Transcripts For CSPAN3 African 20240703

Okay, everyone. So good evening, everyone. Good evening. Welcome to health center. I only hospital and the annual benjamin drive emancipation day celebration. My name is Sharita Thompson and i work with marion brown. For the last eight. Heres hoping to organize an annual to celebrate and recognize d. C. Emancipation act becoming law on april 16th of 1862 and a free of a little over 3000 slave persons held in the district along in the series was named in honor of Benjamin Drummond, who was born around 1843 in nassau, new york. Drummond, a 24 year old black slave owner, was the first patient admitted to naval hospital, now known as the old vic. The hospital, when it opened on october 1st in 1866. Drummond was initially in assassins while serving on the u. S. Morning light. He was actually shot in the leg. He would receive care for that injury. A naval hospital, orleans, on december six, 1864, joining in the navy and came to be a patient in this building on october first of 1866, when he when his boat, he opened so we all dedicate celebration to benjamin charlton. We dedicate this Panel Discussion in which the lives and experience of africanamericans who served in the u. S. To Benjamin Franklin as well as the sit in Benjamin Drummond hall. So thank to our sponsor national capital. So without further delay let introduce our Dynamic Panel today. First, we have dr. Regina akers. She is native of washington, d. C. She received her bachelors of u. S. History from the Catholic University of america, receiving both her masters and doctorate in u. S. Public history, some howard university. Shes a member of the public History Education section in history class and the history and heritage names where she has served as an archivist historian since 1987. She enjoys the National Reputation as a subject expert and expert controversy, personnel issues in the United States military with the emphasis on women and africanamericans in the navy. She has served as first chair of the committee and senior historians advisory committee, and the commands oral history team. Her publications include the navys first enlisted women patriotic. That was naval history at heritage may 2013. She is the coauthor of the United States navy oral history guide. She is present at a myriad symposia ranging from the Wilson Center to the National Archives, and she has given numerous media interviews for hostages and assignments, including captain America Civil War sails project, the dont ask, dont tell task force and the advisory committee. The congressional effort to establish the womans History Museum on the national mall. Shes also a key contributor to the patriot act and corridor renovation project. She is the 2020 force tug of war, a cohesive unit for outstanding career achievements in oral history. Please help me welcome dr. Gina. Ness. Please welcome. That was dr. Edward valentino jr. Ross. He received his bachelors in history from the United States military in 2010 and his doctorate in history from Rice University in may 20. In 2016, everett began working the Buffalo Soldiers National Museum, houston, texas as an assistant curator. Since july 2020 and has worked as curator at the National Museum of the United States. His research focuses on race in identity and the u. S. Military, and his work appears in war history. He is currently on his book manuscript black on blue racism shift in military. Occupation 1866 to 1900, which is under control at the university of virginia press. Please help me welcome you. And they will pay top of station with dr. Joseph, who is emeritus professor history at howard university. He taught history and served in various ministry positions from 1984 until his retirement in 2017. He received a bachelors degree in sociology from, Delaware University and both masters and doctoral degrees from Northern Illinois university, specializing 19th century states history. From 1977 to 1984, he was editor of the Freedom Society Society Prize and the university of Maryland College park working. On the first four volumes of the policy Award Winning series titled freedom by documentary history participation,. 1861 to 1867. He collaborated with other actors in the project to produce three other studies of civil war games, the patient, one of which realized the documentary history of slavery, freedom and civil war, was awarded the lincoln prize in 1984. He is the author of sleep is from slavery to burning capitalism and the conflict to nations such as georgia, 1832 1880. That is when the university of North Carolina press 1992 his faith articles and chapters in the civil war era include information, overviews on the experiences of black slaves in the u. S. Navy, including black in blue during the civil war, which appears in the pro bowl quarterly of the National Archives and Records Administration fall 2001. His most recent book, illusions of emancipation, pursuit of freedom, equality, the twilight slavery, published by the University Press in 2019, was awarded the prestigious bancroft prize by Columbia University and the john book prize in American Civil War history by the university of virginia. The book was also a finalist for the lincoln. Dr. Niekerk serves as president of Southern Historical association. So please, i can. Make everyone in the room and virtually rejoining us today and certainly hope that you enjoy the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Jacobs. Good evening, everybody. Its a pleasure to have you here this evening. And i hope we wont disappoint you. I have a feeling we wont. But let me just give you a little brief outline about we want to approach the topic tonight. As you know, its a very broad one, even though its focused specifically on the matters of race and racism within navy over literally the course of its history. We do want to break up the presentation in line with our own areas of interest and specializations and research. So with that in mind, ill be the first one to speak because my interest in the civil war ill talk a little bit about the previous Civil War Navy, a bit about the Civil War Navy. And then ill hand matters over to eddie, who will then cover later 19th century down into the 20th century. And last but not least, regina will cover the World War Two period. And after. Now, what we thought would do would be to say a little bit about how we got interested in the topic in the first place, and then sort dive into it for a few minutes. So in my case, as dr. Jacobs introduction made clear in the 1970s and 1980s, i work with the freedmen and Southern Society project at university of maryland. And what that project was about was records at the National Archives to tell the history of emancipation during the civil war. So thats really what my interest has been literally since ive been in graduate school. Understood. And that that the dynamic whereby slavery broke down and then a whole new world in a sense had to be created and the ashes of slavery. So military service clearly was an important part of that. Whats more, given the fact that the United States army was. And youll recall that africanamericans were not permitted to serve in the United States army until 1863, after Congress Passed certain legislation, president lincoln promulgated his emancipation proclamation. Its only after that that black men were admitted into the army. So to point out, which i and my colleagues would on the work on how military service helped to end slavery, it was quite natural for to turn to the military records. After all, there was a bureau of colored troops that a nice starting point into the history of black soldiers during the civil war. Then by of understanding their experience we could hope to understand emancipation on the navy side of military service. However, it was a completely different story because the navy was never segregated from its origins in the colonial period. Naval vessels. First of the colonies. Then of the United States navy were always integrated. In fact, down through the antebellum period. If anything, the us officials who presided over navy enlistments put a cap on how many African American men could serve. It was 5 of the crew, any given vessel that was about to undertake a cruise. But frequently that number was exceeded. So there was a Significant Group of africanamericans who had served in the United States navy from before it was dry states navy, and that remained true right down to the start of the civil war. And at point, as you may or may not know, the u. S. Naval fleet was very small, probably 40. Some functioning vessels. And over the course of the war, that number increased to more than 600. So navy as a service had as much of a challenge in terms of enlisting men to these vessels as the army did, the point at which the conflict began. So the navy, to some extent, could rely on the presence of African Americans. But most of the men who served in the us navy africanamerican men had us who served in the navy before the civil war were free in the north. Many of them had had some kind of seafaring experience as merchant seamen, as men who served on whaling ships, coastal ferries, things of that nature. So they had some knowledge of the sea and they had some awareness of how vessels operated. So those men came into the u. S. Navy relatively quickly after start of hostilities. But i should point out that there were africanamerican southerners who also served. So norfolk was a major naval base. And norfolk, of course, is in virginia, was a slave state. So numbers of men who some of whom were enslaved had, in effect, been hired to the United States navy, other free men, and around norfolk also. So my point here simply with regard to the start of the civil war is that the number of africanamericans was small, but it was not zero. And that men often had some pre war service, but as the navy expanded, then the need for more sailors obviously increased exponentially. And that first, as u. S. Naval vessels to operate in waters to the confederacy or in the confederacy for example, along the Chesapeake Bay coast of virginia, africanamericans who had been enslaved and who were seeking freedom, frequently sought cover and sought protect with u. S. Naval vessels. And so from the very beginning of the conflict, commanders of u. S. Naval vessels had to contend with who were presenting themselves as volunteers for service, the United States navy. So within a matter of months, the Service Began accepting these men into the service. Now, you may be familiar with the term contraband in reference to africanamericans who had been enslaved and who were becoming freed during the course, the civil war. Now this term originated at hampton, virginia, when general butler, you may remember, referred to three men who had run away from as contraband of war and use that as an excuse to give them federal protection. So the secretary of the navy advised commanders that they could use similar logic to take the men who were fleeing from slavery on board vessels and put them to work. And wouldnt you know, it . But they raided the men under the term contraband, which had existed before the start of the civil war. Obviously in the us navy. But what that meant was that these men who were coming out of slavery were being looked down upon essentially as formerly enslaved people who have little by way of seafaring skills, and perhaps therefore contribute to the proper functioning of a naval vessel. But for the men who were from the north and who had experience, they were not treated the same way. So there were real distinctions that that sometimes carried into the postcivil war period, but probably not much as we might have hoped. But my point here again, with regard to the distinction, the contraband and, the men who were free born, is that the freeborn men who had the prior seafarer experience could have been rated as seamen. That could have been rated as ordinary seamen. So the Rating System was not segregated in the sense that men with dark complexion would be rated as contrabands, which of course was at the lowest end of the pay scale as well. So men with experience who knew the ropes, as it were, could be treated as able seamen and paid accordingly. So theres variation between the northern men and the southern men between men with prior seafaring experience and men without it. Now, where the matter really becomes interesting is in that rating scale from contraband, which was the equivalent of the prewar rating of boy, which typically was reserved for young men who were 18 years of age or lower, lower aged, whose had to give them permission to come into the naval service. So here are the contrabands then being a with enslavement also being associated the rating of boy, which again implies novice inexperience, perhaps under aged. So the contrabands that burden with them throughout their terms of service but the men who were freeborn did not necessarily have that same kind of burden. Now, another point id like to make with regard to the ratings structure is that once men were assigned to a vessel, then essentially the captain, the vessel or his lieutenant would assign the ratings on board the ship. So men with experience in could in fact have been rated as petty officers on board a particular vessels and some them in fact would have been enviable petty officer ratings in fact gave them Real Authority over their fellow shipmates. And there was probably nothing like that in the United States, even though you could make the case that a Sergeant Major in an africanamerican regiment would have had similar kinds of authority. So the rating structure within the navy was a little bit more flexible, perhaps, than that. In the army. But again, it would have been men who had Prior Experience or real strength of character that. The vessel commanders would have recognized and wanted to reward. Now, there were no commissioned officers in United States navy. In fact, as regina will point out, its not until World War Two, as many of you know, that africanamerican men were commissioned as officers. As far as can tell, there were no warrant officers in the United States navy, the civil war. So the structure was to some extent flexible. Again, to some extent, i dont want to overdo or overexaggerate the ability of africanamerican men move up the ladder, if you will, of naval ratings. But nonetheless, there were real limits to and none could even think about naval officers. So on the one hand, the ships are integrated, but they werent equal, integral and without equality as a way to conceive of this, in many cases they were discriminated against, especially the contrabands. So in a pacific squadron there was a ship called the st marys that took in perhaps as many as 70 or 80 men who have been enlisted from maryland and then sent to the Pacific Ocean on st marys to chase down confederate predatory vessels in the Pacific Ocean. They were not only labeled as contrabands, but they were as inferior by their fellowship mates and a group of what they described as new york ruffians europeanamerican men who came into the service were also assigned the same ship and they also they almost came to blows so routinely in the evening during the dog watches as the men were relaxing deck. The africanamericans sailors the contrabands on st marys subjected to having all kinds of things thrown at them. Sharp objects for guns and all kinds of things of that nature. And got to the point where they just said, no, were not doing this anymore. And they threatened mutiny. And then the officers of the ship had to step in. So theres a case where the contrabands were treated very much differently, discriminated in all kinds of ways. And abused by their fellow white sailors. But in other cases, the navy justice system, for example war and Court Martial cases that we were talking about did not discriminate against black sailors. There was a case of two sailors, an irishman and an africanamerican. Well, i think were in the gulf squadron. They got into an argument. They started badmouthing each other and no doubt disrespecting each others mothers and what have you. And got into a fistfight. And before too long, both of them fell to the deck. And the irish head crashed into the hard deck and his skull fractured and he died within hours. If not days of that accident. So the africanamerican sailor was grabbed and charged with murder. He went through the Court Martial proceedings and the court found him not guilty. So as we think about cases like that, you wonder how this man would have fared in the civilian justice system, for example, if this had happened in new york city, for example, or for that matter, or washington or anywhere. So there way were ways in which africanamericans, sailors and the Civil War Navy could achieved a level of justice that they might not have been able to have equal civilian life. But and large, it was a case of being integrated into a service, but at the same time being the aided against in all kinds of ways. So let me stop there for now. And ill let any take over and cover the postwar period. And then wed like to get at some conversation among us and of time permits to have you make some comments and perhaps ask some questions that well as well, adding. Sure. Thank you all again for being here. Ive always been interested in the black military experience. Most of my research has really focused on the army. Both my parents were in the army. I was in the army. The navy just happens to pay me now. But in all seriousness, ive always been kind of the question, what does it mean to be a black in the military . They people in the military have always been at the the vanguard of the fight for civil rights. And so those questions kind of still captivate me. And, you know, i found that i can still ask those questions in my current job for those who dont know the navy to build a new National Museum here in, d. C. , one of the main things i want to do in that museum is really emphasize stories about individuals, talk about the human dimensions, and they will service and really answer the question of whos in the navy, whats life like . What do people actually do at sea . And we really want to Foster Museum environment, where our audience, especially younger visitors, will encounter stories about people who like them. Thats important. Representation is extremely important, but engage with those questions in a responsible manner requires us to think about Power Dynamics and how that affects peoples lives. So in short, we really need to think about whos allowed to be in the navy, what are they allowed to do or become in the navy . And, you know, we really want to people to think of naval history as a bridge for understanding broader u. S. And thinking about how the navy influenced political, social cultural and economic developments. And vice versa. With that, ill jump into my part of this discussion. As dr. Readdy noted. Most of my remarks are going to focus on the events that occurred between 1870s and roughly in 1920. A clear story arc here about the experiences of black sailors. And its largely a story of opportunities in the navy, steadily declining for black sailors from about 1870 to the early 1900s. You can find black sailors. Most of them are serving as stewards, cooks and landsman but some of them have more specialized jobs as firemen, carpenters, storekeepers and water tenders. At this point, we have more steam ships. So are more kind of specialized jobs. And while we know of no black sailors who were promoted to petty officer first class, you can find a handful that were promoted to petty officer second class and third class and between 1872 and 1901, there, nine black sailors that were awarded the medal of honor for various acts of bravery and heroism. And then also throughout this period, going into the 1880s and early 1900s, black sailors are continuing to serve in integrated crews. They ate, slept, worked, fought alongside white, white sailors. And while most of our discussion is really kind of focused on a black white binary, its important to note that were filipino sailors, chinese sailors, japanese sailors, sailors from south america all over the world. So its really a really integrated fleet. And while black sailors, as dr. Readdy pointed out, were no certainly no stranger to racism, there are still some small pockets of mobility, autonomy that permeate the role of white supremacy. But by the early hundreds and continuing about 1920, jim crow policies increasingly restrict the opportunities that sailors. And so i kind of want to talk a little bit about a story that i was kind of looking into when i was perfect for this. And it comes from a newspaper called the new york age, which was a very prominent black newspaper, black sail of the black press kind of matures as an institution at this point. Black sailors are reading black newspapers and writing back to them. And theres an incident in 1909 when a fleet of warships docks in new york. They a parade and while the black president s note that theres no white people in the parade and they know theres black sailors on the ships, so they ask kind of whats going on . They write a letter, actually, to the Navy Department. The Navy Department sends a letter back saying. Of course, theres like sailors in the navy. You know theyre talking about all the things theyre allowed to do. But it wasnt rooted in any kind of reality. And so on that, the paper received a couple of different letters from. Blacks, those who were serving in the fleet in 1910, kind of explaining what their life was like. One guy im going to paraphrase here talks about how, you know, theres more discrimination navy than the rest of the u. S. , which is pretty striking to say. He talks about how only black sailors or blacks is only allowed to as stewards and really terrible of heaving coal. And it steamships talks about how they dont wear the same uniforms as other sailors. Theres uniforms. They look more like servants and sailors. They have to go get their haircut, kind of in a secret kind of passageway way. They never fall in formation with the rest of the rest of the crew. And hes talked about how theres just no incentive for black people to really join the navy, expect great things out of it. And ive only ive only mentioned a few things here, but its a really long letter. Its really interesting, assuming that hes anywhere 20 and 30 years of age, average age of a recruit at the time hed probably been born free and never known slavery directly. By 1910, many of the 18,000 black sailors at its service of war and i contributed directly the destruction of slavery had either perished or they were at least 70 years of age. Some of them were probably fighting for their civil pensions. This man was also probably too young to have experienced the promises. Limited gains and the ultimate disappointment and losses. The reconstruction era in 1865, 1877, and perhaps he was conscious of old enough to realize the devastating that the 1886 Supreme Court decision and plessy versus ferguson had on black americans. He probably knew about the widespread lynchings happening all over the south at this point. And perhaps he viewed enlisting the navy as a way to from the world of jim crow that it taking over. And as dr. Healy described being a sailor had long been a way to secure a degree of mobility and autonomy that didnt exist in other parts of american society. But you kind of see that window really closing for black sailors at this point. Just kind of zooming back out to talk a little bit more about broader navy stuff, 1880s, the navy is really expanding, becoming, getting more into the public. But as you see them getting more into public view, as the navy becomes more visible, theres a increasing effort to make black sailors invisible and outright embrace them altogether. Theres more emphasis on steam engines and High Technology on ships. The seafaring communities that dr. Readdy was talking about that they recruited from originally, the navy, theyre really starting to shift towards recruiting from the interior of the country. More white sailors, they want to build an enlisted force thats really mostly of native born white americans. Thats rooted in a lot of antiimmigration sentiment. And, of course, antiblack. And then by 19, 19, its kind of like the culminating point i like to think of, kind of integration or segregation is kind of a process rather than a moment. By 1919, the art in segregationist sectors, the navy. This point, Joseph Daniels imposes a ban on black sailors enlisting at all. And that ban remains in place. Until 1932. And while he rightfully gets blamed for implementing this policy, its important to note that this is happening from bottom up as well as the top down. Theres a lot of anti white violence on ships, you know, almost that came close to lynchings a few times in port cities. Thats just really a really stringent antiblack racism. And it would remain that way really until World War Two. Now what dr. Was picking up from here, thanks very again. Thank you guys for coming out and interest of time. Im going to focus my remarks on African American women and even cut those back. So well have a chance to hear from you guys. Okay. So i first became interested in this topic from parents or my first teachers, my mothers father was completed a 20 some year career and attends calvary. And growing up she told us stories about what that was for she and our family. And that started my interest and african and world. I guess as a kid i want to say blacks in the military and my mom though her father was in the army she knew the policies regarding blacks in the military period. So that really opened up my. Also through graduate school First Talking about in World War Two and undergraduate thesis and then my masters thesis, the integration of the navys World War Two through my reserve program and then dissertation on the female reserve program. So as scholastically thats where that came from. And then while i was still in school between degrees, i started working at the naval history Historical Center then, but and i was an archivist and originally and i was one of those folks like some of you in this room probably, who worked for your in school, had the pleasure of doing that for 12 years. But, you know, thank god i got it. I learned a lot from it. And so at work you come in like any other job with a specialty, but then you develop specialties on a job according to the needs of where you work and so our minds over the years have developed focusing on minorities in the military as we used to say nowadays popular diversity, equity and inclusion. But to look at specifically the roles of women and africanamericans across the services with an emphasis on the navy and im sorry to say a dearth of literature and scholarship out there even today on to address them are either the women in the navy get shadowed by the wax which most of you probably know about the Womens Army Corps that were 4000 of them there were 72 waves. So theres more to do. And glad to be part of that process. But as we look at diversity, equity and inclusion, were trying to learn from the navys history lessons that are there for us to to examine and see how we can do better as an organization on all levels of command. How do you really implement policy . You can have a policy on the wall, but if that Commanding Officer doesnt implement it, what the heck . Its just a piece of paper on the wall. How do you go beyond that . What is really mean . And as you know, thats something the services are grappling with today. And how much do you reflect on the past experi ence without being accused of advocating Critical Race Theory . Im just keeping it real. Its kind of frustrating actually. You just trying to tell whole story of a navy that previously has not been written out, been marginalized, or there are a lot of mis and chapters or pages for africanamericans. And so theres not always acceptance encouragement to do so. And im not just not talking on my command. I just i mean, at large. The other thing is youll find a typically black veterans, black veterans are much more likely to write a book than females just as white male veterans are more likely to write a book than white females. Not everybodys going to write a book, but if were going to caption a history, which is part of what we do how do you make that happen . How do you encourage them to their history somewhere . I know generally at the end of all my talks especially when veterans are an audience and often many veterans here tonight are online with us. Thank you for your service. I encourage them to think about now what are they putting aside that their grandchild read about their military service . Now were in a digital age, but that doesnt mean that you ever produced anything, right . If werent 0fof if you had a water bottle and a pack of wipes, that tells a lot because i was your bathroom facility for so long. Right . So africanamerican women have been with our military very, almost as long as its been in existence either way of camp followers as nurses. They and one one way or another. But im going to stick to the navy tonight. Annie stokes, thank you. Mentioned joe was served on the first hospital ship, the uss red rover, 1962, serving with four nuns to treat the patients. She came out after being injured and, applied twice for her pension and didnt get it. And got her husbands pension before she got hers. Thats true. In fact, if you go to an irs website, her Service Record is right there, can download it. Annie stokes. So as society changes, sometimes it brief it. The military reflects societal standards. So sometimes ahead of it. I would say in the militarys case, for the most part, its been of it. In other parts, you know, theres peaks and its mountains. If you look at a graph where they right up there with it. Right. So as you mentioned, plessy versus ferguson, that was critical justifying segregation in society. All right. The war department, such a policies for the services and any Service Secretary has to carry that out. So world war one, ill start there there. Black served, of course, as as eddie described. But there were also 14 black women who werent talked about so much. My colleague Richard Miller was the to write a scholarly article about the what they called the golden 14 here in dc initially secretary of navy recruited women to to deal with a great shortage of workers and he did so some 11,000 but later in the war 14 women the Navy Enlisted 14 black women and they worked in almost a division that was run by john t rush, an africanamerican i have yet to figure out how he did that under the leadership of Josephus Daniels, an avowed racist who had no desire, have put it politely amongst these gentlemen f but they did serve, but they were largely for a long time until richard and some other a few other scholars started talking about these 14 women out of the 11,000 they did serve. Some were based here in a good number of them came rices family, cousins, sister in law, dont know how he did them. So working on that, but its pretty amazing. Their Service Records are an hour as well and theyre not digitized, but you can get them at the st louis facility. So at the end of world one, as you mentioned, the navy stopped in croydon recruiting blacks by policy until 32 when the status of the philippines changed. And thats a whole nother interest and story we could talk about putting the First Philippine filipinos, i guess africanamericans. So when World War Two begins, there were 5000, 6000 blacks in the navy, all enlisted, you know, women only women in the navy are the Navy Nurse Corps members. Congress established Army Air Corps in 1902. Navy nurse corps in 1908. So the country drafted individuals. Roosevelt is gets a lot of requests because i dont the navys taken enough of their share of the draftees and then as a general Board Meeting and then they try to redefine what blacks should be allowed to do. And so we go from westminster ers and cooks to stevedores basically, literally still no officers. I talked about. There were officers before what you all know was the golden 13, the golden 13 were the Single Largest Group of black Officers Commission during World War Two, there was a bernard robinson. It was at harvard and medical school when the word before the war started was a competition amongst the services to have the Biggest Office medical officer corps. They assumed ti was white because he was at harvard. So theres a memo that says we can only hope he fails because they had no other basis for giving him a commission. Another fellow was an aviator and he was very fair skinned. Some people say he passed. I dont know if he did or not, but oscar holmes lived in maryland and he became an aviator. But because the command and aviation structure can change so quickly and i didnt want blacks commanding whites, they made him an aviator. T in parentheses. That means he trained aviators throughout the war, despite the shortage of aviators during the war. Certainly when i started. So why am i about blacks so much of the men . Because black women endured a double burden that did criminal literary practices against blacks sailors. They endured that as well as the discriminatory practice against women. When the navy set up its female reserve program, which is commonly known as the wave program. Some, you know. What is that . There were men much strong opposition to it. And what woman would join them . Want to join the military . There were members of congress during the hearing so said theyd rather have dogs and cats and women. I mean, just its just terrible. Women werent drafted. This was a proposal. If were going to go to waters in 41, they these hearings lets a real place for them to show time they had to do this because congress changed the legislation allow women to serve so now they got to create place for women to serve. Right. There were advocates even before the attack on pearl harbor, during those hearings and acp representatives, the Alpha Kappa Alpha non partizan council, the sorority and many others who went to congress and they said they want testify. They want a nondiscriminatory put in a legislation, establish in the work, the ways to spars etc. And refused to do it. So the ways were established on. 2030th july 1942. They trained a core group of officers, and then enlisted eventually to be 90,000 of them. Well, this agitation for change and equality for the women, it throughout the war. Its another part of the World War Two civil rights movement. We dont think of it that way, but it very much was. You mentioned immediate eddie the media had a was very much playing role in this keeping the issues before the public the editorials to a council of sailors experiences asking the navy why havent you admitted women . And it was right beside a advertisment from the navy saying we need more women, but they wouldnt recruit black women. So they were going to do this late in the war, the Navy Announces the acceptance of until the waves, you know, words are powerful and theyre deliberate. It doesnt say integrate. It. It doesnt say theyre going to be equal. Thats because they werent. The plan was to bring them in and segregate them, write the secretary of navy, frank knox, when the war began, said thered be waves, black waves over his dead body. According to the wave director, they would never meet his standards for the program well. Be careful what you say he does. And april 44, he succeeded by george by james forrestal, who had worked with blacks, have the same beliefs about race. And he said to navy that just too expensive he knew the roosevelt in the new deal years and so some things were underway way when he when he came into his position but he advocated for change and very strong way and then another factor as election years i dont know if you notice some things are possible during election years that otherwise would happen. Right. Bill davis promoted to a general and what an election year, 1940. Yet they wouldnt let command troops. He made films during the war. Have you all seen the dont have time. So in World War Two, the first two women again, you have an officer corps and then you have enlisted or heard out of pickens, who was the daughter of William Pickens was one of the founders of the acp. Shes a Public Health specialist living in new york. Francis elizabeth wills is a social worker. She told me she was on a train when she read the navys ad and she couldnt believe it. And there was no mail on her family to serve. So the two of them come forward like anybody else. They didnt want to serve what they lived well, guess what . A navy put them. They enter the last class of wave officer recruits be trained two and a half weeks into this as seven or eight week program and pickens finishes second in the class. So then theyre told they get orders and theyre sent to the main training station. Formalistic ways at hana college. It was dubbed uss hunter and there pickens will do physical training lead training and francis classification tests with the recruits to determine where they go. 70 other enlisted ways will follow them. Now, statistically, 72 out of 90,000 is a significant. But the significance is that they were part of the struggle for equal opportunity in the military that preceded world two and continued well after in the military and Society Large they served again. Women were not drafted so that means they volunteered in our military which as far as they knew was going to give them a sort of a segregated experience. And they did very well and used the gi bill because of the what these, 300 and some thousand women who served World War Two in the military. You might have heard of wasp women, air Service Pilots during the war there conversation. We have to find a place for women in the postwar military. So in 1948, july 1940, specifically, the passes the Womens Armed Services Integration act, which gives women a peacetime role, a role in the peacetime services, which some pretty big restrictions. Right. Ask me that issue. And i say to time for you guys. But thats what gave women allow women to stay the war with restrictions. And ill start my comments for audience struck all right before we open up to questions excuse me i just had a thought id based on the comments by my two colleagues that i think might serve as a bridge, we have been talking a bit about individuals and how often when you see the story in own words, you can feel a sense of immediacy that you wouldnt get otherwise. And we as historians thrive on doing that. Now, of course, we to generalize above the individual but if we get back to the individual or im sure you know stories perhaps your own family which course then raises the question the connections between the end of the family and the commune ity. And we see this over over again in the people that studying theyre not acting solely as individuals. They come into military service with their next door neighbor, their cousin, brother, their father in many cases. And then they leave service and go back home with those kind of bonds and in effect, strengthened. But if you keep like if you keep layering those relationships upward, one of the critical pieces is the relation ship of the individual and the families and the communities to the federal government, to military Service Provides the key for end vigils, families and communities to have a direct link with the federal government. And we see this in the pension records we see it and the various kinds of benefits that the federal government makes to veterans and the ways in which individuals then interact with their families. Giving testimony as to each others stories and what have you. But that strengthens that relation ship and we see it over and over again. And its not just a matter of the enlistment from generation to generation, even though thats an important part of it. But weve weve become very much tuned in to the way that pension records show the relationships across generations that the service of an individual may be 150 years ago kind of opens the door to a new relationship. Do you want to comment at all about that, eddie . Oh, no, i think pretty much covered it. Thats very fully in agreement. So. Okay, regina, now id like to hear from the audience. So some of you may have those kind of connection and then that, you know, the vitality of it from your own experience. Yes, sir. In the back, although i to that im a junior at howard university. Go bison my. One and my post address. I was in asleep in my research on the u. S. Colored troops. I found quite a number of them who had originally enlisted in the u. S. Army and then were then moved to join the u. S. Navy or positions in the navy. Im curious if in your research you have seen those stories and maybe have understandings about why these individuals may have been chosen because thats got to have literally no idea about. And ive tried to figure why and i never really could, if not in a way, you know, can answer part of it. And i mentioned the men who had served on the st marys, men who had been enslaved, maryland federal military authorities were in the business of forming africa in American Army regiments in maryland. And they reached a point early in 1864 where they had a number of regiments were partially filled. And they they saw very little prospect of filling them all up in time to get them into the field of battle. So all in one fell swoop in april of 1864, about 400 maryland men were transferred from the army into the navy. So thats the Single Largest Group of men that im aware of, of the description that you describe and. Then they were scattered in the various fleets and squadrons, and so on, but thats what accounts for it. It wasnt their own volition necessarily as much as the governments decision. These men were needed more in the navy. They were in the army. Thank. The questions. And you bring images, sailors and marines for across. Yes, they brought them in. The sailors. You want to repeat the question that i asked if they brought them in a, sailors or marines, or did they spread them all across the different relations . They brought them in as sailors the marines were a separate organization. And even though technically part of the Navy Department, im not aware of the africanamerican marine during the civil war period, did no theres a blacks and not serve in the marine corps from the 1700s until 1942. The navy gets a bad rap, but thats pretty bad. And they had no black officers as the marine corps didnt until after World War Two. What out . How did you come to that back then. Yes, it was six when i was seven. My wife probably knows, but but anyway, i went in and and after boot camp and going to the academy that trained you as a sailor and. Submariner. I was trained that way and i got on a plane heading and uniform on to florida. When i got to florida. About halfway to key west, where i was sent to be assigned, i ran into a situation where i was the only dressed sailor. In the. On the coast, on the on the bus. The i guess most discouraging part that i ran into was i was the only one on there, only black person on full uniform. And there must have been about eight or ten people at the front of the bus at, least for some reason. I was smart enough to sell set toward the back of the bus and so we got there. Everybody got off ahead of me and headed for the lights were on and this is halfway to key west. And i the same thing because i was following but i was stopped at the door and referred around the back and after going through that experience of really finding out what they were trying to do me, i turned around and got back on the bus and when i got to key west, i found out that it was very, i guess, segregated to them, florida, because they had about just a little gap in key west. It was very obvious you had to go about from the front of the base you had to go back to approximately a quarter of a mile. And that the white section, the black section, all you had to do was come out the gate and turn to the right and go down. And i had not experience of this as dominant as it was at that time. So it was kind of discouraging. Discouraging. But fortunately, when you got on the on the boat i was assigned to it. Was it ust chopper . It was so different. But i did have one incident and im quitting while on my head. Thank for sharing that. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Experience. Id like to pose a quick in context to my father was submariner and you know even i think north Atlantic Service in went to europe as well and your time is maybe as i recall that but the just yeah on a Diesel Service on the shop right yes we have come up for to charge the batteries and ill tell you one night was the worst night of my life because i happened to be assigned to the wheel steering. And before i got off there that night, i found out then its time to go home and so just a question, the context of that and sort of, you know, africanamericans traveling and maybe this is more sort of 20th century, but think about expatriates know africanamericans that went to europe and such any narratives, any anecdotes or any interesting narratives, maybe, you know, world war one period or in world wars or just the interaction with maybe in europe and such, just how black sailors were received or any anything that the panel would like to share. Well, ill start, generally speaking, whatever the conditions were on the base, and sometimes they were segregated the navy didnt control the standards of. The city or state in which it operated. So you had to address that. I interviewed two ways at a wave sometime ago. One of them was mexican. But look, white and the other one was black. And they were on a basketball team. So they traveled a lot. So everywhere they went, they had to adjust. Even though theyre a navy uniform to the standards of that society. That meant go on to the back of the side to get their food and the mexican and rita would sit with marilyn on the bus so she wouldnt have to alone because she couldnt sit in a restaurant to eat. So societal norms didnt change, even as native naval policy was moving at a glacial rate from world war one to World War Two, they had to abide by societal norms, though bases themselves were segregated at camp robert smalls, i mean at great lakes, where most elsewhere, unless they had to finish their book at during World War Two, there was segregated camps for camp, robert smalls, muffet and i forget third one, and thats what i trained. Ill give you kind of two examples with sailors like the great white fleet circumnavigation around the globe,. 1907 1909 and they kind of talk about this in the newspaper articles. One of the things they try to do is keep black sailors on the ship whenever everyone else got that limit liberty. Thats one thing they complain about world one this is more of an army. An example. But theres a bit more like fluidity and stuff. In france. So you have black soldiers that interact with france, like the harlem hellfighters, theyre their band is very popular they introduce jazz in france, soldiers are having relationships with with french women and theyre writing about this back to states saying, hey, this is not its not like this. Everyone to the point actually, where army kind of speeds up, bringing black troops back from france to the u. S. Because they dont want them getting the idea and maybe trying to do some of the same things the u. S. Does that answer your question . Okay. In fact, general pershing wrote a famous memo to their Commanding Officers. They were sent over there for manual labor, by the way, and the french realized they could fight. And so many of them, the 369, 37, etc. , they wanted to quadriga their band spoke about when they had a parade in new york. They wouldnt let them participate. Initially initially, germans were very, very afraid of the 3 69 and 373 71st. They did very well over there because they were seen a lot of the biases and things. The culture was different. It was more inviting but there was also a threat if they tried to act that way, even in transit, coming back here, that wasnt good. A lot of black personnel were beat up, robbed or lynched or worse. And then it got to the point where they were told, wear your uniform home. This is after world war one in World War Two. Let me give you one example from the civil war. Theres theres a marvelous account by a man by the name of william b gould, who had escaped from slavery, from wilmington, North Carolina. And he was a very skilled carpenter and plasterer and having escaped from wilmington, made his way to the blockading squadron, and he enlisted and he became the captain steward. So theoretically he was very skilled and had he had some seafaring experience, might have been rated as a seaman. He was rated as a contraband because he had escaped from slavery and. Then on the ship, he became the captain steward. And so happened the ships that he served on were in the north atlantic. So they were chasing commerce, confederate commerce, raiders throughout the north atlantic. Whenever he made the ship, made port, it was his job to go out and get fresh provisions for the captain. And he describes the wonderful times that he had moving about the the various port cities europe as a free man in the United States navy uniform and he describes being treated like a tourist and in fact around to tourist attractions. Now hes exceptional in one sense, though, i think other stewards, especially as captain stewards who then went out into the port cities to get the provisions for their officers, they had some leverage and they had they had position, if you will. They had some swagger. And so they went and got the provisions. They knew the captain expected. But in the meantime, they carried themselves, though here was europe at their at their behest, essentially. So they go and visit the tourist sites as they would. Now, its curious, perhaps, that he did not settle in North Carolina after the war. He settled in delta, massachusetts. Its and his great, great grandson, william b gould. The fourth was chairman of the National Labor Relations Board in the 1990s. And william gould, the fourth, published his great grandfathers diary. And you can find at stanford University Press published it. You might take a look at it, because as to the question of how individuals in those circumstance is in different cultures in that context, could have interacted with a population that didnt treat them as pariahs, as they were treated at home, as very, to say the least. And the other questions thats thats just changed. How is it today in today in his is wangs writings was how is the promotion of blacks and minorities now in the navy. I asked my daughters maid of honor graduated from the academy and i know there are a lot of females they if she was 27 . Yes, right. She was probably at the beginning of it in the eighties. Yeah. And 83. So im just wondering now as far as women and minorities, what is the percentage of being promoted . Is it commensurate with the population thats in the navy . I, i probably shouldnt answer a question about current navy policy or status. I have to go to work tomorrow. But its a very question. But if you want to know, though, maam, go to the chief of naval operations, admiral gilday. Make your day on his website and. Youll see diversity, equity and inclusion. And there are some breakdowns. Another good side is the difference equal opportunity management institute. Thats of florida. They started as a Race Relations institute back in 76. They maintain kind of stats as well. You get sort of get a glimpse of how many ships are there in a navy personnel, etc. , as at a glance its Public Information and theres actually a the navy is actually these issues. They actually a port report in 2021 with all the stats with everyone yes yeah. Different things i dont want to talk about that. But yes, i did. So im just Public Information. But yes, it is. Good point. Just. Yes, well, there most recent. So to having an interest in continuing the story about women postworld war and so im interested in understanding more of the role of black women in the us navy and the wars, especially korea, vietnam and how it paralleled or how it changed for the better or for the worse. You know, in the years that followed. Well, you remember i mentioned the 1948 womens Armed Forces Integration act. 48 was an election year, by the way. And then president truman introduced the equal opportunity executive order, no. 981, which mandated equality of treatment of all military. Thats a process, right . Youre talking about changing a culture. The military culture. And that doesnt happen overnight. So for women in general, i mentioned a restriction restrictions. Thank you for mention for bringing us up. The restrictions included. There could only be one female in the rank of all or captain or colonel and the entire service. And that was the director of the ways works, bars, etc. Women could not be in combat right . So if you became pregnant, you leave the military. But that wasnt written and there was just a policy that didnt change until 75. Those of restrictions from 48 until 78 would be turned over to by way of congressional action, by way of lawsuit. Women soon. You mentioned women at the academy. The academy opened the doors in 76 to women. George, george, george. Gerald ford signed the bill into law that started before then there was a court case. They argued that the school receive federal funds. So you discriminate against these women by not allowing them to come to the school. So the school opened up to women in 76 coming up on a major anniversary. And there were 80 women in the first class, 81 women, one black. Janie, theres a wonderful book called. Audacity. Yes, i got a blank. Im sorry, but its about her life at the naval academy. Its very well done. Its very detailed. Its very transparent about what that was like for her. Her sister went to the academy after her. Things like a civil rights movement, the womens rights. They didnt influence the women who were coming into the service because of these restrictions on you mentioned, what was the status . All women were segregated because you could probably make lieutenant, you were an officer, but you werent going. They couldnt have too many lieutenant commanders or commanders because you got one captain and the entire navy. And thats why a lot of them left. It was stagnated. Also, most Women Officers were trained as some kind of clerical position, you know, officer name for that administrator. But they didnt have the opportunity as we think about today. Right. Women of aviation in aviation and open up to women until 73. The chaplain called it open up to women until 73. No accident. What it did do, they ended the draft and we started the all volunteer force. And thats what under now. So there things affecting womens ability to progress and a lot of it had to do with the standards in the navy the laws that were in place. But a big, big factor was bad for morale was one they couldnt have a family but to there was limited opportunity women couldnt serve on ships. If you become before a Promotion Board come on before board with these these two and all of our jackets are being shown and theyre trying to evaluate who gets promoted and they have sea tomcats who dont get promoted. If im an aviator before 1994, when the combat exclusion law, there were several appeals to the combat exclusion law. The final one was done before donald trump became but secretary of defense ash carter. So were aviators and they can do carrier landings and its 1994 and i cant. Write any year before 94 between 73 and 94 i cant compete with them for job opportunities. I cant compete with them for promotions or command because the requirement was that you had to have carrier class. It wasnt that they werent able. The policy itself them. So the it depends on which Community One serves in general and restricted line or or whatever community and but those policies affected all women and for women even during the time youre speaking 5060s and seventies, they had to endure the policies that were in place to limit women and blacks. So thats why i talked about the double burden. You know ah, you know, i cant say that i never. So thats my answer. More recently they had an appetite on tv and a couple of months of dating that information in order to sit in, see what command you mean. The aircraft . Yeah, that was two years ago, the first woman to command an aircraft area and then they also a female commander to captain farrell to the uss constitution, the oldest ship and a note continuously the and the navys fleet contained 40 best commanders now yes first female, first first first black female. Yes. Thats really only recent. But, you know, can sign up to serve aboard submarines. Well, now that started in 2011. So theyre actually coming up on a personal taste anniversary this one. But we do have our first female cobb chief at boat that happened a year and 18 months ago. And a female xo on a boat. Huge because theyve only been been the Women Officers have been in the sub force since 2010 they enlisted started 20. You know this is reason for me to i got to stop. Im an air force guy and thank you for your service. Oh morning, welcome. One of the things that really amazed me when i was and i was in during a period of 71, was back in those days and was a lot of difficulty in the military actually adapting adapting, understanding, trying to visualize how young officers were going to. Okay. But my question to you who have been doing this i noticed that throughout history, as you well know, the bulk the military is very interested in america comes from the south south, the serious leaders, the cavalryman, peyton. And then you have people like curtis lemay who was an ardent racist do you see that across all the services and how you see that those individuals you spoke of policies they and create and implement and maintain the policies how you see those influence is affecting the progress that was not made throughout this integration period. So youre asking about how where one wants origin and environment might have influenced command decisions. Is that what youre saying how much of the southern leaders. And their beliefs and values systems do you really feel that kind of bled into the lack of policy, direction and inclusion and motivation and momentum for the black communities in the various Services Within the navy . And i saw it within where i was the army, especially the army, but the army and did you run across that . Did you see that thats what my question is. Any of them stand out . Sure. I kind mentioned Josephus Daniels earlier. Josephus daniel of Josephus Daniels was the secretary of the navy during world war one era. Before that, 1898. Hes very instrumental and overthrowing an interracial government in North Carolina. Its a wilmington massacre. You know, the parties were a little bit different. The Political Parties were a bit different than they were now. So when democrats were in power, a lot of white southerners were democrats. And so they needed really to pass any policies they had to really cater to a lot of southern politicians to get any bills that they went through and that meant sometimes something like, lets say the gi bill, for example federal policy, but they leave the implementation up to it to local and state authorities. So that means that the southerners white southerners ultimately decide who the benefits of the gi bill, which is why you see some of these disparities after world two, because even though the policy is race neutral on its face the implementation does not. Does that answer your question . Well yeah. And the reason im asking because i just saw i am pretty sure that this there a policy that extends the benefits to native americans. But of the other minorities im calling how do you do that so what im saying is that those policies are continue doing relative to the leaders that we have in the military. So they stay here all day and so but i want to give our panelists one more round of applause. In the room and virtually we certainly appreciate it. Thank you once again for this wonderful this evening. Youre welcome. Thank you