Argentinians withdrawing from a Cooperation Agreement over the Falkland Islands, the foreign secretary has announced a visit to the overseas territory in solidarity. But another overseas territory is under attack too , territory is under attack too, too. Britain is set to hand over the Chagos Islands to an ally of the Chagos Islands to an ally of the Chinese Communist ists amidst a contentious un court ruling. State of the nation starts now. Starts now. To defiantly holding the state of the nation flabellum tonight is britains longest ever serving political editor. Now proudly gb news senior commentator , the great nigel commentator, the great nigel nelson. As always , i want to nelson. As always, i want to hear from you. Its a crucial part of the programme. Email me mail mog at gbnews. Com. But now thats what weve been waiting for news day with for the news of the day with polly middlehurst. Jacob thank you and good evening to you. Well, the top story tonight from the newsroom is that the Greater Manchester mayor axing the northern mayor says axing the northern leg two would be the leg of hs2 two would be the desperate act of a dying government. That as a number 10 government. That as a number 10 source told gb news earlier today that no decisions have as yet been taken. Andy burnham has called on the Prime Minister to end the shambles on hs2 following increased speculation about the rail projects future. A number of government ministers have also called for the project to be reviewed due to spiralling costs as well. The chancellor, jeremy hunt, says it shouldnt cost ten times more to build a railway in the uk than just across the channel in france. And the chancellor has france. And the chancellor has also announced plans to freeze the expansion of the Civil Service and reduce its numbers to pre pandemic levels. During his speech at the conservative Party Conference in manchester today , jeremy hunt said it would today, jeremy hunt said it would save the government £1 billion next year. Meanwhile he announced tougher benefits, sanctions on those who are capable of working but choose not to. And a National Living wage rise to £11 an hour. Wage rise to £11 an hour. We promised in our manifesto to raise the National Living wage to two thirds of Median Income and ending low pay in this country. At the moment, this country. At the moment, its £10. 42 an hour and were waiting for the low Pay Commission to tell us next Years Commission to tell us next years recommendation. But i years recommendation. But i confirm today what ever that recommendation will increase the National Living wage to at least £11 an hour next year. Thats a pay £11 an hour next year. Thats a pay rise for 2 million workers in what liz truss called on the chancellor to cut Corporation Tax back to 19 from 25 in its next autumn. Statement. Speaking at a statement. Speaking at a fringe rally today in manchester, the former Prime Minister urged the tory leadership to axe the tax cut bills and build homes. Her comments come after jeremy hunt told gb news no substantial tax cuts were possible this year. Cuts were possible this year. But ms truss said businesses are now choosing not to locate in the uk and they shouldnt be treated like a cash cow. A treated like a cash cow. A Second Police force is investigating allegations against the comedian russell brand. In a statement, Thames Valley police said its received new information relating to harassment and stalking allegations dating back to 2018. They added it would be inappropriate to comment on an ongoing investigation. It ongoing investigation. It follows a joint investigation by the sunday times and channel 4. Russell brand himself denies all accusations of criminal city. Accusations of criminal city. And lastly, Junior Doctors and consultants were on strike today in a three day walkout, the longest ever period of joint strike action until thursday morning at 7 00. Theyll deliver whats being described as a Christmas Day level of staffing. Their last joint strike in september led to almost 130,000 appointments, having to be rescheduled. And the government rescheduled. And the government says the walkout is doing a massive disservice to patients. Massive disservice to patients. Thats the latest news. This is gb news across the uk on tv, in your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news. This is britains news channel. News channel. Well, welcome to the tory Party Conference. Im sitting here in one of the main halls. Theres still a hubbub going on of excitement of all the discussions that have been taking place today. The most taking place today. The most important one is about growth and how do you make our economy grow . Because weve been falling behind the United States and countries that have been leading the pack. Yes weve been ahead of sclerotic germany and france, but weve been falling behind the more dynamic nations. And this matters because if we have Economic Growth , we all become Economic Growth, we all become better off and we allow people to achieve their natural human ambition of ensuring that their children and their grandchildren are more prosperous than they are. And there are various aspects of this. Theres the tax aspects of this. Theres the tax aspect and theres the regulation aspect. And within the regulation aspect, theres all the discussion to have about green regulations. But lets focus on tax because thats where liz truss , the former where liz truss, the former Prime Minister, made most of an impact earlier on today, and she really stated a conservative case, a case that jeremy hunt would not disagree with. But of course, you cant expect a chancellor to announce tax cuts anywhere other than in the house of commons. So it may be that better news will come from him. Better news will come from him. Wait and see. Hold your breath. Wait and see. Hold your breath. But lets talk about the rationale for tax cuts and for a more efficient tax system, because because there are efficient and in office ancient taxes. What does the government aim to do . Well, it has to raise money from taxpayers to pay for pubuc money from taxpayers to pay for public services. Defence of the realm, the police, welfare, pensions and the health service. In a way that is the least economically damaging. And some taxes are more economically damaging than others. Income tax and vat or sales taxes. These and vat or sales taxes. These are efficient, pretty much seamless taxes because theyre paid from things that have to happen. You have to be paid unless tax is so high, you become a volunteer here. And the money that is taken by the state is taken at a point at which you receive it. So you dont have to do anything else other than allow the transaction take place. Capital tax is a much less efficient because you dont need to sell an asset and therefore Capital Gains tax is voluntary. You dont need to move house. So stamp duty tends to be voluntary death duties. Oddly are also voluntary because there is not you cant choose, not to die. I mean, im aware of that, but they are basically voluntary because there are ways of organising your affairs so that you dont pay them. These taxes are very inefficient ant and bear down on Economic Growth and bear down on Economic Growth andits and bear down on Economic Growth and its why theyre the ones that should be at the forefront of reform. Um, why are death of reform. Um, why are death duties so inefficient . Ant well, duties so inefficient . Ant well, they encourage to distort they encourage people to distort they encourage people to distort the allocation of capital and the allocation of capital and the allocation of Capital Investment is what leads to Economic Growth. But youre discouraged from investing in the stock market and encouraged to invest in farmland. And to invest in farmland. And because of death duties , this is because of death duties, this is extremely inefficient and stops the economy from , um, growing. The economy from, um, growing. But our whole tax system has become sclerotic and complex because the government wants people to do things it thinks are good rather than allowing people to choose for themselves. But you, ladies and gentlemen , understand that you make better choices for yourself than i can for you , or that ministers i can for you, or that ministers can for you. So you want to can for you. So you want to restore personal choice by having lower taxes and a more efficient tax system. And that means doing what Ronald Reagan did in the 1980s. What did he do . He cut the tax rates, but simultaneously cut out exemptions. Those things you could use to write off taxes because that encouraged people to just earn as much as they could and then pay a fair level of tax applies to Corporation Tax, particularly where complex right offs make the system more difficult and unwieldy to use this simple tax low tax, economically efficient taxes is actually is what will pay for pubuc actually is what will pay for public services. Thats what liz truss and i were talking about it earlier. As always, i want to hear from you. Dont forget to let me know your thoughts on, you know, the email by now. Mail morgue gbnews. Com with me to morgue at gbnews. Com with me to discuss these intricate matters, im joined by gb News Business and economics editor Liam Halligan and our mighty flabella mulder gb news, senior political commentator nigel nelson. Nigel commentator nigel nelson. Nigel isnt it sensible all to get a tax system that actually has lower rates and fewer write offs because we know from experience that that raises more money and has lower Economic Impact . Yes. Well, i agree with you. Is its absolutely right to try and take some of the complexities out of the tax system. Thats fine. Where i system. Thats fine. Where i dont agree with you is that we should be cutting taxes now. I should be cutting taxes now. I mean , two reasons for this. Mean, two reasons for this. Firstly, that i agree with jeremy hunt that inflation has got to be got under control before we actually get rid of. We start lowering taxes. I dont agree with jeremy hunt that a 5 de increase in inflation is somehow a five pee in the pound boost to the income. If we had zero inflation at the moment, that food has still got up 25 since 2019. Its still that much more expensive. Five but more expensive. Five but certainly get rid of the complexo ities equally , i think complexo ities equally, i think the tory party needs to go back to where it used to be. Tax cuts are an aspiration and suddenly they become an obsession , an they become an obsession, an okay and do you think its a problem for the tory party . And we can have a couple of clips. Liz trusss speech today clips. Liz trusss speech today and the chancellors speech perhaps setting a different tone. Lets hear what liz had to say so lets start with axing the so lets start with axing the tax base. We need to unleash business across britain. We need people to want to invest in our country. We need businesses to be able to export and to grow, to create new jobs, to create new ideas. And thats why im new ideas. And thats why im calling upon the chancellor at the autumn statement to put corporations back tax back down to 19. And frankly , if we can to 19. And frankly, if we can get it lower, the better. Get it lower, the better. And jeremy hunt took a rather different line, which is also worth listening to. No tax cuts are possible in a substantial way at the moment. Way at the moment. So its not just inheritance tax, its income tax. Its all the different taxes that people look at. If we start having big tax cuts , it would be tax cuts, it would be inflationary and when weve got inflationary and when weve got inflation at 6. 7, its come down a lot. But it needs to come down a lot. But it needs to come down a lot. But it needs to come down a lot. But it needs to come down a lot more. And the fastest way a lot more. And the fastest way we help to families who we can give help to families who are finding life really tough is to get inflation right down. And thats the priority of me and the Prime Minister. Nigel is that what chancellors always say when theyre an autumn theyre not doing an autumn statement or a budget, does theyre not doing an autumn stareallyt or a budget, does theyre not doing an autumn sta really mean budget, does theyre not doing an autumn sta really mean it . Iget, does he really mean it . He really means oh, i think he really means it. He is actually hes it. I mean, he is actually hes going a further about going a stage further about taxation. Hes not saying ill tell you about it at the autumn statement or the budget, but what saying is im ruling what hes saying is im ruling them out, which i think is the right thing to do. And the obsession youve got about taxation at the moment. What worries me a bit is its not taking account the things taking into account the things that weve neglected for 50 years. The ageing population, the effect on the nhs of that , the effect on the nhs of that, how weve neglected pensions. So theyre going through the roof, all these things could have been dealt with if politicians had had the courage and werent frightened of the voters some time liam isnt the answer to but liam isnt the answer to all this growth and youre all of this growth and youre not you not going to get growth if you have tax take that have the highest tax take that weve had in 70 years. Well, i must atmosphere at the must say, the atmosphere at the liz meeting, which liz truss fringe meeting, which you chaired , you spoke at, which i chaired, it reminded me of the church scene in the Blues Brothers when people were backflipping down the aisle , there was a real the aisle, there was a real sense of fervour over tory activists there cheering loudly when i pointed out that liz truss was actually elected by activists , whereas rishi sunak activists, whereas rishi sunak wasnt. Wasnt. And i think the reason there is an obsession about tax, i agree with nigel lawson very much because of course the much is because of course the tax take as a share of gdp in this country is at a 70 year high, weve had stealth high, high and weve had stealth taxes. The freezing of thresholds, some millions of not particularly wealthy people. You know , teachers, middle managers know, teachers, middle managers , Police Officers are now paying tax at the top rate. And that , i tax at the top rate. And that, i think, is a major problem. But i do think, as nigel says, its a question of timing. I do believe that jeremy hunt and rishi sunak wants to cut taxes. But i think wants to cut taxes. But i think in contrast to liz truss, who wants Immediate Tax cuts, they wants Immediate Tax cuts, they want to wait to get the maximum drama and kind of effect of those tax cuts. They want to wait till next spring just before a general election in order to enact them, in order to get the maximum impact on the electorate. But looking at it as a political commentator, do you think the tax cuts need to be implement before an election or about to take place as an election happens, which is more politically powerful . Do people trust the. Never, never . No. I think that what happens is if you do it before the election, it looks like a sweetener to the electorate that if you are the responsible with the economy , which is what the economy, which is what jeremy hunt says he is, then the prudent thing to do is say, no, no tax cuts until weve got inflation back to the bank of england target of 2. So liam , is england target of 2. So liam, is it ridiculous to think that actually liz is being very helpful to jeremy hunt because shes making the intellectual case for tax cuts . Case for tax cuts . So if you were to do it just before an election, he could say, look, this intellectual case been made and its been case has been made and its been made conservatives. Case has been made and its been ma not conservatives. Case has been made and its been ma not doing conservatives. Case has been made and its been ma not doing thewnservatives. Case has been made and its been ma not doing the electionves. Im not doing the election opportunity opportunistic thing. Im doing something which actually many people have been saying i should do for some time. I think theres something in that. I think whats also in liz trusss is preparing for trusss mind is preparing for a post sunak conservative party. Theres an awful lot of talk here about the fact that the conservatives in many peoples minds will lose the next the next election. Theres a battle ofideas next election. Theres a battle of ideas going for on what sort of ideas going for on what sort of conservative party is going to inherit that post sunak crown. I dont think for a minute liz truss is going to become tory leader again, but she want leader again, but she does want to crowns the to be somebody who crowns the next tory leader. And just on the idea of responsibility, yes, of course its irresponsible to go for tax cuts in a situation where theres lots of public spending obligations. On the other hand , and the electorate other hand, and the electorate is also noticing that the second biggest item on the governments Balance Sheet at the moment is debt interest. Were paying £110 billion a year in debt interest , an absolutely enormous sum. More than we spend on education. More than we spend on education. More than we spend on defence. Second only to the nhs. And that second only to the nhs. And that is a function of Big Government and big spending. Well, i think were going to have to draw stumps there though i a sympathy for funded i do have a sympathy for funded tax thank nigel and tax cuts. Thank you to nigel and liam dont let me liam. Dont forget to let me know think. Male know what you think. Male mortgage after the mortgage gb news. Com after the break. Mortgage gbnews. Com after the break. The message ill be break. The message is ill be asking the trade asking the former trade secretary fox whether its secretary liam fox whether its time to free britain from the stranglehold relentless stranglehold of relentless regulation. Plus britains regulation. Plus britains overseas territories are under attack. And we have just the man to defend radio. We welcome back. Im still Jacob Rees Mogg and this is state of the nation. Youve been getting in touch with your thoughts, philip son, thats the Prime Minister needs to saying a reduction in to stop saying a reduction in inflation tax cut that just inflation is a tax cut that just insults peoples intelligence. People more informed today people are more informed today because news great man because of gb news great man philip than other news philip than any other news channel. People want a real tax cut, not baloney. And edward or possibly andrew says, why are we not talking about productivity . It comes first before growth. And more importantly , it focuses and more importantly, it focuses on getting of the plethora , on getting rid of the plethora, good plethora of good word, plethora of inefficiencies that have built up stopped, up and not be stopped, especially during covid the especially during covid and the aftermath. Thank you. Keep aftermath. Thank you. Keep getting touch. Well, we spent getting in touch. Well, we spent time the messages time before the messages discussing taxes and opportunities to cut costs. But the other side of the anti growth coin is regulation on. I rememberi anti growth coin is regulation on. I remember i was obsessed by politics, even as a child in 1979, a Party Political broadcast where there were runners on the track and one of them was wearing the union jack, and he started running and he was out in the lead. We used to be of britain being in the be proud of britain being in the lead and then lead in those days, and then somebody came on a bureaucrat. I expect , and put weight somebody came on a bureaucrat. I expect, and put weight around expect, and put a weight around his neck and then another weight and another weight and say, his neck and then another weight and poor another weight and say, his neck and then another weight and poor union, er weight and say, his neck and then another weight and poor union, jackight and say, his neck and then another weight and poor union, jack besuited say, this poor union, jack besuited gentleman was falling to the back of the pack and thats what weve been doing with regular action in recent years. Weve gone back to holding our selves under heavy weights and weve got to stop it. The Prime Ministers green regulation reforms are extreme welcome, but are only a beginning. I realise are only a beginning. I realise how ridiculous this was in my admittedly brief time as Energy Secretary when i discovered that British Steel was expected to continue producing steel despite might making a loss on every tonne it made because the emissions trading scheme would have penalised it if it hadnt carried on producing, it would have lost credits for the following year. Now the current following year. Now the Current Business secretary has hit the nail the head regarding this nail on the head regarding this when said earlier today on when she said earlier today on the conference stage in 1988, a cabinet minister said you can build far greater and far more lasting prosperity by letting people cooperate in the freedom of the marketplace than by making them submit to the coercion of government regulations and state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy. That minister was the late nigel lawson. A man who helped nigel lawson. A man who helped turn this countrys fortunes around. And well, i think around. And well, i think i called her the Energy Secretary. But Kemi Badenoch is, of course , the president of the course, the president of the board of trade and business secretary. But ive now got a former president of the board of trade me, dr. Liam fox, as trade with me, dr. Liam fox, as well as with me. Gb news well as still with me. Gb news is political commentator is senior political commentator and nigel nelson. Liam you had to try and deal with these issues and to what extent do you think regulation is holding us back and is the real problem for productivity and efficiency in the uk economy . Regulation is one of the problems we have. We have others. I think problems we have. We have others. Ithink were problems we have. We have others. I think were serious about. I think if were serious about being a conservative government that takes long term decisions, then what we need to concentrate on are Small Businesses. Despite on are Small Businesses. Despite what you would come to surmise, watching the National Broadcasters , the mainstream broadcasters, the mainstream broadcasters, the mainstream broadcasters , only 17 of people broadcasters, only 17 of people in this country work in the pubuc in this country work in the public sector. Most people are in the private sector. 87. 5, 69 of those of those are in Small Businesses. In other words, Small Businesses employ more than 50 of all the people in this country. Now, the tory this country. Now, the tory party should be the Natural Party every van man and party of every white van man and woman in this country and every white coat, man and woman in the tech need to make the tech sector. We need to make the case. And if we have got fiscal headroom in the spring, whenever that comes, im not in favour of us reducing taxes to support consumption. I wanted to reduce taxes on Small Businesses to invest in prosperity. Thats thats where we need to go. And we need to look at some of the elements that are affecting small. And that Small Businesses. And that threshold Business Rates and so on, because if we can give a strong signal to that grouping that the tory party is on their side, thats an awful lot of voters and a lot of potential prosperity that would be fundamentally important. Threshold is and the vat threshold is something where people deliberately dont business deliberately dont do business because cross the because if they cross the threshold, become 20 less competitive. Makes risk averse it makes people risk averse at a time. Actually want at a time. We actually want people be more people to be more entrepreneurial need to entrepreneurial and we need to deal one other which deal with one other issue, which you of course, very off you are of course, are very off with , which access to with, which is access to capital. We need to make sure that those Small Businesses have genuine access to flexible capital. Well, othennise we will lose , as we do people to the lose, as we do people to the United States and losing our ip with it. And youre absolutely right, highlight Small Business because big business, big business likes business actually likes regulation , doesnt regulation, doesnt it . The government and lobbies the government for keep for regulation to keep competitors thats and competitors out. Well thats and thatis competitors out. Well thats and that is the nature of the corporate world. Its cosy. It has cosy its cosy. It has cosy relationships with governments around the world. We need we need be Disruptive Force need to be the Disruptive Force in that. We need to get set our creative entrepot years free from not just from regulation, from notjust from regulation, but these fiscal all ties around our neck. And we need to, i think as a party, recognise that this is the natural home for the we are the natural for these voters and weve got to be serious about it. In 1979, mrs. Thatcher didnt just sell Council Houses , she cut the Council Houses, she cut the price by 30 to 50 to make sure that, as she said, people understand that im serious. We need to do something similar. Nigel if we did, this would be a real challenge for labour, which doesnt like van which doesnt like white van man. Remember man. I mean, you remember the by election when labour by election when a senior labour figure tweeted disparagingly about the Saint Georges flag being displayed . Theres a sort being displayed . Theres a sort of condescension to white van man from the labour party. Man from the labour party. Well, that was just from one person. In fairness , yes. Person. In fairness, yes. But symbolised so. But it symbolised so. But it symbolised so. So i think that the you wont be surprised that my politics differ from the two of you and probably slightly to the left probably a slightly to the left of you both. Think of you both. I do think regulation lord balfe. I do regulation lord balfe. I do think the regulation is important. Think the regulation is important. The think the regulation is important. The free market cant important. The free market cant be totally free, which is why it must be regulated. And you cant must be regulated. And you cant have a guy climbing a ladder without some health and safety regulations to go with that. You couldnt drive your car safely if you didnt have a whole set of regulated options that keep you on the road. The question, obviously, is which regulations to get rid of. And i was astonished about the idea that we would suddenly get rid of 3500 eu laws just like that. I know its been been weve gone back on that now , now. But just back on that now, now. But just the mere idea of doing that without examining them i think is extremely dangerous. Is extremely dangerous. But it didnt happen. So we cant happen because because because the road back on that didnt happen because the Prime Minister decided that what was important nature of the important was the nature of the regulation, origin of regulation, not the origin of the regulation, which was quite right. Sensible thing right. Thats the sensible thing to that doesnt mean to do. But that doesnt mean that have a serious that we cant have a serious look at deregulation. Were having at the moment, having an issue at the moment, for example, imported meats. For example, of imported meats. Were maintaining the eu standards , which is massively standards, which is massively over , about foodstuffs over regulated, about foodstuffs coming into the uk. Theres no phytosanitary reason why we cant have that. Weve got to be pragmatic about it. Were not saying to put people at risk , saying to put people at risk, but what we are saying is where we can open up our economy, where we can make things cheaper for consumers by having better imports, do that. Lets imports, lets do that. Lets lets use the market to make our economy more creative, more entrepreneurs and reduce our costs. But do that gradually because you then scrutinise each particular regulation on thats fine, but lets do it. But im saying that im saying the principle is the key thing. Liams principle is youre on the side of Small Businesses and consumer orders, whereas regulation of big regulation is on the side of big business well business and bureaucracy. Well no, i dont think thats fair. I go my man climbing i go back to my man climbing the again. That would be the ladder again. That would be hed small or she hed like to be a small or she hed like to be a small or she hed to be a Small Business hed like to be a Small Business man or woman. Those are regulations that are important. Im not saying that every regulation got should regulation that weve got should be set stone and always kept. Be set in stone and always kept. You look each one and decide you look at each one and decide what you do them. What you do with them. It happens, i agree well, as it happens, i agree with ladder regulation, with you on ladder regulation, but regulation that but thats one regulation that i think thank to think is important. Thank you to liam after the break, liam and nigel. After the break, to should it stay or should it go after week of rumours of go after a week of rumours of scrapping the northern of scrapping the northern leg of the initiative should prime the initiative, should the Prime MinisterParty Minister use his Party Conference speech to announce that he project will that the price he project will be or should he keep be cancelled or should he keep going level up at least part going to level up at least part of the country thats going to have on it . Have the train running on it . Plus, case the empire plus, is it a case of the empire striking back radio. Welcome back. Our man , jacob welcome back. Our man, Jacob Rees Mogg. And youve been getting in touch with your thoughts , as peter dear mr thoughts, as peter says, dear mr rees mogg , show me law that rees mogg, show me the law that tax is legal. Remembering that the , trumps the magna carta, trumps legislation now there is a law. Legislation now there is a law. Of 1292 that gives parliament the right to charge taxation. It the right to charge taxation. It is statute law and magna carta , is statute law and magna carta, interestingly, is also brought into statute law in the 13th century. Pat says. What short century. Pat says. What short term memories people have demand to support industry and individuals was high during the pandemic, as was Public Health spending. This produced massive Government Spending for which we now have to pay and the act of 1290 something was the act on tallage so that , you know, tallage so that, you know, theres been quite an exchange of views over the future of the railways in the past week. Theres a wonderful london swan song on them. Anyway, rumours circulated that the Prime Minister plans to cancel the northern leg of the flagship hs2 rail project introduced by David Cameron and gordon brown. Really though , it may be more of a though, it may be more of a titanic than a flagship nowadays. Today it was briefed to gb news mr sunak may use to gb news that mr sunak may use his Conference Speech his may main Conference Speech on wednesday to announce officially he will axe the officially that he will axe the Birmingham Manchester leg. Birmingham to manchester leg. But subsequently government but subsequently a government source has told news source has told gb news that there no decisions there have been no decisions made. Yesterday gb news Camilla Tominey asked the levelling up secretary, michael gove, whether hs2 should go manchester. Hs2 should go to manchester. Heres what he had to say. Go to manchester. Well, i think we need to make sure that were getting absolute value come you value for money. Come on, you must able to have an opinion must be able to have an opinion on it should on whether it should go to manchester absolutely manchester or not. I absolutely think important thing think the most important thing is making sure that when we level up, we take into account all of the things that we need to do. So weve shifted arts council funding, but should it go development go to manchester and Development Funding . Well, were going to have should it not will . It have to. Should it not will . It should have look at every should have to look at every conceivable pound that we spend on transport in order to make sure that we get value for money. Not an answer to the. And theres rather reminds me of the weebles who wobble but dont fall down in case youve forgotten. Forgotten. Hey, look at me and weeble weebles wobble but they dont fall down. Romper room makes weeble toys. Weeble toys. That was a marvellous example of weebles wobbling, but they dont fall down and whether hs2 does or not, i dont know. But the prospect of losing this new infrastructure has reignited the row over whether it should go ahead or not. Many have welcomed the prospect of abandonment on the prospect of abandonment on the grounds of inefficiency, a lack of affordability , whereas lack of affordability, whereas some mps from all sides some other mps from all sides have expressed anger and frustration at the idea, with many arguing that the initiative is essential for levelling up and for the future prosperity of the north of england. So hs2 should it stay or should it go . Should it stay or should it go . Well, great people well, we asked the great people of Party Conference of the tory Party Conference in manchester and the people have spoken. Hs2 should be scrapped. No why not . Because its going to be a great investment for rail link, the north and the south, and we need to give investment to the north. Theres loads in and we need to give investment to tsouth, h. Theres loads in and we need to give investment to tsouth, so theres loads in and we need to give investment to tsouth, so th needs oads in and we need to give investment to tsouth, so th needs oat be n the south, so it needs to be even. Never even. It should never have started in the place. Started in the first place. Treasury green book its the treasury green book didnt pass. It it was a political decision. Yes why is that . Because i believe that connects city in the north. The north east could much more benefit from the scrapping to here just to i cant possibly answer that question because obviously im not a mancunian. And i think its really up to the people in manchester if they want it and stick up for the people in manchester if they wa then and stick up for the people in manchester if they wa then maybe stick up for the people in manchester if they wa then maybe theyll up for the people in manchester if they wa then maybe theyll getor the people in manchester if they wa then maybe theyll get it. It, then maybe theyll get it. It just might take a it, then maybe theyll get it. Itjust might take a bit it, then maybe theyll get it. It just might take a bit of time. You should. You should. You should. Its because its such an important part to improve our infrastructure, especially in the uk. The uk. Im joined now by frank mckenna, the chief executive of downtown in business, and mr mckenna, thank you for joining me. I mean, this project is me. I mean, this project is massively over budget. The economic return from it is now negative. Isnt it sensible to negative. Isnt it sensible to cut now rather than carry on pounng cut now rather than carry on pouring good money after bad . Pouring good money after bad . Good evening, jacob. Good to join you. I would say no to the final question, but agree and entirely with your premise that the cost of this project have got totally out of control and we should be asking questions as to why that happened. You know, to why that happened. You know, any project that goes 14 years plus before where we start to see any sign of it being delivered in the north is simply unacceptable. It comes back to some of the points that youve been making around business friendly policies and regulation. And if you look at the way in which this project has been basically bogged down with all of that type of regulation, nimbyism , the bureaucracy , the nimbyism, the bureaucracy, the people have had to go through to get plans approved, the fact that weve had to spiral costs out of control in order to, as i say , bow down to nimbyism. Say, bow down to nimbyism. Theyre the sort of things that really have cost this project really have cost this project really very, very dearly. And i would say to you, jacob, that you know, if youre a government thats been in power for 14 years, youve got to take total responsibility for those costs going out of control. And then going out of control. And then you have to ask yourself the question , are we spent now £33 question, are we spent now £33 billion on a line that goes from birmingham to nowhere . Now, birmingham to nowhere . Now, i dont think we can afford to waste that money. And i think what we should be doing is looking to see if we can put off moving fonnard, get those costs under control, bring that £100 billion figure thats been quoted down. But ultimately, final point ill make and ill let you back in. We talk about £100 billion. This will be £100 billion for a scheme that will see us into way into the next century. And you mentioned the century. And you mentioned the magna carta in 1292. Thats the last time we had the magna carta , because. Frank, frank, hold on. You made a very important point. You said spent 33 billion. Said weve spent 33 billion. Therefore should spend the therefore we should spend the next 67 billion. That, to me is the sunk cost fallacy. The 33 million is gone, but we would now spend an extra 67 billion and still not have a good enough railway. Railway. I well, i think we would have a much , much better railway. And a much, much better railway. And again , i would say to you that again, i would say to you that i think we could still start to control costs better moving fonnard with some of the things. Actually, liz truss was saying this afternoon. Cut regulation , this afternoon. Cut regulation, become business friendly, get private sector investors confident again in putting money up for these Infrastructure Projects. You know, and i know projects. You know, and i know that we are absolutely atrocious at delivering big Infrastructure Projects , although not so bad in projects, although not so bad in london. You know, again, i remember the controversy over the elizabeth line. I remember the elizabeth line. I remember the controversy over the channel tunnel. I remember the tunnel. I remember the controversy over the wembley , controversy over the wembley, all one major project that ran over. Oven im going to try and get a word in edgeways, fish lice. But thank you very much. Thats another flanders and swan joke, one of my favourites. But thank you, frank. Still with me gb you, frank. Still with me is gb news political news senior political commentator nelson. Nigel commentator nigel nelson. Nigel the crux of it, to my mind , is the crux of it, to my mind, is just because youve spent 33 billion, you shouldnt go on to spend 67 billion when you know that its too expensive and its not giving you the economic return that you expect. If theres spend theres 67 billion to spend theres 67 billion to spend there are so many better ways to spend it. Well, i mean, this is your sunk fallacy. The sunk cost fallacy. And the question is whether its a fallacy. So what . It depends on really whether there will be really is whether there will be a Public Benefit by completing hs2. I appreciate its gone way over cost and im sure if we would, if we were thinking about building it now , we simply building it now, we simply wouldnt. Thats because the whole nature of work has changed. Theres four day weeks, theres Flexible Working at home. I appreciate both you and michael dont like those michael gove dont like those things, but they actually exist that we can now do zoom calls much more easily. We probably wouldnt need hs2 now, but but we have got as far as we have, i think there would be a benefit to the whole country to have to have a high speed rail going all the north, and south. The way north, north and south. And thats why it should continue. Continue. But wouldnt it be better spent on the roads that economically money spent on roads has a much higher return and here on sunday, and just driving here on sunday, the on a sunday afternoon is the m6 on a sunday afternoon is chock a block. There are so many ways of spending money on infrastructure that would really help the north of england or the north midlands. Dont want to get to zero dont want to get to net zero at the at all, do you . I mean, the whole point is that whole the whole point is that were not spending money on roads. Is, i want roads. The idea is, no, i want an economy and were an efficient economy and were not to get to net zero on not going to get to net zero on our own. Our own. Our own. Chinese are pumping out the chinese are pumping out all emissions every all of our emissions plus every yean all of our emissions plus every year. Indeed. All of our emissions plus every yeaand indeed. All of our emissions plus every yeaand smalli. Change in and a small a small change in china goes much further than a big change here. But if we want the leadership that we the moral leadership that we purport for net zero, purport to want for net zero, therefore got to do our therefore weve got to do our bit as well. But actually, have but actually, if we have all the cars that want the electric cars that you want , roads that , then having wide roads that can take lots of cars and have no congestion is a thoroughly good thing. Yes. Which then keep in which case then lets keep to of getting rid of to the target of getting rid of petrol and diesel. But what do you think . Widen but lets widen the roads because argue. Then but lets widen the roads beccane argue. Then but lets widen the roads beccan argue argue. Then but lets widen the roads beccan argue about argue. Then but lets widen the roads beccan argue about thergue. Then but lets widen the roads beccan argue about the target hen we can argue about the target separately. But but you definitely to widen roads definitely want to widen roads and life easier for and make life easier for the motorists obsessing by motorists and stop obsessing by the century romantic ism of the 19th century romantic ism of the 19th century romantic ism of the railways. Well but the whole thing is that if youre looking at public transport, our choices are railways and buses. You fly everywhere. Unless you fly everywhere. Flying is not a very good idea that obviously rail, rail certainly is. The is, is the most environmentally best way of actually doing it. 87 of journeys are taken by road. Road. Well, but thats what we have to change. Were not going to change it. Were not going to change it. If you have a have a decent high rail system, it might high speed rail system, it might actually youre because im so glad youre on because this you think you this is socialism. You think you should tell people how to lead their lives them on should tell people how to lead theitrains, them on should tell people how to lead theitrains, whereas them on should tell people how to lead theitrains, whereas i them on should tell people how to lead theitrains, whereas i think on should tell people how to lead theitrains, whereas i think you n the trains, whereas i think you want the want to get in your car. The government must facilitate you getting well in getting in your car. Well in which case were back. Which case then were back. Back then to not were back then to not reaching reaching net zero by 2050. What necessarily if you get all your electric cars , get all your electric cars, whats your train . Well, in which case then dont change the 2030 target. Thatll take time and we might get Hydrogen Cars anyway. I hydrogen is potentially i think hydrogen is potentially very i think hydrogen is potentially veereah, probably not for not yeah, probably not for not for cars. But the for cars. No, but the infrastructure must in place. Infrastructure must be in place. You place you you must have a place where you can charge up your car. Can actually charge up your car. I round my area. I looked i cant round my area. I looked at an electric car. I cant use one. Those things that need one. Those are things that need to be dealt with. One. Those are things that need to ibutealt with. One. Those are things that need to ibut doesnt]. One. Those are things that need to ibut doesnt it under all but doesnt it under all circum more circum stances make it more sense spend money on sense to spend money on motonnays and cars . Because if you have your way and net zero is the thing , you can spend it is the thing, you can spend it on charging points , you can on charging points, you can spend subsidies for spend it on subsidies for electric cars, all these sorts of i have way, im of things. If i have my way, im much less worried about that. But people to but i still want people to be able their cars on roads able to use their cars on roads that your is your argument is your is your argument there, what do is your is your argument th the what do is your is your argument th the money what do is your is your argument th the money you what do is your is your argument th the money you save do is your is your argument th the money you save hs2 . Is the money you save from hs2 . We into electric cars . We put into electric cars . Im saying is that no, what im saying is that we waste an enormous amount of money railways because we money on railways because we have 19th century have a romantic 19th century view of railways and we need view of the railways and we need to that money on motoring. To spend that money on motoring. And all, i would widen and first of all, i would widen roads and get rid of pinch points because the points because that has the greatest bang for your greatest economic bang for your buck or bang for your pound. Sterling commuter, not sterling as a commuter, im not very about the very nostalgic about the railways, i do like the idea railways, but i do like the idea of having having a high speed rail that connects the connects well, pretty much the entire country. And weve been vacillating for too long about this. I know about about the cost going up. We did the same thing with our super carriers that tony blair brought in. David cameron wanted to cancel them, found he couldnt. But i rather hope couldnt. But i rather hope well find ourselves in the same situation with hs2. Well thank you much, nigel. You very much, nigel. Up , ill be you very much, nigel. Up, ill be asking coming up, ill be asking why the selling out to the government is selling out to china the indian ocean while china in the indian ocean while defending falklands the defending the falklands in the south theres help for households. Are you over state pension age . If your weekly income is below £201. 05, or £306. 85 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. Its worth, on average, £3,500 a year, and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus cost of living payments. Welcome back. After the last welcome back. After the last segment, you may think i identify as mr toad, but in fact, i continue to identify as Jacob Rees Mogg. And youve been getting in touch your mail. Jacob rees mogg. And youve been getting richardi your mail. Jacob rees mogg. And youve been getting richardi chagos mail. Jacob rees mogg. And youve been getting richardi chagos island. Mmogs richard on chagos island. We cannot allow this. The next target will be the isle of wight. And alan, if the french can build high Speed Railways for one cost of uk one tenth the cost of uk builders , why not pay to builders, why not pay them to builders, why not pay them to build hs2 . Well, thats a treble build hs2 . Well, thats a treble y de mon ami. Earlier this year , the argentinian government in a fit of the vapours, decided to withdraw unilaterally from a Cooperation Agreement with the uk and then called for talks over the falklands. The very same Falkland Islands that already had a vote, a referendum on its status as a british overseas territory in 2013. The result was 1513 voted to stay part of the uk in an amazing, if possibly rather brave total of three people voted to leave. Three people voted to leave. Youd think the matter was settled, but late last night the foreign secretary announced his intention falklands intention to visit the falklands intention to visit the falklands in an act of solidarity. However another british overseas territory is under attack. And whilst the falkland move is encouraging from the foreign secretary , it seems that uk secretary, it seems that the uk is on the precipice of handing over the British Indian ocean territory to mauritius, a close ally of communist china, owing to a contentious un Court Judgement that we ought to have ignored. So with me now to discuss this is the director of the Margaret Thatcher centre for freedom at the heritage foundation. Our gardener and gb news political news senior political commentator nigel nelson , and commentator nigel nelson, and nigel Margaret Thatcher would have been appalled, wouldnt she, at this surrender of sovereignty by quisling sovereignty by the quisling Foreign Office . Would have been appalled. This is absolutely outrageous. Bons this is absolutely outrageous. Boris johnson is 100 right to condemn this. This is a condemn this. This is a spineless and cowardly move. It spineless and cowardly move. It is not in the British National interest. It fundamentally undermines , i think, british undermines, i think, british security, but also the us uk special relationship. After all, were talking here about the Diego Garcia Military base, which is leased to the United States and will be in the hands of mauritius, a close ally of china. So this decision makes china. So this decision makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Absolutely no sense whatsoever. And it needs to be reversed at and the British National interest has to be put to the to the front. British security has to be at the very forefront here. Its a complete abrogation of security in the interests of a relatively obscure court on a not very strong case. Exactly. And i do not know why the British Government is going along with this ridiculous ruling from this International Court , a british sovereignty and court, a british sovereignty and self determined nation matters and the uk should not be subject to the ruling of foreign courts i nigel its a bit ridiculous, isnt it . The foreign secretary goes to off the falklands, which isnt really at any risk whilst handing over the Chagos Islands. Its all smoke and mirrors. Well, i mean what is that is related a bit to the other that we all believe in the falklands islanders having the right to self determine nation. They want to remain british. Therefore were happy to keep them british and we fought a war to ensure that they carried on being british. What we did in the chagos island is islands is remove the population against their will. They had no Self Determination about that. They had no choice in the matter. How would we have felt if wed shifted a couple of thousand people from cheshire . The key people from cheshire . The key because we to build because we wanted to build a base there . The key element of the ruling is with is that we did a deal with mauritius mauritius was mauritius where mauritius was still court has still a colony and the court has said that a deal done with the colony which colony is invalid, which means our agreement with our Withdrawal Agreement with the eu is invalid because we were facto when were de facto a colony when we signed agreement. So its signed that agreement. So its pretty its not really we pretty dodgy. Its not really we werent a colony of the eu, we werent a colony of the eu, we were under their law. This but in this in this particular it is the un, particular case, it is the un, International Court justice. International court of justice. Its an advisory, an advisory court. It is not. It is not. No, i appreciate its an advisory. But the idea i mean, now is talking about lets leave this one along with all the talk about leaving the European Court of human rights, the migration, the Refugee Convention can can we actually join the rest of the world . Well, no. Lets join the United States, which has the sense not to take any notice of these pretend courts. Well, but the whole thing is were that every were always arguing that every time a court, an International Court goes against us, we should either it or leave their either ignore it or leave their jurisdiction. I dont think theyre proper courts. We dont follow the courts. Well we dont follow the jurisprudence uk courts. Jurisprudence of the uk courts. They dont have the common law. They are very political, particularly in the un. So you wouldnt like. So again , youd say same thing. Again, youd say the same thing. Up to the never have signed up to the international i International Criminal court. I think mistake. Think there was a great mistake. Okay youd say same think there was a great mistake. Okay aboutd say same think there was a great mistake. Okay about the say same think there was a great mistake. Okay about the european same think there was a great mistake. Okay about the European Court think there was a great mistake. Okhumanit the European Court think there was a great mistake. Okhuman rights. Uropean court of human rights. I would. I think the oh, yes, i would. I think the time out. Time has come to pull out. Right. So when it comes down to International Judicial frameworks, i think our frameworks, i would i think our protection of rights is parliament, right. And the british people, i dont think it is unaccountable courts which operate very courts which operate for very political reasons, but we belong to the rest of the world. Youre absolutely yes, and youre absolutely right , jacob. Britain should not right, jacob. Britain should not be subject to the rulings of foreign supranational courts. I mean, this is this is outrageous. Its an affront. Outrageous. Its an affront. What about its about nato. And what about its about nato. And nato is when we talk about sovereign sovereignty, theyre not a supraNational Entity. But but but if youre talking about sovereign nation states working together. If youre talking together. But if youre talking about security, about sovereignty and therefore pulling of international pulling out of International Courts because of sovereignty , courts because of sovereignty, we have the same situation with nato. Nato. So we entirely different. We are perfectly happy, happy to over our sovereignty to nato. We havent had a defence of sovereignty all nato. Sovereignty at all to nato. No, no , we. But if an if an attack if an attack on one member is an attack on one member is an attack on one member is an attack on all we have no choice about going to war. If france. Thats not true. It is a request for help. It is not a declaration of war. Yeah. Article 5 is misunderstood. It is not an automatic thing. Nato is not a sufferance National Entity at all. Its a its an alliance of nations working together in order to advance the security of the west. And thats why its so effective. So if the russians, the russians actually rolled over the into poland then the border into poland and then down germany and france, down towards germany and france, we do anything , well, we wouldnt do anything, well, were going to defend our allies, free nations, but its a free choice against barbarism and against evil. We have a choice about not not doing anything. Not doing anything. I would hope that we would support but support poland. I mean, but it is it is a choice. Its not automatic pick. Yeah, its totally different circumstance. The Global Security issue, china is coming up the ranks as a real threat to the uk, the us to the western world, and we are handing it a major security opportunity. Absolutely. I do think this this decision to go along with this decision to go along with this International Court is absolutely insane. And it absolutely insane. And it basically gives a strategic advantage to the chinese. The chinese would dearly love to have possession of diego garcia, a strategic , important military a strategic, important military base. A strategic, important military base. And so this is an act of base. And so this is an act of self sabotage, self harm to go along with this this court decision. It makes no sense whatsoever. Well, thank you very much to nigel and nigel. Thats all from me. Up next, its mark dowland, me. Up next, its mark dowland, mark, youre in paddington. Whats on your menu , your bill whats on your menu, your bill of fare this evening . Well jacob, a busy show tonight in my digest written rishi ive written rishi sunak keynote speech so he doesnt have to my manifesto to the have to my manifesto to put the great back into britain in the clash is britain once again the lazy europe. And nigel lazy man of europe. And as nigel farage a rapturous farage gets a rapturous reception at conference, should the right come together to keep starmer out of number 10 . Plus is axing of hs2 a betrayal is the axing of hs2 a betrayal of the north . Lots to get through tonight. Were live from nine. Get through tonight. Oh, well, that sounds extremely interesting. And definitely we should bring the right. I look fonnard right together. I look fonnard to ill back to that program. Ill be back tomorrow at 8 00. Im Jacob Rees Mogg. This has been state of nation, youll be of the nation, and youll be amazed manchester amazed to know in manchester i brought with me, brought a raincoat with me, which would think from which you would think from somerset unnecessary somerset is an unnecessary accoutrement. But it does accoutrement. But it does occasionally rain even in sunny somerset, where the weather tomorrow be glorious. Tomorrow will be glorious. Not so about manchester. The evening. Im alex deakin. This is your latest weather update from the met office for gb news is bright and breezy. Sums up tomorrow a bit of a grey start in the south and it will be some showers, particularly across north particularly across the north and overnight some and the west. Overnight some pretty moving in. Pretty heavy rain moving in. A very soggy one there right very soggy one out there right now. Area of low now. Thanks to this area of low pressure. Some intense downpours, even the odd rumble of over the of thunder likely over the midlands and eastern parts of england over the next hours england over the next few hours could indeed for could be very wet indeed for a time parts of norfolk time across parts of norfolk especially. But that all tends to scoot away through the early hours. Places will become hours. Many places will become dry, certainly across scotland and Northern Ireland. Some clear spells, a little chilly here, down figures, but down to single figures, but staying quite mild the staying quite mild across the south. Temperatures may stay in the teens in the capital, but quite start to tuesday. Quite a grey start to tuesday. Still some outbreaks of rain over the east midlands, east anglia the south east anglia and the south east potentially still around for the anglia and the south east pote|hourv still around for the anglia and the south east pote|hour , still around for the anglia and the south east pote|hour , gradually|d for the anglia and the south east pote|hour , gradually pulling e rush hour, gradually pulling away the morning. Then away through the morning. Then brighter skies, showers for western scotland, parts of northern england, a few for wales and Northern Ireland too. But of the south and east but much of the south and east having a largely dry afternoon, a temperatures a fresher feel. Temperatures mostly in the teens at best. Mostly in the mid teens at best. And similarly on wednesday, the winds a little lighter. On winds a little lighter. On wednesday, much of central and Eastern England looking dry and bnght Eastern England looking dry and bright , but Eastern England looking dry and bright, but more wet Eastern England looking dry and bright , but more wet weather bright, but more wet weather coming northern scotland. Coming into northern scotland. And further along the and then further south along the west coast, that rain could be quite could cause quite heavy and could cause a little disruption into little disruption coming into northern on. To Northern Ireland later on. To further south, places dry further south, most places dry and bright, just the odd shower and bright, just the odd shower and mostly its 9 00 on television, on radio and online in the United Kingdom and across the world. This is mark dolan tonight. Coming up, in my big opinion , coming up, in my big opinion, ive written rishi sunak keynote speech for conference. So he doesnt have too my manifesto to put the great back into britain. Yes, folks, ill get reaction to my manifesto. Thats right. Ive written sunak speech. You wont want to miss it. But what do my panel think tonight . Do my panel think tonight . Carole malone, Matthew Lawson and belinda de lucy. Carole malone, Matthew Lawson and belinda de lucy. Then, as and belinda de lucy. Then, as jeremy hunt declares war on the workshy , has britain become the workshy, has britain become the lazy man of europe again . Well debate that in the clash with Neil Hamilton and anna may mangan. Plus, as nigel farage mangan. Plus, as nigel farage appears at the tory Party Conference to a rapturous reception , then is it time for reception, then is it time for the right to come together to keep keir starmer out of number 10 . Well, ill be asking the leader of reform uk very much a kingmaker, potentially at the next election. Richard tice also, after being cancelled by students, top professor Eric Kaufmann has launched a University Course to combat woke ideology. He tells us more live in the studio shortly. Well in the studio shortly. Well also bring you a first look at tomorrows newspaper, front pages. And ill be sitting down with fleet street icon Kelvin Mackenzie sparks will fly a busy two hours to come. Big opinion , two hours to come. Big opinion, big debate and a touch of entertainment along the way. You are watching gb news, britains news channel my big opinion is