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And follow us on facebook to be notified about our fantastic events. From the bestselling author of lawrence in arabia, gripping history of the early years of the cold war, the cias covert battle against communism and the tragic consequences which look like america and the world today. At the end of world war ii the United States dominated the world militarily, economically and in moral standing. A champion of freedom, it is clear to some the soviet union was executing a plan to expand implement revolution around the world. The American Government strategy and response relied on the secret efforts of newly formed cia. The quiet americans 4 cia spies at the dawn of the cold wara tragedy in 3 acts chronicles, michael burke, a former football star fall one on hard times. Frank wisner, a wealthy southern family, sophisticated german jew who escaped the nazis and edward ran sale, a brilliant ad executive. The covert operations, ruthless kgb in berlin, parachuting commandos in Eastern Europe, directing wars against communist insurgents, time and again efforts went awry. Stupidity and ideological frigidity at the highest levels of the government and the decision to abandon american ideals. By the mid1950s there was a stranglehold on Eastern Europe, the beacon of democracy was overthrowing it, democratically elected government and earning the hatred of much of the world. All of this culminated in an act of betrayal and cowardice that would lock the cold war and replace for decades to come. Anderson brings the telling of the story, all the narrative, skeptical eye and lawrence in arabia a Major International bestseller. They began in a common purpose of defending freedom, led them to this. Stricken by the moral compromises they had to make, one became the archetype of duplicitous and destructive everyone would be so heartbroken. The story of how the United States at the pinnacle of its power managed to damage its moral standing in the world, and Patrick Okeefe says in this sweeping, beautifully observed book, Scott Anderson unearths the devastating secret of how the United States lost during the cold war. The colorful lives, and a larger geopolitical saga of an intimate story of flawed but talented men, the disease of empires and the inescapable moral hazard of idealism, the consequences of espionage and interventionism that resonates powerfully today. Scott anderson is the author of two novels, works of nonfiction including lawrence of arabia, International Bestseller which was the finalists circle award, he is a corresponding writer for the New York Times magazine. Scott anderson will be in conversation with julian sancton, feature editor at departure magazine, worked at publication in vanity fair, the author of the upcoming Nonfiction Book the house at the end of the world about an illfated 19thcentury antarctic expedition, a link for that if you want to preorder that. Im happy to welcome Scott Anderson and julian sancton, today is the publication day, the same day offers get to see their books in tiles for the first time. Help me celebrate that by giving scott and julian applause so we can all hear it. Thanks so much for having us. For everybody tuning in. This is such a critical period in terms of geography and time. You dealt with this, focusing on four people, extremely influential, maybe not household names, how did you settle on this and those four guys. I was a product of the cold war, series of frontlines, south korea, taiwan and asia, they are military dictatorships, in americas pocket. I grew up with that. And and came to the conclusion. Over the span of the cold war. Almost 50 years. Have so much was to come, set into place. In the mid1950s. In 1944 fdr talked about world war ii being the end of empire, the british and french empire and america was going to be the harold of democracy and go 12 years on, 1956 and now the United States is paying and not bringing democracy but overthrowing the position. How did that happen, that arc of history. It occurred to me the history i like to write, generals or statesmen, men and women on the front lines and when it comes to the cold war, frontline, once you infiltrate each side, inspiring, great, guess you are right about that. The process of finding these, in the time period, two of the men and took a lot, and during this timeframe who then left the paper trail and after looking at this, 25 to focus on i ended up with these four, the proverbial, peter is still alive, 97 years old, the last surviving member of the cold war period and completely lucid and agreed to a series speaking of the paper trail. One challenge you face if you are writing a history of an agency dedicated to secrecy and deception. Writing reliable stories, how the cia must have been rejecting what they were able to put out, how to get unredacted memoir, tell us about that. There is censorship send tends to be incompetent. They are redirected by that, they lose it. The name they redacted. And in topsecret meetings and memorandums of the meeting to the memorandums, all blacked out and barely touched. He wrote about autobiography in the cia had to go in front of that, all the best parts were excised but it was the cia official, he went to Boston University about unredacted, details to take that. Two others struck me as could have made for great characters, Rufus Phyllis could have been one. I believe you spoke to one another 90yearold but to get into this, would he ask it . Somewhere in between. Guys who are still around, they live under a lifelong, to the day they die, to talk about, i want to talk about, the station chief in berlin at the end of world war ii in 1952. Ground 0 of the competition during those years. What were the pressures you face . Early on, one thing he was clear about was how clueless the americans were going up against the soviets, deception and disinformation down to a fine art. The other thing i should add is a sign of how out to lunch americans were on this. In west berlin the covert operations chief in 1945 there were hundreds if not thousands operating in berlin. Peter heading up a 9 man unit and just turned 22 and that is what he was up against, the soviet monolith and he told the story in 1946 that they were running chains of informants all through east germany, eastern germany, they are all run by former German Military officers and typical german arrogance, and talk about one night one guy disappeared in 24, 48 hours, 300 people, had their chains completely wired. 67 years later got emotional about it. The kgb through the period we talk about got their act together, america is winging it whereas the kgb got smart levels, elaborate hoaxes, is that still the case where the inheritors of the kgb are in elections, are we living through the consequences review continuation of the period we are talking about in these agencies . You see it today, the day world war ii happened and even before world war ii ended the soviets understood the next enemy, going to be adversaries, americans were slow to understand that in april of 1945 as the war was ending and for some crucial years imagine the Wartime Alliance might be safe, two crucial years were demilitarized while soviets were taking over Eastern Europe, that is one thing. The things they do in the field, to the western mind kind of unbelievable. They do this very recently, to the west, he came across and said i want to defect and to build it up, he will rat out other russian or soviet agents, these are his colleagues, got arrested and thrown into prison, sometimes if it is an important enough operation one guy could rat out a dozen of colleagues under orders from the top. This is the coldblooded notice in other ways no western intelligence agency, we dont sacrifice them in order to help one. From the path apology of one man, the whole idea with the paranoia it takes to behave that way and treat human life as expendable. Is that an exaggeration to say the kgb and now and the ruthlessness at the beginning, extension of his own ruthlessness and paranoia . It adds to the figure of stalin added to the paranoia and even panic, already, already they had nobody behind the iron curtain, i was stunned by that. I had no idea the cia didnt the ministry of agriculture, nobody. On top of that a figure like stalin, a paranoid sociopath, what is he capable of doing next. It is silly but if anybody saw the movie fargo the geopolitics remind me of that. Fargo is the story of gardner id, no one is supposed to get hurt. But sociopaths run in the middle of it. I really think trying to figure out what was next revolved around this unpredictable character. One area where it seems the cia had some success and the soviets as far as i can tell didnt hide behind it is psychological warfare. Is it correct to say we are doing it on the level, tell me the origins of edward lansdale. One of the four i follow in asia. And add executive, at a time when communist insurgencies were starting in the philippines, a very simple concept that if you want to defeat communists over the populace, they can leave it in a state system, and the philippines, for decades by a corrupt oligarchy, the same thing happening now and somebody not out to rob a country. As far as actual fighting against communist insurgency out of barracks into the field, not just to fight the communists seen as a force of good among people, rebuild schools and bridges, bring in harvests, lansdale had a huge role in the early 1960s, by 1964 vietnam broke up. The cia director, do the same thing. He comes close to being successful and handpicked the president to come in and handpicked the new Prime Minister in vietnam and the bureaucracy, got so big it is a small subtle hearts and minds ideas by this huge military bureaucracy. A military mission in South Vietnam and 12 other guys to be followed by 3 million bars. The intervention in vietnam, led out of the crisis, several exit ramps could have defused the cold war, these moments where things could have gone differently and ended the war. In 1934, roosevelts idea, the resolution of world war ii was supposed to bring. He dies three weeks before the end of the war in europe. Truman is in way over his head. He first meets stalin, that summer, he is honest, smart, selfassured and he was wrong on all counts and that is where you see this moment. Fdrs death was an awful fork in the road. He was he have reacted to a usurping of Eastern Europe. The other great turning point, the hungarian revolution, spontaneous revolution. People rose up in the streets, the hungarian military joined the revolution and there was a key moment when khrushchev said we have to let hungary go, we cant do this militarily, so the tanks were leaving hungary and the next day november 1st over the course of the night khrushchev, americans do something to help the revolutionaries, do an aboutface, they are not coming and if we let hungary go, we are going the cancer will spread and we will lose fat. The sad thing the Eisenhower Administration was talking about against communism encouraging people in Eastern Europe and finally this happened. So they were crushed. Which good intentions, living up to the idea of america as the morally right upstanding postwar savior and all of it went pearshaped after a while and they ended up participating, pretty horrible things, backing up dictators, letting down legitimate movements. I see it, easy to do that, 70 years of hindsight, standing in judgment of people. What happened to almost all of these is very gradual. A gradual process. In germany right after the war they started working with military Intelligence Officers who know what is happening. Then it becomes people who are members of the nazi party and you go on and on working with bona fide nazi war criminals. They fall the cold war every other day, happens all the time, and x essential crisis. World war ii veterans, to come into this new contest the ends justify the means and all four, certainly sle as far as social issues, we could foster them all. We dont have the luxury of time. I try easiest passing judgment. All of them were pained by the moral, you know, decisions they had to make. One thing we talk about is what is going on in the home front, the reaction to the red scare and the perpetual enemy of the cia, j andrew hoover, the fbi, assisting mccarthy in his witchhunt to suss out communists, the hunt that led to leading nowhere, that moment in American Society that we are seeing now, there might have been democrats and republicans before but where you stood on this system, for example the alger his case and existence of the fifth column of soviet spies where you stood on that question, your kids and their kids would be liberal or conservative. Very true. The way, the first great schism, the whole red scare where people if you bought into this idea of a vast communist conspiracy, your politics went a certain way, if you thought and that was the case, your politics went another way and politics are largely inherited. So from that schism, wasnt called red and blue back then but you could march along, the skin people whose children were against the war. His grandchildren were against the iraq war voting democratic in this on the other side. This is the great schism in american politics started and had a direct effect on the men military men and cia, the grand wizard in charge of october operations around the world. The next cia director. Right at the moment it looked like he was going to become the director J Edgar Hoover launched another round of investigations. 7 years earlier. This is a return pattern, he was investigated by the fbi on hoovers investigation his entire life and an amazing story, with all of these infiltration operations, behind the line, almost all of them were disasters. It reached the point he started struggling with the operation, the success rate was 0. The more operations he canceled the Moorefield Office is sponsoring the program to go forward the more they got angry and wondered why he kept them in operation. These guys along with what was happening, working over their shoulder that they can be investigated. The spies that were certainly operating on our shores, for example the most notorious one, what we trusted the most. Tell us about him. What hoover would do, in 1945, this woman courier came in and confessed, hoover put 250 special agent, they address code, they had a dress code, suit ties, short hair, all men, and bona fide soviet spies, they are detailed, no convictions out of them at all. Hoover was constantly chasing the wrong people and that is the pattern going to the 1970s. Back to nation building, you mentioned lansdale and what happened in the in politics or nationbuilding around the world. A great question. In taiwan and democracy, the years hardcore military certification. With the pressure americans put on it. A few examples around the world with successful nationbuilding, infuriated those people, that is where it comes in 1964. Certainly didnt do a great job. When in every four characters who would you prefer to be about . Great question. And a dramatic story, the tragedy, it is kind of a comedy, it was before james bond was extraordinarily handsome guy, he was running this program, along the line in albania. Its such a all those stories just sort of weved together and theres interactions between them. So perfectly hitched together associates its fantastic book. Thank you. I wish the thought occurred to me, i wish this kept going and there was a prequel. I wish Scott Anderson could write the history of the 20th 20th century. We had world war 1 and you have the decade post war decade and then theres only eight left. Yeah, only eight. Thank you, man. , you i want to remind the audience if you have questions you can type those up and we can ask those to scott or julian as well. And reminder that the book is available for sale at left bank books. Com and this keeps the event series going. I want to ask a question about you did mention kind of the continuation and where we are now a little bit. I was wondering if thereany pages in he maybook from that time that maybe shouldnt be in the playbook still but you think are, like do you know anything more about that, about the more kind of dastardly things happening there that were being encouraged that might be still tactics that the cia are using today . You know, not so much the cia as the russians, yeah. I think that what is kind of amazing is watching how much what putins government not russias and the soviet union but how much theyve taken up the playbook of the old kgb. The game of disinformation, and deception, that are bombarded with the past four or five years. One thing ill say, in talking with people in the cia, there a bit annoyed the talk out of the Trump Administration is theyre part of the deep state but they understand thats politics. What really based on seeing russia an adversarial make. Theyre not our friend. And they are everyone i have talked to is both deeply concerned and suspicious as to why our president seems to refuses to see it [inaudible] so i kind of answered your question in a roundabout way but thats to my mind what really jumps out of me in seeing the parallels from the period i was writing about to today. Its really the russians. I wanted you to i listened to the interview on fresh air today, and i wanted if you it didnt come up i wanted the story but the woman getting killed, i forget where you were so if you can tell that story as well here. Sure. This is el salvador in 1984. I was an aspiring journalist, just starting out, and by 1984, the dirty work in Central America had been going on and that these ultra eight wing governments being supported by the Reagan Administration, and basically these words almost everything were being by right wing death squads which were part of the government. But the Reagan Administration in order to support the governments had to maintain a fiction that somehow the death squads and the government were two separate entities. So, i was in san salvador, the capitol, in 1984 and i was walking down a boulevard in downtown san salvador and i just happened to be the only person walking on the walk and this van passed me, pulled to the curb hundred feet in front of me and a body of a young woman was thrown out on to the sidewalk, the classic death squader, shed been shot in at the head and the body was thrown out and then pulled back into traffic and drives way. Started walking toward this woman and before i got there, maybe a matter of ten seconds, a military van pulls up next to her body, three soldiers jumped out. One points a gun at my feet, stay back. The other two grab the body and throw it in the van and they drive off. So its just this little sleight of hand, this very apparent the anonymous death squads, dropping this body, and then ten seconds later the military coaches along to collect it. And this was happening routinely and theres something about that incident that really struck me as other things hadnt and i remember thinking, how did we come to is in . How is it that the American Government can support another government that is murdering people in broad daylight, and how how has the idea of anticommunism become so even Something Like this, you just wrap it in the banner of communists and were anticommunist. Something like this can happen. For me personally that was kind of a real turning point, just saying then got me thinking about the past, the revolutions and coupes the American Government has pulled off and the countries are so much worse afterwards. Me question for both of you in that time period would you rather be a spy or a write center. Julian, you can take that one. Id rather be one of the many spies turned writer. John lecarre. Had a life jim of material to draw from. Really good answer. I would apart you parrot you on that. A spy first and then a writer. Barbara is asking i wonder if you watched the americans and how realistic you thought it was portraying russian spies living in the u. S. I actually didnt watch it, and so many times when i mentioned to friends i was working on this book they would ask me do you watch the americans and i consistent of deliberately didnt. Like when i was writing laurent of arabia, people would say how many times have you seen the film. Saw it once as a kid and not while i was wrying the book. From what i understand of the series, kind of based on true story that happened 15 areas ago where ten russian spies came spa the United States and they attempted to live normal lives but they were all to deal with fake names and spying on different ways. Having not seen the show i dont know what epps. If theres a lot of violence and betrayal and duplicity, that seems kind of par for the course for the soviet union and russian secret service. There are any spy movies or tv or anything like that, that you have seen, even documentaries, that you feel accurately kind of portray . Im thinking like argo. Do you feel like that there is anything like that you feel portrays spy life realistically . I think julian mentioned lecarre. Lecarre comes close toast really capturing a spys life and its not james bond, its not robert ludlum. Its a lonely business. Everybody i spoke with either got divorced or had serious marital problems. Youre living a lie, double life it and is very lonely for that reason. Your friends, but john lecarre theres a british series [inaudible] and i think thats really quite brilliant. I think the spy world is so complicated and so many twists and doubletwiststwiststwiststwe quests its hard to capture the byzantine nature of it. Im trying to think of anyone i have seen that portrayed it. I would recommend the lecarre series. Barbara is recommending i led three lives a tv program in the oh, also saying, i thread three lives at a tv prom in the late 50s or 60s that deals with spies. So, if we have any other questions from the audience or julian do you have another question you might want to ask . I do want to second that recommendation of the lecarre sir, Alec GuinnessGeorge Smiley and gary oldman picked up the character. But youre right. This intentionally inconspicuous life he leads is the opposite of glamor and then contrast with michael burk who was given the budget to spend lavishly. And and that is what people think spying was. Thats right. And sometimes it is. And i think its especially true that it was like that in the early period. Thats another the big historical reasons for picking this period, what im also fascinated by, im fascinate by people who are able to affect change, affect history, through their own force of personality, and the fact is the cia the early cia you have largely left to their own devices. Theyre allowed to experiment and see what worked. And a way that wasnt was not true close 1960s it changed dramatically. That period before things become bureaucratized decisions made by guys sitting behind a desk. Thats the period i alphas nateed by. You mentioned burk. He was broke and he moved to new york and wanted to this is after world war ii. And moved to be a writer and we have heard this story before. He was so down on his luck at one point he had a little daughter and her stroller had been stolen from the apartment and the didnt have enough money to buy a new stroll stroller. He gets a call out the blue from a guy who wants to have a conversation with him, wants to offer him a job but wont identify what agency she is with and in fact the coordination the unit the covert Operations Unit at the cia, the name alone, policy coordination, was classified for 25 years. You couldnt utter the name out loud. So, anyway, burk meets with these two guys who. Come up from washington and meet him in new york and theyre sitting around and they say what do you know but albania . And burk doesnt know nation but albania. Nobody knows anything about albania. Its right above greece in southEastern Europe. And these two guy goes we want you to start a revolution there. And burk is like, hes broke. He is thinking where do i sign . Sure, ill go. And he has could tom up with a consider story, most of the reefs from albania are in rome so he and his wife have to be in rome and his job ising the around a lot of money, becomes a man of leisure, and what kind of cover story can i come up with where i dont do much and hang out in cafes a lot, i have a lot of money. And so they consulted a Film Producer and he ends up hanging out with this whole italian movie scene in rome. [loss of audio] at a certain opinion im not actually producing, people will get suspicious, what do you actually do here . But as it turned out, the italian film people are just as selfabsorbed as hollywood and all they want to do is talk about themselves. They never ask him a question so he could still be a Film Producer over there for as much as they care. I love that story. I love that. Who knows if they were even producing anything or just sitting around smoking and talking about it. Thats right. Thats right. So a different scott is asking, did your sources have to clear anything that they chose to tell you with the cia censors or had the statute tattoo of limitations statute of limitations run its course. This was in the previous conversation. No. The people i talked with are all not all, most of them were retired, and i think the its so long ago, even some of the stuff was somewhat classified is kind of ridiculous. Theres this club sense in the cia and other government eights i have dealt with over the years, every they slap secret for top secret on everything. Everything is a matter of National Security and the most ridiculous stuff. So i think theres the kind of trusted resistance how they do that. One thing i wanted to mention with burks uncensored manuscript. The describes a scene where he is in berlin with John Foster Dulles, eisenhowers secretary of state. People were protesting against the regime. The [loss of audio] crushed quickly. A year later John Foster Dulles is in bur len and meets with burk and says id like you to create a disturbance in east berlin and what he is asking for is a repeat of what happened in europe before. And people getting machine gunned in the streets. This is the secretary of state suggesting this. And he says burk said what is the purpose of this . Because its going to fail. He said yeah but it would embarrass the soviets. So, coldblooded. That story that burk had in his autobiography when it went to cia review board they took out everything. Theres absolutely no mention of that story in the published version of this book. So on what background this is something that happened in 1964. Youre just protecting the reputation of the secretary of state who died 60 years ago. So whats the point in how is that National Security . Dont get me Start Talking about censorship. I want to thank you both so mump. Happy book birthday to you. Julian, hope we get to see you in st. Louis or hopefully maybe in real person for your book because that would be really exciting. I know we have a lot of fans of expedition type books and spies. Is the vaccine before may 4th . Ill be there. Not much of an audience. Just you and a bubble. Well, thank you both so much. Congratulations on the book and for the audience, the book is available for sale also of today, yay. Thank you so much. Thank you, julian, great questions. Have a good night everyone. See you later. Good evening and were live. Hello, on behalf of romans book store aid like to welcome you to our Virtual Event with susan hough and henry fountain. If you see