Transcripts For CSPAN2 Mitchell 20240703

Livingston award for International Reporting and the winship penn new england award for nonfiction. He is a professor of journalism at boston. He joined in conversation tonight by writer activist and educator omara kodali. She is the author of several books, including her acclaimed novel no crowd the daughter of couple river before leaving afghanistan. She started, she taught at gaja stand university in kabul, worked in two government administrations as a lifelong activist and a defender of womens rights. She awarded the malalai medal of guinness highest civilian honor for exceptional bravery. Tonight, speakers are here to discuss the secret gate. A true story of courage and sacrifice during the collapse of afghanistan, this thrilling, emotional of a young mans courage and a and son skin of the teeth escape from a homeland that is no longer their own is called by karen abbott, New York Times bestselling author a triumph of narrative nonfiction writing that Mitchell Zuckoff reveals the chaos of the us departure from afghanistan with pulse pounding urgency and heart rendering and tell you were so pleased to host this event here at Central Public Library at the cambridge public library. Please join me in welcoming and amita cuddy. Thank you, jasmine much. I also would be remiss if i didnt also mention that we were also joined today by sea of ash, who is elmira sun, who plays an essential it was a central character. Central subject of the book as well. So im so happy hes here as well well. Im going to digress little just because that introduction alone when you when you hear about america, you can immediately understand why she was she had a target on her back as soon as the taliban returned to kabul. If write a book called the dancing in the mosque. You know if youre a fundamentalist, you dont even have to crack the spine of that book to say this is an infidel, this is a person who is a threat to our version of the world and so her bravery i just going to start there that her bravery runs through every page of this book and has been such a privilege for me to get to know and to to share with readers in this book. Let me back up for a minute, though, if i may. So when i started as a reporter a very long time ago, there was newsroom shorthand for a story that was so far away. So outside of readers interest that we they could we couldnt possibly cover it at the globe or wherever. And believe it or not, that shorthand was one word thats afghanis. And that was meant to just everything that was so of our in our sphere of interest or influence. Now, i dont go that far. Im not that old. Obviously, if we just back 40 years and you know, interested gliomas life sort of tracks much of the modern history afghanistan of the russian invasion when she was a girl and then of course the return of the taliban prior to 911 and the rise the taliban and their support for al qaida and then 911 and then the American Invasion in the immediate aftermath of afghanistan pardon me of 911 but im not going to tell that whole thats thats somebody elses book but where i would like to start just to sort of place us in space and time is actually in february of 2020 that really kicks off of these events. Thats the doha agreement. Thats the agreement that the Trump Administration enters into for the withdrawal of the last american troops after oh, at that point almost 20 years in. And it was a terrible deal. It was a horrible deal. It first just structurally excluded the elected government, the legitimate Afghan Government that was supposed to be our partner. And it negotiated directly with the taliban and so of course that involved and empowered the taliban to do exactly what they did. The minute that agreement was reached was to start increasing its attacks and its attempts to to take over larger parts of afghanistan it also triggered the release. 5000 taliban troops from prison, who, of course, immediately the fight so they were bolstered in terms of and in terms of a terrible deal. By the time Joe Biden Took Office in january of 2021, the taliban was stronger than it had been since we entered the country or since we actually since we routed them. We the American Military in. Of 2012, zero and one. So the taliban ascendant now. They at that point contested or controlled half of afghanistan in january of 2021. But and we can talk ill be happy to. But. Joe biden inherited a terrible from the Trump Administration. It a terrible hand but he chose to play it and there was as america told me at one point when she experienced some of the that well talk about tonight america had a deadline america did not have a and so much humanitarian suffering resulted from that simple fact. So theres lot of blame to go around. But in the lead up to the events that i really this book covers entirely august 2021. And at that point almost on a daily basis the taliban seem to be getting stronger as we pulled back as we left bases as we the American Military call it we as the United States removed itself from the ground. It was no longer facts on the ground preventing. The taliban from moving closer and closer and one after another. There are 34 provinces in afghanistan. One after another provinces started to fall. And omara would be on the phone to her father in the province in herat, which is about 500 miles outside away from kabul and on the iran border, and would be hearing gunshots and gunfire. And it was clear and people in kabul were denying what was happening. But she could hear for herself on her phone calls to her father. The taliban was challenging afghan army. And so by that point, no one really expected official really expected the taliban to return to kabul or certainly not that quickly, maybe in three months, maybe in six months was the the all the intelligence estimates and they were wrong. And as the calendar turned to of 2021 city after city started fall province after province numerous in kandahar herat one after another. And they kept moving closer and closer to where ceviche omara were, where the city of, 4 Million People, four and a half Million People of kabul, which was the center of the government, which is the center, the military, where supposedly the 300,000 or so afghan army members who had been trained and equipped by american and nato forces were ready to defend that. Maybe it would take years, or certainly to get there, but obviously not what happened into this mix come the way i comes the way i try to tell stories now i could tell you that story and i could tell you the number is 124,000 people trying to, you know, an airlift, tens of thousands of soldiers, all you know, i can give you all the numbers, chapter and verse, but the way i try to tell this story in the way i hope you sort of appreciate it is by getting to know a few individual souls who are caught in the and because hes not here this book really focuses around those two and really ceviche is the third but primarily omara and sam aaronson a, Young American diplomat who volunteers when the chaos is beginning when everythings starts going sideways, when the taliban is rushing into the gates of kabul and rushing to the president ial palace is a junior american diplomat at home in washington on leave. After two years in nigeria, he has no particular knowledge of afghanistan. He has no particular understand of this place or of these of the people of afghanistan. But he has this unusual combination of ambition and altruism and also i would say an allergic an allergy to inaction and inactivity and that combination makes him put his hand up and say his bosses at the state department go, ill help you look like youre trouble over there. And to his shock, his surprise, they say, sure, sam, come on, get on a plane. And he doesnt. He swears his brother to secrecy. He swears wife to secrecy, that hes not going to tell his parents that hes going over there. 31 year old young diplomat, fairly newly married. He does have some unusual background for a diplomat. He is actually he was trained as a department bodyguard before he put on the Brooks Brothers suit, the sort of young diplomat. So he had some high threat training, which i think is probably why they did send him over when he volunteered. But his wife, lianna, made him make three promises that, a, he wouldnt leave the airport. B, he wouldnt anything unnecessarily dangerous. And three, the most of all, he wouldnt be a hero. And its not a spoiler to tell you hes not going to keep those. So sam gets to and sam gets to kabul. And in the midst of that, there are the scenes that you saw on television. Tens of thousands of people who remember when the taliban was in power in afghanistan, rushing to the airport saying, i have to leave, i have to get my family out. Many of them had helped with the American Military presence they were they served as translator, they served as interpret. They some fought in the military in the Afghan Military with the americans. And they feared death or some kind of terrible retaliation and. These are people who remember the taliban. This was in their lifetime. They remember the repression of women and girls they remember men being beaten in the streets, not having their beards long enough. And they knew how angry after 20 years of war these people were when they finally regained a authority in kabul. And so you saw those scenes. You saw men falling from the the horrible scenes, the men falling from the wings of airplanes. You saw handing babies through barbed wire to american soldiers inside the airport hoping to get them out. You saw people being crushed against the walls of the airport one person in that aftermath of august 15th, the day that kabul fell, the afghan army dissolved on contract on contact. And the afghan basically disappeared into a helicopter with the president ghani to his back to stand one person who was not at the or rushing to the the gates of, the airport is with us tonight. And so its my now to talk with omara about that experience the decision she made and the process she went through, which is really in many ways at the heart of this book. Thank you. Thank you so much. This is on this on no, of course not. Here we go. Here we go. There, go. Think. There it is. Hi. Hi. Its always to see you. Thank you so much. I hope i set the scene accurately. Would you start by telling us your reaction to the talibans return . Kabul. Hi, everyone. At first i should say its a big honor. Such a honor for me to be with Mitchell Zuckoff in the same state. Its a you. You have it is a such an honor to be with Mitchell Zuckoff in the same stage. Thank you so much for bringing this story and. I think we need to know a little more about afghanistan and whats happened. Its very for me as afghan to see. For me everything like a gunshot. Sorry. Its very hard and painful for me to see how soon the afghan story is getting forgotten here. One near to 14 Million People in afghanistan is from all that big decision. So its also hard for me to speak about afghanistan at the same time, fighting with my tears so help me to dont cry and speak. Thank you. Of that was of wonderful. I read the book and then me and two of us to have i couldnt not couldnt he didnt want to read the chapter that is belong to us because. This was painful for him and in some chapters metal. I speak about the books about the i spoke about the his take a total that he called him sanji but really loved to read some chapter because he didnt know about his story who is some and during the book we know him very bit. So for me what the reaction when i saw taliban at the first i didnt i want to say i didnt fear them because i lived them in 1996 till 2000. I lived on the rebel camp for and year six yet. So the most painful rule t the taliban do is that they were covered. Woman with the burqa. So they did it with me before. And i see them too scared again. I didnt escape from balkh. I knew how to even under the under how i leave with a book. But the most thing that i could about taliban was when they i conquered afghanistan in 1996. In 1996, they were not wild like now because at that time, those days, they just come and just because we had the civil war, they bring a. End point to the civil war and they started to have their government. So they didnt show their brutally to the people like me or maybe we see it because there wasnt a you know, any needs and media so maybe didnt see it enough. Yes they closed the school. We didnt we as a woman didnt allowed to go to a street without mariam even we we did not allowed to see a man doctor but we didnt see dads they cut the people their half of the body. Maybe there wasnt enough medical at that time. It but after 20 years fight with the Afghan Government and us soldier in afghanistan, they showed all their face of themselves. They came to hospitals. They come to university. They came to the school and they just killed people. Hundreds and hundreds of people, let alone the battlefield. I dont speak about because we know they just our soldiers. I guess could from that they wanted to take the revenge from people because the people of afghanistan and the government had the operation and this collaboration with the us government. So now the government the u. S. Wanted to leave afghanistan and surrounded to people to taliban and they take the revenge and they will take the revenge from and people like me, i knew that and i knew that they dont have any mercy, any person. We had this experience after 2001. We didnt had it before. And you saw you saw what they in these 20 years. So why didnt you try to leave immediately . You know, you just saw the airport. And the people who try to came out of afghanistan didnt see the people who wanted to stay in afghanistan. You are speaking about for 30 Million People. But in airport, finally, you can see every day, two or 3000 or even 4000, 5000 people. What about others . We dont even speak about 1 million. There was many people who built, rebuilt. I came from a tolerant country. We live, lived our home times. I one times my mom make a curtain from for us to make a private with his dress. With her dress. So rebuilt and rebuilt our house why we should live it easily not easy to be a homeless. So i wanted to stay to have my life. I wanted to have life. I think thats such an important that i when ive to people a little bit about this book people have asked me why didnt she just immediately leave. And my is a version of that having come to know america youre not talking about people who lost everything in an earthquake and they have nothing but the clothes on their back. This is a woman embodied everything that we for 20 years the United States said we wanted for afghan women. She was accomplished she had regain custody after. A complicated divorce. Shed regain custody of three of us. She had a beautiful apartment overlooking kabul university. She was celebrated an author. She was. She had established a place in her world and was advocating on behalf of afghan women. And correct me. Stop me if i say anything. Not true. Planning to spend the rest of your life doing . That and building on what you had created out of nothing. Yeah. Its not easy to. Leave all those in one minute and decided to be nobody. What did your mother tell you . About what it is to be a refugee . Exactly. Came to my for the first time, then was near to my son. Age when. I went to iran. My father and mother. My father fought with the russian soldier for seven or six year, six years, seven years. And finally, because the family lost a lot men. My grandfather decided to say, okay, we should keep some this men for the family and my grandfather sent my father me and my siblings to the border region and just waiting for for a while finishing afghanistan. He still has me after ten years a and i remember that they together about the immigration immigrant being an immigrant and ask for my mother whats the meaning of immigrant. I just thought about my grandfather that i loved him and i loved him and lived. Lived, lived him, left him alone. Behind is happened in my life many time and it was not easy and its not right now easy. So my mother told me that immigrate is means to die alone. And i. I grew up with the traditions to have many people in our to have many people when we are in a funeral around outside, to have many people in. We have a new house. So trying. Its not easy to be a stranger, a foreign country, and to die alone. Thats what it means. So as this is all happening and and the chaos happening all around kabul. And you witness it and you see it when you go out into the streets, when go to the park, when you go to the the the neighborhoods that you loved where you and see of ash would had sort of special places to to get coffee or to get drinks and sweets and yet and and you continue to resist as a Network Grows up around you. So as i describe the book theres an Organization Called its a very shadowy organization. It doesnt you cant find it on the web. I promise you. It took me a long time to track them down called the white scarves and they made a list of more than 3000 women who and families who they believed were in special peril. Amaras name was on the first 20 of that list. That was the level of fear they had for her. And around her there formed a network of people starting or were i guess maybe the of the network was her literary marley rousseff who was calling everyone she could including omari trying to convince to go and trying to convince someone to help. She called her publishers. They they were working with special forces. They were working with sort of some back channels into the state department and into the intelligence community. What made you decide to to follow . I mean, you resisted for days and days and you had fights with marley and translator zaman over. The phone. What made you finally decide to go with squash and your brother to abby gate and try get out . Yes. I tried to stay in afghanistan and i enlisted to officiate it in those days i fought with every person who tried to help out of afghanistan. I went to every tv show which invite to me and i wanted to speak because i that it will be the last time for me to speak in this country. And i knew that i should to find another way to speak. I was mad and every person tried to help me. But because i knew that they dont know what im thinking. They dont know my feeling. But finally, when the Taliban Attack afghanistan, first time my father was near to 40, he the youngest and very supportive. But then the war in 2021. My father wasnt such young like his to. 46 he people still young but in afghanistan the situation is really different and the impact of environment war economy problem. So my father is not enough or or was not enough strong to support me, you know, he told me that homemade all is not the time to be a hero. I am not. I cannot you any more. Just think about your brother. You for young brother right now i to my brother in 1996 was around ten but after all these years they were 20 to 29, 32. So the age was different and there was enough young to be as a target for taliban. When my father told me it was like at that those moment i feel that my father rejects me reject me. And it was painful. Why my father to support anymore. But i could understood. And he said it through to me that i cannot. So i had to go. I want to roll for one second because i dont want to brush past something. Omara said that i want you to miss the omara, the taliban has taken over the government and to understand the character and the bravery of this. This woman, she went on television and she went to the studios of the cnn of of of afghanistan tolo tv and and spoke out and at the when she knew that the taliban did not want hear from women certainly did not want to hear the voice of a woman who had written a book called dancing in the mosque and but she went several times because. She didnt want women to be at this moment. She wanted to make sure that the voices of women were still being heard. And so you reference that. But i want to make sure people really get that. That was so remarkable to me that this wasnt just focused on on how do i stay but how do i continue to advocate for the women of this country . I remember that i called tv by tv and asked them, please invite me. Before that, i had many calls that came tv and i spoke about social issue. Thats always happened in afghanistan. I said, i them that i dont have enough time. I cannot or some of them i chose and i did. But after the taliban take afghanistan, i to invite me. I love to, but they started to scare. They didnt want to have women anymore on their, you know, and this is all happening in such, you know, sort of moment, moment. This is were talking about a few days from from we were talking about a period from basically august 15th to, you know, but the time when america went with her brother, one of her younger brothers, and tried to abbey gate to try and get out within week. Were talking about the whole up ended at them you know in that brief period and i want to sort of digress for one second and so to say theres the parallel story happening as memories stories unfolding. And thats whats happening with sam and inside the airport where this wildly outnumbered tiny Skeleton Crew of state Department Officials trying to process tens of thousands people a day and make sure that the people who were coming in and being put on planes are the ones who are qualified. And what sam keeps experiencing is that nothing makes sense. And the bureaucracy messed up. And one day one set of people qualify. And the next day a different set of people. And he experiencing at this moment, really a crisis of conscience, because he was tearing families like omeros, where if you brought in somebody, is part of your extended family. If you qualified because you were a the holder of a special visa for someone who had helped American Military. You couldnt bring your uncle or your cousin, even though they were basically part of your immediate family. Afghanistan, the way that worked. Those are sort of immediate family members. Way omara considers her cousins. She when we first started talking, i didnt understand because she would talk about her cousins like. They were her brothers. And i came to understand. But that was those are the people sam was being forced to rip apart. And send half in one direction and half in direction where one was saved and was thrown out of the airport. And those you with the historical bent can imagine the historical sort of reference that im making there to two lines of people being, you know, separated and one in the good line and one in the bad line. And that was in the back of sams mind, who had grown up holocaust stories and knew the story of hiram bingham, a legendary state Department Diplomat in marseilles, who did the right thing and created visas for about. 2500 who were trying to escape france in the holocaust. He that story. But he also knew that binghams career was destroyed by it and sam was ambitious, as i said, and sam was worried and hopeful that this would turn into a fast track. And he saw himself now being in violation every time. He tried to help someone. He to help. And as this is happening, learns of something called glory gate, which we call the secret gate. It is a secret gate. A back door to the airport, effectively, because the tens of thousands of afghans who are crushing against the main gates and nobody can get in. The cia with help from the delta force and, the zero units they sort of afghan fighters created this back door that nobody knew about at the far western edge of the airport where they could bring in intelligence assets, high value individuals. They called them american citizens and green card holders and as soon as sam figured that out, he realized he needed to find a way to to put it to use. And he kind of got kind of fell into it at first. But once he started using the secret gate glory gate to people, he realized he couldnt stop and he enlisted a young afghan name, assad durrani, who is another hero of this. And with assad started people in. Now you go to abbey gate in the days the suicide bombing there and you and see ash and you have a terrible experience there. Can you tell us a little that. We went because i wanted to help my brother and my son i dont remember that in my life i took a decision for myself. I always be a sister. Theres a father and a at the end, a mother. And its hard especially in afghanistan and situation out of that countrys hard. My brother and my they really wanted better. They wanted to leave afghanistan. My brother was had a job in president l palace in kabul so he was really at the target and. My son started escape from the taliban because. He knew everything about taliban through media and. I couldnt control it because the media always had some news about the taliban. Even they spoke and they rescued. So they knew that. And i knew them. For the first time when we went. I ask you if before we leave the house, i ask asked that be brave me and dont ask. And he said okay, dont worry and we take a back beat ourselves some dress or some other stuff, some books even for simple. And but when we arrived we saw such a different picture of the airport saw it through the media. Those days. But it was a totally different you can feel all that disaster. You can see all of that hopeless and the people who just try to be close to one of the gate and there was Shorty Shorty lashing people. Talaga it was interesting for us because we have seen twinning. Taliban wanted to kill american soldier, but that those days they just try to protect the soldier of an american soldier and lashing and killing people of afghanistan. So it was really, really a disaster for us. I think you stick to treatment it first you arrived. We started crying that i want to return to house and we were in the middle. The big wave of the people. We couldnt go for a forward and we couldnt even back and we just, you know, move with the wave. I just keep him in my hugs and him to be brave but i wasnt even brave at this moment. Not just a taliban because of this big wave of the people we sheltered the car. But there was a lot of shooting. I lost my young aunt and one of these big shooting when the soldiers and sara zarrell. Yes. On sara, we lost her. When the russian invaded afghanistan. And so it had to very bad memory for me that i take maybe my brother or my son, even myself. So it was hard for us. And finally we returned home. And when i returned home, maybe four or five out later, i was happy. I had my home again. Many times during the days i remember dad returning home. I didnt just make my day. Even now now i want to save time for questions. Ill just say, well. First over the course of the next day or so, we had where america had been right at that place with her brother and see of us was the scene of the horrible suicide bombing that 170 or more afghan lives and 13 american servicemen and women as well. And and yet and i should. Two of her brothers and two of her cousins were there when it happened. And, you know, ill you read it in the book and that the trauma and the the the the fear in the family that ensued and yet even after that, with the urging of father, you you decided to go yet again or you to agree when when sam came into your lives through through mali, through a sort of a serendipitous. I wont give it all the way a serendipitous set of involving a former American Ambassador and an email chain that just happened to land in the inbox of this young man, sam aaronson. And ill ill ill leave it there, i guess the spoiler is that we were privileged to have them with us tonight, but how they got and what theyve been through, ill let you read for themselves, but thank you so much for sharing it. So i hope left a little of a cliffhanger. Hope but if you have any questions to address to america or to me, wed be more than happy. Yes, sir. I think im supposed to wait for. This. This fellow. Yeah. Mitch could tell us a little bit about how. Hey, yeah . How you got on to this story and. Im guessing you wrote the book without to afghanistan. So how did tell us a little bit about that. A great reporter, charlie. Thank you, charlie. Its, uh, its its its also serendipity. Luck. I did not go to afghanistan because the time i got involved all of my subjects here and so i would have been open to it had it been necessary if i could have done it safely. I got a call, um, shortly after these events from the woman i mentioned mali rosoff this literary agent just happens. Be a close friend. My former editor. Um, who they were talking, they. They recognized what happened here and that there was way to tell this story of the big story of afghanistan through the experiences of just a few people that we could revolve the world around them. Mali said to former editor claire walk tell. You know i wish you know find that guy wrote 13 hours and claire said why dont i just call him and and so the story i was i was like everybody i assume here just following along at home and watching cnn the news events and then the story fell into my lap and was as soon as i went out to to lunch with crash and omeara, who happened to be in cambridge, i just, i knew this was a story too important not to tell. This man. Thanks to you both. Um, and ive long wondered why People Choose to leave beyond the obvious from my own history. Then just the world. And you said tonight that you didnt you didnt say i left because it got so dangerous, became clear to me i had to leave. You said i left because my family me to for everybodys wellbeing and im really struck by that and wonder if you could just say more about that. Thank you. Since i born as dear baby in afghanistan i think i was like a soldier i fought all my life because i was a woman it matter it was a war or not i had a big ball because was at war. So fighting for is like normal life is no matter with the soldier of russian or in the civil war or the the taliban or with the us soldiers or with the government, or with the or mother or brother. So i raised to fight and what really normal. So i ready to fight. And i thought and i still, i think that for bring freedom we need soldier and i was one of the soldier it is to bring me big shame when i left country is my honest feeling how i cant win i take a appointment in Harvard University its a big for me i wasnt brave to enough to in my media that in my application that i have in twitter or facebook because i thought his speech came how i can say that i am in harvard while i please. 5 Million Girls cannot go to school for the basic right. They are depression from everything a social life in afghanistan. So i was ready to fight i didnt know how because was so easy so soon i was full of the. With the different emotional feeling. My dad you know im crazy crave sorrow i didnt know how but i started fight with going to too many tv station every i remember one of the tv interview from the washington it was a period on tv and they called me through skype and i started to speak. I just cried. I just cried. And one of the my brother friends just tell to my brother that if your sister cannot speak white, shes going to speak. And i said, you know, i am speaking when im crying. You should listen to it. You should see it, because it was close. Thats all i want. I start this search house by house and i couldnt free like five days ago as mitchell told you, everything changed by hours, by hours. And i couldnt was in our fair i, i didnt have that situation open to speak more freely because my father sitting in the hall living room could never told me dont speak, but i could see how he is scared because of his son life. So because of that i wanted i believe to fighting i believe to that those big slogan that the us bring to my country equality rights and human rights very big and it was like you know a very holy solid and i well i wanted to be a soldier for like anyone else. Yes, sir. War more for us. Thank both of you for all your good work. And you are. Why . Audience what . Cheer a bit. You have to neighboring countries and theres somewhat of a parallel that could be drawn in iran in the late 1970s the United States backed regime essentially crumbled and my understanding from knowing a lot of folks from iran is that the person who came from france had to assume leadership of course for many was more or less as a breath of fresh air and possibly a democratic, uh, situation would ensue. What was your if you have, you can recall what was your memory of a perilous situation in afghanistan when soviets with of course the help of American Special operations and such were uh you know defeated. What was your understanding how the population viewed ensuing regime of the taliban along those lines. Do you recall from 1996 or so and the said sure question a little more is in doing okay do you remember when when the taliban first came in 96 how people reacted to their presence in the postsoviet era. Is that fair taliban came in 1996 and we were the middle of the civil war and they were a group to getting tired from. The soviet unions invasion in and after that that four years of civil war and they said okay were to go we want to an end to war to afghanistan and the people were very happy. Why not who wanted to continue living a war time. And so we were very happy but it didnt take a long time for us, not even. Two months to understand who came. They were really like, now, right now they didnt. In 20 years it was the us that trusted taliban, the people of afghanistan knew. So i. Connected with the soldiers a day sweet union. If you repeat now at the first i wanted to say yes. People in 1996 were happy because they taught taliban is a good people and bring end to war but. After one year everything was changed or at least they were afghan. They were that you were being ruled by your. Yes. Instead, the soviets yes with your soviet puppet. Yes. Yes. Puppet came to afghanistan and really different way date rape our women. We dont speak about the rape because it speaks insult for how may they never ever ever even one time they speak what the soldier of sudan mean what they did in my country i saw i saw that they the war and if a woman in afghanistan but we we just say how many they killed is more for us to speak about that i ill just add one one thing to that and i learned this obviously from you the number of of young women who when the taliban fully were in and you realized what you were dealing with the number of women who girls who selfimmolated who themselves on fire or who who took their own lives because were suddenly unable leave their home or go to school. And were talking about in the late nineties and how you personally were became the target of, a taliban commander who decide in her teenage years. Fortunately, it didnt happen to take you for a wife. Yes. Yes. Taliban went taliban conquered afghanistan in 1996. They didnt need media. They just had they want a radio station. And its endlessly. Recite the holy book or initiative for five years. We cannot imagine five years endlessly just a Red Cross Initiative for us and people getting tired. They turn off the radio, but they they say in the tradition they say is be seen you bring the people Read Initiative with loudly you turn the radio or you just pass it but people do it even my grandmother who is easy old very tradition and religion person she always say turn on the matter of that radio soap they started to use mosque as their media and they started to make our men against women into house and they said you are we do not punish woman we punish you if we see any woman from any house, we find the man of that house and we punish them. So they had very good strategy and they had they were very successful for the i think it was after one year. Thats selfimmolation. It started in city and we were four friends and i lost three of them one by one. And one of my brother, tauber left afghanistan. Me, he was around six and one days. He asked me for any one or two self kill yourself when you wanted to put yourself on the fire because it was very normal every house had a woman who self who self only it and in our neighborhood there was a woman not in my age and maybe younger than my mom and she selfimmolated and she survived it was more horrible than to die. And we every try for her to die because it was so mad. And david it was hot. And they didnt had any air conditioning. We didnt had electricity and his body to burning with this hot bed and the family younger sister we did is called we started to you know make him make her a little cold but it doesnt happen. And we i cannot i dont know the vote that when some woman the body was get an infection and some come out of the body alive alive the was alive and the neighborhood. I started to use to days sorrow to days you know, the voice when the woman cry in the night and say, god help me. God told me, god, i cannot tolerate. And it was my life for five years. They closed all the schools and still im not surprised. The taliban, im not surprised. I knew they why they should change they just after they america invaded afghanistan, they went to return to the mountain. They didnt went to the university in the war they went to mountain and us and we do a lot of mistake a bomb bought their house and they went to take the revenge of their fathers. And you know, all this history, what they what how many mistake the us army did in afghanistan so. I watching that surprised right now is not taliban is the war behind the taliban. How is possible i want to ask i ask it tells in time in the days of myself how is possible. That 5 Million Girls cannot go to school in afghanistan just they are girl and the war this silent while the wasnt in the mountain they thought was in the Famous University and get improve and improve for their education. We are silent is not like an earthquake its just because they are women. I never ever surprised by taliban but im surprised with myself when you. Have time for one more question. I just im begging you read dancing in the mosque. Put even put the secret gate and to really understand that world it is beautifully written it is it is a magnify isnt memoir of of a time and place in the amazing of this extraordinary writer. So please please do. Yes, sir. One last question again. Thank you very much. Its. That i mean, the feeling you get when you when hear what you have said. This is so heartwarming that. You are here to say that you felt that what you saw, what youre going through. But i wish my different in the sense of all the the news from people like you were which come either in the news channels or talks or books. Its about people who were living in kabul. I want to know what it is outside when artists like that and how come we dont hear fact. I sure of course kabul is the place where people can talk english probably go to universities because are there. But what happened to people who are out hear what are their stories . I mean, we dont hear i mean, its good that we hear trudeau like for this. But what i would like to see what is that part of the story . I want to let him answer as well. But i will say there has been some brilliant reporting and theres a piece in the new yorker called the other afghanistan that did address what youre describing, where in the countryside, where the return of the taliban was not greeted the way it was or, you know, or feared the way it was in kabul. So i do believe that that some of those stories are told certainly. But but you i understand point underneath your point. I get it, sir. I am a little chief of the chief of an editor of a right now. Ravi is on in afghanistan that i have near to 15 journalists who is 15 a woman journalist who is trying to help me to bring to this story in our newspaper that is still in farsi and some english news. They work without and we dont have cell money to pay for our reporter. They are working in afghanistan and they will do everything in afghanistan from different city in afghan. As son. So we are bringing you this story but i wanted to say when the taliban is in afghanistan no matter you are very good all the school is closed no matter kabul herald production but maybe the most Different Things is economy. Maybe maybe in some city like herod mazar, kandahar. I dont want to say the economy is good the situation is better for people but i know what the meaning of being pulled in a village when the taliban is as a government because i had that experience i lived in a city when they came for first time we didnt had food for the day we never eat for those five years three time in the day we never could eat even sometimes one time i know i know the situation and they story, but the stories same and i know because have as i told you, we have many. Reporter in afghanistan a journalist. Selfimmolation i started but this time men and women is doing that the first time is not just between women and right now the news is also about men. I just want to make one more addition. One of americas brothers who fortunately now is no longer in afghanistan. Khalid was a journalist. And when he was telling stories or trying to talk, what was happening outside of of kabul, he was imprisoned for a year in the post august 21 era. He only got out what i want to say more than two months ago to much two months ago, after a year in prison. And so your point is, i think its going to take a lot to get those stories, because everybody who tries to those stories, certainly if theyre afghan are facing imprisonment or worse, is not about to telling the story is about who wanted to listen. Mm. That is very important we are not sure that not about you that you are sitting here, but when i say about the people who really interested to the true story of afghanistan after, afghanistan fall there was a press conference that joe biden and hold it and say people didnt fight for themselves and the people accepted and no quit. That was infuriating to a lot of people. I know. Thank you all so much. Thank you for coming out. Thank you for listening to america and will be around for a little if anybody has any other or books that need signing. Thank you. Thats great. I wanted i want to say excuse me just i want to say yeah. When we come to the politic is bring us shame my government for us and maybe sometimes government for you, but then we have some people like some in government is bringing on it. So i want you to clap for some. We dont have him here, but want to clap for him one