For my guest here is alfred bosch leader of the Pro Independence republican left on the city council here really now admit that the movement has bitten off way more than it can chew. Out for bush welcome to conflicts of thank you a new country has been born those were your words big words couple of days ago you spoke too soon and you know because the republicans been proclaimed and now the newly born baby well its fragile and we have to make it grow a baby from which the leaders have already fled to belgium to escape possible arrest thats hardly a glorious start to it is that well we might see again something we hadnt seen in europe for decades which is. Politicians looking for a political asylum within europe so that development we should follow closely doesnt the jury a start to your to your republic as it shows the nature of the Spanish State and how something which has been eminently democratic which is being done to respond to a popular mandate Something Like that is absolutely questioned and persecuted by the Spanish Powers so it shows the nature of your leaders that the first sign of trouble they really were well obviously we need to pursue an International Agenda and the best place to do that is brussels and this isnt pursuing the International Agenda this is running the ways it lets lets lets call it what it is this wasnt planned was it that they would go off on some trip to consult foreign powers this was to get away from the possibility of being arrested was that well thats the sole reason well obviously the prosecutor came out yesterday and he stated all the accusations the offenses which hang on these people now one of them is rebellion which could mean up to thirty years and jail the other one is sedition up to fifteen years etc and you have and i was surprised because they hadnt considered that well thats a bit disproportionate isnt it for somebody who has been democratically elected who has organized a vote and afterwards tries to deliver on that vote now for once that politicians deliver we might as well respect them they really hadnt considered that possibility they did the obvious down the state would level charges not that it has done yet but its considering ok now the question is why is half of the Catalan Government here in town in barcelona why is the other half in brussels obviously the half which is which is in brussels is pursuing the International Agenda the catalan republic has to be regular perfect you know most nights they didnt intend to go they got frightened they got cold feet maybe ran away what commander leaves the battlefield in the middle of the. Battle what kind of example is that to everybody i mean there they are telling everybody to resist democratically and they run as fast as their legs will carry them well perhaps we should interview your views and try to find your view because you you seem to know very well what those people are thinking why theyre doing these things im trying to give you my vision of this from within and what i know is that there is right now two people in jail there accused of sedition which was something about which for instance Mahatma Gandhi was accused in nineteen twenty two and these guys face penalties of up to thirty years in jail and this is happening we are having Political Prisoners in spain now why should we have active politicians in jail when they can they can be in brussels working for the recognition of the catalan republic thats all consulting lawyers about how they stand theres half of the cattle in government thats doing exactly that they are staying here and theyre consulting lawyers to see how can they can face all these accusations and penalties but if you dont think they should have what we now get for well maybe but this is how it is right and we have king it up as you go along. Well we have half of the cattle in government abroad working for the cattle republic the other half staying here facing whatever risks might fall on them so i think thats quite a logical and understandable behavior isnt it. Perhaps things are happening in an unexpected way and then you have to take decisions on the run obviously you mean and you cant foresee absolutely everything not everything can be planned meanwhile the Spanish Government has outmaneuvered you as in that its taking control of the regions of ministration with very little opposition of any grassroots support seems to be ebbing away and that the Spanish Government has actually bowed down to International Pressure and pressure from other parties because its plans were and we saw that i mean we heard greg hoy speaking like we could go and its plans were clearly not calling for an election and finally had to call for an election and its a good knowledge that the solution has to pass through democratic procedures so it has actually acknowledged the Spanish Government has actually acknowledged that by sheer use of force and by sheer power they wont solve the question so thats a development and we we read it in a positive way it puts them in the driving seat though doesnt it well i mean you say you have a state a state has been born but there they are theyre setting the date for the elections people are coming forward saying yes theyll take part in the elections Pro Independence groups are saying theyll take part in the elections. Two leading catalan unions the u. G. G. And the c c o o which is supported the referendum they now back the elections as well and they oppose any what was distance on the street as a party we will run for elections obviously we love elections we love the ballot boxes we defended them on october the first with our bodies and citizens who followed this referendum with their trying to help people. About and they were being clobbered and they were being beaten up of the police the elderly ladies whole families theyre defending the vote so were not going to go against the vote were going to go to vote and well try and even if its a Spanish State thats managing because it now acquires a plebiscite tarion kind of sight to it this vote will be a vote to show who has the numbers and who has the majority so we accept that they threw a glove to us we accept that challenge we have to do it and we are democratic obviously weve pursued this always in a democratic manner were not going to lose that quality and maintaining all the time the fiction that you have an independent state that its set up and its in active whatever you call it a fiction moment well im sure your question you put what i asked from from one of the political scientists at the Autonomous University here are real bad to males who said yesterday i dont know if the same quote other scientists who say other things actually says i dont know if the separatists can keep up this fiction of being a real independent republic for much longer well you see that sounds very much like the Spanish Governments view because they say exactly that i wouldnt call it a fiction in the sense that when little mania was declared for instance the independence of lithuania it looked pretty much like thats it took one year and a half to get an important recognition more than when you to get any recognition at all from other countries they were it was a very different situation lithuania had been illegally annexed and it was accepted the only one expired the soviet union yes completely different situ even more so even more so i mean obviously in that case the United States were kind of backing whatever was happening and even so it took more than one year and a half for them to recognize little ania so this kind of fiction went on for a year and a half and it wasnt any action and meanwhile well i mean thats an opinion is respectable but meanwhile the red army was there in fact its the. There for ten years the red army occupied the television the Administration Offices of lithuania so it was pretty much the same you could have set there nobody recognized lithuania the European Union said it wouldnt recognize it they they backed gorbachev and in that in those times lets say lets come back to catalonia no no because hes about to look at is the court of these International Examples help us there all the different thing help us to realize that its not so strange whats happening here is not so awkward its something very common when a newly born country is born it is fragile its unavoidable and we are fighting against Spanish Power its a very well established state its a kingdom has been there for years it and it has an army as a navy it has a Financial Assets obviously its hard obviously obviously we have a very little creature and weve got to cater for it and we go not a ship december twenty one and youre going to take part in the elections that the Spanish Government will be managing are we going to see a continuation of some of the pretty questionable methods used by your movement before the the referendum im thinking of attempts to intimidate and pressure those who didnt agree with you but we can see that before the election weve never seen yours and can you give mean exactly for example give you a concrete example your debug member of the Catalan Socialist Party the p. S. C. Which was against the referendum. He described on facebook the kind of pressure and intimidation that he had suffered for opposing the referee and they called me a quisling he said a turncoat a sellout a coward a wimp and a traitor theyve told me that im a bad cattle and a moron but im a display im despicable im a disgusting faggot you proud of that sort of thing not at all this sort of democracy novell unleashed let me bring you my cellphone and show you of the comments i get there are hundreds of them hundreds of them calling me things like that or even worse i mean of course its crazy people all around especially in the times of the global the Global Networks but i think. Im self has not suffered physically from anybody he has not been attacked but this is intimidation straight intimidate ok how would you compare that for instance to the one thousand people who were injured during the referendum and took over the first who were brutalized not by any crazy people who were brutalized by the state police and by the Spanish Military Police they attacked just in barcelona twenty eight voting station they have apologized for the violence who cares they want to avoid not know and repeal laws and re camilla ok the Spanish Governments representative in the catalonia here apologized for ok said he could not help but regret and apologize on behalf of the officers who intervene yes but i did the opposite ok so. Does the apology mean that that justified. Thats a question you have to not to them not just say not a bit to not just that i dont obviously ologist so but they did it and apart from that they have two people in jail for their ideas theyre being accused of sedition again call it Political Prisoners how welsh would you call it but im talking about the pressure the intimidation noria mary mary of catalonia second you know her very well just must be telling she complained to president expresident boojum about the pressure being put on her and her colleagues she said i told him what a lot of people are thinking a lot of my colleagues are having a rough time putting mayors in the crosshairs wont fix anything itll just add fuel to the fire she said yes look who is being beaten up whos being put in jail whos being prosecutor whos being who had to go to exile now youre talking about people who are still there theyre in office i thought they were there a consultant there actually powers one of them going into exile they going to do it so yes they have to pursue an International Agenda thats what governments in exile do exactly that they are they run away to do the well they cant do it here because theyll be put in jail probably like so many other people have been. Dealt with so. I i think of course any excess on any side has to be put forward has to be condemned and we do it but lets face it who has the power. And whos whos whos preventing people from voting who is preventing people from deciding something and once they decide which preventing that decision from taking place or what did you expect senate on our government to do they have a mandate as a legally elected got a question of expectations and a question of justice but they have a mind of a couple just as a legally elected governor although be very serious about this very serious about proportion and justice and what im saying is the Spanish Government has never been proportionate has never been fear now you dont think they would trigger article world five do what is necessary to defend the constitution well unfortunately we feared they would do it but you know what article one five five is about the International Press your colleagues called it the Nuclear Button that was imposed in direct rule thats in whatever elections took place in catalonia before that ruling a place without going through the ballot box they offered mr putin will a chance to address the Senate Last Week he chose not they offered to set up a commission on constitutional reform you didnt want that your foreign minister said it was just a distraction from the legitimate demands of the cattle and people they said they talked to if you just set aside the gun that you were holding to their head which was your declaration of independence but you wouldnt theyre going to the senate to be due to be shouted at thats not a very how do you know they were in. Yes ive been there i was i was in madrid for four years one whole legislature and thats what they used to do to me when i spoke clearly so imagine the catalan president going there for that put them on offered as you know offer talks. And he suspended the declaration of independence or october tenth in order that the coup be holding talks with the Spanish Government but it was only when the internet was all taken off that with International Mediation he offered it and accepted the Spanish Government didnt want to sit at the table so there has been constant offers to talk about this since two thousand and seven first with a statute of autonomy it was completely cancelled. By the Constitutional Court who as you know is a highly politicized court then the financial deal that patton president went to madrid to try a negotiated financial deal a financial deal the door was slammed on his face and then we offered to talk about the referendum and the greek referendum it was impossible once and again i was there in madrid we offered it sixteen times this according to finance minister of oil who was that right there said no were not going to hold a vote on thats just about how do you solve a question of political if well its true why does the mare. Whos been highly critical of your declaration talk about you advancing at a county karzi pace after what she calls your mistaken reading of the results of the catalan election process your speed has been the result of partisan interests ahead long dash that has been consummated with a declaration of independence that doesnt have the support of a majority of cattle perhaps because she belongs to a Different Party might perhaps because shes not in favor of pursuing the freedom of catalonia perhaps because shes ruling the city in correlation with a socialist who approved and who wrote with marianne or a holy and who agreed to decree article one five five which is imposes direct rule on bars on barcelona in catalonia as a whole perhaps because shes in that line and she holds different ideas but youre asking me but lets pick up if you want to were going to have an interview with the mayor barcelona you asked for an interview with her but youre asking not so i will tell you our view lets bring up their point about the speed of this drive for independence the reason was clear wasnt it youve known that at least since june when the Catalan Center for opinion studies gave you an unpleasant wake up call it said that only about forty one percent of catalans looked like voting for independence and how many against. Doesnt say forty one percent and only forty only forty one percent would vote for independents what they said in june less than forty one percent against and in between you have the undecided what you saw read all the facts but you saw it with but you saw that your support was waning and you thought we were if we dont was growing up it was going to happen its not going to happen so you rushed things. You rush things weve been in this for seven years now perhaps some of the International Opinion and attention has not been here for seven years constantly but it was seven years ago that we started this process there were some consultations here nonbinding nobody could tension of that in spain and madrid after that we asked for the financial deal nobody listened to that after that we hold we held a government consultation nonbinding the result was very clear in favor of independence so weve been doing with his mind was in favor of independence of them in twenty fifteen separate is parties won the most seats here but only forty eight percent of the how many of the unionist parties went and when you tell me you tell me thirty nine percent those are the difference was really quite remarkable and lets look at the polls in line you know the undecided parties who are for selfdetermination but not for independents lets lets play up all this and then i was slain or anything lets look at the polls in the last few days both show your Independence Movement with less support than the unis one poll in el pais has fifty five percent against the declaration of independence forty one percent favor another poll for sigma das still has the pro unionists ahead of you by forty three point four to forty two point five less than one percent you studied all the right surveys and i can bring to you some different surveys and opinion polls if you wish but lets go to the actual voting when people vote they decided on independence in favor of necessity to vote by ninety percent against a ten percent percentage youre asking me about the same or numbers more than percent mortons three points more three percent more than those who decided for breakfast in the u. K. Thousand mother when its already so x. In britain over forty three percent is the actually thats exactly the issue nobody nobody questions breck said even of the percentage of those who voted for separating from the european this very difference is the law but it was a legal resident it was in my. Can just listen reservoir stefano it would be wonderful to be able to express myself and say more than one sentence out of the clear as if. Bracks it was voted for by thirty eight percent of the british now here we had forty two percent of catalans voting for independence is that valid why isnt that valid why is that in one case and not in our case your figures a row fifty two percent voted for births no im talking about the census in both cases as you are talking about the sense im talking about the actual vote but we compare sensor to referee a census people want to compare vote to vote then its actual referendum in its fifty two percent against ninety percent that vote to vote if you compare the same things lets compare the same ninety percent with one side not taking part ok but they were invited let me remind of a small detail you had a ballot i went there i voted like any other citizen who wanted to vote and you had the yes option you had no option and you could choose in fact there were hundreds of thousands of people who voted no to independent so not only was it possible it was followed by hundreds of thousands of people now that made up only ten percent so you know they want a mandate which the mayor a bus a low that among others is contesting youve got why you see contesting the mandate if she went to vote she voted. She said half the battle is the key voting with it now how can you go in vote to a binding referendum because the Catalan Government said it was binding it passed a law saying it was binding and how it was binding and then you go to vote and you say thats not binding and youre not going to obey your own vote its our opinion that its a bit bizarre isnt interprete i know thats why im doing such thing or lets look at lets look at the opinions of the rest of the world since youre the leaders who fredricka who are consulting with them at the moment. Antonio john the president of the European Parliament couldnt have spelled it out more clearly no one in europe will recognise an independent catalonia junkfood younger also pour cold water on the enterprise were not in favor of letting europe develop so that tomorrow wed have ninety five Member States twenty its in the us lets go back this is clear enough isnt there one of your recognised state thats why were going for this youll go in for recognition but there isnt any of the mugs serve United States is a clear European Union exactly aside from exactly exactly you got it it always you sweet anywhere on it we were already independent we wouldnt go for it because we would already be an independent wreck and i staked and were not and thats why we dont feel free enough in this political environment the kingdom of spain apart from being the most corrupt country in the world has tried to prevent us from vote you havent been to has anyone and if you think this is the most corrupt notion that most of the country or but thats not the king of spain i struck to prevent a vote from taking place it has given orders to police to beat up people you saw the images all over the world and what you think of that is that. A place where you would like to stay in there would you really like to stay in a place where theyve tried to put in jail your leaders elected leaders where they try to beat up your grandmas and grandpas to try to preserve the place where you would like tried to inject the law your big problem no big snow coming down just a. Institution of nine hundred Seventy Eight the catalonia accepted overwhelmingly and which makes reference to the indissoluble unity of the spanish nation youre on risky legal ground here you know that but that you know that thats exactly what you that exactly why you want to change it because we thought that was unchangeable you were offered a commission to change the constitution and you just laugh at that not whats a commission if you compare it with the vote of the people first the killings or leave and those are done do you believe in Citizen Rights do you believe in peoples empowerment we do and thats why we think thats more important theres a lot of theres a lot but we think that after seven years of denials of constant and repeated the niles by the Spanish Government we have a right to propose to our people to take a vote and to decide on that one council and printer so were all just waiting for a sentry but were up one council and professor of constitutional law at the Autonomous University to raise a freshness thinks youre dead wrong she says independence is legally just not possible you cant simply hold a referendum and comply and proclaim independence the state has to be recognised by the un without recognition we would be just like Western Sahara or the palestinians or Northern Cyprus is that what you and i not that as a fit pressure she was a colleague of mine because she teaches this stuff yes i was a professor with her very close to her and i also taught about International History and from there we had many discussions now my experience as a professor as a doctorate in International History. Is that the people ultimately decide what they went to what they want to have which kind of state they want to live in and its up to the people to decide that and the laws can be changed if you can change the laws we would still have slavery and if we lose our you know your womens votes no womens rights they would really have time they why did a lot fight in south africa i studied the case of south africa for a long time i just me one your own final question who were running riot its against the constitution against the laws which were completely unfair obviously if you lose the elections december twenty first when you forget about this lets talk after the elections about us were going to win those elections we have won them over all the last elections weve won so why shouldnt we also win these were ready to go to the polls we love the polls we protect them with our bodies so lets go there lets vote and lets turn this into a plebiscite we accept the challenge now for bush good to have your conflicts. Next arab spring could be a feminist one. Muslim women took to the streets demanding their rights the but the fight began much earlier starting in the mid Twentieth Century there were calls for reform. Is a more conservative form of the slowmo driving women to renew their protests. Feminists. Because that where they start to divide the country. Where they start to divide the money which. Will flock to forgive. The soviet union is breaking apart yet the members of the Russian Federation would have to find their own way with. Comically. With the love it was an incredibly difficult time. This democracy was a lie the elections were a fraud say privatization was robbery the soviet Union Territory where does russia stand today and moscows empire our series starting november fifth on w. Health. And hearings to law. Solidarity. They fall by the wayside when the gap between rich and for grows. Life in an equal society is. The divide starting november fifteenth on g. W. When cities are ingolf by the sea. All the dams walls and costly protective measures will have been. Nothing. Whats. Starting november ninth on d w. Stories that people of the world over information they provide the paintings they want to express d. W. On facebook and twitter up to date and in touch follow us. This is t w news coming to you live from berlin no regrets for the band accused of the new york truck attack prosecutors say the suspects say put on a site called for the plank of islamic states to be brought to his hospital room meanwhile the citizens of new york remember those who lost their lives in an update