Take on some new challenge. Of what, i have no idea yet, ive been so busy, but its been a great run are, and weve gotten a lot done, so im pleased with it. Host well, speaking of that, youre regarded as one of the Telecommunications Experts in the congress because of your background in radio and being on the enc committee. Whats your legacy in telecommunications . Guest you know, thanks, peter. I dont spend a lot of time on that sort of stuff, but i would tell you together the committee did great work opening up spectrum. And really positioning the united states, i think, to have the spectrum when it needed it to advance the new technologies as they come along. And i remember when we passed some of these laws, there were parts of the band that nobody thought had any value that today is like the highest value real estate. Really Young American minds develop new technologies and innovation. I think making sure they have access to spectrum is kind of like, you know, build it and they will come. So i think thats part of it. I think implementing the 911 commissions personal recommendations to make firstnet spectrum available was really important for the curt of our country. Security of our country. I think that was critical. We got through the whole broadcast transmission, certainly in terms of the repack and all pretty successfully. And i know theres more weve worked on, but those are some of the highlights, i think. Host well, to help us explore some of the unfinished issues is chris mills rodrigo of the hill. Hey, thanks for having me. I guess i wanted to start with some fairly big news that broke last night, obviously on twitter, there were several accounts that were compromised including former president barack obama, the presumptive nominee joe biden and i just wanted to get your thoughts, representative, on this hack and sort of what it speaks Going Forward for the security of platforms like twitter. Guest well, i think it, once again, you sort of start by i saying if it can happen to barack obama, among others, it can happen to any american anywhere, anytime. And i think weve become aware of that. We know that there are bad actors out there. Some may be kids in a basement, others may be russian intelligence services. You see those news reports today as well that theyve been hacking into our covid scientists and companies. Which is really despicable. But we know this goes on. It goes on by the chinese, it goes on by the russians, it goes on by the iranians expect north koreans, and you can go on down a long list. But it also speaks to the importance of making sure our Telecommunications Networks are as safe and secure as possible, and i know were going to get into some of that discussion, and that each of us does things to secure our own systems. I remember, i think it was the wanna cry attack they discovered that, you know, apartment of the problem in some part of the problem in some Health Care Organizations was they hadnt provided the updates to, i think it was windows 95 or something. You had to go way back. And it was just vulnerabilities in the system, things that could have been patched, should have been patched, werent patched. So its a big, long array of issues when it gets into cybersecurity, but the threats are real. Were all vulnerable, and we need to do more about it. Great, yeah. Its one of these Telecommunications Security questions. Earlier this week the [inaudible] decision on allowing huawei into its noncore 5g network. It seems like a big win for the united states. Its been actively pushing and campaigning for our allies to avoid using the Chinese Company for their networks. What are your thoughts on that . Guest im really pleased that the United Kingdom took that state. I was surprised they didnt do it sooner, frankly. I was in meetings at nay toe and with various european nato and various European Countries representatives in the last year where we had these discussions, and its sort of stunning to me knowing what we know and knowing they know what we know to a large extent that they arent doing more to secure their networks from potential malign activity. And so im glad that theyre making this decision, that theyve made this decision and theyre moving forward. We have work to do here. As you know, we have a rip and replace bill thats now law, signed by the president. We need to get that funded so that our Communications Networks here are safer and more secure. So it seems like one of the steps that weve taken to secure American Networks and to make them more [inaudible] is the u. S. Telecommunications act which was passed out of your committee yesterday which would promote a shift to open rand network, can you explain what that is for someone who isnt involved in the Telecommunications Industry . Guest well, ill do my best to not get too deep into the weeds, but bottom line is it allows other entrepreneurs to work in this platform and continue to develop new systems, basically. So its not just the hardwired piece of equipment, if you will. And i think it allows us to have more flexibility, more innovators and more ability to make sure that its dynamic and that we can develop a Communications Network and enhance improvement all the time. As opposed to having a piece of hardware in place that the owner can send you with an update, shall we say, to change. And that update might not be what you want in that system, but there you are, youre look locked in. So i think the concept makes sense Going Forward. Im glad we moved that legislation unanimously out of the committee, and i hope to see it become law. Do you see this as an opportunity for American Companies to maybe catch up might not be the right term, but sort of assert themselves in the space of 5g which has kind of been dominated by huawei e and other Chinese Companies so far . Guest youre right, chris. Coming out of the 08 meltdown economically around the world, thats when china really put its muscle behind huawei, because everything over there is a stateowned enterprise one way or another that flows back into their military structure and funding. They have the ability to come in, they steal the technology or they come up with it themselves, and then they can undercut the market. You know, i have people here in my own district say, yeah, but its good equipment, it works well and its so reasonably priced. Well, what a great way to infiltrate. And so i think Going Forward, the ability to get that out of the systems and i would say not only compete on 5g, but leapfrog to whatever we call the next iteration, 6g, i dont care, is where we need to focus because where america has always had an advantage is when weve been able to lead in the innovation of the next technology. If we lose that edge, then were beholden to somebody else, and right now that somebody else is basically china. And i dont think thats good given their, what theyve just done in hong kong, given, you know, their track record, everything we know about them. That thats a bad place for america and free societies to be, is beholden to chinese equipment and everything that goes along with that. Host congressman, youve mentioned 5g. We seem to have been on the cusp of getting into 5g. Are we still on the cusp . [laughter] guest thats a a good question, peter. Yeah, i think were still on the cusp. I think theyre making progress, you know . Theyve been moving rapidly. I would say that i think the merger with tmobile and sprint freed up spectrum and capital and all, and i know that company not to put them ahead of anybody else, but theyve really been aggressive about trying to move forward in this space especially in some of the rural areas, at t, vising, the others verizon, the others are as well. Look, its essential. But part of it was somewhat build it as you go, adopting the technology developing the technology, getting towers up. But, you know, where theyre doing it, it seems to be deploying and working, and now its just a matter of getting it built out. And theyll continue to refine and improve and enhance, i know that. But i want us to be in the lead. And by us, sure, itd be great if it were all American Companies, but at least lets make them our allies and friends companies as well. And so i think there are partnerships to be had here internationally, but certain seasonally domestically wed like to certainly, domestically wed like to move forward. Weve got some catchup to do in terms of making that spectrum fully available and understanding the importance of getting it out there and getting the buildout going. We still have our buildout through arcane, expensive overregulation by the federal government. Siting and approval permitting processes. Host congressman, just to piggyback on an earlier question by chris, what do you think the reputation of Silicon Valley is right now in washington . Guest i think its twofold. One is theres great admiration for the innovation and the brilliance that just pulses in Silicon Valley are. Ive been out there and toured a lot of the companies, met with a lot of the leaders, and gosh, its so exciting to see whats being developed and what the future holds. Ill be careful how say this, and ill probably offend somebody, but theres also an arrogance that comes with that incredible productivity and innovation that tends to downplay the effect that they have the on Public Policy and people who are engaged in Public Policy. Ill just say that when that good, youre that big, youre that strong, youre that innovative, sometimes you think you can discard sort of public reaction or political reaction. I was in a meeting with one of the ceos with a democrat friend and colleague of mine who said, you know, you basically dont have any friends on capitol hill anymore. The right thinks youre biased to the left, and the left thinks that, you know, youre whatever. And thats a bad place to be, and thaw dont have to be there. If they were more transparent, if they were more fort coming and if forthcoming and if consumers knew what was really going on and had more choice and im speaking principally to some of the privacy issues and content issues, and weve got some proposals on those fronts i think theyd be in a better place. But theyre new, theyre exciting, theyre rich, theyre powerful, and, you know, some every company that gets in that place ends up eventually running into a Political Organization called the congress that goes, now hold on here a second, you dont get free reign. There are laws and there is public opinion. Thats kind of where theyre at. Host chris mills rodrigo. Yeah, continuing the discussion of privacy. Obviously, during the coronavirus pandemic theres been a lot of questions about Technology Companies having access to more sensitive data, health information. I know that you and your colleagues in the energy and commerce meal and democrats as well have introduced kind of competing legislation related to coronavirus. Could you sort of give us a little bit of information about where youre at in that process and [inaudible] as of now . Guest yeah, chris, i e wish we were farther along, you know . Its always easy when you have been the chairman and now as i call it, chairman in exile permanently since im retiring, heres what i would have done. Privacy would have been something that senator ricker and i would have focused on early on. Of course, my party lost the majority, and i lost the gavel. We were hoping to get ahead of the california privacy laws taking effect and taking a look at what worked and didnt work there and same with gdpr. And youve got the whole european issue now, as you know, on privacy. America should lead in this space. We should set a strong Privacy Protection for consumer law on the books. The longer we wait, the more other governments including the states, let alone foreign governments are going to meander around in a space, and youre going to have all this patchwork of competing requirements. And if america head in this space, as we should, as we should have, then we can help set International Standards that protect privacy and protect freedom of speech and really empower our American Companies to lean back and say, hey, i got what you want me to do, but im an american company. If i do that, im in violation of american law so, therefore, i cant do this. It would empower those executives and those teams to bring our have vision of freedom of speech and protection into other areas where that just simply doesnt exist. So we should have moved forward. I think weve had one hearing on privacy in this congress, and were basically at the end of this congress weve lost two years. And unfortunately now you have more and more patchworks, pretty hard to go back. And at the end of the day, a lot of it has to do with private right of action, the trial bar and all of that. I mean, thats a tumbling block on our Autonomous Vehicle legislation which, as you know, we passed in the house when i was chairman unanimously, and nothing moved in this congress. We ought to be leading on that. What do you think an Autonomous Vehicle really is . Its a computer on four wheels. It will be a datasharing device that takes you to a location. But along the way, its going to be accumulating data back and forth. Who do you want to set those standards and build that equipment . The united states. Or china . Id like the u. S. To lead in that. So wed all, you know, its kind of interesting, you think about the telecom act and some of those laws that were written in the 90s, everything was siloed, everybody stayed in their own business, and one of that exists today. So theres a broad need for updating our laws in all of these spaces. Great. I think, yeah, you sort of mentioned the area i want to get to next which is Autonomous Vehicles. It e seems like during a pandemic would be the ideal time to [inaudible] ability to transport people without exposing themselves. This is an area you mentioned your committees been working on for years. What step in the process are you now . Guest well [laughter] there you go, not very far down the road. Again, weve run into the liability issue and the trial lawyers. And we had that worked out in the house bill we passed two years ago. And again it was done unanimously. And there are ways to work through that, i think, its just nothing seems to be moving. Its really, really frustrating. And to your point, chris, during covid ive forgotten where it was, but there was a hospital that was using basically unattended vehicle capabilities, robot capabilities to move samples from wherever they were taking them from people being tested to wherever the test was being evaluated so you didnt have a human in that chain. Boy, you think about the future that lies ahead with Autonomous Vehicle technology to save lives from accidents by preventing them, by transporting people who cant otherwise or shouldnt otherwise drive themselves, theres a whole host of incredible things coming down the pike. Again, if we had a national law to do like we had in our bill a couple years ago, wed be leading in the u. S. I fear were going the lose this innovation edge if we dont have a National Standard. And the administrations tried. Ive worked with secretary chao and the president and others on this. Theyre doing what they can legislate or through the regulatory process. But theres only so much they can do there moving forward. We could do a lot more legislatively. You sent a letter to the industry asking for input on [inaudible] in may. What was the response like for that . Guest well, they gave us some good response back. I mean, you know, look, we want the vehicles themselves, you want to regulate how fast you go. Theres certain things statements can do, right in states can do, right . But what they want is the ability to do the testing and the ability to have enough vehicles to really get them out there and test them and have standards in place that we would have nhtsa and others set. You know, theyre looking for basic federal standardization so they can build to whatever that standard is. And so i think you see that in the proposals weve put forward to give them that framework. Thats really what innovators need. Give us the rules of the road and let are us go. Right now there are literally no rules of the road here that work for them in a meaningful way. [inaudible] go ahead, chris. Have you been seeing the lack of a federal law sort of stunt the development of these actual companies in technology . Guest well, you know, its always hard to say what would have happened if you didnt have Something Else and point to the essence of it. I think that the short answer is, yes. Its not that theyre not working on the technology itself, its about the deployment and all of that and where they can really drive forward and test more rapidly. And i think youre starting to see that happen more in other countries than here right now. But, again, youre not going to hold back american ingenuity, innovation and genius. Theyll continue trying to tinker and and toy and make things work. Its just we ought to have a streamlined process, we ought to have everybody understand, as i said, the rules of the add road here of the road here and our Autonomous Vehicle act would do that, drive act. Theres still a chance to get something done there. Kathy Morris Rodgers has been working on that but, gosh, were almost done with a twoyear process, and we passed this two, i think it was two years ago in july out of the house unanimously. So the frameworks there. To me, that would have been one i would have said, okay, lets go and get that going as soon as the new Congress Starts and then and remember, part of the fight was over heavy trucks. We didnt have jurisdiction over heavy trucks and, frankly, that brought in a whole debate about drivers and unions that we avoided. We went as far as sort of pickup trucks, if you will, light duty trucks. Heavy duty was over a Different Committee in the house. Now the senate has some heavy duty stuff in there but, boy, and then you get and im not picking on the teamsters because guess what one of the biggest jobs for guys over 50 is driving a truck. They dont want to see those jobs go away. So we kind of left the heavy truck argument out of it, lets get some standards in place for Passenger Vehicles and lightduty pickups, but host congressman walden, i want to circle back. You mentioned having a federal standard, and i just want to circle back very quickly to privacy. And if i missed this, i apologize. Is gdpr and californias private law now, are they becoming the standard across the country . Guest yeah, peter, i think they are. I think thats what were seeing, is absent a federal standard and given this new ruling overnight as we record this, the, you know, internationally now theyre saying youre not up to gdpr standards. Although theyre still trying to flesh out what gdpr standards are, and californias still fleshing out their rules, but everything has to follow everything even if its not written yet. So thats what happens now, youve got this default. And then youve got other states looking at this space as well. So thats where i think, again, we ought to pick and choose the best standards for both that secure privacy and transparency for consumers and get a National Standard in place. Host chris mills rodrigo, i apologize for interrupting. Oh, no, that was a great question. Its sort of, you hinted at one of, like, the main sticking blocks before, which is whether or not the federal standards should preempt state standards. The second issue of private rights, i would like to just get a little more into that. What is the opposition within your party [inaudible] action within federal privacy laws . Guest well, i kind of get down to the issue of patent trolls, if you will. We see what has happened in that space, and what i didnt want to do is create a patent troll bar for private rights of action on the privacy space. Because in my own opinion, theres a great place for trial lawyers. We love them when we need them, but there are a lot of them out there that are trolling around all the time and, frankly, its a real damper on innovation, and it misplaces capital, and its unnecessary if you have the right rules of the road and then have government enforcement if you violate the rules. Thats, as you know, pa part of what weve argued about some of these platforms, they need more transparency, and then we need an enforcement mechanism. If you live by the rules, fine. If you dont, lets have the ftc come after you or somebody else. But if you throw it open to sort of unlimited private right of action and class action suitses and all of that, i just think it depresses this part of innovation of america. Weve never needed this space to be more vibrant than we do right now, and so ive always been in the camp of lighter touch regulation but have a, have a hammer that can be dropped on somebody thats really misbehaving. But that should be well identified, well understood, and if you cross a bright line, you deserve what you get. Im all for it. But when you just open it up to anybody anywhere doing the private rights, it really becomes a burden and a depressant, and i think you chase capital somewhere else. And if you think about the Great Innovation out of Silicon Valley, going back to that question, i totally agree you know, youre the only element in the modern economy that doesnt have to go to the government to get approval and a permit to do what you do. Nobody thats developed an app had to go to uncle sam and apply and wait six months to get approval. And, you know, we cant put a power pole in the ground on federal land without doing nepa and three years of review and chance for litigation and, oh, my gosh, its the unbelievable. We have legislation to streamline connectivity across america, by the way. Now theyre starting to have to run into that. I just think you suffocate. Other countries dont have the same sort of trial bar private right action in the law. They have strict enforcement, and they have penalties that have teeth, and the rest plays occupant. And so out. Were never going to be them, and theyre never going to be us, but we dont have to pile on here. Host gentlemen, we have about five minutes left. Thats perfect because i just wanted do can sort of what your priorities are for the next couple months as the Congress Winds down. Guest yeah, chris, i think a couple really important ones. One, i would argue that in the pandemic, covid19 environment in which were all not only living, but doing this show, i think its collapsed Technology Acceptance by about a decade. You know, were all doing this now. It would have filtered out over the course of a decade. So youre seeing collapse of technology and acceptance and industries that are being, you know, demolished along the way in retail and Everything Else that is happening overnight. I think you see telehealth really taking off. If you ask seema verma at cms, shell tell you they had about a 3 or 2 telehealth and medicare in january and now its over 28 . It should keep going, but that means we need more connectivity. We need to fund the rip and replace. We need to fund the mapping so we build out where there isnt highspeed Data Available in the country. Weve got 21 million americans including many on tribal lands that lack access to Highspeed Communications capabilities. This is going to be essential for health care. Its going to be essential for learning as statements and localities states and localities are trying to figure out how are we going to educate our children in a covid environment. Some may be fine in reopening, some may never be able to open this next School Year Just because of everything that goes along with that. And to say, oh, by the way, parent, its all going to be online, have a good run at that, what happens if they dont have a laptop, you know, or the connectivity . So i think we really have to focus on connecting america and then making sure we have secure Telecommunications Networks and do all the cybersecurity stuff. And then, yeah. So i think those are probably a couple of the big ones, id say, Going Forward. Host congressman, describe your district, and would you describe it as rural in and whats the broadband penetration out there . Guest hey, peter, only in the urban area would i describe it as rural. So my district, if it were over the east coast, would stretch from the Atlantic Ocean to ohio. It is larger than the land maas, the land mass of any state east of the mississippi river. And so its 69,341 square miles. Your viewers can look it up and see. Ive won many a bet with my colleagues about my district being larger than my state. Nobody understands, weve only got three states out here on the west coast, then you get up to alaska, and its pretty big too. So its the seventh largest district. Its very rural. Weve got a couple of urban areas with 100,000, 200,000 people in there, but otherwise its spread out. Wheeler county, theres one person for every 9 miles of power line. Theyve got three counties with no hospitals or doctors. So this issue of connectivity has always been enormously important to me. And some of that youre going to do on fiber. Some its is so remote, actually, i have literally cowboys on horses with satellite phones because thats the, just for safety purposes, you know . Its just kind of an interesting thing when you are think about it when you think about it. So its a big, wide open space. And these issues really a matter to me about getting ive got areas, you know, when i first came into office never had telephone service. And we punched through on some Regulatory Approvals with the Forest Service to get the lines through. The irony is when they got telephone service, by then it was fiber. So this little town that had nothing, all of a sudden they had fiber access. So, i mean, it was amazing. So its a great place. Host so is broadband expansion and infrastructure an issue to you . Guest absolutely. I think its bigger than just an infrastructure issue, peter. I think its an american issue, its a connectivity issue. Its about everything from education and health care to our democracy. It is and, frankly, in this covid environment not to overwork this, but in this covid environment, its an economic issue in the sense that more and more people say, you know, i dont i can do work if anywhere . Really . Okay. Maybe ill go out in a smaller community, in a rural area with a great lifestyle. Ive got to have bandwidth. I was in a little town that was having these issues in my district, and theyve been cut off, and it was a capacity issue. I said when we went to leave, we had to pay cash for the gasoline because the gas stations internet was down and they couldnt take credit cards. So weve got some work to do. Host congressman greg walden, former chairman of the energy and commerce committee, now the top republican, retiring after this term. Chris mills rodrigo of the hill, thank you both for being on the communicators. Guest thank you. Thanks for having me. Cspan has unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the Supreme Court and Public Policy events. You can watch all of cspans Public Affairs programming on television, online or listen on the free radio app and be part of the National Conversation through cspans daily Washington Journal Program or through our social media feed. Cspan, created by americas Cable Television companies as a Public Service and brought to you today by your television provider. Senate Appropriations Committee chair Richard Shelby officially are introduced a 306 billion emergency Coronavirus Relief plan in a written statement. Here is Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell talking about that package