That means a lot that you are here with us. Especially raising money for such great causes. I want to think first of all the best bookstore in all the land, Harvard Bookstore. I want to thank my friend jeff for hosting this discussion. The panelists are all authors of some of the most important works ever written on race and the american experience. And i strongly, strongly encourage you to purchase their text and other work you are interested in from Harvard Bookstore its another independent booksellers. I also want to think of other hosts, the incredible Boston Review and the editors. All of us have been proud contributors to the rich intellectual condition curated by Boston Review. I just think it is really important that in this moments before our countrys more famous publications were willing to run pieces on police, prison abolition, racial and ethics of resistance and market violence, Boston Review really provided one of the major forms for these ideas to be debated with seriousness and subtlety and it still does. There are not many publications that can match the review for publishing thinkers, to give space about black liberation throughout the spectrum or insisting on the significance of race to broader questions of justice, democracy and citizenship. It is a real honor to be here as the panel, said by Boston Review. Smacked and just as a reminder as serena said contributions from this evening up you continue to contribute all go to three important organizations. Dickel resistance is the leading voices of the abolition movement, National Bailout and organizations devoted to ending mass incarceration in the practice of pretrial detention. And one womans love. Its empowering black women and girls in stockton, california. So our format today will be about 40 to 45 minutes of discussion that i will moderate between the panelists. Before i take questions from you all, the audience. Please use a q a button below. And send us your questions all throughout the panel get try to get as many as possible. Now ive been excited about this for weeks. As far as i am concerned its hard to imagine a panel of scholars more exciting than the one you are about to hear today. And i apologize for not being able to go into long introductions because all of these people are so, so accomplished would take up all the time. So want you to look them up we finished talking today and hear more about their work. But im just going to go in alphabetical order for quick introductions. So first we have a woman i think is the most influential and important historian of the state in our generation. And newly appointed professor of law, associate professor of africanamerican studies and history at yale university, my dear sister Elizabeth Hinton is author of the Phi Beta Kappa prizewinning book from the war on poverty to the war on crime, the making of mass incarceration in america. Second, we have one of the few towering interpreters of africanamerican history, ucla gary nash professor of american history, robin bg kelly his classic works hammer and how, race rebels, real dreams and awardwinning biography have fundamentally reshaped how we write and think about race, class, gender, and resistance. Third, we have my dear brother harvard professors of the practice of philosophy cornell west who in my mind is a true intellectual giant. His writings and philosophy, social theory of muscle criticism especially keeping faith deliverance race matters and democracy matters amount to an indispensable archiver thinking through the spiritual, cultural and political crises in the modern age. And last but certainly not least we have keeangayamahtta taylor, who in the past few years has become arguably the most prominent black radical thinker of our generation that she is pretty some of the most widely read and debated reflections on contemporary politics and the movement for black lives. Assistant professor of africanamerican studies at princeton, the works include from black lives matter to black liberation how we get free black feminism and the Pulitzer Prize finalist race for profit how banks in the Real Estate Industry undermine black ownership. This is an Amazing Group and without any further ado i hope you give them a round of applause at home and lets dive into what they have to say. So let me begin with robin. Who in a recent interview you gave with the intercept, rest and argument that i thought was really provocative i wanted thought could orient our discussion today. You drew on reverend barber who was one of the leaders of Poor Peoples Campaign on saint we are living through a third reconstruction or at least an attempted third reconstruction. Im just curious as to what you mean by that phrase and how you think it helps us understand whats at stake in the present . Rights. Thank you. Its good to be with this Amazing Group of people. First of course reverend barber had the construction i would also give credit to angela davis. When angela published the book the abolition of democracy and told me what she is proposing was recognizing what was identified proposing it for the third period in sums you look at attempting to expand social democracy. And with the request under jim crow disenfranchisement. The second was the attempt to expand democracy for everyone. Again based on the kind of constitutional understanding the promise of america would be fulfilled. So this fundamental claim that we have to tweak our struggle and provide this kind of rights that were not provided before. Part of that includes economic justice. Matt dont issues of housing, the third reconstruction i would argue is poverty but its attempt to remake not just the United States but the world, recognizing that this country in the modern world was found in his possession by supremacy, gendered and this abolition is not simply abolition that informs its not simply tweaking the constitution. Somewhat better jails, better policing better policing better remaking justice as a whole and by justice we dont just mean criminalization but creating an affirmation an affirmative form of justice of operations four years of oppression and also just really creating new possibilities for life. To do with the catastrophe of the environments. To deal with seeing the body from all of the constraints of gender and sexual norms. That this is a much wider sense of freedom based on product but the last thing going to say about this with reconstruction there is always backlash. And so the first and construction didnt just fail it was completely overthrown. And what we are witnessing now, facing now is the potential for that reversal to that overthrow if you can achieve some of things im mentioning. Were facing a future that can either be liberatory or fashion. Theres Something Else in between that. But that sort of how i see it in terms of the opportunities really unprecedented. Host so seeing how Central Prison and Police Abolition is think whats really interesting about the last few weeks is that these ideas have been more central to debate than at any time in my memory or in american history. But even with the insurgents of that line of critique into the public sphere, a secret that large segments of black communities are, to put the point politely ambivalent or at least afraid of the implications of the demands for defending the police or abolishing the police. They know the history elizabeth that youve written a lot about, selective hearing calls for reform. And theyre worried that people are only going to here defend the police not invested anything else. They dont have the luxury of treating Community Violence in the four weeks following George Floyds killing. Murders that chicago road over the numbers new york and baltimore saw 31 and 17 jump respectively. I think one thing that concerns people in the community is the violence seems someplace different than the violence a lot of you have written about from 1990s which is more tightly tied to the drug economy. And they are concerned about what to do but the possibility of abandonment in a time of posterity and what to do with crime in the midst of these demands for abolition. So what i am hoping for is elizabeth and keeangayamahtta taylor if you could speak to the crime and violence these people call for defending the police are abolition can give to persuade more members of workingclass black communities to adopt their views and support the fullest reconstruction robin outlined . Guest im not entirely convinced there isnt what exactly robin is talking about in urban communities. An Organization Provides aftercare and services to families affected by violence. See factor place with higher rates of poverty and gun violence we think of like places like chicago. Especially towards violence those are being relayed are completely denied any kind of compensation. So that is where the owl movement is into this void of funding for Services Offering memorial services, empowerment , healing circles any of these Community Problems have been operating 25 million for fighting against getting a tan gang violence. Think already birthing a ship like the owl movement and other organizations like that are the future. We are seeing a shift from things that are premised on violence to care. That reimagining what justice really means, one that is premised on Community Share with our communities is what abolition is all about. Just briefly, i think it is really i think the fact that were having these conversations about black communities within the larger context is really important. Thats the social harm we see in a vacuum is because there is a cycle with collective Community Violence have very often harm themselves, right . But we need to be asking is why is it in communities where police, surveillance, incarceration, people of color or more likely to die prematurely. This process really begins as the Police Forces are militarizing in the 1960s, right . And we get rebellions against external forces. Thousands of rebellions. Not just during the long hot summers of the 1960s, right . Not just in the big cities. The hard question we need to frame, even if conversations about social harm or violence in more recent years is how they are external collective violence against state forces towards internal. There is a three three prong that emerges in the federal government on color. There is a struggle state forces theres also struggle that emerges black committees themselves against one another. To these conversations cant be separated from police and incarceration itself. Especially since incarceration is the root of many of these informal economies. In the collective assignment provided the memes by which many of these groups could organize. And to facilitate the economy in prison, its not the visitors its the guards in the police we need to be asking how this violence precipitates violence. And again there is the condition that theres a lot to say about this. But the first thing i would say is that it is a real problem in the community. Working to impress black people. Theres no point in time to sugarcoat it or try to describe it is something other than what it is but what i do think is important to say that this debate this discussion but what is proceeding as even in terms of the issue of Police Reform think part of the reason this gravitated so quickly to defend the police the failures of the reform in 2014 and 2015 our news. But they are hard to explain away and dismissed. With elected officials typically try to do over time. The kind of distort the history of the failures of their own reform. Ill remember the neutrality of body camera system is going to solve the problem. You know, more black police officers, Better Community all the stuff the same recycled arguments we have had for the last 50 years since the current commissions and a few new and sprinkled in during the first generation of black lives matte matter. We have seen them and they continue to fail. Thats one part by the second part is imagined we spent such a grotesque amount of money on police and yet here we still are talking about the rise, the wave of crime. The ebb and flow. In chicago they spent 40 of the operating budget on police. And we are talking about the spike in crimes during the summer of the past few weekends. So clearly, investing exclusively in policing has not solved the problem. And i think the lack of revolution because of that is open the possibility for a new formulation, new ideas around this. I think part of it is thing that we have spent the last generation defending public education. Defending public hospitals. Defunding public libraries. Defending the entire Public Infrastructure that makes cities operate. And that doesnt work. Its produced in the second decade of the 20th century, the same kind that we were dealing with throughout the three quarters of the 20th century. So maybe we need to do Something Else. Maybe we need to do something different. I think there is a lot of space for support, deliberation, conversation about this issue. But the Immediate Response of the Political Class is to either ridicule the ideas, to dismiss it out of hand and to bring it back to this narrow framework of police or no police. So youre talking to ordinary people who are dealing with crime on a daily basis in their neighborhood, and thats the options, police or no police, and you automatically foreclose different kind of conversation. What we are saying is that yes we want to redirect the tens of billions of dollars that goes to police said that we live in cities where Public Health workers are dumping garbage bags and reusing masks during a pandemic. In the police look like they have out of some hollywood feature film about futuristic policing 100 years from now. We need to change the calculus. Horus the school they get funding. Their investment and jobs. Theres an investment in healthcare. If there is investment in completely different quality of life. I guarantee you if you put that in the hole. If you bring the discussion around that, should we be paying the police to check peoples answers all of the neighborhood . Or should we be investing and transforming the institution that make up public life in the city . That is a nobrainer. Its not a contest. But we cant explain the debate that way. Thats part of what the urgency of these kinds of conversations is. Its that there is an ideological war prayed theres an ideological battle. We have been told that there is not enough money. Weve been told budgets have to be cut. But that somehow never applies to the police buried only applies everything else. Sourcing we have to change that. Lets change the discussions lets have the ideological debate because i am confident in our side. I dont know about theirs. I think this raises the next Crucial Point which is the picture you are painting as one sounds a lot like the democratic socialist vision that is animated much of the resurgent left over the last few years, that anchored a certain wing of the Bernie Sanders campaign which is the most successful democratic socialist campaign in the u. S. History. But again it leads us back to the crucial problem which is that when those ideas were on the table in the electoral aren arena, they lost in no small part to two black workingclass voters voting and said for joe biden. Brother weston. You put a lot of blood, sweat, tears into the Sanders Campaign pretty bent board of dsa for decades. You have been making this case in churches and communities. What is your autopsy of the standard defeat . And its prospects forward youve invaded democratic socialist vision and how do you overcome the resistance . Even if its just strategic resistance, thats really crucial there. How do you overcome the strategic resistance of voting back on your account that be more profoundly well served by this vision of politics when they instead seem to trust the judgment of James Clyburn . Guest first i want to first say i want to salute you my brothers. To be in dialogue with my brothers and sisters hear each one of them is such a profound source of inspiration for me, not just this scholarship at who they are as human beings and i salute for serena as well. I think we are dealing with in part though, brother, is the massive failure of black leadership in the failure against you to be able to enter in such a way we can convince our brothers and sisters of all colors but disproportionately chocolates, the vision analysis and kind of work we need on the ground that puts poor working people at the Center Remains on the fringes. Instead weve got neoliberal black leadership and neoliberal black intellectual they are cheerleaders that dont allow the kind of vision analysis and then when the social movement hit they want to act as if they are at the center of it rather than in fact they have been on the other side. So we have to be able to tell our brothers and sisters of all colors the truth. And the truth is always a very painful one. And the truth is that i think we are living in an undeniably decaying, declining american empire with the militarized state with the militaristic abroad and africa, dropping bombs in the middle east and presence in latin america, 800 military units every dollar that goes to the military your talk should talk about defend the pentagon paid by the same time you got a wall street century economy that bernie was talking about. That brother bernie was talking about. And but our leadership is tied to wall street. So that wall street domination is a precondition of most of our neoliberal black leadership. So we cant even get out the fundamental source. But then we got a culture where everything for sale. Everybody is for sale including the media and education for it and therefore the notion of an hegarty. Notion of honesty, notion of taking a risk. Notion of pushing against the grain is in terms of preoccupation of what the culture is about. Which is money, spectacle and image so that we have to be honest enough to tell our fellow citizens that this is the larger context. This is the great legacy and others, that is the tradition if we come and given this particular element that means we have to be willing to say low and behold. Weve got to many leaders, too many intellectuals to many artist common to many entertainers who are not open to this kind of vision and analysis but brother robby calls it freedom dreams using our imagination to authorize an alternative vision and reality of the present as it were. I will say this in conclusion that this for me has written the two best people of what ive talked about i want folks to go out and reddit. How is the name of that . How do you change america . Yes how do we change america. How do we change america any other black politics in their in the New York Times now how you got into those neo is a beautiful thing. With your voice, your voice is so prophetic in that way. We need more of those voices but rooted in truth telling, integrity, honesty so we can convince folks that if black people for example are the most progressive black voting bloc in the american empire but they cannot support the most progressive candidate in history when it comes to the president like Bernie Sanders and something is happening. Thats a key moment. That something just aint right. The neoliberal of our leadership is getting in the way. We have to be honest about that. Critical with each other in a loving way. This is a great transition for it i really, really want to talk about the peace of the times which i think is really important as well. You said something there that really struck me. You say that class tensions among africanamericans have produced new faultlines that the romance of racial solidarity simply cannot overcome. And you call for a new era of black politics. But i want to press two questions that i hope you can clarify here. The first is, as this class fracturing is so profound that it cant overcome the romance of racial solidarity cant overcome it, why call for any new black politics at all . Why not just pronounce the whole edifice of black solidarity dead once and for all . So you might think for example the whole rhetoric of our shared universal racial vulnerability to Police Violence and the appeal to black solidarity that kind of framing engenders is not just analytically miss guided trips gears number of White Brothers and sisters out of police, native american brothers and sisters killed by the police, latin brothers and sisters killed by the police. You might think its not just analytically misguided but its politically dangerous you think someone like adolph reed would say these frames allow for black elites to redirect the moral revulsion at Police Violence toward diversifying Corporate Board seats and affirmative action in the late education, things like that the dont the fundamental problems of economic democracy. Why dont we just give up the language of black politics altogether so that when you speak out in the New York Times, everybody can see more clearly whats at stake when you criticize Something Like the congressional black caucus. even when there are tensions amongst black people, even among the black Political Class is black, theres still vulnerability to racism even when they might mitigate it. I can be extremely critical of someone like the mayor of washington d. C. It doesnt change the fact that politics are liberal and she is asked by the Republican Party and it is racist and sexist and the reason she can have them among ordinary black people is because of that. That possibility of what he talked about in swing states, it still exists. Its different than the preCivil Rights Era where of course there has always been that between africanamericans but jim crow helped compress the black community into singular spaces for the has to be the means of coexistence. So things dont exist to that degree but theres still sympathy that exists among black people. Barack obama explains this benign presidency when it came to improving the condition of black people. Its still incredibly popular among africanamericans. His wife Michelle Obama is incredibly popular among africanamericans so i do think the further we get away from the period of civil rights and local insurgencies that erupted during that period, the more the black communities have become entrenched. Start thinking about the article probably three weeks before it came out and what i originally was going to begin with in the article was the mayor of new orleans, cattrall, who was in the midst of breaking strike of black sanitation workers by using and present black laborers to break the strike of black garbage workers for an increase of pay and hazard pay because their lives are at risk because of covid. Some of it is provocation, i dont think were there because theres always been, at least over the past years, black politics from above and below. So we are seeing the emergence of black politics from below, the development of the black political left with the movement for black lives in the Organization Began to form the last five or six years. It points to attention the isaac is much more ingrained in becoming deeper as you continue to have black political leaders managing the crisis within cities of suburban areas where black people live that workingclass black people is competition black municipal managers. That is the. [gun shots] dynamic we have to look into which creates possibility of new alliances you described in your question because i do think one part of the reason i think we are seeing a large participation over the month of june in convincing people that black lives matter and they cannot continue to prevail. I also think it speaks to the way White Millennials have come to the realization that their lives dont matter in this country either. Its a life of debt, jobs that allow them to never pay off the whole premise of the American Dream has been lost for generations of white people as well. They call it death by despair. Opioid addiction, alcoholism and suicide but whatever you want to call it, represents a crisis and what this country is to stand for. In the black movement, it shows a potential way out and thats what attracted white people to the protest which seems like a more viable alternative and perhaps joe biden is. The fragmentation of black politics and post Civil Rights Era and ways in which these new movements have offered new lines of solidarity amidst broader socioeconomic behaviors. The failure of racial ideology in this moment, a fracture solidarity along its normal online is really well taken. It takes me back to the early moments of the post civil era that the moment work a lot of the dynamics rolling out gets crystallized. This is the first time where people are having to rethink the relationship in a systematic fashion from below and black elected officials. The a lot of reflection in this moment in the debate and i thought it would be a good thing for us to discuss of it and i was helping robin, that you might say of it about two questions on my mind, in the wake of black power, there were two criticisms on the left that had a force coming out of it. The emphasis on cultural politics and symbolics was easily modified and turned into another consumer capitalist lifestyle. Might think where i get notes about how much like lives matter in amazons while having awful policies toward black workers, we are in a similar moment which leads me back to a thing about new orleans, where his labor and all of this . One thing the left has pressed the black arrow on, and the fight between the different organizing models, black power activists have pushed for labor unions to be the major vehicle of black struggle in this moment, if they didnt lose in that moment, they certainly have in the public imagine coming out of it and im curious on your sense of those critiques and whether weve learned lessons of black power for. Is a Great Questions and to go back, 1967, of course corporations are quick to seize the language black lives matter, that happens all the time but i want to go back to a couple of examples the workers strike, i want to remind us 1977, under nina jackson, he broke the sanitation workers strike there. He fired all the strikers and he was the model for reagan so in some respects, in terms of even todays liberal classified in terms of politics, you can see that and even earlier than that, you see a real struggle over who represents black liberation. It became the one of black relations. The new politics conference and 67, doctor king was shot down because he presented a cost analysis against the leaders who pushed and becomes he pushed an antiwar position. A former radical reflective politics the democratic social politics. He was shut down by black power. I think it is getting enough homework to know the relationship between those people who identify with black power and the labor movement. There is ample evidence in detroit between workers that came out that movement and black Workers Congress that also came out of the league where they built the most revolutionary movement in history. Antiracist, focusing on workers control and build alliances on American Workers and even with white workers. They didnt agree on everything push reparations as a way to build black working class and it wasnt just about people having cadillac, is about losing capital, the states legitimacy and billing lines in the progressive movement. Because of the failure of white workers to work program, not all white workers, but the other reason was a coalition of partners, many are black and brown in the 1970s, the new way for elected officials for that program. They were defeated by black bear and black members of the city council so you see the tensions even then. The final thing, when you look at the role labor plays, the most important labor union movement. The 60s and 70s, i think was this organization. Here we are, july 20 is the date strike of black lives. Thats coming up, people need to know about. I could say more about that but its an attempt to build, to really highlight the fact that the Center Workers are not getting support and protection and also push back against the idea that corporations black lives matter as a mental pressing and exploiting and undermining workers and putting them in danger. Having said that, i want to focus on this organization because the essential purpose include reproductive work and labor. It exists in some respect, theyve been fighting this fight to recognize it as the central work. Id argue the movement is much closer to the National Wealth for Rights Organization and the other campaign. The organization under leadership of taylor and kramer, theyve been fighting 25 years against water shutoff and privatization of water and they need to be held up because they are fighting for environment and peoples ability to introduce themselves as human beings. His basic needs so the history even in black power of black working class organizations tries to push a radical agenda and abolitionist agenda they end up being pushed out so instead of thinking of as we are starting to see a divide, i think the divide is there but its a divide we have to Pay Attention to. We have to figure out who like cornell said, if you have politicians who will claim speaking on behalf of oppressed people, the Insurgent Movement thats been there for a long time and continues to push for their agenda, the return for all other than one that builds this multicultural think so i know i said a lot. Want to make sure all of our audience, we got over 800 people in attendance, i hope you all send questions in. Im about to open up to everyone. I want to ask one last question to elizabeth. Just so we can get to the audience if you could be brief but i thought it would be good following up on robin, you might see the era of experimentation that robin is talking about is as a failure of federal policy to support grassroots organizations and create more democratic space for an agonistic democratic republic public. These organizations are contesting things happening in wealth that bureaucracies public parks departments and police and youve written a lot about the demise of that project. The final question is, for you, is this a moment to turn back toward federal support that kind of investment . Is that a reason to persuade activists who see no interest in working alongside the state at this time to give up the purest dance and be more willing to experiment with the idea of maximum feasible participation that you talk relatively finally about in your book and the New York Times . Part of it is people have lost investment in the state for many reasons, the state has not worked for them and there was a moment where the outcome has been different. I think that is one of the real tragedies of that era, there was this window where the federal government was granted autonomous organizations directly and i think as robin said, every time is been an extension of citizenship for abolitionist tendencies from slavery to jim crow, is insidious disease rooted in racism and capitalism takes hold of new criminal laws, new surveillance, segregationist regime takes hold. Thats what the failure was, even though the federal government was instrumental in securing the successful aspects of the programs, building up black institutions so the federal government has been this difficult or troubled ally in terms of bringing about Racial Justice but has played a role. Weve been talking about the need to move away from these liberal governance thats restricted all of us and new surge of cases we are seeing and conversations within the party, one hopes if we can bring about a governance what we have been talking about, guaranteed income from a universal care, addressing the climate crisis, we can return to this vision for the federal government should be funding these local efforts. We are going to address and Reimagine Society and where weve been talking about and we will address these issues and Racial Injustice in a new way, weve got to feed power to people and begin to facilitate the redistribution by empowering the people to solve their own problems on their own terms. Got to be prepared to give something up in doing that. And imagine a different way that federalism and government can be structured. Thank you all so much for this. Theyre getting a ton of questions. Just to try to get as many as we can, we will try to keep our answers short and everybody should feel free to jump in. Thank you, liz, for ending is so strong. One is a pushback, this description of blm is a movement from below. I read the question as raising elise the problem of what would make it a movement from below . Its obviously the candidates many of the leaders supported and have it picked up. You might think is another question about how to think about legitimacy given the new structure of Movement Politics so i remember new york being stuck in traffic on the bridge because there was a protest from a black lives Matter Organization she didnt know about. There is funding given, she will be the person to receive that. Everything about the legitimacy questions of the new Movement Structure and whether it is appropriate to describe it as a movement from below . I think theres a danger in looking at quantity as opposed to the quality of analysis and vision and how we are able to move from one to the next. What i mean is for those of us who believe black people will never be free in a predatory capitalist civilization was linked around the world, levels of inequality and most of the money and policing activities rather than the billing social needs. Thats a vision and analysis we ought to fill out this crucial matter who is out there. You could have masses out there supporting fashion. The numbers here. Part of the problem of losing our sense of morality tied in decency and imagination so we think its a matter of just was out there, are particularly identity rather than the quality and level of what people see, analyze and what people are willing to sacrifice. I know we dont have time to get into it, but you got to play yourself and learn how to be nonconformist and follow through on what you understand for people. It is supremacy. America remained predatory capitalist. I am with like agenda. We know they tied together but we have to be honest about that and that the lens in which we need to look at. I would say any movement is more two things. Any movement is more in its structure and leadership. I think if you go out to these demonstrations which the New York Times tells us is involved more than 26 Million People but these are ordinary people at these protests. These are people who have been locked out of power. We had an uprising in the u. S. This is a movement from outside and from below. You are there even within black lives matter itself, regardless of the particular position of individuals who might make up an organization that this is a movement transforming they can access of American Society and stand outside of the realm of power. So of course with any movement, there are questions about democracy, accountability, who speaks for whom and in some ways, these questions were unresolved in the first generation of black lives matter, they were made unresolved in this manifestation of protests but i would say every social movement has to wrestle with those questions and how its political agenda is formed and how the relationships, the membership and leadership and everybody wants to say their leaders, their leaders were accountable and leaders who are not. Every movement has to figure that out but those questions dont diminish or transform the quality of, or the way we can understand and characterize this as a bottom up movement is trying to transform fundamental axis of the u. S. Next question, i thought this was interesting so there is a question on the table about the framing of the third reconstruction. Theyre asking that so much momentum in the Democratic Party left wing of the Democratic Party is around the new deal as an anchoring frame or policy. The green new deal, the new new deal. Whats the distinction . What is the benefit and framing things around the idea of reconstruction rather than the idea of the new deal . To add that, his reparations part of the discussion . Is a central piece of why it might matter to take that alternative framing . The new deal was not about reconstruction and revolution, it was the managing and transfer of wealth for the working people without them being in leadership positions. We talk about reconstruction, we have to be revolutionary calling for fundamental transformation fundamental transformation was a transfer of power, wealth and respect. It was much deeper in that so that right now, the ruling class which is the Democratic Party establishment the fascist wing which was trump and his folks, not of them want to talk about fundamental transformation. They are still talking about transmitting the system. Working people being in position of power for they are shaping their destiny and having significant control. Its an important distinction to make and liberalism was about social programs and siding with the flag and supported the vietnam war instead of full employment, is calling for workers power. Peoples power. Power to the people. The black panther party. They were focused where they should have been focused. The 25th chapter of matthew. Ill stop there. Robin, you want to jump in what can i ask another question . Ill add, he said it better than anyone. [laughter] is a question on the table, you wrote so powerfully about and a lot about, something i wanted to ask you about for a long time, whats the role of internationalism in this moment, what should be the movement for black lives orientation toward internationalism and geopolitics . I will put a little more, another thing on it that is like you to speak to. For those of us who studied the black power era, we have an understanding of black internationalism thats operating in a cold war perspective. The thing true about the soviet union and struggles of that moment, they are aspiring to egalitarian ideal. Right now, geopolitics over the different, anchored by states that do not openly do those ideals. China is not engaged right now in egalitarian or democratic products. Much of the middle east is not engaged in the democratic projects. Fascist movements are all over europe, clamoring for power. It is a different political round some curious if somebody has thought about the internationalism, is there anything we can do its more than showing moral solidarity . Is the power to the International Realm . And make the distinction black lives matter, knows the coalition, the different organizations, many of which are engaged in International Relationships in solidarity. It is hard to understand mobilizing new orleans without seeing the role the organizations played into with venezuela, for example. Even right now, whether its brazil or france, all over the globe, the murder of george floyd and surrounding murders have touched a nerve which is why the demonstrations were international but tied to organizing work from other organizations involved with black lives but theyve been trying to build labor relationship across the board, in china, haiti, these are the alliances and solidarity is already being built ahead of time thats why the construction ideal is not helping with the vision. Its a Global Vision because of the global economy. Add to that, he said it perfectly, the distinction between a movement and the political party, it was the destruction. It embodied aspects of it. The Democratic Party was deafening not the reconstruction movement. Part of what we have to do to reconstruct the story is organizations and movements that may not necessarily be mass movements but its one that profound radicals, one not moving toward the state but possibly the dismantling that they didnt know it. I draw attention to this, the wonderful collection of interviews, theyve embodied the abolitionist project. Anything less than socialist alternatives, they paid attention to violence that no one is paying attention to. Follow up on robin, one of the things that struck me most about your remarks and the conversation is this line about you got u. S. Hospital workers dressed in garbage bags and shredded yankee jerseys of the Police Looking like they stepped out of a michael bay movie. It is a time of humility for a lot of us in the u. S. Who hadnt already got ahead of everybody. A lot of us havent gone there in a moment of real self inventory and reflection. Im wondering for someone like you without so much about the contemporary movement, is there something we could learn from struggles elsewhere around the world . Its one of the questions on the table im getting. Not just moving beyond u. S. Focused but what can we learn from a place of community humility about whats working in other countries to change this country . One of the things thats different now, aside from the collapse of these movements which has shaped the third world solidarity of the previous period, the way that globalization has bound together the ruling elites of different countries, the g7 or g8 and the way they have procured around a set of political and economic principles that get fused across the world. I think there are several different examples that i think we can look to. There are movements for housing rights in berlin, for example, after a long campaign, activists in berlin were able to get the government there to impose a five year refreeze so landlords could not impose those. There different kinds of movements for housing rights across europe. Their struggles around abortion rights and against violence in south america for examples that have been able to become mass movements. Some of the struggle around what robin talked about is the politics of reproduction have in europe, where the Womens International protest has been literal strikes with mass movements demonstrations involving hundreds of thousands of people some of this, we can look to in an aspirational way as to what size and influence our movements need to get to as a way to transform politics but also speaks to distort issues we have in this country involving the labor movement, that involves the institutionalization of social democracy and socialist organizations in the first place. Historic issues in the u. S. With the development and cohesion of a political left and how one does that of the american states. To all questions that not necessarily other places have figured out but different traditions that level of organization is more advanced that we can learn from the highlights the deficits we suffer from and have to fix and what we are seeing now is we dont have forever to figure it out. Some of the things we thought were somewhere in the distance whether it was climate and temperature of planets for important issues to take on with their issues in the future, the future is now, it is here. There is an airborne pandemic with no end in sight. The reality is, we dont know where this is going. There is urgency for being serious about these questions and engaging them. Their particular struggles we can look at but not enough to overcome the differences we have here that we, as those of us trying to reconstitute the left to see as as part of the left have to take on, head on. I dont know if you wanted to add anything else, i know youve been looking at Prison Reform movements, abolition movements globally, if you want to add anything else, think about particularly as we take on the lesson from other places. One of the things month anything covid19 is unmasked is the feedback our prison system is brought for inequality and Health Disparities and has undergirded the fact that the transition to mass incarceration as a mechanism for social control is a massive failure and the fact that prisons are the hotspots for which covid is spreading, you have tens of thousands of people who are stuck behind bars and are now older men and women and are now in prison getting covid so again, as we think about Reimagining Society and what Public Safety means, in terms of defunding police, and needs to be linked with thing about incarceration and the anchor of these systems we are talking about so the idea of putting Police Forces in half as an immediate necessity should be paired with cutting the prison population in which has been a discussion weve been having for a while. What kind of resources does this open up in providing a new kind of way of approaching issues of justice and safety . One based on here and not violence because the prison is an institution of continued violence. We are seeing is underscoring that. I just followed the other day, prison is 550 more likely to contract covid and three 10 100 , dying at three 100 the rate of others and backgrounds so its stunning, there is no way to segregate these social problems the way social policy was built upon. The time is now to dramatically wrestle with the question that confronts us. We have time for one last question and i want to allow all of you to speak to it but ill post it to you first. As it comes up throughout the discussion, one of the things that has people excited about this moment but also a bit wary is the enormous enthusiasm among millions of nonblack people, particularly young white people for protest, supporting the demands of blm, for having arrived reckoning with the catastrophic past of this nation and theres a question that always comes up, its come up here about what allies can do with non black allies in this moment and i want to add a bit about, what kinds of practices should allies or people engaging in solidarity be wary of . s a lot of things that are being marketed or championed under the name of authentic ally ship. It is an important time to signal to people what is and is not in undermining use of the time and energy and effort of Emotional Energy so i was hoping you might speak to that and let everybody else go. Weve got to go back to the history. We look at the lives of john brown and joshua, is a lot of them in the struggle but they didnt have difficulty about white fertility. They had difficulties about integrity. This was about what it means to have solidarity and that is important because if civilization has a genius of making every issue with insecurities and anxieties, Indigenous People suffering for gay and lesbians so the narcissistic move from on a matter how sophisticated or progressive, we have to accept that. We talk about solidarity across the board. When i am in solidarity with my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters, im talking about my solidarity. I want to be a decent human being, or to make sure their lives have the same dignity and respect as anybody else pandemic on one hand, depression levels massive unemployment and underemployment, collapse of the Education System and so forth, weve been living in a failed social experiment on every front. The educational system, most religious institutions, theyve failed to generate what of democracy ought to, which is a healthy life in which people are not. Reporter deal with inadequate housing. Access to quality education so when it comes to 40 of the population, it fails but we have to try again. How do you feel better, you have to have the resources. It could be in europe. Do they have . A disparate they are wrestling with their due fees in it. If you miss it from that, youll miss out on the greatness of that. Thats what it was about. Thats when alisa was about. Integrity and asked for excellence to get beyond what theyve been exposed to pass it on to the Younger Generation given what was inside the soul. I say amen. I just think it has to go. I am sorry. Im not interested in allies because it makes it seemed like well over here in our america, everything is great, we just need to improve your america. No, have you looked at what is happening in their america . I talked about it before. Life expectancy, white men and women have gone into reverse. This has not happened in the developed world and its driven by alcoholism, drug addictions and suicide. Thats right. So we all need to be figuring out what to do to change this country. Racism and black people smarter, its all of our problems. Look whats happening with covid. The Democratic Party and republicans were so skillful and adept in using racism to undermine and destroy our social welfare system, it means years later, during a pandemic, its completely broken and that means we get 1200 checks if youre lucky, before august and thats it. Thats what social welfare produces in the u. S. Why . They use racism to undermine the whole system of social welfare by convincing white people that black people trying to get something for nothing. The racism is all of our problems and for regular people, the ones who dont get it before everyone else, convincing white people youre making, they are making a dime and black people are making a nickel so have we gotten over it . Its a bit of what we are dealing with. We have to move this conversation beyond ally ship to talk about what is actually happening in the u. S. In one of the strategies and understanding history thats necessary to transform itself all of our lives can improve. That doesnt mean were all suffering the same. We see the pandemic is affecting africanamericans and whats happening on the border of this country, we can see people are suffering more than others. In the u. S. , this is a country of suffering. There are other resources that dont have to exist. This country gives the pentagon almost 1 trillion a year. Resources exist so this level of suffering does not have to exist. We have to fight to change the political dynamic to end suffering and you dont do that with liberal discourse about ally ship. I think it is hard to imagine a more powerful way to end this conversation. Where do we go from here . You may have seen my introductions at the beginning for overthetop, i hope you understand how you have improved. This panel was incredible. It lived up and exceeded my expectations and i encourage all of you to do a couple of things. Live with integrity. Join the movement, find a way to contribute but also, support these independent bookstores of the organizations we listed what they are National Bailout, critical resistance and smell out of stockton, california. I want to thank robin kelly, elizabeth, cornell west, for their brilliance and devotion. You cant just get off the couch and do this kind of thing. I love you and thank you all for coming and spending the evening with us. You back. Heres a look at books being published this week. The trilogy on the rise of modern conservatism in american politics and reagan plan. It doesnt hurt to ask, attorney trey of South Carolina provides guidance on how to effectively communicate with others. Under of the Public Defense organization, getting thomas offers his thoughts on how to change the criminal justice system. Also being published this week, msnbc political analyst, rick tyler makes his case for how conservative principles and tackle political issues. Patient magazine writer, richard provides history Secession Movement in the u. S. In break it up. Political commentators, senate and rishel known as diamond and sick reflect on their lives in uprising. Find these titles this week wherever books are sold and watch for the authors in the near future on tv on cspan2. On our weekly Author Interview program, afterwards, former Clinton Administration interviewed white house correspondent, jonathan got his time covering the trump administration. This question, he discusses the history of the phrase, enemy of the people. Every one of those president s complained about press coverage, if the present focus on it was too negative, didnt see the accomplishments of the administration, that is the standard procedure but terms attacks go far beyond that. Phrase i spend time in the book about the origins of the phrase, it is a very ugly phrase used by stalin, hitler, during the french revolution to justify the headings of people by deity. Talk more about that. Thats one of the most interesting parts of the book, unpacking that phrase and you do that at length in a couple of chapters and go through what they doctors phrase that is if you look back at the history but talk about that a bit. I spent some time looking through the origins of the phrase and it was used quite prominently during the french revolution. The most significant place, people got beheaded. And basically the justification was, the people were targeted by the law under which they were found guilty and beheaded, the actual law uses that phrase, enemy of the people. I go through and document the use during the reign of terror when blood was flowing in the streets of paris and the other place, the next place i saw was in germany, the site that gave hitler his powers, i find this article, an Associated Press article, front page of the New York Times and many newspapers around the world there in the paragraph, you see the National Socialist party making the case anybody who votes against this is enemy of the people. Cap the nazis using the phrase and then you see it later used by joseph stalin. Im not saying donald trump knew that was history behind this but it was pointed out by a lot of people that have this dark and deadly history and he kept using it. To watch the rest and find other episodes of afterwards, visit our website, booktv. Org and click on the afterwards tab near the top of the page. Topping the list is president trumps niece, mary trump and her critical look at the president and the trump family in her book too much and never enough. After that in the twilight of democracy, and looks at the rise of authoritarianism and nationalism around the world. Jordan, iraq and christopher you, the democrat traveled the country together and attempt to find a common dialogue in the union. On the most important subject