Campus color line College President s and the struggle for black freedom. Its out on september 29. If you havent yet preordered a copy of the book please consider grabbing one from book depot, we ship nationally, internationally, we have Curbside Pickup and we are actually open at a limited capacity. Just a heads up, weekends are busy so your best luck is swinging by monday or tuesday. Will share some guidelines in our chats and share some links to the book so you have easy access to purchases. Remember that your purchase goes to our supporting arts bookstore and staff. With that i would like to give a walkthrough of our platform and event after the introduction our guests for the night will be joining us up on the screen. We will be taking questions from the audience, please submit your questions in the q a photo below. If you are looking at the art below to the right you will see two bubbles that say q a thats where you should put them i would avoid the chat so we can keep track of all the questions and get to them. If you are watching via our Facebook Live stream make sure to submit questions in the comments field and we will be sure to grab it from there. I would like to give a warm welcome to our guests for the night. Eddie cole, phd associate professor of Higher Education and organizational change at ucla. And the author of aba campus scholar line. Published by Princeton University press. You can find him on twitter at eddie r. Cole. abshe is the author of remaking black power how black women transformed an era published by usc press and you can find her twitter at doctor actually farmer. With that, please help me welcome from home eddie r. Cole and actually farmer, thank you both for being here tonight. Hello, hello, can you hear me . Yes. All right pin. Welcome everyone, we are excited to have everybody here. Im going to go ahead and get right into our conversation because this is a wonderful but meaty book and there is so much to discuss. I want to make sure we get a chance to hit on all the wonderful dynamics that doctor cole has for us in this book. I like to ask people when they first start, how did you get into writing this book one with the idea come to you wasnt something that was marinating . Was it an aha moment moment you set up in the middle of the night and if you could tell us maybe one challenge and one tree to of writing it. Dr. Cole first off, everyone tuning in, thank you for joining me and im happy to be in this conversation with doctor farmer. Great question and thats the answer i continue to grapple with because an idea for a book comes from you from so many Different Directions so on a macro level i like to say that the idea actually started in my hometown ology alabama, smalltown west alabama greene county, total population of less than 400. This is where i grew up. It is something i notice in my home county growing up in a rural black south we had one Public High School in our entire county so its in the next town over and i remember this every day going to school we turned left on what hill avenue and my high school public, allblack to the right but if you made a left it was a private smaller majority white academy. At always been interested in how even in my own experience in my lifetime schools stood had the remnants of affiliation in the black Freedom Movement every day i was going to this routine, it wasnt bothering me, we werent having protests, nobody cared, frankly, it was just the norm if you will. It always stuck out in my mind, we would be in practice outside, we would hear one school over there, they could hear us, it was one of those things that always been thinking about educational leaders and the decisions they made in the past and how that shaped our present. That was sort of the in the back of my head even as a teenager but, trust me, as a teenager i wasnt thinking that deeply about it. Eventually writing a book on academic leaders. Over time continue to study more and more about my own experience, the black School Experience, i came to realize that more and more these educational leaders were just at the mercy of the state exclusively. They were actually actively involved in shaping the School Experience to racial policy practices, Community Organizing and so forth. Over time thats kind of where the idea started marinating and my attention turned completely to College Credits and i would say about a decade ago the occupy wall street movement. When we got to that point and saw College Campuses and looking how College Prisons were responding to that sort of activism, occupy wall street and then moving into 2015 with activism, black student activism at the university of missouri and really the rest of the nation you can go down the list. At that point i really started thinking seriously about how do College President s respond to these sort of events. I wanted to know how did it work historically. Knowing that this current moment at that time 2015 didnt come out of nowhere. Its one of those things where the idea just came at me from Different Directions watching things unfold in my own life as well as professional. Its one thing to have an idea and another thing to actually do it. I would say one unexpected challenge in studying College President s, particularly when you talk about the 1950s and 1960s its really restrictions in the archives. Its almost as if 50 to 60 years ago those College President s knew some of the decisions they were making would not be seen in favorable light. Having multidecade restrictions on some things, most often the longest being 50 years is one of those books i would say if i wanted to write it 10 years ago i wouldnt have been able to a lot of records were just being released in 2010, 1960 or even getting into 2015, 65, when it comes to College President s and chancellors. That was the challenge just trying to get my timing right and going back to some archives like, i will be back in a couple years. In some instances. That was an unexpected challenge when studying these College President s but a unique treat, just to wrap up and address the full question. A unique treat in writing this book was really thinking about the vulnerability seeing the human aspect of who some of these College President s were. One example is dan coyle the special assistant to the president Preston Robert geoghegan in the 60s. Just after the on the anniversary this week, just after the Baptist Church bombing in birmingham alabama where four black girls are killed as well as two additional children killed later that day. Just a violent horrific moment within American History and to see one of those senior administrators at princeton writing a letter to another one late at night, the details in the letters like i just cant sleep tonight knowing that what has happened nationally and then a week later ralph barnett, the segregation white supremacist governor of mississippi is coming to princeton to give a speech. You see this personal versus professional conflict happening and really get a chance to look at these College President s and see how human they are and how these decisions were quite complicated, that remains a treat. Writing this book i try to also do the human aspect justice to it. I like that you say that because one of the things that you end with is the conclusion that maybe we should be seeing College President s as elected officials in a way. That economy you are talking about needing to influence policy, needed to be the face of something but also somebody in private conflict and beliefs, thats a constant tug of war our elected officials also have to deal with. I thought was a little bit provocative. We live in a world we think of the university for better or worse the life of the mind but your book is telling us about the case. Why do you think that looking at College President s or speaking of them as elected officials is a useful frame for us. As people and them as the decisions they make. Its quite useful and reveals a couple things. It returns abreminds us of the the way it is for me at ucla compared to ut austin two different worlds. Ucla in los angeles not the state capital but austin this relationship with the legislature is just completely different. One thing it reveals the importance of stakeholders on some campuses right now we look every day in the news we say, whos really pushing this decision around major sports, Major College football, in a pandemic. That is very telling when you think of a College President as an elected official sort of navigating their position as a public figure, if you will. The other aspect you just mentioned and the question all the issues we are dealing with right now stem back to policy and social practice. Talking about campus relationships with Police Departments own Police Departments as well as city police. Student debt and the Racial Disparities without. Racist incidents on campus and we can go down the list of all these issues but when we think about those issues off the College Campus we look at where elected officials who take about the same issues on a College Campus we look toward the College President and chancellor ultimately we are looking toward people but we dont think about them in the same way as being able to shape and mold policy. I think thats incredibly important for us to remember because a university they are not just reactive to the social issues, they are actively involved in shaping a number of the issues, ultimately a lot of those decisions come across their desk. I love that because as i was reading the book i was thinking to myself as someone who works in the university i see the president as a subtotal of power. Having worked at public and private universities i certainly see that in the public context but im not sure ive always thought about it i thought that was a really provocative way of thinking about how power works and helping us map how power works on a physical terrain of a campus but also a city ecosystem. One of the things really great about the book is addictive spans of next. For those of you havent read it yet and you get to learn about president s of historically black colleges and universities, hbcu, you learn about predominantly white colleges like princeton, we learn about public universities, private universities, etc. I wondered if there were things that you found that it united these folks who acted like president s or things that he found that now i think of them as like a secret society or club where theyre all eating out together and planning things after reading the book in a way that i didnt think of before. Where did they find Common Ground or where they perhaps fight figuratively or literally . Something that united all these president s, regardless of the institution side, regardless of their region was i found that it takes a certain type of person to ascend to that level of academic leadership. Its one thing to say you want to be department share, its another to say all of these individuals i discuss in the book were very much committed to leaving their legacy, their leadership imprint on moving the University Forward and also addressing bigger societal issues as well. The thing that united them was the common challenge. The book covers roughly from the 1940s into the 1960s and when you look over that middle decades of the century they are all faced with the challenge of race question. Its hard to argue something that isnt as pressing or as complicated as that, regardless of the institution type. It becomes so fascinating that they have this shared issue but then the big differences becomes how do they address it or whats the importance of it. Thats where you see knockdown drag out fights, some compelling interactions throughout the book one example i give you is in the state of maryland in maryland being upper south, midatlantic, and has this multi regional identity happening. Its segregated but doesnt have a history of seceding from a union like some other southern states. Its got this uniqueness and one real fight that happens between curly byrd who is the president of the university of maryland and mark jenkins who is the president of Morgan State College in baltimore. This fight between the two really over segregation and who gets what funding and what goes where and should the university of maryland admit black students . If they do should academic support go toward the historical black college, you get the real difference is that when it comes down to it, we all agree that our shared challenge is racism, ultimately in society but we dont agree on what to do with it. That becomes one of the unique things that you look across the region state to state even when you look at the relationship between a luba foster the president of Tuskegee Institute in alabama, being an conversation with harlan hatch of the president of the university of michigan. You just dont think about tuskegee and michigan in partnership and communication with each other. It is one of the more fascinating things when you do a book like this as National Scope and you see correspondence on one end and you dont know how the conversation came out then you go to another institution edits the internal conversation with each other. Heres the back and forth. And the multiple conversations and how people say one thing. The people running these institutions are just as conflicted as the rest of us in society. Just out of curiosity, do you think today the College President still finds race and racism to be the defining thing they have to deal with that is uniting them across the world . Does that really changed or im just thinking like i can imagine some of these conversations about desegregating the university of mississippi i understand we are not desegregating the same way but the racist incidents and stuff helping is quite similar and princeton is in the news. I would say yes, privately. I would say among themselves in conversation, i would love to hear i would be fascinated to hear what conversations they have but i would say privately there is a shared concern to racial applications of a number of decisions that are happening right now. I think about the annual surveys of College President s where they have a chance to respond to race or racism a prominent issue on your campus and theres always some ridiculously high number, like 80 to 85 percent that say no. But if you were to ask students across the nation the same thing, maybe 80 to 85 percent would say yes. So how are these two groups president s and students seeing things differently . I would venture a historical record of what the archives of study across the nation tell us is that any indication that behind closed doors these president s are very concerned about race particularly as we go into this heightened racial moment in the selection this fall. Dr. Farmer its interesting to see them. Along those lines, one of the things that struck me about the book is that because if you view College President s at the center, and see them as these elected officials of politicians that means you have to make deals and perhaps build coalitions of people that are somewhat unlikely. There are moments that i was like, wow, that i didnt see that College President being on board with this group, making a deal with this particular segment of the university or the surrounding area. And wondering if you might be able to tell us an example of how College President s have had to make bedfellows in order to get deals done or move initiatives forward. So many examples in the book but two in particular stand out to me, the university of california system even if you are not familiar at all but just know that as a really Large University with multiple campuses. That makes the system. We talk about thousands of students, theres a president head of the system and each campus has a chancellor. That alone sounds complicated. Imagine how complicated it was when they were building the system out and the 50s into the 1960s. One particular relationship that i did not see unfolding or attention if you will that university of california has the center rejects but california is so large, i read about this in the book. It has its own some regional loyalties within the state. If you are in Northern California in the bay area Southern California. As ucla did Franklin Murphy important figure and ucla he actually had some hesitance in taking the chancellor job at ucla because for the first time he will be reporting to a system president instead of the director to a board of trustees. Hes kind of hesitant about taking the position but what you see is murphy at ucla performs these very unique relationships a number of very powerful Southern California influencers. People who run, the l. A. Times, talking about lockheed and coming out of postworld war ii. He makes a unique aball of a sudden a significant portion of the aborted regions are fans of ucla and willing to go along with everything that Franklin Murphy says as opposed to looking back up north to the berkeley and saying heres how we will vote on the particular issue. You just dont necessarily expect that to unfold. Another example just to go back to Princeton University in the 1960s is reverend adie tyson, black pastor of an ame church which is significant, right there and princeton. Actually gets on the same team as allen dulles, the trustee at princeton, youve heard of Dulles Airport in dc, that same dulles family, you also talk about John D Rockefeller the third. Multibillionaire philanthropist, also owned a princeton, board of trustees in 1963 they all come together to agree that the university should address some of the racial issues both on campus and in the preston township. You just dont expect a pastor of an ame church to be on board with the same things of these national or International Figures on the preston board of trustees. As legal scholar derek bell talks about becomes the perfect example of that to where everybody all of a sudden sees that from a global perspective the u. S. Reputation and it struggles with the race as historians for years have discussed really gives the knowledge to say, we need to start at least put forth the image that we are doing a lot more to address racial inequities and racism in america. Talk about some strange relationships that emerge. I always say to college persians, if you cannot study a historical record, there is no campus decision where there isnt a little piece of information that goes to that office in those archives. That makes you wonder like what kind of deals are being made as we speak. One of the things also as you go through this and name pastors and regions and heads of companies is that this seems to be like a very male centered story. As a historian of particularly black women it leaves me wondering how did women factor into this and how should we understand them in this . Did they influence . Absolutely. I think thats one of the most critical aspects of the book that i wanted to focus on, if i had to one sentence summary the book abwere talking about the black Freedom Movement, as you know from your work for years now women play so many significant roles. I give a formal example an informal example. From an informal standpoint i talk about Martin Jenkins i mentioned him again abwhat Moran Jenkins does is the president of a public hbcu he knows he has to play a bit of a game engaging in white leadership in the state and throughout the south but whats significant is so Many Networks he taps into. You want to talk about the black fraternity and black sorority network or black women civic groups, mark jenkins engages these groups on so many levels that i discuss in the book that its clear that black women are so significant to the overall efforts hes trying to support as a president navigating this complicated terrain. Women, particularly black women, Martin Jenkins becomes president in 1948 and often times we talk about the lunch counter sit ins in greensboro in 1960 but similar demonstrations are unfolding in baltimore in 1948 led by two black women specifically. Also lily jackson who is a longtime president of the baltimore naacp. All of this through 1940s and 1950s and Martin Jenkins arrives as this is happening and is in constant communication with these people. In fact, he talks about lily jenkins, giving her the Honorary Degree at a Commencement Ceremony at morgan state, talking about all the things shes done with the nation. So if you think about Martin Jenkins has a formal title president but hes taking his cue so often from these black women who are in the streets organizing so many different organizations and so forth and then also his wife Elizabeth Jenkins being the member of apple account for Alpha Sorority and the connections there throughout the east coast and the nation at that point. Martin jenkins also speaks at a number of fraternity and Sorority National conventions because hes an academic, hes a scholar as well training phd out of Northwestern University and publishers a ridiculous amount even by todays standards so if you were to look at the title and see the book and say no to the timeframe you might think, this is a book about men but in reality when you really read it, you see the many ways that women continue to shape what these people are deciding. I also have to mention abwell a player becomes the first black woman president of a Fouryear College in america by far she is the president of the book when it comes to the citizens that started in 1960 and really being active in supporting the student activists to be engaged from stepping back and all of her privileges as a College President in solidarity with the students. You can go from chapter to chapter and its not just limited to the black colleges either. The first sentence in a chapter about how discrimination in america has this quote the octopus in the south has tentacles in the north. That quote is from velma hill, black woman activist from core speaking at the university of chicago. Dr. Farmer i love that you pointed out abbecause most people talk about segue of 1960 you get that iconic picture whether or not you can really succeed college wives and keep active and how your president felt about something. I have a couple questions because i could chat about this forever but we abdo you have something . I was about to say, lets keep going i was about to ask you to elaborate more on the organizing, particularly within colleges and universities but your overall connect that to the overall organizing of women especially discussing your book remaking black power. Dr. Farmer im gonna hold onto that and then i will come back to that. Jessica asks, where they are winning any abhow did that differ from other black hbcu . A few. I dont focus as much on them, adam vito at Temple College in jackson mississippi was one. He was the last white president , particularly pride hbcu and his presidency went into the early to bed 1960s. For the most part this connectedness among the black College President , there is some difference in how they navigate the terrain, mostly between private and Public Institutions. Particularly upper south and deep south if you will. I dont discuss as much differences between white leadership of black colleges and black leadership of black colleges. Even though at morgan state, which we know now as the public hbcu will initially was a private institution because the state of maryland was the last of the state to actually provide funding and support public higher ed option for black residents in the state of maryland. Maryland, something you would assume is georgia or alabama or South Carolina think of the state of maryland actually lasted to that morgan state was purchased by the state and converted to a Public Institution in the process. While morgan state was private, i discussed this in the book, and had a long time white president John O Spencer which ultimately headlined from the Baltimore Afroamerican speaks to the title of the book that headlined talks about president spencer and his the white man at Morgan College at the time holding the campus color line. In the sense that the color line there were competent black contractors looking to do improvements and build on a campus but also time those contracts went to White Companies instead. Thats one example of how you can have a black college but if its run by white individuals they still adhere to the usual paternalistic white supremacist ideas black students and black intellectual ability, good question. If you have more questions take them in the chat and we will get to them. I will go back to the question of student activism because i think its an important one. One of the best interventions of your book is that most of us do look at the black movement as going students going up. Very few people look at what the birdseye view mustve looked like looking down. One of the things that the College Campuses in my work and a lot of the folks work. Only is this a place where you might find leaders whether that be the black society of the citizens etc. But also often a place you see them writing a lot about racism and their form of intellectual precaution. I think its important to emphasize that. I wonder if you might tell us a little bit about how focusing on College President s helps to see different parts of student activism in that way. Really is like a topdown approach in some ways and bottom up in others. Thats a great question. Its been so eyeopening. In writing a book like this obviously im gauging what the literature for years on writing about black student activism and Higher Education. I always like to say, College President s have made a cameo frequently through abwe know the College Prison is going to be mentioned, almost in any account of student activism. In fact, thats also in fiction writing too i think about ellison, the doctor bledsoe character. Just this very description this idea who the College Prison is at a black college particularly. College prisons have always made these abCollege President s have always made these cameos typically in response to the issue bubbling up to a certain level. I just really became more and more curious over time in saying whats the opposite perspective before the issue becomes a headline. Becomes on radio or what it might be. What we learned from College President s perspective is that often times they are quite aware of the issue before the Public Statement and thats both today we know but also historically in that when they are aware of the issues at hand, they really can save us a lot of time where we pick up the conversation. As opposed to waiting until there is enough Media Attention or student pressure or a sit in in the prisons office. Often time these things dont come out of the blue although the public issue statement may say much, might say as much. In that sense we really learned a lot about how early rumblings about certain issues really come through the president s office and often times i would say years in advance it might be an academic generation as i like to say, ahead of time. Before one group of students finally is fed up. Ultimately what this book i think about it always reminds me of the importance of we have formal institutional history, this broad overview of student protests and student unrest and we have the informal institutional histories with subgroups where Everybody Knows a campus reputation before they get there what to do and what not to do, so often times those same types of informal histories are also whispered among administrators as well. Dr. Farmer i didnt even think about that, we always kind of you have these private chats about should you work at a place, what are the students like at a place but you dont think about as much how the administration is also doing that perhaps the faculty as well or other administrators in that sense. Folks, if you have other questions, feel free to put in the chat or facebook i think you can put them in the comment in the book and people will send them our people books will send them our way. One of the other things i was thinking about in reading this book there is a setting that says you never know what world your book is born into. Water world your book is coming out of by virtue of the fact that we are having this conversation like this versus being together in austin texas or somewhere else. I just kind of wonder, how would you say the university as you know what has changed in the time from when you started writing the book until now when the book is being born into . This book the world i thought it would be born into six or seven months ago is drastically different. We are talking about the Global Pandemic with all of its racial tensions. Talking about this time a year book is almost a given that tailgating the traditions so much even the fact that to be clear, people have always raised concerns about campus policing. Particularly toward black students. But in general now theres more questions. Just the world i envisioned is what we being born into would likely have a few campus racial incidents and we be talking about College Prisons and how they respond to it. But the timing and the conversation now is spot on to really how things change with the book in general. I started out thinking like how to president s respond in doing the research i got to this point and was like, they were far more proactive than i couldve imagined and shaping policies and practices both formal and informal. So it became one of those things where right now we are in a moment to where we are looking for College President s to completely transform these institutions and not just another Public Statement, not just another task force or committee or but actual money and policies and practices to actually change and that has been a drastic difference in just the last six or seven months. Talk about a time to have a history of College President s and racial policy come out and then have this moment where everything is virtual and the implications of being virtual and who has access to the internet at home and who doesnt, thats as much of a racial issue as it is a technology issue. What a time to have this book. And then abyou have to do everything, it is a difficult time to try to lead in this way. We have another question, do you think that the power of College President s has been usurped by Athletic Leadership given the Financial Investment in College Course and can i add to this, i dont know if you saw the tweet on twitter i think it was like this stating that lsu had 80 million gone and most people were like oh i see as the players are worth 80 million. And not getting paid. I digress but the point simply here is our our College President s really just serving the interest of Athletic Leadership at this point because it such a multimillion dollar business. Im torn on that because its hard to make a broad sweeping statement about College President s regarding Athletic Leadership because the majority of conferences arent playing football, lets be clear about that. There is a few less than 10 i think real big moneymaking division i Football Division that are playing right now. I want to be mindful in that a number of majority College President s made a decision thats very clearly in the best interest of student athletes, not just Football Players and texas is one of those places that also has fans even though fewer but they are letting people into this statement. So thats one thing, just to contextualize and say yes but no but then theres another part of it, these big institutions i got my doctorate at indiana which is big ten and for the past five weeks at one point i felt like yeah thats a good decision use medical professionals and you decided not to play and then 23 days ago we said were gunplay after all. There is that part. But is is it Athletic Leadership . I dont know. I dont know if thats what pushing College President s but i can bet if history in the book is any indication i could bet there is been a lot of elected officials to president relation conversations. Some influential donors having some conversation. We see the president of the United States wants to tweet about football right now. I think there are a lot of influences particularly knowing that the big ten is 14 universities and 13 are statesupported even though state funding is very very small for these institutions they still have to uphold the amateur being responsive to the state. I wish i knew more about the actual vote. Thats the thing, this is a history of somebody who has to write 15 years from now. Weve talked a lot about how people write the history of cobit and vaccines but these decisions made on behalf of schools k12 and college would be a whole another set of educational history waiting to come. Another question is, what would you like to see more of from these campus leaderships or leaders, i think that means in this particular moment how would you like to see some of these College President s step up . Dr. Cole had an oped in the New York Times early july one thing i argue is, its nice to make symbolic changes. I think thats gonna be the easiest thing we are going to see right now particularly in this National Social racial moment. You, see names revisit, confederate monuments revisit. Were to see those headlines and thats important, those are long overdue decisions, perfectly fine. But theres got to be the operational changes. Thats really what id like to see College President s move forward with with doing. I always say, its really a blatant conflict if you say everyone almost everyone released a statement post george floyd, breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, you see institutions private public, release or Public Statement condemning racism, okay, great, even ucla chancellor released a statement after john lewis passed. You see College President s making these Public Statements saying things that they wouldnt even say five years ago now they are condemning it. John lewis just past who ultimately his whole professional life is committed to Voting Rights and then at the same time you have an institution of Higher Education like the university of georgia as significant as it is to the state of georgia with all the voting issues i would like to see more operational changes are someone who teaches black history on a predominately white campus despite the faculty and the staff no one is obligated to do that but it speaks for the Public Institutions we need to think about you have to think about what kind of climate even if you let folks abwhen people you wouldnt allow outward manifestations that tell people are not welcome there. I would also love to see curriculum changes. A big part of this issue is people dont understand how much the racial geography that helps disconnect not so far to the past and understand very much that these things are still very much a part of our lives. I just wanted to leave us maybe perhaps with a big ticket question, what current debates or decisions are word somebody now understand better after having read your book iraqi if we are looking at headlines seeing department of education decisions, the president tweeting, what have you, what a couple big things that once people read this book they would say, i get it now. Dr. Cole a couple things come to mind immediately. Department of education the president tweets about patriotism, Something Like that. Education. American history abthe commission of 1776. Its in a direct rebuttal to the 1619 project in New York Times. With Something Like that, i saw that and i saw the headlines a week or so ago about removing the terms Critical Race Theory and White Supremacy from federal government training. When you think about those headlines, that screams anticommunist ab1950s, its the antiintellectual movement, rearing back up again because it never went away but we are really picking up steam going into the selection and the sort of pores on this idea of educators and academia and k12 and corrupting the mind of pure american citizens. Thats one issue, if you read the book you get much better clarity on that because College President s had to respond to that in this same effort in the 50s and 60s and it was a relevant question to the howell because antiintellectualism in this nationalism and riza patriots, that is a direct link to what you are fighting for especially in changing the curriculum. Talk about ethnic studies emerges on the same moment historically. So you read the book you get much better clarity on that but another headline thats worthwhile considering is affirmative action. All the federal court cases challenging affirmative action practices, eat at ut austin i met ucla, a oh my goodness, yes. Dr. Cole historically you read about it affirmative action this is really one of the ending points to the book is that when we think about affirmative action today we are limited almost exclusively to thinking about how race is considered in college admissions. You walked on the street and somebody says affirmative action and Higher Education you say race and admissions. Historically that wasnt at. Thats what i discuss in the book that the Kennedy Administration 63 actually turns to academic leaders because hes had such a hard time pushing forward and reaches out to college prisms and says help me, help us, help your nation address the prominent racial issues in america and that becomes the initial affirmative action program. All these president s go to cambridge and try to work out plans were nationally systemwide then race conscious admissions the majority of the other programs are geared toward historically black colleges but you see the tension between you cant see affirmative action headline today intellectual dismantled a aand not see the connections to what im discussing in the book. This leads to a question after youve done all the research if someone said tomorrow we know it would make you president of the college would you take on the job knowing now the history of it and seeing deep down the details and the politicking to take place. Thats a question i get asked often and my answer is consistently no. I would turn that down. In the 50s it was seemingly an impossible job imagine that position today similarly impossible. Knowing what i know historically and reading the private correspondence to that many president s i went to far more institutions and i discussed in the book and research traveling nearly 30 colleges across the country and seeing the consistent story the consistent challenge i have any respect for the influence and the power that comes with college presidency. I like ideas to committed to investigating things to fully committed to being an elected official. I feel you. If you have any last questions, things to put in the chat. Its funny you say that you have more respect. I think as a workers in the university you are somewhat positioned in the adversarial relationship with the power structure but i did find myself understanding the position with more depth and finding myself being a little bit more immediate toward that position and then perhaps when i started the book. Because you realize how difficult in the intricacies and how much you really dont see. I would never do it either. I do think it takes a special kind of person to do it and just like you dont know when a book is born into you dont know what kind of work youll see in the presidency. That can really shape what you thought you were going to do and how you have to respond. I think about historic, Jonathan Holly abyou cant predict this moment. Its insane. Is there any parting words or anything i didnt touch on that you want to make sure our audience knows before we close out for the night . Think about racial policies and practices. The role of the president s play in that. Its completely fair game to have that conversation with academic administrators and hold them accountable for the conversations they are privy to. Back by far is in different way to reorient our mind to thinking about the college presidency. Just like any federal commission, tends to turn toward us as academics or others. College and University Still have this reputation being held up as displaced we can solve the nations problems often times College President s get called first because they lead the institutions expect to solve the nations problems. There involved in those conversations certainly a powerful voice in the room i think is worthwhile thinking of them. My other thought is of course grab your book dr. Farmer, just phenomenal work and i appreciate you taking time to chat with me. I love how decisions get made and history shapes the world i very much know and inhabit. I think our friends from ab will come on and share a few final words with us. Before i i want to thank everybody for joining us tonight. Spending your friday night with us in the midst of the pandemic. Hope that you will grab this really phenomenal book soon. Thank you both so much for being here tonight, for sharing your work with us. Everyone watching from home for sharing your questions. This is a friendly reminder to please grab a copy of the book, it comes out september 29. You can preorder a copy from book depot. I know you cant immediately hold your copy after this is done but preorders are really important to books and really important to bookstores and authors. Please do grab the link in the chat and thank you all for coming here. Thank you. On our Author Interview program after words democratic senator chris murphy from connecticut was interviewed on counsel on ab about his new book the violence inside us. In this portion of the program senator murphy explains why america became a more violent country than others around the world. We are clearly an outlier when it comes to the homicide rate. The book talks about the fact that thats not always been the case in the United States. For much of americas early history, we were not a global outlier, it wasnt until the middle 1800s in which americas homicide rate started to diverge from the rest of the world. And never came back to the ground. We been a global outlier now for 150 years. There are two things that explain why those numbers started to separate. The first is the expansion of slavery in the United States the invention of the cotton jam we brought more slaves in the United States to use more violence as a mechanism to Order Society and america very early on became an exercise to the use of violence. It was just a normal mechanism to organize our economy and half of the nation and it was also used in high numbers in the north for the same reason for similar reasons. Violence just became normalized. The second thing that happens in the middle 1800s as we have sort of the first wave of new immigrants to the United States. Its these new immigrants fighting for economic space that also begins to expand the rates of violence. There is really a third thing that happens in the middle 1800s thats the invention of the self repeating handgun, a handgun that could be used without reloading every single time and be concealed in your pocket. The United States didnt have any history of gun regulation so the guns started quickly, spread throughout the United States, they were romanticized by the people selling them. The greater ability to conceal weapons. The entrance of new migrant groups fighting for economic space and normalization of violence that came out of americas expansion of slave population all starts to move the rates of violence and gun violence and a dramatic catholic direction america essentially never recovered from proxy can watch the rest of our program on tv. Org. abbooktv. Org. Booktv in primetime starts now. First up, democratic senator jon tester of montana offers his thoughts on how democrats can reconnect with rural america. Then former second Lady Lynn Cheney chronicles the leadership of four of the five first president who all hailed from the state of virginia. Event. If you are