Transcripts For CSPAN2 In Depth Wes Moore 20240712

Write that the military saved your life. What do you mean by that . Guest i think the military plate and a currently Important Role in my life where some of the most important types of my life have not been when i was wearing a suit that was when i i was wearing the uniform for this country. I was first introduced to the military system actually when i was 13. I was sent to a military school. I i had a mandatory year in military school, and i got into some issues, some challenges and when i was younger my mom was threatening to send the way to militaryy school ever since i ws eight years old and every year she said i will send you away at a cap on blowing her off. The first time i felt handcuffs on the wrist was when i was 11. My mother noticed i was intentionally hurting people that actually loved me. So i i could oppress people that could care less about me. Finally one day she said im going to send you to military school. And honestly i thought she was getting or exaggerating. And then finally i realized she wasnt and she sent me to a mandatory School Military school. I hated every minute of it when it first started. I remember the first, those first days of their here i ran away multiple times, five times in the first four days of military school. I also noticed the longer i stayed i began to fully understand what it was that there tied to teach me, and also what it was my mom was trying to teach me. And the fact that we do live in an interconnected environment and how everybody was doing in my unit mattered to have my unit as a whole was doing. When it actually finished high school and i had a chance to go on, festival scholarship offers and do other things, i decided the thing i wanted to do, the thing i want to spend my life on, i wanted to lead soldiers and so thats what i made the decision that it wanted to the army. So for me the decision to go into the army was both a continuation of the fact that i had this level of service both the fact they would help pay for college and that wasor very helpful, but theres also this idea that i felt a debt of gratitude because it i felt lit was the introduction of that at a really crucial time in my life that really helped make the lot of the difference that ended up happening like i was living. Host what was your role in the 82nd airborne . Guest iso i was a paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division and i i had a few different roles. My findable and it gives them was i was director Information Operations for the first grade in the 82nd Airborne Division. Thats a long way of saying that everything we had in terms of information ops, psych ops, psychological operations, that we had within our entire area of operations which was what we call rc east which is regional command east, the entire Eastern Region of afghanistan, the border where pakistan and Afghanistan Border each other. R. I was director of Information Operations for that so at the time when i was, my last assignment winners leaving afghanistan we had about 1700 paratroopers that were under our command that we were responsible for your it was an amazing and an aweinspiring experience. Host wes moore, have had you changed after that first year inng military school as a what, a 12yearold . Thirteen years old. I would say the big thing that changed for me was there was this introduction of leadership. What that means, what it meant and the role that it played in my life. Where i felt like military school gave me a a chance to in the way it was a remake of identity. That was important. It was a chance to rethink my role and myy space within sociey but also i think some of the other bigger things that happened was there. Was this vey intentional introduction of leadership, that matters. Sometimes when people say about military school they say yeah, we need to send you to military, unique discipline. They will do pushups and wake up early. You will do pushups and you will wake up early. All those things are real and true, but thats not what made the experience useful for me. The thing that made the experience useful for me was this introduction to leadership. It was this idea they are very much going to introduce you to leadership early and in a very deliberate way, where they will put in charge of something. After the initial basic training for Police System whatever his they will putut you in charge of something. Relatively early and relatively small. Its not because thats what youre cap is. Its because they want you to get a taste. They will put you in charge of a hallway and they will say okay, you are in charge of the solvent or youre in charge of the dumpsters or in charge of whatever. Keep it clean, will congratulate you if its dirty and we will help you. One thing, then you be promoted and then you move onto the next thing. Maybee now you have a couple cadets or soldiers under your command and then you move up and then you move up. So theres this gradual responsibility about the way they try to teach leadership frameworks that i think are not only useful and important for me but also it was something that really gave me a taste of what was actually important. Like i knew going in that we the people was important to me. I knew going in that whether it was in the case of leading cadets or c leading soldiers ori think about the work we do now, being able to be part of the process, being able to be the person whoto can help shape the direction of organizations and execute on things, that something that we can really important in my development and i think both the frameworks on what it meant and how to do it but then also the introduction of the necessity in my life was something the military help to foster. Host more, how did you become a Rhodes Scholar . Guest truth is that i actually think about that experience quite a bit because the first time i had a real conversation about the Rhodes Scholarship was actually when i was interning with the mayor of baltimore and he was a former Rhodes Scholar. It was the last thing my internship and he called into his office. In fact, i have a picture up there thats in my office. In that picture hes standing there pointing to a picture on his wall. Understand them hurt was not the type of guy who had camera people what are following him around all the time. Thats what he did. But on that day, on the folly of my internship kurt schmoke kolbe and then he said have you thought about Rhodes Scholarship . He knew my grades, extracurriculars. I told him i heard about it but hadnt really thought about it. The picture he took that is now sitting in my office is in pointinghi to the wall of something. The thing hes pointing at is his rhodes class and where he was in this picture. That was a month where he first told me about the Rhodes Scholarship and told i should consider it. He gave instructions of people i should talk to about it and i went and it did just that. I went and talked to certain people. I had people who helped with my essays and health about how do i address my lifes journey in a thousand words for the Rhodes Scholarship application . And i loved that story and its important because writer in my office is the picture of my rhodes class. Ims very clear that that pictue happen if thatr picture didnt happen. So it was an experience that i will never forget one where literally i think our plane flew off less than two weeks after 9 11 where the nation in the world had just changed immeasurably at the same time that i was having this experience where my entire officer to expense was shaped very much so by 9 11 especially for the fact thatfi i was in the military. A chance to sit International Relations in place where i was one of only a few americans studying. So it gave me a chance to truly study International Relations with people in your classroom from brazil and china and nigeria and argentina. Getting a chance to really understand how all these dynamics take place amongst some really remarkable people who would become some of my best friends. It was a very special experience i give ape lot of thanks to kurt schmoke and many others really help to light that path for me and of the realize they can be real. Host what is your view about taking money from the Cecil Rhodes Foundation and what did you tell the overview board . Guest one of the last questions, the last question asked in my interview was because i spent time in south africa. Im also africanamerican. I know our history in this country really well. One of the last questions i was asked by the person was chairman of the board, he said, listen, you have been to south africa. You are africanamerican. How can you a accept this money knowing the history, knowing how he made it and know the lives that were lost in order for them to make that money . And i f thought about it and i paused and i said, i know a few things for sure. One was that when cecil rhodes was creating this scholarship, he did not have me in mind to be sitting here as a finalist for this scholarship money. And he is probably turning in his grave repeatedly knowing that either ass a finalist for his scholarship. The other thing that that shows we will progress means and what progress looks like. The fact that something that was not at all intended for me, that i have an opportunity to not only stand here and utilize it but also have a real obligation to make sure youre doing something with it. The other thing i do know is that, that it was my ancestors who fought and who bled and to build, and who are able to build it in a way that created a pathway for me to be in that seat at that moment, who were able to sacrifice into dream for the world that they didnt see but to dream and fight for one that hopefully one day that i would be. And for me to have the opportunity then to be there in that seat, for me to have an opportunity to then take the privilege of that seat, then to go out and as a rhodes said, go out in the world a fight that fight, itf felt it would be disrespectful to them not to. And so understanding that particularly when you look at the history of cecil rhodes, looking at the history of its that even just southoo africa bt the entire Southern African region and the damage that he did to the people there, forced own personal benefit to the point that at that time he was the wealthiest man in the world. Its not lost on me. Its also not lost on me the obligation that i now have to you, the benefit that were fought long and hard for me to be able to have to use that now to make sure that we can create a more just and a more fair world. Host wes moore, where did you come up . Guest i spent part of my childhood growing up in maryland, part of my childhood growing up in the bronx. I called billy to places home. One is baltimore. Actually where i live now even though i was born a little, actually closer to the d. C. Area, and in new york were spent a lot of my childhood after my dad died. So my dad was a radio personality down in baltimore in the d. C. Area, and one day he was complaining about his throat and was saying how his throat was bothering him. He couldnt sleep. He went to the hospital the next day and as he went to the hospital he was wearing ragged clothes, had a beard and a lot of assumptions made about my dad when he walked in to the hospital that day looking for help. When my mom finally made it to the hospital to come join him they asked her questions Like Companies your husband prone to exaggeration next they gave him instructions to go home and rest and if it got worse than to come back. Five hours after they released him he died. Thats when we are living out in maryland. My mother had a really difficult time with the transition at that point and finally called a prepared, my grandparents, who were living in the bronx. My grandfather was a minister in the south bronx and my grandmother was a schoolteacher in the south bronx, and the house was barely big e enough fr them but they figured out a way to make it big enough for all of us. We ended up moving up there, and then at that point after we moved up there thats where i spent a good six, seven years of my childhood before itt ended up going to military school in pennsylvania. A lot of my childhood was a lot of moving around. But the thing that i do that no matter where we moved to, i i d a remarkable loving family who i was blessed to be able to say, with what they had, they really tried to provide for us as best as they b could. It was something i always felt growing up. Host from your firstlw book, the other wes moore, my father was a kid i ballers have to beingg hospital with a simple instructionsns to get some slee. Same hospital was t now preparig to send his body to the morgue. My father had entered the hospital seeking help but his face was unshaven, his clothes to shall become his name generic, his address not in an affluent area. The hospital looked at him, and sold them with ridiculous questions and basically told him to fend for himself. Now my mother had to plan his funeral. Why do you think those assumptions were made . Guest race. Actually i think, its really one of the heartbreaking things and i think about it a lot both where we are now and also when people say, well, at what point in your life did you know or did you understand the impact of race . As you just listed out it was literally at this point that come at its always point when people are treated differently. When ire think about the many systems that we have in place in our society whether it is our Health Care System or our education system, whether its thinking about Environmental Justice or educational justice. Its impossible to talk about these things without understanding the role that race plays. Its impossible to understand these things without understandable that systemic racism plays. Because it is not lost to me and will never be lost to me the fact that had those factors been different, that had been mentioned before, there wouldve been a benefit of the doubt it was given, benefit of the doubt been given we would not have had the same type of results. This is something that i know is not just anecdotal. Theres a data that continues to reinforce the fact that race is one of the most predictable indicators for life outcomes across several layers, across life expectancy, across education, across maternal mortality, across mental and physical health. L and so the thing that made that real in my case, in the case of my father, and a case of thinking about my Family History is this idea that i know its inescapable to not understand that race, the impact of race, has in all of this. Host who was the other wes moore . Guest the other wes moore is a young man who i heard about actually the same time i i was getting gray to head off to england. As the baltimore sun, my hometown paper was writing an article about this local caterer just received this Rhodes Scholarship and they were k writing about my background, about my childhood. They were writing about the fact that just ten years ago i had handcuffs on my wrists and now ten years later i was getting ready to go to england on a full scholarship and what the journey was like. But around the same time they were also writing about an armed Jewelry Store robbery and this armed Jewelry Store robbery was a botched robbery where four guys came in and the first to ask which of the the Jewelry Store they had guns and they can anybody on the ground. And then the next two guys walk into the Jewelry Store. When they walked in they pulled out malice. One guy with the gun and one guy with a mouth went to the left and one guy with a mallet and one with the gun went to the right. They were Walking Around smashing out jewelry cases. They were taking out watches and necklaces. They got about 400,000 worth of jewelry that day, and one of them said lets go, all four of them ran out side to the parking lot to onere of people inside te store that day was an offduty Police Officer who was moonlighting as a security guard. Ff he was a 13 year veteran with the baltimore policeer force. He was a threetime recipient of Police Office of the year that he was also a father of five who just had triplets. And the reason he was working that it was because it was his day off from the police force and it took on a second job to make extra money for his family. And when he ended up, when you left the store, he got up off the ground and he drew his weapon and he ran outside to see if heto could stop the guys in getting away. And when you ran outside he started using extra cars and vehicles given softcover but what he didse realize that one f the vehicles he was kneeling next you with one of the vehicles the guys were in. And a window rolled down and he was shot three times at pointblank range and hela was killed. That ended up being a wealthy National Manhunt for those four guys, 12 days, all four khizr khan. They were captured and tried and convicted and sentenced for the crime was a guy whose name was also wes moore. The more i learned about this crime, the more i learned about this tragedy, oftentimes the newspaper articles from the more i knew there were questions i wanted to ask. So when do i just decided write him a note, and the first note of voting was, like, hey, my name is wes moore. I wrote you at the Correctional Institution where i knew what he was at the time. Still is to this day. About a a month later i got a letter back from the Correctional Institution from wes moore. That one letter was fascinating to me. All states come too he was alluding to, and that one letter turned into dozens of letters and dozens of letters turned into dozens of visits. I have now known wes moore for over 17 years. He is now in year 20 of his life sentence. Income his older brother and two other guys were there there the day of the crime. D and so thats who he was and that initial letter really turned to do something that changed the way that i thought about the world. Because it really did help to serve as an important reminder about in that line is between our life in some elses life. The chilling truth is that his story could have been mine. The tragedy is that my story could have been his. Y and how thin those differences are, how thin the decisionmakingg is, how sometimes its about the small decisions that we make that we sometimes accidentally fall into. Sometimes the decisions are decisions made for us. Ns sometimes its the lack of options that we have for decisions we make but how as a society we cannot be so quick to congratulate or castigate unless we are willing to dig into peoples stories come from us were willing to understand the things that make our stories whiches and that make them real, and how tod understand that the neighborhoods that we were going up in, and the fact that for far too many of our children we are screaming to vent about what we want from them and what we expect from them. I remember once wes moore said to me, we were talking about baltimore, and the fact that we were living blocks away from each other in baltimore. He said to me, and asked him him, i said do you think we are products of our environment . Talking about baltimore. He even said to me, actually i think we are products of our expectation. As soon asns he set he said thi thought to myself, he is absolutely right, that we were not products of our environment. We were products of her expectations and someone once said to me its a shame you lived up to your expectations and wes did. Actually i set the real shame is that weth both did. Because in many ways thats exactly how we have structured a societal system where people are continually living up to their expectation. Then the questionth just becomes what expectations do we actually have . Host and you quote the other wes moore talking to you in your first book, the other wes moore. From everything you told me both of us get some pretty wrong stuff when we were younger and both of us had Second Chances. But if the situation or the context where you make the decision dont change, then Second Chances dont mean too much. Guest thats right. And also it is interesting to see who gets Second Chances and for what. I think thats the thing that was important for me to be able to appreciate and understand and also to be able to share is that everyone of us need Second Chances. Theres not one of us that live our lives like everything is good. I took people all the time were even still to this day my days now are two steps forward and one step back. And thats now. So the idea of be needing Second Chance or whatever is that is a very humanistic need that will consistently be there. But what we are not structured do as a society is to have any form of parity or equal proportionate what exactly that means. Right now we still know him and you can look at date of the reinforces it from every single measure, from our criminal justice system, our educational system, that we have massive disparities when it comes to everything from race and class about how the Second Chances are allocated and what we need Second Chances for. The fact isth when we people are living in poverty, its like when people say how does public show itself . The answer is in every way. Its the air people are breathing, its the water they are drinking. Its how they are policed. What transportation you have read you. Unfortunately if you are creating this concentrated level of poverty and injustice that exists, and oftentimes a colorcoded poverty that exists, we also know that this idea behind Second Chances is something that becomes fleeting. So actually that experience and getting to know wes and build my friendship with wes, africa something that has been seen long after the book and in the peopley, fast, like why are you still in touch with him . Dont you know what is in prison for a . My answer is, respectfully, i know why he is a and and i dont need anybody to remind me. But the thing that i do know is this, is that even our worst decisions, i also know if were not willing to learn these lessons and why this concept of Second Chances, how they are supposed to mean, i would even an opportunity to make the mean something . That is something that will be crucial about how we think about the world and have think about our place in it. Host what did he think about you telling his story . Guest he was one of the first people i went to when i started pulling this idea. I befriend a woman who is a remarkable writer and, i mean, she is like a real writer. She iss put out a lot of books. Shes incredibly talented. She would always ask about wes because i knew him for years before the idea of this book even came about. Every time i would see her or talk to her should always ask how was wes to a . I give withe the updated she one day said to me i really think you should write about this. I think theres a bigger story to be told here. I told listen, im not that interested in writing a book. Dont have time to write a book. I dont want to dig that deeply in his life. I dont want to dig deeply into my own. Ind went to go talk to wes about it and went to go see him as him i said ive been approached about writing a story on our lives and our relationship. What do you think . Immediately he said to me, i think you should do it. And he said two things that always stuck with me. He said listen, ive wasted every opportunity ive ever had in life and im going to die here. If you can do something to people understand the consequences for their decisions, but also do something to help people understand the neighborhoods that these decisions are being made in, then you should do it. That really thend became the entire fire and focus behind doing this project, was that i wanted people to understand not just the consequences of the decisions that people are making, but also want people to understand the context of the decision people are making in the neighborhoods theyre making come in. Its something i remember soon after the book was published my editor called it up and the like great news, we just received word from Christophe Beck for someone to an oped with the other wes moore basis of the book. Nick kristof is a fantastic writer of thehe new times, bestselling author, a progressive and a really brilliant guy and he writes this remarkable oped with a superset of really enjoyed this book the other wes moore because its a great examination of race and class in a society about three weeks later editor calls differences great news, we justt received word that micah wants to write an oped with your book on the facen of the oped. Hes a former speechwriter for president bush, a writer for the washington post, brilliant guy, conservative. He writes this oped recess i really enjoyed the other wes moore and the basis was a great examination of personal responsibility and individual choice. I wasit like this is fascinatin. Here are two people who like it for two completely different reasons. I remember my wife asked me, who do you think is right . I said honestly i think they are bothes right. Because you can talk about societal responsibility cant talk about societal response those without understand at the end of the day all these things are individual choices and individuals will be heldse to their choices are either good or bad. However, you cannot talk about individual choice without understanding that these individual choices are being made in societal context. That societal context does influence the type of choices that people are making. And so all of those things really helped to tie in as to how i think the best story was really not just illuminating to me but also just very humbling to see the way that i feel that it is translated across communities, across wealth line to really help people to say and understand that these conditions that were asking people, these things were asking people to ignore. We really have made a devils bargain where were asking ourselves every single day, how much pain i was willing to tolerate in other peoples lives . How much paper we willing to tolerate in her neighbors . As long as it doesnt impact as too much. And that devils bargain that i think that is eating away at all of our collective soul every single day whether we realize it or not, thanks for joining us on booktv. This is ak monthly in Depth Program what we have one author on discussed his or her body of work and take your calls. This month its author, veteran, Rhodes Scholar, former investment banker wes moore. His book the other wes moore came out in 2010. His book the work came out in 2015. His most recent book which we havent discussed yet is five days the fiery reckoning of an American City. Hes also written discovering wes moore, a young adult, take on the other wes moore and a novel called this way home which came out in 2016. Heres how you can participate in ourte conversation with wes moore. You can call in. You can also text a question or comment to wes moore this way. If you can make sure to get the correct so we dont send texts out to anybody ourselves here. We also have several social media sites where you can participate, twitter, facebook, instagram. Just remember at booktv is our handle and you can go to those sites. One of the way of contactingf u, booktv cspan. Org via email. We will begin taking those calls and questions, et cetera, in just a few minutes. Wes moore, whats the visitation process like to get into the prison in maryland . Guest its change now because there is it due to covid19. Wes has not been allowed to visitors in months. To be honest im not sure who is having right now. Its pretty restricted and not just access but even amongst people who are in jessup and their party locked in now for 23 hours in individual cells due to covid19. Prior to that though its a pretty onerous process and honestly its an onerous process for he intentionally so because its not like theres a heavy encouragement for people to be able to up outside communication with people from your family or friends come visit. Oftentimes you look at situations with these facilities are nowhere near where the majority of people who are being housed there actually live. Its not an easy process for people to be able to go visit. And then once you do it is really a pretty allday process, that it takes to go in and go to a visit. There is no quick pop in. You will go in and go through your searches, multiple searches and then you could wait for hours before you have a chance to see the person. And then when you do get a chance to see that its a pretty restricted timeframe youre allowed to be able to interact. For a lot of people part of the complication of staying in touch is the simple thing that is not an easy process to stay in touch. Its not an easy process to have telephonic communications. Weha have policies that exist in this country that are charging an exorbitant amount of money charging individuals to be able to stay in touch with her family members despite the fact the vast majority of people are currently incarcerated will be coming home and despite the fact all data continuing to show that if a person can keep contact with family and do that while they are incarcerated, that have a much better chance of reentry back into society and in a stable and safe reentry back into society. The vast majority people would be coming helped the vast majority of people are not there for w life sentences or long sentences. The s vast majority will be reentry in our society and so the fact that we do make it so complicated for people cannot just stay in touch but also to make that transition back is really benefiting nobody because i get these are all people who bill returned back to our society. Host can you pin point a point in your life where you could see yourself as the other wes moore . Guest absolutely. I think one of the things that really got me about this whole process was how in many ways arbitrary and in many ways incredibly deliberate the way that we have structured this entire framework is. Where i remember the first time i felt handcuffs on my wrist. I remember having at that point no Real Authority or say as to how the next p phase of my life was going to go. I remember this idea of watching friends being picked up for a collection of Different Things. And so you see how incredibly fickle but also at the same time when it comes to many communities, Impoverished Community is, that were below the poverty line, how do is a very deliberate unfair measures and mechanisms that came in when it came to policing and think the something that was very unfair for the officers for the enforced to patrol these areas. You absolutely see how thin that mine really is. I know one of the things, i have to credit where i am now, is both the fact h that it did, i have a role model. I for one of the greatest gift that god gave you was the fact that he gave me my mother and i will always be grateful for that. Also other family members and mentors and coaches and that everything but i know theres also one thing that served as an initial prerequisite, and thats like. Like should have to be a prerequisite in order to make it in her society luck. How would thinkti about work tht ive been asked to do continue to do on this planet, its eliminating luck as a prerequisite in order for people to make it and its understand our own larger, the larger conversation we all must have in order for us to be able to do just that. I absolutely cannot only imagine it but the thing i spend more time thinking about is had it not been for a series of decisions, some of which wes had nothing to do with, that it dont see why wes should not be right here next to a contributing but that is the dynamic. Thats the challenge that a think we have to sort through. Host why did you move back to baltimore . Guest its for a few different reasons. After i came back from afghanistan i i had a chance to work in washington, andnd i word as as a white house fellow which iu a yearlong nonpolitical nonpartisan fellowship but she u worked as a Senior Advisor for a captive for secretary kerry and amazing experience. Then i started working in finance and working in finance doing well and ive gotten promoted a couple of times. Really finding a a real role in the world of finance. In the way my mind works, my mind is more quantitative and qualitative. Numbers come easier to me than words. I have to work a lot harder which is an ironic thing since im an author but it also know something was really missing. I knew that i wanted to spend my time being t able to focus on te things that made my heart beat a little bit faster, b and that ws in finance. It wasnt banking. I remember actually going and having a conversation with my old boss who is still there. I told him, i want to do Something Different but he said you just have to understand this is not like, this is not where you can hop out and hot back in, this treadmill keeps moving. If you make a decision its a pretty Firm Decision at a told him i thought about and i got it. I still thought it was the right thing t to do. Then he said i did it and he said youre ready. Thats when i decided part of my journey was moving back home. I love baltimore. I think its an amazing place filled with amazing people. Its quirky, its complicated but its also a place where its stored is very much being written right now as we speak. This is a city that used to be a city of close to a million people. Its that the city of less than 600,000. The exception of cleveland and detroit, baltimore has lost more citizens in any other major American City over the last two decades. Its a city that is the home of Thurgood Marshall and the home of babe ruth. Its also home of my life and seven most discriminatory policy housing policy, transportation policies that this country is ever instituted on its population and particularly black population. Its a place that is, while at the same time we were celebrating the rebirth of the Baltimore Orioles and this nice streak run the same time were celebrating the Baltimore Ravens bringing the total beckham was read the same time we also had and informed about the names of Anthony Anderson and chris brown and i run west and eventually freddie gray. So its a city that is still very much healing from its past. Its a city that is still very much trying to search and determined its own future. Its the place where i think people from baltimore take the fact they are baltimore very persistent and it take real pride in the fact they are baltimore. The matter with you happen to be not, in fact, im still very much living founder and raise my i know peoplet who have baltimore inw the roots were no longer hear here who are just as proud as i am. I also know its a place where our story is being written as we speak and the chance to be one of 600,000 authors of a a prety Great American story is exciting to me. When i thought about the place that for me and by the community, for me and body ownership, for me then it became a pretty easy decision that our family is going to go back to baltimore. Host where were you living on saturday april 12, 2015 . Guest living in baltimore at the time. Host what happened that day . Guest that was the day that freddie gray made eye contact police. And i say that because that was his crime. That he made eye contact with police in iran. Its important for people understand that, i i say that because thats not a crime everywhere. Its i a crime distinctly labeld high crime in high poverty areas where if you make eye contact with police and run, thats enough to trigger probable cause. You can then he chased and arrested. Had that been done in another neighborhood, had that been done in a neighborhood that was only a mile and half to two miles away from where freddie gray was, he couldve done the same exact thing and he wouldve been going for a jog. He didnt. He did in we made eye contact with police, he ran. He was eventually arrested. And an hour after he was arrested he was in a coma. When he finally made to the university of Maryland Medical Center it was deemed it be broken vertebrae and a crushed larynx and a crushed voicebox. He never made it out of the coma. Coma. He never recovered from his injuries. He died aec week later. And so that was the day that the world first starting off with west baltimore and then baltimore and then eventually the world, that wasas the date that the world we first learn of the name freddie gray. Host from your book five days the fiery reckoning of an American City you write there were reasons his death was different. That it so quickly turned into a galvanizing moment instead of passing into painful silence like with others. Portions of freddie grays idle moments were caught on camera, capturing video of Police Encounters is commonplace now but his death in 2015 coincided with the emergence of smart phones and social media as tools of citizen s journalists. Guest and it was. One of these things where i think, i thought about was the thing that made us even know who ready gray was a white his name was . You think about it, in the two years before freddie gray there wasnt just ready gray. Before freddie gray that was Anthony Anderson and it was chris brown and the was tyrone west. Similar situations where you have an unequal distribution of force and a black man made contact with police and loses his life. When people say what was different about freddie . Why did friday trigger this whole thing in a new type of way . Two things that i think we cannot underestimate with this is what it was caught on camera. Unlike those of the other ones that i name with the idea of your word versus mine, particularly when your word is some who cannot speak for themselves anymore becomes much more complicated when there is video footage. Becomes much more complicated when we are m watching it live, watching the slide and some of his capturing what actually happened. The second piece that i think makesd ready grays story different is the context of when it happens freddie grays the fact there was this group now called black lives matter that was able to respond, i was able to move. You watch this dynamic where this organization was sounded by three black women and was sounded by three black women in response to what happened to trayvon martin. This idea of saying we have to be able to remind this country that its not about black lives matter anymore, but asking ths country to remember that they even matter and you cannot take allies with impunity. And so you now saw this thing that went from hashtag to now becoming something that was becoming and would becomeec a Global Movement that could move and mobilized quickly in different areas. So it was not just about how our repositioning these things but when thesese things happen and have the individual families that having to fend for themselves, but it was about hack we put a real level of attention and focus when these things continue to happen in our communities . And so for freddie gray it was the factor we know it camera footage of him in his last moments, of him being dragged, literally because he wasnt helping. He was being dragged into the back of a police van. We also read this movement called black lives matter that within focus on making sure that we dont just know the names, right . That we dont just understand the name Michael Brown and Philando Castile and walter scott and sean bell and eric garner and sandra and tamir rice and Ahmaud Arbery and freddie gray. That we dont just know their names but that we demand justice for the fact that we have screen and chant their names. I think those with the big things we saw and the differences that would enable us to see with freddie gray and a situation that we did not sue some of the others that were in baltimore. Host back to trenton. Freddie gray and so many others like grew up in the type of poverty that permeates everything. It was that poverty that raised the probability that freddie would be exactly what he was on april 12, 2015, and then again on april 27, 2015. In fact, the odds started being stacked against freddie generations before he was born. Guest its one of these things where, when i hear peoe make arguments about how, about freddie or that freddie was this a freddie was that freddie was a thug who everybody, the Police Officers knew his name. We even had elected officials who, and this is most heartbreaking think about it, these are elected officials whose job is actually to protect him. People who sometimes you have to remind them that freddie which are constituent, too. But its also important for people to understand freddie grayls not just in his death but freddie gray in his life. Because oftentimes part of the conversation that took place was very much about what happened to freddie and how did freddie tighten the typeid of thing and those allimportant conversations all things we have to be able to contend with, all things we have to be able to address, i just done what happened to him on the day that he died and letting to happen to be an be in a coma for an entire week. But its also important we understand the tragedy of his life. Its also really important we understand the tragedy of how freddie gray existed in the first 25 years of his life. Premature, and addicted to heroin. His mother who battled addiction for mustard much of her life, never made it to high school, she could not read nor write. It would him and his twin sister unlinking in way to the hospital, you move into a Housing Project over was baltimore. This Housing Project on cary street, that along with 480 of homes were actually cited in civil lawsuit to us tonight because there was led inside of the homes there were in. We know that it is a toxin. The cdc indicates that if in 2009 because the endemic was led by the home that we are living in. Lead is a neurotoxin from over a century. The cdc indicates a person has 6 microbes of led in every decaliter of good, they have cognitive damage for the remainder of their life and freddy gray is 36 so this is a young man who was born premature under weight, addicted to heroin and by that time in his life he is 2 years old. Freddy gray never had a chance. We never gave freddy gray a chance. When you look at the fact that his last recorded day at school, in the tenth grade, 19 years old, when you look at the fact he was specialeducation his entire academic career, we were asking his teachers to perform an incredibly unfair task of making up things that poisoning of his neurological system that none of them had anything to do with. But we continue to do that and in every interaction, the very system and freddys life whether it was not just policing and educational system and every single time they touched freddy gray it wasnt just that they could not help him and in many ways they were each doing in their own individual ways damage to him. As a larger society, as a larger frame, that is where we have to contend with. And now with lasting damage, freddy could have died before he made eye contact and arguably the most peaceful week in freddys life was a week he was in a coma, he was surrounded by doctors and nurses, at least that week, was the city that knew his name, sd card whether he lived or died. And name one week that was the case. And and it is not just a justice of what happened to him that day, and that cannot be excluded either but it focused on everything from Environmental Justice and Health Justice and all the other justice mechanisms that frankly completely you alluded him for his entire life. Host the tear from our callers. Wes moore is our guest, hi, nicole. Caller thanks for taking my call. I want to say i am very impressed with the way that you speak, your articulation. What i am calling about, i was born in 1970, in southern new jersey, black middleclass family. A good education was something that was paramount in our family. We were very lucky to be able to go to Parochial School which made a huge difference in our lives. To make sure we were exposed to many things like classical literature, classical music, the arts, theater, jazz, even science programs my dad made us watch. My question to you is what can be done to put experiences such as what i had, such as in the lives of poor black kids and poor neighborhoods like scholarships or money to be raised, science programs and things could be brought into the schools. Guest i love the frame of your question. And allencompassing experience not just about the reading and writing and arithmetic, not just qualification this, how to make a truly holistic experience that promotes this idea of Lifelong Learning and promote the idea of exploration that makes life interesting. I love the frame, that you are approaching. This right now and what we are seeing, both especially post covid19 where weve watched these explode. And focusing on things like making sure kids into school afraid to learn, coming and going, letters and numbers and things that help them go on for a pathway to talk to many elementary and precast and kindergarten teachers and say what would be most helpful, often times it is a classroom full of kids ready to go because if i teach too fast i will lose the kids and so how do you come up with that frame . There is also chronic absence is a big deal for our students because they are not in the classroom, they cant learn. What happens during summer months . That exists in june and september, many students who were not able to have a mechanism during the summer, what happens in a situation right now where we have students who were not in the classroom since february. A quarter of kids had not logged on consistently during this time of virtual education. And to rethink education in a different kind of way. How do we introduce these experiences that sometimes happen for certain students but sometimes happen because certain instructors to introduce it. It doesnt have to be exceptional, and, how can we go through the process of thinking it is absolutely critical that we do not have students that do not have a mechanism, to help with virtual learning. And we are now adopting the curriculum in newly creative ways to support our student. Your question, forces us to think through, how can we use this moment, who took me and help me understand the Constitutional Congress worked. To explain that to me. To understand the things that made life so interesting and help to guide the things to focus on, how to make that, all a student, everyone else from the educational framework is being upended. That becomes a Bigger Mission but it is something that has to be done to address this in proper fashion. Nicoles question helped me think about the difference between how she discussed her parents and their activism and education and freddy rays mother. Guest we have to understand you are right, parents and guardians, there is an important and crucial role in their childs educational aspirations. I am not at all, not lost on me that my mother was a very active parent in terms of what kids are learning. My grandmother was a schoolteacher, a very active participant who was very clear in what type of things students should or should not be getting. I also know for kids that are coming up in situations where parents dont necessarily, not necessarily how their parents approached it. We cannot punish them for that. We have to think about structures to make sure even if that is not something that child is getting, it is something that child is getting structurally. When you think about parents, there can be blinking that takes place, it is the parents fault. I have been working with students and families now for decades and heres the thing i can tell you with certainty. For a lot of parents that dont know or a lot of parents it is hard because it was complicated, when you work 3 different jobs picking up 14 hours a day, none of that got you a bubble card. You will need support. The support my family got. My mother got her first child who gave her benefits. Without multiple jobs. When i was 14, she was not only helping raise us but lived with my grandparents and grandparents gave a real and significant amount of support, my mom would credit them and not what i would have done raising my three kids. For many parents they dont know, or for many parents they dont have the resources and so with that how do we make sure what nicole got a ride got, how do we institutionalize it to make sure it is not just your mom or your grandparents, not the grace of their situation that allows you to have a pathway but the fact that you are a member, valued member of our society so our society should be thinking about how to put the structure in place, to have an opportunity can meet each other. The framework is too heavily based on luck and having that infrastructure or that supports that i didnt ask for but i was blessed to receive, that cant be enough. That is how we should be thinking about how to reshape or rethink all this. Host if you cant get through on the phone lines and have a question or comment, we will scroll through our social media site, lynnwood in luzern mill, maryland, good afternoon. You are on with father wes moore. Caller hello, mister wes moore. You just said look, i read ecclesiastes, the last chapter, luck comes into everything. Dont see how you illuminate luck from the world or luck from humans. Bill clinton was lucky. Ross perot ran. Luck comes into everything. Conditions, i agree with you 100 , in a Perfect World to the option of doing the right thing. It is a little far out. They have the right probable cause, they did not. They were doing the speed thing. Forget about social problems, all the problems we have been he had a hot date, they had no right, what that would say, about bad luck, there was out here in omaha, a good citizen called the police, he sees a roadblock, he sees a young black man, what appears to be an ak47. The clerk is not there. No people around anywhere. He tells the police looks like weve got a mad gunman, randomly shot people and you better get over there and check it out. The clerk who is back there getting the receipt is not there. And they come in and the young black kids thinks obviously they are not feeling this good. He goes for his wallet, he goes for his wallet, got something for the gun, the credit card, the money. Host we need to bring this to a conclusion. Caller the shooter, it was a bb flexibility of an ak47. That is a tragedy but that was bad luck. Cops did nothing wrong. Host can you briefly give us a quick glance at your life story . Caller i was born in appomattox, sort of rough, graduated high school, i was in the military during vietnam, i went to morgan state, social services, went to maryland law school, pass the bar, ten years, approximately ten years, went back to the bottom of the city until 2011. Host we are going to have to leave it there. Wes moore. Guest first, my wife is a fellow turk and thinking of the work she did at opd, the work i did prior to that we launched an initiative, students taking a new direction, juvenile offenders and opd, that was a huge part of it so thank you for that and the lifetime you have given to this work and you bring up an important point that conditions have to be perfect for people to make it through and the obvious answer is no and the thing we also know is the conditions cannot be stacked against you either where if you look at the dynamics that exist right now we always talk about a College Degree is the target, not the we want all our students to accomplish but it increases lifetime earnings by 1 million yet Research Also shows black College Graduates earn less than White High School dropouts. A few look at this idea, take a look at new york for example, black new yorkers were more likely to experience Material Hardship than their white counterparts, 9 versus 19 , 70 of lowwage workers stay on the front lines during covid19, the point that you make that i also want to push on is when we are talking about the conditions that are existing for people we also cannot underestimate the role that race plays in those conditions, and the fact that if we do have a framework where we can just say if everyone is willing to work hard and do their task, they should have the opportunity to succeed. All that is right at all that is true but the reality is we are still making the curve, making that curve for many people and almost intentionally so, intentionally so making it unnecessarily high so that is the things at we, you, i, all of us want to dial again and should be battling again. This idea that i dont think the people need to be perfect but it needs to be fair and right now it is not fair. Host brian, montgomery, alabama, go ahead with your question. Guest thank you for taking my call. Host you with us . Brian, please go ahead. Caller okay. I am enjoying the conversation. I wanted to make a comment about the context because of the context. The context is something you mentioned about freddie gray. What you did is demonstrate black lives matter when you do that. You demonstrate black lives matter. So how can we use the context for everyone . That is related to the societal context. Host mister moore . Guest great question. It is interesting because it goes back to nicoles question about context. One of the first things we must do is add truth. We as a Large Society had a difficult time dealing with this issue of truth about this country. When people say race is one of the trickiest issues in our society, i disagree. It is not one of the trickiest issues, it is the trickiest when you think of the history of this country. The fact, the reality this country was founded on a racial hierarchy, the fact that this country did was founded on stolen land and stolen labor. Weve had a history of systemic challenges that did not end slavery but eventually and immediately went to jim crow and mass incarceration but all of these things provided a context that we have to be able to understand. When the founding documents were first put together and as beautiful as they were structured they did not include everybody and their head to be a collective Movement Towards this idea doctor king talked about, the bending of the moral arc toward justice but there has to be an understanding, how and who was responsible for so much that this country built and this idea that this bending toward justice doesnt bend automatically, it bends because people were pulling towards justice. People of all types in this countrys history. When we talk about things like context, that means how do we address overkill within our society going back to nicoles point about education, when we talk about the history of this country it is important that context for people to understand one of the most important things to happen to me was i began to appreciate the history of this country, the richness of this country, when people say how did you align with this country, how did you serve in the most elite military unit in this country and to know that . I would do it again if i had the opportunity. I would do it because i love this country but loving this country doesnt mean lying about it. Loving this country means being able to understand what does make it so powerful in the first place and names such as baldwin, hughes, parks, carmichael and names such as road seeing, these are names that are just as important to the framework of our nations history as any other name this, not just africanamerican children understand that but all children understand and if all children understand the many people who toiled to make this country better at every single turn, when we had a chance to make a decision, they look like every single shape that were able to make progress in my community, my ancestors should not be minimized. The other thing i know when talking about context, really important question about context, understanding the history, with lasting sustainable impact, not just the impacted Community Fighting for justice for the community. Whether you are talking about Antiapartheid Movement because it was not just a point when it was black south africans standing up, saying this is unjust and no way we can allow the system to do this. The movement for marriage equality, didnt just have to be lgbt q i friends who were demanding and chanting that love is love, to see movement now, we add context to our community and context is about the fact that what we are seeing is not as simple as people want to lay it out to be. Understanding the fullest tradition of our history, why we are where we are right now, the reason we have this level of poverty is not an unintentional act, people in poverty work harder or poverty is a choice my answer is this. Harmony is a choice. Not just those who are impacted or the choice of the people feeling people dont wake up in the morning saying i love being in poverty. It is a choice for our society and so your question is a good one in terms of what we are saying because context matters when creating policy. Context matters when deciding on what justice means that looks like. Context matters if we are going to honor and try to protect not just the intent, the words they put down, the words they put down, the words they stood by and it would take polling on the march for justice to make it bacterial. Host in los angeles. Caller thank you for all you are doing and peter, you as well, my parents marched with Martin Luther king and i was so fortunate i grew up in corpus christi, texas, fortunate to be raised in an environment where we were required to see an injustice and i look back at that and not everybody was raised in that environment and i am so thankful that is why it is the way it was with me. I was an activist my whole life. To elaine my friends and others, i want to know what white people can do, people who know that racism is out of control and change must occur and before may 20 fifth and after may 2, 05, george floyd was killed, peter asked you in april of 2015 meant to you. There have been so many. I havent gotten over trayvon martin, i didnt know about tulsa in 1921 until there was a miniseries that came out this year, no one i knew was taught that in school, dont know if it was in history books. What i had done this weekend, earlier yesterday, i made something to send an email to help enlighten folks, do you know about a class divided, jane elliott, the blueeyed brown id experiment . Guest absolutely. Caller i thought that would be a start and theres a documentary called the untold story of emmett chu by keith boucher, dont know if you know that. Host what is your point with that . What is your point of bringing those up . Caller what other documentaries . Education is number one for folks who have context. I just saw a documentary i am not your negro where James Baldwin is faced, doubted what he said. What could they watch, what could they read, what could they do to have context and to be educated and take action whether it is voluntarily. Host lets hear from wes moore. Guest a beautiful question. Thank you for your vulnerability and leadership. I give a lot of credit to your parents and family because the fact that you were raised with social justice as part of your core you were raised right. I am grateful for what you are talking about in the challenge of racism. When we think about what is happening now, in 2020, weve seen two genuine crises thrown at our doorstep, the first was the introduction of a virus that has had catastrophic impact on our society and the other was a reminder of how inequitable policing is. The reality is even though these were different crises they exposed it, dealing with covid19 is not about the discovery of a vaccine in dealing with inevitable policing is not about a limitation of chokeholds. Covid19 didnt just expose but exacerbated the fact that while it impacted everybody it is not impacting everybody. Police reform is necessary, what you mentioned, we saw someone who was handcuffed face down and take his final breath because a grown man was nonchalantly jamming his knee into his neck. The protests that have taken place around the country this is not just simply about policing reform but is about racism and systemic racism and your point about racism and its impact is right. People see that racism is an act, racism is like a person says x or a person goes to a klan rally, i did it but racism isnt just an act. The system that finds its way and moves like water. And changes their focus and core, what i love that you are talking about. How does this make sure we are reading classics like here i stand the fire next time. Watching documentaries, to have exposure to these dynamics that take place but it cannot simply be about how are we going to penetrate individuals but how are we doing it with a focus on dealing with systems. And this does not have to be a binary conversation, and i think about the issue of race, people will say i would rather not talk about it. And i am pretty certain, i have probably said why quite a few things that offended quite a few people. I know i am not going to stop talking because that becomes the problem. When we stop talking about it or we pretend we can move on without being able to do it. When i think about, you brought up an important word in your question which is truth. Where we have had countries that have gone through, stared at their deepest wounds but have done it in a way that they have no we cannot move on to a better place if we are not willing to stare at the deepest wounds in our society. And rwanda and Northern Ireland and colombia and canada twice. Countries that have gone through truth and reconciliation processes, they have to examine things that continue to show themselves in our society if we address it once and for all. The president of the United States has activated National Guard in this country 12 times in our nations history, ten had to do with race. Only twice has the president activated National Guard, one was the looting that took place in new york, the other was the looting that took place in st. Croix and that is it. The fact that you had other countries to explore their deepest roots and say the only way we can move forward as if we move forward with a measure of truth is something i believe is crucial, this country goes through our own process on of federal, local, state and Institution Level to know our history and think about moving forward with an understanding of what our history actually is. Host paul robison and his book here i stand, we ask him or her, here i stand, one of wes moores favorite books along with a fast 5 by mitch alba mentioned the wild by john krakauer. Is currently reading dog flowers, by Danielle Goodyear which is about what . Guest it is a powerful story. When i think of it in context, what it means to define ourselves as americans, what it means to define ourselves as a member of the human race at a time when people are questioning the importance and depth of what that means and one of the reasons i love that story, and because im a datadriven person, i like analysis. And i will want to turn the other wes moore into a 10 step guide for guardians, this was before i had children and asked what he thought, i will be honest with you, that sounds interesting and all but no one wants to read a parenting book by a 30yearold with no children. That is actually a really good point. And told us the story because sometimes statistics can add context but stories promote axon and what does it do . It is both to provide context but also action. Thats one of the reasons i think about all those books and why there is a beautiful and masterful job knowing a person is intimately connected, you have something to fight for because i am a believer that when you know what you are fighting for, and who you are fighting for, you will never stop fighting. That is why that is. Host wes moores second book the work, the subtitle is searching for a life that matters. An email from laura in ellicott city, maryland. Wes moore, i am wondering if you and Tanner Haughey coats knew each other or talk together about baltimore and structural racism. Guest he is another one, very proud, his father, very active inside baltimore and a person i look to and admire deeply. In addition to his son who i am proud of. And we have had a chance to speak a lot about where the city is and where the city is going and why the city is the way it is. I ask people, obviously known for all, Toni Morrison was something before, James Baldwin, dont know if you can give a higher complement to than the brilliance of James Baldwin, you see it all over the place. But if you read a beautiful struggle, a book about his upbringing growing up in baltimore, that is another i worked recommend to people who understand baltimore and its history and consultation and why people are so very proud of the city of baltimore so i am thankful he continues to drive me and so many others and still firmly very much committed to the city, very much firmly committed to the city in the way that i am in the way we know it can and should. Host you mentioned his father paul, a publisher in baltimore and if you go to booktv. Org to our Video Library we took a tour of his publishing plant and we talked about some of the books he publishes, booktv. Org paul coates, you can watch that tour. Next call for wes moore from marjorie in florida. You are on booktv. Caller thank you so much. Mister wes moore, you are an answer to a prayer. I am telling you, you got it down pat. Thank you so much for having the nerve and the tennis study to say the things you say and let nobody turn you around. It is all about the community and not understanding where we come from, how we got here and how we get out of here. Black lives matter, john lewis martin, you all are the answer to how we move forward. The superintendent of school and accounting, bring you here to talk for a couple days because that is what we are working on. Tell us about yourself. What we need to know, tell me, this is my question, do you travel . And host we will get an answer to that. Tell me about that. Caller i didnt hear a word you said, i am so sign. Host we will get an answer from wes moore. What is your answer . Guest you have no idea how you just filled me up. You have filled me up more than you know. I hear it in your passion. I am thankful for the work you are doing for our students and our community. You have no idea how much you filled me up this morning. I tell you one of the joys i have experienced spending time with our students and teachers and leaders and people who are the ones shaping our society the answer is yes, i would love to spend time with you but your comment to me was not just incredibly humbling, one of the most important things that happened to me was once i got a chance to know my truth and my history, when people get that, everywhere i am, i am there because it was written, i knew there were people who were willing to fight for me and advocate for me, my mother and my grandparents. I also know there were people who woke up every morning who never knew who i was and never knew their name and might not know mine but they woke up every morning with the hope and that drives me. It drives me for the fact that i can and should be proud of my history and the fact that i tell people, i dont see color and i tell people not only do i not believe that is not true, i believe that is not the goal. When people say to me i dont see color, what i am hearing is i dont see your blackness as if that is something i should be ashamed of. I am not. I believe, i am thankful for the people who look just like me who fought for the hope of me and so i stand here knowing every room im in i belong there. I am not in any room because of a social experiment, and to prove a point, i am a because i belong there . The role would be incomplete. That is what i want children to understand, walking in their beauty as they are. They are walking in their greatness as they are. Walking in their destiny as they are. They are walking in the sense of hope that there are people and angels surrounding them every single day who might not know their name and their potential and that is what they fight for so marjorie, you fill me up this morning. Host tony is in the bronx. Caller i respect you very much, you are very educated young man. I wanted to say this, you mention about your mother but it is important, that is very important, i have been three times, 58, in relationships but i dont have any children or wife or friends. I have been in relationships i try to explain to a woman that you truly do need a father in their lives. Not just the mother but that hurts children also when they dont have a father to guide them like a mother. But i learned 50 years ago, 58 years ago that a breakdown in their family. There are a lot of young men out here, in new york all my life, a lot of people doing the right thing, they dont have the guidance of a black man. I have two sisters and a mother that she is here but the thing in my experience, when you of the woman in all respects, i love black women, dont want the black man in the family. Host lets hear from wes moore. Guest blessings, and great to hear your voice. It is interesting, in the context anything from the other wes moore that didnt make it into the book that you wish would . The only answer i can think of is one thing and that was when i transitioned i want to write about this. The ask can you write something to find your father . Only two memories of my father, watching him die in front of me. Was only has three memories of his father, the last one when he was 13 years old and asked him who he was. His father lived around the corner and had no relationship with him. Can you write a letter to your father and give him something . Wes moore hesitated and turned around and 5 pages more and it was the most fascinating mix of love and support and empathy and apathy and hatred that you could ever read in one letter. It is fascinating to me because i thought about it where i would have to show it to my publisher, he said to me did you do it . I said that i do what . He said have you written a letter to your father . I said no. He said you shouldnt ask something you are not willing to do something are not willing to do yourself. I went to his grave site and sat with a legal pad and pen and started writing, not editing, just what was on my mind and showed my publisher that and he said to me i will be honest with you, i dont know if yours is any less confusing. The point he was making and the point i took from it is in many ways we both wrestle with something very complicated. We both wrestle with this absence, this void. My father was a special man, from every story i heard from family, his friends, that he was a good friend, good husband, good man. I think about that in context when he says listen, our fathers couldnt be there for different reasons. They are different in different ways. The reality is your point is the right one, the void is real. We have to be able to lift up and celebrate, not just how powerful in many ways a black woman has been to function as glue within our society but also we have to stop doing damage and continuing to put out a lot of false narratives about things we are seeing has black men and being engaged. Very much a policy keeping people from being engaged. When talking about the kickoff in mass incarceration is just one of the men books telling people you can reintegrate with your family but they are in public housing, you cant join them or they will be asked to do public housing. So many restrictions, everything from power grants, childsupport payments, incentives and disincentives, we need to think about what it is we want from our society and the honest answer we want engagement, we want unified families, we need to stop making it so difficult, and think about it from a truly holistic process where we bring a lot of voices and perspectives into the conversation but the way they are standing right now this is not useful or helpful for anybody. I think of it right now, my children who i adore and the fact is they have a wonderful mother. I couldnt think about how challenging it would be even right now, the fact that we have this unified front but also how it was for my mom, how difficult it must have been for so many other moms or single dads who have to do it on their own. Creating those structures to make those things real are tense. Host it is much often mentioned in your books, when we taped an interview with you earlier, your most recent book five days, one of your sons got into the picture but unfortunately we cut that out and i wish we left it in because he zipped us through the office to visit you. Guest it is one thing i will always say in this moment of Different Things and it goes back to miss marjories point, black kids are allowed everywhere. I will have meetings with anybody, i dont know if my son or daughter enters into the frame but i always let them know you are welcome everywhere. Even if they pop in before this interview ends, i am okay with it. Host we would love to see it. Steve in gaithersburg, maryland. Guest context about freddie gray and his background, if you would comment on black lives matter being a Marxist Organization that wants to destroy the society, families, especially that the police in the freddie gray case were acquitted and if you do have time, dealing with the riots. Guest i will tell you when black lives matter pool to gather especially having known, with the organization, started again with not just an acknowledgment but a real fear of what we were seeing about treating black lives and accountability. You bring up a really important point, even if you think about two years prior to freddie gray, what happened before that, there were other names involved in this misconduct and the things people saw, something would happen. A payoff would happen and it would go away. There is a misconception about what happened in baltimore and this goes back to the question where people think the thing that calms everything down was when larry hogan called in the National Guard. That is what brought the temperature down, that is not true. Brought everything down in baltimore, as someone who has worn the uniform, sometimes when you dress for conflict conflict happens but here is the thing that i do now, the thing that brought the temperature down was when the state attorney who at the time, mosley, when she pressed charges against those six officers, baltimore was shot. The first time involved for history that has been done. We had charges being filed and never being in baltimore when those charges were filed. And that is an important thing to note because that was actually what changed the temperature when people thought at the moment there might be accountability for what they were seeing and what the department of justice showed, a practice toward discriminatory behavior. There is Something Different about what we are seeing for george floyd and the bar before was this idea of an indictment. Now the bar has been risen where you see these officers with george floyd, and not just an indictment, this is about a conviction. And the thing, your point about the governors book, one of the things that was incredibly disheartening and disappointing was in the governors book when he did describe freddie as a gang connected streetlevel gunrunner with a long criminal rap sheet the reality is i studied this and dug deeply into this along with a journalist reporter, not just a good friend but a great reporter who collaborated with me, there was no evidence of this connection but second of all, for the governor to make insinuation like that inside this book, freddie is gone and he cant defend his own character. The governor seems to have forgotten especially to understand the context of freddie gray. Ie gray. The governor seems to either have forgotten our does not recognize the fact that freddie was his constituent two. And so freddies death was almost inevitable result of the accumulation of societal failures. Of policy failures, of leadership when people say when the governor says people shouldnt confuse freddie gray with a singer in the g church choir, i dont audit also freddie gray never had a shot. That is that distinction that is important to be able to draw and the pushback thats important to be able to draw about what exactly is the take away from those moments and what exactly should we as a society and in the case of you and i, what do we do as marylanders to be able to rethink that come to make sure these things dont have to keep happening and we dont have to continue adding names, but also adding frustration and disillusionment to an already complicated situation. Host the heritage report put out a report that 22 trillion have been spent on the war on poverty since lbj founded it, and the poverty rate is still about the same as it was in 1967. I96 want you to respond to this text we received. These address how government welfare enslaves people and leads to perverse incentives in life decisions and dependent on the government check instead of selfreliance. Guest el youre absolutely right about weve had this war on poverty that is going on since the time of lbj but as someone who has seen war, war means you willing to dispose every single to an asset to your ability to win. We have notav done that with poverty. The rally is thats not something, thats not an indictment on a political party, not an indictment on the administration because i can show you inconsistent policies that weve had that of both put people and kept people in poverty. The reality is we do have policies that we cant and should be rethinking. We do have policies that we should be recrafting because policy positions matter in moments like now and one challenge i would make and then comment, we talk about with welfare systems and this incentivizing. The reality is that weve watched over the past, in 11 weeks we saw, 11 years, of job growth gone. The reality is that when 2 of people of lost their jobs due to covid19 are people who were living in poverty before covid19. I view this as the working poor. These are people who are working jobs in many cases multiple jobs and still were not living above the poverty line. The reality is that we could just take a at new york city alone, half of new yorkers have lived in poverty for at least a year overav the past four years, precovid19. Half of the city. Not half of a borough, not half of a demographic. Half of the city was living in poverty over the past four years. Thats research with columbia university. When youre talking about these kinds of dynamics and you have situation where half of the half of the city has been living inn party for at least a year for the past four years of unemployment that still around 4 theres a massive disconnect here. When we are talking about policies come talking about ways to build to support families, here are some policy recommendations we could do to address some of the things you are speaking about. And at the same time know we are going to benefit our population, particularly are most vulnerable. When were talking butar how doe continuep to spend federal unappointed insureds, because thats necessary and it is necessary now that it is ever been before. How do we make permanent expansion of the earned income tax credit to include childless adults . How do we think about making asic adjustments to the Child Tax Credit and making Child Tax Credit fully refundable come increased benefit amounts to support children of families through economic downturn . This becomes important because these are things that could actually end poverty and merely an almost half of child party particularly incredibly complicated time but what it means is it doesnt need when were creating support for people that it is some of being seen as handouts. But as we are creating supports for most vulnerable give them a pathway to longterm success, to give them an ability to make it through an economic downturn and, frankly, that they had nothing to do with, that really becomes not just a moral obligation but, frankly, becomes the most effective thing, the most effective way we can think about our resources and particularly our resources when it comes to how were going to come out and recover from this issue come from thiss issue goig forward. If you look at Unemployment Insurance we know for every dollar of Unemployment Insurance that comes in that we get about 1. 80 back into the g economy. There are ways to leverage this but we just have to be incredibly thoughtful and deliberate about that. Host destiny in wisconsin, 30 seconds for you and a 30second answer from wes moore. Go ahead. Caller thank you so much. Im a Firm Believer in economy when would make people feel hard and that we make them feel like the matter, great thingsl happen and we moved to change. With elected officials breaking the laws is supposed to uphold come with for suppression come gerrymander, justification, all of them being real issues, i question to you is to what extent does power or the lack thereof affect everyday individuals . Host thank you. 30 seconds. Guest of brilliant question thank you for the question. Its everything. Because even when youst talk a policies put in place, talking about the role philanthropy does its not just about how can we provide support tickets howst ae we sharing power and sharing autonomy. That we are not here to save people. People dont need saving. We have toon focus on removing barriers that is making lots of complicated for people, and so its a big question but power, autonomy and freedom have got to be Guiding Principles in the way were thinking about our policies, our philanthropy and a work going forward. Host wes moore has been our guest for the last two hours on booktv. We appreciate your time. We appreciate all of your calls and texts. President trump travels to wisconsin to because the edit session about Community Safety following the civil unrest after another Police Shooting of a black man. We will have the discussion live at 2 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan2. Weeknights this month were preaching booktv programs as aa preview of whats available every weekend on cspan2. Enjoy booktv on cspan2. Today treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin testifies before the Coronavirus Crisis subcommittee on the state of the u. S. Economy in the wake of the coronavirus pandemic. Watch live at one p. M. Eastern on cspan, online at cspan. Org or listen live with the free cspan radio app. To date is august 4, 2020