four-month trial time line. also raising what might happen if any or all of the motions to remove are granted or appeal to the 11th circuit. for the first televised hearing regarding the attempts to overturn the 2020 election, it was fascinating, if a little complicated. we're going to begin with georgia. please don't go anywhere, there is also news out of the special counsel's classified documents case. more on what one of donald trump's lawyers said on tape, warning the former president, what the government would do if he did not comply. let's start, though, in georgia. joining us now is nbc news correspondent garrett haake, and outside the fulton county courthouse for us, nbc legal contributor, katie phang. i was surprised how quickly he denied the motion to sever from kenneth chesebro. >> reporter: we were pleasantly surprised to see how quickly judge mcafee ruled. ruling from the bench not that often but especially in a case like this. he's under a quick time line. october 23rd, a little bit over five weeks away and as the judge indicated in court today there's a lot of stuff that has to get done. pretrial motions, et cetera, not to mention the fact that he's awaiting a ruling from federal judge steve jones in terms of whether or not the removal defendants specifically mark meadows is going to actually go to federal court, and that dove tails with one of the biggest questions that was asked of all counsel, specifically, the state indicating we're ready to go to trial with all 19 defendants, your honor, if you're inclined to sever just chesebro and powell, it's the same amount of time, four months. it's the same number of witnesses, 150. why? because they said quote, evidence against one is evidence against all. the judge retorted, what about jury selection, what about pretrial motions, what about the 19 defense counsels participating in the due process for each of their individual clients. as of right now as we stand outside the fulton county courthouse, kenneth chesebro, despite his efforts to separate from sidney powell will be tried on october 23rd. the remaining question is will judge mcafee order the remaining 17 defendants to be tried with those two. >> how does that work, katie? how can he say to the other 17 defendants that they don't want a speedy trial, that they have to have a trial on october 23rd. can you grant two defendants a right to a speedy trial, and deny the request from everyone else. i heard one of the defense attorneys there bring that up today. >> reporter: and so i think if we have to read tea leaves, gt indication from the court, the logistical questions, you're not going to see all 19 of the defendants tried together. why? because they each individually have due process rights to your point, katie. you're going to see an october 23rd trial of chesebro and powell. the real issue is how do you manage the remaining 17. will the remaining 17 be left to their own devices. will some of them go to federal court? double jeopardy was asked. it's the first time that was raised at this point by any of the judges and lawyers in this case. double jeopardy attaching when a jury panel has sworn. the judge is saying how do you proceed in federal court and state court at the same time. there's really the risk of how do you logistically fit 19 defendants with 19 defense counsel plus some, as well as all of the state's team, how do you do this many witnesses, it's a logistical nightmare. >> they brought up the ysl case, in month seven of jury selection, a straight rico charge, a straight conspiracy case, implying it was less complicated than this one. garrett, the reaction from the defense team for chesebro, and sidney powell, what was it? >> i mean, it's interesting here. you heard from chesebro's attorney here, who used language like donald trump used, weaponization of rico statutes, arguing they have taken, prosecutors have, normal political conduct if the case of mr. chesebro here, basically writing memos and suggesting legal strategy and criminalizing it because of the actions of others unrelated to chesebro himself had done. now, you heard the echoes of the trumpian idea of weaponization from someone who is trying to separate himself from donald trump and the conduct of those others. so i think, you know, whether or not chesebro gets lumped in with the other 17 will be notable. as you and katie were pointing out, the judge did not seem inclined to push ahead with 19. the same argument of what donald trump is making in this case, and the federal election interference case, this is part of a normal process, and you can't criminalize it by lumping it together with other activities, whether that will be persuasive to a judge or jury is not for me to say. you're seeing the outline of the defense, in the same way you're seeing the prosecutors outline, the way they want to move forward and the time line they want to do it. >> you're well plugged in to the trump team. do you have a sense of whether they will see a trial go forward with chesebro, and sidney powell first to get an idea of the case the state has, the d.a.'s office made the argument that the case is going to be the same for everybody. all of the evidence is the same for everybody. 150 witnesses, four-month trial, we're going to have 19 four-month trials, they said, or two. does donald trump's team welcome one happening before theirs? >>. >> oh, i think they would, and not just for the four months but the additional months of jury selection that might take place here. that alone could push this process for donald trump and whoever's left of the 17 to go on trial after the 2024 election, which any number of other factors might be different. there's both the timing element here where basically any delay is a good day, and if you have the trump team on really all of these cases, and the opportunity to see the prosecution's cards. right now, they're operating based on discovery. they're operating base ond it -- based on what's in the indictment, and how they can craft their arguments and see what would be persuasive to a jury in fulton county would be useful to the trump defense team, not just in fulton county but also potentially in the federal election interference case, which deals with a lot of the same facts. >> garrett, when are we going to hear from donald trump's lawyers, the next scheduled date they've got to appear before this judge. >> i don't know that they have a scheduled appearance date. this is something where donald trump has been his own attorney's spokesperson as much as anything else. i have been hitting refresh on truth social, all afternoon long, waiting to see if he's going to weigh in on this. he'd be happy to take the stand in his own defense in these cases plural, against him. it relates to the argument i was pointing out earlier here, to the degree that they could make this a political case, not a legal case, they see that as a net positive for them. whether it's persuasive with the jury, that's for someone else to answer. that's trump and hand picked attorneys have picked these cases. >> he has said he would take the stand in his own defense. he hasn't done so. next tuesday is the next deadline i heard from this judge. what does he want to see on tuesday? >> reporter: he wants to receive briefing from both sides concerning whether or not this should be a 19 defendant trial or just the two defendants, chesebro and powell proceeding to trial on october 23rd. i would note as well, katie, he said to the lawyers for the defense there are some pending motions by kenneth chesebro, disclosure of grand jury information. he said if there's other lawyers for other defendants, they were there in court. some of the other defendants in this case had representation sitting in the peanut gallery with the rest of us in the media watching very carefully. today you saw in court the first very public beginning of what we will anticipate to see, a divide in terms of defenses. though they were trying to play nice together in the sand box, lawyers for kenneth chesebro, and lawyer for sidney powell made it clear they were acting separate and apart from each other, emphasizing they had no contact, no communication, no coordination, and i think you're going to be seeing that more pronounced as time goes by and the heat turns up. discovery is provided by the state in this case, and the upcoming week to ten days, we'll see the power and magnitude of what the state has because that's not all for public consumption. >> katie phang, garrett haake, thank you very much for starting us off. joining us now is msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, former u.s. attorney chuck rosenberg joins us as well. lisa, i noticed when chesebro's lawyers were talking about the tainting of their client by showing the evidence for sidney powell, the pour over effect. they said we have boring paperwork allegations, there's more provocative stuff on sidney powell's side, and they were arguing it's not fair for our clients to be lumped in with that because he might seem guilty in association. >> the judge was essentially saying, look, your clients don't have antagonistic defenses, and chuck can speak to this with greater knowledge than i can. they're not necessarily pointing their finger at each other. your concern about the spillover effect doesn't mean as much, particularly where as here you're being charged with a rico conspiracy. the evidence against one is admissible in general against all. >> they were arguing that this rico allegation, this charge is way too broad and the d.a. is not using it properly. do they have a case there? >> i don't think they do, particularly given the way that rico has been used in fulton county georgia. you made reference to the ysl case which is still going on. just yesterday a new rico case was charged against 61 defendants in fulton county. rico is used so broadly and so many circumstances that wasn't initially expected to apply, particularly in georgia that, i'm not sure that's going to carry a lot of traction with judge scott mcafee who made an impressive debut in this case. >> i thought his questions were really interesting and the problems he raised, potential problems out there were something to chew over. chuck rosenberg, what do you think of the argument that rico is being used too broadly here? >> keep in mind in georgia, katie, it's a broad statute. the georgia version of rico is broader than the federal counter part. broader than most of the other rico state counter parts in the three dozen or states that have an analogous rico statute. it is being used broadly. this points out an interesting contrast, if you look at the federal indictment in the district of columbia by the jack smith team, one defendant, mr. trump alone, four charges. that's it. a simple, and by simple, i mean streamlined case, laser focused on one defendant. the danger in a broad, sprawling sweeping indictment is exactly what we're seeing now, and exactly what we're talking about now, trying to sort of wrangle 19 people into court in trials that could take four months or i bet significantly longer each. and so, you know, you reap what you sow, katy, they're going to have to deal with the consequences of that. >> the judge said getting 19 lawyers, imagine the jury selection for that. that would probably tack on quite a bit of time. he mentioned that 19 lawyers raising objectionings. 19 lawyers interjecting, 19 lawyers adding for side bars, it would add so much more time than the defense is anticipating, that four months did not seem likely at all. the defense, i'm sorry, the prosecution argued, hey, listen, yes it's going to tack on time in some places but we're probably going to be able to save time in others. you're only going to have one cross-examination, you're not going to have 19 separate cross-examinations of 19 cases of 150 witnesses. >> that's fair. it's going to take a long time. i'm biassed here, i come from a district that was known colloquially as the rocket docket, the eastern district of virginia, the motion that it would take seven months to pick a jury seems crazy. i remember picking jurs in relatively simple cases, and i'm not making this up, in 15 minutes. the whole thing seems skewed to me. will it take a long time, you bet it will. i think the state and the courts are better off if you try 19 people once, even though that's incredibly cumbersome, than one person in each of 19 different trials. i don't know exactly how it's going to be sliced up at the end. but it seems to take a very long time to do relatively simple things in georgia, and that doesn't bode well for the trial system there. >> does it look like a good idea or not such a good idea to charge 19 defendants here, chuck? >> i never thought it was a good idea. i thought what jack smith did in federal court in d.c. made sense. i was trained as a prosecutor to keep it simple, focus on the most important things in your case, that means the most important defendants, charges, things that can be brought and presented to a jury in a cogent, linear way. 19 defendants, it may well be justified by the law and the facts, but there's no way, katy that you could argue this is streamlined or linear, even. >> i stand corrected, you never thought it was a good idea. i want to get to removal and this idea of double jeopardy tat judge raised. i have a new motion from mark meadows, we're taking a quick break. do not go anywhere. chuck and lisa are staying with us. what we're learning from the notes of one of donald trump's lawyers in the classified documents case recorded on audio tape. also, what's kevin mccarthy's strategy to avoid a government shutdown at the end of the month, do not go anywhere. we're back in 60 seconds. o anywhere we're back in 60 seconds tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ back with us as promised, msnbc legal analyst, lisa rubin, and former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, chuck rosenberg and an msnbc contributor. before we start, i want to play a little bit of sound from what we just heard from that hearing. we're going to get it ready. actually, we're going to put pause on that for a second because they're loading up those tapes. we still got to load up tapes here, believe it or not. let's talk about double jeopardy, what the judge warned. he was saying to the prosecution, the d.a.'s office, have you considered what might happen if one of these cases gets removed to federal court or if it does not get removed to federal court, if one of these defendants appeals and has to go to the 11th circuit, and that delay, maybe the 11th circuit, have you considered how far along we might be, might have to wait for the jury to deliberate, as this decision is made, and then have you consider whether it will be valid because of double jeopardy. i thought that was an interesting point i hadn't heard raised, chuck. can you explain it? >> not simply. i think i can explain it. so the state and the federal system are separate sovereigns and so typically, you don't have a double jeopardy concern if the state charges a crime and the feds charge a similar crime. double jeopardy typically attaches if you try to charge the same crime, let's say the three of us, katy, you, me and lisa rob a bank in fulton county, georgia, we could be charged in state court and federal court, but we couldn't be charged in twice in federal court or charged twice in state court. it's a little unclear to me what the judge was getting at, double jeopardy at least in my view has sort of a more restrictive meaning. i would be delighted to hear what lisa has to say, i think she's a lot smarter than me on stuff like this. >> i agree she's a lot smarter than me as well. lisa. >> way to down play the expectations, i think where scott mcafee was going with this is there is a prohibition against state and federal charges where there is such significant overlap between the two that there is no daylight between them. we saw that, for example, when new york state tried to charge paul manafort, for example, his lawyer, i should add was one todd blanche who got him out of those charges. i think what his concern was, let's say we get far down the road here, and there's either a conviction or acquittal, and then the case has to be removed to federal court. does the court already find that people have been tried already on the same charges, because irrespective of what the venue is, they would have to be tried essentially a second time. >> wasn't there a venue issue in front of the supreme court, does it apply here? >> there was a venue issue in front of the supreme court. it is about double jeopardy. >> this is why i need a law degree. >> this is why i apparently need one too. >> all right. let's talk about mark meadows because he's also, as this was happening filed a motion to sever his case from the rest of the cases. this is just as judge mcafee was denying the motion from chesebro to sever from sidney powell. >> this is mark meadows saying i don't want to go to trial on october 23rd because that's still an open issue with respect to the other 17. i want to make it unambiguously clear that i do not want a speedy trial. i think judge mcafee is indicating both because of the removal issues but also because of the administrative infeasibility of getting 19 people to trial in october that he's not inclined to have that trial against 19 defendants in october, but mark meadows is dotting his i's, crossing his t's while he waits for the removal hearing decision. >> what's your expectation of when we're going to get a word from the federal judge? >> i would imagine relatively soon, katy. i think all of the judges these cases there's a value in moving expeditiously. by the way, the meadows' motion to remove is not frivolous. i don't know that it succeeds necessarily. there are three prongs that he would have to prove, and i think two of them are easily provable. i think the open question for judge jones, the federal judge considering this is whether he meets the second prong simply whether his conduct, the alleged conduct was within the scope of his official duties as white house chief of staff. i think the better argument here is that it was not and that the motion more likely than not fails, and that he remains in state court, and it doesn't get transferred to federal court. but, again, not a fruitless motion, and it absolutely makes sense to me that the meadows' team would take a swing at it. >> we are waiting and watching for that decision. all right, we have that sound loaded. those tapes have been loaded. let's play, the lawyer from mr. chesebro arguing why he should be severed from sidney powell, and why the d.a. says that, no, they should be tried together. let's listen. >> why should mr. chesebro have to deal with a jury who's going to sit there for weeks if not months and listen to all of this evidence related to coffee county and ms. powell. he's never been there. he's never met ms. powell. he's never e-mailed, texted or called her. he's never spoken with her directly or indirectly, and i'm not trying to steal the thunder on behalf of mr. powell, the same is to be said for ms. powell. why should she sit there for weeks and months, hearing evidence and testimony about the alternate slate of elector scheme when she's not alleged to have any involvement in that. >> we've heard a lot from both defendants about they didn't know the other people. they were located thousands of miles apart. they didn't know the other part of the conspiracy were going on. the case law is clear that that does not matter. of course anytime a person enters into a conspiracy, they are liable of all of the acts of all of their coconspirators, and that's it. evidence against one is evidence against all. >> i wasn't quite sure what we were going to see today, and i wasn't sure how interesting it was going to be. but i found the whole process to be fascinating. i thought was defense the interesting, and the points they were making. i thought the d.a.'s were convincing as well, and the judge, i thought the judge had some really important issues that were raised about the feasibility of getting this all done. did you glean anything from what the defense is going to look like when this does go to trial? are we going to see a lot of defense attorneys trying to throw the other defendants under the bus in order to get their client off? >> perhaps, sometimes you have antagonistic defenses. i didn't do it, the other guy did it. it's also possible that the defense will look a little bit about what you just heard from mr. chesebro's lawyer, that my client never, you know, was never there. he didn't speak to these people, he didn't text with them, he didn't e-mail with them. he doesn't know them. in other words, trying to separate from the pack. everyone today played their roles well. they made the arguments that you would expect to be made from either side. again, my bias, katie, i think the government had the better argument. there's a presumption in the law that conspirators are tried together. if charged together. the way a judge would normally handle that is by giving a jury limiting instructions perhaps. you could only consider the evidence against mr. chesebro, and the evidence against ms. powell against ms. powell. there are ways to apportion for a jury. i think everyone made the arguments you would expect them to make. >> last word on this. >> i think chuck is right here that everybody played their part well. i do think we saw a preview of ken chesebro's defense in that his lawyers were trying to portray him as an intellectual to try and divorce him from team crazy. ken chesebro, even though this is not how the white house lawyers sought, they're trying to portray him as normal, assuming that the trial date sticks and scott mcafee has indicated that he fully intends that. >> i'm so glad there are cameras in the courtroom, i think it's interesting, important to know what's happening, this is an extremely important trial, but extremely important moment in time in this country, and thank god we get to see it with our own eyes. thank good we get to see the justice system trying to hold people accountable and the defense tried to say, listen, this was not our fault. i think it's important. lisa rubin, thank you very much. chesebro, not chesebro. we think it's chesebro. chuck rosenberg, you're not going anywhere. stay with us. coming up next, turning to the mar-a-lago documents case. what one of donald trump's attorneys warned him would happen if he did not comply with a grand jury subpoena to turn over classified documents. a to over classified documents. ♪i've got home internet from t-mobile.♪ ♪it only costs $50 bucks at t-mobile.♪ ♪just one cord to set up.♪ ♪say goodbye to that truck.♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful mornin'...♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful day...♪ ♪they won't raise your rates at t-mobile...♪ ♪you'll get a great deal every day!♪ home internet from t-mobile... just $50 bucks a month. loving this pay bump on our allowance. home wonder where mom andle... dad got the extra money? maybe they won the lottery? maybe they inherited a fortune? maybe buried treasure? maybe it fell off a truck? or maybe they switched to xfinity mobile - the fastest mobile service. save hundreds a year over t-mobile, at&t and verizon. now i can buy that electric scooter. i'm starting a private equity fund that specializes in midcap. you do you. switch to xfinity mobile today. we have new details about the recordings donald trump's lawyer made of the conversations, while the government was asking for documents back. a source familiar tells nbc news evan corcoran warned donald trump the fbi might search mar-a-lago if he did not comply with the subpoena. back with us, msnbc legal contributor, chuck rosenberg. we have that, abc news has a little bit more. i'll read from their reporting. in a private poolside conversation during a break at mar-a-lago that day, according to corcoran's recordings, jennifer little relayed to him, evan corcoran, what she was told herself by two trump attorneys that trump would go ballistic over complying with the subpoena, that there's no way he's going to agree to anything, and he was going to deny there were any boxes at all corcoran recalled on his recordings. we know that the government has these recordings. they are all over the indictment that jack smith released months ago now about this case. we are getting more about what was said on those recordings. do you consider this to be damming or how would you place this idea that he would go ballistic over having to return the documents? >> well, it certainly suggests that he knew he had an obligation or at least he was told he had an obligation, katy, to return this stuff. he didn't want to. his lawyer, evan corcoran accurately predicted what the consequences would be if the fbi had, you know, believed and accomplished probable cause to get a warrant to go search mar-a-lago, and guess what they found, the documents that mr. trump didn't want to hand over. so the reason you see these references in the jack smith mar-a-lago indictment is because it is damming evidence. it proves mr. trump's knowledge, it proves his unwillingness to comply with subpoenas. it's really quite interesting. i don't know that it took an enormously for evan corcoran to predict the fbi would issue a search warrant. if the fbi believed there was stuff they weren't getting back and there was evidence of a crime, that's exactly what they're going to do. he turned out to be right. the reason you're seeing it in the indictment is because it is compelling evidence of what mr. trump did and what mr. trump knew. >> so evan corcoran is acting as donald trump's lawyer. doesn't doesn't think he has to return those documents. he thinks they're hit documents. how much of what he says to evan corcoran, hids his lawyer should be admissible in this case, isn't he allowed to say, i don't want to give them back to his lawyer? >> normally communications between a client and her lawyer are privileged. they're confidential. we don't get to see them. we don't get to inquire of them. but what happened here, katy, is that a federal judge found that there was an exception to the normally sacrosanct attorney client privilege. there was an exception because they believed mr. trump used his attorney to help him conceal or commit a crime. he wanted his lawyers to lie on his behalf. he wanted his lawyers to mislead the department of justice. and oh, by the way, mr. trump also misled his own lawyers. so your question is very savvy. it's exactly right. we normally don't get to see this stuff at all, except where a client, mr. trump, uses his lawyers to commit a crime. then the exception goes away and we get to see and hear from evan corcoran, mr. trump's lawyer, both see and hear from him at trial because he will be a witness for the government, and my guess is a compelling one. >> donald trump's team is going to try to push back and say, listen, this should not be allowed and the crime fraud exception should not be used here. they're going to appeal it, push back on it. from what you have seen, do you think the government has a good case to keep those documents from evan corcoran, to keep those recordings. >> i think the government has a compelling case. they were careful in their proceedings and went before a federal judge and asked her to make a finding that the attorney-client privilege doesn't exist here, it has to yield to a crime fraud exception. you're right right, katy. if mr. trump is convicted at trial, you can be certain one of his arguments on appeal is the court erred in permitting government to pierce that attorney/client privilege. it will be an appellate issue if there's a conviction in the case. for now, the government has used mr. corcoran's information, knowledge, testimony, and again, i think you're going to see that at trial. >> joining us now is former attorney for donald trump, somebody who knows all about what we were just talking about. tim parlatore. have you heard those recordings? you know what was said, what evan corcoran was talking about. what can you tell us about this moment and this idea that donald trump didn't want to give back these government records? >> you know, unfortunately we've only seen, you know, small snippets of this. but when you read the entirety of the transcript as i have, it's very clear that this is a standard conversation between an attorney and a client who has never received a grand jury subpoena before, and they're asking questions about what are the left and right limits. obviously there's a lot of, you know, trumpisms inserted into it, so the conversation is a little bit more meandering in some ways, but ultimately at the end of the day, there's a lot of stuff that was not reported in there about where he's asking about very specific cases of where criminal grand jury subpoenas were put out, lawyers deleted 30,000 e-mails before sending it back, and he's asking, david kendall did this for hillary clinton, are we allowed to do the same thing. here's the key, at the end of the conversation, he tells evan corcoran, go ahead and do the search, and that is, you know, that's the key that makes these notes something that really should not have been turned over in their entirety the way judge howell did. >> do you think there are any exceptions in there, moments that maybe something untoward was happening, where the crime fraud exception does hold? >> you know, that's a very good question, and one thing to remember is at the time that we -- the answer is yes, and i'm going to get to it, because at the time that we litigated this, we weren't allowed to see the government's pleadings. when the government made their argument in court, we were there, we made our argument. they asked us to leave the room. we never got to hear what the government's theory of the case was. i wish we had. reading the indictment, i would concede that a small portion of these notes under their theory would be probably discoverable under crime fraud exception, and that is the specific portion where evan says i am going to come back and search in this place on this day because under the government's theory, that is what informed, you know, the movement of boxes by walt the day before. and so that one portion i would concede would fall under the exception under their theory but the remainder does not. >> that is interesting, though, that evan corcoran said i'm going to come in on this day, and the government believes donald trump said to his aide, walt nauta, a coconspirator here, move these boxes so evan can't find them. >> right. >> it's kind of a big deal, though, right? >> the fact that evan told them, this is when and where i'm going to be, if the government's theory is backed by evidence on this walt moving the boxes allegation, that would be relevant to that. but really it's just limited to that. the rest of it is classic attorney client communications, this should not been turned over. and judge cannon will reverse judge howell's decision, as they did on the scott perry case yesterday or the day before. i don't think the judge howell's rulings at the time are going to stand. one important thing as well. when we litigated this, ordinarily a ruling comes down and you get a certain period of time to turn the notes over or file a notice of appeal. judge howell turned the notes over instantly to the government and didn't give an opportunity to file a notice of appeal as she did with scott perry. what you saw with the scott perry, where they appealed it, and appellate court disagreed with her decision, we were denied that. thereby really depriving them of jurisdiction, and they kicked the can down the road and judge cannon will decide. >> you could have a portion of this is that still stands, even if some of it is thrown out, if evan corcoran has to testify to that, what kind of witness is he going to be? >> not a helpful witness to the government. really it's going to be limited to that one thing about they said this on this day. and i think that they will probably, you know, proceed by a stipulation on that point, rather than go through the spectacle of having evan come in, and you never know what he's going to say helpful to the client. and i think that's probably just a risk that everyone wants to avoid. there's cleaner ways to do it. >> tim parlatore, always good to have you. thank you so much for joining us, and we especially appreciate you coming on to talk about stuff you are intimately aware of. you have seen documents we have not been able to. appreciate it, tim. >> thank you. coming up next, how did the killer now on the loose in pennsylvania, escape prison. the answer this video that police just released. e answer tt police just released sudden gus. say goodbye gush fears! thanks to always ultra thins... with rapiddry technology... that absorbs two times faster. hellooo clean and comfortable. always. fear no gush. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv have fun, sis! ♪♪ can't stop adding stuff to your cart? 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>> reporter: yeah, katy, that question was posed to them time and time again. they say it's something they're looking into. again, earlier after the first prisoner escaped several months ago, they added the barbed wire, clearly that was not enough. now they're looking into adding security camera, additional personnel on the ground, and they're also hooking to enclose more of the exercise area in which both of the prisoners managed to escape from. so a lot of questions, a lot of pressure on the chester county prison to make changes with these prisoners now two escapes in the past couple of months and in this instance, an ongoing massive dangerous man hunt. >> looking into it doesn't seem at all adequate, let me ask you about schools in the area. they still shut down? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely. several districts shut down for a second day in a row, other things, businesses, longwood gardens, a massive 1,000 acre botanical garden, he was spotted on the property there with a trail camera, seen on surveillance not too long ago. people are exercising caution. because not only did was he just sentenced to life for murdering his girlfriend, stabbing her to death in the u.s., but he's wanted out of his native country, brazil, for a shooting and a homicide. this is a dangerous man they are trying to bring back into custody want. emilie ikeda, thank you very much. an nbc exclusive, andrea mitchell is with us, and her interview with u.s. ambassador to the u.n., linda thomas-greenfield as the u.n. investigates genocide in darfur, what women and girls say is happening to them there. what women and girls say is happening to them there. mes, ths of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte™. ask your doctor about caplyta find savings and support at caplyta.com. oh stuffed up again? 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>> i said this morning that they have a problem with credibility, that in fact and said it directly to them that people need to see action, not just hear words. >> that was back in 2005. andrea mitchell pressing then secretary of state condoleezza rice whether international pressure would be enough to make the government of sudan stop the ethnic cleansing forcing thousands of refugees into neighboring chad. now nearly 20 years later, thousands of sudanese women and children are once again fleeing every single day for their safety from what the u.n. is investigating as another genocide in dhar far with no end in sight to an escalating civil war with reports of atrocities mounting. andrea mitchell traveled to a sprawling refugee camp in chad for an nbc exclusive interview with time with the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. linda thomas-greenfield. joining us now from chad is nbc foreign affairs andrea mitchell. 0 years later and it's still the same. >> reporter: it is shocking and ambassador linda thomas-greenfield acknowledges that. she's been pressing for change. the reason she came here, katy is because this was reported to the u.n. in june, that for months it was escalating and it was approaching, you know, a real danger point seeing mass atrocities. so, she as the head of the security council in august convened a security council meeting on it as the president of the council because they rotate every month and had them in and reported again the same problems, but there was no action being taken, so she decided to come herself and she brought three reporters. i'm the only television reporter and npr was with us and reuters and what we saw was just horrible. the accounts that she was getting from these people, so i asked her about the fact that history is repeating itself. >> you know, it did change, but now we are seeing the evidence of it starting again, what we see happening in darfur right now portends to what we saw happening in darfur in 2004 so we have gone backward in those years, and that is why it is so important that we hold those responsible accountable and i will, as you know, announce the sanctioning of senior individuals from the rsf who have been engaged in the commission of atrocities in darfur. >> reporter: that is the rapid support force which is one of the adversaries in this, but, katy, both sides are guilty of different scales of problems and she says there are no good people involved in this. what she announced today was new sanctions and she reached the decision about new american sanctions, the treasury department, state department had to be satisfied that there are mass atrocities. there are also report, katy of mass graves and those are being investigated to see whether the u.n. and the international criminal court should be involved to declare again a genocide in darfur. >> it's horrifying and i know the ambassador has been trying to get attention to this for quite some time. andrea mitchell, thank you so much for bringing us that story. appreciate it. we have more breaking news to report, special counsel david weiss says he will seek a grand jury indictment of hunter biden by the end of this month. joining plea now once again is legal analyst lisa ruben. explain what's going on. >> the u.s. attorney is essentially saying to the judge, he had a status report saying he intends to file an indictment against hunter biden on what appears to be the gun charges against him by the end of september. you'll remember that when there was an initial plea agreement, katy. there were tax charges and also a pretrial diversion agreement stemming from some gun charges. >> that was supposed to be a non-issue then. the gun charges would be over. he wouldn't be facing any consequences for that. does this make clear that david weiss always wanted to charge him with this and was maybe inhibited from doing so. >> not necessarily. what this tells you is that in the wake of that plea agreement falling apart, david weiss is intending to go forward on some charges in what they refer to here as the firearm information. there were two separate criminal cases started at around the time that hunter biden was expected to plea. those tax charges have been withdrawn. there is some expectation that they will refile those perhaps in a different jurisdiction. you'll remember david weiss now has authority from the -- from the attorney general to proceed in other jurisdictions here. this is in the firearm case. hunter biden had a firearm while he was in possession of narcotics. >> got it. merrick garland made david weiss a special counsel a few weeks ago, lisa, thank you investment. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. today we saw the first televised standoff in the case brought by fulton county district attorney ni

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