And moderated by cogswell omak. My name is donna rapaccioli. As you may realize, 2020 marks 100 years of purpose driven his education at fordham. Since our inception we believe in the power of partnerships to inform and to lead change. I very much would like to thank the Gabelli Center for Global Security and analysis and our wonderful partners, the museum of American Finance and the society of new york for sponsoring todays conversation. The centennial series was designed to shine light on emerging and important trends. One of the things we had realize is that reflecting on our history provides new insights into the current challenges that have disrupted and change industries and Business Models. Todays session focuses on the challenges that leaders at that j. P. Morgan chase and company faced, and survived, as is seen in jpmorgans fall and revival how the wave of consolidation changed americas premier bank. Im very proud to say that j. P. Morgan is a largest employer of Gabelli School of graduate i know many of them are on the webinar today. A few ground rules. Our session will take place in two parts. First, david allen, president and ceo of the museum of American Finance will introduce Nicholas Sargen and cogswell omak. The nick and cogswell both will discuss jp morgans fall and revival. All in the discussion and i will facilitate audience questions and will ask that you type your questions in the q a section at the bottom of screen. Ours acres what is the best to answer all of your questions. As as a participant in todays webinar will also be entered into a raffle to win a free ebook the copy of the book. The winners will be notified by the end of the week. Before i turn over to david to introduce nick and consuelo i want to take a moment to remind everyone that both the Gabelli School and the museum of American Finance rely on your philanthropy for our support and i ask you consider making a gift to both of our organizations. With that said im going to come over to david. Thanks, donna. Its great to be back with our friends at fordham as was the cfa. Nick sargen has been living the history of the market since the 1970s when you started out at the u. S. Treasury of the San Francisco federal reserve. What happened after that was a 25 year career at morgan guarantee, Salomon Brothers and jpmorgan private bank. From 2003 until recently nick was a cio of western and southern, and its affiliate of Fort Washington advisors were he served as chief economist. His background is economics. He received both his masters and his phd in economics from stanford and he has written extensively on International Financial markets and really has had a front row seat to the many decades of changes that it happened in the banks and markets, and will hear about that as he interviewed by consuelo mack, the anchor and executive producer of wealth track which is now in its 17th year. Congratulations on that, consuelo. Its a program that is seen nationwide and that pioneer in Telecom Business television. Consuelo has been recognized as many accolades including the first ever Lifetime Achievement award for women in print and electronic financial journalism. That was from the womens economic roundtable, also received forbes Public Awareness award in many magazines accolades as the best money tv host. But forget all that because my favorite accolade is that she is a valued and trusted never of the board of trustees of the museum of American Finance. Its my pleasure to turn it over to consuelo mack. Thanks, david, and that is my favorite honor as well and i am thrilled to be here with gabelli and also the museum of American Finance. History does matter of thought. Thats why we are here and nick sargen has written a terrific book, jpmorgans fall and revival and i love the fact its a fault and revival. It really follows up, it picks up where ron charles classic the house of morgan left off, so its a much needed history and nick, im delighted to have you here so thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much, consuelo, david, and i really appreciate with the museum of American Finance and the Gabelli Center at fordham are doing sponsoring, wow, 100 years thats amazing as well as the cfa society. Over to you, consuelo. Let me give, at all of it to what davids introduction because you have at top economic and strategy positions at some major wall street firms, as he noted. But also you did to stand that jpmorgan before the merger, 19701983 during the developed country prices, debt crisis, and also another between 1995 and 2003 which is when the merger happen in 2000. Youve actually lived this history. I want to ask you what compelled you to write this book . Why is the fall and revival of jpmorgan a story that needs to be told . Thanks so much, consuelo. The way i think of it it was a journey, at the first stage of the journey was when i decided after 25 years on wall street to do something different. But but i had too much in betwen jobs before it with two [inaudible] what struck me at the time, i loved morgan, had been there twice but i let Salomon Brothers but they were completely different Corporate Cultures. What struck me over that 25 year stretch as morgan entered the securities world and salt and other Investment Banks entered the commercial banking world, is the two Corporate Cultures started to bleed. My second tour of duty at morgan when he went downtown, the headquarters, i said and and a Morgan GriffithSalomon Brothers . The change that much. The culture changed a lot. And the business. Right. Original idea was may be right about how immigration and culture mashed. I shared with my former boss susan bell, and she also is an author and said nick, i like the idea but dont get too complex. This book is got to be the more. I said thank you. I put it down for 15 years. Now we are now in the summer of 2018. I am in london with a reunion of former morgan colleagues to celebrate a birthday. You would of thought, consuelo, that we had just had a conversation the previous day or so. I had not seen some of these people for decades. Whats top of mind . Discussing the good old days at morgan, and everybody delighted under jamie dimon, Jpmorgan Chase is back and standing tall, the still you could tell if only we didnt lose our independence. And so with that did is i realized, i worked at the front and i said, i really didnt understand what happened. Right. I spoke with colleagues but also started doing research and got documents on the plans for jpmorgan, because i was away for 11 years when it went from being a bank, combined bank and Investment Bank. Let me stop you there because you are talked about being with the alarm and how fond everyone who worked at the old morgan was the obama lets go back to what jpmorgan represented really. When you think of jpmorgan himself financier and you think of the bank at the time i mean, they were critical to the financial solvency of this country. They failed at the u. S. Government. They feel that the new york stock exchange. Its almost like they bailed out the world in various panics, 11895 and one and one in 1907. That was before the was that was chronicled in rons book but what was jpmorgan from when you got there the first time in 1978 . What did it represent in finance when you got there in 78 . Excellent point. I would just begin by saying, im from the west coast. I didnt know what wall street was. When i was at the San Francisco fed, a Bank Examiner onetime told me, he said if anything goes wrong in the financial system, the fed places to calls. The first is to jpmorgan ceo two calls may be simultaneous. Simultaneous. The second is to that of citibank, then walter. That really had an impact on me. By coincidence headhunter contact me about a job there. At that time when it went up for the interview, 1977, who was in trouble . New york city. Who was leading the charge on getting funding for new york city . Pat patterson, the chairman and ceo of morgan served in that capacity. She would say what fascinated me was going to work for a bank but i was fascinated by the history of jpmorgan in the role that morgan played in coming to the assistance of Financial Institutions and the government. And also the culture again, when i think of jpmorgan, i am thinking number one it was old guard. You were a kid from the west coast, as you said, the son of greek immigrants. It was a very different environment. It was old guard blueblood rocksolid financially, a true fiduciary. They put the interest of the client first. Premier baker, Bluechip Companies and also trusted advisors to wealthy families. Thats what i think about it as, but theres another dimension to it, right . You were just describing. Yes. I would say in ron chernows book he describes it as a special place, i mean, it was like a bankers, to the governments come to the elites. It wasnt a retail bank. It didnt have branches around except for a few in new york city. That was the history. What i found on the first day that you went to report, you were given a video of the history of jpmorgan, and the first thing you learned was our motto, doing firstclass business in a firstclass way. That was important to me. I am a researcher and i want to make sure im in an institution that has the highest standards of integrity, and i found them. I might add it to look at Jpmorgan Chase website today, there was a tremendous amount when it said click on about as come theres a lot about his jpmorgan going back as well, and they have model but it is close. Motto. Talk about the developing country crisis, debt crisis, and you with it in the midst of it. The bank was changing and it was an iconic leader named lou i wanted to go international. Of course what international economist, one of the recent picture you went there begin with. But what needed to change what was changing at jpmorgan when you got there . First of all i would say two things. Even before i arrived on the scene, the bank which always had it at offices in paris and london going back to the time of the founding, but in the 70s when we have the first real shock, all of a sudden you many developing countries, especially in latin america that were running deficits on their international trade. You have been the banks multinational banks come money center banks, say wait a minute, demand for loans is down in the u. S. , but its very strong outside. Banks began to pour money into and lou, you mentioned, the action had a prominent role in the london office. That was iced a stepping stone because morgan wanted leader to be global. So the long story is he and the collie, dennis, who came from humble roots like me but was the horatio, he rose to become eventually the president successor. They were instrumental in turning morgan into International Lending foreignexchange and the like. Everything is fine and then in the early 80s we had the second shock when i ran, excuse me, we had the invasion of the oilfields. All of a sudden now the banks continued to land. Everything faceoff, we made it to the first crisis. So long story to cut to the chase morgan was moving along with everybody else. I still recall one minute i worked for the most Famous International economist. Our lenders to mexico said hey, can you get a little upbeat story . Aye on vacation, cape cod. All of a sudden i am reading the newspaper, mexico out of foreignexchange reserve. Then i read brazil out of foreignexchange reserves. Argentina. I came back and come over labor day, were supposed to be away a few weeks. Came back, whats going on . His direct quote to me is nick, i have never seen dennis so scared and all of my life. I go, what do you mean . Nick, he knows that the bank has more loans out then his magic our capital. For the first time we are in jeopardy. So i will stop there and if you want what happens after that. Did morgan along with everyone else, that caught a lot of people by surprise what happened with the developing countries, but was not a mistake did they do something they wouldnt have done in the old days . Did it take risks you normally wouldnt have done . Was it a mistake or was that was just where the business was and you kind of take your chances and hope it works out well . That is a great question, and the answer is yes. What i mean by that is, you are in a situation where all of your competitors are putting money in hand over fist. And making money. They are making money. You earn much more in the wake of the spread that you did lending to corporations or anywhere else. You have to do it for competitive reasons. That wasnt the problem. I think that the problem and ai think this would come back to haunt preston was a revered leader. How did you get to the situation where you allowed your capital to match what youre loans were . Salt wasnt that you made the loans. It was you took too much risk. That was the mistake. How did morgan come out of it. Morgan did have the strongest Balance Sheet of any of the majors. Preston sprung into action and said okay, we are in a crisis. We have got to keep the system together. Wike did, morgan came up with a strategy called managed lending. This means if everybody gets scared, the bank holds the money, then the Banking System goes belly up. You have to keep everybody in the syndicates come to basically morgan was calling the shots along with city. Been morgan actually even worked with Deutsche Bank ceo to make sure that the european institutions would keep it going. So bottom line is, preston stepped into the breach once again to save the system. Morgan emerged in better shape than its competitors because it wasnt as aggressive. It had a better Balance Sheet. But i would argue a change press tends decisionmaking. He became more tentative as he had to contemplate prestons have to change the Business Model because the country, the multinational corporations are tapping into the commercial paper market and the bond market. Our Business Model has to be changed. He knew that. That was the catalyst you write about in the book. Explain how the Business Model was changed which then led to a completely different morgan when you got back into morgan in 1995. First of all again, so we are clear, i mentioned morgan was a wholesale bank. Explained for people who are not banking what is wholesale banking. Wholesale bank, it doesnt have a lot of branches, it doesnt make consumer loans. That is called Retail Banking come individuals. So how does morgan fund itself . Basically it borrowed in the Capital Markets. Morgan was adept at that. Morgan then, to the extent it was making loans, it was to the elite corporations. As they say now theyre in the situation of saying morgan, we love you but we can raise money cheaper. Lets intermediate. The business changed a lot. Right. Preston, what does he know and what does he decide to do and not to do . Basically he says we have to reinvent ourselves to make us more valuable to our corporate clients. We had to get into the underwriting business and Investment Banking business. Hey, great, why dont we just merge with our old partner, morgan stanley. Guess what, weve got classic geek of us that do that. Wasnt repealed until 93. Yes. Basically what he does is he says okay but where can we underwrite the securities legally . Basically morgan started building out securities platform in london and thats that was gaining the expertise. You say you need for customers. You want to go retail . No, not going to happen. This firm in its entire history never was in the retail market. This firm in the postwar history at one merger with guaranteed Trust Company in 1959. And guess what. It didnt go after guaranteed trust. The board said morgan, would you take us over . That was their experience. So they are not going to do return. The bottom line was what was unique that i talk about is morgan says we are going to get into securities and Investment Banking. We will do it from scratch nobody else tried it that way. Morgan did it its way. Let me ask you to come back to the retail piece. There was an opportunity to buy citibank, right . Yes. In your book you say it was a mistake, that it did not, in fact, which would have given them a Retail Business as well. Do you think them not getting into the Retail Business was a mistake earlier on . I would say i think they shouldve been been open to it but i argue actually that not taking a major stake in citi, they were given the opportunity to buy 10 of citi and have some managerial oversight of citi. This was 199091. The reason i wanted to investigate this was again when i talk to my morgan friends and said what could we have done differently . Everybody said we blew it. We had a chance to gain a major stake in our principal competitor. When i looked into it though what i realized was, first of all, why did they do it . I think there were two reasons. One, morgan simply felt that its management, preston and weatherstone, without any experience in this and now were going to get involved, were just not comfortable. But i think the second point and the reason i cut them some slack is, go back to Corporate Culture. I was telling you salomon and morgan were night and day. Morgan in citi were two polar opposite cultures, and the whole Business Strategy was completely different. So my conclusion, they worried they might not be able to control what was happening in citibank. In the book i tried to argue that it was not a mistake to acquire citi but i do argue that morgan at other opportunities that would not have required it to go into Retail Banking. I believe those with and missed opportunities, and the one ive like in particular that i think was state bank because it couldnt expand in the presence and asset management, private banking, global. This could have beefed up morgan for the expansion in the securities. Nick, do you think morgan, again in the early days, under lou preston and also dennis weatherstone, that the basically sacrificed Business Opportunities in order to preserve the culture . The backdrop on all of this was that there was a tremendous amount of change and turmoil in the Banking Industry. There were mergers happening come megamergers happening left and right. As you said, they wanted to build businesses from scratch. Was that the reason . And was that a mistake . Did they really come was going independent, with those days over . Yes. And thats the question i struggle with. I i wish i could talk to both press and weatherstone but, unfortunately, [inaudible] my take is that they would say that they were worried about the loss of this culture that they revered, that the rankandfie revered. So the question is, was it an excuse or inaction . I have a friend of mine in private bank, a lot younger fellow and i was telling him, and he said to me, nick, the problem was the culture. So what is he saying . Those of us who grew up in the asean regime, the way of doing business come he grew up in a completely different era. He is basically saying that morgan is behind the times. So i am kind of in the middle because i love the culture. I wish you could still be there but it cant. So what changed, when you went back to 1995, how had the culture changed . Heres the way i think about it. Think of it from preston and weatherstone. What were the challenges they faced . If were going to get from scratch come we are not going to go out and acquire outside expertise here the first thing i have to say is take bankers who are good at assessing credit risk and give them and we have Training Program spirit we are going to teach them to understand Capital Markets and securities transactions. Thats a tall order. Think of it, when i was at morgan the first two of duty. Nobody wanted to leave morgan. Why not . Nick, we had something special. Okay. That was the old morgan. So what i am basically saying is that now that you have the strength of training bankers, not all of the make the cut. The first time in history morgan is basically saying to some of the bankers, sorry, but we are moving in a different direction. You are being escorted out the door. Yes. Number two, now this is what you see in all Investment Banks now ive got bankers and i have traitors because we want to get more active in the securities world. Guess what. They dont mix. Even if i dont want a culture clash haddock about this . The third in the last thing that really matters is compensation. In the old system one of the fiddles that was a ahead at Jpmorgan Securities said the childs were going to face is if you have two people working together and you give them a differential 10,000, thats not going to create a problem. Give them 100,000 100,000 or, and that was again the issue that you with from people saying i dont care about money, to pay, the guy sitting next to me just make x amount more than i did. Those with the challenges i suspect in 19952003 when you were there back at morgan, then was the handwriting on the wall that a merger had to happen . Chase took over, acquired jpmorgan. I actually read the New York Times article about it dated september 14, 2000. Was the handwriting on the wall . 1995 absolute not. The clearest indication is how did i wind up getting back to morgan . I was off wall street for three years. While i was in london a door opens. The person i used to support head the asiapacific says what do you do . Lo and behold hes telling me hes going to hit the private bank come looking for bank still be interested. I was at a stage where i missed morgan. If i had known then it was about to be required he would have second thoughts come but no, no way. The only thing i would say, consuelo, was there were like little tremors. Like you have an earthquake and you get tremors. What was one of the tremors . I remember january 1995 in vac. It really feels good. Then all of a sudden over the loudspeaker, the head of equities, and wonderful man, announces that today were going to have to announce layoffs because of redundancy. We discussed through this change our culture . The obvious answer was possibly. But we really do not have control. So what im saying is that was the first symbol. If you go to put in context. Lets do the preston era, 19801990. Morgan is at the top i mean, it is in the best shape of the money system. If you go to the weatherstone years, making 951994, i would say the competition 19951994 they had been hurt not just by loans but by commercial Real Estate Lending in the early 90s. All of a sudden they are getting through that so now youre starting to face more serious competition just when the tech bubble, the tech boom is taking place. What i would say is morgan gets off to a slow start in understanding the implications of the tech policy change. So the competition starts to move ahead. Thats what we are observing in. But if you said are you going to be acquired . I wouldnt have said anything may be beginning by 1999, you start to sense that the firms probability is lagging the competition, behind the scenes discussions are taking place with morgan and even goldman sachs. Theres even, it was interesting, a colleague of mine said chase and even approached morgan, and again morgan is a 1990 says were not interested in retail. So whats happening behind the scenes, those of us [inaudible] so was there a catalyst for the merger or was it just again this kind of trip drip, drip of lagging performance in recognition in order to continue that it needed another, a Strong Partner and to diversify . And i think it was the latter. I think by then the chairman of the ceo, sandy, had an incredible pressure from the board because they were observing that we were lagging. And again i want to be clear. Morgan made there was managing directors meeting in 2000, and basically the message was have come a long way, lets say football game. Weve gone from our 20yard line down to the red zone. We are close. He means in terms of becoming [inaudible] but we have not crossed the goal. And bigmoney, you had to get the top three. Those are the guys making money hand over fist. Youre doing okay. Underwriting securities. Yes. So what they announced, and this is where the rank and file realized, was a now announced we are going to have this new plan thats going to get us into wealth management. In other words, for the first time in history use the morgan name and attract customers that before we were not interested in. Opened the doors to the private closet. Waiting to get into jpmorgan. When this happens, to remember, and the management actually took and made a mistake in never ever, ever take a vote where its anonymous so people, the managing directors, do you thk this strategy is going to work . Overwhelmingly said no. Management i think was shocked with the answer. Afterwards, those of us in the room all said, oh, my god. As we were thinking it but we were never discussing openly. So basically from the time of that meeting i would say the die was cast. Nine months later the rumors were that it was either going to be Deutsche Bank, because would close relation with Deutsche Bank come or it would be chase. So for my own personal perspective i was pleased with chase because i had friends there. Whats interesting again going back to the New York Times article in september of 2000, the headline was is chased driving to turn himself into a Global Financial powerhouse . Acquisition of morgan could sharply accelerate that process. Did it . The answer is yes, but with why. Lets go over that. From chases perspective what made morgan interesting is that it had built up by then a very good capability and security and Investment Banking. Chase i dont want to say was an internet but im saying really chases that work was predominantly retail. Its the idea of the food market supermarket where you can do onestop shopping. Guess what. Thats a nice concept. I have never seen it work. Travelers and citi try to do. Sandy later said mistake. So could they pull it off . So basically my story is, who is the ultimate the real Management Team came from chemical bank. Go back, i didnt even realize this myself. You go back and say, pretty much by 1990 we were down to five banks. But you had chemical acquires manufacturers hanover. And then it acquires chase. Chemical was good at acquisitions. They didnt have hang up hey, chase is the better known name. Take the chase name. Thats how chase acquires mocha and to you create Jpmorgan Chase for the jpmorgan was considered the institutional side, chase was considered the retail. So that was the ideal. The only thing, how did it start off. It didnt start off well. The merging of the Corporate Cultures. If you were for morgan, morgan doesnt want to be acquired by anyone. And then chase is more bureaucratic than morgan. Morgan is more elite. The rap on chase is those morgan people are supremely arrogant. And i used to see this like, i just want to get my job done. A little bit truth to both sides and both impressions. Yes, yes. Cant we all get along . But the bottom line is, for chase they had thought acquisitions were easy. They never confronted this situation. It wasnt until jamie dimon comes in at all of a sudden you turn it around from a troubled merger to a big success. Im going to give William Harrison who is ego at the time some quite as well because he saw the opportunity there, and when jamie came in in 2003, rings are already progressing. I will say that bill harrison also was a legitimate American Finance come on attempt a couple years ago as an outstanding financial leader, which he was. But jamie came in with the acquisition of tank one, right, i chase . Explain just how he really, the revival of morgan, highly orchestrated that. How do you describe his success . What did he do right . First of all i would say the thing he had going for him was thinking working with sandy. He didnt have that hanging over culture. And sandy culture was completely different. Big difference. Jamie dimon, he wasnt hes a pragmatist and weve got to get the job done. Really based on this i would love to have the opportunity to interview him but i didnt because of covid. What i did do was read all of the morgan annual reports from the time he took over. Heres my take. I talked to friends of morgan and said what makes him different . They said go back to the first question. What was the role of the morgan chairman steele in the good old days . The role was just make sure the bank continues to be and well oiled machine. By the way, if theres a crisis, play the role of the policymaker. Okay, preston had a real issue. So now you go and you say with the jamie dimon. I think number one he is a strategic thinker. He understands whats happening in the industries we understand the big picture. But hes also a very analytic into the weeds. He will go and have this information system, we are losing money here. Morgan never had a leader that combined both strategic and the very detail orientation. But i honestly think that really in the end, i read through the annual report when it took over in 2005 in 2005 and basically his message was, look, theres risk out, and the firm thats going to do best is one that understands the risk. Guess what. We have a fortress Balance Sheet. He inherited that. We have strong capability and security. We are willing to diversify, and some of that was due to the acquisition with morgan. But my argument is when the financial crisis it can remember, citibank got into deep problems. Morgan, all of a sudden you are corporations, you had individuals, i want safety come was the safest place to be . I really think that from the perspective i would argue Jpmorgan Chase was a winner of the financial crisis. I am looking at the watch here and in no david cowen and donna are going to have some questions for us as well from our audience. So whenever they want to chime in. David, do you have some questions . I have lots more to talk to nick about. Your questions are fantastic. Feel free to chime in and donna will assist is welcome and thank you nick here first question comes from tom herman and he says if you could interview jpmorgan, what would you ask them that you could learn from your Archival Research . I will add, maybe what would you told him from your own research . Its a great question. I feel as a say, again, the people that were in the room, and i am saying lou cerrotta, dennis, sandy, i wouldve just said okay, heres my hypothesis, is that morgan did a lot of things right, and morgan was served by its inherent conservatism, and thats why really as i say it emerge from developing countries that crisis in better shape. But at some stage when you know you have to make changes, were you too conservative . And should you have perhaps with a bit of hindsight considered making not the big acquisition, not citi, but making the targeted acquisition . Id like to hear their answer to it rather than the hypothesizing about it. And i have to just say, tom herman is a a former colleaguef mine at the wall street journal, so thanks, tom, for the excellent question. Im looking, Corporate Culture matters a lot to me. Came from. Jpmorgan junior said first class business in a firstclass way. At Jpmorgan Chase it is similar in that we aim to be the most respected Financial Service from the world serving corporations and individuals in 100 countries but this is what they say. It is a new twist was never expect to be best in class every year in every business but we wait a minute. Something, we will really compare with our best in class peers, we will regularly compare with our best in class peers. The goal is still there but not quite as perfect. Is that another reason for success in this very imperfect world where you are in a global world, tremendous competition, turbulence from unregulated industries in the shadow Banking System is used. Is that a better kind of motto for today . I think today, the way i think about it is lets do the industry. Lets talk about the industry. The Banking Industry when it started in 1980 there were 15,000 commercial banks. Where are we, at the time of jpmorgans merger, there were three banks like wells fargo. Where we today have six Financial Institutions, throw in morgan and goldman stanley, the sixthlargest institutions, 60 , so that has raised two question. Are they too big to fail . I would argue still a challenge for the system. Of the majors, morgan is rocksolid. That is one of the advantages it has today on the arrival Balance Sheet. The second issue is too big to manage. Great question. That is the metric i tried to look at. You know, if you look at the last two decades how many millions of dollars a lot of that didnt come through the Global Financial crisis but even on this metric, go back to jpmorgan and say they have many of the attributes you want, capable people, strong risk but even the great jpmorgan, caught up with vibrations, a week or so ago, nearly 1 billion relating to trading in gold and futures etc. The business, you cant be on top of everything. I understand all that. The difference is when i joined jpmorgan there was nothing called compliance. Think of that. Back to jpmorgan, basically what j. P. Morgan junior said when being attacked by congress, a banker is good and honest, distrust. If you dont have that nobody wants to deal with it. Do you have a question . From the audience, they are referencing how you mentioned if something went wrong in the market the fed would talk first to jpmorgans ceo and that was still happening in 2008 but based on your understanding of history now that the fed has found the magic money tree and is offering funds directly to suvs Money Market Fund and maybe Digital Currency should we still think of jpmorgan and its peers as systemically important institutions . Very good question. To me, you are raising two good points. When i got into this issue, my boss at Salomon Brothers is in the camp that banks will be too concentrated and too much risk so he believes it is wise to break divest them of some of their responsibilities so whether it is too big to fail or too big to bail it is a but the countermessage is we are competing globally. If we want to be competitive we need to have a view, in the united states, he left the argument. From that perspective, not necessarily that you have to break up the banks but you have to regulate the banks so in the end, hate to admit it but on that issue i am torn on the right Public Policy response. One of the parts of the question that donna asked as far as does the fed need to call Jpmorgan Chase anymore . The answer to that is of course. Jpmorgan, i would argue today, jpmorgan is the most Influential Bank in the world. The period i had a chip on my shoulder, the late 1990s, who was getting the first call. It wasnt morgan, it wasnt goldman sachs. Goldman sachs officials in the administration. To accept it. What i was saying, the last thing is the future of jpmorgan, what is the future after jamie dimon, he did a harmless job but what would it be like after . Answers that it is a very strong reason to challenge that, that is me. On the same topic about glasssteagall going away, brought back the question should be a separation between commercial banking and Investment Bank . I would say on that you can make the theoretical case, there is no Investment Banks left. It has become a moot point. Was i would say, let me go back, with paul volcker, paul volcker would talk, the president would be lobbying, make an exception, in prestons world, the investment is are you a retail bank you shouldnt be an Investment Bank. That is the argument, the retail banks stop security. That was if you like the reason for separation. And that is what the division would have looked like. That of the bottom line is the question right now. I will jump in with the question from Charlie Dreyfus reflecting on the fact that jpmorgan was the leader in growth stock investing funds in the 70s. It got hurt, did they ever recover from that merger . Reporter what about nick . The fabulous track record. You have good questions. Here is my take. Jpmorgan Investment Bankers, you are absolutely correct the mistake was being too concentrated and when the second shot hit, was very sensible and said we made a mistake. The Investment Management became the new gospel, diversification. It played to the screen, people, process, their argument to go to the bottom and consistency. Still commanded a bulk of the defined benefit. They lagged, didnt have a big mutual fund, today they built that up, one of the things that cause them to lose some standards. Reporter i will close in a phenomenal our, sorry we couldnt get to all of your questions so again, special thanks, we will be back this thursday same time when Larry Cunningham with his latest book about berkshire hathaway. It is supposed to be out. If you can preorder on amazon. Cant wait to get my hands on a hard copy, looking forward to it, thank you. By. Weeknights, featuring booktv programs as a preview of what is available every weekend on cspan2. Tonight we focus on neuroscience and healthcare beginning with David Eagleman in his book live wired, reagan, bottle of lies and the double x brain taking place at 8 00 pm eastern. You are watching booktv on cspan2. Every week in the latest nonfiction books and authors, created by americas Cable Television company and brought to you by your television provider. Today, senator angus king joined the policy center during the pandemic. What is ahead for the technology. Congressman jim banks of indiana and the molten talked about the recent Task Force Report including the need to invest in Artificial Intelligence illuminate legacy defense systems. This is 45 minutes. Welcome to the hudson institute, director of the