Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Presidency Woodrow Wilsons Legacy On Race 20240713

I am looking for John Milton Cooper. Where is he . What are you doing in the back . For anyone who has not heard of John Milton Cooper, shame on you. He wrote an awardwinning biography of Woodrow Wilson and he has been enormously helpful to us over the years appearing many times but also helping us npack the issues around Woodrow Wilson. In 1978, when the Wilson Center was 10 years old, we were charged by congress with creating a Hubert Humphrey fellowship in social and political thought. Good idea. Ae idea was that distinguished scholar or speech. N would give a this, when the mood in washington is so grim, he was always optimistic. Something i remember and cherish. Years buten us a few we are very proud today to host the Hubert Humphrey memorial lecture and have a pointed and distinguished scholar, dr. Jonathan holloway, as our first humphrey fellow. Another special guest is hubert trisreys nice, and howard tani, who has built a career working at the department of congress, several universities, and her own firm. About also writing a book uncle hubert i know that is what you called him and his sister, whom i know, and who is mother. Ive a story about Hubert Humphrey. This was before the Wilson Center existed. And i had worked in washington that summer as a College Intern at what was called the Young Democrats of america. That fall i was the cohead of the Young Democrats at smith college. Our uppityness, invited Hubert Humphrey to visit the campus. I got proof. [laughter] thisre unable to enlarge you can see it perfectly. [laughter] humphrey. Ys, johnson the little face there is not forest gump it is someone called aney lakes. Jne i was invited to attend the inauguration include the inaugural ball. Think about that as a college kid. Which came just before my winter exams. I a fit of responsibility, turned down the invitation so that i could study more. Thes sad to miss festivities but did well that semester and it was a down payment on my political so back to the humphrey lecture. A a few month ago, lonnie bunch, who some of you know and all of you know of, who was the amazingly creative founder of the africanamerican museum just down the road and is the new secretary of the smithsonian institution, recommended the perfect person. I visited with him, and he said this is the person perfect person, dr. Jonathan holloway. Dr. Holloway spent nearly two decades at yale and was dean of the college. He also served as the head of calhoun college, now renamed grace hopper college. And was a professor of African American studies at yale. He joined northwestern as provost and professor of history and africanamerican studies three years ago. In the time since dr. Holloway agreed to join us today, he has been appointed president of rutgers university. You can applaud. [applause] which is a small college, about 20 miles down the road from princeton, where Woodrow Wilson spent the last 20 years of his academic career. Clearly this is a very high honor, and we all congratulate you. Dr. Holloways acclaimed research on black intellectual history make same, as i said, the perfect person to address todays difficult subject, Woodrow Wilson and race. Over the decades the Wilson Center has not shied away from this topic, and we are well aware it continues to be controversial. But we will all learn something today. I know that i will, and i am really delighted that you have agreed to talk about Woodrow Wilson. Following dr. Holloways lecture, distinguished fellow blair ruble, who is right in the front row, will moderate a discussion with him. Blair ruble, previously our Vice President for programs, also founded and directed our institute for advanced russian studies. Blair now works on our sustainability project and is the author of a fantastic book, a seriously good book on the history of washington dc, entitled washington street, a biography. Please welcome markers president elect and our humphreys a lecture humphreys lecturer and follow, dr. Jonathan holloway. [applause] dr. Holloway thank you for that introduction. Thank you for finding your way here. I mean, this is not the simplest room to get into. I was given directions on three occasions and i was still sitting down like, which way am i going. Thank you all for coming here. Thank you president harman, your honor. Thank you to blair in advance for asking very easy questions. Thank you to casey for guiding me here in so many ways. For those who got here earlier, please know i extend great thanks to the tech team. Had quite a journey for 45 minutes for this accompanying powerpoint deck. And i must say, thank you, i hope, to John Boozman Cooper John Milton Cooper for coming. This really makes no sense that is i am up here and he is not. So, he really is the expert. I am something of opposer on this occasion of a poser on this occasion. I am honored to have been asked to be the 2020 humphrey fellow in social in social and clinical thought. Funny story about how i came to stand before you today. When i received the letter, i knew there would be some serious challenges about finding a time that would work, because microbial calendar is already a mess. I was considering putting my name in the hat for the wreckers rutgers position you just heard about. I did not know how that would come became my life. And because i was asked to speak in february, a uniquely busy time for africanamerican historians. I was prepared to decline the invitation, in fact. In fact, always dumb suggested i should decline the invitation. Until i saw that lonnie bunch had nominative be. She is not here but i will say, well played. She is one of my longestserving mentors, dating back to my second year in graduate school. That was likely enough to make me determined to find a date that would work. Further cementing my need to be here is that northwestern invited lonnie to serve as our Commencement Speaker last year. She accepted the invitation and a few months later was appointed secretary of the smithsonian. We quietly scrambled to get a backup speaker in case lonnie withdrew. To her credit she gave an amazing commencement address. Gave the address for days after starting as secretary of these missoni and. The smithsonian. Instead of saying hello, she said the only reason i came here is because of you. Flattering, absolutely. Maybe something else, certainly. I already knew i owed her for many things. I have to say that when i saw on the letter that he invited me, and that he started with his reading with what i just told you, i felt a little at the godfather making clear that one day, who knows when, i would be asked a favor. And here i am. The title of this talk as you see is history written and lighting, racial memories and the making of a nation. The main title of the talk is symbolic of what was functional. The symbolic aspect is a reference to a quote described it to wilson about his opinion of dw griffiths controversial 1915 film, the birth of a nation. The functional aspect of the title is a reference to the method of his talk itself. I was asked to speak about wilson and race. I took this to be an intentionally brought invitation that i could shape in any number of ways. Taking the invitation to heart, i decided to offer a sweep of the 20th century of the United States through a series of lightning strikes, as it were. A quick investigation revealed much larger political, culture that collectively tell us who we are as a people. This talk is certainly about wilson, but it more accurately about wilsons legacy as seen through a racial lens. It explores the way in which wilsons racial possibility shaped discourses, whose impact could be felt across the 20th century and continues to reverberate into the 21st. I will be limiting these letting strikes to a geography that runs along i95 and is about 3. 5 hours from beginning to end. Not my talk, just a geography. The distance between princeton, new jersey and washington dc. We start in princeton in the early 1900s, moved to washington for a bit, before returning to a contemporary princeton, and once more to d. C. For a framing consideration. Part one, princeton, writing safe spaces into history. Woodrow wilson was born aiden was born in virginia. He studied law at the university of virginia before switching to palooka science at johns hopkins. He taught before returning to princeton in 1890. 12 years later the Princeton Trustees appointed him president. A position he held until 1910. Wilsons record as princetons president is a precursor of sorts to his time in the white house. Wilson came into office as a reformer. He was determined to expand the size of the faculty, establish a graduate school, and reorganize the undergraduate experience while breaking up the universitys clubs because their leaders of ran counter to his pursuit of discipline. On these measures, his record is mixed. He remade the curriculum, creating a much richer economic environment and the process. He successfully grew the faculty and established models that remain in place today. However, the graduate School College was built while he was president , but its shaping contours were not what he intended. His efforts to reorganize housing to remake the eating club system, something any successful princeton president have also failed to do. They are too powerful to outmaneuver. Taking everything into consideration, wilson is appropriately hailed as one of the most important figures in princetons history. He accelerated the schools pace as it moved towards academic excellence, and at least signaled an intention to make the university a place of progressive reform. There is little debating these accomplishments. Theres little ambiguity about wilsons views on blacks on campus. Pardon me, what . No. Yes. [inaudible] dr. Holloway i should have warned you i use black slides. Where were we. There is little ambiguity concerning wilsons view on blacks on campus. In a letter to john rogers, the assistant secretary of the university, wilson wrote, the whole temporary and tradition of the place is such that no need is ever applied for admissions, and seems unlikely the question will ever seem practical reform. Five years leader wilson translated his philosophy into a more practical form when he responded directly to macarthur sullivan, an africanamerican applicant. It is altogether inadvisable for a colored man to enter princeton. Somewhat intent on splitting hairs might say wilson was not denying blacks into princeton, not like what we would see in the height of the Civil Rights Movement when he denied entrance to the mercy of alabama. Wilsons performances in these two quotes were a commitment to something more insidious. We have wilson quietly rewriting princetons history and in the second, we find him ensuring princeton would remain a safe space for white students because of his own act of erasure. Rewriting history. Wilson had been part of princetons dna since his undergraduate years. While policy was deeply involved in student organizations like the debating society, football, and baseball, most critical is the fact he was managing editor of the student newspaper. Put another way, he knew princetons social fabric and was aware of the topics of the day. His engagement with the school continued when he returned to the campus in 1890 to teach courses in clinical economy. Political economy. It strains the imagination to think wilson did not know about Abraham Parker denny, james monroe bulger, and Irvin Williams Langston Brown street, all africanamerican students who received masters degrees at the Princeton Theological Seminary soon after he joined the faculty. If you read back further, you see wilsons willful blindness extended to his undergraduate years, since james mccosh, princetons president , welcomed the occasional black student into his philosophy lectures in the 1870s. Then alumni wrote letters of protest and five students declared they would withdraw unless he removed a black student from the lecture. He refused to budge and the students withdrew. Four eventually returned. Wilson was a sophomore at princeton during this. A black presence at princeton was not unknown to him. It is clear that wilson was committed to a vision of princeton that wrote lack students out of its history. In 2016, a princeton archivist said it best. Quote, the act of remembering and forgetting princetons africanamerican alumni had consequences as generations of. Rince tony and came to see it it was wilsons princeton that came to predominate not only in memory, but in practice. What was motivating wilson to tell a story wilson was not the kind of racist to us about violence as a way of controlling resumed black impulses. His racism was more genteel and reflected his sensibility not advisable to bring the races together because it would be unfair to blacks, as they would not be able to keep up with a new, more rigorous princeton he was creating. Even placing that belief to the side, wilson appeared intent to build a princeton that was more come to bow to the increasing comfortable to the increasing number of southern white students who were returning to princeton after the madness of the war of northern aggression, and the racial expand mentation. Although southern whites were more familiar with africanamericans than northern, they were unprepared to accept them in social educational circles. Wilsons paternalism led him to believe blacks could not keep up, another reading suggests they were a threat to him. Keeping princeton white meant it would remain a safe space for students who held tightly to their presumptions that what was a normative was removed instead of an expression of a natural hierarchy. Washington, d. C. Ideology, policy, and absolution. Wilson resigned from the presidency in 1910 in order to run for the governorship of new jersey. He was elected that fall, carried forth on electorate who supported his antitrust and anticorruption ideas. Wilson was put into power by political machinery that believed it could control him. Within months of being put in office he forged his own path with reforms that hurt the democratic palooka machine. Political machine. Political leaders took note and in short order, wilson was being considered as a potential candidate for the u. S. President. Wilson of course won the 1912 election, carried into office by those who supported his new freedom domestic agenda. His agenda was an expansion of his reformist ideology that earned him the Governors Office two years earlier. A commitment to break up trusts, reform the banking system, conserve natural resources. There was nothing about securing justice for africanamericans. It no viable candidate could have that as an agenda. But wilson pledged his willingness and desire to deal with blacks fairly and justly. More specifically he vowed that he would be a president of the whole nation. He also told the bishop africanamericans could call on him for absolute fairness. My earnest wish is to see justice done to them in every manner. My sympathy with them is longstanding. These promises earned wilson an endorsement he needed from these black leaders as well as prominent figures. One believed wilson to be a scholar of fairness who would not seek further means of jim crow insult. However, black leaders like the new jersey machine before them, soon understood wilsons promises would either not be kept or would be interpreted in a way substantially different than what they thought. To these figures, wilsons new freedom agenda felt much like an older agenda keeping blacks in their social and political place. In retrospect, the indication that wilson would not make new reforms for africanamericans was there all along. His promise to the bishop was a case in point. When wilson said my wishes to see justice done in every matter and not merely grudging justice, it became evidence that wilson was true to his word. He spoke of fairness and a sympathy that emerge from familiarity, but fairness on whose grounds, and what was the nature of his racial familiarity. Answers to these questions are found in wilsons background. The administration he formed as president , and a broad view dissensions between the races he had already expressed at princeton. Wilson was the first southerner elected president since the civil war. While geography is not destiny, it informs a worldview. Wilson grew up in georgia and was involved in a system resisting the northern occupation of the south. It viewed reconstruction as a radical overstepping of federal authority, and was determined to restore southern racial fairness to wilson meant local customs and practices should be preserved to maintain the status quo. Northern carpetbaggers that allowed black men the right to vote were to be resisted at every turn. Fairness for southerners like wilson was not the kind of fairness black leaders sought. On the issue of familiarity, wilson was like any other white southerner. He came of age around black folk who interacted with him on a daily basis. These interactions were not peertopeer. He grew up in an environment with black servants. They were in a way familiar to him, but this familiarity was articulated through a racial hierarchy that insisted blacks belonged on a lower rung of societies ladder. Wilson was known for telling racially offensive jokes, a practice he carried into the cabinet. While at the crimson faculty, wilson described formally enslaved people as a host of dusty children put out of school. They were unschooled in selfcontrol and excited by a freedom they did not understand. Wilson brought these ideologies with him to washington. When he began to build his cabinet, he started to place southern politicians in key positions. He tapped people who play pivotal roles in the race riot of 1898, who believed that during reconstruction, quote, all the whites and are part of the country lived under a black and fearful cloud. We have to fight for the sunshine or liberty. He put people in office who declared that quote, the Democratic Party was the only palooka party that could be counted on to keep the negroe out, not only of its own ranks, but out of governmental affairs. And he put people in office who served in the ku klux klan. Wilson underscored his philosophies and supported the secretarys efforts to shape departments in the way they saw fit. On the surface this was an exceptional case of wilson was no innocent. He could have predicted his secretaries would quickly do what they too deemed fair antipathetic. They began to segregate the federal workforce. These changes were dictated at the local levels. There was no single type of discriminatory behavior. They also happen without a paper trail. Most likely because he secretaries felt there was no need to commit to paper that which was in the natural order of things. Changes range from a dramatic loss of Job Opportunities for blacks, to physical we organization of work space. Eric, who wrote the definitive history of this, described the ways in which black opportunities changed once wilsons regime took hold. He pointed out that barriers in conveniences and indignities propped up narrative promise of employment for all africanamericans. When comparing the four years of the Taft Administration that proceeded wilson and the first four years of wilson, the differences are stark. In the analysis, two thirds of black people in tafts years were promoted. Promotions dropped radically when wilson took office and were outpaced by demotions, which more than tripled. Adding was the cruel and haphazard nature of the it was not unusual in the first year for workers to leave the office on friday, only to return on monday with furniture dramatically rearranged, partitions erected, and whole rooms relocated. A historian offers a striking example. He says, some 300 black women employees in the bureau of printing and engraving returned from a week in november defined half of the womens dressing rooms converted into a colored only dining room. Integrating gene areas had horrified at the first lady. Sources suggest this implementation of jim crow came specifically at her request, at her behest. Regardless of the policies, black women who used the dining hall for years found the lunch table now opened out into commodes. Hundreds of black women were forced to eat in a chorus of flushing toilets and a dining room that now only accommodated 40. If a loss of opportunities and changes to the Physical Plant were not enough, the commitment to segregate the workforce involved acts of cultural pettiness. In the apartment of treasury, which had the letter summer a black civil servants, the secretary already order the separation of the races when he took things a step further. He ordered the black employees to not be considered for promotions, and required new forms of address for some department workers. Letters Going Forward to black workers were not to receive the standard address of sir or madam, nor to be signed, respectfully yours. Williamses determination to making change in the department of treasury, changing the way people worked, layout of the floor, the way people were addressed, was a reflection of deep commitment to make sure africanamericans stayed in their place. Wilson took no responsibility for the departments actions. It was a local matter. But as he wrote, wilson quote, sincerely believed this to be in blacks interest. Wilsons faith reaches back to his upbringing. In 1905, one of wilsons best friends, published a historical romance of the ku klux klan. This glorification of the klan and repudiation a black citizenship became the basis for deed and griffiths film the birth of a nation. He had remained in touch with wilson and admired the policies being deployed in washington. He wrote to wilson directly saying quote, the establishment of negroe men over white women has in the minds of many thoughtful men and women long been a series against the cleanness of our social life. The same sentiment is found throughout his book and is one of the narrative plot lines in griffiths film. The birth of a nation depicted reconstruction from a racist point of view. The climatic scenes of a newly freed man. A white woman who only avoids being raped by leaping off a cliff. She dies in her brothers arms. She retaliates by lynching a man and organizing the klan. From a technical standpoint, the film was unlike anything that had been on screen before. Due in part to its technological wizardry, the film was a smash. 22 sold out theaters, earning over 10 million in its first release. In some markets, they were able to charge moviegoers an unheard of 2. 00 to enter. The films special effects were not the only reason for the films success. Even though it went to Great Lengths to mythologize the klans founding. For many of its viewers, the film was an affirmation of what they already knew. Blacks cannot be civilized and are therefore incapable of the responsibilities of citizenship and black men could not control their sexual desires. Im going to share a clip. Cross your fingers that this works. Share a clip that captures a lot of the things i just mentioned. [video clip] part of the film success is due to the fact that it received Woodrow Wilsons enthusiastic endorsement. After a private screening in the white house, the first film shown in that building, wilson to as alleged to have declared it was written the title of my talk. The film was not universally admired. It earned the ire of the nc aacp. And they referred to it as three miles of filth. Grave injustice, pernicious morally, a fascination of a race and sowing the seeds of strife. The tone of the pamphlet. I quote from most of it i testify that i consider the birth of a nation improper and immoral and unjust for the colored people of the nation. The play would be unfit for public production since there is a suggestiveness about it of the kind which physicians know inc ites to crime with certain types of mines. The attack upon the negro is entirely unnecessary. In my judgment it is a deliberate attempt to humiliate 10 million american citizens and and portray them as nothing but beasts. The naacps efforts caught the attention of white house. Through his personal secretary, wilson tried to distance himself from the film. He agreed to the screening as a favor of an old friend the disagreed with the films argument in favor of racial violence. While historians do not know whether wilson said the films history was enlightening we do not take seriously his claims about the character of the film. Although wilson was opposed to lynching, he was approved of other things that drove the narrative. In a letter to wilson secretary, dixon wrote the real purpose of my phone was to revolutionize northern sentiments by a presentation of history that would transform every man into a good democrat. Later dixon would write to wilson saying this play is transforming this entire population to sympathetic southern voters. There will never be an issue with your segregation policy. These letersters are instructed to understand the real connection between the political on the cultural. For him, there was no mistaking the fact that the two way s of navigating the world informed one another. He viewed his book as part of a. Investment in stoking political change. Wilson was following a familiar script. Fehe and cutting criticism for encouraging segregation in the Civil Service system and he pointed to the department heads. Wilson didnt literally segregate the federal government, nor did he endorse the film. However, determining whether wilson was the architect is a case of splitting hairs. There is no mistaking the fact that wilson had a clear sense of the racial which ballacks were in the service of whites and that jim crow brought the rational order that was critical to wilsons ambitions for progressive reform. There is no mistaking the fact the idea that fueled the segregation of the federal workforce were ideas. That had consequences. Africanamerican lost their jobs because of wilsons worldview. Furthermore, the racial hire became normalized. One of the conclusions of a 1948 report on the persistence of segregation in washington made the point clear. Quoting. Ccolored people of washington have never recovered from the blow that start them in the time of Woodrow Wilson. The example has been one of exclusion and segregation in menial jobs. The material consequences of his film took root fomrmore quickly. The success of the film was directly tied to the resurgence of the ku klux klan in the late 1920s. A quick interlude. This is gordon parks very famous photograph, American Gothic featuring a scrub woman ella watson. The narrative of a blacks place with the american flags tells a larger and deeper story about blacks place in society. Princeton. Remembering history and community. Remembering the history and the community. It plays better on the page. Although, wilson explored the term of running for a third term, democrats advised against his seeking the nomination. He moved out of the white house in 1921. His health have been compromised for years and he failed to improve when he left office. He died in february 1924. Wilsons legacy lived on and remains vexing today. All president s are measured by the distance between the rhetoric and their policies. As an historian observes, wilson voiced a vision of american possibility much more expansive than the meannnesss he helped put into practice. The cap because wilson guided the country during the first world i, his rhetoric took on greater import and resonated for far more lovely than his predecessors did. While the promise of his vision was not met by sustained reality, wilsonss call for a universal the mission of right universal division of white was a promise with pursuing. In the fall of 2015, 100 years after wilson screened the birth of a nation i students expressed their anger over the distance between wilsons rhetoric and the fact that the university seemed unconcerned that the southern aspect of wilsons legacy and the lack of concern was manifested in the failure to recruit and support dunes and faculty from underrepresented minority groups. Support students and faculty from underrepresented minority groups. While this is a clear over supplication, the trustees recognized there needed to be a much more robust accounting of wilsons complex legacies and and created the Wilson Legacy review committee. Considering how the university should assess wilson with his, shrink after he left princeton and the ways in which his commitment to a racial hierarchy was out of line with the universitys modern vision. At the center of the debate was that fact that wilsons name adorned places of prestige throughout the campus. The Woodrow Wilson school of public and international affairs, which are wilson college, the Woodrow Wilson award, the professorship of english, the Woodrow Wilson Scholars Program and so on. In each instance, deploying wilsons name was a mark of high a steam. Even though some students declared that princeton had not changed since wilsons era, the fact of the matter is the university had changed. If belatedly in measurable ways. The measurement was mostly related in terms of demographic change over time. Women, racial, sexual, and religious minorities, international students, all were now regular members of the community. However, the vestiges of earlier ideology lingers. It wasnt just about Woodrow Wilson. His name was the most easily attach to the set of values that the university no longer it might. The Legacy Review Committee and knowledge this and made it clear it was committed to a university that was welcoming and inclusive. While the Committee Recommended that wilsons name remain attached to the various buildings and awards, it declared the princeton was obliged to be a more on the steward of wilsons legacies. Understandably, when talking about the princeton community, the report focused upon the student and faculty expenses. It also pointed to alumni and staff. This last group, merited the least amount of attention. Compared to the 17 time it referenced alumni. Further when talking about staff at the university, the report alluded to the contributions of administrative staff. One imagine the group being apprised of in the strait of assistance and Research Technicians and advisers. Left unmentioned for the staff who attended the lawns and cook the meals and fix the plumbing. While i do not have the racial demographics, it is a safe bet that africanamericans are at minimum disproportionatelly represented in that group. Entered the artist mario moore decided to paint 10 bluecollar princeton workers, a recognition of his own fathers efforts to support the family when he was growing up in detroit. All of moores subjects are black. Given the historic invisibility of black labor on college campuses, moores work was a declaration that princeton him to wrestle with the complexities of its past, it would do well to have an honest reckoning of the honest kwork that kept the university running. This is not a princeton image but a yale image. Can we dim the lights a little bit for the screen . This was found in archives at yale by the dean o ff art. It is just titled garden party. In the middle of the image, you find a black bartender. This is yale in the 1950s. There are women, but they are all attached to the men. And literally nobody paying attention to the bartender. It is a moment in time. This is more metaphorical than factual. You see all this whiteness in the garden and a sole black figure invisible until someone needs a drink. Moores work is a declaration would do well to have an honest recognition of the work that built the university. This is work that prison and when not have recognized at princeton or in the white house. One of the difficult truths is that his decision shaped the world around him but he never saw and did not deign to imagine. Some images from mario moores series. I will give princeton credit. Of the ten paintings, they bought three or four of them. It is a beautiful painting. He actually as the people he painted to tell him what they want, where they wanted to be depicted. Sometimes it was not of labor. Clyde sky high. Garfield. Several lifetimes. These are the titles that moore gave to each of the paintings. Part four. Washington, d. C. , the intimacy te legacies. The last observation, the distance between wilsons lived experiment on the way he affected the world around him, leads me to my most personal thoughts. Woodrow wilson was president of the United States from 1913 to 1921. For reasons i neither bother and he left a mark on the nation and the world. Africanamericans assessment of wilsons legacy is more compensated. His commitment to racial erasure at princeton contributed to a logic of the school that set homogenate heaity to be preserved. Means that generation of black workers encountered new obstacles to advance professionally, to provide for their families and pass on generational growth. I stand before you as someone who has benefited from the accumulation of social status because of my parents education and work as well as their parents education and work. That there is a caveat, and it is embodied in the work history of my paternal grandfather John Holloway. I never had the pleasure of meeting him but i know his story will. He entered Howard University school of law in the late 1920s. In his second year, the School Change the degree requirements and order to secure accreditation. His classmate encouraged them to join in a claim to be made whole, given that the School Changes terms without notice. Two Young Children at home and no guarantees the plaintiffs would win, he took a job working in the cafeteria. He became the captain of waiters in the Senate Dining room. This was a job with security, a rarity in black america what it was a job he found humiliating because his education suggested different future. He dedicated himself to his work and build relationships with congressman. Even secured his coveted appointment to west point for his son, my father, through his political connections. To my grandfathers dismay, his son forged his own path, one that took him into the air force office of candidate school four years later. A few years before i was born John Holloway was stricken with cancer. In 1965, he had no fight left in him and he passed away. His death affected the family but it also move leading figures to write letters. One of them kept in the family as a complicated treasure of some sort was a letter from Vice President of the United States Hubert Humphrey. On august 11, 1965, Vice President humphrey wrote the following to my grandmother. I was did we send to hear of the death of their husband john. Please let me extend to you my heartfelt 60s. Your husband was ymy heartfelt sympathies. He was known and loved by all in the senate. We all have lost a wonderful friend and one who is truly a credit to his race. He will be missed by all of us. After leaving air force in 1974, my father moved into the government as a chief of staff to the representative. He also served as a delegate to the Democratic Party in maryland. In other words, he is woven into the federal Democratic Party machine. His faith was challenged from time to time. On those occasions, humphreys letter came up as an example of the partys shortsightedness and its failure to recognize blacks. When my father would talk about the the letter, his anger would be evident. A credit to his race . One day, my father decided to confront humphrey. Humphrey had no recollection of the letter. But he di remember my grandfather and fondlyd so. Most likely someone else wrote the note of condolence. And posted the letter. Reasonable enough. If the ideas were not humphreys they were the ideas of those in his orbit. Placing my father a credit to his reace, was meant as a compliment but it was an unconscious about who the london what place. That is about the who along in what place. It is about policies they did not fueled the rearticulation of cultural views and the process continues. A nation is shaped by this kind of process. It is one of cultural visions tied to expressions of power and policy. To see the world in a particular way. When we think about what wilson we can say many things, so much is worthy of remembering. When we assess wilson to racial memory, however, we discovered his commitment to not see had consequences that extended well beyond his lifetime. I know that wilsons views did not personally derail my grandfathers professional aspirations but the logic informing the president s worldview fit neatly in a committing to maintain social and political order in which people could be a credit to the race while their humanity was stripped away. Thank you. [applause] im there. We have a few minutes. Im going to say we have 15 minutes. Im going to start the conversation, but then we tried to open it up. Get some questions and comments from the floor. Jonathan, i want to end up with your observation about who belongs in what place. And the impact wilson had not on White America but on africanamerican america. And this was a time when a generation you have written about, rather remarkable generation, and every aspect of American Life emerged from the africanamerican community. Iand sometimes it is referred to as the negro generation. It also is a generation was born more or less in the 1890s. They were comingofage directly during wilsons tenure as president. People like ralph langston hughes, locke, logan, hurston. It really turned out to be a very significant generation of people. And poart of what was driving them was clearly the desire to prove that they deserved to be in a certain place. Im wondering if you could say a few words about them and about the remarkable response to the cultural environment youre describing as a way of maybe rounding out the picture little bit. 15 minutes, huh . I wrote a book on the topic literally. Its interesting. You mentioned six names. This is really important related to the talk. All but one of them, were based in washington, d. C. And this is part of the complications, the tragedy, the frustration, whatever word you want to use of wilsonlegacy in d. C. There was already a really vibrant, not fully free, not fully independent black community but a very vibrant black community. A lot of the children of the people you mention went to dumbarton high school, which got decimated by theboard v. Board of education. One of those small ironies but black washington was a really remarkable place. It was a vibrant scene after new york city and the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s. Uc district, seventh and t, Howard University, etc. But, black washington. That is one of the reasons why wilson,s behavior with the administrator was so unsettling in d. C. Because he was a place, far from perfect, but he was a place where blacks had potential. Now, within black washington was all kinds of inter racial tensions that ran along class lines. But there was a sense of possibility in black washington you did not see in other places. So, when this re segregation order came in, that was a shock to a system. We are not talking about thousands of people. But the symbolic importance of washington in general is just, you know, is massive. Within black washington, not just in wilsons time but through fdrs, what became known as the black cabinet, to elevate a handful overly prominent people like ralph b unch, they became national figureheads a possibility. So, when we talk about the challenge of the legacy of wilsons segregation order, we are talking about more than anything else, the symbolic dmageamage that actually close doors a possibilities. For other generations who saw black washington real opportunity. Why dont we opened it up because time is limited. Im going to try to take a couple of questions and then we will come up to the floor. And we do have microphones. We will come down here to John Milton Cooper first. If youre thinking of questions, please let me know. I would like to add my congratulations for you become in the present along route one in central new jersey. I could, you know, friends, romans and countrymen, lend my o eme your ears. That is the famous line of one of the greatest con jobs in all of literature, of course. I think wilson, i have no defense whatever for the segregation policy, none at all. If you wanted something of an fun nation and this is something that might, my dear friend and i used to talk about he said he could understand why wilson would bow to this kind of thing, that these southern cabinet secretaries wanted to institute. He said, he had a southern base. He was a democrat with a southern base. Whats more, the great migration was just, just barely beginning. So, there was no yet africanamerican Political Base in the north or very little. So, that is just a plain political arithmetic involved. Wilson, wilson as a southerner, that is a very competent in question. He was an accidental version. Virginia. His parents had moved there from ohio. He had no american born grand parents. He grew up within this presbyterian world, which to some extent insulated him from the surrounding environment. And what i found very, very puzzling and frustrating was in trying to get into his early life and the sources on it are not as good as they are, for example, for theodore roosevelt. Africanamericans are invisible. And that awful scene from birth of a nation, wilson was a ckkid in Columbia South carolina, at that time. Two of his early biographers, who bless their hard work journalists, baker, never interviewed any of the black severance from there. Servants from there. The only one who did was William Allen white. I never found any notes. Extremely frustrated to me. Forgive me, one thing he did not mention about the princeton thing was his inauguration as president in 1902. Who did he say he gave the best speech at that inauguration . I confess i do not know. Booker t. Washington. Some of his southern relatives were scandalous. If i knew he would be here, i would not have come. One of his daughter said, even better than your speech, father . The mas, thats the seminary. And the question is, what is the college, what is the seminary on that . The other thing, birth of a nation. No, he did not say that. Sorry, i was a little taken aback when i saw history made by lightning. That was invented 20 years later. He never endorse the movie. You went to some length to try to find what the screen was like an interview the last surviving person whod been there. She said, the president seemed preoccupied and distracted and just left. He never endorsed it and later tried to on the grounds it would stir up too much. Hes complicated, and to me, i think wilson, the president he resembles most in this regard is jefferson. You had an awful record on race, and how do you balance it with all of the other great things . Thank you for all of the. At. You are right about booker t. Washington. Merits mention. But washington himself was incredibly complicated, thinking of the black communitys reception. We could go on and on in these ways. I do take your point. I hadnt thought, he is very much like jefferson in that regard. The important thing in this is where i think where princeton got through to its 20152016 conversations is to talk about this. That is the important thing. The crime is not to talk about it and pretend that everything is fine. They did the right thing by keeping the wilson name, he is too important institutional he. Institutionally. In this day and age, to talk about was in without saying at minimum he was really complicated. He did some things we dont support nobody did some great things, too. If you cant say that, i think you have ethically failed. And universities are Getting Better at being mature about this. Yale had its problems. Universities, it cuts across the nation. But i think they are being forced to grow up. Thank you for your comments. Anne, and well go out further in the room. Right here . The benefits of the front row. [laughter] id like to make a comment first and then ask you a question. First of all, congratulations on an outstanding lecture and im so glad it is going to be published because we all need and want to have a copy of it to balance out Woodrow Wilsons career and everybody knowing what he has done to mystically and internationally. I want to make a quick comment about your stating, or reading rather, Hubert Humphreys letter to your grandmother saying that your grandfather was a credit to his race. And when your grandfather worked in the Senate Dining room, my first comment is, carol king who you may know became the governor of the Virgin Islands used to work for uncle hubert. And uncle hubert was known for integrating the Senate Dining room because when he brought carol down to have lunch with him they would not let him into the dining room. Thats an historical fact. But my question is, are you aware of Hubert Humphreys own track record going back to the 1948 Democratic Convention in philadelphia where he offered the minority plank to the Democratic Party, the civil rights plank which would have cost truman his election to the presidency and win Strom Thurmond and others walked out. That same year, first of all the plague was adopted. In that same year, uncle hubert went to the United States senate in 1949, and he introduce civil rights legislation every single year until 1964 one4, when he was the floor leader of the Civil Rights Act and it got past. Got passed. I wasnt sure i understood your own feelings about Hubert Humphrey because i dont, his own education in Louisiana State university, where hes never understood institutionalized racism really and segregation, colored his whole political career. Are you aware of his own background on civil rights and basic human right . His background is amazing. Is is a part im sorry do not, clearly enough. This is the part that had my father vexed. That someone with humphreys track record could write this, becomes a very personal note that is saying all these wonderful things then goes sideways very quickly with the phrasing that sounding different, ill semper fi things for the sake of it. Different coming from a white mouth the needed going into a black ear. So my father was different coming from a white mouth then it did coming into a black year. Black ear. So my father was perplexed by that. Is this what hes actually thinking . I related, humphrey said i do not even know. Not that im an elected official but as a provost i sign lots of things that i glance over. Im sure that is what happens. But it is the phenomenon that is the issue. It is not about your uncle. His track record is pretty darn impressive, especially given, in doing that in 1948, that was breaking ground. Thank you. Dr. Holloway thank you. Ok, the gentleman back here. Just stand up. We will get you a microphone. Thank you very much for the lecture. I enjoyed it. Eric thompson. I have a twopart question i have for you in regards to Woodrow Wilson. One being, did he leave any hisies or anything about experience and his youth and everything . And the other part is, we are talking about the time part, jim crowe was very rampant during his presidency. Did he ever speak to that at all . How did he feel about the fact he was calling young black men to fight in world war i, and yet espouse these views and segregationist attitudes . Dr. Holloway i can speak to the latter part more to the former. Im not a wilson scholar. I want to be clear about it. The president sending off people to war, he is part of a long tradition. I mean, throughout history poor people fight wars. And people in terms of a polity who were on the edge of the polity are the people who fight wars, who were actually on the front lines. That is as true then as it is today. I did not know until six or seven years ago that people who were not citizens would sign up to serve as a fast track to gaining citizenship status. Some of them are being denied, which i think is deeply unethical. He is part of a longer tradition. It would be too simplistic for me to be outraged at wilson to for sending black troops off to die when he had done all of this racial discriminatory action. As a just being consistent president waging war. That is a different kind of issue. I think this is part of a tradition. Im assuming he left a tremendous mental documents, probably silences in different areas. But not the kind he is talking about. That is what i suspect. This is one of the frustrating things one of the interesting things of being an historian in the 21st century is, compared to my colleagues in the 19th and 18th and 17th, we have so much information, but of a certain type. On certain topics. In my field, working on africanamerican intellectual history, you run into and you mentioned it your commentary, you run into absences that are huge, gaping absences and youre stuck because you do not know where to find these things. Now, what is interesting is that historians working in my area have had to start turning to different kinds of resources to try to understand the black story. One very quick example. In williamsburg, 1970s, in the wake of the Civil Rights Movement, curators were determined to tell the story of black women. Black williamsburg. After all, half of the residents of williamsburg were africanamerican or black. But there is no record. Well, there is a turn in a how in how historians, museum scholars, started to analyze things. I mean modern historians. They started using archaeology and anthropology merging together in new and interesting kinds of ways. As there are more people coming into this field who had studied, say, western africa and its cultural resonances, places that prior to the 1970s scholars thought were trash heaps. Well, they looked at the architecture dig. Wait, that is the same pattern of socalled trash that you would see in a western african village. That is where the healer lives. Broken vials or different collections of bones or shells. What scholars began to realize is that the evidence of the black experience was all around them but they were not trained in how to see it. So, that is just an example. In that story of williamsburg has changed remarkably since then, but this is one of the historians who rely on paper really face. In my case, and overabundance of paper. What do i stop listening to . The paper trails end, and then you have to go to a different place to pull it down. That is, to me, the fun part. Other questions or comments . Dr. Holloway there is someone over here. Im susan irving. I was a student of johns and did all my work on a man called oswald garrison villard. I dont know if you are familiar with the book sinking in time. Dr. Holloway it sounds familiar. I strongly encourage anyone you are talking about the world he grew up in. It is not just when you grew up, it is when things became salient. When i would teach this concept of placement, it was a mixer of students at the kennedy school, i would ask them what their first formative political memory was. And, given my age, i could guarantee you they would say vietnam. I mean, this was in the 1980s. My first formative political memory was the ministers wife explaining the 1954 Supreme Court decision. Do you think we have the same humphrey . Bert they had met him as a Vice President defending vietnam. I had met them is a story my parents told. I mean, im not old enough to have been around in 1948. I would suggest as an addendum to your thinking about the world that he grew up in or the invisibility of whole groups of people, that you think about some of these uses of history lessons that developed. I think it helps us a lot. It just makes us clear. Anyway, i recommend it. Theres one war where it wasnt only the people on the outer, world war ii, fought by people of a lot of economic status is. The gentleman right there. Just wanted to point out that one thing that resonated with me was the connection between your grandfathers response to that note and early 20 Century Black 20thCentury Black responses to what was going on around them. I mean, maybe im reading this into it but i read your grandfather as being, feeling really indignant about what he saw in that letter. My recollection of early 20th century newspaper accounts where i have this recollection, early 20th century newspaper accounts of africanamericans around the country coming together for indignation meetings. And being indignant. And the concept of being indignant about what is going on, what is happening to them, i always, i found it very it made a great impression on me. I think that, given the fact, you say ideas have consequences. And the consequences these folks were seeing were not simply in day to day life, that they were seeing people being killed. It is a very violent era. He is not simply sitting in princeton thinking or not thinking or ignoring the consequences of violence and death. Death that affects other people and perhaps some milder response to that is the indignation that these folks who were getting together felt. And 50 years later, your grandfather felt. I mean, the connection in your lecture resonated with me. Dr. Holloway thanks for sharing that. There is we simplify so much in this country, and i have today in this lecture knowingly, just because it is the nature of the invitation to wilson and race. You can tell so many different kinds of stories. My book was a reference earlier about race and class in washington, d. C. And interracial class tensions. Lots of different ways, my grandfathers indignation was not just that he had been denied a career that he aspired to, but that being a waiter was beneath him. And that was within a racial column of possibility. A lawyer being at the top and the waiter being not at the top. And so, the indignation its a very human kind of response. That we have codified in this country along thinking racial lines for reasons we all understand, we dont talk about class in a mature way. I wish we did. Robustd have a much more and complex story of our history. We as a nation dont love complexity, frankly. Indignation feels better, i think. I believe you understand where im coming from. In the last row . Then maybe one or two other questions. Thanks. Hi. Im a graduate of the Woodrow Wilson school at princeton and a former staff member at the Wilson Center. Ive done a lot of thinking about Woodrow Wilson over the years. And i really appreciate your talk today. What really resonated with me was that this question of who you surround yourself with . And also bringing it up to the present. And so, sort of by way of a comment, all of us, i think in my current nonprofit we think about this in hiring. And who are we bringing into the organization . How fluent are they in understanding Racial Equity and class analysis . One of the Interview Questions we ask people is why are people poor . We do not work on poverty. But its important to us that people have an understanding of history and of sociology at least at a basic level and then we do ongoing training and education as part of our work and we believe that makes us a better organization. We are surrounding ourselves with people who will be challenging our own thinking. I just wanted to offer that is a as a challenge to all of us as we are think about this and the present and how do we take these lessons away from your lecture and apply them in work we are doing daily. Dr. Holloway thank you. Any other questions . A gentleman in the middle. Then we will wrap up. My names solomon. I just want to share a quote and then i wanted to see your response to it in terms of how possibly we could somewhat suggest where wilsons legacy would be. Dr. King said, the measure of a man is not where stands in comforts and conveniences but where he stands in controversies and challenges. He said, that is the measure of a man. Based on that, how do we measure wilsons legacy . Dr. Holloway it is a great question but it invites a lot of glossing over in the answer. The answer needs to be deeply complex. If youre looking at wilson as an international statesman, you measure him in a certain kind of way. Saying a good or bad way. Some could say incredible success and some could say incredible failure depending on your philosophy of the league of nations or things like that. If you think about him from a domestic standpoint lets face it, he had a lot on his mind, safe to say, on an international standpoint, a Global Crisis that had never existed before, not on that scale certainly. Does that excuse him from the domestic front . For some, that is enough to say his legacy, we need to understand, standing in crisis on the international front. I mean, that is ok with me. Thats fine. But it also means if you accept that you are ignoring something else. That for a lot of people it was lifechanging it had great consequences. I am not prepared to give an answer that i think would be satisfactory about where does wilson stand, how do you measure wilson and the sense of crisis, because he was dealing with crises of all different types. One thing we didnt talk about is im sorry . He did all kinds of great things but he also did a lot of things that were not so great. But he was a president. That is the nature of the presidency for anybody. But the race riots that swept across the country in 1919. Did he cause them . No. Where there other mitigating factors that contributed . Absolutely. Was he involved in that in some ideological way . Sure, he was. Maybe in washington dc there is a causation there because of the hysteria that was a part of a worldview that blacks cannot restrain themselves. But i just think the question, wilson is so complex. That i would need the questions narrowed down in terms of a smaller, what context are we going to assess him in order to give a short i cannot give a short answer to it, im sorry. I dont really believe in president s especially as being heroes or villains. There are many people who are president if i were voting, i would never have voted, i thought their ideas were horrible. There were other president s i thought the opposite way. I dont want to simplify them to a vote, i think we need to bring a tremendous amount of sensitivity to their complexity. Just as i was talking about princeton, the good things they are talking about, these things that last. Thats what i want to see as a scholar. That we are talking about these things. Anyway. Final question. Hi. This is not really a question, just a comment. I appreciate your lecture. I learned a lot from it and i was fortunate enough last week to hear loni bunch being interviewed by rubenstein on slavery in the white house. Again, a fascinating, fascinating topic. Onust wanted people to be the lookout for, if you can get your hands on a copy of that because just like your comments tonight, there is just a lot to learn and a lot unfortunately we are finally talking about this these topics. Recommenday i would any time you get a chance to hear loni bunch talk about anything. I would listen to him read the phone book and be entertained. This is remarkable. Thanks for offering me the chance to opine. Lonnie and i was working in the smithsonian castle. I dont know if that is the official name. In fact, i know it is not the official name. I was working with figures who were working on what is called the africanamerican institutional museum project. This is 1991 and this was the first moment of the smithsonians very intense effort to create a nationally National Museum. In terms of within the smithsonian. And that is how i got to meet loni, the curate of the museum of American History. I was a little kid compared to them, sitting at their knee. What loni created in the National Museum of African American history and culture is an astonishment. Some people would say, people were opposed, well, it should have, that they had 80 years to do it and they didnt. So we are going to build this other institution. What is amazing for the narrative, it has become a site of pilgrimage for africanamericans and other. Mericans he tells Amazing Stories about how they are planning to he didnt want to have it ticketed. For safety. He said it would last for six months. That was the plan. Well do ticketing for six months. They are still ticketing three years later, because of demand. Theres something in that, in the telling of that story that speaks to a desire that i find deeply refreshing not because it is about the africanamerican experience, but because it is about people seeking complexity and honesty about our american story. This is an amazing country. It is amazing that it has held together, despite all of its complexities. We need to know about the complexities. Thank you. Thank you very much, jonathan. Im going to turn it over to jane for a final word. I want to observe that we ended up really in the sweet spot at the Wilson Center. With the focus on complexity and trying to work our way through an understanding of a complex world. Us in this room and other rooms in washington at this moment feel a thirst for the kinds of mature discussions. Jane let me add, i was speaking of the cosmos club six months ago and anne approached me and she said, whatever happened to the humphrey lecture at the Wilson Center . Whatever happened to the lecture at the Wilson Center just happened at the Wilson Center. And it is absolutely in our sweet spot, telling, like telling complex stories, understanding nuance, trying to whicht just nonpartisan, we try to be everyday, but free from spin. And this was the straight up story of Woodrow Wilson and race. And it was amplified a bit by an amazing scholar of Woodrow Wilson and an amazing audience. We always have the smartest audiences here. Dr. Holloway, good luck at rutgers. They are so lucky to have you. Dr. Holloway thank you. Jane you are enormously impressive. Thank you so much for coming. [applause] and thank you to blair for moderating. I should have said that. This is American History tv, where each weekend we feature programs exploring our nations past. Sunday on American History tv, nephew of british coal breaker code breaker alan turing talks about his book. The story of how enigma was broken. He was a preview. Is a preview. The french invite the british to a conference in it was going to take place in paris of january 19 39 to discuss code breaking problems and the problem of the enigma. Bertrand thinks it is a bit suspicious that he handed all of ins stuff over to langer poland in 1931 and he hasnt heard a whisper since then about have made anyles progress. So we invites the polls to this as well. The three countries turn up to the conference and they earnestly discuss the problem of the enigma machine. Everybody agrees the problem is a very difficult problem and it is very important they should solve it. Which is a little bit deceptive on the part of the poles. If you think about it, who you going to tell which allies do you think are real allies . Which ones do you think are fickle . To what extent are you willing to trust people with the secrets of your own intelligence gathering . This is a problem not specific to 1939. This is a problem specific to all eros. Eros. I dont think it is a problem s said nothing. You might think the product the conference was a failure. I dont think it was. Two things come out of it. When is this is the memorandum of agreement. It is in french. Is the intelligence cooperation agreement. It says for greater convenience we are going to call ourselves by the following abbreviations. Learn more about enigma code breaking here on American History tv. A comes out to be a campaign in which we have one candidate who is standing up for the working class and the middle class. We are going to win that election. For those who have been knocked down, counted out, left behind, this is your campaign. President ial primaries and caucuses continued tuesday for six states. Our campaign 2020 coverage of the candidate speeches and results tuesday evening, live on cspan. Cspan. Org or listen from whatever you are on the three cspan radio app. Author talks about how people remember world war ii, examining the accounts from survivors of hiroshima and the holocaust. This interview was recorded at the American Historical Association meeting. York isng us from new ran zwigenberg a professor of asian and jewish studies at penn state. The author of hiroshima and the origins of global memory culture. Thank you for joining us on cspans American History tv. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. You look at the two significant impactsf