Any of our volunteers. You can also pick up a copy of the magazine if you dont have it already and find us online at smithsonianassociates. Org. Please take a moment to silence any mobile devices. Housee cspan in the. Onight just an additional note, our exit, generally we have one in the back and one to your right. You may have noticed there is a lot going on in the Ridley Center today, and that backdoor is blocked, so please, for your safety and others, use this door to your right as the exit. I think that is all the announcements i have for you, and again, thank you to cspan for being here today. Finally, let me tell you about our guest today, jonathan rosenberg. Jonathan rosenberg teaches 20th at the u. S. History Graduate Center of the university of new york. Receiving his phd in history from harvard, rosenberg, a graduate of julliard, worked as a Classical Musician. He is also the author of dangerous mines Classical Music in america from the great war to the cold war and it is available for sale and signing at the conclusion of the program. Please, without further ado, join me in welcoming jonathan rosenberg. [applause] dr. Rosenberg thanks. All right. Ok, is my microphone on . I think it is. Very good. Well, thank you all for coming out this afternoon. It is a pleasure to see you here. Its nice to be here in washington, and heartening to see that there is a group of people who are interested in Classical Music and want to hear someone discuss a book on the subject. I would like to begin by asking you to ponder a couple of matter . S does art what about artists . As we reflect upon American Society today, it can seem that part and the artist have very little impact on our lives, but i would like to tell you about a time, and it was not all that long ago, when art and artists were extraordinarily important. Im thinking specifically about Classical Music in the United States. I would like to take you back to the streets of new york city in the spring of 1958, may of that year. 100,000 new yorkers turned up to watch a tickertape parade clyburn,pianist dan who had recently won a tchaikovsky competition that was held in moscow a few weeks earlier. Cheer cascaded down on clyburn as the parade snaked its way up broadway. He said in the backseat waving to people, blowing kisses to the crowd. Women were reaching out to try to touch him. In moscow, a few weeks earlier, sawier Nikita Khrushchev what was to be an enthusiastic participant in this affair. Millions of americans saw the way he playfully chatted. They developed a nice relationship. He even famously gave clyburn a bear hug. When the pianist got back to the United States, clyburn mania swept the country. He was invited to the white house to meet with Dwight Eisenhower. It must be said, Dwight Eisenhower had no interest in Classical Music. When the press secretary was asked if clyburn would play during the visit, he said, i dont think so, and he did not. Read accounts of clyburns every move in newspapers and magazines. There were portrait opinion pieces, discussions of his just roots, articles on if his victory in moscow would somehow transform the u. S. Soviet relationship. Can one imagine such a thing today . With the overseas accomplishments of a Classical Musician capture the attention of americas political leaders or the countrys newspapers and magazines . Would we have a tickertape parade that would attract 100,000 delirious fans held for an artist with a gift for playing tchaikovsky . I think we know the answer to that is no, but in an earlier time, a pianists triumph could mesmerize the American People. Few would question the notion that Classical Music has little relevance in contemporary america. Its collection its connection to the larger culture is tenuous at best, leading magazines offer very little coverings of the goingson in the world of Classical Music. Newspapers supply little more than short reviews of concerts and recitals. Thenearly all americans, Classical Music landscape in the United States is alien terrain. Perhaps this group is an exception to that. Ut this was not always so dangerous melodies tells the story of an age when Classical Music occupied a permanent place, not only in the nations cultural life but in its political life as well. To tell that story, i explore the connection between the world of Classical Music in the United States and some of the crucial International Developments of the 20th century. Over many decades, i argue in the book, Classical Music achieved a degree of significance that the music had never known before and which it surely lacks today. But of course, the question is why did Classical Music once command such attention . From world war i to the cold war, the Classical Music community in the United States became entangled in international affairs. It was bound up in the two world wars that the United States fought against germany with the soviet union, an important ally in world war ii. It was entwined in emergence of italian and german fascism between the wars, and it would be caught up in americas struggle with the soviet union after 1945, a long, seemingly unending, cold war. These three countries germany, italy, and the soviet union where wellsprings of rich musical traditions and the birthplaces of distinguished musical figures, and americans had long admired both those traditions and the musicians who embodied them. It was difficult, therefore, for people in the United States to separate americas relations with germany, italy, and the soviet union from the music and musicians of those three lands. As a result, the Classical Musical community in the United States was drawn into the swirl of International Politics and the intersection between the Music Community and unfolding overseas events supplied Classical Music with a degree of political significance that i think is now difficult to comprehend. Dangerous melodies is filled with stories about instrumentalists, singers, conductors, and composers along with a tale of the work of important musical institutions in the United States symphony orchestras and Opera Companies. Importantly, it also looks at how listeners understood and responded to Classical Music. A key point in the book is that over many decades, americans imbued the music with political and ideological meaning. The world of Classical Music helped americans grapple with critical questions in the life of the country. It helped them decide what was worth fighting for and why. It helped elucidate the meaning of democracy, freedom, and patriotism. It supplied insight into the nature of tierney and oppression, and Classical Music in the work of Classical Musicians helped americans reflect upon the countrys purpose in what was a dangerous century it supplied insight into the nature of tierney tyranny and oppression. According to one music college, music is not think nice to listen to. Instead, he rides, it is what we may get and what we make of it. He rights that people think through music and use it to decide who they are. I would suggest to you that for many decades, the American People did a great deal of thinking through music, and their reflections on Classical Music and on the birth of musicians and performing institutions allowed them to achieve a deeper understanding of americas place in the world. As i conducted research for this book, i came across some striking things i did not expect to find. That is almost inevitable when youre doing research on a book, but i really was struck by a couple of things that, as i say, were utterly unexpected. The first concerns an enduring debate on the relationship between art and politics in the United States. It was a dinner debate, and it pitted those who viewed Classical Music in highly nationalistic terms against possessing a more idealistic perspective. I call them the musical nationalists and the musical universalists. The musical nationalists saw the world is a perilous place. They were convinced that the act of listening to pieces by certain composers or attending performances by particular singers, instrumentalists, or conductors could somehow contaminate the country or even perhaps endanger the American People. Those moments when the country felt particularly vulnerable, the musical nationalists favored banning the music of certain composers or preventing certain artists from performing in the nations concert halls and opera houses. Unlike musical nationalists, universalists were convinced that art transcended politics and national rivalries. They believed music could act as a unifier, a force for uplift, perhaps even a catalyst for global cooperation. The musical universalists, not surprisingly saw Classical Music as a universal language, which could speak to all of humanitys hopes and dreams. For many years, the debate between the musical nationalists and musical universalists roiled in newspapers, magazines, and competing public pronouncements. The passion that characterized this public wrangling heightened Classical Musics political significance across the country. A couple of other things i did not expect to find as i researched dangerous melodies after all, it is a book about the history of Classical Music. What in a sense uncovered were two vital aspects of 20thcentury music what i, in a sense, uncovered. Consequently, dangerous melodies is not just a history of Classical Music in the United States. It also reveals how the United States became more assertive in World Politics in the 20th century. And how the American People experienced a growing sense of distress over the threat posed by antidemocratic rulers. Kaiser wilhelm, benito mussolini, at off hitlers, stalin and his soviet successors and his hitler, stalin soviet successors. I would like to turn to the meat of the book and look at a couple of important episodes in this history. I would like to begin by turning to the First World War, which began in the summer of 1914. The u. S. Entered the war in 1917. Wars can do peculiar things to societies. World war i was no exception. It caused unsavory attitudes to bubble to the surface of american life. The german state and its people were portrayed in barbaric terms. Germanamericans and all things german ultimately would be scorned in this country. The german language was no longer taught in schools. German books were removed from library shelves. There were book burnings in america of german language books. More trivially, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage. Hamburgers, liberty steak. German measles, yes, liberty measles. But more seriously, germans were tarred and feathered. They were beaten. A drunken mob lynched a german labor in a small town in illinois a german laborer. German musicians did not escape the fury. Concert halls became a battleground, a battleground upon which ethnic animosity and patriotic aspirations would be contested. It is worth keeping in mind that in this period, late 19th, early 20 century, the sort of culture of Classical Music in the United States was really quite teutonic. It was dramatic. Rehearsal of u. S. Orchestras in this period took place in germany. The majority of orchestral repertoire that was performed was german. Most conductors were german, a large number of musicians were german. Drawn into all of this antigerman sentiment in the country, music did. Many believed the american war effort could be fortified by dictating who could conduct, who could perform, and what could be played. I would like to turn to boston, which was a home at that time to one of the finest symphony orchestras in the United States. It still is one of the great orchestras in the country. The music director at that time was german born. He was one of the worlds most celebrated conductors. His problems began when it was alleged that he had refused to play the starspangled banner at a concert in providence, ofde island, in october 1917. The fact was that he had not been informed of the request to play the piece that evening. The orchestra did not have the music with them. They were not prepared to play it, and it was not played. Things quickly spiral downward. Became a national phenomenon. It was widely covered in the press for a considerable period of time. In philadelphia, theater roosevelt said, any man who refuses to play the starspangled banner in this time of crisis should be forced to pack up and return to the country he came from. In baltimore, a boston symphony concert they were on the road doing a little tour a boston symphony concert was canceled when it was feared a riot might. Orrupt might erupt a large rally was held anyway, led by a politician there. Muck rang out at the rally. It was a vicious scene. I describe it in some detail in the book. Karlw york, carl muck muck became the target of a Toxic Campaign to keep him off the stage. The effort failed. He performed a few concerts there. They were well reviewed. There were Police Officers stationed in the concert hall. Mucks fate was hardly secure. Back in boston on the night of march 20 5, 19 18, he was arrested. He was not charged with any crime. He was hauled off to the local jail and a few weeks later, he would be shipped off to a place called Fort Oglethorpe in georgia, which was a place that held german prisoners. Not necessarily war prisoners but germans who lived in the United States. The u. S. Government labeled muck a dangerous enemy alien, and he would spend the rest of the war in this prison camp along with several thousand along with several other german aliens, many of whom were musicians. The book has much more on the including his, love affair with a young singer, which became public after his arrest and further inflamed the situation. Authorities accused him of espionage. There are a number of allegations against him. He was said to have signaled german vessels at sea from a mer seaside college cottage he had on the coast. Muck was no spy. There was no merit to the allegations. He was a faithless husband but not a spy. After the war, he was deported, never to return to the United States. Throughout the country, german music and german musicians were the object of antigerman hatred. In new york city in the 19171918 concert season, no german opera would be performed. German singers were fired. The opera house had become an extension of the battlefield. A band was also placed on orchestral pieces by living german composers. Opposed theome who decision. They thought it was completely foolish. These were mainly the musical universalists. One publication said this notion of banning the music by all living german composers was absurd. After all, the publication claimed, if strauss were to die tomorrow, his music would suddenly become acceptable. How silly is that . These sorts of bands, though, were nationwide. The music of living german composers was a special target. Wagner operas were also banned. In the city of pittsburgh, all german music completely was proscribed. Cincinnati had a very distinguished conductor, an austrian. He was arrested and imprisoned, sent to the same prison camp as muck. He committed no crime. It was vaguely reported he had said some antiamerican things at social gatherings. In chicago, several german musicians in the orchestra were dismissed. Again, they were charged with no crimes. The chicago symphony had a very distinguished printable cellist. He was stink which principal cellist. He was dismissed after he was accused of adding obscene lyrics to the starspangled banner. He also refused to stand up during the performance of the marseilles. He was asked why. He said, i could not stand and continue to play my cello. I will not go into it in detail today, but the book goes into it in considerable detail. In the fall of 1919, 1 year after the war ended, blood was shed and gunfire rang out on the east side of new york city when violent protests erupted over performances of german opera and operetta by a new opera company. That company was soon forbidden from offering new yorkers german opera. In effect, there were riots on the streets of new york over this. This was a year after the end of the war. Gradually, over the next few years, german music would be hurt again. Germany had been tamed in the war, and its music again soothed and inspired the American People. By the 1930s, developments in germany again aroused concern. In 1936, the most famous conductor in the country decided he was going to step down from his post at the new York Philharmonic. The big question was who was going to replace toscanini . The matter of replacing him became tangled very quickly in foreign affairs. German conductor was a top the list of successors. He and toscanini were arguably the most distinguished conductors in the world. He led the berlin philharmonic. When the new York Philharmonic announced that he had agreed to succeed toscanini, the story received fevers feverish National Press coverage. An artist who could be linked to the nazi regime, and many people did exactly that, was an unappealing prospect to say the least. People were convinced that his actions starting when hitlers came to power made him an entirely unsavory figure. He had remained in nazi germany to work under hitlers. Almost immediately, new york beganrmonic subscribers canceling their subscriptions to the following year. A Jewish Business leader called it unthinkable to appoint an official of the nazi government to lead this august musical organization. Became question really to what extent he was a supporter of and complicit in the policies of nazi germany. Heartfelt letters appeared in inal newspapers and actually newspapers in other parts of the country as well. In the New York Times, a woman said as a member of the race which they abuse, im stunned that this sanctuary of music in been successfully invaded by the hordes of hitlers. Keep in mind, this is 1936, so this is before the start of the Second World War, but not everyone agreed. There were those who argued again, here, we have the musical he hadalists that acted honorably, was not a member of the nazi party. There was some evidence that suggested his opposition to hitlers. He refused, at least for a time, to dismiss jews from the philharmonic, and it was said by some that music and politics should be kept apart. Many, of course, rejected this notion out of hand. Highest u. S. The official of a government which had relegated musical art to the gutter. The rhetoric was quite intense back and forth. Finally, responding to the ferocious opposition that was boiling in new york, he withdrew his acceptance. His cable was both highminded and patronizing. Controversies disagreeable to me, not politician but exponent of german music which belongs to all humanity regardless of politics. By and large, his decision not to come to the United States certainly met with a National Reaction and most publications were quite pleased that he had decided not to come. Time magazine trumpeted in a headline nazi stays home. His fate had been sealed by the irate opposition among those who had refused to support an artist whose ties to a malevolent regime were questionable at best and possibly worse than that. I will in a few minutes come back to revisit the question when something happens after world war ii which resembles this set of developments in the 1930s. But i would like to say a few things now about the Second World War. During world war ii, americans witnessed a powerful illustration of musics capacity sofortify the war effort performance of russian composition became the most sensational Classical Music story of the war years. Im speaking about the countrys encounter with the shostakovich seventh symphony. This happened in 1942 when it was premiered in the United States, and this makes clear how music and politics were intertwined. In june of that year, 19 42, nbc announced that the seventh symphony would receive its american premiere in a july led by toscanini. The nbc symphony was his orchestra. The concert would be heard by millions of people across the country on nbc stations. It would ultimately be broadcast on shortwave facilities around the world, and adding weight to the event was the fact that the symphony had been composed by an artist from the soviet union, which was, of course, a crucial wartime ally. The peace meshed with the u. S. Governments desire to fortify washington andn moscow. The press release captured the drama of the moment, noting the piece had been composed by shostakovich while he was living under the flame and fire of the nazi attack on leningrad. Nbc said the symphony was inspired by the soviets repulsion of the nazi hordes at leningrad. Shostakovich was living with his family in leningrad and compose a few movements of the symphony while he was there. Theuly 19, 1942, shostakovich seven received its u. S. Premiere. As i said, it was heard by millions of people, and im going to ask the person upstairs to play an excerpt it is a short excerpt of this piece. This is an actual performance from july 1942, so why dont you listen to a minute or so of that . We listen to a minute or so of that . After rosenberg dr. Rosenberg thank you. My conducting skills are somewhat limited. Was listened to widely in the country. It was covered widely by the press, and it was preceded by highly political remarks that contrasted german brutality with russian heroism and american generosity. Listeners were told that the finale of the work would hail the ultimate victory of light over darkness, of humanity over timesm. The cover of magazine pictured a stern faced shostakovich in a wartime a fire marshals helmet, staring into the distance with burned out buildings in the background. Event that,ational as i said, millions of people were aware of, millions of people in a sense participated in. And shostakovich and his seventh symphony remained in the news after the july, 1942 premier. Why . Toward the end of the summer and into the fall, leading orchestras around the country gave their own premieres of the symphony. It was performed in boston, cleveland, chicago, washington, minneapolis, and out in california. The piece became a nationwide phenomenon. Thousands of people were listening in local concert halls, the press was covering it. In cleveland, a distinguished conductor said the performance was not just one of the greatest musical events of years, one of the greatest political events. The los angeles philharmonic played the work in october. Performances, the first was in their auditorium in the city, and the second for thousands of soldiers at a desert army base. Actor Edward G Robinson supplied opening remarks. If i were back teaching at my college, i would have to explain who he was, i think probably many of you will recall who he was. He supplied the opening remarks and said the following downen youse mugs, pipe for the doings. He then described how shostakovich was a hero and composed the peace during a siege of leningrad and the l. A. Times declared that the soldiers were enthralled and the musical spirit of war came to cap the land newsweek claimed the whole world knows about demetri shostakovich. I think it is difficult today to imagine a piece of Classical Music taking on such political meeting meaning. It is almost impossible to imagine. In 1945 with the surrender of germany and japan, a new era marked by unprecedented challenges and in addressing possibilities again to take shape. For the United States, the new age into to a fundamentally different orientation toward the world. Many musicians in the u. S. Embraced the idea that there already would be able to that their art would be able to contribute to a new world. Despite this, controversies erected erupted. Even after the nazi threat was gone, the prospect of certain artists coming to america to perform, particularly those who were seen as supporting or sympathizing with hitlers, cast a pall over the American Music scene. Given what naziism had perpetrated across europe, many believed that with those whose suspect,ehavior was there was no compromise. Moreover, americas distress over totalitarianism intensified, driven by the fear of soviet communism, and there was a tendency to equate stalin with hitlers, and that made it important to grapple with the meaning of nazi is imputed naziism. Americans were again forced to grapple with a crucial question reminiscent of the First World War. Embracedtists who these ideas or associated with toxic regimes be banished . Emerged with intensity and stormy postwar debate that involved a number of people. I document this in the book. I will talk about one such person today. Their alleging wartime ties to naziism and pledge to come to the u. S. To perform created heated response among musicians, listeners, government officials, and thousands of citizens, who believed their presence on u. S. Soil would contaminate American Society. Aboutaid, i want to talk a specific controversy. In the summer of 1948, the chicago symphony, one of the invited ae country, conductor for the season. The belief that his activities were inseparable from those of the nazi regime would generate an impassioned response. Months toiated for get the particulars of the deal did eventually, and he was appointed in december of 1948 to come the following fall. But the public began to weigh income a particular jewish leaders and jewish organizations. I would like you to hear some of these voices. A misses joseph perlman, who represented 1250 member families of a local chicago synagogue noted that even if he wasnt thought to have been a collaborator, he had prostituted his art to the brutal nazi while other more principled artists fled to germany or refused to serve their nazi masters. , from theon berman Chicago Branch of the American Jewish congress, spoke out against the appointment. To the conductors contention he had helped save jews, berman said that he had repeatedly heard war criminals on trial make this very claim. He said saving a small number of jews did not excuse him from official active participation in a regime that murdered 6 million jews and other nonjews. Nazisnductor said the used him as a symbol of responsibility and culture. Other more anonymous people weighed in. From a manletter from the bronx. He said, i am an american citizen, a veteran who had served in the army for three years. I want to protest against allowing this nazi follower of hitlers to conduct in the United States. He was an ex soldier and claimed that the help of figures like this had helped taylor to kill millions, including, he said had helped hitlers to kill millions, including, he said , hundreds of thousands of soldiers. Others were scathing about the appointment. Decision tod his stop conducting in chicago was made out of respect for the thousands of americans who had died because of naziism. Toenstein said he refused work with anyone who had collaborated with hitlers, goering, or goebels. The conductoried for remaining in germany. As for the claim that he had protected jews for the nazi regime, rubenstein said this is unconfirmed. The officials of the chicago symphony began to question the wisdom of this decision. Maybe it wasnt such a good idea. To themmunicated this conductor and he pushed back. He pointed out that he had been cleared by courts in the in and berlin and vienna. He said i have a letter exonerating me by the u. S. Military government. One of the most revealing revealing observations, he said some artists refuse to collaborate with me today because i fought hitlers in his own country and of fighting him from abroad. Beyond the extraordinary claim that he had fought hitler from inside germany, he had first of all said he had saved the lives of jewish news missions, and it is worth pointing out that some in the u. S. Spoke up on his behalf. Again, these were people who embraced the ideas of musical universalism. The most wellknown was an american born jewish violinist. All germant of musicians, the conductor had put up the most resistance to the nazis. He had never joined the party, which was true, and he had done his best to protect jewish rescissions in the berlin philharmonic. Others spoke similarly. On january 14, 1949, a wartime the nazionic photo of leadership appears in the Chicago Daily news. Hierarchy. The nazi ofe days later, the 19th january, the newspaper published theief story stating that anductor was withdrawing will not be coming to chicago. Clearly the toxicity of german ideology continue to distress many who could not sever the connection between art and politics. Though nazi germany had disappeared in the spring of 1945, the malevolent character of naziism had impressed itself on the american mind. End did not mean its effect had simply evaporated. One selfdescribed jewish subscriber wrote to the staccato daily news Chicago Daily news in 1949, assessing the views of those who supported bringing the conductor to chicago. He was assessing specifically those who said they believed in and hectity of art, offered a chilling statement. A knife wielded by an artist will cut just as surely as those wielded by a butcher. It is true that the conductor was acquitted of nazi activities after the war by an allied tribunal that investigated the actions of leading figures in germany. Regarding that verdict, it is worth highlighting there is a great deal of commentary on this, the u. S. Press covered it extensively in 1946 one of the more astute writers was a New York Times journalist named delbert clark. Him, hebriefly quote rebuked the conductor in the New York Times, rebuked him for his behavior. Activity was punishable under the tribunals rules, lacking a moral sense was no crime. My perspective on this, for what it is worth, is that whatever the conductor hoped to accomplish by remaining in hitlers terminate, and he had certain things he imagined he was accomplishing, he certainly in my view, had allowed a depraved regime to use his undeniable artistic gifts in an attempt to achieve legitimacy in the eyes of the world. I think a convincing case can be made that he was complicit in the german governments plans to burnish its image. A position he could have avoided had he left the country at various points, particularly in the 1930s. Many people rejected the idea that an artist could remain outside politics, especially when working under a regime that recognized no boundary whatsoever between art and politics. Earlier, there were that demonstrate oncethe taint of naziism an artist was associated with it, was extraordinarily difficult to remove. For many, enduring memories made reconciliation impossible. But as i suggested, some were prepared to separate and artists gift from his or her relationship with naziism. These are obviously enormously difficult questions and perhaps we can talk about them afterwards. Toould like to turn now americas postwar of session with communism, which quickly swept across the landscape. In 1953, and upon his death, some u. S. Leaders began to conceptualize a new approach toward the soviet union, and approach that might create space for cultural initiatives. 1955, the53 and russians had increased the number of dance and Theater Companies and musical organizations they were sending out across the world to under countries to other countries. For american policymakers, this demonstrated moscows effort to convince the world of the soviet union possessed a rich creative culture, perhaps one worthy of emulation. Eisenhower was concerned. Quoting europeans has been taught that we are a race of materialists whose only diversions are golf, baseball, football, and horse racing. Cultural diplomacy became one perceptions. Such orchestral tours became part of u. S. Diplomacy. There were a number of tours i discussed in the book. The first orchestra to go to the soviet union was the boston in 1966. Symphony today im going to focus on the new York Philharmonic trip in 1959. It was sponsored by the u. S. Government and the orchestra went across europe, but they wound up in the soviet union. The conductor was leonard bernstein. For leonard bernstein, art and politics were intertwined. He wasnt sure the Classical Music could strengthen the bonds among people across the world. He was convinced that a superb orchestra could have a salutary impact on those made insecure by the eastwest competition. Bernstein was a musical parversalist are exelons excellence. U. S. Officials felt differently. They advocated a form of musical nationalism. They believe that symphony orchestras could help the u. S. Prevail in the eastwest struggle. Policymakers were convinced that a brilliant symphonic concert could fortify the nations position with its allies and provide sonic ammunition that could be directed against its adversaries. It was hoped that people overseas would recognize that america could do more than make bigbudget hollywood movies or bloated automobiles for suburbanites. Orchestras, symphony were sent across the world by the u. S. Government and the belief that violins and trumpets could help win the cold war. Every musician on the new York Philharmonic tour to the soviet union received a brochure, 28 pages long, entitled, so you are going to russia. Instructed american travelers how to prepare for the trip, and once there, how to behave. It may clear that americans visiting the soviet union were participants in a national mission. Tourists were instructed to learn relative fact and figures, not about the soviet union, but about the u. S. The average income, the size of american homes, the number of american telephones and televisions. He was also suggested that they bring along a glossy magazine. Why . To make soviet women in vs. Envious those who were well prepared wouldnt know they had done their best to spread the u. S. Message of goodwill. It has less to do with goodwill than showcasing the superiority of the american way of life. September 11,f 1959, bernstein would conduct orchestras farewell concept concert in moscow. It was a day filled with music. He had led a program that would be shown on American Television a few weeks later. In that daytime performance before an audience of muscovites , the philharmonic played the First Movement of the shostakovich, which we heard before. The first half of that bernsteine saw comparing american and russian music. He highlighted the similarities between russians and americans by demonstrating how their music had so much in common. Russians and americans even laughed at the same kind of jokes, he said, and he claimed that both countries had to continue to strengthen their relationship. There was no alternative, he believed. Ont was during the day september 11. That evening, the philharmonic played works by beethoven and shostakovich, and in attendance for the final concert were two giants of soviet culture, shostakovich and the writer boris pasternak, the author of the sovieto, whom government had recently reviled. Concert,ys before the a remarkable story unfolded behind the scenes. The disgraced pasternak was living in seclusion after being awarded the nobel prize for literature. He had accepted the award but then was expelled from the soviet Writers Union and the soviet authorities had forced him to turn down the prize. He was living in eternal exile tiered bernstein exile. Bernstein wanted to meet him and invited him to the september 11 counter. Pasternak accepted. He invited mr. And misses had aein, and they wonderful time and spoke about all sorts of things. Of september 11, that same evening, at the thrilling conclusion of the fifth symphony, the composer embraced leonard bernstein. Pasternak went backstage and said to the conductor, you have taken us up to heaven. Now we must return to earth. To thelharmonic visit soviet union was a dramatic moment in the history of cold war musical diplomacy. Leonard bernstein had articulated with great passion his belief and Classical Musics power to reshape International Relations for when the orchestra returned to the u. S. , they came to perform in washington for an audience of government officials and diplomats. Bernstein gave a speech at the National Press club. It reflected, i think, his extraordinary idealism. If military strength is the nations right arm, he said, culture is is left arm, closer to the heart. You can always touch people with music. And then he linked this idea to the u. S. Soviet relationship. Sharp,t argue with a g he said. Khrushchev would not know a bflat if he heard one. Then, millions of americans got to savor the excitement of the trip when the september 11 performance was shown on Cbs Television as part of a Ford Motor Company sponsored documentary. It really is an extraordinarily interesting cold war document. I wish i could show it to you, but the only place you can see it is in the new York Philharmonic archive. It does capture a powerful cold war episode. I discuss it at length in the book. Over many decades, Classical Music and those who performed, composed, listened to, and wrote about it, were drawn into and swept up by the whirlwind of americas global challenges. The music itself did not help the country overcome those challenges. I am not claiming that it did. What it did do, though, was offer americans a way to reflect upon the world. Countless people over many decades fixed their ears and eyes on the activities of Classical Musicians, on the work of composers, and on the labors of leading musical institutions like Opera Companies and great symphony orchestras. The music and the work of the performers helped the nation, as i suggested earlier, grapple with the meaning of patriotism, of loyalty, democracy, freedom, anny. Ey, tyr it helped americans reflect on the concepts of war and peace, which were central to the larger matter of americas role on the world stage. Andhe cold war waned threats became less fearsome, Classical Music became less wound up in world affairs. Up in world affairs. The musical role in political life largely disappeared. I would suggest that Classical Music remained meaningful. It still matter to musicians and es, but for the nation as a whole, Classical Music was not as consequential as it had been. Does terest melodies melodies does is music wasat inseparable from events around the world. Those wereme when convinced their safety might hinge on a piece of music. I spent a lot of years reading and researching for this book and i find it hard to contemplate that what millions of people felt at a concert hall or opera house was inseparable from the destiny of the u. S. And the wellbeing of the American People. Thank you very much. [applause] jonathan we are going to do some questions now, and i am going to move out here and do this. Anybody who would like to ask questions can do that. I am supposed to repeat the question and i will do my best to answer them. A fascinating subject. I was wondering what prompted you to write the book. Jonathan what prompted me to write the book, and you said it was a fascinating subject. I will establish that, too. [laughter] jonathan i suppose there are two facets of my life, i suppose there are more, but two i will divulge today. I was a Classical Musician, involved in that world for several years, and that world and Classical Music as a subject has always been deeply meaningful for me if youd i then became for me. Ofhen became a historian u. S. Foreign relations and foreign affairs. Books one earlier civil rights history that i think were interesting and may books, butimportant i wanted to find a way to meld these two things i am deeply interested in and i thought about a variety of ways to do that. I began doing the research and in time, i began to see how this could come together. There is in that sense, very much a personal dimension to this. Thank you. Think there is any greater degree or difference between the impact of Classical Music and other areas such as paintings or film or or things along that line . Do you think lascaux music can be distinguished Classical Music can be established from the others in terms of its nationalistic impact . Jonathan interesting question. Askought you were going to about Classical Music from jazz, which im happy to answer. You mentioned, say, painting. There is a very good book on art and theemporary way the u. S. Government sought to use contemporary art after world war ii to spread a positive american message. The it is conceivable name of the book is fallout shelters for the human spirit. I think it is conceivable that painting could serve that kind of purpose. I am not an expert on the other things. This, iexpert on suppose, but not the other are forms. Literature is a little more difficult because it has to be translated to another language and people have to absorb it in that language. Ic does whatever we think you can just go and play it and people can sit there and they dont need to necessarily be trained or read it, they can just experience it the way one doesnt a concert hall. What i would say to complicate this, and perhaps distress all not sure it was very effective. I dont think these concerts that happened after world war ii when symphony orchestras were sent around the world i dont have it in the talk but i discuss it in the book i dont think the impact of those concerts was nearly what people hoped it would be. In fact, i think in the end, the world was not changed all that much by these concerts. It is painful to admit, we would like to think these concerts transform the world. I dont think they did. I think they can tell us a lot about the world when we study it, they can tell us how people thought about the world and how they thought about adversaries and allies, but in terms of the Transformative Impact of Classical Music after world war ii with some of the stories are told, i think the impact, sad to say, is limited. There are those in the history profession who would disagree with that. That is my take and i discuss it at length in the book. That is an interesting question. [indiscernible]. Ther musical forms Louis Armstrong as an example. Jonathan the question was do i discuss other musical forms. Book touse it is a long begin with, but that raises interesting questions. Louis armstrong was sent by the u. S. Government to various places around the world along with other jazz artists during the cold war. That is quite an interesting question. , that was ats way more effective way to try to transform peoples attitudes. Jazz music, i think, has a different impact on people, or can, then Classical Music. It is a more transgressive kind of artform. Oddly, the u. S. Government sent armstrong over when the kind of music people in the soviet union wanted to hear was modern jazz, but i think it was extraordinarily interesting because there was a real hankering for american jazz in various parts of the world, and when the jazz artists were sent around the world, they did indeed, i think, have an impact, because it represented something distinctly american. When the u. S. Was sending classical symphony orchestras around the world, by and large, i dont want to say they were being bringing coals to newcastle. Whereas a jazz is distinctively american, and there are compelling issues having to do there are because a lot of african American Musicians. That is another worthy subject for discussion. I do not talk about it in this book, which is just about Classical Music, but it is darn interesting. Rostropovich took the 70 orchestra to moscow. The first time he had been there since his exile, and it was an event. There were two concerts in moscow, two in leningrad. Andprogram was shostakovich tchaikovsky, but it ended with Stars Stripes forever as an encore. I was wondering if you came across it in your research could jonathan your research. Jonathan the tours i looked at where the tours sponsored by the u. S. Government. Did it have government it was the Reagan Gorbachev era. There were many similar musical 1980s,uring the late and of the cold war. I think that would be worthy of another chapter in your next book. [laughter] jonathan my next book is on jazz musicians, but that is a good suggestion. This is about the rostropovich tour in 1990. At the inn of the book, i look at the new York Philharmonic trip to north korea. I do look at that, i think that was 2008. I also look at the trips to china by the philadelphia orchestra and boston symphony. The rostropovich experience i am sure would be worth knowing more about your about. They reflect the times, they dont change foreign policy. Jonathan that is a good point. The rhetoric of government officials and musicians would lead one to think they were trying to be transformative, not merely reflecting the times. The hope was that this would transform International Politics and transform attitudes toward one another. It did not change u. S. China relations, a reflected improvement. Jonathan i agree with you. Outside of the concert hall and radio broadcasts, Classical Music has also been used in hollywood movie scores. Particularly the music of lochner wagner. I was wondering if there was an attempt to keep german music out of movies during world war ii. Jonathan that is a good question, whether there was an attempt to keep german music out of movies during world war ii. I will begin by answering this way, i dont know enough about movies, but i am glad to have the opportunity to address this. During world war ii, in the United States, unlike world war i, german music was played, it was welcome, people enthused over it. There was not the same reaction to german music in the United States during the Second World War as had happened during the First World War. German music, for example, was was performed for war bond drives. No prescription of german music during the Second World War, with one exception. One complete upper was banned in new york, chicago and san francisco. But the prelude was played. In the u. S. Opular during world war ii. In the book i explain why that was so, that it was a striking departure from what had happened 20 years earlier. Yes . If history is destined to repeat itself, i am curious, is this a bygone era of Classical Music and its role in the u. S. As well as foreign diplomacy . Not, how to make this relevant today . Jonathan Classical Music or my book . [laughter] yes, and your subsequent atpter of i am looking the room. I know in Classical Music today, is not as homogeneous as it once was. How can Classical Music be used in a similar way, culturally full, the military disclosure, i am in the military the military is the right arm and music is the left arm . How can we bring these together . Or do you not see that happening . Jonathan i am better at looking at the past and predicting the future. Generally historians are not comfortable with the idea that history is the prelude to the future, or the past is prelude to the future. I dont mean to depress everyone, i would like to say that we could slap a few things together and Classical Music would become deeply relevant again. I dont see it happening. Maybe i am naturally pessimistic. I think there are things that have happened in the world of music generally in the world of American Culture that make it hard to imagine Classical Music can regain significance and consequential character it had in the time i am talking about. I simply dont see it happening. My wife is a violinist and a string teacher, so i hear all the time about young people and Classical Music and playing string instruments, and i was involved in it a long time ago. I think certainly the world has changed very much from the andod covered in that book, obviously anything is possible, but it is hard for me to imagine a pathway toward the renewed relevance of Classical Music. I dont really see it happening. I am sorry to be so gloomy. Thats why this is so interesting, it explains what it was like at a particular time, and i think from our vantage point, it seems rather unfathomable. I hope i have explained why it was that way. Recapture it, i am not sure. Yes . A Perfect Question after your gloomy comments. What do you think about yoyo mas travels around the world . You dont think that is transformative and bringing peace to the world . The transformative quality of yoyo ma has he contributed to bringing peace to the world . Ok. I have the highest, highest regard for yoyo ma, he is one of the great artists of our time, and i even have the highest regard for his aspirations, which are not dissimilar from many of the aspirations i was talking about. I have seen him in new york give talks about this stuff and it is unbelievably compelling and moving. You know, you want to believe that what he is doing is out there transforming the world. My response, and i do not mean to denigrate yoyo ma, i hope he he is abook, is remarkable musician. Can any Classical Musician transform the world in the way he would like to . I am not convinced it is possible. Anything is possible, i am just not convinced it is possible. Leonard bernstein was a remarkable communicator, an extraordinary musician, extraordinary in every sense of the work, and he was a person who had a mission to transform the world through Classical Music. He went on this trip in 1959, and there was another great episode when he takes the philharmonic to berlin in 1960. Shortly thereafter, the berlin in 1956, theg up boston 70 went to the soviet union and shortly thereafter, the soviets invaded hungary. The oldry hard musician in me wants to think that music can do these things. The historian in me looks of the world and says i am not sure i see it happening that way. I think it is noble that people are motivated by these dreams. I think they should keep trying to pursue them. If youi think asked me if i think it is where we are going, the world does not look that peaceful to me today, although it probably is more peaceful than 70 years ago. I think Classical Musics power to do this is probably somewhat limited, i think. Which doesnt mean it is not interesting to try to understand how people thought about it and what they believed it could accomplish. Yes . Were there any similar efforts to take Classical Music to japan . Jonathan yes. Any similar efforts to take Classical Music to japan. Certainly the u. S. Government sent orchestras to asia. Bernstein went to japan with the philharmonic in the early 1960s, i think it was. Bookt discuss it in the but orchestras were sent all over the world, and they were certainly sent to asia, including japan. And they were received with normas enthusiasm. Enormous with enthusiasm. The philharmonic had a remarkably interesting trip to latin america in 1958, which bernstein led. While i focus today on the soviet trip, orchestras were being sent all over the world in that period. Soviet trip, was there interaction between the musicians in both countries . Jonathan yes. Was there interaction between the musicians in both countries . On these trips, and i describe it in the book it is moving to read these accounts, there was a great deal of interaction between the decisions, soviet and American Musicians. That happened on all of the trips. Particularly the 1956 trip of the boston 70, the musicians got together, the soviet musicians loved the actual instruments the americans have because they were better quality instruments and they longed for those sort of instruments. There was a lot of interaction between musicians and even among American Musicians on regular people, there were streetcorner conversations. Historians, some who i disagree with a little bit over the last few years, who claim that these interactions are what is really important and we can see that in those interactions, something positive is happening. And i would agree, something positive is happening. I dont think it is something transformative. If musicians can talk to each other or people in the street, there is something positive going on, but i think the extent to which that is changing the world is a rather different kind of question. So yes, there were interactions. There are many questions i would like to ask, but i will limit it to one. I want to know to what extent appreciation for Classical Music has something to do with High School Education and whether Music Education is even conducted anymore in high school. Jonathan excellent question. I did not plant this man in the audience. [laughter] jonathan at the end of the book, whether the education has contributed to decrease in Classical Music, i absolutely viewed it is is. Thehe book winds down, in talk today i mentioned the decoupling from Classical Music in these developments was a consequence at least in part because of the waning of the cold war. But you are right to suggest that if we look at American Society today and want to understand, say, why Classical Music is much less relevant than it used to be, it is not my contention that it is only about things like the cold war. I mentioned in the book a few things. Lots of other forms of vernacular music emerge, rock, pop, which are pulling people away from it. I think Music Education, which is not what it used to be viewed you are not exposing to be. You are not exposing small children and middle School Children and high School Children to Classical Music as i was exposed in high school. Havewill undoubtedly consequences in our own time. The distraction of television and Digital Culture plays havoc with all sorts of things, not least Classical Music. Aassical music, when you are child and exposed to it, it requires a certain focus, and a iness. R these things i think have been devalued by Digital Culture. My phone is off at the moment, but you understand, we are living in a world that is so fundamentally different from even when i grew up, and i think Classical Music has been adversely affected by all of these distractions that young people are exposed to. To follow up on that, we know about the decline of the print press, but journalists from the New York Times will tell you they reach a larger audience today thanks to online distribution. For Classical Musicians, for spotify and other apps, if Classical Musicians in Classical Music, despite the dwindling attendance in symphony halls, is not reaching a larger worldwide audience. Jonathan thats an interesting question, if Classical Music is reaching a wider audience because of g digital technology. The first thing i would say by way of a copout is that the book really is a book about the history of that period, not about the present, but nevertheless. I dont know the statistics because i wasnt studying the contemporary state of Classical Music but there is a lot of Classical Music out there and lots of people are listening to it. I go to a lot of concerts and the people are usually on the older side. But certainly people are listening to Classical Music through various means and mechanisms. Speakguess if i were to directly to that point with , there maythe book be lots of people listening to it, but it is not as consequential. Greatnnection between events, and events that are central to the life of the country, and Classical Music, simply is not there anymore. The attendanceat rates are in concert halls across america, maybe they are quite high, but i know there are certainly many orchestras that are struggling financially, even great and famous ones. What interested me in this book was looking at the centrality in american life. Not so much in terms of how many people are listening or in a concert hall. One of the things to me that was interesting was there are lots of people scattered throughout this book who are not particularly interested, they were not Classical Music devotees, but the music drew them in because the music became involved in world wars and fascism and the cold war. You have thousands of soldiers rioting outside an opera house in new york city in 1919. They probably were not Classical Music lovers. They were energized and animated by the music in a different sort of way. I just think if you are trying to make a living, dollar and cents, selling your artistic talents jonathan it is hard to make a living as a Classical Musician these days. There may be other modalities to do it, but it is an interesting thing to contemplate certainly. I was just wondering if in the course of the book you explored the investment from the u. S. Government in all of these programs from the First World War and through the cold war. Jonathan if i explore the investment of the u. S. Government . About the investment of the u. S. Government. How they could do these programs and send orchestras and the investment in the arts in general. Jonathan well, it really starts after world war ii, it starts in the 1950s. I do document in the book the legislation that was passed, initially a few Million Dollars a year. There were laws passed, legislation having to do with 1954, 55, 50omacy, six, and that is when the funding begins. The funding is at its height in the cold war and it begins to peter out as the cold war becomes less central to american diplomacy. Certainly with respect to Classical Music. In fact, some of the tours, even in the late 60s and 70s, they become joint ventures, privatepublic partnerships in terms of funding. But in the 1950s, when this really starts, the u. S. Government go all in they are able to send all in. Orchestrasle to send for a number of years until it begins to wane in the midtolate 1950s and into the 1970s. 1960s and into the 1970s. Thank you. [applause] sunday on American History tv on cspan3, the 1999 interview with the late senator robert byrd prior to the impeachment trial of president clinton. We have a great body of evidence before us. Much of which is sworn testimony already. Crossexamined, but it would be possible, in my own mind, for us to conduct a trial without having witnesses called. Sunday at 9 00 p. M. Eastern on American History tv on cspan3. Our cspan cities tour takes American History tv on the road ea