Transcripts For CSPAN2 Francine Hirsch Soviet Judgment At Nuremberg 20240711

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Im pleased to introduce tonight speaker a professor of history at the survey on modern european history ethnographic knowledge in the making of the soviet union including the price of American Historical Association Joshua Rubenstein human rights and International Affairs for over 40 years as an activist independently recognized scholar of literature and politics of the former soviet union. And the struggle for human rights in the last days of stalin and his writings have appeared in the wall street journal the New York Times and many more. Tonight discussing the book a history of the International Military tribunal after world war ii which is called the comprehensive history author of the perpetrator on trial. Congratulation on your wonderful book. I am holding it up. Lets begin by reminding our listeners when the nuremberg trials took place in what was the purpose . I also want to say thank you to the whole food workcenter and to you joshua, its an honor to be here today. Just to began the nuremberg trials also known as the International Tribunal took place november 1945 through october 46 that were coming up on the 75th anniversary. Great britain and france and the soviet union got together with the former nazi leaders and organizations for conspiracy and war crimes and crimes against humanity this of course was the first of the nuremberg trials but those that happen and later were carried out by the us alone i just want to say from the start thats one of the reasons and the other reasons as well we can talk about. And with the allies when do they begin to discuss to hobos not see leaders responsible for their crimes . This began in the middle of the second world war. What i want to say one of the key arguments i want to make that nuremberg will not happen with the soviet union. Soviets were the ones that are out in front calling for a special International Tribunal and then to be calling for this october 1942 for another reason the soviets saw this that the war was horrible for the soviet union and with the cooperation of all interested governments and other not see leaders to be brought to justice. Many discussions about how to bring the nazis to justice but with the International Tribunal britain and the United States were at first reluctant especially about the idea of having any kind of trial before the war was over and to be very concerned about retribution. Your book provides a long overdue account of how soviet contribute to the allied understanding of war crimes such as crimes against peace and it should be directed for the leadership including political and military readers how do you plan to document the role to create the Legal Framework from the nuremberg trials . What would you tell us about . And the minister of Foreign Affairs archive had so much to document the day today going on in the trial but on the legal side and with the academy of sciences. And then as a journalist at the academy of science and as the war was going on in 1942 turn to lawyers to study the question of the criminal responsibility and for crimes that were carried out and we can talk about the details later but in the archives to see the early draft that later became part of our book. And then to see those deliberations among the lawyers and the role of andres and we will talk about later. He was reading the works well and so that was one way to trace things. And also looking at the United Nations War Crimes Commission that preceded and met in london and there was talking about also this question of punishing war criminals so it was a lot of fun to look at this paper trail and see the work go from the institute of law to the ministry of Foreign Affairs to make it to london and the United States. When did they start meeting to discuss plans for such a trial . I would have to double check on when that is happening. The ideas are introduced. They may start to get a hearing in 1943. So its actually at the height of the war. The soviets are at work on this in the height of the war in terms of the London Commission i would have to double check. But it was at that point they were not clear who would win. Thats part of why. It was never clear that they would have been and i think what is so remarkable on the soviet side of things is again in the darkest days of the war they are talking about a potential trial and theyve set up their own War Crimes Commission with the aim of documenting every single war crime and atrocity committed and occupied in the soviet territory and before the war, victory is a dream. The amount of devastation that has been done is astounding and its at that moment the soviets are starting to think about this question and with other countries not being so interested at that point. They were carrying out on the Eastern Front with a systematic shooting of jews in the towns and villages and cities throughout the territories. Who is documenting those as well. Absolutely. The Extraordinary Commission was documenting those crimes and not just of the commission, but the soviet chief of police was gathering reports of those as well. A. How were the jurists from Great Britain and france in the soviet union, how are they able to coordinate their efforts as they planned the tribunal and played out the scenes over many months there mustve been moments of contention and misunderstanding. This was not easy. First on a very basic fundamental issue these countries have different legal traditions. They had different experiences of the war. You think about france which surrender early and then the United States britain took a beating as well and the United States comes out in a better position so everyone is coming to the table with different ideas about justice and what the tribunal should look like. There is mistrust and in some ways i write a lot in the book about the parties and the dinners and the events that happened outside of the court roocourtroom or before the pretl period it might sound like a boring legal document, but its not. These different powers were putting together to tell the story about the war and they all wanted to tell different stories. They wanted to claim the story for themselves and they had to Different Things they wanted included or left out. The british and the french didnt want them included in the story of the war. The soviets wanted them in a certain way working together with the nazis or appeasement. So, it becomes very contentious even early on. Id like to ask specifically how did they work out what to say and then from the east so how was that handled in the negotiations and second, we know now under the orders, thousands of officers were murdered in the spring of 1940. The germans found those and made clear when they liberated that territory they said look what we found. There are these secret protocols that lay out the division in the case of war. There was a report from london from a soviet diplomat who writes back during these negotiations its become apparent he hadnt been told about the secret protocols so that eventually they tell him. But in london, hes flying bli blind. The soviets are not expecting a trial in the way we think about a trial. Its more with a show trial in the sense where the script is known from the start. They were surprised to learn that the defense would be able to serve as witnesses on their own behalf and able to call witnesses. They thought that evidence that they introduced would stand because of article 21 in the charter but they thought this meant that defense could contest it. In the working out of the indictment again just coming from moscow, coming from the soviet secret police, they make a decision to include the massacre the soviets committed. They had been talking about holding a show trial but then somebody gets the bright idea so it goes into the indictment and then the liberation among all four countries of the prosecution. This is an issue. They have a pretty clear idea they are the ones that committed the massacre. The u. S. Chief prosecutor and sir david plays the role and try to convince to not include this at all and he says his hands are tied and everybody understands his hands are tied. Not only does it not get included the number they put in was 900 something and then at the last minute they change it to 10,000 or 11,000 and so again theres this moment of if the trials are going to go on, do we accept it. He says not to include them in the indictment. I have to go back to moscow and talk to stalin and that is going to take a few weeks. At that point they want things to move on and then it becomes a big thing in the tribunal when the German Defense basically they asked to bring the defense to contest the charges. So that is a critical moment in the trial and everyone really is concerned about and as the trial is going forward, jackson is getting more and more evidence suggesting they are guilty from the crime. Theres not a lot in the documents about that and we try to look for something that explains why its not included in the judgment, but its not in the judgment. I will tell you a little bit about him and then i will be writing a little bit from chapter five of the book. We have a coming together of people from four countries with different justice systems. People and personalities matter a great deal. One of the notable personalities is at the time of the trial the Deputy Foreign minister and he is been involved in the discussions about nuremberg from the start he was best known for his role as the chief prosecutor as the trial which took place from 1936 to 1938. Stalin had used these trials to get rid of his rivals. They would be in charge from afar and this is what the soviets think is going to happen in nuremberg. They have an idea that the secret commission in moscow is going to be able to somehow pull the strings of the puppet and get them to do what they want and things become more complicated. So they start november 20th. They dont have enough translators or interpreters. Hes trying to take over the bulk of the case and there are rumors that they are looking to introduce evidence inculcating the soviet union and war crimes and crimes against peace. This is the crime of waging an aggressive war and they all knew that they were in nuremberg to do the bidding and their fate rested in his hands. The u. S. Delegation had regarded him as an ominous figure because of his role in the trial the defense attorney and a former member of the nazi party who claimed to have dug up some documents about the protocols. Hitler and stalin plotted out the division of the part of europe in the crime against peace many issues were discuss discussed. A few weeks earlier, jackson had asked his british, french and soviet colleagues to write a secret memorandum detailing the countrys war crime in anticipation. Soviet leaders had put their own spin on jacksons request without admitting to any wrongdoing, they had made a list of taboo topics that they wanted kept out of the courtroom. Not surprisingly this secret list that had been typed out on a single sheet of paper that i found in the archive included a number of items about the soviet german relations including the german soviet nonaggression pact of 1939 and all questions relating to it in other words the secret protocol. The visit to berlin and moscow included more general topics including the republic and soviet german relations. It was to oppose the submission of any documents that were harmful to soviet interests. They didnt give permission to share a physical copy of the list with any of the western prosecutors. Once the copy was in circulation the soviets would lose the shield of the plausible deniability. Jackson gave a dinner at the grand hotel in his honor and he went there directly. The american judges were appalled to hear that they had dropped. This was perhaps the only time the soviets did not mind the pace of interpretation from russian into english. They enjoyed the moment. Can you tell us how they presented the case and was there anything surprising about the approach . At the beginning when its divided up the british will take charge against the time this was kind of shocking to them. They are only supposed to focus on war crimes and crimes against humanity in the east, but they actually do present some on the other crimes to make sure they have their fair day in court this is a surprise those that are brought in to talk about crimes against the jews and concentration camps and the testimony that i will talk about, this was a late in the game decision, so one of the things i looked at was putting together a list of witnesses and then the two other witnesses that are brought in from poland, so i will talk a little bit about that now and then maybe we will have time to talk about it some more but yes, that is extremely important. Its late february, 1946 and the soviet prosecution is presenting its part of the case. Hes presenting on crimes against humanity and is about to call him to the witness box. They joined a group of partisans and later in march of 1944 the soviet leaders staged a rescue operation and pushing them out of the territory where he worked with others to compile evidence and initially they are thinking of including this evidence and theres no talk at the beginning of sending so theyve been screening the witnesses for the case since november but all the while theyve been on the fence about sending the witnesses. Having the prosecution building its case on documentary evidence alone. They made the final decision to send witnesses in late january after the french prosecution called witnesses to testify about the concentration camps. It brought meaning to the numbers giving voice to individuals suffering. They ultimately send ten witnesses and he was the latest addition to that list so this is from chapter eight. He spent a couple of days and sleepless nights nervously waiting to testify. The responsibility of representing the jewish people weighed on him heavily. Well i passed the exam, will i fulfill my mission properly for history, for my people. Unlike the other witnesses, he remained standing in the witness box as if it had been a matter of reciting the jewish prayer for the dead. He also spoke in july 1941 and before they were organized that august half of the population had been murdered. Before the occupation at the end of the war there were only 602 left. They asked for a clarification. 79,400 were exterminated. The most harrowing part of the testimony was the recounting in december 1941 why the german 19n soldiers in the ghetto hospital and that part is too disturbing to read so i will go on. He testified for almost 40 minutes and he was spent but also strengthened by the knowledge that they had surviv survived. He considered it a matter of jewish destiny that he had survived and threw them all that had adhered to their ideology. He had indeed done well speaking to the jewish people and also testifying on behalf of the soviet people. They all congratulated him afterwards for doing his part. He served in Important Role at this point during the trial during his testimony they were able to innovate the narrative of the crimes against humanity and war time suffering of the entire soviet people in the occupied east. Let me add two things for my research i wrote my biography there and they met for the first time and became Close Friends and wrote a portrait that took up almost a full page in april of 1944 that stunned many and highlights the fate and suffering. Later when asked to testify they got wind of the fact. The american guards would have to shoot him. The testimony was covered in the press. I believe so, i hadnt followed it in the press. He was also of jewish background and he wrote a book about it and later on they were hesitant to acknowledge but there were moments during the war where they were happy to acknowledge. And also the writer and the huge amount of correspondence and the number of journalist to have dual roles and on the one hand for the soviet that tried to get the writing publishing they are doing that as well but as many members of the soviet delegation and talking about that in the book that there is a dual so it is the idea that in nuremberg among the soviet delegation everyone was informing on everyone else. And those Police Agents that are writing back reports of the trials and then nightlife and telling with each other. And that is part of it. And the journalist they write some of the most interesting letters home talking about what is going on and as an editor with a six page treatise after the first month of the trial reporting on all of the problems and the difficulties of the soviet delegation is having so talking about the question of translators and interpreters so this comes up again they dont have good enough translators and interpreters and this is dangerous. And writes about there are no books about soviet law and the library and this is a problem and americans was some good soviet movies to. And a heartbreaking part of it was soviet women in the delegation and how they are made fun of by the british and americans because of their shabby clothing and you feel so bad for them. And then to learn how to do this to have those translators and interpreters but it also involved addressing people. So those letters are great. I have a final question. You concluded the nuremberg trial the opening chapter of the cold war. Why do you believe that quick. I believe its an opening chapter of the cold war because how they are talking about it so march 1946 in the nuremberg courtroom and what we now know as a courtesy and is a civilian at that point and basically with the dangers of communism. So the next day in the courtroom when the soviets arrive they see the Defense Attorneys holding up the newspapers for their clients and the newspapers about the cold war basically the church urges everyone so that moment in march is critical in the trial that is also when the defense case starts and the soviets do a wonderful job by the way and they touch and impression on everyone and then two days later they are presenting and and all of this they really go out of their way and to have free reign. When the defendants had to talk about corporation and the soviets back in moscow and interpreting what is going on they see this as part of a concerted effort with the western judges are letting this happen. Where tensions between the countries and soviet union and its a great quote of how this play in the trial the Wartime Alliance really it becomes under strain and again so that is significant in terms of understanding the rhythms as the one with them of the trials and it is critical for understanding what happens because the nuremberg trials rightly so thats a great. But at to understand that this is all happening in a cold war context so to understand the political origin of the new language of human rates is one of the things i said in the last chapter. Very good now we will turn the program back to maddie to hear questions and comments from our listeners. Thank you. Thank you for your wonderful research what was the consequences of the decision quick. Such a great question. Part of why they decided to establish so they dont have to follow all the rules of the regular tribunal its interesting because they have their own idea what it should look like. The british are reluctant and the crimes against humanity with the regular tribunal that would be more difficult and the laws or soma on somewhat different and with the those negotiations really on to do things to be in a more straightforward way. And they were committed by many. And the result of the trials and then prosecuted and sentenced to death. Yes the nuremberg trials with german leaders and organizations with the access on axis powers and then the japan trials as well but with nuremberg it is the fourth power tribunal and then all of the countries have their own trials as a try war criminals from all Different Countries the soviets of romanian and hungarian with the axis powers. Holding the first war crimes trial and those civilians inc. And then theres another famous trial in 1943 in december and the trial and then cooperating with the nazis. What the germans. And those that capture german officers. And then to include its. And that that was included in that is part of the reason why the western judges and the soviets included evidence and in the indictment. And the indictment was published and then to confirm the soviets have done it. And then to read his papers that was one of the biggest regrets. But then the western judges overruling and allow for the German Defense to call three witnesses to contest those witnesses that happens over two days in court and then that shows and that the soviets have this idea what it would be so the soviets are upset how that plays out so it seems like the western power thing and on the western judges will save the day. One of the reasons the soviet wanted an International Tribunal and they were american and british custody. So they are putting together a list of some generals that they captured and one of the soviets praying in the propaganda so they get a couple of them in their women to add to that with the second International Tribunal and that nurnberg had fell with the chinese industrialist there was a whole hullabaloo thats a whole other interesting story so the american and british custody by the end of the trial but its all over the documents supporting which they decide they will have this trial on their own that something the soviets and the french are very upset about. And with the influence of the nuremberg trials and what was the reaction of the soviet people . Thats a great question and as a russian scholar i know who is looking at the actual response inside the soviet union with that coverage of what was going on its hard to tell from the documents that i looked at that yes there is soviet press coverage so the fact its doesnt really tell us what people thought about the trial what was going on and from memoirs that there was interest in the trial of what is going on and again if the news is any indication but again what is happening in the soviet union what does it look like to have a country were 27 million are dead millions more are homeless . Again the amount of destruction so the focus of people is on rebuilding to restore their lives. As a historian so we would have to do more research and thats one of those things its hard to get at. So what impact if any that has a lasting impression. And in terms of the impact of the trial also because of what happened that the nuremberg trial and in germany to reeducate the german public also what most germans thought about it. And a bunch of riders in germany at the time saying theres not that much interest in the german population just trying to survive. Its hard to measure that. And with the Lasting Impact in terms of what happens later with human rights legislation and its transformation on the cold war comes in and then and then with another set of trials. And part of letting people go. On the other organization and then to make up the socialist states and the fact it isnt working and then they need to join together again with those criminals the soviets again are appalled at how many germans are nazi leaders and rebuilding happens to build a strong germany and the decision with all the reparations. With that thank you for a wonderful night in. With that thank you for a wonderful night in. Have a good night keep reading and please be well. Thank you for having me. This was really fun. Good night. Good afternoon welcome to our talk with the book the last million from the world war ii the cold war. And then with ethics and International Affairs the paragraph the published