A run down and what seems to be a recurring theme within policing institutions. In 2014, teresa may, the then british home secretary, commissioned a Public Inquiry into allegations that Undercover Police officers had spied on the family of Stephen Lawrence during their campaign to compel police to investigate the racist murder of their son. May called the revelations profoundly shocking and disturbing. Retired judge sir appointed to examine the conduct of officers who had spied on more than 1,000 political groups between 1968 and at least 2010. In june, medings first report was published arising out of the inquirys work, but has now become known as the spy cop scandal. It also followed revelations that undercover officers were regularly involved in longterm sexual relationships with women during this time. At least four of the undercover officers are known or laid to have their children with women they met. In her work. In july this year, more revelations have been uncovered, this time with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the psni and allegations they had obtained the authorization to access telephone records of journalist barry mccaffrey, after he approached the psnis press office in 2013, with questions for story he was working on about alleged corruption in the police force. Mccaffry was later arrested along with fellow journalist travor burney after documentary they were both involved in, exploring the role of police college. Into the deaths of six civilians in laughing island in 1994, uncover cover up into the killings. These latest allegations once again shine a spotlight into a police force that has been at the center of number of controversies since it was reformed and renamed following the patent inquiries recommendations in 2001. As always we are joined by our resident cobra center michelle gild michelle current np for formana south toron. She served in the Northern Ireland assembly as a former minister for. Culture and Rural Development and sure person of the Health Committee amongst other things. Michelle has been a senfian activist since her teams and elected almost continuously since 1998 and todays special guest is Award Winning barry mccaffry. Many of our viewers might remember barry from the film no stone unturned. An explosive expos on the spotlight on British State collusion and the massacre of six civilians who are watching the republic of ireland play italy at the world cup in june 1994. Instead of bodys investigative work. The police to examine the findings and prosecute the suspects, he and fellow journalist trevor berney became the focus of police attention. This led to both men being arrested in august 2018, only to be later vindicated and awarded damages. Barry, welcome to the show. Thank you, sean. For, how did you become a journalist . Uh, just by by chance. Sean, uh, at Work Experience at school uh, uh, ended up was looking enough. End up in the irish news and that was 1985 uh you know computers hadnt come in there still type writers and tippecks and uh things like that and you know during some uh summer hall days of would have uh volunteered for you the the r times used in phanem house in belfast and uh ended up working on bilton sites in jersey in the late 80s and early 90s and uh eventually came home, was doing a uh, night class just for you, the head space to do something, and somebody uh ended up saying that they were you know uh going to the journalist course and i just followed them uh, so it was just just always by chance, you know, barry, um, were going to talk away about your work on the stone unturned, but before we do that, were going to have a look at the trailer for the film. The world cup finals, i say the biggest day in Irish International soccer history, slaughter in locken island as loyalist terrorist shoot. People in the back as they watch the world cup on television, i just remember mommy saying to his that bad man had come into the pub and they shot six people and and dally was dead, did you see anything . No, the getaway car was discovered the morning after the attack, there was just a sense that something wasnt right, somebody somewhere helped these people cover this up, we were thwarted all the time, every question. We asked, we were told we cant tell you that, thats national security, they were absolutely rutheless, ill never forget their words, we believe no stone unturned and those words rang in my ear to this day because i dont think they ever left the stone, never mind turned it, so i was briefed to go down to belfast and interview several people, what was unusual is that i was told who i could speak to who i couldnt speak to what they would be saying, but just as importantly what they wouldnt be saying. Certainly the Bigger Picture was there was this gang operation and they were involved in serious criminality, obviously there was they going on up my head, the paper trail will lead to the British Government and they cannot allow that to happen, the police were saying the car was destroyed, i thought, hold on, the largest physical exhibit in the case and youve destroyed it, 10 years with no information, we were kept in the dark, they knew all along about the dirty war, youre taking me into an area i dont really want to go i dont think the risk if i could hit somebody early if theres a weak one of this team they might start tumbling how come they didnt do good question really do believe it goes as far up to the right to the top it it still gets me every time every time i see t or a piece of the film or or the film itself, you know, just what the families went through, the victims went through, and you know, the events that evening were horrendous, but the events leading from that and the way the police didnt investigate, still leads you with more questions and answers, doesnt it . Oh yes, yeah, uh, especially for the families, you know, nearly 30 years later, they they still uh, the only answers theyve got is they they found them out themselves, and theyve had to drag the the rc and psni you kicking and screaming in in the courts uh to try and get any truth uh whatsoever and you know that uh that quest that challenge still still goes on you know the ps and seem to be more interested in protecting you know the man who they say was the killer uh rather than giving the families justice and tell tell us just a bit more about the film how did you become involved in in the film itself what what what what . Well it it went back to so for for the first 10 years uh from 94 uh to 2005 the families kept a dignified silence they they didnt do any mear they didnt uh speak at all because the police had told them leave it with us you know we will leave no stone unturned you know uh and they put their trust in in in the place which you would do in you know if you lived in dublin or london uh or glasgow you just its supposed to be a Police Service, Service Somebody who serves the public, protects the public, so like every decent person that the families believed that you know the police were the were their best uh option, and then in 2005 they realized that that theyve been told lies for 10 years and uh through neil murphy uh the their sellicitor uh they agreed to speak for the first time uh and they did that uh through myself with with the rs news uh and nile and the families uh had tried to documentaries with the bbc, but the bbc had told them that they werent interested in legacy cases uh anymore uh and it was it was just meeting between trevor and nile and myself uh and trevor said well why dont we do something that because naming the killers or the people who the psn i said carried out the uh the murders. We uh concerned that that we would be injuncted and you know their identities or the the role that they played uh would never be exposed. So incredibly party after all that had been exposed and what had been seen within the film and the expectations that would have been there, you were arrested along with trevor burny . Yes, yeah, trevor, my myself uh, were arrested on the 31st of august uh 2018. Uh to go back when the when the film premiered uh we expected a reaction from from the psni uh probably naively we expected the ps and i to say uh right . We we were we look at the allegations in this film and you know we reopen the investigation and uh if we find that that they are true you know uh we you know well go after the killers uh and if if its not we you know we the filmmakers will be discredited uh and but instead what they did was that they they did say that they would reopen the investigation uh but it was to find out who our sources were. Uh and that was you know that was a scary moment or you started to realize this is this is a bit strange what youre sorry youre not going uh after the killers anymore youre you know youre shooting the messenger uh and that was so that led on for for year and uh you know we we had a concerns about what would happen uh but we never thought that uh that would we would be arrested, the the the normal tried and uh tested uh method that that the relationship between the police uh and any police force and journalists or filmmakers uh if the Police Believe you have uh information that they believe you know could it could help solve a crime or whatever uh they go to court and they look for a production order from a judge uh and they go into court. And the journalists or the filmmakers go into court and you argue the issue out in front of a judge and the judge decides uh and thats the way it it should have been thats the way anywhere else in the world that it happens but thats not the way it happens here so on uh the 31st of august 2018 7 am so i i look downstairs and i see this blue boiler shoot uh this figure in a blue boiler shout you know at the front door and it its at that stage you you think right thats either one or two people thats either the uf or the the the killer coming to shoot us or its its the place and you you have decision to make it that stage you know do you run back in and head underneath the bed you know or uh you know do you let them put the door in what what do you do so decided it i just got in the stars and sort of front. Whatever it was you know uh and i was sort of delayed it when it was a when it was a cop at the door you felt like huging him we arrived at street the station and theres two levels the musgrif street theres the the ground level was for the shoplifters and you know somebody got drunk and made a full of themselves or whatever and then the second level penthouse thats the anti terror suite thats the bin laden suite and i was hoping we were going down into the shoplifter but no we we ended up going up in the lift and then youre stripped uh and you you dna taking fingerprints and uh and uh and all of that and and then youre putting your you your shoes are off and youre youre putting the cell or whatever uh and then you have a weak cry to yourself you know you get in underneath the planket and you just you know all you wants your mommy the uh and then so and that went on shocking at that stage to see the day w there the main prosecution witness against us and they say they say killed six people uh and thats how first the the psi uh the investigation was they werent trying to find uh you know uh they werent trying to find justice for lock and island families uh they were using the killer against us to try and you to try and shut us up mental just just illustrates very clearly how how dysfunctional this place is. Doesnt it, but youve also the embarried because it it just doesnt end there and raid and the rest all the rest of it, youve recently been at the center of a place spain scandal where the investigative paris tribunal set up to investigate complaints against the Intelligence Services and public authorities have uncovered a further case going back to 2013, so we we initially thought that it was going to be abocken island, thats you, thats what we were really uh interested in uh, but the ipt came back and said, no, no, uh, sorry, you were spiyed on actually five years earlier in 2013, and were were going to investigate this case or this uh incident first before we get to locken island, uh, and it was only by cross references in the dits that we realized what the case was about, because they dont tell you the what uh, you know, what these, you know, what you were being spied on, and it was only through sheer look. Sheer look that when i cross referenced the dates i realized that actually what it was, it was a story that i was doing about Police Corruption, youre still tuned into the. Conversation, your weekly alternative probe of political events and Current Affairs around ireland. Im joined by my cohost michelle gildernew, alongside our special guest, investigative journalist barry mckeffry. Thank you, so obviously all of that is going to have an impact on Public Confidence in the in the psna, do you think that extends to academia or trade unions or other professions as well . I have no, no doubt that uh, what has happened to trevor and myself, were just the tip of the iceberg, the. We we have we have met with a broad range of people from academia, ngos uh, and right across sassarity, and what has been most alming is that this, this isnt a oneoff uh, we have no doubt its happening the journalists, theyre spying not only on journalists, but uh, we we met one person who was member of the policing board uh, he was a civilian member of the policing board, and they were able to tell us that uh this the exact same thing had happened to them uh the chief constable needs to front up now tell us you know this isnt stazy germany its not supposed to be stazi germany the the you a Police Service is supposed to serve the public theyre not supposed to spy on especially people who are only doing their job journalists we are entrusted by society to hold government and government ag agencies to account. Journalism isnt a crime, and how damage and overall do you think this has been uh the public convers . I think this this is just the list in a long line of you know selfinflicted mistakes that the psni have uh committed on themselves uh you know what how how does society why how is society supposed to have confidence in placing when we know we now know that police or. Why you what have the psni to hide . Why why are they spying on us . Why didnt they come and say sorry, theres an allocation of Police Corruption uh and were investigating it . Why did they and why are they still trying to hide through these secret courts . Yeah, barry, suppose many of us grew up with police and army raids on our homes in the 70s and 80s, but the ones post good freddy agreement were nearly worse because it was a different um, a different environment in which. Were happening, but that read on you and your family was terrible or deal, what impact did it have . Its like a boomerang, it keeps on coming back, you know, so you have to its it uh, id be very open about you know have it, it it challenges with Mental Health or whatever uh, so you know you have to talk to people uh, you you have to cope with it, some you know some people just you you can compartmentalize it and and uh, you put it away uh, and it did, listen, it it takes a heavy tool, and after all this happenbury, how do you view, i mean, do you still have confidence in the police . We have to bring this thing right to the very end to defend press freedom, because if we dont fight it to the to the last, you know, stretch, theyll do this again and again, we have to make sure that what they have done never happens again, because if theyre not and the only way we can do that is if they are held to account so they they cant have these secret hearings and uh closed door uh hearings that we dont get into that our solicitors dont get into the psni can tell whatever lies they want in and nobodys there to challenge it because were not allowed in if were going to restore conence and placing it has to be open and it has to be transparent and tsni have to come out and say sorry we spied on you know so many whether its journalists, ngos, politicians, ordinary people in the street, you know, thats what the stasie had to do, the files were opened, thats what you know, so if the psn i have files on on every member in society that they shouldnt have, if they have been spying on the uh, people in society, well lets open the files, it was good enough for germany, it was good enough for south africa, but the the home of democracy british. Democracy, if this is a democratic society, lets open the files, because if they have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear of, thats you know, thats the thing, either theyve done wrong or they havent done wrong, and if they havent done something wrong, let lets have it open open in court, well listen, i want to thank you for coming in again, its always a pleasure to see you, we want to wish you all the best for the future, thank you, thank you, this week we took our cameras to dublin. To have look at the mur Street Campaign where a small number of activists have been challenging the Irish Government to maintain the cultural integrity of area described by the National Museum of ireland as the most important site in modern areas. In april 1916, the course of arish history changed forever, in a rebellion that witnessed hundreds of armed revolutionaries take on the mate of the british empire, call for national right to freedom and sovereignty was read out by one of the leaders of the rising podrick pierce as he stood with an armed guard on the steps of the gpo in dublin. After number of days of pitch street battles and heavy bombardments by the british army, decision was made to. Evacuate would now had been the center of the insurgency at the General Post Office in ocannel street. With the building ni in flames, the remaining republican defenders made their way to five mirror street and began tunneling from house to house along the street. The following morning, one of the leaders, james conley was wrapped in blankets and carried through the holes they forced in the walls to number 16. In a small room, shaw mcgermada, podrick pierce, joseph plunker. James conley and tom clark discussed the limited options open to them, including roushing the british army barricade on parnill street. Tom clark, who went to look at the situation, returned to tell the leaders that it could not succeed. The leaders came to the reluctant conclusion that surrender was the only choice open to them to avoid further loss of life. Julia granon, winnifer carny and elizabeth ofarl had stayed throughout easter week in the gpo. Ofar was night asked with a dangerous responsibility going to the british lines where general loe informed her that he would only accept unconditional surrender. A short time later, podrick pierced accompanied by ofarl and morning his military coat and hat, left the mirr street headquarters of the provisional government to meet general loe. The interaction was not over. All segnatories to the proclamation were later executed by the British Government. Seven years later, and this historical iconic battlefield area is under threat from corporate interests. Commercial plants have been drawn up to buldos one of irelands most important historical sites, but not without a fight. The mr strate Preservation Trust lay up by the relatives of the senatories of the 1916 proclamation of the irish republic have been pressuring the Irish Government to commit to preserve the sath, in order to instead develop the area into a 1916 cultural quarter in the heart of. Rather than witness the further gentrification of the capital city, the group aims to enreach and preserve the court reflecting the aims and dials of the man women of 1916. Us filmmaker rom maxwell describes at well, battlefields looking glasses in of our ancestors, standing on their earth under the skies, its beat one with them and disserly understand humanity connections across time. The generation that won independence lives in the ideas we honor, the architecture we preserve, and the battlefields we can yet save. As it now stands, the future of one of irelands most iconic historical sites is in the balance. A decision by the Planning Board is imminent, what will it hold . And that does it for another week. Wed love for you to join the conversation by sharing the link to todays program across all our social media platforms. Id like to thank our special guest. And my cohost michelle. In the meantime, the conversation will be back next week with more investigations and analysis. Im sewn, bye for now. Im topic here on tv, i want you to join me for cats and dogs. We take a quick look at. Laundry in washington, bad manners, the united nations, and barking people in germany, literally. Thats all on tv with me. Opic and kats dogs, dont it . 做 过 这 么 大 的 大 , 这 个 战 士 要 再 下 下 , 所 以 我 们 的 。 that lines president s are on successful satellite launch into orbit as yet another indication that sanctions cannot stop the countrys progress. The Iraqi Security forces arrested over dozen suspects in connection with the inferno christian wedding ceremony as. Same morning mass held for the victims and the democratic peoples republic of korea and constitution to bulster its Nuclear Power status to deter us vacations