Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Ladies Influence And Image 20240622

Susan Caroline Scott harrison was born in 1832 where she met Benjamin Harrison. She grew into an accomplished artist, interested in womens issues. Although the harrison presidency has been rated as fairly unsuccessful by some historians, those who tracked first ladies considered Caroline Harrison as one of the more underrated to serve in this role. Well learn why in this segment of first ladies influence and image and here to tell us more about the story of Caroline Harrison, our two guests who know the office well. Edie mayo, thanks for coming back. And bill seale, white house historian, has spent his professional career understanding the history of that building. Bill and edie are both members of cspans Academic Advisory Committee for this series. Were going to start with an illustration tonight. The white house itself is one of the most iconic buildings in the world. If Caroline Harrison had had her way, it would like different today. We have her designs for the white house that wed like to show people at home right now. What were her plans . What was she trying to do with this big expansion of the white house . Dr. Seale well, it was a time of big spending in his administration. The government was spending a lot of money. And she got into it by wanting to create a house, they were crammed in this house. They only lived upstairs. You see, to understand it, on the picture, the middle of the upper picture, the columns and just the four windows to each side of it, the office was on the left. The east room was just below that and the other public rooms on the ground floor, then the other end, the west end, or the right side, was the family quarters which was seven rooms and a bath and a half and she wanted Something Big to live in. But something also to entertain in because the harrisons entertained all the time. And so she had this plan done which you see here. Youre looking at the south, of the back part of the white house with the round porch, where president truman later built a balcony. The center part is the old white House Building that was finished in the 18th century and the white house is on a bank. Its a threestory house on the walkout on the back. About 17 feet, i guess. And so what you see here was a quadrangle with the green houses that they had had, which were really specimen conservetories. See thats dropped. So the windows would still have the beautiful view of the potomac. It would not have been an enclosed area. On the right side was to be, as i recall, the National Gallery or the national museum. It was not washington one. And then there were other public rooms on the other side. The second floor then had guest room, family quarters and such as that to make it a much more livable house, as well as the office. Susan looks a bit like some of the grand houses of europe. This is going to brand the other traditionalists, but are you happy she wasnt successful . Yes, i am. From our point of view. It was basically Theodore Roosevelt who insisted it be restored. Susan edie, whats interesting about the story is this woman came into the white house not being seen as political but she had an innate sense of how the lobby was. She was successful in getting it past the senate. Tell the story of how she put together that Winning Coalition for the senate. Ms. Mayo well, she went about lobbying through her entertaining in the first place. But she also called in the press and showed them the plans and got them to sign on that this was really a good idea. And of course they were in the white house at the centennial of the presidency. So she thought this would be a wonderful plan. As a memorial for the 100th anniversary, the nation had grown in land and in power and she wanted a residence that reflected the global power of the United States. So this was a perfect opportunity. So she called in the press, she got a lot of major people in washington interested. She lobbied the senate. She lobbied the house. And i will let bill tell why it failed. Susan before we do that, she also enlisted the help of a former first lady. Ms. Mayo harriette lane. She brought her in and she also used the name of George Washington and how this would be, you know, a fitting memorial and so forth. Dr. Seale he had built the house. She was just making it work. Susan and hadnt washington also envisioned that it could have been added on . Dr. Seale he did. In years to come. Susan so, she won the senate but in the house she ran into a formidable foe which was the speaker reid. Dr. Seale speaker tom reed from maine. He was a great adversary of Benjamin Harrison. They fought a lot over bills. And Leland Stanford from california was mrs. Harrisons great ally. And he spent the night sleeping in the cloakroom, hoping the appropriation would go through. But speaker reed, he was a very razortongued kind of sharp guy, and he cooked up this story that harrison had appointed a postmaster in maine without his approval and he crashed the whole thing. He wouldnt let it come up. Susan so, lacking her ability to expand the white house, she turned to restoring what she already had. Dr. Seale she redecorated. Thinking and hoping it was a minor thing to do. And she became interested in the Historic House and began researching things. And pulling out antiques and stuff and putting them in the different rooms and she had a decorator in boston make things spiffy. Tiffany had been the last one to do the rooms. And they were very rundown. The special effects and all that nobody could reproduce. Susan she didnt just find Old Furniture that had been stored in the white house. Heres a quote of what else she discovered in the white house. This is from her diary and well be using quotes from her very prolific diary throughout our program tonight. Tell me the story of the rats in the white house. Ms. Mayo washington has a very prolific and wellknown rat community. So they had infested the white house. And were both in the basement and i guess also in the attic. And so apparently the man with the ferrets was brought in to help reduce the rat population. But there was also a man with a gun i think. Who was shooting the rats whenever he saw them. Dr. Seale he would proceed her through attic. Then strangely enough, atic had no access to it. The little back stair that lincoln made famous was taken out and the elevator was put in there and somehow stair access to two floors, so they had to go on a ladder, up above the elevator, and she went, little tiny woman. She went up there with this guard, with the gun, and they began pulling things out of boxes and a rat would appear and hed shoot it. And they were big ones, too. Susan hed shoot, shed scream. Is how the story goes. We would like to invite you to participate. This series, which weve been learning so much and hope you are too, this is our next to last for season one. And wed love to have your comments and your participation and questions tonight. You can do it three ways. You can call us. And our phone numbers in eastern and several time zones if you would like you can also join our social community, our Facebook Page already has some comments coming in. And you can tweet us, but if you do, use firstladies. As she approached the white house, she was criticized by the press for being overly domestic. What was the view of the changing first lady that it would be criticized . Ms. Mayo i think they thought that doing actual housework, which what was rumored, rather than looking for historical treasures and trying to salvage the history of the white house and presidency, it was looked at as she was, you know, actually engaging in housework and maybe, who are, cooking their own meals. And this was seen as very much beneath the dignity of a first lady. But one of the things that she mirrors in the time is the growing Home Economics movement. Which organized itself around 1890. And so she was very much a part of her times in anticipating what was thought to be the professionalization of housework. So instead of being praised for what she did, she was criticized. And she could not fathom why there was all this, you know scorn and mocking and so forth in the press of what she was doing in the white house, but i think people didnt quite understand what she was trying to accomplish. Dr. Seale i would have thought that washington is hard on first ladies. Theyve been a little hard on mrs. Obama. They are until they sort of prove themselves. And she had been around, he been in the senate, theyd been in washington means times. She was a popular woman in washington, socially. But when she got in the house, it was a little different. Ms. Mayo different viewpoint. She was very hurt by the criticism. Susan what we learn is that the press went into a frenzy. It was the booming age of newspapers, there was coverage in magazines. So, the press was prepared to cover this first lady and werent happy with what they were seeing. Heres one quote from her diary. She wrote about the press, i am about the press dr. Seale ms. Mayo she was following this absolutely gorgeous young woman. So that must have been very, very difficult. Dr. Seale and a clever young woman. Young and with a husband who had no use for p. R. So people flocked around Frances Cleveland. Ms. Mayo frances was the sort of Jackie Kennedy of her age. She was quite beautiful. She was 10 years younger than jackie was when she entered the white house. So she was very, very popular. Of course there was this whole thing about this maydecember romance that had taken place with the president. And much speculation before he actually married that maybe he was courting her mother. Then there was the sort of bombshell that, no, he was courting the young and beautiful frances. She was a beautiful woman but she was not Frances Cleveland, franky as she was known in the press, was just to tell a story about how clever she was. You may have had it on this show. Susan she had her due last week. Dr. Seale the president of spain is the first real visitor of state. She was the same as age as mr. Cleveland. There was a reception at the white house and a pretty, pretty woman wore pearls clear to the floor and diamonds and all that stuff. Mrs. Cleveland wore an offwhite silk dress. It was a coup. She stole the show. Susan Benjamin Harrison, our 23rd president , he was the republican cleveland was a democrat. Were going to learn about some of the policies of his administration. But we talked about the fact that wed be reading quotes for her diary and dave on twitter asks, knowing how important the presidency had become, did caroline expect her diary to be made public someday . Were going answer that question about her diaries by visiting the Harrison House. It is in indianapolis. And if you get to the capital city of indiana, visit it yourself. Were going to visit there for the first time and learn more about the diaries. Caroline harrisons white house diary, this is something that we dont have out very often. She kept the diary and you can see very fragile. So shes written in the front here, keeping the diary and the dates. 1889. To 1891 for this one. In the diary she mentions several Different Things she mentions going to Arlington Cemetery and decorating the soldiers gravesite at arlington. She mentioned riding with benjamin to the soldiers home and hospital. Some of the things that were very near and deer to her here were working with orphans and with the hospitals and she continued to do some of that while she was in washington as well, visiting the hospitals and what not there as well. But she also mentioned some of the other events and things that are going none her diary. Her artistic abilities i think. Having the floral arrangements for several different banquets and dinners. She mentions decorations there as well. This is a dinner at the arlington in washington, d. C. , and you can see the table setting had quite a large group. We have the Vice President , the president and where the different delegations were sitting at that particular dinner. She also talks a lot about the centennial celebration in new york for the centennial of George Washingtons inauguration. From 1789 to 1889. Things from the banquets and one of the parades was 7 1 2 hours long. And then also very personal and familyrelated things mentioned in the diary as well. Mentioned how shes feeling, what the weather is like. But one of the things that she talks about is the christening of their young granddaughter Mary Lodge Mckee. And she says that they used water from the river jordan that her sister had brought back from a trip over there. And we actually have some of that water in our collection yet today. So we have a little container here. Actually have, you know, some water in there as well. A bottle with the label there that her sister had brought back. And Mary Lodge Mckee was christened in a private ceremony at that time and she also mentions christmas at the white house and having the tree put up for the grandchildren and the harrisons had the first decorated Christmas Tree in the white house. And she mentioned some of the gifts that were given to her at that time including some opera glasses. So we have her opera glass heres that were given to her as a Christmas Gift that she mentions in the diary as well. Susan so the answer to the viewers question is it looks like she intended for these to be public documents. Dr. Seale but you never know. If she had started much earlier, a person can get so absorbed in a diary, it becomes a confidant or friend. I dont know whether she did or not. She didnt do other things. Selfpromotional or showing her. You know, she and the president both suffered from depression. And eventually it had an impact on her health. But they fought that together very hard by keeping busy. Susan how many children did they have . They had 2. Dr. Seale they lost one. Susan the white house in that time was filled with children but they were their grandchildren, correct . Dr. Seale their grandchildren and their children. The son was in and out. He lived in montana. But his wife was there. And the children and then the daughter, mary, whos called mimi, and the little boy who became world famous for doing nothing. Just being baby mckee. At the white house. Susan right. So what was life at the white house like . Dr. Seale crowded. And lots and lots of entertaining. The evening was absolutely absorbed with it. Remember the office was in the house. At the other end of the hall from the family quarters. So it was there were about 15 servants as i recall. Most federal employees from the agencies and they are paid from the agencies and all these children and the routine of the private house, plus the public activities, it was a very busy place. Susan we mentioned at the outset that the first lady was an artist and were going to learn a little bit more about the kind of art she particularly loved but first lets do a few calls. Well talk to horace from philadelphia. Before ask you the question, would you mute the volume on your tv . Were getting feedback. Caller sure. Thank you for taking my call. Ive been watching the series right along. Im enjoying it very, very much. Can you tell us about her background . Who were her parents, where was she raised . Long before she met her husband, can you tell us about that . Susan sure. Can you take that and were going to spend a segment on it later on. Ms. Mayo well, she was born and brought up in oxford, ohio. Her father had been a minister but at the time he was a professor. At the university, miami university. And then went on to found the oxford Womens Institute which was a college for women. And so her parents were both extremely well educated and her father was a supporter of womens education. So he made certain that his daughter had a good one. And i think that sort of interested her for the future in womens accomplishments and the progress of women. Susan laura is watching in clarksville, indiana. Youre on. Caller why are the first ladies called the first ladies . Susan thats a good question. Ms. Mayo well, i think that started when Zachary Taylor used that term for dolly madson during her Memorial Service in 1849. And he said she was truly the first lady of our land. She was a connection to the revolutionary time period and she keeps coming back to the white house. She was the first in social standing, probably for 16 years. First as jeffersons standin first lady then, first lady on her own. But she continued to have great influence. And so i think thats how it started, that she was the first in stature. And that name carried on. It wasnt really picked up until after the civil war. I think harriette layne had that under some of her photographs in papers and so anyway, but it just means the first among everyone. Linda, bloomington, minnesota, youre on. Caller good evening. I have a question that relates to my own family. I had a grandmother whose name was Kate Harrison and then she married and her name was thomas and she grew up i believe in missouri. There was a story that her mother had been married in the white house and i dont know if theres any truth to this, but i thought perhaps you might know if there was a wedding in the white house during Benjamin Harrisons term there. Dr. Seale it would not be surprising but i dont know that name. Local newspapers would probably carry it. Both in washington and wherever they were from. Thats where i would look for it if i were looking for it. But i dont i know in lincolns time there were marriages in the white house. John adams and some others but i dont know any in the harrison tenure. Susan one more question and then well learn more about the first ladys artistic endeavors. Charlotte from olympia washington. Whats your question . Caller hi. I just wanted to mention i had had the fortune of going through indianapolis last fall and got to visit the harrison home and its a Beautiful House and ive been able to go to several president ial homes but they have so much actual furniture that belongs to the harrisons and the people there are very friendly. In anyone happens to be going through indianapolis, do stop. Its a wonderful home. Susan i think they will appreciate the endorsement and they certainly were very helpful to us in allowing us to record so much video for you to see tonight. By the way, when we talked about the white house diaries, every week on our first ladies website, all of the video from the shows weve done so far are contained there and also special video you havent seen during this program. But theres always one special feature for each first lady and tonight it is the entirety of Caroline Harrisons white house diaries. If you want to dig into her days, you can read it all there at cspan. Com firstladies. Lets now go to the white lets now go to the white house for the next video. And you will learn more from the white house curator, about the white house china collection. When she came to the white house she was very interested in how the place worked. She came down here. This was the ground floor but it was sort of considered to be the basement because the kitchen was down here, laundry facilities, storage for food and tableware and such and she found that it was rather dirty. Sort of ominous. And she tried to like spruce it up. She went through the cabinets and found old pieces of china and then asked servants if they could tell her, does anybody remember how old this piece is . So she started the idea of trying to catalog and create a sense of what chinas were. She had a plan for putting some display cases in the state dining room. But never came to fruition. She was credited with being the initiater of the concept of a permanent china collection at the white house. She was interested in designing china she wanted it to be american, as other first ladies had discovered there was not a Strong Enough porcelain Manufacturing Industry in america in 1891 when she started looking into new china so she decided this would go ahead and let a France Company make the blanks but she would provide the did he dine the design. It wasnt a full service. She didnt try to order 12 or 15 pieces per place setting. It was designed with a shape that was pretty much the lincolnera shape, that kind of simple this is a soup plate and a breakfast plate or tea plate. The eagle was very similar to what was on the lincoln china that represents the great seal of the United States. What she specifically designed was the border. There was a combination of ears of corn and golden rod which she felt represented american plants. The agricultural plants in corn. So there was dinner plates and soup plates and breakfast plates made in the blue. And there were also breakfast plates and tea plates made with the white border and then a series of cups and saucers. So there werent all the other shapes that you might have in a state service of bowls and cream soup cups and various other things that went with it. Susan so, we credit her today with establishing this very popular spot in the white house. Dr. Seale yes. And of course Table Service all through the years is extremely important to the white house with the state dinners. That is the official dinners that are are paid for by the state department. Planned by the family more or less. But you know, eight wines were served normally at dinner. It would be reduced to three under Theodore Roosevelt and poured generously. There was a lot of wine and men guests would sometimes have scotch instead of wine. And then you would have numerous plates, bone dishes, all of these things that at each plate, serving about 60 for a state dinner in those days. Ms. Mayo and i just wanted to say that the cups and saucers that were ordered for the harrison china did not arrive at the white house until after carolines death. Which is very sad. She didnt get to see them. And the china was reordered periodically in later administrations so it became a very popular service. Ordered again by mckinley and roosevelt and even as late as Jacqueline Kennedy and mrs. Clinton. Susan in addition to the official design that she did she was an avid painter of china as a hobby and in fact she gave classes in this at the white house. Dr. Seale which may have been a political move. She had music she was a musician. Susan politics in the white house. Dr. Seale she was a musician, painter and was fluent in french. And i think she spoke spanish. Did she . Ms. Mayo i know she spoke french. Im not sure about spanish. Dr. Seale she had classes. Ms. Mayo she did have language and china painting. Dr. Seale it smoothed the feathers of some of the people. In washington, they kind of silenced themselves about her because they wanted to be part of those classes. They were ladies classes. Susan next, a phone call from phil in north hollywood, california. Caller hi there. Thank you so much for the wonderful series. Im just wonderfully addicted to all of you. You mentioned baby mcfee at first. I was kind of curious about it because i remember reading something years ago, it was like the first pop culture. Now we dont even know about them. But i was wondering if could you elaborate more about your story over there about maybe mckee and how he became such a big sensation throughout america. Just kind of curious if you had any more observations about him. Susan thank you. We have a photograph of baby mckee, well show as were learning more. Dr. Seale i think he was just a cute little kid that they let the press have access to. Ms. Mayo and in the cleveland administration, you know, they had baby ruth. And the candy bar was named after baby ruth. Not after the baseball player, babe ruth. But at any rate, this is the period when photographic studios started taking enormous numbers of pictures of the white house the furnishings, the occupants and particularly the children. Became very, very popular. It was sort of a new pop culture kind of sensation and fixated on babe mckee. Susan this is a great picture were showing right now of a goat cart on the lawn of the white house. With the harrison grandchildren. Dr. Seale the wicker cart that the children played on the driveway on the south lawn. South lawn was kept closed since the Grant Administration for children to play. You see the greenhouses behind them . And that goat is a special kind of goat. I forget its name but it was still very prominent goat raises that raise that kind of goat and they do race them and show them. The harrisons were big animal people. So, they had all kinds of animals. Mrs. Cleveland had 29 pets but they didnt have that many pets. They had some pets and that little cart became quite famous there. Actually is another one. Another cart. As well as that one. Susan in addition to the china, establishing the china collection, she also bought the First White House Christmas Tree. Which we now think of as very much a part of the holiday celebration. What was it like in the harrison years . Dr. Seale i dont know what it was like. She brought the Christmas Tree in, do you know . Ms. Mayo thats as much as i know and it was decorated. Susan in the family quarters. Dr. Seale yes. Susan today its part of the public display for people coming in. Ms. Mayo and the president dressed up as santa claus and played santa claus with the grandchildren and so forth. Susan can we imagine a modern day president in a santa claus suit . Dr. Seale now, i can. Susan when i read that i thought, hmm, photograph. Ms. Mayo speaking of photographs and the donkey cart, i mean, the goat cart, excuse me, caroline i think was very savvy in knowing that people were going to demand photographs of the grandchildren. And the family. So instead of just letting them descend on her she called in a pioneering woman photographer, Frances Benjamin johnson, and had the children photographed and it gave her and the family much more control over how the photographs were taken and where and when and how these children were pictured in the press. Dr. Seale thats a good point. Ms. Mayo i think she was very smart about doing that. Susan it also seems very modern. Ms. Mayo exactly. And that was one of the things that Frances Cleveland had or did complain about in the second administration. That she was afraid people were going to kidnap the children. They found ways to get into the white house grounds and she was constantly fearful. So i think what caroline did was very smart. Susan another thing she did for the white house was to bring electricity into it. And we have a photograph or an illustration rather of whats called the great illumination of the white house in 1891. How important was this to bring electricity into the mansion . Dr. Seale extremely important. And the harrisons were terrified of it. They wouldnt turn it on or off. When they were ready to go to bed theyd call one of the employees to turn the lights off. Susan for four years . Dr. Seale never got used to it. Scared to death of it. They were used to gas. Susan whats interesting is it was installed by the Edison Company itself. So was the entire mansion illuminated at that point . Or was it just in the public space . Dr. Seale no, the living rooms were. The bedrooms, they threaded the old gas fixtures, some of them and hung lightbulbs from the chandeliers and that was that way until 1892 and there were lots of those big old fillment bubbles hanging around, you know . But it was not lighted like it would be today. It would be heavy candlelight to us but it was really an innovation and considered less dangerous because the gas went off at a certain time at night about 9 00 or 9 30 at night. If you didnt have all those turned, the gas would come out into the rooms and people were asphyxiated all the time. Then they would light the coal oil lights, kerosene lights, and so this was something that wasnt as dangerous really. But it seemed dangerous to them. Ms. Mayo they were afraid of getting shocked i think or starting a fire. Dr. Seale i think they could have been shocked if they did it wrong. Susan so prior to this, when president s burned the midnight oil, they really were. Dr. Seale the gas was off. Susan dan is in big timber, montana. Whats your question tonight . Caller my question, i heard you mentioned earlier that one of the president s children, i think his son, you said, lived in helena . Did they say it in helena . Dr. Seale i dont know. Theres a Harrison House there. I think their house still stands. Caller oh, wow. I remember Justice Harrison just passed away a couple of years ago, was on the Supreme Court for years. I wonder if he was related . Dr. Seale i dont really know. I know they were devoted to montana. He had ranching interests and also copper interests. And was a very successful man. He was not going to give that up to go stay in the white house. Besides the baby mckee and things for which they might have been celebrated, she also received criticism in the press and this came when she accepted a gift from a postmaster general wanamaker who was a very successful man, a house in cape may, new jersey. Can either of you tell the story of how that blew up in her face and what happened . Ms. Mayo well, people looked at it as if it were a bribe. It was supposed to be a Little Cottage and i think it had what, 20 rooms or something . Like that . At any rate, it was looked on as a bribe from wannamaker to the harrison administration. And finally the outcry got so heated that they had to pay wannamaker for it 10,000, which was a lot of money in those days. To make it look like, you know the president said, well, we were going to buy it anyway. But it was one of those things that, like, for instance, after the civil war, a list of subscribers got together and gave grant a home and so it was not unheard of. Dr. Seale no. But for some reason the press spun it as if this was possibly a bribe. So they had to end up paying for the house. Dr. Seale it was a very tumultuous time politically. Anything they could jump grant got a house practically every year. He had lots of houses. Fully furnished. Linens and all. But he didnt get in any trouble for it. But this did. But it was a pretty hot time. It was a very tense time between the democrats and the republicans. The motivations were clearly drawn. The republicans were protectionist, the democrats were not. The republicans wanted high tariffs and the democrats did not. And so on. And harrison was a man who was of conservative nature. In that he wanted the debts paid, he didnt want a lot of spending, paradoxically because it was a time of very great spending really in his administration, but these were the the tensions of the time. And how cleveland got back in. Susan i also read that it was a time of great grief and sadness in washington. No less than 15 deaths during a fouryear period of people in the washington circle. People like associate justices on the Supreme Court. The Navy Secretary and his family were burned alive in a house. And there were strikes in the east and miner strikes. Dr. Seale homestead strike, a steel plant, it was a terrible thing, and 20 men were shot dead, of the protesters and the american public, while it seemed justified to the plant and carnegie and rest, it horrified the american public. They just could not believe it. And this chipped away at harrison, he got a lot of the blame for that. Susan did this contribute to the depression that you mentioned earlier . Dr. Seale the depression, oh, his own depression . I think that went way back. I think it goes back to the civil war when he was a private general and though he was a little man, he was quite a leader and the whole prospect of war was horrifying to him. Theyd been married about, what five years . Ms. Mayo short time. Five years, i think. Dr. Seale and they both were very gripped by that period. As many people were. Ms. Mayo and he must have witnessed horrible things on the battlefield, i would imagine. Dr. Seale yes. Susan a couple more questions. Dr. Seale there were a lot of old curtains. Furniture. Different objects of furniture. Not specifically. Susan was it the resolute desk brought down . Dr. Seale the resolute desk, it was just recently. Ms. Mayo that was something that came in the hayes administration. Dr. Seale and it was used in the upstairs hall. She furnished the upstairs hall from the attic. The corridor that runs the full length of the house, on the single floor, was just an old hallway with white wardrobes and things in it and one end of it was a waiting room. She furnished that a lot from old things she found in the attic. Ms. Mayo and she was trying to make more room for the family. The family quarters had become so cramped and overrun by the president ial offices that, you know, she was looking for space anywhere she could find it. So she turned that hallway into a large sort of living area with, you know, defined spaces for seating and conversation. Susan did caroline invite any first ladies back to the white house . Dr. Seale mrs. Hayes had died. Ms. Mayo thats the one i know about, harriette lane. Susan so we talked about the fact that she was seen as a domestic partner. But Caroline Harrison was a great political partner to her husband, Benjamin Harrison. And next were going to learn about that more and how it affected his political success in this visit to the harrison home in indianapolis. Caroline harrison was certainly an active participant in Benjamin Harrisons political life. I have just stepped out the door as Benjamin Harrison did many times to address the crowds that came to hear him speak when he was campaigning for the presidency. There were over 300,000 people who came to indianapolis. In fact, the yard became so crowded that they had to move some of the speeches downtown to the university park. She was always beside him or just inside the door preparing for guests to come inside the house. Preparing to maybe give refreshments to some of the guests. Preparing to greet them and shake their hands. Caroline was very much devoted to Benjamin Harrison and the ideals of his campaign. When she planned her inaugural address, she wanted it to be designed in the United States, she wanted the silk to be spun in the United States, she wanted the dress to be designed and made in the United States. Because Benjamin Harrison campaigned, advocated that we become an independent nation. And she was willing to do her part to see that happen. This probably was one of carolines favorite rooms in the house. She loved to entertain and many, many different groups came to hear Benjamin Harrison speak. Caroline was his righthand person. She wasnt always on the stoop with him but she was certainly behind the scenes and eager to invite people in for some hospitality. One group that came was a group that harrison greatly admired and very much encouraged and that was the black community in this area. And when he finished speaking to them, he invited them all to come into his home which they did and they shook hands with Benjamin Harrison and Caroline Harrison. As they walked through the house. This is Benjamin Harrisons favorite room. Its his library. And how interesting that in his place to be, we have Caroline Harrisons beautiful little desk. I think that in this room, probably benjamin drew a great deal of strength and comfort from having caroline close by. And maybe she didnt talk to him about what paper he was writing or what bill he was working on but just looking up from his desk and seeing his carrie was an encouragement to him. He knew that she was there if he needed her, he knew that she loved him and i think that caroline was the kind of wife that empowered her husband. Susan so, we learned that she was very much instrumental in hosting these events that would bring the crowds and campaigned for Public Office essentially by staying home. Ms. Mayo ms. Mayo there were two new ways of two Different Campaign techniques that came in at the end of the 19th century. The Front Porch Campaign was one and the whistle stop was the other and they were sort of that opposite ends of the spectrum. The whistle stop, you know, you got on a train and went all around the country. This way you stayed home on the Front Porch Campaign and greeted the neighbors and anybody who came in by train. So, this brought the wife of the candidate right into the forefront of the campaigning without violating the norms of a womans place in the home. So it was perfect for her as far as the type of campaign technique. Susan did caroline like campaigning or did she have safety concerns for her husband . Wed already lost two president s as a nation. Was there an increase in security for president ial candidates at this time . Dr. Seale i dont think so. Maybe the local sheriff. But even president truman had no when he left office, had no protection. But one thing id like to add to what edie said is that it was considered inappropriate for a man to campaign for himself, to get out and make the speeches for himself. Ms. Mayo very different from today. Dr. Seale very different from today. And the sitting on the front porch was another way of sitting in your stage. Ms. Mayo youre being called to the office. Its not selfpromotion. Theyre coming to call you to be their president. Dr. Seale and these are regular carnivals. They sell postcards. And this will be repeated when you get to mckinley because he was very famous. And wed just sit on the porch on rocking chairs and people would come by the thousands to look at them. Susan jordan in pennsylvania. Good evening and welcome to the conversation. Caller hi. Im a big fan of your guys and i know all about the president s. I know their age and stuff. My question is, was Caroline Harrison older than her husband . Dr. Seale yes. Ms. Mayo a year older. Susan while were talking about her husband, here are some of the important things that happened politically and policywise during the harrison presidency. First of all, there were a number of states that were added to the union. North dakota, south dakota montana and washington. And in the year later, in 1890 idaho and wyoming were added as part of the United States. Also, the battle of wounded knee occurred during the harrison administration. And the sherman antitrust act and the sherman silver purchase act. So two raging debates in this country were about silver, policy, and also the whole tariff concept which we saw that the president greatly supported. What happened to the economy result of this . Dr. Seale the economy basically the silver act led the economy into a depression. Harrison lost in the election of 1892 and he was lucky because the economy crashed in the autumn of 1893. President cleveland returned to office. And mrs. Harrison by that time had died. Susan on twitter it was asked whether or not caroline provided any political guidance or was her place beside her husband like frances was with grover . The answer would be yes. She was much more atuned to politics. Dr. Seale much more. I wouldnt say frances was at all. This woman was very savvy of what he was doing and very interested in the position of women. She was not an activist in the street like the suffragists would be who wanted the vote later on. But she believed that the power of women was very, very great. Which it was. And she believed in women getting out there and getting involved. Susan and speaking of her influence, not just on her husband but also to affect change in society, heres another item from her diary. The first lady wrote, my mail, wrote ms. Mayo dr. Seale they all have that. Susan i think that was a part of being first lady probably since dolly madsons time. Dr. Seale ms. F. D. R. Had just cards and cards of letters people wanted to get someone out of jail or kept from hanging or whatever. Susan next is a call from duncan. Caller there was a wealthy family in ohio at the turn of the century last named rhinehart. Did the harrisons have any experience with that family, by chance . Dr. Seale i have no idea. Susan we wouldnt be able to know that kind of detail. Maybe someone in your own state could answer that. Laura in michigan. Caller hi, how are you . Im so excited, i cant believe youre talking about the harrisons. Ive lived here for about 30 years. Ive had an inaugural invitation to the inaugural ball in 1889. Of Benjamin Harrison. And i wonder if could you tell me anything about that inaugural ball. Dr. Seale you dont need to write a regret anymore. But thats fascinating. The inaugural ball. It was a ferociously rainy time. And it was in the pension building, i believe. All decorated inside. Dr. Seale marine band played. The harrisons and they danced. They had not done so in a while. And the dancing custom was brought back to the white house where it had been missing since harriette lane. And the marine band would play and people would dance and that was a spinoff of the inaugural. It was a very it was in rain storm but it was very glamorous and happy event. Susan more than halfway through our program and time to look back at an earlier question about the couples early life. They were both attendees of miami of ohio in oxford, ohio. Tell us more about how they met. She was a native. He came from somewhere else . Ms. Mayo i think he was from cincinnati maybe. Dr. Seale from ohio, yeah. Ms. Mayo he was definitely from ohio. And they met there in college. He i think was taking a course from her father. In mathematics. And then he began to visit the harrison home under the pretense of, you know, creating a relationship with his professor but in actuality because he wanted to see more of caroline. Susan after they married they moved to indianapolis. Dr. Seale yes, where they were to stay the rest of their lives except for washington. Susan were the politics in indianapolis or indiana at the time easier to get into . Whats the motivation at that took them to the state . Dr. Seale its a smaller place. They were from prominent families. Dr. Scott was a prominent educator, as youve said, and very well known. And harrison quickly rose, really, he went to the civil war, and after the civil war his law practice flourished and business law and divorce. Indianapolis was the reno of the day. And lots of people went there to get a divorce and he was the best divorce lawyer in town. And his fortune increased. He made quite a bit of money as a lawyer. Susan indianapolis is the reno of its day. All you hoosiers out there, a little bit of your history. Dr. Seale you dont have to leave home. Susan so his civil war service, he had children by the time that the civil war had started and it was a big decision in the family as to whether or not he would serve. What did she do during the civil war . Ms. Mayo she worked with several womens patriotic associations. She visited hospitals, attended wounded soldiers, you know helped with the womens loyal league and that kind of union, what do i want to say patriotic organizations, the womens sanitary commissions which were helping with nurse wounded soldiers. So, you know, the womens side of the war issue. Susan which gave her experience in organizing for causes . Was that fair to say . Dr. Seale i think she was just psychologically set for that because of her upbringing. Thats what her family believed in. Im sure her father as a widower living with them in the white house encouraged everything she did in that direction. And contributing that to the community i think was part of their ethical background. Dr. Seale they were deeply religious people. Susan how did his law career lead him into politics . Dr. Seale the way a law career does. There he was and he was thought well of. And simply decided, persuaded to run for office and did. He just drifted into it. Susan ms. Mayo and then he became the secretary of the republican state committee. So through that he began to make all these contacts in the state. And campaigned for other republicans which then stood him in good stead in his own right as far as a candidate or possible candidate. Susan and was elected to the United States senate. He first tried for governor and was unsuccessful in that bid. Dr. Seale yes. Susan and then was successful in his bid for the United States senate. We have another video. Were going to return to the harrison home and learn more about carolines interests and causes. This is the part of the master bedroom suite. This is just a beautiful room, a room where we love to think of caroline. This would be the sitting room where caroline might have entertained her friends. For instance, she belonged to a number of literary clubs. Perhaps they came and met here and talked about the authors that they liked. Caroline particularly liked dickens and especially liked shakespeare so that might have been going on in this room. I think, too, that of course this might have been the room that inspired some of her art because it has a beautiful view out the window onto the yard. Where her gardens were and where her flowers grew. Theres a wonderful easel which is a display easel. So when she finished a picture she might put it on that easel for her friends to admire when they came up for tea. Theres a beautiful fan that was given to her by ulysses grants daughterinlaw. And she thought it was so beautiful that she put it in a frame so that nobody could hurt it. She also would have probably done some piecework in here. She loved to do embroidery. And i think she and beading. That was very popular. And so i think this would have been a room that she worked in. As well as entertained in. She did Many Community things. For instance, she was involved in the orphans asylum. She served or their board she went to the orphans asylum at least once a week. She often made clothes or took clothes to them. She did cooking and took the cooking to the orphan asylum. She cared very much about these little children and making sure that their lives were better than they might have been. So that was one of her causes. She also played the piano, of course, for her church. And every single sunday. So that was a talent that she put to use for other people. I think caroline had confidence but i also think she had purpose. And so she was always looking for an opportunity to use her skills, to help her fellow man. And to serve her community. Susan really an interesting line, that she had purpose. And were going to talk about how she used some of that purpose when she came to the white house. But first a couple of other questions. Was it common for first ladies to go to school, let alone hold a College Degree like mrs. Harrison . Ms. Mayo that was something that was relatively new. Mrs. Hayes was the First College graduate amongst first ladies. Frances cleveland i think also graduated from college and i think grover waited to pop the question while sending flowers to her the whole time she was there. And then Caroline Harrison also had a College Degree. So it was something that was coming into vogue for women in the later part of the century. Dr. Seale they were all well educated. Whether it was Home Education of course was the commonest of all that people had, but some of these girls as young girls went to the female academies sponsored by the churches like the baptists and methodists and theyd live there and theyd learn language, theyd learn whatever they learned there. Classics and college was later idea with women. Ms. Mayo but very well read, all of them. Dr. Seale well read, yes. Susan mrs. Harrison was so progressive on womens issues what about her views on race . Was she influenced at all by the Abolitionist Movement in her early adult years . Dr. Seale oh, yes. Ms. Mayo very much so. Dr. Seale very much so. And his whole administration fought for the africanamerican vote everywhere. Now, of course, remember now that would be africanamerican men to vote, not women. But it was for the africanamerican vote, he was very vocal about it. Susan next is dan in omaha. Hi, dan. Caller hi. When you showed the office there at his personal home there, i think i saw a picture of the ninth president , the grandfather of dr. Seale william henry. Caller yeah. Did william harrison, did he own this property himself . Susan did Henry Harrison own that property . Dr. Seale where the house is . No, he lived in ohio. His home is in ohio and its open to the public as well. William Henry Harrisons another matter. He died after 30 years in the 30 days in the white house. And harrison saw him as a little boy of maybe 9 years old in his coffin. Thats the only time he saw him. They werent from a very distinguished family in virginia. They lived at berkley plantation on the james river. President harrison and Benjamin Harrison was the son except for the bushes, would be the only son of a because that was his grandfather, not his father that but the grandfathers father had signed the declaration of independence. Edith mayo right, a virginia signer. Dr. Seale one of the virginia signers. And berkeley, you can still see on the james river, open to the public. And they were a distinguished virginia family and in politics for years and years. And when william Henry Harrison went to be inaugurated, he went to berkeley, where he had been born. I dont know whether Benjamin Harrison ever went, but he was very conscious of being the grandson of a founder i mean, the greatgreatgrandson of a founder and the grandson of a president. Susan swain okay. Just to summarize that, then there have been two fatherson combinations, the adams and the bushes, and this was the only grandfathergrandson dr. Seale yeah, exactly clarify that, right. Susan swain in the white house history. So edith mayo and the campaign Benjamin Harrisons campaign was all about little tippecanoe or young tippecanoe. Dr. Seale you saw the log cabin in the picture. Edith mayo right, and that had been his grandfathers campaign slogan. And also, there was something about hes you know, he fits his grandfathers hat, so you saw lots of hats as a, you know, campaign device during harrisons campaign. Susan swain Gary Robinson asks on twitter, did carolines interest in history and the presidency fuel desires for her to be the dar thats the daughters of the American Republic president or vice versa . Now, to answer that question its interesting that she took on the role as the president general of the dar. Dr. Seale now, theres a story there. Susan swain i thought there would be. Dr. Seale the dar is always misunderstood. The dar was founded by working women who were supporting themselves, their children perhaps whatever. There were four major ones and many others. It was founded in the fall of 1890. And for some way, Caroline Harrison became involved probably because of all the 1789 centennial stuff, centennial of washingtons inauguration. So they persuaded her to be first president. And she made the first recorded address ever made by a first lady to their convention. The dar had a lot to do with working women who were in the field and not being treated like ladies, and with this edith mayo particularly in the Government Agencies in washington. Dr. Seale yes. And when they showed dissent from the revolution, you know, im just as good as you are, or however you want to say it. But mrs. Harrison saw political promise in it, and she is the one that thought the dar ought to be political. They never intended that. And they met in the blue room at their first meeting. And she told them how to do it. Susan swain but it was a working job, it looked like. It was busy. It required a lot of energy on her part. Dr. Seale i think it did, and i think she had a lot of support though, the founders themselves. Susan swain could we imagine the first lady today taking on a role like this . Dr. Seale could, yeah. I could. Shes too busy, for one thing, but edith mayo it would depend on how overtly political people would think it was, but i could certainly imagine somebody doing Something Like that today. Susan swain james bowen to clarify, he asks, didnt Caroline Harrison start the dar . The answer is no, but she dr. Seale no, it was a group of working women. Susan swain but she agreed to run it and brought it to high prominence. Dr. Seale she was fascinated by the idea. Edith mayo gave it visibility legitimacy, a place to meet, helped sort of smooth over the political differences within the group, you know, people wanting different offices and so forth. The answer is no, but she dr. Seale no, it was a group of working women. Susan swain but she agreed to run it and brought it to high so by taking the president general position, she sort of quelled a lot of that, you know, i want the position, i want the position kind of thing. Susan swain what was happening overall with the Womens Movement . Women still dont have the right to vote in this country at this point. Edith mayo they do not have the right to vote. The Suffrage Movement was finally coming together in 1890, after having been split since the end of the civil war. One group wanted to go the constitutional route. The other group wanted to have it done state by state, in other words, a states rights approach. And theyd fought each other for a generation, and finally, in 1890, they had a meeting in washington in 1888 and decided to unify the Suffrage Movement. So that was going on at the national level. As i mentioned before, the Home Economics Movement Began in 1890. The Club Movement had progressed from local and state groups to National Groups in 1890. You have the white clubs, the black clubs, the jewish womens clubs, and they all get started in the early 90s. So the women are really beginning to organize and lobby very loudly for womens progress. Susan swain harold is in new milford, connecticut. Hi, harold, your question . Harold yes, thank you very much for this wonderful series. I was just wondering if your guests know anything you were discussing the China Services at the white house. Do you know anything about the silver collections and how both the hollowware and the flatware were being developed at the white house . And lastly, when did lenox china begin its first production for the white house, if you know . Thank you so much, and thank you for a great series. Edith mayo well, i can answer the question about the lenox china. That was the Wilson Administration. Up until that time, there had been no ceramic manufacturer that could equal the quality of european ceramics. And so almost all of the 19th century and even some of the early 20th century chinaware that was ordered for the white house was from france, except for that of theodore and edith roosevelt, and they used wedgwood. But it wasnt until the Wilson Administration that lenox was producing the kind of ceramic ware that they felt was proper for the white house. And that was the first order from lenox. Dr. Seale now, on the silver front, its a strange story. Silver, big orders of silver such as the white house in the first the earliest since james monroes, came in trunks, with trays, and you had little depressions in there where a knife would fit exactly here. So if you have a dozen knives, theyd be in a fan or a line. So many spoons and these trays would come out. So when it was all washed after dinner, you could look at the trays, and if there wasnt a hole or a vacant place, it was all there. It lasted all those years through the 19th century, and there were increases, but they had all the trunks. Mrs. William howard taft went on one of those lesser tour than mrs. Harrison, but a tour of the storage rooms that bill allman was talking about, and she saw those dirty old trunks, as she said. So she had the silver taken out and put in drawers, and like anyone does at home today, and had the trunks thrown away and the silver decimated and just would begin to go out with the garbage. A lot of it remains, but, you know, you began to lose it, if you cant count it. One of those lesser tour than mrs. Harrison, but a tour of the storage rooms that bill Allman Susan Swain edi looks pained at the thought. Edith mayo yeah, that is painful. Sort of like the decayed furnishings they also found at the white house for years and years, all these things that were thought to be out of date were sold at auction. They had huge auctions. And, you know, all of this marvelous stuff sort of migrated out of the white house. Susan swain sam is watching us in cherry hill, new jersey, that is. And youre on, sam. Hello, there. Now, i had a question about mrs. Harrisons ill health. So, first, let me begin by saying i am a huge Caroline Harrison fan. I have been following her for years. She is one of my absolute favorite first ladies. But i was wondering, did her ill health have any effect on the amount of work she was able to do in her Husbands Administration . Do you think it prevented her from taking on a more active role in the administration . Because she was a beautiful woman in every sense of the word, and i believe she could have had some great influence over him. Dr. Seale she had tuberculosis, and it she fought it and stayed busy. Tuberculosis and depression has to be added to it. And finally, she couldnt anymore, and i think it was just the last two months of her life that she really ailed. And she died in october. You know, everything in her life happened in october. She was born in october, she was married in october, and she died in october, and the dar was founded in october. So susan swain well, how about that . Well learn a little bit more about her death and the effect on the campaign, but before we leave her influences, theres a story about her support for Johns Hopkins that you need to tell. Edith mayo yes, okay. Well, the back story is that Johns Hopkins had built a hospital and was going to build a medical school with graduate education. And they built the hospital, but they ran out of money for the medical school. And so a young woman whose name was Mary Elizabeth garrett, who was the daughter of the owner of the baltimore and ohio railroad, had a group of women all of whom had their fathers on the board at Johns Hopkins university. And so they would meet regularly in a group they called the friday, not the friday club, the friday. And they referred to themselves in their memos and so forth as girls. Well, the girls decided to take on this project. Mary Elizabeth Garrett had been her fathers sort of righthand person. Shed traveled with him, watched him make, as donald trump would say, the art of the deal. And so she was very aware that this was the time that they should tell Johns Hopkins that they would raise the money that was needed for this medical school if the medical school would admit women on the same equal basis as men. Well, it took the men on the board a little aback and took them a while to sort of come around to the idea, but there were all these incredible women that she had contact with. And i will read you some of their names. They were mrs. Leland stanford susan swain of stanford university. Edith mayo of stanford university, and mrs. Potter palmer, whose husband had built the palmer house in chicago, julia ward howe, elizabeth blackwell, who was the first female doctor in the country Louisa Catherine adams, who i think was a granddaughter of the first Louisa Catherine, the first lady, m. Carey thomas, head of bryn mawr. So, anyway, these women decided that this was going to be their mission and they were going to raise 100,000 to help Johns Hopkins put up this medical school, and the men acquiesced and the women divided the country into 15 geographical regions and invited Caroline Harrison to be the person in charge of washington, d. C. , with all her connections and so forth. So she had several receptions in the white house. And, of course, this was wonderful publicity and legitimacy for this group of women and their mission to get women into the medical school. And she also went to baltimore several times was the guest of honor at the receptions that Mary Elizabeth garrett held. So it was a very successful kind of lobbying, if you will, and the women came through and raised the money. Susan swain and Caroline Harrison used the white house to advance the causes she was interested in. Edith mayo absolutely. Susan swain on our next video well learn more about that, as we once again visit the harrison home in indianapolis. Jennifer capps Caroline Harrison was one of the first first ladies to have her own project and go to congress to try to get money to renovate the white house. We have fabrics here that she used in her redecorating of the white house, and this particular one was used in the east room. And there are just lots of different fabrics here, little swatches, some nice velvets in different colors, and we have, you know, the pale greens which were used in her bedroom, i believe. You have gold and green here just all the different fabrics that were used when she was redecorating the white house, as well. You can see the different shades. And we have a little book that Francis Johnston was the photographer in the white house at that time, and she took a lot of photographs, and this little book is a compiling of those but it also has a description of the rooms and the colors that were used by mrs. Harrison along with then the photographs of the rooms once they were decorated. And then we have just lots of things that they save from those state dinners, and things like the ribbons here or bows. It actually has the white house image on there and then the date of the event, so this is mrs. Harrison, january 19, 1892. And different colors, different ribbons that they would use, so this ones from a february dinner in 1892. Its been untied, but we have the nice image of the white house at one end and the name and the event at the other end. We also have several place cards in our collection, as well. The card with the eagle, mrs. Harrison, january 20, 1891. We have another one for mrs. Mckee, the daughter, so we have executive mansion on the one side and the event, may 29 1891, on the other. And one more here for the president , for the january 20, 1891, event, as well. And then also just below this section, a lot of the ribbons, again, nice red, white and blue, these were all for the same event, but different colors, so we have the eagle on one end and the date, april 23, 1890, on the other in there for them, as well. Susan swain and thats how they entertained and also some of the Historic Preservation of the events in the white house, interesting to see. Back to telephone calls. Marge is watching us in charleston, south carolina. Hello, marge. Marge hello, what a wonderful program. I am so thrilled. My question might be a little premature, but, ms. Mayo, as the prime historian of the first ladies, can you, in your opinion, tell us which may have been the most despised, which may have been the most loved . And my second question is, is it entertained and also some of the Historic Preservation of the events in the white house, interesting to see. True nancy reagan bribed the