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Prepare for the trial. Oh my goodness all the networks wow then, why a federal judge suggested elon musk was protecting donald trump from the production of his twitter plus, real evidence that many criminal charges across four indictments are having an effect on trump voters. And, one year after it was signed, the simple math and wild success of the Inflation Reduction Act, when all in starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Donald trump and his 18 codefendants in that rico indictment must turn themselves in at the Fulton County jail in atlanta, georgia, within nine days. There they will be booked, processed, and mugshots taken ahead of the arraignments, which District Attorney fani willis wants to take place the first week of september. Today willis also proposed a trial date for this case in the efforts to overturn the 2020 election in georgia and elsewhere. She requested it begin on March 4th Of Next year. That is the day before super tuesday. Now of course there is one name that stands out above all the others in this sweeping trump, its listed first, donald trump, but the second most wellknown name here is of course Rudolph William Louis giuliani. Weve been expecting this for quite some time. Weve been expecting to see Rudy Giulianis name on this indictment ever since prosecutors in williss office informed giuliani he was a target of the investigation day about a year ago. But it is still a remarkable fall from grace for a man who was once a pretty widely renowned public figure. Giuliani rose to National Prominence as the Star United States attorney for the Southern District of new york, a gop held from 1883 to 1989. There he oversaw the prosecutions of members of the mob, corrupt government officials, earned a tough on crime reputation, which are used to launchs political career. After giuliani became mayor of new york in 1983, he has totally cultivated the image as the man singlehandedly responsible, just him, for cleaning up the city and bringing Law And Order. Then in the wake of september 11th, he was americas mayor. Rudy was a front runner for the republican president ial nomination in 2008, though that didnt go that well. And now here, in 2023, at 79 years old, Rudy Giuliani has been indicted for his role and what prosecutors call a criminal enterprise. He is an alleged racketeer, the onetime future president to disgraced laughing stock. In recent years, he has been best known for a series of hat comical, have villainous escapades, like presenting ludicrous claims of voter fraud in front of the four seasons total landscaping. And another Press Conference a few weeks later with hair dye trickling down his Sweat Streaked face. His awful and often unreadable conversations with a subordinate are all over the internet in a really unsettling Sexual Harassment lawsuit. Hes even a punchline in a borat movie in the final chapter of his life, Rudy Giuliani is the object of ridicule and scorn. He is reputationally and financially near bankruptcy. He is looking at the possibility of living out the rest of his days on this earth in prison. How did it happen . How did the once clean as a whistle Crime Fighter, the Law And Order man, americas mayor who led us through such dark moments, how did he end up like this . What happened to rudy . You hear that a lot. I will submit if we take a close all look there is a case to be made, rudy has been this version of rudy the whole time, or least had it in him. In fact, rudy himself made a revealing statement to that effect last night when he emerged from his shame bunker to address the indictment. This is a ridiculous application of the Racketeering Statute, and theres probably no one knows it better than i do. Probably some that know it as well. I was the first one to use it in white collar cases. But in major cases like the boesky case, the milken case, this is not meant for election disputes. This is ridiculous, what shes doing. Rudy is correct. He really did pioneer the use of racketeering laws, often shorthanded as rico, to go after white collar criminals. It was an innovation of his, like michael milken, as he mentioned. He brought rico charges against the mob, the five families in new york, helping to bring down organized crime in new york. According to new reporting for the messenger, wiseguys are rejoicing in the wake of giulianis own rico indictment. A Veteran Mob Lawyer says his clients are, quote, effing thrilled. Giuliani also used the rico laws to go after corruption in politics. One of the ways he kickstarted his own electoral career in the city of new york was turning his office, the u. S. Attorneys office, attention to the Democratic Political machine of the city, which he was, of course, going to run against, in the race for mayor. In 1986, he took down Stanley Friedman On Racketeering charges. That was a democrat from the bronx, one of new yorks most powerful political figures, as the New York Times painted at the time. By his own admission, rudy used rico law against his political enemies, including the man whose job he wanted. , democratic mayor ed conche. The rico statute, i was the first one to use the Racketeering Statute for a public corruption. I did it against most of ed kochs administration. [laughter] well, ed wasnt paying attention, while they were stealing millions. Think about this. The u. S. Attorney that wants Political Office in the city prosecuting the opposing party, using the power to do that. You might uncharitably call that weaponizing the Justice Department for partisan political ads. Giuliani lost his first race but he succeeded the second time around, after embracing some of the ugliest most demagogic racist politics that trump would later mine to great effect. In September 1992 he infamously appeared at a police rally that turned into an allout riot, and he refused to ever decry or denounce it. As mayor, giuliani oversaw an incredible increase in surveillance and policing of black and brown new yorkers, in one notorious incident he demonized an unarmed black man who was shot and killed by the police. Clearly even his recent turn as a public face of, frankly, racist accusations of voter fraud is not really new. Take earlier in the day, of ruby freeman and Shaye Freeman moss and one of the gentlemen quite obvious obviously surreptitiously passing around usb ports as if they were vials of her went or cocaine. Its obviously to anyone who is a criminal investigator a prosecutor, theyre engaged in surreptitious illegal activity. Again, that day. That was false. Ruby freeman and shaye moss actually sued Rudy Giuliani for defamation. But that kind of rhetoric, talking about these two black women as being drug dealers, stealing an election, that goes way back to the 1989 race for mayor. The 1989 race for mayor, which giuliani lost to the first black man elected as mayor in new york, David Dinkins. As he told journalist Jack New Field in an interview he quotes, in his book, the full rudy, this is 21 years ago, and im quoting him here, they stole that election from, they stool that votes in the black parts of brooklyn and washington heights, illegal dominican immigrants were allowed to vote in washington heights. That sounds familiar, doesnt it . Has a certain ring to it. Let me tell you, as a lifelong new yorker, reporters in new york city and critics will tell you, Rudy Giuliani has always been an absolute machiavellian operator. So yeah, you might say, what happened to rudy . Or you could say, this has always been rudy, all the way to the end. Nick ackerman briefly worked alongside giuliani while serving as an assistant u. S. Attorney for the Southern District of new york. Ackerman was the First Federal prosecutor to use federal rico statute to prosecute a mafia boss. The first used to prosecute his non white collar defendants. This is a adam serwer, is author of the book the cruelty is the point. Let me talk to you, adam, about the continuity question. Its something youve written about and thought about and how you see the trajectory of giulianis career which is culminating in a very serious felony indictment. [silence] if you look at the back of those races in new york city, those races are a kind of blueprint make new york city great again. Theyre very much rooted in the stallion, and a kind of reaction to demographic changes in new york that were upset did by the election of the first black mayor of the city. When you go back and look at the rhetoric in that election, he is comparing David Dinkins to david duke, calling him racist. You can see the influence of giuliani on the Trump Campaign and on trumps style of politics. Its a great point. I think what really happened is not that giuliani changed. The country changed. We changed. We became more perceptive of this kind of manipulation. When we look back at it now, its very obvious. But at the time, that was considered an acceptable form of politics, and people didnt really get angry at it in the same way. Or rather, white people didnt get angry in the same way. Lots of black new yorkers were screaming bloody murder about it. I will say, that police riot that he was present at was extremely controversial at the time. That was a really notable event, and ugly. Ugly in a way that i think was covered as such in the press. Youre right, it had an appeal that carried him over and made him politically successful. Nick, you crossed paths with him in that same new york attorneys office. I dont want to overstate the case, because when you look at tape of the guy in 1990, he in 1989, hes just a better public speaker, a better communicator, a sharper version of himself now. But what do you think of this trajectory . I think he was definitely online to go into politics. He was using the u. S. Attorneys office as a vehicle to get him further into politics. Yes. What i was in the u. S. Attorneys office, every indictment, there would be a simple press release, done on an mimeograph machine, maybe one page statement summarizing the indictment, and i was there for about six months of his tenure as u. S. Attorney. I came back shortly thereafter just to visit the office on other business. And i walked into the main part of the u. S. Attorneys office, and you felt like you were in the west wing of the white house. Every single indictment was a major Press Conference. He hired three people on Government Payroll who did nothing but flack him to the press. He did that through in his entire tenure. This is unheard of prior to rudy doing this. Every case was made a major news story, which is why he was able to build up the reputation that he did. Without that backup, without the three people that he hired, one of whom was actually a press person from the New York Post who had been covering the courthouse for years, he was able actually to get himself right into the politics and press of new york city and make a big name for himself as a Crime Fighter when the actual work was done by the assistants in the office. Its not like he was behind everything. The last conversation i had with him when i was at that office, and i didnt have too many, was basically handing over to him a wiretap i had from an investigation into maddie ian l o, who was the under boss of the genovese family. And those tapes essentially where the basis for bringing charges against the five family bosses, who were members of the look coosa no strict commission in the country. I gave it to rudy. I told him he should do it. And hes been taking credit for that ever since. God bless them. It was something that had to be done. But, yes, it was important. And that was, you know, that rico case, which i believe was a rico case, that was one of his first start earns. Youve also got i mean, the other thing here is, like, you are sort of point, adam, about the sense of, like, whose city is it, right, and whose country is it, which is the sort of through line of that question in the rudy political appeal. You know, here you have i want to just play him, just to remind you of what hes asking people to do, right, aside from defaming, in my humble opinion, sheamus and ruby freeman and others. Here is before the state judiciary subcommittee, this is meant as one of the overt acts in the indictment, basically saying, you dont have to do anything to voters told you, you can choose who you want to be electors. Take a listen. State law doesnt, in any way, prevent you, the legislator, from a mediately taking this over and deciding this. You are the final arbiter of who the electors should be and whether the process is fair or not. And the other way to look at it, its your responsibility if a false and fraudulent count is submitted to the United States government. And its clear that the counts you have right now is false. I mean, theres a pretext there, a false pretext, about a false count. But its as frankly antidemocratic by any public utterance by anyone in this country have ever seen, with the exception of trump. Well, it is an expression of the ethos of trumpism, which is that there are certain people who are the real americans. And those people have a right to win every election, regardless of whether or not their preferred candidate gets the most votes. And so, if by some misfortune they get out voted by the rest of the country, then the State Legislature should step in and essentially, even though hes talked about on rigging the election, what hes demanding is for the election to be rigged in their favor, because they are the only legitimate americans, therefore, their political will is the only legitimate political. And it is an antidemocratic sentiment that is pretending to be a democratic sentiment. Thats right. Finally, nick, i just want you to respond, you wrote a piece in the atlantic journalconstitution that says actually this is a good application the rico statue, something which the federal Virginia Village with. Giuliani was on newsmax to say this is a ridiculous use of it. Why do you think its appropriate here . Well, its appropriate because they basically committed a whole series of crimes, which is the Indictment Shows comes down to seven different criminal schemes, with 18 individuals. Its a good way to put them all together in one count in an indictment and point out the jury how all of these schemes related to each other, how all these different defendants, some of whom may have never even met each other, were all working towards the same goal of trying to keep donald trump in office and basically steal the election from joe biden. Nick ackerman and adam serwer, great to have you both gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you. Coming up, the Special Counsel slips into Donald Trumps dms as a federal judge asks if elon much is trying to cozy up to the former president. But first, with the law closing in, the trump gang scrambles to get out of georgia, next. Get out of georgia, next we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. But then he got us tmobile home internet. I was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. I mightve taken it a step too far. Chainsaw Revs tree crashes chainsaw continues daughter screams lets pretend for a second that you didnt let down your entire family. What would that reality look like . Well i guess i wouldve gotten us xfinity. And wed have a better view. Do you need mulch . Yesterday, just a day after what, we have a ton of mulch. Donald trump and 18 of his alleged coconspirators were charged with racketeering in georgia, one of the defendants, mark meadows, former Chief Of Staff to donald trump, filed to remove his case to federal court. The filing argues the charges in georgia cover conduct by meadows as Chief Of Staff of the president , which is a federal position. We dont know how the court will rule on this request by meadows. But there is wide anticipation that other defendants in georgia, including trump himself, could also seek to move their case to federal court. And that is just one of the many procedural gambits we will likely see as the trump team tries to make sure this case does not get tried before the election. Its a daunting challenge for prosecutors because this is a complicated rico case, 19 defendants, that fani willis says she wants to go to trial in six and a half months, on march 4th. Every one of those 19 defendants will try everything they can to make sure that doesnt happen. Will it work . Sherry boston is a District Attorney in Dekalb County, next to Fulton County. She joins me now. First, i wonder how you see these moves to move things to federal court. As a local prosecutor i think projecting how i would feel, taking something out of my portfolio, i would be a bit miffed. But in the end, there are reasons that those motions can be filed. Do you think there is big stakes in that kind of thing . Well, what i can say is, is that this was not an unexpected notice. I can guarantee you that any prosecutor, especially a prosecutor like d a fani willis, understood that this was absolutely a possibility, given the fact that youre dealing with the indictment of federal officials. And so i am certain that this was anticipated and that they are prepared to make the arguments in federal court, perhaps as to why this should be remanded back to the Superior Court of Fulton County. Yeah, and we should just note, and as our guest said last night, even if the judge and venue changes, its a few blocks away in Downtown Atlanta in Fulton County, it would be the same prosecutors office. It doesnt get taken away from fani williss office, right . No, i mean this in a situation where the u. S. Attorneys office, who normally prosecute cases in federal court, we suddenly have to take over this massive indictment. It would still belong to the Fulton County District Attorney s office. I think the main distinction is going to be the selection of the jurors. In Fulton County Superior Court, youre going to have members empaneled from just a district of Fulton County. That is very different than the Northern District of georgia. Yes, in fact laurence tribe, wrote a piece in the atlantic saying basically heres why this is about idea, arguing against it, one of the points he says the neighboring counties including is likely the goal for someone like trump if he makes a filing this nature, or a meadows. In terms of the possibility, this is been floated and you are someone who is sort of directly impacted by this, of trying to remove the District Attorney fani willis, theres a get legislation passed by the Georgia State senate and house, controlled by republicans, that gives them the power to remove d. A. S. You are one of, i believe, for d. A. S in the state who is suing to block it. How likely do you see that is a move that might happen here . Well, we filed this lawsuit against senate bill 92 because we understood and know that there is absolutely an assault on prosecutors, which is an assault on democracy. Prosecutors have to be able to have both independent investigations and use prosecutorial discretion to make the types of huge decisions that we are making every day. The idea that the State Legislatures can create a commission to remove prosecutors for oftentimes difference of opinions on Prosecution Philosophy or politics runs afoul of democracy and should concern everyone in the country and certainly the voters. They have that power now in terms of the law that there is a lawsuit pending against that. Law has not been used yet. Its sort of a thing that looms overall this. The other thing that looms over all this is of course the Security Situation. We saw the Security Situation around the Fulton County courthouse. Today we have this news, that a woman in album texas is accused of threatening to harm u. S. District judge Tanya Chutkan and representative Sheila Jackson lee. According to the complaint the woman admitted to the Homeland Security investigator, saying hey you stupid slave, followed by a racial epithet, threatening to kill anyone who went after trump. How concerned are you about the invective that trump has directed at a colleague of yours, fani willis, all against people who might be involved in this process . Well, we cannot afford to take any overture of Political Violence likely anymore in 2023. It is a huge concern for judges, for prosecutors, even for witnesses that are called to testify in grand juries were proceedings to give evidence or to tell what they know. We have seen this happen. In particular its even more concerning when we are seeing especially black women being attacked and using race and epithets against them. It is very dangerous and we should all be concerned. Sherry boston, District Attorney in the neighboring Dekalb County in georgia. Thank you for making time for us. I appreciated. Thank you, chris. Still ahead, new polls show that even Republican Voters dont love it when their candidate gets indicted. But first, inside the Special Counsels quest to read Donald Trumps private twitter messages. Next. Detect this living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. Thats why i switched to dovato. Dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. No other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. Detect this most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. Dovato is as effective with just 2. If you have hepatitis b, dont stop dovato without talking to your doctor. Dont take dovato if youre allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. This can cause serious or lifethreatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. Serious or lifethreatening lactic acid buildup and Liver Problems can occur. 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A rare, lifethreatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. Stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and dont take it if youre on dialysis. Taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Jardiance is really swell, the little pill with a big story to tell. Over the last several days, weve learned that there was a long drawn out legal battle in secret between the Special Counsels office and twitter over a warrant for twitter to turn over access to Donald Trumps account, including his direct messages or dms. Today, we got a much fuller picture of that legal battle, and it was ultimately released to the Special Counsel. The two sort of Top Line Takeaways are that trump did have lots of dms, what his lawyers called Confidential Communications, which the Special Counsels office did ultimately get access to. And that elon musks company did basically everything its power to fight on trumps behalf, including resisting prosecutors demands that theyre not tell trump about the Search Warrant. Twitters delay in complying with the warrant led the judge to hold it in contempt and hit it with a 350,000 fine. Lisa reuben is an msnbc legal analyst whos been closely following the story, and she joins me now. We thought something was going behind the curtains, and then we got our first doctors indicating some of the contours of this. And now today, we got a bunch more that really sort of show what went down. What did we get access to today, and what does it show . We got access to a number of transcripts, where the government and twitters outside counsel are squaring off in front of one of maybe the toughest judges in the district of columbias federal court, judge beryl howell, who i should note had infinite familiarity with what the Special Counsels offices have done in the past. Why . Because she was the chief judge of the district, and presided over all grand jury and Communication Disputes during the mueller dispute. And in fact, using that knowledge really interrogate twitters council, saying are you not aware of the fact that the mueller team, for example, got over 230 orders just like this to access Store Communications . Do you think it any less instances, the Special Counsels team went to the white house and said, hey were going to give you a heads up, were looking for Confidential Communications, no, thats not how one. Down so, she was in a particularly good position to really put the screws to council to really comply with their order. You know, i should say, as sort of a general matter, a social Media Company that is going to fight Government Attempts to grab users accounts for data is a good thing, i think. In most instances, you want them to be resistant to that idea. I mean, one of the things that howell points out, if im not mistaken, is that twitter has been handing over stuffed left to right. And in fact, reporting shows, its been handing over stuff left and right to really gnarly authoritarian governments regimes were handing it over smells doom. Howell seems pointing about it, what exactly is your deal here with donald trump . Right, she basically accuses them of trying to compensate for the fact that under prior ownership, donald trump was kicked off of twitter. And elon musk may now want to make nice with donald trump by giving him a heads up about something thats not appropriate to notify him about. But at the end of the day, she succeeds and the government succeeds and getting twitter to comply, not only because she imposes a 350,000 Dollar Sanction on them, but also because the government demonstrates to her is urgency. So, one of the things left off the page to me is tom wyndham, when the prosecutors for the government, saying basically we needed this information 13 days ago. Were running up against an elapsing clock. You can feel the timeliness of what theyre trying to do and the rush in their investigation. Its not to say its overly rushed or, you know, impetuous, but you feel some urgency from the government in saying we need twitter to comply, and we needed them to comply yesterday. I want to read from the Search Warrant for trumps twitter account, and the items that were sought include all direct messages sent, receive, or stored in draft form, all the devices used to log into at real donald trump, location information, ip addresses used into account from october 2020 to january 2021. Tweets created, drafted, favored it, or light, including any deleted. So, are we to believe, and are we to believe that trumps lawyers at one point say this, or maybe twitters lawyers, that there were personal communications, dms, that the Special Counsel did get access to . Yeah, and it comes up in the course of this fight about Executive Privilege. That twitter is, for reasons and beenounce to the govern and beryl howell, are trying to indicate it. And theyre not a government office. And unless theyre essentially saying that he may have Executive Privilege over some of these communications, and howell says to them, what would cause you to believe that . And they say, well, theres some volume of Confidential Communications here. And she says how do you know that the confidential . And thats when they reveal, well, we looked at the dms folder to see if there was anything there. If the folders empty, you can presume theres no Confidential Communications. But in actuality, there is really some volume there. Now, chris, we really dont know, or those dms that trump received . Are those dms that trump sent . To me, those are two very different things. Because given particularly what kind of settings you can put on your account, any old yahoo in the twitter mail to send you a direct message. But if they were ones that were sent, and we also learn about who had access to this account, which devices and ip addresses are involved, we might learn a lot more ultimately about trumps twitter account was used, by whom, and whether it was sort of used in a way that Paul Manafort used his draft email folder, right, as a Staging Ground for what ultimately became his communications. Thats a great, great. Point lisa rubin, as always, on point. Thank you. The republican front runner for the nomination to be president is facing 19 won charges over four indictments, you probably heard a little bit about that. If thats something that gives you pause, you might actually be a republican primary voter. Not the majority of them, but theres a lot of them. David plouffe and jen psaki and some are harboring poll numbers ahead. Er ahead. And forms an antibacterial shield. Try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. One year ago today, the Inflation Reduction Act, the most significant piece of Climate Legislation in u. S. History, was signed into law. Theres a case to be made its one of the most significant and successful pieces of legislation ever passed. I mean, just look at the, name and look at what it did. And august of last year, when Inflation Reduction Act was signed into law, inflation was 8. 3 . One year later, inflation is about 3. 2 . Inflation was reduced. Promises made, promises kept. Now, i can hear you all you Macro Economics both out there yelling at your tvs, the i. R. A. Was a clean infrastructure bill with some Drug Prescription Pricing as well. Dropping inflation had more to do with the easing of supply chain issues with covid and the decline it oil prices, as marcus came back after the invasion of ukraine, and the rate hikes from the fed. Yes, thats all true. The way politics works is the president gets all the blame when the economy is bad, you get to take the credit when the economy is improving. So, the democrats had this kind of the stroke of genius last summer when they were at loggerheads with West Virginia democratic senator joe manchin, the deciding vote, who was wavering on voting for the act, because hes concerned about additional spending and what it would mean for inflation. So, they renamed their Spending Bill the Inflation Reduction Act. At the time, that was seen as a kind of cheeky dig at republicans. But it worked. That decision has borne both substantive and political dividends. Think about it this way. If it were a republican president who signed a bill called the Inflation Reduction Act, and then inflation drop by 5. 1 year, it would be all they ever talked about. So, President Biden, any other democrat in politics, some free advice. I understand that you are kind of reluctant to bring up inflation when it is still a little higher then he would like it to be. But 3. 2 is a lot less than 8. 3 . And everyone knows that. Go out and tell everyone. We passed the Inflation Reduction Act. And over the next year, inflation plummeted. Think about it this way. If you pass the Inflation Reduction Act, and inflation had gone up five points, jakub be cooked. Republicans will talk about nothing else. We passed the Inflation Reduction Act and it plummeted. It even sits on a bumper sticker. Bumper sticker. The New York Times released a poll two weeks ago, when it, is showing President Joe Biden and donald trump tied in hypothetical match, of it spooked a lot of people, myself included. But what i keep coming back to as i consider the politics of a possible trump biden rematch, which is not guaranteed, is dont overthink it. Like, is it good to get indicted multiple times if you are candidate for the office of the presidency . No. Is it good to be facing several trials for those crimes . No. Is donald trump a popular dude . No. And we now have new Associate Press Polling showing just how unpopular the ex president s. As of this week, trump unfavorability is 27 points underwater, 62 of people view him unfavourably. And despite his death grip on the republican primary field, 53 , 53 , say they definitely would not support him in the 2024 election, which doesnt even take into account the 11 who say they probably would not support him. Now, again, none of this serves as any kind of guarantee. If he is a major party nominee, because his republican nominee, hes basically one unforeseen Shocker Catastrophe away from winning. So, it absolutely can happen, and that is way too close for comfort. But he is an extraordinarily weak general election candidate. And that reinforces, no matter who you are, getting indicted on 91 individual charges in four months is not great. Jen psaki served as White House Press secretary under President Biden, shes now the host of inside with jim psaki and msnbc. David plouffe is a rock obamas 2008 president ial arent. He also served as a Senior Adviser in both obama terms. Jen, ill start with, you this polling looks little different in the New York Times polling. And again, all the stuff is kind of speculate, where a year out, et cetera, et cetera. But again, your read of the ap and our c poll in the wake of what appeared to be the final of four indictments, at least for now. Well, i mean, chris, two things that i probably learn from david plouffe, one is a republican primary electorate is not the same as a general election electorate, which is pretty obvious. But were so focused, of course, understandably right now, on the republican primary electorate. Its easy to forget thats not the same as the entire country having the opportunity to vote. And you see that in the poll. The second thing is georgia has long been a swing state, sometimes a state that democrats really wanted, but recently a state that democrats have won. And trump needs georgia. And georgia is going to be a state where its going to be a televised trial. And so, this is, looking at this poll, it feels to me, as you stated, its obvious, indictments, more indictments isnt good for political candidate. But also, there is more people are going to see, its going to be in their face for months, especially during the general election. Yeah , thats a great point but george, a particular because the Georgia Republican establishment has really has no incentive to sort to bout him, particular because they sort of took him on in this last random interns and beat him. Yeah. Theres also the case, david, that jen points out about it being in peoples face. I think a huge amount of this with trumps priced. And most people know who the guy is, one way or another, at this, point and have their feelings about that. So, theres not a lot of flex there. That said, i do think we will underprice, what it will be like to actually have undergoing a trial, to have them in the news for a year, what do you think . I think, and i agree with jen completely, the question is is there a single swing voter in the atlanta suburbs, in the, you know, Rain Counties outside milwaukee, in phoenix, who says, you know what, im not going to vote for donald trump. Thats the issue. And again, it would help woman republicans. First of all, lets remember, this is a guy who ran for president twice as the republican nominee, won once, neither time got 41 vote. So, for him to have any chance of winning in 2024, you know, unless theres third party vote, lets say eight or 10 , hes got to grow. So, these are not the conditions to grow. And even that poll that got everybody worried, lets do some simple math, 43 plus 43 is 86, its not 100, okay. So, if donald trump is the republican nominee, hes going to get 44, 45, maybe 47. But, you know, a lot of my sense of that is that thats baked in. This is a deeply, deeply listened, even without all of these indictments, and this being in peoples faces, this would be political malpractice in my view for republicans to nominate him. Theres plenty of people whod be stronger candidates against joe biden. So, thats where this is. And i agree. The Georgia Point is very. Important its hard to construct a senior word on trump wins the presidency, or any republicans as, well at the 16 electoral votes from georgia. And this isnt to be front and center for weeks, if not longer. Its a great point. And its something theres been significant and bringing about and republican circles. I do think, again, i return to this time and time again. Its a little bit of an obsession of mine. But i dont know if there is this balance of how, like, neurotic democratic, like, political professionals are, versus republicans, or like what the deal is. But like, can you imagine the freak out, jen, if the nominee, go back to 2015, if Hillary Clinton had just been indicted for different juries, everyone would be freaking out, everything would be torn asunder, there would be pushes to push i mean, the degree to which that is not happening over there just continues to be astounding. I know, youre totally right, having worked in Democratic Politics for a long time, democrats like to what the bed and stress out and wring their hands about all sorts of things. Thats not necessarily the worst characteristic, because its important for us to be on edge. Right, its good, its important for people to be on the edge and always think they might lose, because its motivational. But there is such a difference, to your point, chris, between what happens in the democratic and republican elector. I mean, there have been so many interesting polls that tell you a lot. There was a story i read today in the new yorker that had this graph that i keep thinking about about how when voters were told one thing and it was put in the mouth of donald trump, they liked it. When they were told the same thing that said trump opposes, they didnt like it. Meaning his hold as a person over the electorate in the Republican Party is so strong. But to echo david, there are other candidates that would be hard, or that would be stronger in different ways, maybe less tested, maybe they dont have the same hold on the electorate, but stronger in different ways. Yeah, those favorable how much what do you make of the favorable ratings . Because again, theres back and forth about how much they matter. People will vote for people they dont have a feeble impression of, is the thing that happens. Theres some category of voters when theres a forced choice. But again, being 27 points underwater, 62 of the folks saying, like, have an unfavorable view of you, that 62 , thats rough sledding. Well, yeah, chris. And the thing to remember is his Approval Rating in the Republican Party is so strong that basically the vast, vast majority of independents, not just democrats, if you hadnt favorably. So lets remember back in 16, the data suggested that donald trump won the voters who are unfavorable, both towards him and Hillary Clinton. Right. So, a couple things. One, lets say it is trump and biden. Bidens gone much higher. And his arent where you like them to be, but higher favorable ratings, which is a human being, as a person. So, its not gonna be even. But i think at the end of the day, the stronger issue here will be he has to rely on people who voted against him in 2020 to come back, right. Thats the case. Or the turnout thing, which worries me a little bit. Thats probably his safest route. And no one whos seeing all this. You know, its not thin diamonds and what theyre about, its his reaction to them. Like, do people really want to give him four more years . They were already done with a nightmare in 2020. And i think they are now. So, thats what david said, i think jims point is an important one. Generally, the party that wins the presidency is the one whos base voters are closest to the middle electorate. By the way, the Democratic Party from 68 to 92 was the one thats for the way for the middle elector. Right now, theres no question that the Republican Base voter is further away from the middle electorate and democrats are, and that should work in the partys favor. Thats a good shorthand. Jen psaki and david plouffe, thank you both. That is all in on this wednesday night. Now, earlier in the show, we mentioned a big day today. Its been one year since President Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act. It is not the only anniversary that we are marking tonight. President at w bidene signed th Inflation Reduction Act. Alex wagner also turns 1 today. Good evening, alex. I dont know. I really appreciate the sentiment. Thats saying a lot. Thats like the biggest investment in Climate Change the countrys ever made and a Cable News Program on at 9 00 p. M. From tuesday through friday. Ou i will take it. Lets bewi clear, i dont thk youre more important than the Inflation Reduction Act, but i do think youre better, and i am more excited about your anniversary