Transcripts for BBC Radio 4 FM BBC Radio 4 FM 20200129 110000

B.b.c. News at 11 o'clock up to 200 British citizens being flown back from the Chinese province of Cuba where the corona virus outbreak began or to be put into quarantine it's understood their flight will arrive in the u.k. Tomorrow the Foreign Office has advised against all but essential travel to the Chinese mainland prompting British Airways to suspend flights the number of infected stands at nearly 6132 people have died Russia says it's working with China to develop a vaccine for the new virus one of several such efforts around the World Health Institute in Australia says it successfully grown the virus after taking a sample from a patient it could take at least a year for any vaccine to become available to the public. The Syrian army says it's recaptured a strategically important town and it led Syria's last rebel held province the fall of. After 7 years in rebel hands was announced on state television our Middle East analyst Alan Johnston reports according to the Syrian army it approached man a new man from 3 sides the military says it clashed heavily with Jihad the fighters who withdrew to the north ceding control of the town to the government it straddles a major highway that's been an objective for the army as it's pushed slowly through provinces in recent weeks ahead of the advance hundreds of thousands of civilians have fled the fighting in strikes many families are struggling to cope in camps and makeshift shelters near the Turkish border in what is a growing humanitarian crisis president of Turkey has denounced Donald Trump's plan for peace in the Middle East saying it ignores Palestinians rights he said the idea of making Jerusalem Israel's undivided capital was unacceptable because the city is sacred to Muslims Apple has posted record quarterly results driven by strong demand for its new i Phone sales in the last 3 months of $29000.00 rose by 8 percent year on year to more than $70000000000.00 pounds b.b.c. News this is b.b.c. Radio 4 now despite rumors gossip and social media frenzy a gay footballer from the top of English football has yet to reveal their sexuality but openly gay players are part of the women's game including the national team now on b.b.c. Radio 4 Beth Myers asks what the men's game should lend from its female counterparts in my name is. My name is bet Miles and last summer I was photographic Glastonbury in my England pint glass in hand celebrating England piecing Norway in the women's World Cup. If I so enviro which was wild the Lionesses lost in the semifinals but the profile of the women's game thanks to the team and American players like Meghan Robina is the highest ever. There is a dedicated women Super League games are shown on t.v. And last summer nearly 12000000 people watched the Lionesses play in the World Cup semifinal. A number of the squads and other players within the w s l openly gay bisexual quit and this just isn't focused on within media but it's totally different in the men's game. Despite rumors and what feels like almost an obsession to know who it is that hasn't yet been a male professional player who has come out publicly. And say I moved to London about 4 years ago and I was introduced to a football team for women and non-binary people could go to his f.c. We train on a Wednesday night at a school in north London and that's where we're at tonight so what I can see is around 40 or so women from different ages different abilities and that's the key to gold because there's an ethos of gold diggers is that we're creating an inclusive environment for women and non-binary people to play football it's based on accessibility rather than ability we. Were frequently 60 people that train on a Wednesday I mean it's a sense of that community of people who love football and who encourage one another you know in relation to the game and also just sort of generally really. Nice. So. Go to guess 4 years ago. Although everyone. Here is one of our senior coaches plays for Captain f.c. . I was saying to. Go to guess about a year and a half ago and it's been a wonderful experience for me in London but understand who is a go and how amazing that is yes so I saw the team basically because I was honestly just fed up being told that it was a man's game and again that was May be told that since a very young age when I was one of the best not bragging but it's. On the best in my mixed team and then as the narrative goes I was kicked out aged I think I was around 12 because they I was told it was a sport for me and I used to pass boys in the park and Phil extremely jealous of them and wish I was a boy I could play football it's a place for everyone basically to make football a place for everyone in every sense of the word so yeah it's been the community I've got the friends I made and the change I can see in people's confidence is just outstanding and makes me truly so so happy and so proud of what we've achieved as a player for the community. This is my question around why is there not a professional footballer this whereas you know at least 5 of the Linus is openly gay and they were already bus knowledge it's not explore but they're also not championed as someone I'm personally I'm a lesbian if I were a men's gain I've been made to feel like it's not a space for me if I was that my girlfriend I would never in public and that's really really sad. In a time when we should be allowed to do that but actually it feels like you 2nd. When you step backwards. As soon as someone's will take it and pay them money and. Whatever goes. As you know whatever happens in Vegas stays in Vegas kind of and sure they have in the state. And I think you like such on matters like Myspace where a lot of a consumer phobic as in this terminology you have with. Us you're listening you're not. Like basically a hotbed of toxic masculine So you know where like that behavior is not only like turned a blind eye and it's actually encouraged and it's actually supported and it's actually like I made a joke out of someone who coaches men and women like the new young boys and young girls is starts at such a young age like the way young boys speak to each other on the little bit just like you discussed and just makes me so angry especially in the men's game. Every strategy is seen as a weakness you know something which. Is. But it's not weakness it's so hard to come out I'm sure you guys will agree but I'm the heart of things in my life was coming out and for so long I tried to commit myself that I was right and I tried very hard and it's hard and I think that's the amount of strength it takes to be up on your board to come out and to know that. Your family will be. And to come out of strength it's going to take for a professional man to come out. Of the scrutiny that you're like This is literally an obsession of. Not. It's not a situation in which it. Is going to be championed Yes just so much pressure. On are investigating reports of homophobic chanting during Saturday's game against Chelsea in a statement the result of being fined 7 pounds and $500.00 pounds and ordered to take action after fans chanted homophobic abuse at for much they are frightened for . The mix during yesterday's match and subsequently arrested behind my back abuse and I remember. Yeah Ok so. In the school Social Sciences University my research focuses on. Broadly in Men's Christian football with a specific focus. Towards homosexuality last year Dr McGrath published the power of masculinity in sports which he concluded by saying that the majority of football fans and players would be supportive if a male footballer came out 1st glance it looks like things are getting worse yet at the same time. From a more nuanced perspective it also shows that people are becoming less tolerant of these issues happening inside stadia as well some talking about professional level certainly for reports of discrimination inside stadia in professional game shows I think that you know people are less willing now to put up with these issues another 4 more likely to report it which again is in a kind of a paradoxical way is further evidence of progress it shows that our attitudes generally have improved so much that we are willing to put up with homophobia by phobia were transferred via I think the proof will eventually be when an openly gay male play does come out of this with an obsession I suppose over he's going to be the fust. A professional player in the u.k. And I think that obviously statistically there are many. If not choose as your research suggests have shifted you know that attitude that they're accepting of it even if they partake in them if they that chanting which is something that I can't wrap my head around why really how someone could feel sesson way that still kind of engage in that kind of behavior but I think it's kind of yes and I think one of the biggest. Complexities I think that football has is in the men's game again I should stress is that there is no target as such because there are a number of any gay male players also that may well be a target because a player has been diving or has been alleged to be weak if he's pretending to be injured or whatever so often they are the target but I do wonder whether or not if a player comes out in the program at the top level whether or not language would continue on the basis that now there is a target that someone could potentially be offended by it or someone could potentially be affected by it because the reason I've been a player on the pitch because it goes away speculation so we'll never really know until it happens. And Regent's Park and there's lots of grassroots but we teams are out playing on him and would. Last year was a really brilliant of the World Cup and given the recognition. Fantastic I think one thing that we. Probably are. Going to be. And I certainly feel frustrated because we're in the women's game. At the professional level. Yet and then also champion for that that media environment is deeply unhelpful at the moment it just kind of. Kind of sensationalist kind of hyped up coverage of the topic just makes it harder for anyone who might be can mulling over their options and then the contrast in the women's game actually there's very little spotlight I think actually the kind of the lack of media focus probably does make it easier for women to be themselves and to be who they are but it also means they don't get to be role models here is big an audience as possible is a real shame you know if you think about can you make an appeal. Here and the global superstar she is so much more than any of perhaps more relatable women. She might be able to be a more realistic role model for young people kind of growing up in men's football it's a really different picture that lack of representation kind of mean that you know young young boys playing football may not see themselves sticking with the game and clearly will have impact some people kind of following through. On a continuing life I guess kind of thinking you know it's my path in football if there's no one who's taken it before Stonewall have been and continue to work with the f.a.a. And the rainbow laces. Campaign is now a regular part of the football season Robbie told me that the governing bodies are making positive strides and taking more responsibility to tackle the homophobic racist transphobia and other abuse that keeps me and other football fans away from the men's game my producer Richard manages his sons under 11. I'm very conscious of what. We say about it struck a nerve you should show those physical attributes of a muscular. Do you sense those ideas around muscular need to change and I think they are changing but nowhere near fast enough and when you think about how police organized how far away your son's under 11 team is from any of these kind of big institutions that are starting to have these conversations a lot of this relies on individuals whether an individual is kind of switched on to the idea that maybe it isn't was helpful to say man toughen up don't cry like a go all of these words that we all know are offensive I think sometimes in football we think it's an Ok environment to use that kind of language and you know sometimes it might be seen as a last pasty and of masculinity. Point was really interesting which is because there are women who are in women's game that is an issue with him figure within the women's game and actually that could be quite dangerous perhaps kind of misconception there's a positive in the sense that it seems that there are more players that have felt able to come out but that's likely because yes they're being less focus on the on the women's game which then means that jumping these players that are a fantastic role models for young people you know that there is not support and not focus on these brilliant players in these brilliant stories. Well this is an important day for Bali Not only do they face a vital local derby against fierce rivals Jews break but that Captain Keegan Hurst has become the 1st professional rugby league player to announce that he is guy. He can host came up publicly in 2015 he's a rugby league player and was captain of. The times when it came 2015. Private life a few months before it was very public newspapers and things. You know always was it was difficult obviously. My ex-wife had. A farm where the family went to almost all the kids. And it's only sex so when I grew up. In a was. Demonstrated to me buying them off my mum brought me up on a row we were bringing my sister my dad was never around. Guess I never really other a father figure role model I was read a lot of books and I guess I love the history so maybe my idea of what the money's came from from books I guess I thought that I out. And the men that were in my life whether that was play is you know a lot of dogs who I played we've all my friends dogs we're all very. Muscular very stereotypical muscular in the sense of you know if the show dog in the said they were helping our center when he compared men and women's football you got to look at the difference in the fan base not only the size but the makeup of their who's going to watch women's football who's going to watch men's football because people are going to watch men's football by and large. Men. Straight men very not as something about society and what's going on outside and so I think this is an ignorance in the family base that perpetuates a fear him play as he can now uses his experiences of playing in the much a world of rugby to speak to young people especially young footballers a professional club academies so when I go and speak to the academies I'm talking to lads who are between 16 and 2122 so there is a wide range of experiences and you know you can go talk to. Called like Sheffield and we've got lots from London and have got you know lots from abroad as well of being and sports clubs where they've got European lads in and obviously there are huge to all of us gay people and might be different in the country where they're coming from and you know you can judge the reactions of every shock all I just a decent dress and sizes but by and large the odds. Are really receptive and it's come down really really well across European football there are more owners and sponsors from countries where homosexuality is seen as wrong or worse still illegal I think that money plays a big part and then you know you look at where the money from football comes from and a lot of it I mean is coming from the Middle East and you look at. That views on homosexuality there's a lot countries where people. Kill for it in general which we in this country a lot more would probably and certainly law countries that as a as a big imparts there's just so many things affecting it we did speak to want to expand the economics of sports he spends a lot of time in the Middle East he told us he had witnessed homophobic comments while sting could tell the host of the next men's World Cup. His view is that financial influence from these countries as well as Russia and China across all sports is only going to Greg the boardings clock and Sullivan thank you for joining us here reports out this morning my apologies for the slight late running in October 26th seen the chairman of the Football Association Greg Clarke was called before the department the Culture Media and Sport select committee one question that was asked was why there weren't any male professional footballers who are out I would be nice to we haven't got a place in the Premier League and I am personally I I'm personally a shame but they don't feel safe to come out why do they feel safe to commit I think what we have in football is a cross-section of society when you get a sample size of 4000010 percent of the population but 10 to 10 in 2 or 300 general population I watched David Beckham 15 years ago running you know on the volley of The View Siegel because he was dating a pop star of the time may now say to the stomach if I was a gay man why would only expose myself to that so all chill is to identify anybody guilty of persecuting in any way members of a minority an ethnic minority a sexual maturity or age and the women get volunteers to our job is the regulators to come down like a ton of bricks and make sure that that sort of Abrahamian is driven from the guy that was Eva 3 years ago and still a male professional footballer hasn't felt able to come out. The Football Association didn't want to take part in the program but did tell us that the f.a. Is committed to tackling homophobia by fair and transfer in football at every level of the game we continue to work with partners across the game such as stonewall and l. G.b.t. Fan groups to encourage fans and players to report abuse both at a national and county f.a. Level and work with the league's campaign groups and the statutory agencies to sanction and educate perpetrators so I'm here with manual but do you know who's a sports agent who works across football and rugby and has worked with the likes of Thomas and Robbie Rogers and Keegan Hurst we've spoken to you previously in terms of them coming out I wonder if you have any female sports people who have come up I have worked with female sports women and female footballers that are openly gay yeah and it's really interesting to see how come to a feel in their environment and you can look at it and you think I wish I could feel the same female football in its current form is a very new shiny package you know the crowd has started to come now but that's quite a new thing whereas historically the men's game has been established for a long time there are historic stories of the fear of the terraces and the abuse you look at the racism in football so I think the very nature of the 2 sports and the history of the sports mean that the men in the women's sport is is very different and almost in comparable the nature of footballers and football supporters won't really change and no one be educated unless they have their force to be educated i.e. Someone comes out as gay someone maybe abuses they get kicked out the ground the chief exec and David Beckham equivalent speaks and sits us or effect and suddenly you see a movement of wow you know I can't do this anymore he told me if and when a male footballer chooses to come out there will be huge commercial support from brands who would fall over themselves to be associated with them. Given the number of female players who are out is gay it feels disheartening to me that these players are not given the same support or profile I suppose one thing feels disappointing as a gay female football player and football fan my assumption would be that any commercial benefit an upside would be much less than if it was a male footballer that's a really interesting question and I think that being gay in the women's football game I do actually think although it's there are more openly gay female footballers I still think it is a bit of a point of difference and actually commercially there are not the same sums of money in the women's game will stop however for those that are openly gay I do think it gives you an angle of something different so you can go to gratitude towards you can talk to stonewall you can do an advert that's talking about l g b t m 4 was so I do think it gives you a point of difference however probably not enough it's probably not lauded enough and actually there's probably not enough credit given to the women who do come out as gay and whether it's because the sums of money simply not there's no real variation of the sums of money as in it's not a lot of money yeah so for a tiny bit more were it doesn't really matter and they just don't see some point I don't know but it definitely is probably not enough attention given to the fact you know they are and perhaps if for example the f.a. Or whoever actually really leaned on and highlighted the gay female footballers maybe it would just open up someone's eyes and just mean that she Joe was not a bad thing do you think the industry is doing enough and what would you like to see from the industry in which it's not just and the onus on kind of carrying the torch for the o.g.t.t. Plus community is it squarely on the players shoulders I think the industries are trying to do as much as they can I think you can always say you need to do more but I think I would be lying if I said I sit around and I look at what the f.a. Are doing and I hope they can do that in the hope that they'll inspire change because I don't see. How if I say honestly any new thing they do is going to suddenly make for borax pick up the phone isn't ready to come out because I don't really think he's sitting there looking at the f.a.a. I think you're looking at the countries where as an eagle to be gay in your car all of those things around there but then you look at Qatar 2022 and I know that they've been at least making the right noises in terms of saying I think the c.e.o. Said that people who genders and sexual interactions are welcome I'm sure you're going to hope to get comfortable but the fact is they're trying to do something and you can change the human rights laws in certain countries by being a gay footballer but you can certainly help so I think unless they've got someone to hook off unless there is someone that they can use it is lit she'll theory. I worked a hive in Barnet where getting ready to watch especially West Ham women's game me talking to the 2 of my friends Hillary and Isabelle who appear lifelong spares fans to kind of care about their experiences with anything and why by the hair washing women seem to say this is the Ws cell this is the silver the pinnacle of the women's club game isn't there yet and since we're fairly healthy crowds Yes I thought looks pretty busy and it's really great as well seeing lots of young people young women in particular coming down to tell her she gave. Me roses. It's. Just time to talk look see her with some great pals from both Hillary and Isabel and that for you saying For go to guess which I've been a member of by year in office when he joined as well if you know year and a half I mean that's a nobel to you here for you for me when I think I was before you by thought laughter Isabel So did you miss that funny thing to make certain that you just be a whirlwind and say yeah it's only showing that you got a good. The Women's Day and. Men's was about coming to watch a women's game like you love and want to keep coming back for more this is completely different Phyllis and I guess I mean the big thing is the cost of it like a success will. Come to the atmosphere I just think is a lot nicer like you get loads of angry man at the men's gainst shouting really aggressively a game a quest is a sight but so much testosterone in the athame nay almost a nice guy walking in and says loads of young people particularly young girls who are coming free like those very much more not finding any kind of vibes which is a much nicer nice space what we want she recently when we went to him she looks smells and he's waiting to. Know what it is about mostly men and the top but most of us stadium and it was different because I was just like those little spurs men's there and it just felt like a really different yet said wanting to get some more like. That more piece of it more heckling and stuff but it was still about you average men is going to look well k. Is that while women a thing and that was she was about yeah. I think what. We would probably from stay within the women's game stops for example just from the Linus's as I have on the school a plea is lesbian bisexual Conversely with the men's professional game there aren't any out players I like how important is to people and what personal level for different reasons and it was important to ask and I guess from my side of things it's for young people having a role model that someone that they can relate to within a sport they love and having And I guess of like I get frustrated a little bit with the fact that the women in the game are really champions so if they were casting scab and then also seen as he's a pretty figure has been in the way that but I could be you know in the u.s. Why is everyone so obsessed with Alabama it is one of what you ask about like if you if you carry. Question male plan although it's of us just put it to sex and paycheck isn't it like the men's game is just like a massive business industry in this country and say like that's why this very little tension paid so much to such rights of women with their career not quit but yeah I mean I think it is really bad that there's no out man a think it's a product of my homophobia by favorite transfer via wider society and for young boys who are growing up enough to pull you off where like it's really hard to be what you can't see was. Was. Evidence proves the outer beauty plus hate crimes within Why decide on the rise and this is married within football with Kick It Out data showing homophobic incidents having risen 9 percent season on season. To answer the question at the start of the program about what the men's game can learn is quite complex but to clear things stand out to me firstly not enough emphasis is put on the amazing athletes and Quero models within the women's game and secondly the men's game has to work hard towards changing their environment to mirror the women's inclusive ety in order to crazy climates for a male player to come out or else the question of why they still haven't felt able to do so will be embarrassingly left unanswered. Beth miles ending my name is which was produced in soul food by Richard McElroy No here's the appealing Claudia Hirmand we would love to know what you think about touch we starved of touch these days what counts is inappropriate touch and how does touch relate to sleep working with psychologists at Goldsmiths University on a major new study we would law. Like your help to fill some gaps in the research maybe you were one of the 55000 people who took part in the b.b.c. Loneliness experiment Well the touch test is open now and I'm hoping that thousands of you would like to take part you'll get a sneak preview of some results as soon as you finish and you can find the link on the radio for website or go to touch test dot org I'm intrigued to know what you think about touch Claudia Hammond next on Radio 4 No Joanna Lumley and Roger Allen play a couple who've been together for a very long time in conversations from a long marriage. Conversations from a long marriage by Jonathan towne starring John a long way and Roger Allen. Episode to Sally is your friend. It's how you can sleep. I can. I am asleep but I don't think so I could hear your breathing change. Foster That's because I was in the middle of a rather lovely dream one had to go back to it if you don't ask about Monica Bellucci again might have been. You friends of her ever since we saw her inspector you in kept us with rage How could you sign up for a Bond film and then only use about 32nd Stone films. But I'm not sure if I was dreaming about her I seem to remember her jumpsuit So it could have been an a come right. Right 2 or $342.00 when you wake up in the night it isn't and I bet Debbie says that the trick is to lie perfectly still she says it's the touching and turning it makes you more awake if you lie. I can act I have to stay completely quiet don't move back to sleep Could you try that please. What are you doing. Yes Get off we can't have sex Sally is in the next room set so she will hear her son has been in the next room lots of times over the years on holidays you know she had a tent for a fortnight so a bad job or 4 times because she was with Peter they were a couple It's fine when it's a couple but when someone's on their own like Sally it's up setting to hear other people making love it emphasizes their loneliness it's remarkably considerate of you and I am considerate we used to be considerate in another month maybe 2 what I thought she was just going to be here for a week she's Hessle pictures finish touching up the house that won't take long because Sally said you found out yesterday he's got dapper in the basement need do you want him self and he's back and forth to Kirsty's now she's pregnant can't suddenly go back and said I can't go back and share the house when I was going to say Can she go back and hurry him up or help him out he just want to know how do you write to be in a house to someone you love who doesn't love you there are days when I. Need to. Wake Sammy. Have some noise is she sobbing. Past crying us off to sleep do you think I should go and see if she's alright no white white listen but she's not sobbing it's too regular she's snoring. That's a surprise. Everybody stores sometimes believe may. But I never heard her snore before she's taken some sleeping tablet it means she's probably in a very deep sleep is. A sudden noise would still wake her up if she's going to be here wow I can't have to have silent sex takes me back to an every state if your parents separate bedrooms I proceed citing sneak and own land. To smuggle in some w.d. 40 because all the doors creak to my mum out is like a bat. The 1st 6 the chance of being called out as a powerful for does Yak I had the same feeling to do homework after school in my bedroom with Barry doing homework a classic euphemism sadly it now my mum made me keep the bedroom door open an early form of contraception almost thank her desire but nothing happened because I knew any minute mom would come crashing through the door with a teacher in some wagon wheels and said. Ha climbed up a ladder once to get into a girl's bedroom with approximate tray now. We've been doing Romeo and Juliet she was in there and I discovered her window was painted shot from bad luck tragic . Then her dad's Ford console swung into the drive past Dr inches from the bottom rung of the lander he read the engine the ladder wobbled and I panicked and jumped off and my knees never been the same since it was Sally who gave see that. She'd moved away by then and for the 100th time she was never my girlfriend she just rugby talk of me in a game of kiss chase and I wish I'd never mentioned it was just teasing it. Something about talking in the dark Tench think you can't see each other so you can say anything like go to sleep it really 6 months since Bonds are Dr Art Yes Do you miss having a dog yes. She could a rescue dog yes. There are lots of cute puppies but so many beautiful dogs have been abandoned that owner has died and we could give one a ho ho ho perhaps to a lovely couldn't say yes and if you like a specific target like. A laboratory or Husky did you know each breed has its own rescue society yes I really like the look of the Irish red and white Sasha. Good official one of my fed up saying Look I've said yes in fact that is a collective yes to anything you ask me enough no more questions and I know what an Irish red and white sedan looks like thank you very much goodnight. But. That's not Sally it's the bloody dog which had Betty in our room she said he'd be all right in his basket in the kitchen but clearly she was wrong. I'll go and let him our Sally will hear and she'll get. I don't think so. I can still hear her snoring The minute you go to sleep it's getting light it's hardly worth going to sleep now. Christmas this. Patch obviously female now that her other half is still in the nest with his wings over his ears. You did go back to sleep amazingly Yes. Hasa don't look confused but happy I put down his breakfast but there's obviously a ritual because he just kept staring at me sit with it eat we tried it bones are dog remember I'm successfully Anyway I just said Bertie I don't know what you're waiting for so he shrugged and got stuck in you could go back to bed here and now thanks lovely day stuff today or take the dog out I've already cleaned becomes cause mines in for service I know I've cleaned mine and some is. You can sell this car yes why because under the trees on the roofs of crap all over. This very nice of you I am nice person it's slightly creepy slightly watch t.v. You know like this guys used to leap out of direct traffic lights and has done your windscreen even though you didn't want them to Sally wasn't in the car and I'm sure she'll be very happy it's clean I bet she were could you go out and come in again in a better mood where she can clear a car like I do when was the last time you clean the car I do not for my mini I keep it immaculate you never go near a sponge a bucket you get it vomited in the multistory car park and you spent an hour fixing the links on her bracelet yesterday yes I did it was very like you were bracelet I knew how to do it you're just being too nice Well that's a 1st to know yes smarmy nice look Sally is our friend or your friend and our guest she's having a rough time and I'm helping out with things I can do for her has to learn to do them herself now that she's on her own yes all things p.c. Used to do for her she'll have to do so if I left you'd be able to bleed the radiators change the tires and install patio doors would you do all those things Whew really are completely delusional when if you ever change the tire I didn't say I had I said I can I know how to do it next time one burst at night in the rain on the m 25 I'll just sit back and let you get on with a challenge p.c. You were the one who told me we had to step in and support Sally and look after his presidency you had to be parked at that may depend on it be really clean your Garmin lady walk with the. Car but I'll be out tonight good because I was about to throw you out I've got Polaski is presumably Sam is going with you no she's not why not she says you just feel so wiped out and she hasn't got the energy to really be right you and Sally together in what sense. Remember when we gave up smoking together at the same time to the minute 28th of July 986745 pm which was extremely inconvenient as Diana and out were on their way around for a barbecue I didn't want to stop because I loved smoking and I enjoyed every one of my 5 silk Ah today but I was a chain smoker you reach for a cigarette as soon as you end your eyes in the morning and I had a hacking cough you definitely needed to stop so I gave up with you because I knew you wouldn't do it on your own because I have absolutely no willpower or self-control and I'm a constant disappointment we talked about how hard it was yes it was really true and one day I phoned your work and called said he's not here but he can't be far away because his cigarettes are on that desk and you pop that into your never let him forget folder and I suffered you'll see this rot for the next 10 years he said I promise we'll have no secrets ever again I did not did well if I did I didn't mean it it's a ridiculous promise to make all couples have secrets Carly Simon who also found that song we have no secrets we tell each other everything as a joke about a claustrophobic relationship you couldn't give up smoking good you wherever you're going with this I'm not coming with you you have an addictive personality and you think I'm addicted to Sally a bit you like the fact that she's grateful and smiles at you Well it's quite a novelty but this is all rather insulting to both Sally and me she's not a simpering airhead and I'm not Serrano de Bergerac currently the only man in her life so what self who've scared just to time normally think doing things that well have to make you some supper tonight she's very good I know that our rustle up an art a lengthy red rice and Keane are some of. The 1st women like men who can cook Sami likes to eat early this year yes she said we often seem to eat a bit late for her really accept on the table if. From now on then early is good because we can eat before the football starts Sally Knox football is beginning to sound like a Ladybird Book Sunny has been sadly what she's football happy Sally I'm sure she went to March so there will be leftovers when you. Left. Show us I just have a little flash what I didn't catch she's on my way down to her creek that's how authentic hip being nice chick This teaches run your fingers through your hat on and you're not. Just stop acting like you want to be a point sorry morning I give a Bertie his breakfast and made some coffee and he's clean joke isn't he wonderful . Come on quite a lot I'm printing we're taking Betty out he work He's so I don't know what he's I want you to hurry up the panic I don't want Sally to come with us we need a good call do we yes and so just Betty Betty Sally so wiped out at the moment he's not getting proper exercise and he's crapping all over the garden but can you take him I'm just going around the block No 10000 steps a day I've got my Fitbit keep up could you just slow down a bit there's no point in walking unless you stride out you don't get the benefit when you amble it's got to cardiovascular workout doesn't stop to be anything. Can you hold his lead a little firmer give a Jackie peeing on every blade of grass tell you what why don't you take birdy out and I'll just get back to trimming the wisteria I want us to go for a walk together can we just stay in together now because it's a lovely day and we don't to be stuck indoors and also Sally is always there on this which is starting with us yes but she's very apparent don't you think not especially now we can't do normal things while she's there what do you mean we can't relax I'm quite relaxed and somebody else is in the house you don't behave normally are not aware that my behavior has changed and it's because you're not sensitive to on Beals am I not well that's and I want to add to the list of my failures we can't have our usual conversations you know arguments I don't just mean so what do you mean I can't bend you over backwards on the kitchen table. We certainly can't be spontaneous It's like we're on our best behavior I didn't know you had a best behavior I can't say I've ever seen any evidence. Are you comfortable with the way she appears at breakfast and that flée she can manage. Can't serve notice of lease All right I have noticed but it's just what she wears to sleep in exactly she gets out of bed and comes straight down real Most nothing on a bed and just thinks it's completely acceptable to sit down and tuck into the musically and fruit dressed over rather undressed like this isn't acceptable you know for sure charm put some proper clothes on. Why is that funny I was just thinking of you at the Isle of Wight Festival certainly didn't have any problem clothes on the movie Young then now we're all quite mature she's in pretty good shape. As are you and you often we're floaty things that's when it's just us but if I was staying with friends I'd be hugely aware that I should shower and dress before breakfast I think it's rather brazen. But the Dowager Lady Grantham I want you to say something to have me she listens to you if I say please don't work for a few things at breakfast so a chill think is because I mean claimed by her underpinnings you could sound stat sheet just laugh oh well should read that 1st off here well maybe it's French then . She. Did you know better she peed on the sofa. Sally laughed and said oh he's just a bit insecure and he wanted to mark out his territory. And she's had him on her bed the last few nights on my 800 thread count cotton sheets she treats that dog like a baby. We never let Bonzo Dog in the bed don't really know but he's her comforter at the moment she needs him to come I think you should tell it to be more considerate that's not going to happen this won't last forever so just calm down when. I thought you were watching him I thought you were. I can't see him. God what are we going to tell Sally. We're going to tell him that he's bunk to retrieve or look over there oh thank goodness I don't think the owner would agree with you he's not happy and he's at least 6 foot 4 going champ I'm sorry you have to deal with this I'm off to pull out is do I have to do everything yes you do but I. Just cover your back I'll let you know I'm not. Were you wearing a bathrobe because I've just had a bath for what does anyone have a bath thank you not a glass of wine the next you have a bath that night well I did tonight. There's certainly going to bed. In the office man I know but you were right she's shattered almost fell asleep in my arms to linger and you have a birth before she went to bed her course not stopped the dishwasher took Bertie out for a quick walk Sally doesn't like going out in the dark horse rubbish she always joked around the block before bedtime he's a strong dog Bertie's like trying to hide on the back of a truck really pulls on the lead so did you pull you over in a puddle know why I'm still struggling to work out why you needed a bath Why are my back was already a bit after washing the cans this morning the moving the chest of drawers just a troll so I thought a soaking barf would be a good I don't want test of drawers did you move no one in service room. Because she asked me to. Why didn't you ask me what she probably hadn't heard about your multiple handy woman skills and fell for the old cliche that heavy lifting is a man's job of heavy imo but Peter did everything for her and she is not capable i.q. Capable hard to hear you've never lost the ability to surprise me what's wrong with Who Wants to be called capable Capability Brown I want to be called censorious bucking captivate and you are all of those things and so much more I do not want to be called capable Ok got it I won't call you that again to want to ask you to move it after supper Why did you want it removed she just said she wanted it under the windows so she could do her make up in a better light she could with the mirror on the window sill there's no need to move the furniture she didn't move it I did it was not a problem and it never is this Saturday so she invited you into her bedroom strictly speaking it's our bedroom one of our bedrooms What did she say exactly can you come up and move my chest I didn't you think that was a bit funny in a carry on sense yes I suppose it was funny so was she wearing a bathrobe as well neither of us were wearing a bathrobe we were fully clothed talking over supper about getting used to the layout of unfamiliar rooms and how it's not easy sleeping in strange but she seems to be sleeping all right did you tell her we had a snoring like a water hog do you think. Up with a funny I quite like that you're jealous you think I'm jealous. It's quite obvious you're creating this soft porn scenario with me leading Sally from the supper table up the stairs stripping down of my boxer shorts while she leans back on the pillows trembling with desire as I heave the chest of drawers singlehandedly across the room sweat pouring off my half naked body she beckons me and after some swift Rumpy promptly we bathed together soaping each other down with that nice chest 90 bubble bath finish just getting started clever trick laughing off what really happened is the imaginings of a crazed woman talking of crows terms parties David's back your mental breath groupie I thought he left broken hearted your cool indifference apparently he's been a way out an assertive less training course he missed the 1st session because he didn't know which room it was in and didn't like to ask I believe you just made that up for a laugh if only did he put his money behind yours again roots I thought of fighting to put him off because everyone farts and pull out is but it seemed. Never stopped you before so I was quite tense off of the class I could see him breathing rather heavily if you want me to have a word with them he gives me rhubarb from his allotment but he might be dangerous he's not a Buddhist and they'll get really upset if the accidently Trojan an ant and also he's physically very weak I have to open his water bottle that's because you also cave. Dating and sense you're. Actually I was quite tense all through the class because of David I'm quite a he too I think I might do what. I'm going to better idea why don't I run as a bath you've already had one birthday who's counting and what about Sally only room for 2 so you're here as I said above not a bunk over might be nice which take up a glass of wine and find out who is the 2nd time today I followed the woman upstairs to spoil it I'll bring the why. Cripes you've just had a bar I think we established there early no hot water left we could switch on the immersion heater do you think the time it heats up the moment might have passed. I didn't know we were having a moment I thought we were just having a watch. Give me a great big hug What's the magic word now. Oh I'm sorry you're right watch that's a sentence I only hear on my birthday isn't my birthday I think patience has breakup is affected just both more than we realize due to us forget about them and have an early night I've got that lovely body oil you can give me a back massage it'll make the sheets all narky free to go. Wrong. Thing in the morgue 3. Me. Already if you like it when you buy more than 3 bottles of wine they always ask you at the checkout having a party. Like 12 bottles Yes it's a reasonable question I wanted to say no this is just lost as to Tuesday did you show the loyalty card forgot I'm going to put in your key ring fine but here's the good news is I've got everything on the list with no screw ups for random substitutions she's mature chatter mouthwash Meralco meant flavor they can smoke streaky. So let's eat bread salad like I said so it is not how much she got on my system I thought Elaine was initially she came home yesterday Ok so will sunny be back for lunch measurable back till she's gone she has for good and. Moved in with the line. What did you say to her I didn't say anything to have her write years ago she thought it was past. Honey you've been crying very much while something upsets you Sally told me what really happened last night. So you know about the kiss yeah right why didn't you tell me I didn't tell you because I don't want to we have no secrets we do and this was one I wanted to keep you did keep as I had reasons for their Aunt Sally and I had a long talk after you went shopping she came down with the bags packed in the lead and told me that you had cooked a wonderful dinner being so lovely and kind last night and after a few glasses of wine she talked to move just to prove she didn't really help very much and she dropped her end and he started singing right sit for it you were laughing in there. Come home and cry it was nothing to show you. Crumpled it took its right. To tell me that she kissed you has say and you didn't kiss have back she said that I said it is it true it is true and that's the main reason why I didn't tell you about it because I didn't want you to think badly of Sally and dump her as a friend when it was obvious she was just desperately lonely and. Needed some affirmation that she was still attractive you didn't give it. Not in any sense and you stepped back and said no she was crying when she told me because you said that you loved her as a friend but it would never be anything more and that United both had. Flings in the past and been on the verge of breaking up with a break up on quite a regular basis and she said that you told her you've realized over the years the terrible risk of losing everything if you played around another possibility of ever losing me wakes you up at night and. I had to exaggerate for effect and see what happened time Peter brought him back I told her what she needed to hear you said that even if Monica Bellucci over it as often you'd say no because you don't love her you love me I'm out of sight gave a state of likely sort of mind turning down on might have Monica Goodling bloody announce I might change my mind sergeant said she felt. So. And she started to cry in front of you gave her books of tissues and a big hug and major hot chocolate. Through her birth. Parents of her a bit weird and I was one of the bout you coming home I told her I would never say anything to you because you and Sally should stay friends who were good then my work here is done. Now put the cheese in the fridge you know what you are don't you oh no we go I thought of going off lightly your choices very powerful jet . Thank you but I'd rather be Monica Baluchis own country. Conversations from a long marriage was written by John Everington could start Joanna Lumley and Roger Allen it was produced by Claire Jones and was a b.b.c. Studios production. And John and Roger will be back at the same time next week for more conversations from a long marriage that's next Wednesday at Huff past 11 the news is next but 1st a word from Polaris. Moneybox live today is about holiday nightmares what to do with that relaxing week away goes horribly wrong or is canceled at the last minute of course the news this morning that the government has said don't travel to mainland China will be a worry for anyone with a trip booked to see the great wall of the terra cotta warriors but we'll also be covering the fallout from Thomas Cook going bust and more every day holiday hassles from car hire to illness tell us yours e-mail Moneybox at b.b.c. U.k. We're on air just after 3 Thank you Paul the e-mail address again is money box at b.b.c. Dot co dot u.k. And you can join Paul and the team here on Radio 4 at 3 o'clock.

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