Hi, everybody. Afternoon. Im john obrien from the department of english and im happy to kick things off. Todays lecture is part of English Department lecture series known as the peters rushton seminars, a series that goes back to 1950. Its a series that included speakers such as keith brookes, randall general auden and seamus heaney. Today, were happy to welcome fred kaplan to the west oval room of the rotunda to speak on his designer Thomas Jefferson. Fred kaplan is distinguished Professor Emeritus of english at Queens College and the Graduate Center of the City University of new york. A scholar in century literature, kaplan has become best known as one of the most distinguished biographers of our era. He is published biographies of thomas carlyle, mark twain, henry james, charles dickens, John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln gore vidal, and now Thomas Jefferson in his masterly pen. Kaplan offers us a biography of Thomas Jefferson by giving an english professors kind attention to jeffersons written words. Jefferson only published one book in his lifetime notes on the state of virginia. But, of course, jefferson wrote consul treatises like a summary view of the rights of british north america legal briefs, memoranda the declaration of independence, and above all letters, thousands of them, which kaplan calls among his most powerful and revealing writings throughout his masterly pen, kaplan brings a skilled biographers attention to how jefferson reveals himself through his writing, often without without intending to, as kaplan says of notes on the state of virginia. Its a book about jefferson partly because jefferson did not want it to, a book about himself. The jefferson we meet here is not surprisingly learned and forceful. But kaplan also shows this jefferson as a writer whos often evasive with holding anxious selfpity and inconsistent, eager to shield himself from responsibility and, blame kaplans biography also a great read in its own right. Jefferson is not the only one with a masterly panorama out here. Please join me and fred kaplan. Thank you, john. And thank you, jeff stauffer, for such a attentive and kind host and arranging my to be here and to have this occasion to talk about jefferson and an edifice that jefferson designed so i also want to thank of course, English Department and the History Department for being co host of this event, which i had an extra. Warming a welcome to virginia yesterday when i stepped off the plane and, discovered that i was in a different country from where i had departed in the morning. I had departed from east boothbay, maine and the temperature was considerably different. Jefferson hardly noticed or he didnt notice, but typically had something very interesting to say about the difference between the climate of Northern New York and the climate of new england. On the one hand and the climate of virginia on the other hand. It is the case that maybe with the exception of paris now, no matter where jefferson travel, every virginia and everything about it was always better and and again and. 1791, jefferson in with his friend and colleague james went on a combine and travel adventure but mostly political scouting trips to Northern New York and Lake Champlain in particular and into new england. When he arrived and and the Lake Champlain area he made notes about the difference in the climate between Lake Champlain, maine. Northern new york, new england and virginia. And he made it much to virginia his advantage, even at that time of the year because. He arrived in Northern New York, new england in late may, early june. And he he that the summer in Northern New York state, new england was not only hot but quote as hot as could be find and count as could be found in carolina or georgia. I, i suspect, indeed, that heat of northern climates may be more powerful than. Those of southern ones in proportion, as they shorter there is as much fever, other bilious complaints on Lake Champlain as on the swamps of carolina find nothing. Nothing anywhere else in point of climate which virginia need envy to any part the world. And i didnt quite feel that yesterday when i got off the plane, it was not quite what was was going on. And jeff well we know what was going on in jeffersons head. Of course i do i do have remark that i have some summer neighborhood neighbors and east boothbay, maine, who live a good part the year in virginia not too far from here. But they always come to maine for the summer even though jefferson thinks thought that the weather obviously in may virginia was always superior but its just an example. Jeffersons wonderful ability to evade or to twist facts or to make a point thats really about his own emotional and ideological selfinterests, even about this a priority. Virginia to or england, whether without a single. Im happy to be here even in this mild weather and say the the lovely foliage in bloom where i the grass is just about to turn green but not quite yet so of course as we all know, jefferson is our most president the most well, i take that back not almost controversy the president , almost controversial founding father, president. Right. Mostly of his relationship with slavery. He inherited the slaves he bought and sold slave after the death of. His wife, he had six children by Sally Hemings slave woman who was three quarters wife white and that the half sister there of his own wife was a part of his life that a lot of attention has been focused on recently and its certainly a poor out of his life that we now condemn or at least wish had been different. I condemn slavery so did jefferson. I dont condemn jefferson. I, i dont know that i would have done any better if i been in jeffersons position, born into his virginia and into his family. And i dont find it easy to put myself into the shoes of someone from the past and be judgmental all because i know that we are all so much a proud act of circumstance says considerably beyond our control. Jefferson was hated in his own, of course, just as to some extent hes hated now. Hes hated as a jacobean revolutionary, as a, theist as and agnostic, as a populist demagogue. He was also a president to preached against strong executive but excess, very strong executive power when he felt it was in his ideological and his view of the nations selfish to do so. For example, of course, the louisiana purchased a it was also a man who preached against and detested actually more than preached. Again, she detested a lot of the things we take for granted as desirable like banks and banking and wall street and industry any sizable way. And he certainly detested irvin ization that foul appeared of iniquity and disease ease and putrefaction that he thought of what that came to mind immediately when he thought of baltimore or philadelphia or washington and so was remarking early as you were the one city that he never had anything harsh to say against, was paris, where he spent five years and wasnt fact expecting to go back to when he returned to United States on the mission to bring his to two daughters back so that they could be brought up not as french women, but as proper a virginia lady is. And he was planning to return to to to paris unfortunately or fortunately president washington newly elected decided that he would enlist jeffries who had mixed feelings about it and was to probably remove regret his agreement to become the first United States secretary of. Well controversy all president s certainly and our attitudes are going to be divided about him and contested about him for as long as we read about it, as as we study our history. Jefferson as john eloquently remarked, gave a gave eloquent to the founding ideas of the United States, many of which are still bellwether values of this country. He helped, of course. The sentiment of rebellion, a declaration whose first paragraph became a world affirmation of personal liberty and republican government. The country would avenge embrace his proposal calls on religious liberty or on inheritance reform and a confederation. Congress. He did a herculean job. His writing talent went to great effect was used to great effect. And of course in after he became the first secretary of state skipping his unhappy presidency he a two term president of washington our first two term president adams not so one president president , one term as president and all three went in march 1801. And in came jefferson with the the notion as historians have credited him for, of intra dosing the revolution of 1801 the jeffersonian revolution. I dont quite see it that way but theres lots of room for looking at things differently as john remarked, greatest strengths was his pen. He was a reluctant and a poor public speaker. He spent more time writing and putting aside things like sleeping and in his active life he spent more time writing than in any other. And the relationship between his writing personal and his public life are a sort of an inseparable triad. He was constantly in the act, defining himself by literal. 10,000 and more letters that you referred to theres an actual account. I dont remember what it is, but it is huge, right . And in a summary view of british america and of course, notes the state of virginia, which is an book and which i had considered talking about today, but decided no, i would put probably talk about the declaration of independence because at least i would could count on some familiarity with some of the most important phrases in the declaration of independence whereas to talk about notes on the state of virginia would take me longer because i would have, in a sense more to say. But i would also have to prepare the seed ground a little more than would have to in talking about the declaration of independence to jefferson through his writings helps us get into his mind and it contributes to our understanding of his strengths and limitations and fosters in a appreciation of his role as a propaganda and test of the revolution of how he made recorded crucial aspects of the first years of our republic. It shows how jefferson wrote in different voices to different constituencies his and it also helps to enable us to see how in his later years he was a revisionist himself, attempting to do his best to both selectively select and selectively rewrite the history of the world that. He had played such an Important Role in in addition and this is terribly important to me it helps us to read and appreciate the prose of the highest literary and intellectual quality and it bookmarks jefferson i think was lincoln as a master of the english language the we all know best as the author of the declaration of independence. To me there are other writings of equal power and literary finesse. Some review which been mentioned notes on the state, virginia, which has been mentioned, of course, his first inaugural address, which isnt addressed it deserves considerable attention. His letters to his para lover, maria causeway. We dont know exactly, are they the intimacy of that love relationship . But it was not love relationship of the body it was certainly a love relation of the heart. And in his letters to maria causeway, the most famous and the longest of them is called a dialog between the head and the heart. Well, there are other wonderful and relatively under, unaddressed or unjust writings of jefferson selectively from the letters, particularly his letters, his grandchildren. Because he was a doting grandfather and had a wonderful grandfatherly voice. A few a few selections of which i will i regalia with a little later on. The im going to focus today on the declaration of independence. Of course his best known contribution to the american historical and its something were all somewhat familiar and its something that still intrigues those of who read not only the preamble but the entirety of the declaration of independence. As you know, he wrote it philadelphia. In 1776. He was a reluctant not attendee at. The Confederation Congress and june and july of 1770 said he preferred be in williamsburg where the house of burgesses burgeoning out of being the house burgesses into the Virginia State legislature and so on. In this transitional period was writing a constitution for the state of and he really wanted to be there he wanted a practice debate in the writing of that constitution. He felt himself to be a constitution maker, constitutional writer. That was something he felt destined to do. And he had already had some significant experience rewriting the laws for the state. Virginia, which had been in progress and was to then continue to be in for some for some. So he listened to debates. He hardly said a he much preferred to be in williamsburg. He wrote to williamsburg, suggesting to one of the movers and shakers in williamsburg that wanted to be a good idea for some of the virginia delegation to the confederation to be back to work on the the Virginia State constitution. And by that he meant himself and he was told, no, no, no, weve got this under control. And so on. You stay there for a while longer and well get you back to, virginia, as soon as we can. On june six,. 1776, a member of the virginia delegation, Richard Henry lay, acting on instructions, the Virginia Legislature itself stood up and the Confederation Congress proposed that the various solution declaring complete in dependance and congress immediately appointed a committee of five most members. The congress for not eager. Some were eager. Some were less eager, somewhat reconciled, etc. , to hearing that the committee of five that was nominated was lee himself course benjamin franklin, john adams, Roger ShermanRobert Livingston and Jefferson Lee was busy work on the articles of confederation racial the elderly. Franklin was the committees most famous writer and personality hed recently from london, where hed been representing pennsylvania small art craft, a tactful he wasnt interested in a writing. John adams was a passionate participant in the floor and the challenge writer. He, however, felt overburdened with Important Committee work. The other two appointments livingston from new york and sherman from canada. Kent had no special interest in or talent writers. All five, though, are of the same mind so as congress they wanted another document, this one a conclusive statement for almost every delegate already signed on to a declaration. The colonies were now independence states was to be a document justifying to the world their reasons for this extraordinary assertion was to be a collective statement intended to be signed by every delegate they all had read. Jeffersons summary view of british america. His writing talent was recognized. It helped that he was from virginia, one of the two tales that, wag the colonies dog. Every member of congress understood he would have a chance some later stage in the process to participate in revising the committees document at a later date. Adams wrote that he and jefferson had had a conversation about which one of them should write to draft each deferred to the other. Adams felt he more important work to do jefferson had no competition then no one else wanted it. Jeff ison immediately agreed to take it on its a conversation may or may not have happened, or at least the way that adams report in it some years later he viewed it as one of the greatest mistakes of his life. He would have decided differing lay if he had anticipated that its statement of First Principles would become with the preamble to the constitution and, say what . The gettysburg address, one of the three most widely quoted statements by any writer. And, of course, adams could have anticipated that at a much later date it would become one of the most constant a virtual in its claims that all men are created equal. Adams never got over it. Never got over it. Hes got about later in life. Why didnt i do it . I didnt let him do it. Yeah. Jefferson was i was pressured to get, to get, get it written quickly. There wasnt much time we dont know very much about on what days actually wrote, how much at each sitting, how many days he spent revising, what papers or book and books. He had with him. Thats partly known. He had a copy, of course, of Richard Henry lees june six declaration resolution independence. He had his copy of the draft constitution he had written before leaving williamsburg to come to philadelphia in of which you are very with that draft he hoped to get as quickly as possible to williamsburg. So his draft could become the dominant draft he had that with him and that contained a lengthy forensic indictment of george the third and an amplified list of grievances and clearly jefferson drew extensively his draft for the constitution he drew on his own as some of british america he also drew on his virginia colleague, george masons declaration of rights, which the Virginia Legislature had passed in june and which jefferson had a car of and George George masons declaration of rights had a phrase in it. Thats all most familiar, but not in its total holiday, because masons draft emphasized the life, liberty and the pursuit of property and that is an interesting change that that that is and it is of great interest of course that jefferson and his colleagues changed pursuit of property to pursuit of happiness. Jefferson and, his Confederate Congress colleagues were on the whole not all of them wealthy landowners and slave owners, gun owners, rich people on whole. And so why the change from. Property to happiness . Why speculation . Not a must, but a may as that the emphasis that they wanted, the emphasis to transcend and the limitations of class and social and wealth so on. They wanted it to be a document that didnt express self, a selfserving a but still given, assumed, but not not explicitly selfserving. Ownership of property of which they were the leading citizens, of course, of the country. Now, and jeffersons deck coloration, of course, there is a strong emphasis says on the separation from the British Empire being forced on the colonies. Not a choice that the colonies voluntarily let alone initially with any ensues. He has made. And of course the apposite words are as the committee and then the Congress Went through it sentence by sentence and with some alterations when in the course of human events it becomes necessary one people to dissolve the political bands, which have connected them with another. So this dissolution of separate John Jefferson have enforced on the colony as they hadnt thought it necessity had forced it on them and and it stopped in on them to. Assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of natures god entitle them. Now the phrase is the laws of nature and of natures god had a particular for jefferson as contemporaries. They included natural rights. It wasnt a residence. They attach to any specific theology or or body of. And it was a broad phrase that had a kind of tentative association with deism, but not with any religious sect, and not specifically even with a protestant view of the world or of a catholic view of the world, though it did, as a phrase, have a history. And that history mainly came of english history and glorious revolution of 1688 and the attempt of the the law to see aristocracy of Great Britain, to to free itself of the its considerable world on royal power. In jeffersons declaration, whoever and whatever that god is has nothing to do as i said, with any religion or theology. And to me it seems likely that jefferson, his colleagues, wanted this to be a secular a document. Most europeans and Anglo America hands would have been at a loss to defined natural rights in, a rigorous way. At best they could them in language that evaded the crucial questions. Do these natural rights, these laws of nature exist . How do you know that where they from . Who gets to define them . Who gets to them . How would different be reconciled king george and his ministers . Would had a different set of correlative terms and values to bring to bear on the language and, the issues they would have been, of course, appropriated to that great not the common is occupied. The moral and the legal high ground to different people and governments. The definitions and implementation would have from particular religious or secular histories histories. Jefferson, of course, was not a scholar in our sense interested in an fair and valid presentation of all on one hand this, and on the one hand that, unless for our way through to a consent, this conclusion his created literature a particular kind literature as, propaganda form of argument that declared truths rather than proved it. He read the most successful 18th century example of the genre. Thomas paines common sense has been recently published that had no direct influence on jeffersons lap language. Jefferson, an admirer of paine, and he was to write later that no writer has exceeded paine and is informed the reality of style and press vacuity of expression, happiness of elucidation and in simple and unassuming language. Paine directly to the american ear and heart. He is intention of, was to strengthen revolutionary morale at the very start of the war. Jeffersons immediate audience, his congressional colleagues, his wider audience was the angloamerican and european world that jefferson refers to as mankind, but particularly france. Jefferson doesnt at this time that he is going to become for five years a citizen to speak, an honorary citizen of paris. But he all his colleagues know that their chances of being successful in pledging their sacred honors in this cause of revolution, heavily dependent on getting assistance, on getting aid from france. The declaration exists. Jefferson wrote, because a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that the colonies, of course, should declare the causes which impel them to the. Needed an excuse, especially since louis, the 16th, and his ministers are over there listening. Get rid of george preserved. What about . Louis, over there. We got to be careful. And theyre being very careful about this, i think so. Its, you know, its directed towards, among others and his ministers and to all other enemies of Great Britain who are to conclude that the enemy of my enemy is, my friend. So unlike common sense. The declaration is not written to stir hearts and minds of the american soldier. Others may have had that effect some extent, but thats not why its there like the most influential sentence. The preamble states. Its a selfevident truth that all are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator. All know these words with certain unalienable rights, among them life. Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and again, this is this is an innovation, the pursuit of property and a country amongst colonies and amongst a new nation and among amongst a new nation that is become a bigger nation and a bigger and a bigger and a bigger nation. Its not the pursuit of happiness. A very hard thing to describe. So george mason is really one whos on target. Jefferson is just throwing in a really feel good word here. Happiness, as tennyson says in that lovely poem, property, property, real estate, real estate, real estate, Property Ownership are made citizenship. Property is Property Ownership is is sacred. So mission in the declaration, i think was an interest and was the interest of tact. Again is preamble rising above class issues, status issues issues, elite power and so on and and thats further emphasized by. Vi jefferson and his colleagues. It is consensus of consensus docu stating that one of the charges against the king is that he is attempting to take away our charge laws abolishing most valuable laws altering fundamental really the forms of our government. And i think that its an attempt jefferson implies to deprive of the present and future ownership of property property, property and its issue of serious concern because where does all where does jefferson and his father, jefferson and all these folks in virginia and massachusetts and so on, get their legal right to ownership of this property and . Most cases, it comes from royal charters. Well, theres variations on that. There are purchases this that and the other thing. But it comes from royal charter. So what were saying now is, hey, we are were saying as a sort of i dont know expression and aggressive but well phrase theft your even we are we were on the spot of it and on your behalf we taking over ownership of all this property that any colonists are now to be americans stands on and he and his contemporaries are tearing up the charters which they had previously held to build to be law. Virginia no longer belong to the crown. Nice. You know, its a nice, nice way to do. You owned it before. Now own it. Lets see what you can do about that is in effect, what jefferson and his colleagues are saying and not not only did virginia no longer to the crown, but neither did the land to the west. And jefferson had an ad in mind land from sea to sea, including canada, cuba, the land and the wealth of the land, the to those who lived on it and the land as we well know included every aspect of property in which not only soil, but the labor force, the slaves that work the soil. What jefferson didnt have in hand from his sources is the claim that all men are created equal. The Anglo American world agreed that all englishmen were created equal, that possess the same legal. We had no argument with that what the colonists were claiming seemed to london to be rights possessed by no components of the empire, the right not to be taxed or regulated by parliament. And you know, thats thats become, you know, thats become good american, you know, bedrock. Free at best taxes at at worst as little tax as possible. Right. Okay. So jefferson and his colleagues didnt mean mean that all men are created equal. The modern sense. They did not believe that women were created equal, that slaves were created, that nonwhite races were created equal. And for jefferson, a college, it would not have included catholics catholics were not created equal to protestants. This is a protestant, not a catholic revolution, not a christian revolution. In some broad sense. So jefferson meant that all englishmen and europeans were born the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Those were not to be construed gain by law and. Very, of course, these rights exercised in ideal, not necessarily always in practice. I certainly, louis, the would had a different view of what right rights his subjects were born with white frenchmen were from londons point of view, not with the same rights as white englishmen and put aside everything else. So as a work of literary art, the declaration is mostly known by its preamble. But when you look at it in its entirety, of course it structurally unbalanced. You know, weve got it, we get know, you know, a cplus at best and in a in a kind of introductory composition simply on and on the basis of structure and its its the opening paragraph everybody more more or less knows its become such a basic founding text and the only. Significant changes that the committee then the congress as a whole made was in one or two of they a long list of. Against george the third that make up three quarters more than three quarters of the text of the declaration of an end to pendants and the one substantial paragraph that the congress omitted that was in jeffersons text was a paragraph f in which in citing one one after the other of the of the infractions that george the third the crime is that george the third had committed against the colonies was that george the third his predecessors and royalty had imposed post slavery on the colonies and that jefferson desired actually to keep the text. But his fellow congress then said no, that has go it has to contentious its going to raise wed rather not raise because of course they whatever rationalizations their evasion so on they they all knew that the crown was not responsible for the existence of slavery in the colonies that had no basis in fact that the colonists from the start had been complicit in. The importation of slaves and that colonists in the northern and southern colonies had worked. The International Slave trade. It provided us late. The labor force in the south that was one of the bases of colonial wealth and that it would have been a little too inyourface in a way that could readily be denied to claim that that that that british rule had forced slavery on the colonies. So the body of the declaration consists of a list of offenses against the rights of the colonists. So that and justifying why they warrant why colonies warrant separation, establish and an established a new independent government. And its a list of about 30 accusations, actions and they summarize and legal and forensic structure the grievance that jefferson his contemporaries had been accumulating. And as i remarked most of them had already appeared in a summary view in jeffersons draft of a constitute for virginia. They are a powerful list and jefferson is less gains power as concise include of this it takes special rhetorical and i cannot of effectiveness in being exclusive civilly directed against george the third the king seems a handiest personification of what americas were rebelling against jefferson transferred for george the third rhetorically psychologic early politically into a tyrant whose command is determined in american law. He stands in for represents all the alleged committed against american interests and rights and every indictment in the first half of the indictments begins with he has he has he has done this he has done that. He has done the other thing and jefferson has great talent for forensic, concise witness for brief and powerful and emotionally raw act. His accusations like a brilliant trial lawyer standing before a jury. And of course hoping that his words are being heard across the atlantic by the allies and financial supporters that colonies need so they declaration as like much good literate pure simple in its structure its divided into three parts of the abstract preface, followed by a statement of theme and purpose, middle and reemphasize and read prize as a conclusion. Be perfect to demonstrate the sort of story typical patterns for a good a good composition without obviously paying attention to the degree to which the composition has other merits as well. So theres nothing a original about the structure of the declaration. Its in essence a powerful document, but its a document dedicated to, if not a single and overwhelmingly main purpose are. What jefferson wrote was revised partly as ive indicated and the Congress Said unanimously passed it. Jefferson forever resent it. That the committee and the congress as a whole had there had dare to to make any adjustments to with his perfect prose. Well obviously the declaration independence at deserves our attention always and once was the case that every 4th of july the new times at least published the entire declaration. In and copy of the actual script of one of the surviving manuscripts on the i guess. It was on the back of the front section. I dont think thats happening anymore. Its not my. Exemplification of jefferson as a writer, but its one worth paying. Of course, special attention to. So lets skip 25 years. From 1776 to 1801. Jefferson at first disliked that, hated being president at the end, his second term, he couldnt leave washington fast enough. In fact, he got away with what no modern american president could get away with. He sort of stopped acting as president. So the six months of his second term since, his friend and colleague and james james was a shoo in to be elected the next president and. He turned over the duties of the office mostly james madison, and he sat in the white House Reading and twiddling his thumbs and looking forward to going home to monticello. Well, one of the reasons they also was eager to leave the white house is he had of an american future that he didnt approve of. He disapproved of the federal system. Is especially the Supreme Court. He hated John Marshall. He was in 1806 to have salt rubbed into the John Marshall wound because in 1806 jefferson eagerly looked to richmond, virginia, where aaron burr was on trial for treason which jefferson thought he was definitely guilty of and the luck of the assignment of Supreme Court judges to the various outlying districts. John marshall was the at aaron trial in richmond and instructed the jury exactly as to what the treason clause in the constitution meant. And the jury may not like the jeffersons former Vice President , jefferson hayes, but he aint guilty so jefferson hated number of people. One of them was marshall. Another one was burr. And of course, another was alexander hamilton, who, though he was dead by a at the end of jeffersons first term, as in the presidency of the time, jefferson was leaving office. And what. Should 1809 he he he knew that his own past rule vision of an america of farmers small big farmers people close to the earth who were by that very fact moral is superior to people who were not close to the earth, who lived in cities. And so he knew that hamilton washingtons of a of a commercial america of america was a big bank and lots of banks and scripts and and stock market and and and and all of those things that come from the soil that for. Monticello was the exact opposite of he also wasnt happy because of later on Andrew Jackson was on the rise and and some years before jeffersons death he was still paying attention. It seemed likely that Andrew Jackson would soon become president of the United States he detested. Jackson and he still was an idealist to think that American Ship of state that was sailing through turbulent waters would come out into a calmer sea, it still unnerved him considerably that what he had always believed would be the case. What did not seem as if would be the case. Jefferson always that what jefferson is sort of the paradox of an elitist leader with populist ideas who always believed that the would elect superior leaders like himself. And it didnt seem like that was going to happen. Let me provide a lighter note from washington. And he wrote in 1805, a charming letter to his eldest granddaughter granddaughter, it is very long, my dear, since i have received a letter from you one. Was it in the meantime verses which she clipped from newspapers have been accumulated to lie find it necessary to get off my hands without further waiting with them. I send abc from cornelia, another granddaughter, four years old. The little recipe of our charcoal is worth your mamas notice. Here we had frost, ice and snow and great damage in the gardens and orchards. How stands the fruit with you at monticello and in the neighborhood and particularly the teachers are are they what will they and when i come home the figs also have theyve been hurt you must ride over to monticello to inform yourself or collect information from going srt and let me have it by the next post present. My tenderest affections to your mama and accept my kisses for yourself and the little ones you dont have much of an image of jefferson sending kisses and kissing little ones and so forth. In a letter his granddaughter ellen, you began with an account of how many letters she had written to him in 15 week period. They had agreed that they would exchange letters every three weeks. Alas he wrote. There was balance to. So stands the for this year, my dear ellen, between you and me unless it very soon paid off, i shall send sheriff after you i enclose you abundant supply of poetry i will thank you if will put on your boots since and a ride to and inform how my flowers live this part of the country is beautifying with them so fast that every time every ride i take makes me anxious for those at monticello i dont know whether it is owing to your laziness, yours or mine, that letters have been so intimated. I assure you it, is not to my want of love to you, and to all of those about whose welfare i am always so anxious to learn. But it is useless to discuss old bankrupt scores. We will burn our old accounts and begin a new one. Deliver my indifference, dear, amidst all family and above all your mama. And except kisses and salutations for yourself. He he hoped he wrote, would soon receive a letter from her hope is so much pleasanter than despair that i always for for looking into futurity through her glass. It was is it was his predilection. It was personality so the use of the word indebtedness and that in that letter to granddaughter hes a man going bankrupt at the time and yet is able to play with that word probably any selfconsciousness of what he is doing in this lovely letter to his granddaughter right. Well, in the april 18, 109, in just left office, he wrote an address to the people of albemarle county, a touching, eloquent, unusually personal expression of relief and happiness and his return to his native country. And i think this single passage of his pen captures, encapsulates, encapsulates jeffersons heart, mind and values. I think a beautifully written expression of defining characteristics the tension he felt Public Service and private, his internal dialectic in the head and the heart, his belief in, the sustaining and redeeming of social harmony, his self belief in his own moral self worth and his tender to avoid selfexamination in his personal amphlett of life, his frequent evasion of painful subjects like slavery indian genocide, his neediness for approbation, his fundamental attachment to home land, pham lay as the touchstones of the happy life and his brilliance as a writer using words to sustain the life that he felt most happy with returning to the scenes of my birth and early life, he wrote to the society of those with whom i was raised and who have been ever to me. I receive within express civil pleasure the cordial welcome. You are so good as to give me long absent on duties which the history of a wonderful era made incumbent upon those called to them half a turmoil. The bustle and splendor of office have drawn, but sighs for the tranquil and irascible civil occupations of private life, for the enjoyment of, an affectionate intercourse with you, my neighbors and friends, and the endearments of family, which nature has given us all as a sweetener of every hour for these i gladly lay down the distressing burdens power and seek with my fellow citizens as repose and safety under the watchful care of the labors and perplexities of younger and a blur minds the anxiety as you express to administer my happiness do of themselves confer that happiness and the measure will be complete if my endeavors to fulfill my duties and to serve public stations to which i have been called, have obtained for me the approbation of my country, the part which i have acted the theater of public life has been before, and to their center. I submit it. But the testimony of native country, of the individuals who have known me in private life to my conduct in its various duties and relations, is the more grateful as proceeding from eyewitnesses and observers on your verdict rest the conscious security your wishes for my happiness are received with a just sensibility, and i offer sincere prayers for your own welfare and prosperity. What we wish for one another. Ill stop here because youve been attentive and patient and i like to end on on a note f of the jefferson to way into the larger balance a the totality of Jefferson Jefferson and in that totality was an extraordinary and brilliant intellect act writer contributor to who we are today for better for worse. And a man who was a person just like you and just like me, a founding father father. I most importantly, a human. So thank and ill stop here. And im happy to answer any questions or hear you make any remarks youd to make about jefferson or or about me. I assume all be remarks of approbation. Well, at least about me. Dont know about jefferson. Okay. Sir. Thank you for coming. Well, happy to be so, sir. What first drew you to write about jefferson as a writer and how did your assessment him evolve in the process of reading more of his writing . Yeah well, i. I was first attracted to lincoln as a writer and. I was partly a attracted to lincoln as a writer because. Of course, the gettysburg address, second inaugural address, somehow a part of the schooling with i, which i was brought up and also because my father had on his bookshelf a little book called the perfect, trivial, which had been given to him. So i read the inscription by. His fourth grade teacher in a Public School on the Lower East Side for deportment for the fourth. And so. So somehow that got me thinking my father and about other fathers about lincoln and lincoln as a writer and you know, when you have life of your own and youre a scholar or a writer youre looking for subjects whether youre thinking with consciously or not or often, what can you do that that that can bring a contribution that will be distinctive. So i wrote a biography called lincoln. The biography, a writer. And a lot of people liked it so a lot of people like that thats nice they like that for me. Maybe i can do another one. Well, who else is a writer who is not a writer by profession . Like like dickens and twain and so on and like out there and a great and glorious country. Theyre fascinated president s, you know so of course and writing about lincoln i became very conscious of John Quincy Adams and and had to do of course with lincoln as the great emancipator and as adams someone who went through a long, a long life, born into the revolution and almost living through the civil war. And after you all this. So, so i became enthralled with adamss diaries. So among some of the great literature. Both of of of of our literary writers of our historical and president ial writers. The diaries are so vivid, alive and then i did that book and i thought, well, the only other president who i have any interest interested in a writer is jefferson. Hes the only, only other president who has contributed to the whose language his own selfcreated language has contributed to the american historical conscious. So we carry it with us and. So i said, why not . Okay, ill learn something about the 18th century. What do i know about it, you know. And again, this is the biographer at work rather than the historian. So as a biographer, ive also had to become a historian. Some people think im an historian and i can get away with it. You say up to a point and and there are various devices i can use to get away with it. Never say he must when i can say he may have been thinking, you know, and and careful to check. Ive the the works of those who have been devoting their lives to the subject and to the period to make sure i make as few areas as possible so so thats how i got to thats how i got to jefferson is a the last of the president s so i could feel i had something distinctive or special to say about because i could bring to bear on him whatever Historical Context i was capable of being trustworthy about. But i could also bring to writing about jefferson as did about john and about lincoln. My training as a literary literary scholar sounds a little heavy as someone who who is immensely involved with language and languages, literature and, literature as language and would like to be a writer. So, okay, so, you know, a little bit of reflective glory i can try to write as well as i can, so at least i dont embarrass the writers writing about long dead. Of course by writing so poorly that i would ashamed to have me write about them. Theres not really a good answer to your question, but its the best. I think its the best. Its the best i can do. And yeah and there are other things i like narrative so and i like personality. I like character. I like trying to find out what makes us tick, what makes people what makes people from the tick. I wrote a of one living person, gore vidal and i began the biography essentially with a little preface saying i, i, i prefer that my subjects be dead, but in this case im making an exception said, etc. So you know, to to try to add an exercise that a leap leap of the human and humane and historic all imagination and put into the shoes as much you can. You can never, ever do a totally or completely of certain figures from the past as exciting and as fun and something i can do. And what else am i going to, you know . Okay, so. Any other questions or comments you the, jefferson, you presented today is very much sort of drawn a domestic. He always to want to go home or hes writing to his grandchildren or theres that kind of really a draw back to williamsburg when he so i mean if you want to talk a little about that tension, is that part of the jefferson you see that hes driven into one way too of this kind of life and domesticity the family, and yet theres something driving in the opposite direction. Do you want to say a little bit more about that . He he obviously he is a workaholic in certain ways and an amount of energy. A man whos, you know, doing Public Service all his life and yet is this the is this the operative tension that youre interested in . Yes. And he gets tension, headaches also. I very much identify, you know, extended wide and in the white house, he he closes the shades, lines, whatever they were in those days and stays in a darkened room for days and days of those tension headaches. And hes always a man torn, you know, in that sense. Hes a man of immense ambition. And and he always claims the ambition is not for his own self gratifying passion and ego expansion. And its always in an service of ideals. And he always much prefer to be at home. And he has some beautiful passages about his longing for being at home as the years go by. For a man whos almost never at home and who accepts one assignment after another. So this topic has been one that jeffersonians have written about of course, as to how to reconcile less obvious engagement with attraction to an engagement with power on behalf of what he thinks is the good life and, the right life for himself, his countrymen and attachment to place to home, family, to the soil, to his gardens, to his flowers, so forth. And so its just, you know, sometimes you can suspect that hes a little selfaware, that theres something not quite, you know, smooth this and other times it seems as if hes perfectly capable of holding both of these contradictions distant things simultaneously. And again, why not . You know, i sure i and im maybe you, but im sure i can hold and contradictory things similar in any dislike when it suits my needs so so i know i dont try to record i dont think those can be reconciled in some smooth. Well thank you for your attention and your questions i appreciate it veryi have a hunco be an animated conversation. So so joe and i weve had a lot of guest speakers over the years and from all different walks of life there hasnt been a conversation i have looked forward to