81971. A white house out more, a revolt in the streets and the untold history. That event is this thursday the 24th. You can find information about it and all of our happenings and events at twitter, facebook an instagram as well as powells. Co powells. Com. Tonight we are very excited to welcome hes an attorney political activist and antitrust and collections expert. A rising star on the left, her campaign for the near attorney general in 2018 was endorsed by bernie sanders, the New York Times and others. She was part of the team of lawyers that sued donald trump for allegedly violated the clause of the constitution. She sits on the board of the directors of the open markets institute and teaches law. In her new book, break them up recovering freedom from big gag, big tech and big money, she offers a call for liberals looking to find a common cause. She makes a compelling case that monopolies of the root cause of many of the issues that todays progressives care about. They derive economic inequality, hardly planet and limit the average citizens power and historically disenfranchise groups that bear the brunt of their shameful and irresponsible business practices. In order to build a Better Future we must eradicate monopolies from the private sector, and create new safeguards to prevent new ones from taking power. Joining in conversation is a columnist from the Washington Post, senior fellow at the brookings institution, professor at Georgetown University and visiting professor at harvard university. He is coauthor of the recent near times best seller, one nation after trump and why the white right went wrong pretty snow but code red how progressive and moderates can unite to save our country, he provides a blueprint for change that stresses the need for coalition and First Political orientation as it will be across the lines of race, region ethnicity. From democratic socialist to those who was once been called liberal republicans. Code red calls for shared commitment, decency and politics focus on freedom, fairness in the future. Encouraging progressives and moderates to sustain the unity for democrat victories in the 2018 election and offers a unifying model entered on solving problems, restoring dignity to those left behind in tackling issues like gun violence, low eight wages in healthcare. Its a pleasure to have you both here to join us in this conversation. They will be taking questions later on in our program. So you can use that q a button at the bottom of your screen there to submit those questions. We do ask you submit questions in the q a field rather than in the chat. We are so happy to have you both here to talk about these very needy and weighty conversations and topics. Thank you for joining us. Sweetie thanks much for having us. Smacks what a joy to be is where the great bookstores in our country. An infected zephyr has a great line in her book which we will get to about the difference between seeking a maximization. Bookstores are good oldfashioned moral profitseeking rather than profit maximization. I just want to say its a great joy to be here. We were talking before we went on that i first heard of this in 2003, the end of 2003, some of you may remember out there howard dean was raising all this money online. It was this brandnew thing. I said who is doug this . And they told me this brilliant twentysomething woman named zephyr teachout. I wanted to know who she was and where she got her really interesting name. And how she had pulled this off or it is real joy to be with you, to talk about this great book of yours. Guest it is such a pleasure to be with you. Its also remembering that. Give for covering the experiments and democracy we were engaged at the time. We will get into it. But i think there is really a deep shared theme here that has to do with freedom and dignity. In sort of recovering politics that really center themselves in these core values. And only when we move back in november these values, can we actually move forward. Anyway, im really grateful for you to during this conversation with me. Host thank you. Economic dignity is a core argument of this book, my book, code red. I felt economic dignity running through these pages of your boo book. I wanted to start was something i think is on the minds of a lot of people who might be watching this, which is the day after Ruth Bader Ginsburg and the fact that we are facing and normas court fight, that we actually should not be having until next year, in my view and i think in your view. Are planning a sixth conservative justice on the board is very disturbing to us both. But i think i want to start there with your book. Because, people talk a lot about issues. I think if we dont talk enough about the ways in which Court Decisions have in recent years really undercut our democracy itself. We can talk later about the citizens in the decision which you are cited both by the late John Paul Stevens in his dissent and then Justice Gildea goes after you which is a high honor and complement to you. But in the book you talk about how and t monopoly antitrust is fundamentally change, our notion of what it meant was change in the 1980s. We can go historically back a bit. He talked about how group of conservative judges particularly after opposer reinterpreted the meeting of antitrust. Let me just quote you at yourself. They reinterpreted antitrust laws as price protection tools. They rejected these laws were designed to curb despotism. What i want to do here is talk a bit about the fight over the court and how people thinking about it. How the interpretation of antitrust laws really changed along trajectory that goes back to the 1880s in our country. And certainly during a progressive. Absolutely. A brief bit about before reagan and then what reagan brought in. And the true judicial revolution and economic power. Which is, we are living in that legacy now. Before 1980 there is a really broad understanding that economic power, overly concentrated economic power was a risk to democracy. And there was a value in having decentralized power. There is a value in strictly enforcing antitrust laws. Even that way. Theres a couple compasses can emerge you said theres a risk that merger could lead to them having so much power that they effectively control entire industry. And then have that power seep into our political steer. Justice douglas said all forms of a private power tend to form into a government in and of themselves. There is just broad understanding that anti monopoly, antitrust is a democratic tool. In a key democratic tool. And when reagan came in, he had a few key agendas. One was eight notsosubtle agenda to restore was the language he would use. Very much an anti the rights agenda. And along with that, anti civil rights agenda he brought with his california wrecking crew recent baxter and others, a deregulatory agenda. But at the heart of that deregulatory agenda was changing antitrust. We talked about at the time. We see profiles of his Close Associates like baxter. They say there to agendas or overturning civil rights and changing antitrust laws. Why antitrust . But they made that a core part of their agenda. And reagan did a few things very quickly. One is he appointed enforcers did not what to enforce. Its something we are very familiar with right now with the trump administration. And the number of cases just radically dropped. And the enforcers started saying there is an antitrust case and theres there is a real problem with the threat of prices going up. But then he also just filled the courts. And among others appointed justice khalifa. But it wasnt just gildea. It was judges throughout the country who basically rewrote antitrust laws through judicial decisions. You dont need to be an expert in this area to understand a few basic things. One, antitrust laws because like constitutional. The key antitrust law, the sherman act is about as long as a first amendment. Its really short. Basically says you may not monopolize. So it like short portions of our constitution, justices and judges have an enormous impact. Because how they interpret what monopolize mean, shifted radically from the 70s to the 80s and 90s of today. And moved from understanding monopoly when theres too much market power to today when we only think about in terms of the prices are going to rise. So the real impact the human impact is weve been in a 40 year wave. You see in every industry. We are talking today, such a consequential decision i think it is wholly illegitimate to try to appoint, im hoping we can stop it, its hard. I justice at this moment. But while we talk about these other issues, remember that a justice economic theory, his or her understanding about the relationship between citizens, powers, and worker, that can have in a normas impact on inequality, on power and on our democracy. In the antitrust ideology of the rights, right now is basically why even have this . In fact warmer thing and then i want to turn back to you is, scalia actually during his appointments, during his confirmation hearings, was asked about antitrust. And what he said is, i never understood in law school. And later i realized i didnt need to because it doesnt make any sense anyway. It was a joke. But it shows how trivially they take this serious went i see as a core protection of citizens having power, not being governed by private corporations. So when i think youre discussing a bit, trust is so important to this coming because the standard conservative saying that they say all the time is liberals rewrite law from the bench. In fact, in your book you show some of the most radical rewrites of law have been done by conservatives. And i also think its so important to see these fights in terms of democracy. When you look at Citizens United, a decision that undercut laws against the money power, the power of money and politics. And then the decision that undercut the Voting Rights act. It was empowering very wealthy people and disempowering average americans import people. Its an astonishing use of power. That was done by conservatives overturning years of precedents. Guest youre absolutely right. Both of those cases where such divergence from precedent. In Shelby County it was a shocking amount of creativity that is a generous word, on Justice Roberts apart. And actually the preceding case of Citizens United, when i started writing about corruption because you can see the writing on the wall. It was when Justice Roberts its really roberts court. Its a very corporate court. Roberts acted impatient with the idea that corruption could be anything but an explicit quid pro quo. He said in a 2007 opinion, enough is enough why are we even talking about corruption . When he did that, ask aaliyah has done and some really consequential decisions and antitrust law he was engaged in terrible history, disrespectful history, bad law bad history bad precedents. It is not conservative in a sense. It is a real imposition. A form of corporate government, and what comes across in these cases and im glad you show the connection is there really dismissive of democracy. And think i will the private sector will work it all out. And as we see, the normas cost of corporate concentration in corporate ruthlessness in the corporate sector is not working it out. We believe in democracy, that is a core value in a lot of these justices inks its a dirty game pretty think that is one of the things that comes through in Citizens United. You mention the true decisions that haunt me Shelby CountyCitizens United, want to ask you about the most interesting word in your book. And what i took to be the most interesting and liberating sentence in your book. The most interesting word in the book, is chicken his nation. Not an idea you are not talking about kfc or chickfila. If you could talk about chicken is asian. But what i took to be the most liberating sentence in the book, we can build any kind of Corporate Law and Market Structure we want. I just think of such an important idea. Because we hear people talk about the markets. The market says this, the market demands that. Is it this way one kind of market. One set of rules for the market. When in fact we can structure markets and a great many ways. In structure power within the market in a great many ways. That is in a sense what your book is all about. These two thoughts i think link, chicken is asian in the sentence i wrote pretty she could talk about that a bit. It is the single most important sentence in the book as we can do what we want. So thank you. And interestingly, it is something where you see left, right, moderate. Convalesce and a sense of inevitable ism. Im a progressive democrat very open democrat. But taxation alone as it got this note tax the elements of i it. Organize markets in all kinds of different ways. We lived in lawton different kinds of Market Structures. One might think about it, in your head you have a natural metaphor or a mechanical metaphor for the market . I think a lot of people have a somewhat natural metaphor. They chided treatment. As opposed to thinking about mike a car. What do these kinds of things it does these kind of things. You want the machine to do Something Else it will do Something Else. I think that is really importan important. I think its something we all understand. We all go to a Farmers Market think there are no rules here. The question is, what are the rules . And what kind values to those rules represents . So chicken is asian, one of the ways i wanted to, one area think people get the most certified glaze over as with big tech. I think we all see happening gig economy taking over more and more areas for work. Its inevitable and just a fact. The reason we start with talk about chicken is asian, chicken farming in particular zoning demystify the market. Two different kinds of structure and how chickens are sold even if you dont know any farmers and i do know some , im from a rural area, people dont feel intimidated talk about Market Structure when it comes to farming. So what weve seen in the chicken industry is reagans judges coming in and reinterpreting antitrust laws. This radical merger wave Work Companies that are key distributors like tyson, pilgrims, by a fall of their competitors are only three or four left. They start control a region and then by ancillary Services Like the eggs were not just distributors we also own the consultants to tell you how you have to treat your chickens. And so chicken farmers, theoretically they look free from a distance. They look like Small Businessmen and women. But when you actually talk to them they say if i want to get my chicken to market i have do whatever they say. I have to use their feet, user eggs, user counselors. But it doesnt stop there. They also degree does not talk to the neighbors, not to find out how much their neighbors are paid, the other chicken farmers. Agreed to get paid different amounts every month. And not know why theyre getting paid different amounts every month. And so they are stuck in a state of really incredible anger. A lot of chicken farmers i talked to, and writing about depression and suicide more than i expected. It is really important think about the human impacts of these economic structures. Chicken farmers feel paranoid. An overwhelming, debilitating anger at their distributors. Because they do not know when they have a bad month whether something they did, because the era tater spoke out politically against tyson . Or because the weather was better because tysons experiments in getting 50 chicken farmers one kind of seed and another in their subjects in the experiment they dont know about. And that experience that relationship of tysons to a chicken farmer, i argue, is a term i did not make up the great journalist Chris Leonard wrote about it. Its the other me industries that said we should chicken eyes. So beef and pork is starting the same thing. That is what is happening. The same thing at uber driver up with the driver to the platform for that is whats happening with amazon sellers. Amazon can make or break them. They need to be on amazon to sell night need to know why erwin being highly ranked or poorly ranked. The thing theyre releasing right now is a restaurant relationship to delivery apps. Especially during a pandemic. If you are a restaurant, if you are not on a delivery app its like a chicken farmer not been able to provide through tyson. The restaurant cannot stick five because its a significant percentage. That means can use its contractual power to say hey restaurant, give me all of your data and i would treat you in different ways and you dont hire being treated. And i wanted to really humanize what monopolization does. Because this is only possible when you only have a few players in the game. If a chicken farmer says i dont like tyson going to them and their five distributors, tyson cant do that anymore. If there are real competitors in the higher market, uber drivers cant negotiate and go elsewher elsewhere. Its really important to back to the basics of power. Im not telling you anything people in 1960 did not understand about antimonopoly pretty stressed that we forgot it. That we should think about decentralizing power. Only we decentralize power can workers and Small Business owners regain their relative power. There were already several good questions that i want to get to. I want to step back and take a look historically. I remember years ago i was talking with two other friends and all three of us thought of ourselves as progressive in one way or another. One of them was very pro market anti monopoly. Your tongue with the 1912 election. One of the great elections in our countrys history were where William Howard taft was a conservative. Woodrow wilson although racist and terrible in many ways was a progressive and other ways, he was a break up monopolies guy in response to concentration. At 6 of the vote was a democratic socialist. Teddy roosevelt was a new nationalist. But he really thought breaking up the monopolies might not be even though hes known as a trust buster, felt that regulating them in Public Interest was actually better. Its funny, we joke that our differences were displayed there because one friend wouldve voted for dabbs the other friend would have voted for wilson. And as i explained at the time i would have flirted with dabbs and voted for tr. The reason is i always wondered whether regulation is often more helpful than antimonopoly. You explicitly argue in the book that anti monopoly and strong regulation are not opposed to each other. They actually go handinhand. But we read this a little bit and then i promise weve got three good questions that we will get to after that. I think understanding this difference very think among progressives as well meaning progressives. As an argument about what is the best way to handle these problems. First of all it warms my heart to know youre having the 1912 debate. Because if i do nothing else, the goal is light the fire under this very urgent debate is that we have a crisis of concentrated power. Maybe there are a handful of people who will deny it. When you pull on it, recently did a poll with data for progress. Politicians are not talking about it. But the public cares about it. People really dont like concentrated power. Rather this is not a partisan issue is very interesting it doesnt line up meet neatly on partisan lines. Republicans and democrats at about the same level and between 50 and 60 want a president is going to do more. Wants to break up cable, once a take on big tech and big gag. A handful, less than 20 dont think so. In the 20 said i dont know. If the politicians are talking about it, people get it. There is incredible anger around Corporate Power. That means the debate should not be, is there a problem but what do we do about it . And within the anti monopoly tradition, there is a socialist strain of late 19th century and is a big anti monopolist and a representative of a more socialist strain and its representative of one of the most well known articulate early 20 who also goes back to book on dignity in our shared interest in dignity, really focused on economic and political structures interacted and how economic structures were important break of moccasin. I am probably a little socialist sprinkled in. And i do, i too often the debates and really shaken the shoulders of progressives in this book. Because i think progressives had not made anti monopoly essential part of their demands. Back the left is failed to understand the magnitude of the concentration problem. You may think you make Corporate Power but when is the last time you have been talking to your candidates and saying which antitrust position what are your new laws . When is the last time you occupied the ftc or protested because of a merger. But to answer your question, i think i am open to the arenas in which you have a big national project. I dont think those are off the table. I think the most successful big National Projects those of us the second half of fdrs administration are exactly the kind i hope biden looks at. Biden and harris look at. Which like the green you deal are national in scope. But decentralize in the way that it is played out. Was the government coming in and putting in electrical poles and supporting local coops. But there is comment Teddy Roosevelt part which im much more worried about them perhaps you are. Which is a vision. Teddy roosevelt, as you know many people do not, really, it was not the great trust buster. Fdr was much more impressive trust buster. Later on in his term as you point out. Not so much with arnold, i hope biden does not have to learn these lessons. You have the economy any decentralization. Its what you think about alliances between big business and government. Im much more concerned about business especially business that is currently constituted by the way with the current cultures and habit. Alliances with administration are really dangerous. They can come to eat the democratic mandates. At the private sector will not be governed by it. So i tend to think there are lots of different kinds of sector specific solutions. At the biggest threat is to allowed concentrated private power even if it is highly regulated. I look to the 2008 crash in our response to the 2008 crash, theres great regulation, and worked with doug frank and many other activist prayed we did not break up big banks. We chose regulation solely. And those big banks took the political power that they still had ground away to remove those regulations. So i think in terms of power both in terms of labor unions building up labor power and reducing concentrated private sector power, i dont think theyre incompatible. Less sunny and perhaps you are on the longterm possibility of alliances between business and government. I would not exactly characterize my position. What i saw says 800 Teddy Roosevelt trying to do and embryo what Franklin Roosevelt ultimately did if we get to that debate, we will have one i think. I think exactly. By the way, you do have a line in here, you have aligned to Business School students learn to invest in the areas where antitrust fails. I just want to shout out that wonderful section. Im looking for another quote that i wanted to share. Because i think it is so important. I have it in my notes basically we should make it harder for capital to organize and easier for people to organize. Which i think is a great concep concept. Lets go to the two of the questions here. And thank you for these. I will just read them. And the ultimate analysis, what power do we the people really have two force the issue of breaking up these companies but especially given the giant lobbies they have built in d. C. It seems to me the case. Se is the lesser of the two problems. Even if some of our readers might make it seem on obvious. The second question is, not unlike the first. Instead of pleading with the zuckerbergs of the world to do the right thing, how can we get our regulators to be more proactive, vigilant and engaged to do the jobs they were hired to do. Im going to give a very short answer. My short answer is, on the first question how do we force the issue of breaking up these monopolies, i think one this book is important as i think we are all on the cusp of a new antitrust era. I think you saw in the democratic primaries but you also have seen around the country people joining this issue in a way it has been totally ignored as they argued. I think now the question of a monopoly and the fact our laws may not be monopoly laws themselves may not be very well configured to the problems that we face are on a lot of peoples minds to give an example there is a hearing before the house were david sisley a congressman from rhode island lifted up the habit of many Tech Companies to copy, kill, and acquire which is something zephyr writes about in the book. So i think this is happening. Political power is force this issue in the past which is why were trying what history. Instead of pleading with the zuckerbergs of the world how do we get our regulators to be more proactive . What did they do . How did they deal with that . I am struggling with the problem of what you do about information technology. I read your book on a google ap app. I mean there is so much. We dont want censorship but we dont them to be censored eithe either. How do we go forward on this stuff . Only for really small questions, right . [laughter] so i just am so glad you framed it that way. We are really in the cost in the early middle. Middle early of the new antimonopoly movement. Theres all these different signs. The hearing was a barn burner. They came with receipts and really questions. It was a transformation from two years ago where senators wanted to take selfies with zuckerberg. Now they bring down asking hard questions. Getting them to admit things we did not know. I mean it was a real hearing its like i Want Congress to do more of this. You see, a real fight around 85 and the other uber fights in california. It is a fight but it is and engage fight that hasnt antimonopoly fights fights. The fight about economic power and how economic power is organized pretty see new jersey passing antimonopoly jobs it is statewide level. It is happening. New york just held a hearing on passing its own stronger version of the sherman act. There are all these incredible scenes of movement. In the 19th century there anti monopoly leagues all over the country. I dream of thinking of this is the beginning of a movement where i really critical Environmental Group is part of an antimonopoly group. Thats pushing these issues. Is on the costs but it is happening at the great time to join. The pressure points are agencies the ftc and congress, and your statehouses. And they all interact with each other. You know the state ag that he removed talking about, they are on the edge of their seats watching to see whats happening in washington said they could get information to bring their cases against amazon, google and their active investigations most states against the big Tech Companies that leads to lawmakers passing new laws. There is a dynamic interaction happening. One thing i think that is very important, one of the successes the terrible successes of the economists pushing the reagan vision of antitrust. As long as you have toothpaste theres no problem. They just start scaring people they got intimidated im not an economist. So im not to have a voice on this. If you are listening you probably have a view on taxation you dont have economist you probably review a labor law but you are in economist braden comes to anti labor what if i dont know the market share what if i dont understand. And of course understand the details is important is to call your centered and say hey theres a problem you figure how to solve it. I think theres a problem with concentrated power and you need to solve it. In antimonopoly movement will have people work on the details is a lot of solutions out there will engage citizens pretty dont need to be experts and others a concentration problem. Just some thoughts . No go ahead it is, i think it has been a disaster on the left that weve got used to begging Companies Instead of going to lawmakers. And that is not to say you should not Ask Companies to be better. Our habits of citizens have theres a company abuse go to the company first. And then maybe organize others and organize a boycott. In four the most part when you have monopolized industries is basically impossible to effectively boycott because people have nowhere to go. The facebook which is the question i have on this very issue is it better to treat them as Public Utilities or to bus them up as monopolies these are two possible things. Let me channel four the sake of argument is not really my view, but you hear it a lot inc. About the 17 years in the past i think i first talk to you technological innovation thats allowing as to do the very thing we are doug right now. Those are staggering and the 17 years a lot of critics in your position of a whole ton of problems with them. I dont really trust all the power but we know what you want to do can get in the way of innovation. I think i know what their is because ive read your book. Think its one of those things it does make people nervous when they want to go after big tech. They say but i like this machine im watching this i like this technology thats allowing us to do all sorts of things but you say back to them i love it. I love this technology. And thank you for the bold question. I would say actually dont have this in the book we want to talk about innovation as much for this other great writing on this comment tim lewis written a lot about innovation and antitrust. What im thinking of in the book argue that concentration itself can get in the way of innovatio innovation. Guest it does. But for the Microsoft Case it was just prior to our meeting, you would not have the incredible information last 15 or 20 years. But for hounding of ibm in the few years flowering of innovation in the tech sector. So there is a long history of innovation following big antitrust cases. I believe that when you have Small Businesses all subservient to amazon knowing they can get copied theres a lot less innovation. But as this question relates to your first question about regulated to linear break it up. Think the answer is of course, but i want to give it a very specific example. A lot of times talk about breaking up are not big not breaking up horizontally. But breaking up vertically. So, amazon you can be a place where sellers and buyers meats, great. And then in that form we should bring public utility regulation to bear to make sure there is open access pricing. Which you own a warehouse for shipping. And we naturalize amazon as if a course that go together. But if you talk to sellers they dont think so protect us all a few days ago there was over they are trying to make me use the film by amazon which is the housing and shipping but i dont want it. Basically amazon makes it that you get better treatment and more likely to be found if you use their other ancillary services. Amazon has its own private brand that competes against the sellers. But breaking up big tech is breaking up the thing with theres a huge value for us being together. I like all being together. Whether you have one or three comments on going to be a few big social media or big search or big sellers. But they shouldnt also be competing on their own platform platforms. The core thing that warren was talking about last year end her real break out break up big tec tech. So break up high function and then there are certain parts that should be regulated as a public utility. But ive got to tell you think how much easier if you could go to instagram. There is, bork john boycott cannot work in a monopoly when facebook owns instagram. You have no choice. So many thoughtful people out there want to share some of your thoughts. Lincoln both as we go forward. In this country done a stellar job or too good of a job. Mark defining a redefining capitalism and socialism including houtz taught in Business Schools. There is no surprise therefore we are confronted with false debate. Solutions and sites . Someone is kind to applaud our energetic ideas about all of this. However, i do wonder in light of Climate Change my Energy Secretary not to say anything was opponents on a host of issues feels like youre in a parallel universe. By every measure ive seen and that universal majority of people think power in the universe thank you for that. An argument about the u. S. Political system being a duopol duopoly, to be have more competition there, apparently i asked some question on their behalf. As just a very sweet thank you i appreciate that. As to both of us. Happily ensure that even if when scott turbid the momentum of antimonopoly that has built up continues and ultimately delivers on the potential. Let me jump in a couple quick things there. One on the duopoly, fattest for another night. We could have a long debate. Think the merit of a twoparty system as you know the coalition youre voting for on election day. The problem with multiparty systems is the coalitions are formed after the elections. And you have no control over that. Including the example with liberal democrats went into alliance with the conservatives in britain even though two thirds of the liberal voters would alliance with labor. At least in our system we know going in, i am however for instant one offs. Frank candidates one, two, three which would create some opening in the system. If you wanted to vote green but preferred the democrats a republican but republican or democrat you go one libertarian and then your second choice would win. That is a long conversation. I will leave it there. Youve got the newer book. She deserves the time cycle ahead. Guest a while their cellmate different issues here. Ill take a different version of the ultimate unpaired i believe and i think ej and i disagree on some things but agree on some others, of building a positive division of economy or people have economy. The actually feel like youre in your job you could leave it. Whether or not you choose to leave it you could lead it. Youre not subservient. That laying out the vision fighting like hell for the vision is what will allow democrats to have power. The point is not for democrats to have power but to have dignity. But delaying that out is absolutely essential. I would argue a failure to recognize big corporations in the growing inequality. But also despair and a sense of hopelessness and paranoia. Help elect donald trump. We can debate for all day long about what were the primary forces but its very clear he did very wellin parts of the country that had been hammered by economic change jobs overseas busted up jobs in unions and all those kind of things. I cleaned my hometown of massachusetts. Work hillary one but trump cut the democratic margin because people were fed up with the circumstance. I was the race paid her role in that victory. These discontents were part of a twopart i did want to talk about race. But something thats really important to me. And important in your book. One of the things i think happens is that we tend to think about antitrust, if we think about it at all but hopefully a think about it constantly now. One of three powered lands. The Power Dynamics not just what the policy is. But who are you giving power to. To look at that through a race neutral lens. It is not race neutral. One of the devastating impacts of the merger ways that we have been in for 40 years, is the total collapse of Small Businesses. Their former likely to own a Small Business and own a fortune 500 company. So the effects have been the destruction of just looking at black Business Owners for a Second Period the disruption of the black Insurance Companies the destruction of black newspaper owners. Destruction of black funeral homes. The funeral Home Industries totally monopolized right now. These are key centers of economic power. But as we also note economic power freedman look at Civil Rights Movement you look at the central role of independent, black Business Owners. In supporting unbelievably difficult, very dangerous political choices. Also merging towards not just concentrated power but concentrated white power. As part of the devastation of access to capital as well as community and power in black communities around the country. I think one of the reasons, theres a lot more that can be written about it. It is central not just in this chapter. But mention as you mentioned earlier so although there is a h century history and site monopolist also being some of the strongest advocates for racial equality, against the sort of credit monopolies in the coral drum horrible monopolization that destroyed the legal political powers of black americans. In the 20th century, there has been less engagement on monopoly and race. Think its really important are area. We are talking right now the really horrific landscaper with the landscape as many as 40 of black businesses make a under. Annette is in part because the pandemic parts also in part because we created an economy where there is merger after merger it leads to a handful of white owned businesses. Equally and supporting nonprofits that push voters prescient. All kind of race, economic power dimensions of the think are really important. I dont know, if you had any reaction to that section of the book a response about race and monopoly . Host i am struck that there have been times in our history when certain forms of populist or progressive action and politicians ended up being live for historical moments with segregation. But i thought that your analysis of where our power lies, i will tell you what i thought about when i read that, which is the fight over the Supreme Court again. Because what we are seeing here is an effort by conservatives to dominate a body by which there is no real appeal when the electorate itself is changing in fundamental ways. It will give a veto power to conservative forces over the democratic elected for a long time to come. I hate to bring it back to that but i think thats what it is about. By the way i would be remiss if i did not read the question or thank everyone for all of these questions. And for this thoughtful and kind comments. I just got to read this one. Run zephyr please run come to Washington State where your dad was from. I just wanted to pass that on. You get in touch with that guy. We are almost out of time. There is so much in this book that you are going to want to read. I just want to thank you for the book and really pushing this issue to the fore. The one i want to, feel remiss if i did not ask you about the impact of google and the like on journalism. And im not really thinking of the Washington Post which is sort of in this era. Im thinking especially for all of the great local papers in the country that are getting really hammered and are essential to local democracy that there collapse, mike collapse and colleague Mark Sullivan wrote a great little book about this. Just tell about that briefly. And they will close with a thank you to everybody. Guest will thank you. You and i both know Citizens United interacted with the collapse of local journalism in a horrific way. We both had the growth of Corporate Power. And then the reduction of the sort of key sinews of information. All i will say, this is a tease teaser, is again i think people think it is inevitable that if you have technology or if you have an internet than local journalism cannot survive. That is just not true. As ej pointed out, we have choices here. Its not that it is easy but we can actually understand that google and facebook are basically taking the same ad dollars that local papers used to rely on. And making money off of the great journalism that is being done locally. And we dont have to allow it. That is the bottom line. Dont naturalize it. You Noemi Klobuchar has been an incredible leader on this. Three years ago, she did a great about that organization i am a part of in d. C. On local journalism, on facebook and google. I actually think are combined understanding of the news industry and bag is made or an incredible leader this issue. Its interesting alliances we see sanders, klobuchar and worn coming from very different places. But all making anti monopoly like really central to who they are. Moral capitalism that you write about, in the book, and moral markets. The fact that we can have moral markets. They are all a lot of smaller newspaper proprietors were trying to figure out how to organize, cooperatives to try to preserve local journalism. So just want to remind everybody there is an election six weeks away. There is a lot to be done. Some of the questions reflected a bit of impatience with the political system. Which i think both of us share. On the other hand there is no alternative but to act. A philosopher once said pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will which i always liked very much. I just want to thank the bookstore, thank zephyr for having the chance to have this conversation writing a good boo book. Speech i want to thank pals for hosting this. My late grandmother lived nearby. And once year i would go visit her. She passed two years ago. It is been two years since i have been. Twenty best places in the world. Thank you for existing. And i wish i had the capacious notes of your intellect and empathy. It is amazing and really a privilege to get to have this conversation with you. Thank you i feel the same way its been a great, great joy. Thank you. And thank you in the rare book room there. For putting it together appreciate it so much. Yes it is quite here at the store, particularly in the rare book room. I hope in the future we are able to host both of you at the store again. I would love that thank you. Thank you to everyone for joining us for tonights event. It was a pleasure, fascinating conversation particularly in these political times. You can support both ej and zephyr by purchasing a copy of their book. Zephyrs new book is break them up, recovering the freedom from big agate, big tech and big money. In ejs new book is code red. Both are listed at pelz. Com. While youre there you can check out our other upcoming virtual events. With forward to seeing all of you act again on one of these events and hopefully into our stores soon. Thank you very much. Tonight on book tv in prime time, democratic senator jon tester of montana offers his thoughts on how democrats can reconnect with rural america. Former second Lady Lynne Cheney chronicles the four of the five for president s who all healed from the state of virginia. Cia director talks about his life and career. Donald trump junior talks mo he discusses little privilege in poet and playwright shares her thoughts on having an open dialogue on whiteness and privilege in america. That all begins at 7 00 p. M. Eastern, find more information on your Program Guide or online booktv. Org.