they would sell their Social Security number two catherine or sell their Social Security number two one of them so he knew that it wasnt bullets wasnt a threatening demeanor that was going through a lot of them to keep them on the run. What it was was cash and Social Security numbers. One of the most interesting cases of his time , he set up as a genius that there up there on the third floor. They got their apartment and theyre doing their best to mix in but what did he tell the story about the other legend of whitey comes out. Nobody knows where he is but his story is getting cold and his hollywood tells his story through the departed and it turns out whitey was just as interested as all of us were in how hollywood was portraying him. Its a funny scene in the book and i dont want to give the whole thing away because its an interesting read but anyone who ever tells their life story or as a film made of them is going to want to see it but whitey was no different. He normally had nothing to do with the departed, he was fascinated by it and when that movie came out he was in san diego and he went to a showing of it at the theater in san diego and there he is in the theater watching nicholson portray a character , a mob boss paste on Whitey Bulger and a few rows behind him is a sheriffs deputy who happened to grow up in massachusetts and knew who Whitey Bulgerwas, recognized him , couldnt believe his eyes. Waited until after the showing to try to confirm that it was him and they locked eyes and this deputy that we spoke with for the book told us in no Uncertain Terms he made Whitey Bulger and he believes Whitey Bulger made him and there was a chase that ensued and obviously bulger got away and continued his flight to talk about art imitating life. Ive seen the surveillance images of Whitey Bulger in san diego and the sheriffs deputy there we speak of, his name was Richard Eaton so such a small world that Richard Eaton and i lived, went to the same high school together. So i heard the story when it happened in 2006 because Richard Eaton told me that and he wasnt proud of it. He was the guy that was an incredibly adept and decorated sheriff deputy in san diego. He was breaking down the drug cartels in san diego and here he is confronting Whitey Bulger and he knows he made Whitey Bulger because he saw his eyes and he saw that dirty tooth that Whitey Bulger had and he also noticed that bulger had a short sleeve polo shirt on and there was a certain bulge in that polo shirt that suggested a gun. And Richard Eaton at the time was not armed because it just so happened he was testifying in a gun trial at the federal court down the street and he had given his weapon to the bailiff that morning so heres Richard Eaton whose unarmed who knows altar is not going to go without a fight and it just decides to trail him for as long as he can and he does so until bulger getson a trolley and thats when bulger gives him the slip. We only have a few minutes i want to spend on the suit but lets go right to the capture because you mentioned the new agents and i remember they were constantly coming up with new ideas, new ways to try to keep interest in Whitey Bulger high and they went to americas most wanted. They would target billboards and eventually though ultimately what worked was a targeted an ad campaign focused not necessarily on whitey but on Catherine Grieg. Tell the story about how things turned around once that started showing up over los angeles. Noreen gleason is one of the main characters in the books, a female agent brought into the case in the 2000 and gleason was among those agents we talked about that was disgusted with the reputation that the bureauhad. She had no ties to that john conley regime, she just wanted to catch her man. And she decided away to do that was eyecatching bulger is woman. They knew Catherine Grieg had had Plastic Surgery and they put out a genius move. They put out ads in Plastic Surgery and trade magazines and they got some feedback and they found a Plastic Surgeon who actually not only treated catherine, put breast implants in her behalf, many really clear pictures of her which they didnt have before. Those pictures were what were used in a first of its kind Public Service announcement that the fbi did and it was such an innovative project that the fbi put together, they couldnt afford to put the psa on tv in every market but what it did is it got worldwide Media Coverage because he was Whitey Bulger and he was the number one most wanted man in america at that point it was seen by a woman in iceland and obviously made it into the la market so it was a huge, smart decision by Noreen Gleason and those people she was working with. They didnt have to payfor every one at the scene. That was earned media. Thats right so the dramatic takedown of Whitey Bulger, one of their allstars in lawho is actually on his day off with his family , he wason vacation. He was at a Sporting Goods store with his kids buying Fishing Equipment and he gets a text on his phone area possible Whitey Bulger citing , please contact boston so he was about to say im on vacation and this is more of an oc case meeting organized crime. Scott was a fugitive hunter that had penetrated the mexican drug cartels very successfully but the agent and him wouldnt let it go and he said hes about to delete it or about to send that messageand instead he says okay, what do you have . The next text comes over and youve got a tipster in iceland that she knows the aliases of whitey and catherine for ultimately were telling carol casco and she also has an address which was the 303 virginia and santa monica. So gary owens says who took the tip . It was a us marshall named Neil Sullivan and the great thing about this is the ultimate takedown was that the fbi utilized the Us Marshals Service and state police and the Attorneys Office in a team like fashion to bring down whitey but he didnt trust anybody else at the bureau so he says i dont like being the guy at the Us Marshals Service, i need to talk to the district myself so they put him in touch with this woman in iceland and she gives them the recent launch and all the leads. And that the conversation gary owens says ive got to ask you, how sure are you that he reached these fugitives for 16 years and this tipster says thats it, im not 100 percent sure so he can see him getting deflated and but then she jumps in and says im 200 percent sure. Its them and at that point it was game on area. So the trap is set and you could see it in your mind. You can see it all to taking place, you stood in the garage where this allwent down. Where was the room and whitey, he didnt fight back. He knew his time was up. And dave is about to talk about this but we have not only the scotts version of the events in this book also whiteys version of the events. The first time that bulger even discusses how and why he was captured and how he felt at that time. They go yes, its 20, 30 the letters that we obtained for this book explaining hisown arrest. He talks about how eerily quiet in the elevator but the way it all went down was to realign his team that was there a new that Whitey Bulger was on to the chief and he was the kind of guy that would shoot his way out if he had to and that they were afraid he would take Catherine Bulger as a human shield or a hostage so they came up with this ruse that they got the manager of the building to call and lie to them and say the storage locker had been broken into. And bulger was protective of his stuff so he came down to meet them and he was met by an army of fbi agents and when i first heard that story , i was surprised actually that bulger didnt pick up on that. That would seem to be something a little unusual. Why somebodys breaking into a storage locker in thegarage. He may have obviously made a payroll mistake there in his years on the run. I think also how the building manager presented it to him was you can either come down and check it out yourself or said i call the police and he didnt want him to call the police and gas go, the alias he wasgoing to go down there and look at it himself. They even went to the step to break the locker so when he got off the elevator it would look like somebody didnt backbreaking. They took their time and they were very meticulous because as dave said they believe that he was willing to go down with a fight and they were going to kick down the door because ultimately that would haveended in a bloodbath. And the easiest way to do it was to lower this elderly man out into the public and when gets down into the basement of the excess eugenia, he knows that hes been made before they even announced that the fbi, Whitey Bulger, get down. But he still had an act of defiance in that moment. He did. There was an incredible standoff he himself described in that letter and ill just again, not to give it all away he was if i write to the end. I think that bulger i believe he expected to go out in a blaze of glory and i think this was a little bit disappointing to him that this was the way he was going down, hes going down and grabbing his stuff and he gets made, and nailed in a dirty parking garage and i think that it wasnt the fiery end that bulger had anticipated but that was to come. He had a lot more eases up his sleeve as the trial comes and i think that he spent the rest of his life to his lawyers and his own actions trying to keep up this myth abouthimself. So then hes arrested and i dont know about you my mind was blown and you start hearing they got arrested and the next day was just a blur and it took a little bit beforehe could show up for his initial appearance. And i know or me when i sit there in that courtroom and i saw itfor the first time , theresa ghost in the flesh. What did you guys think when you heard the news and finally got to see him . I think we were all shocked. Nobody ever believed he would be captured. He certainly never believed it and in fact he told fbi agents while they were interviewing him in the plane ride from la to boston he said if i felt like i was on my last legs, i would have gone to nevada or arizona. Found an empty mineshaft and just dropped down the 30 feet and i would have killed myself but nobody would have found my body area the fbi would have had mud on its face for the rest of its history because they never found me so bulger wanted to keep this illusion of the mythologyalive for as long as he could. Ill never forget i was in our newsroom that night. Im sure youre all that station and it was one of those onesit was like wow. I could not believe it. And i didnt believe it, i thought it had to be a have been a mistake. I personally thought he was probably dead or in another country and then the news started breaking that in fact he was in custody and he was in california hidingbasically in plain sight. My mind was blown but as i thought of one of the details in court and the ensuing days of covering it at all kind of made sense. It all made sense that he was just that much smarter than everybody else at being a fugitive. Everyone assumes he was out of the country in europe in some highlands or something and instead hes sitting in santa monica lessthan a mile from the police station. Its a decent Apartment Building but its not somewhere where a guy with 10 million incash would pick. To be in that apartment which any journalist could get access inside that very cramped space. Its unusual to walk that bridge to see how he was able to move around in a very tight limited space for over 16 years, going out with a pair of binoculars looking down the screen at potential with the assassins or whether or not there would be an fbi or state police team creeping up on him. He lived in that fear constantly and bulger was long gone when we got to that apartment but his ghost remains. He must have had a great relationship with catherine because how do youlive like that for all that time and not feel so claustrophobic . I mean from his point of view but also catherines point of view. Who knows what she thought when she got to that car with him way back in 97when they took off for 95 , when they took off. Did she expect to be in a tiny apartment for all that time and it couldnt have been a lot of fun for her if theres no sign of any kind of abuse between the two of them. He was abusive to her at the very beginning and i think thats just his demeanor. Hes the man of the relationship but ultimately as his body broke down she became the caregiver and the most important person in that relationship, the letters that dave and i have in this book are often love letters between Whitey Bulger and catherine and whitey clearly loved her and would say to friends of his in the letters i would take the electric chair tomorrow if they would allow catherine to go today. So there was a level of love there but there was also a level of manipulation and control that bulger had at least early on. Its a little bit late and i know we want to take questions but talking about the murder, i just want to touch on the trial. It was just an amazing event to cover. What was the moment for you . Its unfair to for one thing or one highlight that you take away that i cant believe i just saw that. I think the whole thing was a circus to begin with but the way i like to describe it is it was a this is your life Whitey Bulger situation but the one that stuck out to me and we reporting this book together was the bookie, the obrien. He recalls the story about another book, another bookie that whitey was shaking down in braintree and he tells the story about that youre going to pay out and the book he says im all set and bulger says we have anotherbusiness besides bookmaking. He says whats that . He says killing people like you accept the ad in an expletive area when the bookie testified bulger corrupted in laughter,pounded his fist on the table and says he couldnt believe how funny it was. It was like somebody told him the funniest joke he ever heard and that was an insight into the psychology of Whitey Bulger. He was enjoying it. There were witnesses that he really was disinterested in and didnt care that much but there were other moments was almost like he was waiting for this. Obviously kevin weeks, martorano took the stand and those were huge moments as well but anyone that saw his trial or has read about it can get an insight into what kind of a guy he was. One of the moments for me was when it wasnt the session, it was before stevie took the stand and they brought him out way ahead of time. We were in a break and the two of them were just staring at each other for the first time in 17 years orwhatever it was just the looks on their faces. It was this quiet thing and it looked like stevie was saying to whitey why did you do and it was like watching twolions that were about to pounce on each other. Stevie testified against Whitey Bulger. Stevie was also a government informant and even before whitey was, stevie turned turncoat, fbi turncoat in the 1960s while he was still an inmate at alcatraz. So we talk about the compartmentalization of organized crime in outfits like this and there were secrets that whitey and stevie would go to a break with secrets that whitey and stevie would keep from each other and that was one ofthem. So he is convicted the trial was an interesting trial area and it didnt like boston like i think many thought it would load a copy fbi specifically and we didnt name names of other corrupt people and whenhis convicted , he goes away and its interesting how from reading your book he goes from the sphere gangster really this pathetic old man in a prison system. Which led right up to his death and one of the greatest mysteries of this entire case is why was he at hazleton . Why did he get transferred in there where all of his enemies were. I still dont understand. Maybe there will be an investigation. The investigation is ongoing. Thats one thing we were able to confirm with this book. A man implicated in the killing, this guy freddie genius,hes a monster out of springfield. Uses an enforcer for the Italian Mafia out in springfield. He was serving time for a murder of a paco named adolph big al bruno and when freddy g is in hazleton and Whitey Bulger comes walking in, he was moved there under a very suspicious some might say nefarious circumstances i think our investigation has shown that there is a combination of negligence and incompetence. The warden said bothflorida and hazleton have a lot of questions to answer. And i hope they do but literally bulger was thrown to the lions. One of the most dangerous prisonsin the country. It was in the middle of a staffing crisis where they had had acouple of inmate murders. And filled with monsters, according to several from massachusetts and one of the things freddie genius didnt like was a rat and thats what he was. He was murderedhours after he arrived. Freddie genius is the guy that began corresponding with dave and i. Through letters and freddie wrote us several letters with pencils because they wont give him a sharp instrument as they fear that hes going to either job himself in the neck or is going to do harm to others so that he was able to at least paint a picture for us. And in many ways put an end to whitey jail cell at the very moment that he was killed and would also had cooperation with freddie genius his daughter taylor who is a College Graduate and a very successful in her own right and painted a different picture of freddie as this involved in building dad who it had his own code of honor which was today if youre in this world, youre in this world and you dont read on others area and bulger, he kept his feet area diving out, of course he was in many of the italian monsters in boston and one of the gangsters that bulger eventually thrown in jail for a crime he didnt commit was a guy named eddie weiss and, they will talk a little bit more about that but freddie spent 30 years in a jail cell with many of those years with ready genius, bemoaning the fact thatbulger put him there. Ive gotten to know freddie and ive interviewed him and he is now. He was able to, his conviction was overturned but he spent 30 years. 36 years for a crime he didnt commit and it was all based on, largely based on evidence that bulger provided. As is the start of his routine of ratting out his rivals and freddies her time with him in chile. And freddie talks to us about that in the book and people can read some of that stuff about his feelings about that case. One of the things that struck me i was reading about freddie and his family and the different views his family had of their father, its a mirror image of whitey. Theres people like kathy who you interviewed who had a completely humanistic view of Whitey Bulger and they just compartmentalized or didnt see and in jesus case he had kids but they wouldcome home and they would have this family life to. Its kind of chilling to think people could turn that on and off the way thatthey did. Again, bulger loved the stability of family life which is why they brought the latrobe family in grand isle under their wing as quickly as they did because they love to sit down for dinner. Bulger was very focused on the kids getting their homework done much as he was with teresa stanleys family as well though you have this guy thats trying to live the odyssey and harriet life and hes alsoaface and he has to go out and kill and from society which is what he did. Before we get into questions we have to talk about billy bulger and you sat down with him and he actually talk to you which is something hes avoided talking about his brother jim and the whole time ive been in boston. He goes in front of congress and you dont talk there either but what was that experience like . Really hadnt spoken publicly at all for 12 years. He did an interview with boston magazine 12 years ago but he was pretty evasive about jimmy in that one. And he was evasive with us as well. I had covered billy bulger when he was in the presidency and up at the statehouse so we kind of had i dont want to say a relationship that he knew who i was so when i still showed up on his doorstep he knew who i was and i think he knew why i was there and it was a very strange experience. You know bob and casey weve all knocked on 1 million over the years to get interviews and you never know whats on the other side of that door and so i had my phone and i was ready to capture anything he said and i expected he would say i love my brother but i dont want to talk to you and that would be it. But he opened the door to letting me in and it was almost like he wanted to speak and he was waiting for someone to come and ask him and we sat with him and we were interviewed for a couple of hours. Again, he was very evasive, didnt want to talk about his brothers life on the run is still concerned about being implicated in that as he should be. But he spoke at length about why he and his brother went one way and he went the other and talk a lot about the present matter we just discussed and it was clear that the family thinks there was corruption or negligence involved. They want some answers. So they have a lawsuit their filing. And theyre suing now its back then you were able to get billy to talk and show up and knock on the door and let you in to sit down. It wasnt as if jeff call set up an appointment later and hes got his talkingpoints that hes going to go over. It was a weird day. Billy bulger talking. As soon as i left the house i had been in that house a couple dozen times over the years and we were always knocking on his door and we always used the knock on mary fleming store two. As im sure youdid. And i very rarely got much out of billy over the years except billy had a soundbite here and there but as soon as i left the house i called casey and i said buddy, youre not going tobelieve what just happened. And i remember that conversation and the next day i went to the fbi agents and i was interviewing for the book as well. I told them what he had said and billy was cagey in this conversation with us but the fbi even said that guy should be in jail right now and they said put us on the record for this. They werent mincing words. They believed in their strong evidence to support it that billy was in touch and in contact with his fugitive brother, a killer and it what frustrated them was here was billy with a politician and he was also a lawyer which made him an officer of the court area and hes cooperating with one of the most notorious killers in gangland history. And the fbi agents could never wrap their heads around. And when he went down to washington to testify or not testify , the story broke about his grand jury appearance in which he admitted that he did take a phone call from jim at least once we know about on the record. He went to i think a lawyers house and took a phone call and they thought that was weeks before he appeared before congress and thats when he had his memory loss so. We found out in the courts writing this book was that whitey would buy a car and he would drive from santa monica to the midwest where he would place these phone calls to his family and he didnt particularly even want the fbi to say he was hiding out in canada as opposed to sunny southern california. Again, verypracticed and smart gangster. Always thinking. Should we take some questions . Because we only have a few minutes left. We can definitely do that, can you hear me okay . The first question comes from mike cahill. He said how is that he lasted as long as he did without the support of the community that protected him. He couldnt have and that was the frustration for the fbi agents that took over the case. They were beside themselves that every doorbell they knocked on was this code of silence and here was a guy that was accused of 19 murderers including the brutal murder of two women so the fact that bulger early on and invested in the community and always donated to the church and always bought meals for needy families, he was waiting for this moment in time where the community would protect himand they did. I want real quick to illustrate and put an exclamation point on that. Whenever the fbi would show up and interview one of bulgers family members they get a call back from tom kiley, the family attorney so they were really , they stalled the investigation the entire time. No one in the family ever cooperated. The next question comes from kate ashton, did you speak with the tipster in iceland. Iceland seems like a very distant place for a tipster to come from. Did not get a chance to speak with her. She was very private at the time that we decided to write this book but this tipster in iceland originally had lived in santa monica. Right across the street from whitey and catherine and what ultimately was there love that. They would feed a stray cat that they nicknamed tiger and this tipster was doing the same thing. And she built a relationship with catherine she thought was a delightful person but your comes her boyfriend, whitey who they saw charlotte at the time who would rail against president obamas immigration policies and thats would start with the tipster. She thought he was angry, that he was racist and she never lost that memoryand ultimately it led to their death. If you think about the fact that the tip came in from iceland makes a lot of sense as you cannot be further away from santa monica. If youre going to rat out Whitey Bulger you better not be in that neighborhood in santa monica so it makes a lot of sense she had all that distance to make that phone call and as you said when the fbi agent said are you sure and she said im 200 percent sure. You dont do that if youre in here that this person is going to come back and get you. And then cynthia has to questions from rhonda moskowitz. The first one is do you think catherine knows where it is hidden . I have to assume she knows where some money is hidden. She was on the run for 16 years. She has not spoken to authorities. She was the good old gangster mall that she promised whitey she would beshe never cracked. He served her time and shes out of jail, now living with members of bulgers family in massachusetts and i think she probably does have some information about where he has money hidden. The fbi in the book, they all said if somebody close to bulger knows where those safety deposit boxes are there were probably 30 million worth of james and ultimately that money should go to the victims families. And the fbi in that said look, follow those types of people that are close to you were close to whitey because ultimately theyre going to lead you to where the lottery is area. They were in that tiny apartment, you guys saw how small it was really 800,000 dollars in cash takes up a lot of space area and away you didnt know the money, no way she didntknow about the weapons. I think she knows everything. I think so too and she even took more time on her sentence. She partly serve any time at all. Some would say she was the perfect accomplice really go on this ride with him and she kept her mouth shutand stood by her man. Then the next question from rhonda is a little bit about this but to what extent do you think whitey and billy kept in touch . I think we kind of covered its hard to say. We definitely still got a lot of folks investigators and others with the case that dont believe for one minute that he wasnt in regular contact with several people back here in boston including his own family and Billy Aldrich did admit at least one phone call from his daughter. It it strains credulity to think that was the only one. The thing about the highpriced the whole family paid. Jackie and billy lost his job and now i know hes got a healthy pension hes living on it doesnt have the power and prestige used to have jackie off his pension. And again, they stayed loyal to him right to the end. We have audio conversations to billy and whitey behind bars as one of the house of corrections and theres one home where billy asks whitey do you know what youve done to this family . And whitey looks at him like hes ready to kill his own brother and he says you know what its done to you . What do you think its done to me and he goes off on his own brother and talks about the fact that he cant have anycontact with catherine. Hes going to die in prison so there was some friction in that relationship. And then i think this will probably be thelast question we have before interrupting but its a good one to end on. Renoir asks what was his Mental Illness as you he was able to disassociate himself with people. I wondered if maybe a psychosis was involved but maybe you can from jump from there into a larger psychological sense that you have of whitey. I think Whitey Bulger is a classic sociopaths for the reasons we just discussed, that he was able to separate his horrible crimes of killing and then disfiguring people and his love of animals area he was just as classic sociopaths but casey can talk about hismental condition which goes all the way back to his days in alcatraz. I mean, bulger was a bad guy begin with but he had participated in potentially thousands to shave off time for his sentence and they basically convinced him to do it because they believed they told him that the government was looking to find a cure for schizophrenia area and ultimately it was a cia operation to develop a mind control agent. And here is bulger participating in all of these crazy lsd trips as a prisoner so you got a guy that leaning towards being a bad person and then that chemistry with all the lsd experiments, it really changes his mind and he almost becomes the incredible hulk of criminals at that point. So it definitely was a determining factor and it prompted wanted him for his life and we write about that in the book and the fact that catherine and whitey could not stay in the same bedroom at night because whitey would wake up screaming because he would be reliving these hallucinations that hed experienced so many years before. Im not a psychologist, i dont know. I just know from watching import, watching him every day was very involved in his trial. He was prone to outbursts from time to time. He could also turn on the charm as when he was first brought in and he was asked can you afford a lawyer and his answer was i could if he gave me my money back. So you got this serial killer head of the mob and hes cracking irish jokes and trying to be one of the guys. There were so many different facets as to him and i think thats what made him the mob boss, probably the most feared and effective mob boss we seen in new england. I think thats a great place to wrap things up. Thank you all for all three of you so much for this. This is incredible and a great conversation and thanks to everyone who tuned in. Theres a link to buy the book right down there in the bible book box. I hope you have a great rest of your life and take great care. Thank you. Heres a look at books being published this week. Harvard University History professor Alexander Quezada look at past attempts to abolish or change the Electoral College in why do we still have the Electoral College . In yes i can say that comedian judy judy goldweighs in on free speech and censorship. Lawrence roberts recounts the protests against the vietnam war in the spring of 1971 and made a 1971. And in the drudge revolution reporter Matthew Lacey recounts matt drudges founding of the news the drudge report and its role in challenging mainstream media. Also being published former filledexecutive chris fenton recalls his experiences working in the Chinese Market and offers his thoughts on the challenges other american entertainment businesses faced in feeding the dragon. And in the hunting of hillary journalist Michael Dantonio reports on attempts to challenge Hillary Clintons reputation. Find these titles this coming week where books are sold and watch for many of the authors in the near future on book tv on cspan2. Journalist Janice Kaplan highlighted women geniuses who gone unrecognized by society. In this portion of theprogram she discusses lee meitner who discover Nuclear Fission. There was this amazing moment in the 1930s who discovered nuclearfission. She was the first person to understand when you split and adam, the nucleus of an atom of uranium there was a big explosion of energy and that of course led to Nuclear Energy and it led unfortunately to Nuclear Weapons which she was not willing to have any part of but it was also somethingthat turned physics on itshead. It was really important and it won the nobel prize. I say it won the nobel wise because price because lee whitener did not win the nobel prize. From what ive read otto hahn was a very nice man and a very good chemist and maybe he even deserved the nobel prize for being part of Something Else but he didnt deserve it for Nuclear Fission because he didnt understand Nuclear Fission but these men and of course they were men on the Nobel Committee just couldnt wrap their heads around the idea that it could have been a woman responsible for this enormous breakthrough a call back into what we were talking about before, confirmation bias must be the woman behind the man. Its always the man who doesnt the woman behind the man gave the nobel prize to the man. Many years later, the proceedings of the Nobel Committee were released. The certain number of years that the nobel proceedings were released and a group of physicists looked at that and called it the most egregious and indefensible oversight ever. And believeme for egregious and indefensible oversight there is a lot of competition. But what kelly was referring to is that many physicists sense tried to make it up to lee and theres now an asteroid named for her. There are statues of her all over berlin where she did her work. And my favorite, the periodic table, theres not an element on the periodic table named mike neary. To watch the rest of her talk visit our website, cspan. Org. I in her name or the title of her book, the genius of women in the search box at the top of the page. Heres a look at some Publishing Industry news. Author and Foreign Correspondent Richard Dickey died last week at the age of the eight area he was the author of seven books including a memoir of his relationship with his father, former poet laureate aims dickey who authored the bestselling novel deliverance. Joanna cole author of the childrens education series the Magic School Bus also died earlierthis month. Ms. Cole created the series in 1986 which followed a group of schoolchildren on fantastical trips led by their teacher missed frizzle. The books were developed into an animated Television Program that aired on pbs or 18 years red on nicole died at the age of 75 in other news, lisa lucas has been named the new publisher of pantheon and part of the Penguin Random house publishing group. Miss lucas had been the director of the National Book foundation for the past four years. Also in the news and ebook scan provided a list of the bestselling books for the first half of the year. Six of the top 10 are nonfiction titles including john boltons memoir of his time in the trump administration. Robin dangelo from kennys respective books on race in america and eric larsons recount of Winston Churchills leadership during the london blitz. And barnes and noble renovated 350 of their stores during the time they were closed due to the coronavirus pandemic. Bookstore chain focused on reorganizing the departments providing greater selection and making the stores writer area book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. You can also watch all of our archived programs anytime at book tv. Newt gingrich quickly climbs way to the upper echelons of Republican Leadership are refusing to accept republicans were destined to be the minority in the house. He worked with present writing to bring about real positive change in america. According to speakers gingrich new book, trump and the american future solving the great problems of our time from the spread of the coronavir t