Visiting special agent with the fbi. In this unit highprofile before during and after the 911 attacks in recent years, investigative skills to the private sector. And do of this group. In the founder of the center. It in a specialty is Global Security affairs. Everything from culture to state actors to nonstate actors and i will try to explore as much about todays we can. One thing that i want to point out that each day published this bookings which is something we should really actually you should read everyday. Its a wonderful deep dive into a timely issue goes to the heart of what we should be thinking about even if it is not in the headlines. Anything from white supremacist them to what is happening with al qaeda and ice is now to the geopolitics of nationstate and regional powers. I encourage you to read everyday. I also encourage you to read morning briefs which is a fine Group Sponsored and National Security producers which is in the 14 year. And bringing to the news everyday about what you should be thinking about with National Security and a variety of dimensions. So thank you for joining me today welcome. Ali soufan thank you. It. Karen please ali soufan. Karen i want to start by talking about the book then we will move onto other things. And as you know from your indication, you can buy this online by pushing the button to buy it. If you have any questions along the way, you can chat and eventually i will get to them. I want to go to the title of the book, when it first came out in 2011, it was, subtitled the inside story of 911 and the war against al qaeda. And now, its torture. And i say that because so much of what is been rejected and classified had to do with torture, your involvement in interviews with al qaeda and others and i want to get to derailing the war on terror before we get to what is actually different about this edition of the book. So lets talk a little bit about how this war and terror was derailed and how this book deals that. Ali soufan whatever the book, neck in 2011. This was supposed to be about about recounting my own personal serving the nation and the war on terrorism. Then the book went to being a publication that can spark a conversation. Based on the facts. Based on reality in all of the successes that we have had after 911. And actually the successes in the previous years but also the things that we had in our response to 911. Which is the iraq war in 2003 for torture is another example. So when i submitted the book to the fbi for review. And anyone can expect a process. But it was a productive process and they asked me to change a couple of things which did not create any problems for me because these things were kind of within the boundaries of any prepublication review. Unfortunately after they did the review, they send it to the agencies. And initially the agencies reviewed the good and then suddenly started to get crazy as you probably see from the first one. It being redacted in anything that has to do with actually happen that in the rooms against terrorist suspects, how we get information, what really trained letter on, all of these things work redacted. So again, torture did not work. This is not how you get information regarding it. I cant state how did we get the information. How did they get this information. [inaudible]. In amongst everything that has to do with the alleged efficacy of the Technique Program. Was redacted. Everything that was describing the process of the distortion. So if you are fourth torture. You can do anything you want and youre able to publish it. In the review board did not. So if you have a problem and what happened if you are telling the truth about what took place in these interrogation rooms, it was redacted. So after several years of fighting and after the. [inaudible]. They challenged the reduction of the black banners draft. The government asked if they can do another review of the book. In this time, they were very fair. For the most part, everything that redacted has been unredacted targeted and now people can read exactly what happened. So the very First Edition of the book the black banners declassified, one about the war on terrorism in jail, everything that happened from the date in the United States until the death in may. So now, the same book, but there is some inch information that is been classified on the National Security grounds of the first time, that makes it another book. It did not exist. In most of this has to do with the tradition Technique Program with torture and when you read it and when you see it, youll see how that program was devastating to the interest in devastating to all of the success or the lack there of in the war on terror. So also with the cia and the leadership. For taking this amazing step of institutional transparency. In d classifying the black banners so the people now can read the truth. Because what i said in this book back in 2001, my firsthand experience. I was in the interrogation rooms that i saw what was happening. And in any instances, i got the information from someone or i personally got it. When you look into this new say, okay, your account and be classified National Security, what you actually are admitting is the truth. Because you dont classify lights. If i was lying, in 2011. No, i would just say he was lying. So now, ironically, that helped the truth in the long run. Now when people read what happened there, and what happened with different people. [inaudible]. Partyware is now the truth. So any people who through all of the successes and mated as the result of these techniques. And that is why the decision to change the subtitle of the book to focus on the traditions in the torture, this is the first time we will read exactly what happened in interrogation rooms. We will have a front seat to the interrogator geisha room into the black lives. Karen so is a rare occurrence for something to be classified by former official in the way yours has been declassified. Probably unprecedented in your particular case and in your different circumstances. When you think they got declassified. Do you think it had anything to do with reports. Or anything to do with the cia trying to send a different message. How do you account for this. Ali soufan i think the first of all, i am grateful. For the law clinic. I am grateful for all the people who helped me with david kelly, my attorney who was with me from day one. Finding for this for the detoxification. But i believe that a lot of people wrongfully and you and i talked about this, believe that the torture program was a program. I dont believe it and we had these discussions unite, did before. The torture program, even the Inspector General defined it as a different kind of program, unit with the cia. [inaudible]. A lot of people in the cia, a lot of the officers were not under cdc. You will see it now in the book were against this program more than i was. So that is why so any people went and complained to the Inspector General and the Inspector General to an investigation. And then in his infinite intent investigation, cannot find anything that was destructive it to the element, that is number one and number two, he said that the Interrogation Program worked. And then its a subjective matter, very difficult and we dont think there is anything. So the cdc program defined. In the second mistake that a lot of people made, fbi versus cia and unplug now the both have been unredacted. Because it shows that it was not the fbi versus cia. It was washington hiring a contractor to oversee the program. Because then basically the cdc at the time. And then how now we look at everything that happened and we find out what i was talking about in 2002. And in 2011, i run it and that it was redacted for now you can read that it was happened for example, we could not prosecute any of those people for anything even though they have american blood on their hands. Because of what they went through at that site. I believe theres a lot of new people in the cia. And in the Intelligence Community and a lot of new people in the government that believe that the cia Inspector General can create it. The believe these things in the book. They believe they came up with. Thus people are built. Not involved in all of the problems of the past. They didnt make these decisions in the past. Those people lofgren as i think a lot of people wanted to turn the page and wanted to put everything out. So much of the sector. So theres a transparency here that we did not see in the last two decades the minute. That is why the timing of the release of this book is extremely important. We face today is a political culture based on alternative facts and talking points and on conspiracy theories but this did not start with trump. This is been going on in our political culture for a long time as we seek the trump is just a step to towards, a logical step. To what is happened. What of these issues. [inaudible]. If you believe in, mostly your republican if you dont, then youre mostly probably democrat. And everything looks in this what President Trump at the time candidate trump was saying that i want to bring back the borders. It was something that can bring the cheers of the crowd. But now, you will have the opportunity to save the facts behind this. Dissing the truth behind the disinformation about the efficacy of the interrogation system. And you will see how that these Different Levels operationally and strategically totally failed hurt our National Security interest. Karen we often hear the phrase, torture doesnt work right. It and these dont work or didnt work. Ive always been curious, what is actually the main. Can mean so any different things. Can be that you dont get the information. Thank mean all of them. Dont get the information at all. It means that you get that information. It means a variety of things we talked about institutionally down the road like not being able to try people. Even when you say eit student work. Help us abou tell us about whatu are talking about. Ali soufan you are right. It means lot of things but im going to talk about it from a different point. Every country that torture does not a stable country. I want to go back and show you that the terrorism that came out of the egyptian jail. Im not going to go down that path. Lets talk about the United States. We are a nation, we have prosecutions and amendments. Two prohibit this kind of treatment. So we took an oath to protect the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. And these d constitutional protections have no, humane treatment. All of these kind of things that we are talking about. But also the cornerstone of International Policy and who we are as a nation, the believes in freedom and democracy, a ronald ragan said, shining sea on the hill. We advocate for the human rights, we have a review that goes from the state departments, we call the enemies. [inaudible]. And allies who practice sleep deprivation. These are taken from the 2002 departments to the court about ally countries in the world. [inaudible]. When we do it ourselves. So if you have significant contradiction, between the lost, between who we are as a nation, between what we say publicly and then between art strategies. When these things do not go handinhand together. If you know yourself and you know your enemy. Imagine if you forget about yourself and who you are, you have no clue about the enemy. Youre going to fail. Thats why members of al qaeda on the evil 911, because the United States trillions of dollars just to become 40000 members today. And now all across, somalia and other places. You name it. It they can modify canada, denounced the work, thats longer than world war ii, not a war altogether. And guess what. We are in such a dangerous situation today. And that is because a lot of these things. Because of strategic perspective. And our strategy. We were not seen together. Thats number one. The biggest disaster and everybody agreed upon this, President Trump, the biggest disaster is in 2003. We went to iraq, we invaded the country, hundreds and thousands of people are dead. Trillions of daughter and 10 have been wasted. Al qaeda was dying. And ultimately loss of life. They wanted evidence at the time this non and al qaeda were working together. Everybody in the cia and the fbi who knew them, we knew that they were not working together. That was not good enough. Right. So they took advantage and they worked with al qaeda. They tortured him. And then they said yes, there working together. [inaudible]. So we sit with these information to the National Security council. And secretary powell holiness volatiles the tooth. In talking about how al qaeda and saddam are working together to develop it was devastating. [inaudible]. And one more thing. We found out everything overlapped. We knew it was light. Even colin powell knew it was life. It did not make sense. And said to him, why did you like. Just when they were torturing me, you would say anything. Theres a big difference between compliance and cooperation. Compliance is what i want to hear. If they want to hear they are working together fine. Will torture a guide will get that information. And thats exactly what happened. It was very difficult for us to go to the white house and say, well, we torture them to get that information. So now, cooperation is the truth. So there is a difference between compliance and cooperation. We do not have unlimited resources to chase people around the world. It because of the false information they were getting. We wanted to stop it. What you seen this book how we were getting the facts. And in some of the threats for example about the Brooklyn Bridge for example. They were watching tv, and they showed a guy stepping over the bridge and they started to joke, how any will die if we blow up bridge. And then suddenly, within 24 hours and cnn, but we had this info. Oh no al qaeda blew up the Brooklyn Bridge. If theres a big gap between what we reported in what had been sold to the American Public at the time. So i think theres a big difference in compliance and cooperation. So this is an operation perspective. There are other elements that we do all the time is basically justice towards the end. Liberty justice, intelligence justice or ego justice. Panel we have today are people who have blood in their hands. We have a mastermind who admits more than 3000 americans and we cannot prosecute him even in a court. Because of ones did through this program. In the Inspector General warned them about that. And all of these things were unfolding back in 2002. But towards the end, you might have a lot of people continuing this. You have to think long term. Because after all, is us in the beginning, we are eight americans. We have law. It. Karen yes so, lets talk a little bit about the military commissions now torture has affected them. There is a disconnect. Want to try them. Its hard to get the information buried and all of these things complicate a legal process. Do you think though ever be charged. Spee tipped i dont know. I think it will be a difficult situation. I seriously think that some of these guys went through block sites and a lot of the information became tainted. Now how do you proceed with prosecuting someone when youre trying to classify the time. That that you work in this time. , that is the complexity and why up to 911, we still cannot prosecute some of these people. Despite looking at these profiles itself. Believe me, i know. We help the prosecution and llama and suddenly they have more evidence. We are able to find another judge to convict them and then to sentence him to death. So we know what we have internationally. But unfortunately, they will not allowed to talk to them. Because of the torture program. And were not aware of any of the information has came from the harsh treatment. Now people want to include these satyrs. [inaudible]. They still want justice. Karen one of the questions from our audience, somebody who worked in the middle east for more than five years and heard frequently how damaging the United States, do think we have buried that episode and if not what we need to do to various buried. Ali soufan think what is great about the United States that we eventually did the right thing. I think the wall world is seen these things happening. They think people like john mccain standing of god bless his soul. And support somebody like him. And they are saying men and women in the cia and fbi going to the Inspector General and complaining about what they had to do rc in the sites. Theyre saying what happened with the black matters now. How after nine years and has been unredacted and they can know the truth about the program. This is all positive for the americans. That everything that is happening, but there is still some light greatest dim but is still there. I think it is good. If you do know about all of the hearings that took place, basically the images of the graves were collected at an encourage more to go fight in iraq than anything else. Benefited al qaeda at the time. Tremendously but yes. It was disastrous. In disastrous for the iraqi people. So i believe that might turning the page, by having this moment of truth and moment of transparency and hopefully this will lead to a more accountability. I think we can move beyond it. Every country in the world is allowing and knowing of this mistake. And unfortunately we had a few mistakes. But i think the United States will move past this. Karen i want to talk a little bit about the region. In the tremendous instability of the region. And maybe tell me that its more stable than im suggesting. And certainly, the process that has unraveled to the state. Look at yemen, syria, you look at the difficulties of the afghan peace talks. Do you see this as going in any positive direction. How should we see what is happening. Ali soufan i think the middle east, its a way bigger mess now. I think you cannot betwee discon what is happening between the United States using our leadership in the work. I think we are advocating the world order that was established after world war ii. We see that in europe, and our allies and with us pulling out of international agreements. We see it is indicating the fight against covid19 for example. This is the first time we have a global crisis, and leadership from the United States. We see it with the Climate Change. And getting out of the pandemic. And always willing to fill the gap. And you see regimes like china and russia are more than eager to fill the vacuum. So we see these vacuums that are starting to happen in different places around the world specifically in the middle east. It and now in the middle east, its a chance to get out of the relationship. When trying to establish an influence using state hackers all of the way to human to lebanon and militia and have, son and some of the other xian groups in syria and in iraq and so forth. [inaudible]. And are trying to play the same game with the ron and the state actors. In trying to reclaim with a believe to be there historically influence. And we see them a state actors in syria libya. In all these things happening because the United States. And when we have the allies, with seemed that and they bleed with us. Theres one thing that is guaranteeing them in the last four years, they have been betrayed. 11000 fighters died fighting isis. And definitely to protect themselves and their cities but they can actually depend on people. [inaudible]. Started to negotiate and we them on the sidelines. An hour trying to bring the government into it after we already an agreement. We did not even consult the governments about the relationship. We just decided that this was going to happen. So what do you think that they were fighting alongside of the United States. Do you think will pull out. And then the taliban will kill them. And everybody remembers what happened with his brother after they went over to kabul. [inaudible]. I think a lot of these things are creating an environment that is making people very distrustful of the United States position. In making our allies nervous. And making our enemies happy. So now we are in a situation where enemies do not fear us. In our allies really dont trust us. Karen so looking home a little bit. One of the things is what is happened to the state of apartment. To the diplomatic agenda. Of the United States, is that part of what is going on and what needs to be fixed Going Forward and prayed to the need to do more with the policy. A more robust state department and what more than that will it take to some kind of leadership. Ali soufan i think we need to have an international strategy. What is our strategy. The world has advocated. Lets start with what we always knew, east mean something. Democracy. And now it seems we are so happy to drag that there have definitely been murdered of Washington Post journalist and dismembered them into pieces. Where are we. What is our strategy. So in order to have a dip diplomatic initiative, you need to have a strategic the you overall. Where is it today. We still have and they did not go away right. We have new threats emerging read from russia. New threats emerging from china. We have this kind of like power struggle that we are having with the chinese that has economic and political in the whole version of the global strategy. What do we have. Where are week. We do not have relationship with our allies. Who basically are looking for that relationship. That is not diplomatic initiatives or diplomatic way. So now we see ourselves losing faith. And the african nations are look to china already. The middle east as we talked about is a mess between iran, turkey and the saudis and eventually the iranians in the turks and Work Together. They Work Together throughout history to dominate. But the United States is nowhere to be found. And unfortunately, this is a believe the number one threats against the United States today. Not terrorists rated this not disinformation. It is us losing our global position in the world. Because when we lose it, that is it. Somebody else will fill the vacuum. Karen and that is a strategy rated. Ali soufan and we are going to lose that if we dont freeze one have a ton of questions. But some of them, so i will read a couple of them. Lets see. You see the trend of the normalization with middle east in israel. You thank you so the direction of more Global Security. Do you think the nonstate armed groups was a threat to u. S. Interests. There are any more villages to be those two. Ali soufan i think what we have seen, anytime you have the United States and israel together is a good thing. How much impact that will have on the arabs, not much. I think i believe this is a pr stunt. Its unraveling. They did not show up by the way to the signing agreement. It will help them if there is biden administration. There is such in the. [inaudible]. About new york and about the russians, there are a lot of people in the Democratic Party that with the Obama Administration at the time, but our friends and allies. So i think that its a winwin situation. We cannot do anything because we have to supported. Is getting what he wants over there. But towards the end, this is not going to change the situation of the grantor in the people who are enemies and state of israel are still there. And the people who are doing business under the table with the state of israel, theyre not doing business over the table of the state of israel. Lets be honest with it. But another. I am happy in a way but its happening over the table now. People are more transparent. Transparency will help other people. So towards the end, will that solve the conflict read will it solve the situation with other things. [inaudible]. With all of these different groups. The answer is very simple. No. Karen okay, i am trying to find some think of will have a good end. What is your perspective on lebanon and its future. Do you think it can will himself out of this rivalry. Ali soufan knows only saudi arabia and iran. As lebanon and the french are trying to regain some of their historical relationships with lebanon and trying to with the government, turkey finds an opportunity to come also in regain the influence it had in whatever future that is challenging them. This is libya and 11 on. [inaudible]. The black banner is still, they actually teach us that in school. So throughout her history for example, the lebanons danced to the toons of france, the orthodox to russia. The jews with. [inaudible]. And that is basically, it is been ingrained in the generations of the country. And unfortunately, is continuing to happen today. Lebanon has relax in the region. So it is having a lot of difficulties, youll see all the difficulties in lebanon. If theyre not having a lot of difficulties, then they are moving towards better coexistence. Lets call it between the different powers. Youll see lebanon lebanon doing great. So basically, the solution and lebanon and the key to peace in lebanon is not risky indefinitely. Karen somebody asked about the weakening of the price of oil due to the global drop in demand as a result of the coronavirus pandemic. Can we see another. Karen. Ali soufan remember wheny decided to fight russia. In a price war with russia. And brought the price down. And then we had the gallon, literally and figuratively to take all. So they brought it down. So really unpopulated, as usual to expect this to happen. And it created significant damage to the economy. Karen i want to ask you about coming talked about u. S. Leadership. What about nonus leadership. Instead of looking for allies and of the world, in the middle east or faster, but their feet somebody out there that could be a strong leader to help restore the kind of world values us instability and democratic values. Ali soufan i hate to tell you, no one. Any see the europeans are doing something. They do of the regional scale. Like france and italy, and libya and lebanon. Its always on the small region scale. Its not a larger scale. The world order that exists today is an American World order. Its established after world war ii. And especially after the corruption, and by the president of the United States. People want the American Leadership. And now theyre like oh, wherein americans. And you know what, with all the respect to the chinese and the russians and everybody of complained about the United States. Name and unfortunately now they have a lot more citizens complaining about us. And the more the world, this world order has really been amazing for everyone. I can make the argument that china where it is today because of the opportunities that was given to them by the world order that was established by the United States. Help in japan and europe after world war ii. Created the foundation to a lot of countries, enemies and friends can use this order to help the people. And grandson, and is not perfect. Nothing is perfect in this world. There is problems with it. , as with other people but in the end, you cannot say this world order, that was established in red on the United States could not be perfect for the human race. Like the human race is never seen in its history. Karen but the postworld war ii order, and the American Leadership in establishing this order with the International Order. Really switch which you talk about all of the time which is the global order, nec kind see kind of the downside of the globalization. There are a lot of massive issues that are going to have to be dealt with. And some of them have to do with technology and some with a whole new way of a threat coming our way, Climate Change pandemic, economy. The refugees being created. So in truth, the way forward do you see the need for any kind of global border. Maybe based on the old one but that theres a little more robust. In the threat or just going through a bad. And it needs to be governance more than substance. Ali soufan the way to think about the United States and the way we let the world is that we bring our allies with us. If nato and other International Organizations and agreements. If you have the united nations. And would establish basically general and semblance in new york. We have this for a reason. In the traditions of the United States and in the world order. So as not only the American Leadership. Its basically allowing everyone to live under that umbrella. If and i think it will be successful in bringing all the countries in the world to this agreement with Climate Change. We are able to bring a lot of our allies to the table. The iran deal. It got a lot of successes but unfortunately when you just log out and you say, look, i dont like Climate Change because i dont believe in Climate Change or whatever it is. Dont like it because china has taken her money but okay, so lets take everything to china. And take away the strategic anchor that we have to the guarantee that the nations over there will have the United States back. Lets leave them alone. Betray them economically. I dont like, the neighbors the dumping the fee. And then from each one of these grievances, actually weakening the cornerstone of the International Order. We are the biggest losers that falls. Karen will none of our audience has asked about terrorism. In qaeda, ron, isis, instability because of terrorism in iraq and elsewhere. You been talking a lot about the renewal of al qaeda about what is really going on with isis. Can you talk a little bit about how you see the left and particularly in terms of how you evaluated in terms of larger state tracker threats or regional threats. How should we think about terrorism these days. Ali soufan sure. Lets go to some of these threats al qaeda isis. They will not go away. Just because not complaining about it than the American Television because trump does read about it because it does not mean that it doesnt exist in the world. Hundreds and thousands are still affected by this hateful ideology. So al qaeda for example, changed. They changed it before. [inaudible]. He decided that he needed to have from phase one to phase two. His strategy is called managing the strategy. Phase one into a lot of terrorism tweak in the International Order in the regional order. When the order collapsed, were talking about the american traditions. When it weekend and collapsed, you move to phase two because the ages for the americans listen the muslim countries according to paul. Theyre going to become we can fall. Looking for the fall. Now al qaeda will shift to phase two. Phase two is to invest themselves into what is happening. In order to present this vacuum forming field. Because he did that. Soon whoever will for this vacuum will be the american a g. So that is the policy. To create a vacuum and create chaos. Another final instructions to his people said, theres been a lot of resistance that lot will be killed but we have to kill them to save them. We have to kill them to save them. So if you look at their strategy and how theyve invented in the wars. Or how theyre embedded in the local conflict in somalia. Or how theyre embedded in the african, especially in the south. Which is actually one of the earlier question so that we didnt answer. But yes, al qaeda strategically is way more dangerous than isis. In the pentagon said that al qaeda sentence way more dangerous to the United States strategy and regions than them. So al qaeda is way bigger than it used to be. They have more experience and more area under control. And with the americans, popular among so any people all away from the source to africa to southeast asia. In isis, did not go away. [inaudible]. They will recruit. As long as the conditions that allow isis to happen in the first place, does exist. Isis will come back. We start seeing isis in afghanistan, iran and prominence in west africa. They have isis now in east africa. So they are doing a terrorist attack. And they have a group network. And they have been able to recover 300 million. So they have money, they have opportunity. They have a lot of people in jail but eventually, was a countries and nations go through the prosecutions and putting them in jail, eventually people start to escape and get out of these constitution camps or refugee camps or whatever you want to call them. This is in syria. Isis can recruit. So isis is still there. There still dangerous. We see every day for more terrorist attacks in syria and iraq. That indicates the surgeons. So this is from another perspective. And in another perspective iran another countries in mind, came up with the idea basically copying the saudis. And we see what they did. They were very successful. So they are trying to copy the model in yemen and in iraq. And they have successively copied it. And now, even after they spend a lot of money, it seems politically that the iranians have more control of what is happening in the country than the United States just using state hackers. Some a lot of these groups that actually also in syria has done. [inaudible]. And in lebanon, he became a very important card in conflict. In the same thing with huma yem. In the southern peninsula. I think we have a Violent Exchange of groups is very active and popular among a lot of people. In the middle east and they dance to the tune of regional powers or two terrorists. And this makes the region even more dangerous. And from the majority perspective, we see a new threats emerging in the west. White supremacy exchange. And this time, it is not domestic is a used to be. But it is part of transnational muslim. There copying and learning from their experience. I believe the white supremacist today are the same level of where the chef parties in the 90s. They even have their own place where they go to ukraine and fights on both sides of the complex. And they go and fight with the russian fight. And folks in the western world. And then come back to the countries with the mission to create division. And you have seen that in the United States. We see this people actually went to ukraine. And operationally, the activities in ukraine thinking back to do the rallies. So this is a new threat and i think today according to the government and the Trump Administration that the stuff is way more dangerous to us than any of the other stuff. Karen so what is this tell us about the world. That we have all of these things. Ali soufan thats what happens. Some perfect. But the lack of leadership, its going to go all over the place. Karen you talked about the conditions with isis. He said if the conditions continue. Im assuming that you will spread these across the other groups, and the white supremacist groups or whether it is a resurgent al qaeda. What exactly do we mean by the conditions. Horses just something that is going to continue to have anything to do with the transformation of the questions. And they can say, what is the meantime the conditions. Is this mismanagement or is the future of that. Ali soufan i think that is a good question. Even the conditions with isis. Its very different than the conditions that allow us for al qaeda. With isis, you have to think about iraq and the divisions in iraq and about what happened with saddam. [inaudible]. And the leaders of saddam and you say, youre on your your own because your part about black party. The destruction of that in iraq. There are so any things and became authoritarian collapse. Any things led to that. The government and in support and did not support, the different groups, basically standing up for the extremists. There are so any lead things that led to that. And even in al qaeda in yemen, basically the conditions that allowed them to grow to today were very different from scientific conditions allowing al qaeda to allow it to grow. And what is happening and the arabs in hawaii and how they are running together in order to kind of establish some kind of area of control parties very different from geopolitical areas. This not only going being used. In the currency. Al qaeda shaping itself to be beneficial over this divide. It is so it is different. With the white supremacist, unfortunately it always existed in the west. It weve always had it. The voice and White Supremacy in the United States. But we you to do something is different. Mostly the conditions that allow this group to grow. Basically external conditions. Specifically russia. The White Supremacy groups, are fighting against the russians believe me. And the fighting with them. And finally we have this amazing success. And they designated a White Supremacy group, as a Transition Party to the very first time ever, an organization. [inaudible]. And basically they are trying to have them travel and have the experience in ukraine and then come back and do whatever they wanted to do. Creates more divisions. Create racial wars. And they are doing it in the u. S. France and germany and a lot of other places. And now the leaders of the groups for example today, when they see the pressure from the fbi and they have a lot of production because everything they do is productive. And they run and they go to russia. So the party against the people when they are escaping, they are making videos. So yes, we have global powers thats involved in this Information Campaign thats making these people look way bigger than they are on social media and a lot of us are falling for it. Karen let me feel like the first amendment. Ali soufan . [inaudible]. There are really the regulations. Were not talking about, if you want to. [inaudible]. I think what we need to start having the conversation is about the facts. You can do whatever you want but you have no reason to go to the people in charge. This is where we need to teach the domestic terrorism wars that we have in the United States. Because he blew up a building. A federal building. And wed could not indict him on charges. Because it does not exist. He was a good guy. So far al qaeda. It doesnt exist. Karen but everybody thinks of him as a terrorist. Name is tried. Ali soufan legally he is not. You should know that towards the end, prosecutors talk about what people think of that individual. The go with the law. And somebody prayed about this. Try to do a terrorist attack the fbi stopped them. In the charges the prosecutors say no. And then they have to give them up and let them go. Maybe they will prosecute somebody like the telecommunications act. Karen so your criticism of it is based on investigative powers ahead of tha of the crime rather than after the crime. Speech of why do we have to wait until all these people are murdered when the sky can be stopped before murdering and get arrested for example. Karen in there because back to other issues which is one of the conditions and insights of the circumstances. One of the risks in society they can be addressed side of the law. This a hold of the conversation. Ali soufan if our leadership on the bipartisan basis do not deal with this now, unfortunately, i think it will start having roots even though it was sent to us from russia. And it was not with love. I think we need to be very careful about this. There is good people on both sides. Karen its interesting when you talk about Going Forward afraid i think one of the issues of the black banners and what it means to know what happens and as you say how it happened is the accountability initially. For the use of torture and for the use of other powers that were extensive and overused for the balancing. We see no accountability for what we have gotten into. And reservation of the law. Do you think that accountability question is over in terms of the war on terror. Do you think there will be some form of accountability somehow and somewhere he and if not, what is this mean Going Forward in terms of what individuals and leaders in particular from using these kinds of methods when theyre not punished in the crimes and take place outside of the constitution, and International Military law not punished. Honey see that playing out. Ali soufan is a great question. And its a very long question. Karen dont worry we hope only one minute left. Ali soufan i think i think accountability is extremely important. In accountability and transparency go handinhand. A lot of people complained what they are seeing now with President Trump the Trump Administration. It did not happen in 2016. That is been going on for a long time. For decades. The reason and is been going on for decades is for two reasons. Lack of transparency and these happened to any administration. Reporter . So if you want to see this, look at all of the issues of torture, living in the rock, on nafta on anything. These discussions need to be rooted in truth. Not these alternative facts. It if we dont have that, thats significantly damaging for our democracy. That would be the beginning of the end of our political system. So its extremely important to have transparency. An extremely important to have accountability because without it, we dont have democracy. But nobody wants to go back and talk about all of these things. Because everybody is guilty. It yes trump is totally different. But its really happened before. How any people were held accountable for the iraq war. Thousands of people were killed. Al qaeda, how any people. How any people were held accountable for the American People, 70 percent of the American People in the iraq war, was behind 911. How much of the public believes that. They basically do the research on their own. You know, they it because they were lied to as part of the disInformation Campaign. How any people were held accountable for what we talked about earlier. In working together. How any people were accountable for torture. How any people were held accountable for not in the death of 3000 people in 911. And changing the world as we know it. How any people were held accountable. So it is extremely important in democracy to have transparency. And it lease, we just put it out there for people to make up your mind. Thats what cleanse your soul. And i think were in a position in America Today where we need our souls to be cleansed in order to move forward. Karen there was a good one. I think that encapsulated. I do think not Holding People accountable will haunt us Going Forward. Let me ask you the one question that i always ask at the end. The scenario that we pretrade of the world of our own existence as a country. What you see signs of hope. Ali soufan im always hopeful. I look at the problems and i believe that we as americans, we can find solutions for this. [inaudible]. We have the civil rights movements. We always came out stronger. And on the United States, yes we mess up a lot. But do we eventually do the right thing. And i believe this world, this world which we live in needs American Leadership. And i believe the world is looking for us to lead. And if we dont, its going to be a big problem. I dont have any hope for you. But if we do him a i hope that we are in a position where we start thinking for a brighter future. Karen so we need to have you back the sequel to this conversation may be in six months, maybe in a year to talk about a piece of it. Can we get through this time. As you pointed out, did not start with donald trump. With so any others. And a lot of those were tied to 911 tightly. He said this is something that you a time i talk about it all the time. It is such a pleasure to talk to you. I hope people can forget that we were talking about the book. That we werent talking about it [laughter]. But what you did with Daniel Friedman and with people with both versions. Because actually reading both gives you a deeper sense of what was hidden. And i put the intentions for behind classifying this information. So i think you so much for joining us. If our listeners i want to apologize. Ive never seen so any questions in my life. So i got to as any as i could but for those of you who want to continue some of this conversation in a little different days, on october 1s october 1st, we have an event that will be on another channel which is actually another discussion which from the New York Times and others, authors. [inaudible]. And a student of japanese were times. So join us again on october 5th dont forget to buy the book. And even if you have bought the the black banners declassified. And join me in my tremendous things for all of his work ali soufan. And for his continued education in the spirit of keeping us all thinking and thinking productively. Thank you. Ali soufan thank you it was my great pleasure. Confident to sit here and describe the universe. And it all started the big bang. Pop. [laughter]. [laughter]. I wouldnt give a report for an interview unless they read one of the best books. They had read the book. For 20 years, book tv in depth husted americans top nonfiction authors for an in depth conversation with cspan2 viewers. And on sunday, and noon eastern, join us for a live 20th anniversary special. More authors, your phone calls, Facebook Comments texts and tweets. In the look back to memorable in depth moments. The picture on the back, do you remember those days. What is in the book. It. Its an examination of time at yale. Watch in depth sunday climate noon eastern on book tv, on cspan2. In this weeks public environments, we bring you florida congressman matt gates is currently serving the second term in the house of representatives, the number of Armed Services committee and house judiciary committee. Rep. Matt gaetz is broken congress focuses on veterans