Syria. Thanks very much for joining us here on the show when my panel is made up of 3 guests here they are beginning with christine held back a featured mideast analyst with a number of European Public ations she says with his plan for northeast and syria putin has made both added one and our sad thing its the kurds who are paying the price also with us our imposing our regular commentator for the berlin based daily developed who argues russia and iran have already won the struggle for syria now its important for the west not to lose turkey on a warm welcome to charlie rose to me a form to w. s Turkish Department he believes turkeys only game is so. Area narrow is to constrain the perceived security threats and help us out remain in power. Brokers who held back about to begin with you and ask you i mean its been a really torrid week in syria once again and id like to ask you sir if you would sort of medicare where we find ourselves now at the end of that torrid week and where this is leading for the the cruelly poor Syrian People yes i mean the battle for syria decided i would argue you know Bashar Al Assad the syrian president won the war militarily with the help of bloody me putin and russia it is just militarily won the war he is regaining control of the last remaining regions which is to the west with military force with the support of the Russian Air Force basically and the north east which she will go back to smoothly and by doing so destroying kurdish autonomy so its decided to this extent and very important is the big guy who holds all the strings in the bank all industries pulling the strings and he does so very cleverly because now he gave her once to some extent what she wanted an area inside syria to resettle Syrian Refugees to control it to maybe build some kind of other talk of protectorate and giving the whole north east back to bashar assad is just lined out but the problem of letting me put it is the following he kept assad in power but he has not the financial means to stabilize this regime so this is why he needs something that looks like a political solution to make the west pay for reconstruction and to normalize relations with damascus so thats the big plan afoot you know how to get a political solution something that looks so to make everybody conciliate with assad ok very fascinating insights to begin with turn over to me to give us an idea of all the turkish people are saying about the latest developments about turkey having such a central presence now in syria. The situation in turkey is quiet like there is only one voice of whats going on in syria and that is pretty much counsel they did by the fact that the media is pretty much console they did under the influence of the government so. When the incursion started apart from the procurators party h. T. T. P. Almost everybody in turkey was kind of line up behind i heard on including the Main Opposition Party including the voices that we were thinking that the would. Challenge ireland in the future they were just all pro incursion and that is mostly b. Because of the fact that this operation is being perceived as as a vital threat to turkey like a threat that would. Put turkish lives at risk so people kind of went opposite after the army and said that were all supporting the incursion maybe in the long term not the political repercussions of it but when it comes to the security on the border yes there was this huge consensus in the country which is very surprising considering the reactions coming from the other parts of the world to do they have to be concerns about the fact that Bashar Al Assad is now resurgent as we just heard from christine and they have already been clashes between turkish units and Syrian Regime units yeah while those clashes were mostly its hard to support a militia units i and they are like just reporters and we dont know for a fact at the moment and those skirmishes could happen because its a war zone and in those versions these things always happen it doesnt mean that the turkish army is fighting Bashar Al Assads army at the moment but i think what is going on in turkey at the moment on the political level as well on the societal level is that people are focusing on the short term. Its of the operation rather than the long term outcomes and we need to have a healthy environment to discuss all the aspects of these and i dont think its being discussed widely at the moment in turkey because of the political atmosphere okey dokey well imposed a new stage in syrias recent history no question mark. Well obviously the new sage in the history of the whole region because basically from what when the british were through in 48 till just recently america was the only name in the game it was the power broker that for all the you know the egyptian israeli reconciliation for most everything and now and after the and now the only name of the game is really newton and maybe the people in iran. This is an incredibly sad geopolitical shift. And we have in the case of turkey a nato member going openly against the wishes of its partners to align itself with with russia which we consider an adverse or e. This is its huge its not just serious the whole region and the european sort of death very quickly to this fact that the u. S. Are out of the game of the middle east and they are not even very much they dont have a lot of affects from the problems in the middle east contrary to europe you know all the all the consequences will be felt inside europe and as mr trump by true pointed out that the u. S. Is 10000 kilometers far away and we are just neighbors so its up to the europeans to think more. In a long term perspective and to formulate visions and interests in the region and how to put them forward and it is ok i know a lot of the attention this past week has inevitably been devoted to the death of a character out of baghdad to be the leader of the socalled Islamic State apparently took his own life after being hunted down by u. S. Special forces so what exactly made him so important. In the end all that was left of the worlds most wanted terrorist was a gaping crater. Selfappointed caliph of the Islamic State terrorist group was no charismatic leader and compared to al qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden who. Killed in afghanistan in 2011 by a u. S. Military special operations unit. Well the daddy locked in public image more than made up for and brutality he bears responsibility for thousands of deaths torture and slave minute attacks by isis the world over. Us President Donald Trump was unabashedly triumphant when he announced albert killing he died like a dog he died like a coward the world is now a much safer place. And security analysts have little doubt that isis has enough financial means and fighters to pose a continuing threat. Has al Baghdadi Death really made the world a safer place. To me whats your answer to that question donald trump says the world is a safer place is it while in the short term it might appear to be so because isis has been already disorganized for the past few good months and. It couldnt carry out the attacks that it used to and the difference the main difference between isis and the organizations like al qaida was that controlled a swath of territory for you know a few good years so in that sense i think. Is a setback for isis in general but the ideology is there or the conditions at which People Choose to join the ices and choose to fight against what they claim to be threats against islam and the rest are going to be there and its not going to go anywhere because the forces the conditions that create isis remains the same in the in the end of the day christiane you have been noting yes i completely agree with that you know the ground for Extremist Organizations there if all over the region you know with respect to the Economic Perspectives that the sense of. Humiliation you know not the opt in for political participation this is these are all conditions that create a filter high ground for any kind of Extremist Organization and isis has not disappeared even in syria we have almost on a daily level we have in the northeast we had attacks car bombs whatever they have to us gone underground and they now use the chaos that was created by the turkish invasion you know to break out of these prisons to reorganize themselves and to us to kind of reorganize themselves and to recruit among the people that are there a lot of family Members Around there so they will just they will start to be a be another force and they dont theyre not disappearing and i dont think that the world is a lot more safer now you know what about donald trump whats whats his position now let me get to to you hes ordered this mission against part of the hes wallowed in the success of the mission does that mean that he has learned the error of his ways in india surely appearing to withdraw u. S. Forces completely from syria no i think. Thats an aberration i mean they had the opportunity theyve been planning this for a long time for months and they and they carted out with panache had self to the u. S. Special forces into the people who helped them. Every dead terrorist is a good terrorist but the fact is that on the one hand he does this and on the other hand as been pointed out he pulls out of an area leaving. The kurds who are godling thousands if not more of i says terrorists in the lurch they desert in these camps of course because they have to fight or have to relieve the region and these terrorists are going to come back home not to find states to europe the fact is that donald trump has decided to cut his losses in the middle east hes decided we spent 5 trillion dollars there weve lost 7000. 00 men were going to go home and leave it to the rest of the world to sort it out he said he said oh these people have to fight it out its like 2 kids in a school in a School Ground you have to let them fight but its not going to be like that it might look that way from washington but its not going to be laid out for us because these isis terrorists are going to come home to us if if if russia of course the shots in the middle east were going to see the consequences in myriad ways theyre going to assert themselves more in europe later too and so on and so on and so on and we didnt even take responsibility for the isis fighters that have all nationalities right talking about 84. 00 german isis fighters and the family members a 3rd of them is considered to be danger danger us so we should have taken them before this is what the kurds asked us for this is what the trump asked us for and we still try to you know keep them away you know to and now they will come in and in a regulated way which makes it even more dangerous americans got permission from the russians to use the air space to control to carry out the bug the mission what does not tell us about the bizarre and often unfathomable relationship between Vladimir Putin and donald trump at this point in time that when it comes to terrorism. They are ready to cooperate but its very interesting to discuss where he was hiding he was hiding in the north part of it live example kilometers away from turkey turkey supposed to control this area with 13 observation posts so what are they doing out of was they not do not i i dont get i mean i personally cannot speculate on that whether turkey had the intel that he was hiding over there or not they might have some intel about it but we shouldnt forget the fact that for the government in turkey the private private priority at the moment is Syrian Democratic forces or have turkey causes why p. G. So isis has always been a threat to turkey it carried out attacks in turkey it killed so many people incurred in turkey as well but at the end of the day its the white p. G. That turkey is prioritizing its mission into so and it was fucking who let all these foreign fighters pass through turkey to reach during during the war also says in the tape said the Syrian Opposition to take part in the in the Northern Syria ok will also speculation one thing is for sure developments in recent weeks have certainly played into the hands of lot of my putin as we see. Turkish president rate chip air to one needed a favor from russian president putin. Turkey a nato partner found itself asking its old bold russia for permission to intervene militarily in Northern Syria. The images make plain the new balance of power in the region lattimer putins russia is now the dominant peacekeeper in syria the agreement between putin and gives a boost to syrian president bashar assad through him putin can secure his position in the region in return assads getting nearly one 3rd of his territory back while the stations troops along the Turkish Border in the north. After withdrawing its forces the United States has virtually no part left to play is the u. S. Fading to a Regional Power while russia returns as a. Power. Look to the other already lets just talk a little bit more about Vladimir Putin the report suggests that he is the new good dominant player in the region i think thats what you said earlier if he is the dominant player in the region is that a good thing or about think its a terrible thing of course i mean for one thing he doesnt have the means to back up the power hes got russias economy the size of spain right they cannot control a world empire which they just falling into that into their lap due to the west and. I dont know not caring and so he he can be what he wants to be in the end hes hes managed to to as i say i but its just the beginning of further complications further down the road theres no way that russia can impose the kind of peace the kind of thing that the Pax Americana once was and hes definitely not a peacekeeper i mean it was just that he was the only peace keeper and he was keeping peace inside syria everybody just intervening for his own interest and if you talk about russia you have to mention that in it live during the last few months and years lots of medical places hospitals were attacked its 54 hospital since april and we have a very very Strong Research by the New York Times that in very detailed form proves that that was an attack on 4 hospitals within 12 hours by the Russian Air Force so this is very crucial to understand how ready poutine leads a war against civilians you know and its not an anti terror war but if you just brothers you are serving me here in the influence of luck to me putin is baleful as you are making out why is turkey going so promiscuously to bed with me putin i think turkey has been pushed to the to do that in one way. Pushed by the west pushed by the nato and pushed by most importantly the United States. So whenever turkey wanted to get something out of the u. S. Whether that be the Patriot Missile systems that was not approved by the Obama Administration that turkey had to go to russia knocked on the door and said we want as 44400. 00 Missile Systems and it was only after that that the u. S. Decided to put sanctions on turkey because it might potentially threaten the Radar Systems of 35. 00 fighter jets that are coming up so in all cases turkey has been somehow pushed to the to the russians to be able to deal with its perceived sickert thats right thats one thing and on another level turkey has used this double game as a leverage over time it also used that during the cold war where it was aligned with Nato Alliance and an soviets were the enemy but turkey sometimes was using that to get what you wanted and i would on has been playing this cards for a good 20 years almost now and as like the context is so complicated right now in the ground like sometimes are going can i get what he wants sometimes put it can i get what he wants sometimes trump kind of get what he wants and i think theyre just trying to find a way to maneuver in this making you go along in this in this puzzle and find a way to get what they want but the sad part is that its not up to trump in a more its not up to the u. S. President any more so counterbalance the reactions coming from the from the u. S. Itself so youve seen the resolutions on the decisions just passed over the past 2 days from the house of representatives in the u. S. And they have the super majority to put sanctions on turkey so trump cannot be the gatekeeper to veto these decisions anymore so. Nice to find a way to call them is not only trump but also other u. S. Representatives to be able to stop. Huge sanctions coming up now because i heard on himself his wealth is being under investigation in the us or will be i would argue theres a certain chemistry between add on and putting right because these are 2 autocrats. Effectively pushing their own interests you know and if you remember its 4 years ago that turkey would down a russian fighter jet and everybody was afraid of a new war and you had sanctions very strong reactions from moscow and then have a year later there was just you know 2 guys clapping that shows that ok lets Work Together again you know theyre very pragmatic theyre very quick in their decisions and this is what the west especially western europe liberal democracies cannot follow on you know looking very thoughtful and im wondering if i mean there are a growing number of voices just come back to turkey saying that turkey should somehow be arming the no theres no way that it can actually be done theres no mechanism in nature but some which turkey should be ejected from nato i think would be the total wrong reaction i mean look. You know you dont have to have to like mr i dont who who does nobody does but no i mean he has many followers you know likes him in the west i mean hes hes a pain but turkey is an indispensable ally its a resilient state its not somethings going to fall apart like syria or other arab countries like iraq its a resilient state its been a bow walk against in the cold war in spite of double playing and so its still crucial to solve every problem gas in the in the Eastern Mediterranean the precise cries is the refugee crisis theres no way if we push took it too far were going to you know and now do one knows this and he torrence us with this but hes right he says ok ill let all the syrians of 3000000 ive got ill let them come to europe do you want that and hes right hes got us by the short hasnt and i think you have to recognize that and you have to try and pull back. Into into the fold rather than pushing it further into the russian camp but i think also we need to discuss it least like you know Pay Attention to the fact that these all the allotments are happening in the shadow of the mistake developments and in the countries in respect so like for instance from the turkish perspective in turkey are the wrong was not having his best days just before the incursion he has been losing ground his like former allies were turning against him on him to form a new party is the opposition was on the rise a lost soul many municipalities and major cities in the local elections so iran was in a kind of lonely position just before the incursion and you know what happened after the turkish start of the incursion apart from the procureur dish Party Everybody line up lined up behind ira gone in support of the encouraging including the Main Opposition Party and we have a thing that the foreign enemy yes. To consolidate his power already consulate his father we have a refugee situation in 30 with over 3000000 Syrian Refugees and. The turkish population is no longer happy about the whole thing over 3000000 refugees theyre turning like you know racist attacks on the rise in turkey and he needs to somehow find a way to divert attention not only that you would remember that when the incursion started one of the discourses was that were going to resettle 1000000. 00 Syrian Refugees in these in these safe zones which he said that we did in the west of the freights of the river after the last operation and now this time in the east of it but its not going to happen because of this all the all the agreement that is struck with the u. S. And russia so he needs to divert the attention and we can also discuss about the position in the u. S. And i would love to go so many Different Directions we could go even though theres been a lot of ground was covered with i can see the clock is ticking though it is against us so im just wondering if i might announce the following question to each of you and get a sort of a relatively short answer which outcome of the sort of the constellations the coalitions the alliances that that are in the offing in syria but what would be the best outcome for the long suffering Syrian People kristie oh the most realistic one is not the one in the interest of the Syrian People and so i lines are shifting in syria which is the very interesting part of it and the new shift will be that. We conciliate with us not this is just happening and this is very clever by putting out the one with the yes and tookie was the country that mostly supported Syrian Opposition dont forget that the syrian uprising so now they will switch because they will say from our perspective assad is the lesser of 2 evils we will rearrange all self syrian troops along the border Russian Military police can even withdraw putting is that we had been normal responsibility there and this will be a major shift and the prize will be paid by Syrian Opposition or by Syrian People that will long for something called. Freedom and dignity which is not there anymore so i would argue that the west should not fall into this trap of an International Diplomatic solution which is not taking place because assad will just keep his power the way he did during the last decades of study i 2nd that opinion and i think that i will genuinely have to find a way to deal with a sudden its already happening and hes already delivered to my zing future in syria i agree with the argument that its the lesser of 2 evils you know instead of having or threatening turkey lets deal with us all because turkey or the law for a minute things that it was trying to achieve in syria. Its a catastrophe is a catastrophe for the primarily for the kurds secondly for all the rest of the syrians who wanted Human Dignity and thirdly the west which is lost any influence it might have to project those values that alone but your interests so im afraid you know id like id like to project some hope but i dont see any. Theres a lot of tunnel at the end of the light. Percent give us a little bit of hope you got tense or needs yes i mean we should we should focus on syria diaspora People Living in here yes and stressing the fact that they cannot go back to assad syria work with them here for a Brighter Future and some time in the future focused on the franks very much for your im sorry its all for of you today for being here on 2 very year to the pointer weve been discussing old faces new alliances who will win the battle for syria thanks for being with us and by by shows. Up. Cut the bottom of. You can stay in. Power there dashing to the climate crisis. Scientists looking into the intelligence of plants to see what they can learn. To love and that amazing ability. To borrow today. 30 minutes on d w. You know aziz every goal is to the right should suck it means and how among. Many people in afghanistan think its wrong for women to do sports and trying to stop the. 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This is e w news live from bali to see him for shootings in the us china trade war german chancellor Angela Merkel arrives in india to talk trade on security good side see potential to boost trade me fallout from trunk power of all with china also coming up full steam ahead for the impeachment process as u. S. Lawmakers vote to make their inquiry official topic what does it mean for president trump. Now theyre on the front line