Todays conversation and to have this chance to speak with dr. Rice. I have to start on a personal note though because we are living in such a stressful time. How are you doing . How are you holding up . Where are you right now . Well, i am in california, and i am doing just fine. Like most, quote, knowledge workers, i am able to work from home. I did hear a funny line the other day, im not sure whether im working at home or living at work. But im finding this a time when i am actually pretty productive. Im able to do almost everything remotely. Im trying to keep up my exercise routine. Im practicing the piano so i can wrestle choppin to the ground. Ive just become director of the hoover institution. But frankly the time off the road, not on airplanes, allowed me to make a smooth transition. All in all, that plus keeping in touch with friends and family by zoom or by text, its really quite okay. Its quite okay. Well, condy rice, 2020 has been and i have to say first of all, it sounds like youre working harder than ever even though youre being modest about it. I know everybody i know feels like they are. But this has been a year, literally, like no other. First and foremost, of course, the pandemic. 6. 6 million americans have been infected with covid. Almost 200,000 americans have died. Another 700,000 people have lost their lives around the world. Besides the United States, the blow to the u. S. Economy, tens of millions of americans out of work, many people going hungry. The protests for Racial Justice after the death of george floyd. Wild fires right now across the western United States, deadly reminder of climate change. And then, of course, as we are here to discuss, the interruption in education. And questions about this falls elections as if we didnt need Something Else to think about. Where do we go to get our arms around where do you go to get your arms around this to understand whats going on . The first thing that we have to do is to try to keep perspective. It is, indeed, an incredibly challenging time. Its been rare that weve had so many crises, one after another, just really challenging the system, challenging our institutions, challenging that Good American characteristic of optimism. I think people are not feeling so confident and so optimistic. But i would just remind us as we were just reminded about president reagan that this country was indeed founded in crisis. This country should never really have come into being. I remind my students all the time that we were fighting against the greatest military power of the time with a third of George Washingtons troops on the smallpox any given day and we were victorious. We fought a civil war and you talked about the civil rights movement. I think if we continue to pull together, if we remember the stories that are emerging all over the country of small kindnesses, one american to another. Thats really our strength. The communities that are mobilizing to make sure that nobody is on the streets, the communities that are mobilizing to make sure that, as well talk about, a kid who perhaps doesnt have access to broadband can find a place to study. Thats who we are. Our institutions will catch up. But for the time being, im really encouraged and im inspired by what i see in every american stepping up and trying to make responsibility not just for themselves but for each other. When it comes to covid, which of course is uppermost in our minds right now, where do americans turn for the right information . We are theres several different narratives out there about whats going on. Who do we trust . Well, i do trust what im hearing from the scientists in washington. I know dr. Tony fauci. I know dr. Deborah birx. Theyre good people and theyre doing their best. We have a myriad of voices that may have a differing views. And i dont have a problem with people questioning the tradeoffs that were making in society. Its one thing to say from an epidemiological point of view simply stopping the virus, we should do everything we have. I wear a mask even when i dont have to because i want to send a signal to people that i care about your health as much as i care about mine. But it is also the case that we are having to make tradeoffs in businesses, small businesses. And im hoping were giving them a chance to start to open because these are people whose entire livelihood and future is tied up in that business and the ability to reopen. So, we are having to make tradeoffs and just saying its just the science i think is not really fair to understanding all of the things that were looking at. Were going to talk here about the effects on education. There are clearly tradeoffs. There are clearly down sides to Virtual Learning for kids, particularly k12. I dont mind judith, trying to do my work as a citizen to understand all the variables were looking at and not just going to one source. I think those of us who really want to understand what were going through are going to have to try to look different in multiple voices. For sure. And we are going to talk about education. At the same time, we are in this era where it seems we are having less civil conversations and less civil exchanges. How important is it that we can have the different kinds of points of view out there but shared in a civil way n a way where people are not raising their voices or shaking their fists at each other. I would ask everybody to remember that when were going through Something Like this, something thats fundamentally new in many ways we have some echos of it back in the past with the spanish flu. I was National Security adviser during sars. Weve seen something before. Weve seen nothing of this consequence at least in my lifetime in terms of the virus. So, lets all approach it with a sense of humility. Lets all approach it with the sense that nobody really owns the, quote, truth here. Were all trying to work our way through understanding. And i think that makes you more civil because youre willing to listen to somebody whos different, who thinks differently. I think one of our problems, judy, is im going to date myself. But i know you would be in the same category, with all due respect. My family used to watch the huntleybrinkley report every night. And some people watched walter c cronkite. There was of course the news hour that everybody watched. But now i can go to aggregator, i can go to my websites, i can go to my cable news channel. I never have to encounter anybody that thinks differently. Do you know what happens when you dont encounter people who think differently, when you do, you think theyre venal or theyre stupid. So, we really have to make a pledge as americans that were going to get out of our own little echo chambers. Were going to stop going to places where people say amen to everything we say, where we are reinforced in the rightness and certainty of our opinions and where were willing to listen. And if we can begin to get our information that way and share information that way, were going to be better off and we will ultimately be more civil too. No question. Many, Many Americans agree with what you just said. How do they get motivated to do that right now . Were not hearing that at the highest level right now. Were not hearing it in washington and were not hearing it across pennsylvania avenue. Its not just at 1600. Its not just in the congress. I think our leaders in a sense are reflecting us. You have to have strong opinions. You have to hold them strongly. The word compromise is a bad word. But our institutions, our founders, built our system on the expectation of what madison called constant consternation. That is were going to constantly be trying to solve our problems. Were going to have to sometimes win or lose this battle but not consider that person my enemy, move on to the next one knowing that we all have the Public Interest at heart. Ronald reagan held strong views. I remember how much he changed our thinking of whether we could confront the soviet union and we did win that confrontation. But Ronald Reagan could go to the other side of the aisle. Its always been talked about. Sit down with tip oneill and talk about what was good for america. He could unite us across partisan lines to do great legislation and to help us set up to win the cold war. So, we need to ask our leaders to follow that example more, that we are not enemies in politics. We have differences, but we are all trying to make america better. And we can all certainly hope and work toward that goal. Doctor rice, covid has exposed the divides in our country. The economic divide, the racial divide, certainly the educational divide. Talk for a minute about how thats happening. Its not as if we didnt know there was inequality of opportunity in this country, that we didnt know there was racism in this country. But talk about how you see whats happened this year with covid and what it has exposed. Covid has exposed the deep inequalities in our system. And you really put your finger on the two inequalities that are most obvious. If you are a knowledge worker, if you are like us, you were telling me you could produce the news hour from your homes, you havent lost the beat, your continuing to be productive. Yes, maybe its a problem of putting your wanders into the room or how do you have your kids at home at the same time, but we can keep doing our work. And some would say weve even been better at doing our work. If you have to go to the restaurant or the shop floor, youre unemployed. So, the kind of work that you have, the kind of education that you have has really helped determine how well you are getting through this covid crisis on the work side. On the education side, its even more dramatic. There are so many kids that school is a refuge, a refuge from a bad home, a refuge where a kid has inspiring determination to get better and really has to overcome home in order to do it. Well, now that kid is at home. When we think about the potential learning loss when i was about to be in first grade, the state of alabama in its wisdom said if you didnt turn 6 before october 31st, you had to go to school. My mother was a schoolteacher. Took a year off and she taught me at home. Now, by the time she finished with me, i think i was probably third or fourth grade in most things. But now think about the kid whose parents dont speak english, who cant help them with that homework, who cant hire the tutor to put together the kids in pods as some people are doing in parts of our country. So, the inequality is growing. And i am concerned that i dont think we have enough conversation about this cost of shutting down the schools. To be sure, i understand the safety concerns. I understand the safety concerns of the teachers. I also understand that this is a very difficult tradeoff that were making, that these kids have lost a year and may lose even more. What do you think the school should be doing, the school systems, the School Leaders should be doing that theyre not doing . Clearly theyve given this a lot of thought. There have been analysts, meetings, conversations, research thats been done in the short period of time we have. Look at Virtual Learning. Seems to me many of them, most of them, are trying to do the right thing. What else do they need to be doing . Well, perhaps trying to be more creative. I do think youre right. I think people are trying to do the right things. But if we could find a way to think not just about what we would have done in the classroom in terms of teaching math or science, but also how were supporting the kids in other aspects, particularly poor kids. So, for instance, one thing that widens the gap is after the time that youve spent virtually on todays lessons, contrast what happens in the home of a poor kid and the home of a kid who comes from parents with means. I know after School Activities for kids that are healthy and extended learning and continuing to push the kid to keep learning. Is that happening for poor kids . The boys and girls clubs are trying to help fill the gap with the essay contests and maybe some kind of after School Debate club or something. I think we cant just think that the learning loss comes during the four, five hours a day that youre trying to engage in Virtual Learning. But its also everything that happens outside of the classroom but that is tied to the school that is important. One thing ive been impressed with is i know that theres been a lot of attention given to the children for whom school is the place to get healthy meals. And i know that people are paying a lot of attention to that. I also think you have to Pay Attention to the activity side of it. Thats a part of the extended learning day. And i know teachers are tired and i know theyve got their own issues at home and that its hard. But somebodys got to take up that slack so that the after School Environment is equal, in a sense, for kids across the spectrum. I want to keep, of course, coming back to the particular education aspects of all this. But in the meantime, as weve mentioned, this has been a year for racial reckoning, if you will, a hard look at social justice with protests across the country initially after the death of george floyd. The vast majority of them peaceful. But some leading to violence. My question to you is, you know, as we know, theres been Racial Injustice in this country. Whats different about this moment . You wrote an oped in early june, very prescient. You said you hope his death was not in vein, that the u. S. Can move on to positive action. How do you see what happened to him fitting into our reckoning on race in america . Interestingly, when it happened, of course we were all disgusted, appalled, made angry by what we saw. It was the dehumanization of a human being. The response though, for me, was encouraging because in my hometown of birmingham, alabama, if a black man died at the hands of the police, it wouldnt have been a footnote in the newspaper, let alone people going out to protest. And so i was initially very encouraged by that. But i am worried that its somehow been hijacked by people who just want to tear the system down. While yes, there are peaceful protesters, theres far too much of portland and seattle. And theres far too much of really whats happening with the painting all Law Enforcement with a broad brush, that theyre all racist. We just cant go there. So, i think the response that im most appreciative for in a sense is that people of all colors, people of all ages wanted to go and say this isnt okay. But if i look at what happened in the 60s, there were the protests. We remember selma and montgomery, and weve just remembered the great john lewis and the marches. And i was a kid in birmingham. I remember the protests in kelly ingram park right there next to 16th Street Baptist Church where those little girls were bombed. Weve just come through the 57th anniversary of that on september 15th. I remember the protests and the violence and bull connors police dogs and all of that. But i also know that it wasnt just protests that got us to 64 and 65 in legislation. It was a legislative agenda. It was also the use of the courts. Thurgood marshall and the naacp had been taking cases to courts since the 30s to find places they could break down segregation. So, you have to use the institutions in addition to just protesting. I would also say to every american as i try to say in that Washington Post piece, each of us has to decide what our role is going to be in bringing Racial Justice. Its really a hard issue. Judy, my dna is 40 european. Thats because my great grandmother was the daughter of a slave owner. And i have ancestors who were slave owners and slaves. This is a deep wound in america. It is, in fact, a birth defect at our founding. So, each of us has to say what can i do, what conversation can i have . What am i most concerned about in terms of the impact of race . If it is the impact of race on educational differences, what can you do about that . Its maybe as small or what you would consider insignificant, but it isnt. Go work at a boys and girls club. Do something personally in your community because thats how americans have always responded. If 300 million of us have that attitude, were going to be a better place. No question. There is individual responsibility. And what about responsibility from our political people. What role do you think they play in wrestling with this . Well, certainly our political leaders have to set tone. And we need a tone that brings us together, not that divides us. They also have an obligation to think about what we need to do in terms of systems and infrastructure. So, for instance, police reform. We all know that we need to have police reform. Just before this, of course, weve gotten landmark criminal justice reform. So, we can get it done. And we did that across partisan lines. So, trying to take that, again, is important. I also think we need to look at infrastructure. If you dont have access to broadband now, its like not having access to electricity or running water. How about a National Project on broadband. We need some National Projects. How about National Service . Ive been a big advocate, along with general stan chrrystal and some others of getting to do voluntary National Service. A lot of kids are taking a gap year in college. What are they doing with the gap year . Maybe you could study. But maybe you could also find a way to go into a neighborhood that you would otherwise not know those people and help in that neighborhood and get to know them. Because when we get to know each other as human beings and we recognize whatever difficulties were going through, there are people who are going through much more difficult circumstances. Were made better for it. So, along the entire spectrum, from what leaders can do in terms of legislation and infrastructure to what we individually can do, we have a real opportunity to address Racial Disparities and the witchs brew that is when Racial Disparities meet poverty. That is when our country is most challenged. And how do you get that attitude across to americans who dont recognize that there is this, for whatever reason, either because they havent been exposed to the information, because they havent been educated about it or for whatever reason they dont recognize the Racial Disparity and dont recognize the educational disparity. How do you how should we be getting the word out . And frankly changing peoples minds and hearts . You have to change peoples minds and hearts by meeting them where they are. And you have to change their minds and hearts by not yelling at them. I actually think americans know that there are Racial Disparities. But it isnt helpful if the discussion of those Racial Disparities comes with a heavy dose of recrimination and guilt. Ive been telling my white friends, i really dont want your guilt. I dont want to hear it. I dont need it. I want to hear what you can do about the fact we are not color blind, probably never will be, but we need to act as if were color blind. So, what can you do about that . But if we do this in a way that im weaponizing my identity against you, i am its all about recrimination, its all about guilt, people are simply going to tune out. And i think thats partly what youre seeing. So, theres also a heavy responsibility of those of us on the other side of the color line to make this conversation one that people are willing to engage in. I tell my students all the time you actually dont have a constitutional right not to be offended. And so if somebody offends you, suppose you just tell them, thats offensive and heres why. And maybe you could have a conversation about it. So, theres responsibility on both sides of the color line here to make this a time when we can come to terms with, come to reckoning with, what weve been through as a country and what were going through now. Do you think weve made progress this year or do you think its yet to come . I think its yet to come. Weve made some progress. People are more aware. People, i think, want to have these conversations. Everywhere i go, people want to know and they want to do the right thing. Most people really do want to do the right thing. I tell you, when you say no matter where you are in the success ladder, you will still sometimes feel the effects of race. People are surprised at that. So, we need to talk about it with each other. We need to talk to our kids about it. But we also need to continue to talk about the progress weve made. Nothing really kind of gets the hair off the back of my neck than oh, well, nothings changed. Really . Nothings changed. I grew up in segregated alabama. Nothings changed . Weve had a black president , black secretaries general, nothings changed . I just if we take that attitude, not only do we to my mind do we dishonor those who made those changes over a long period of time. But why bother . If nothings changed in 200 years, why bother . That, i think, is a very its a really debilitating way to think about what were going through. Do you see in this next generation, when youve been in the classrooms, students youve interacted with. Do you see a change in this Younger Generation as theyre coming along in all of this . All these kids are different. First of all, its the most publicminded generation ive ever taught. They want to do something bigger than themselves. I think they both on a daily basis, they can kind of overcome race. They still see it. But, you know, theyre in a bit of a hurry. I tell them all the time, you know, just kind of slow down. I have kids who come to me and say i want to be a leader. I say its not a Job Description and its not a destination. Lets start with what are you going to know. They dont actually know the history very well. And that is a problem. And by the way, we need to teach them the history in a way that is very clear about the original scent of america and the birth defect of america but also about the institutions that allowed me one day to stand in the ben franklin room in the state department under a portrait of Benjamin Franklin and take the oath of office to a constitution that once counted my ancestors at 3 5 of a man sworn in by a Jewish Supreme Court justice named ruth bader ginsburg. So, they need to know that too. And they also need to understand that governing over difference is hard. Authoritarians dont have a problem with this. They just kill people who are different. Look at what the chinese are doing to the uighurs. But in a democracy, its hard to govern over difference. And we arent the only ones that have this problem. And so i would like our students to have a fuller picture of what the race issue looks like in america. Lets segue back to education, although its always a part of what were talking about here. How wide is the learning gap, the education gap, in this country right now . When youve been exposed by covid, you referred to it a few minutes ago. But how wide is it . I think the education gap is wide and its going to widen after this experience. And we continue to have third graders who cant read. And if you cant read by the time youre third grade, youre probably not going to read. We have to have ourselves what are you going to do about that . Im a great believer in Public Schools. My mother was a Public Schoolteacher. I have cousins who are Public Schoolteachers today. I am a great believer in the Public School system. But right now it is an opt out school system. If you are of means, you move to where schools are good and houses are wealthy. If youre really wealthy, you send your kids to Public Schools. Whos stuck in these schools, poor kids. And a lot are minority kids. I dont understand the argument that you shouldnt give to poor parents, not all of whom are dysfunctional, by the way. Just some of them many of them are just poor. So, why shouldnt you give them the same choices that you have to put your kid in a good school . So, i believe in vouchers. I believe in school choice. I believe in Charter Schools. Not all Charter Schools are good, but a lot of them are very good. And when someone wants to see, well, if you support Charter Schools or school choice, look at what youre doing to the Public School system. Then i would say, all right, if youre going to write that editorial, send your kid to school in an costia outside of washington, d. C. So, we need to call out the inequality and the hypocrisy of those who cloak themselves in the Public Schools and then escape the aspects because they can afford to live in a good neighborhood or send their kids to private gajt schools. I think you can see it. Judy, whenever there is a lottery for a place at a Charter School or a scholarship, poor parents are lined up around the block. They know. They know what their kids need. And, yes, im all for Higher Expectations for the kids. Im a teacher. If you give kids low expectations, theyll live down to them. Im all for merit pay for teachers. I know that the studies show that if you can get a good principal into a school, that will make a difference. So, better training and positioning of principals. But while were doing all that structural reform, lets give poor parents some choices. One of the main arguments about all this has to do with the more resources that go into charter, private, Public Schools, the less resources there are for everybody else. I just dont buy the argument. I just dont buy the argument because in palo alto, in fairfax county, and hoover, alabama, outside birmingham, those schools are perfectly resourced. Theyre public. And you live in an expensive house and send your kids there. Then you want to argue if i have a charter where a poor parent can get the same good education that youre getting in hoover or fairfax county, thats bad for the Public Schools. If you really believe that, then take those resources out of palo alto and put them in poor schools. So, i dont buy the argument. I would be perfectly happy to put more resources into good Public Schools. I would be happy to put more resources into good teachers, good principals. I do think that the extended learning day is really important. You know, we are the for developing countries, we have the shortest learning day and the shortest learning year of anybody in the world. Theres no wonder that our kids arent measuring up on all these intergnash Nation International tests. So, im also a believer in publicprivate partnerships between boys and girls clubs and youth programs. I started something in palo alto called centers for new generation that were for underserved kids to have high quality experiences. Everything from handson math science and everything including instrumental band and that sort of thing because i believe musics important to kids as a musician. And we now have them in dallas and in birmingham, atlanta, and several in california. Those kinds of partnerships are also really important because we really and by the way, the programs take place in the School Building when we are not in covid, in the School Building after school. So, were also using the infrastructure well. So, there are all kind of ways that we can help to close this gap. But we cant just keep talking about the gap as if it were just a matter of the amount of money that we spend. In our few remaining minutes, the theme of todays program is leadership. Leadership broadly. Theres been a lot of con if fie lost in the american leadership. As you described it in recent years. How do we go about giving the American People confidence in their leaders, making the right decisions, taking the country in the right direction . You have to own your democracy. Its not just up to the leaders. If you dont like what you see, whats going on, then youve got to find a way to actually be involved in the political process. I hear people say, well, i dont want to be involved in politics. Its so dirty. All right. Fine. Then youll get what you get. By the way, it doesnt have to just be the federal level. I tell my students go work on a campaign. It will really help you to understand what democracy is about. Do public service, whether its in the government or not. But when it comes to holding leaders accountable, if you think about the way the political proes is working now, the most extremes are the ones that are controlling the political space. And yet people, quote, in the middle or people who have a more nuanced view of politics, are we spending our saturdays at the state convention . No. Andare we spending our saturdays at the state convention. No, we complain because people who are there are extreme. It can mean serving on the Planning Commission in your own community. It can mean serving on the school board in your own community. When i talk about leadership, yes, we want to elect people and were fortunate that we have a system that allows us to change power peacefully. Whoever we elect as governor, president , or whomever. There are whole other levels of government that are extremely important to where this country goes. A lot of leadership is finding leadership characteristics and other people. I hope that all of us find a way to really engage in the process. Because as a good friend of mine, almost 100 years old, one of the great Public Servants of our time, Ronald Reagan secretary of state. He says democracy is not a spectator sport. I would say, that is a message worth taking to heart. In that spirit, lastminute of so, what was your advice be to people right now. inaudible my advice would be tried to unite us. During political campaigns rhetoric gets exaggerated, not just in this im pain, you go back Thomas Jefferson sent around a circular that George Washington was seen ill. Because he didnt like his relationship with alexander hamilton. Our politics have always been a bit rough. I would say to President Trump and former Vice President biden, speak to us with us, not at us. People want to have a sense that this country can come together. They want to have a sense that whatever happens on november 3rd, we are going to be reuniting around some big National Things. I would hope we Start Talking about what those National Things are. One of those themes has to be america has to stay engaged in the world. Because when america is not engaged in the world, this is something Ronald Reagan understood. When america is not engaged in the world, our values and our interest are compromised. We want a world thats more freer, the United States has always been, or at least since the end of world war ii, the reason that others look to us. Because they know that we cared, that we saw our own interest as inextricably linked to others. Taking note of that at a time. inaudible on that note i want to thank doctor connolly rice, such an honor to speak with you. Im julie, its been a complete honor to be part of this program today. With the reagan institute, for both of us thank you. Were featuring American History tv programs as a preview of whats available every weekend on cspan 3. Tonight, a look back at the 1969 Supreme Court case, tinker versus des moines. Which decided that students do not lose their First Amendment rights on schooled grounds. The court ruled in favor of three des moines iowa students, who are suspended for wearing black arm bands to school to protest the vietnam war. Violating local school policies. Watch tonight, beginning at eight eastern. Enjoy American History tv this week and every weekend on cspan 3. Now a hearing with Law Enforcement officers, legal experts, and the former neonazi. Discussing their experiences with racist police officers. And the danger of White Supremacy in Law Enforcement. From the House Oversight committee this is about two hours. Good morning this subcommittee will come to work and without objection the chairau