News, throwing up his hands after months of tepgzs with foxs opinion shows. Shep had the power to speak truth, to provide a reality check to foxs viewers who hear protrump talking points all day long. But he wont be there anymore. His last day was friday. And i think this is bigger than fox. Its a sign of whats happening in america and to america. People sorting themselves into tribes. Tuning out inconvenient information. And right now this phenomenon is most intense on the right which is why shep smiths exit is a cultural moment and why its shaking up the journalists who are left at fox. One fox reporter saying she feels like shes been hit by a bus. Another saying the news is he t heartbreaking and saying, quote, i fear things are going to get much, much worse. Look, fox has some excellent journalists including one on the ground in syria right now. The journalists are feeling squeezed by the opinion and propaganda players. Lets talk with three former faces on fox. Starting with connor powell, he was a fox correspondent for nine years. Full disclosure, hes working for cnn news source. Democratic strategist a paid contributor on shows like the five for six years. And carl cameron, who was foxs chief Political Correspondent until 2017. Thank you all for being here. Julie, what are your friends at fox telling you about this news about shep . Theyre depressed. Theyre obviously shocked. A lot of them feel like the management isnt managing. It used to be when roger ailes was here, the inner warfare would never be seen on the air. Now that shep and Tucker Carlson have gone at each other, sean hannity had gone at shep, as well, a lot of them feel theyre not going to have their backs, theyre not going to be protected by the people in charge of the network in a way that would have happened before. They are anxious. They are depressed about the fact that the person they believed was their leader and trying to really have a journalistic ethos at fox is now gone. Theyre worried about who else may be going as a result of sheps departure. Theyre not necessarily journalists. Some are opinion people who feel this is a massive, massive loss for the network. All around, the few people ive spoken to, more than a few, the number of people ive spoken to have all been very depressed about this news. Nobody that i spoke to was highfiving. Thats more on the journalist sides of fox. There are detracktators that he had at fox. They said he was only on the hour an hour a day. He wasnt that much of a leader. I wonder, connor, if you agree. How important is this moment . For those of us are paid to be journalists, he was the direction for those of us journalists. His voice didnt always make it past his own show. Some shows ignored what he reported. At least day in and day out, his voice was on the channel, and he provided a lot of direction for those of us on the ground around the world in the United States trying to be reporters. You take away his voice, you take away his voice and his team around him which is crucial to the news organization, and im not sure what youre left with. I think youre probably just left with sean hannity and Tucker Carlsons voice. Im not sure thats particularly a good thing for the United States. Right now theres no indication that the producers are leaving, though. I hope they dont leave. Theres a lot of great correspondents at fox. Its just that my impression is they feel theyre not getting on the air very much because opinion shows are taking up Mother Nature and more time. Is that fair to say, carl . You were there until trumps inauguration. Yeah, no, i think its very true that the news department, the News Division has shrunk. And there are an awful lot of really good journalists at fox newschannel. Its just that theyre vastly outnumbered by the opinion makers. And the opinion makers are more interested in playing with peoples bias than anything else. And it makes it very difficult for journalists to actually give people honest facts when the airtime is shrinking constantly. And that 3 00 hour is critical. Shep now gone, what fox has said is they are going to be a rot e rotating series of hosts. F tho if those are people like bill hemm hemmer, hosts that do news, if theyre journalists, it will be a good sign for the 3 00 hour. If its not, if its opinion mavens, that will be another big chunk of real journalism that wont exist there. Yeah, and theres other hours, the rightwing conspiracy theories. Look at Jeanine Pirros show, she had President Trump call in for a softball interview last night. There was also a leftwing Conspiracy Theory out there about shep smith, and i want to debunk it. There was a reporter in the New York Times that Rupert Murdoch had a meeting with attorney general bill barr. They did meet, but it had nothing to do with smith resigning. Smith had been thinking about this for several weeks. I want to put that to rest. I do think it speaks volumes, though, people wonder is someone pulling the strings. Julie, people do legitimately wonder about the murdochs and their role in shaping fox news and bringing it further to the right. Theres no question. I dont know how much further it could go to the right. I think there are business interests the murdochs have that the president of the United States, they can benefit from that. As a result obviously being on the side of the president , helping the president helps their business interests. I think thats a business decision that theyve made. Having said that, i think theres an object sense of leadership at fox news. When i was there, carl, when you were there, i think whatever you thought of the leadership, there was a very strong person at the helm who was able to rein a lot of this in. I think today in the absence of what, what you have are people like Tucker Carlson and sean hannity running their own thiefdoms and not allowing others airtime. Ive spoken to people who are not democrats or liberals by any stretch of the imagination unless you think that truth has a liberal bias. These are people who are facts checking the president in realtime. Theyre seeing the airtrem cut off. Theyre not seeing as much access to the air as they used to have. They a business decision the murdochs are making. Its unfortunate because the fox news audience is not served well by having uncritical views of what the president is saying. Theres no dispute about the fact that the president doesnt and unless somebody says that on foxs air, theres no way the audience would know that. Thats unfortunate. Shep was very good at that. Julie, you did sue fox for harassment and retaliation. You mention the secondives in in charge. Do you have a personal axe to grinds against them . I have no personal axe to grind. The person i mentioned is no longer there as a executive, neither of the two are there as executives anymore, so i dont. This is purely from talking to people still at fox who feel strongly that roger ailes, whom i did sue, would never have allowed this to happen. This is a compliment to roger ailes i hear that quite a bit. Yeah. I hear that quite a bit. Can i you were going to jump in . Sorry, carl, go ahead. I think one of the things thats important to remember here is that over the years, there was not a history of fox opinion hosts criticizing the journalists. And over the course of the trump administration, more and more the opinion hosts have been criticizing the journalists. And so that really pits bias against straight journalism. I think julies pretty much nailed it. Thats a huge part of what frustrates the journalists at fox news because they shouldnt be arguing with people who are there to comment on the news and completely neglect what was just reported by the journalists. And a lot of fox critics say the journalists are complicit by staying at fox. The journalists tell me theyre just trying to make the network better, trying to too the right thing. Connor, last word to you. As someone who worked with shep, how did he make you a better journalist, improve your work . I loved being on his show. His show, his entire sort of organization pushed you to give the fuller context. I think one of the things thats tough about reporting at fox is there are a lot of anchors who wanted to stay in a narrow lane and answer questions and look at a story from a very specific point of view. Shepherd always made sure you brought in the full context of a story. And so the key details didnt get lost in your reporting. Thats something that shepherd specifically did that a lot of other hosts didnt do, at least for myself and in terms of reporting overseas. He wanted a fuller context, even on the days where shep wasnt there because he was maybe off on a friday during the summer, his producers and team there always pushed you to give the full context. Again, thats something that i think will be lost long term with his leaving fox is im not sure there are that many reporters who are willing to give the fuller context unless theyre pushed by an anchor to do so. Its easy to get time on fox if you kow the conservative line tow the conservative line in terms of reporting. A cultural moment. Youre describing why this is significant. Thank you so much for being here. New to come, whats next fshep. And on deck, a look at how much trouble President Trump is in. Douglas brinkley, Sam Donaldson standing by. Well be right back. I was on the fence about changing from a manual to an electric toothbrush. 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They say, yes, we Fact Check Trump sometimes. As one staffer said to me, almost none of us have the power that shep had. So as for shep, he had a noncompete clause which means he cannot join another network right away. His spokesman says, devoquote, s not retiring. Joining me, writers, politics writer for salon. And david zerwick standing by. Amanda, whats your reaction to the news about shep . Theres a paradox involved here. Fox viewers didnt like shep. He had the lowest rated show on the daytime lineup. Yeah. I think that shows that one of the biggest problems facing fox news News Division and any effort to get news out to rightwing america for lack of a better term, is that they dont want to hear it. I think that were facing audiences that are rejecting the truth for ideological reasons. They prefer donald trump and his lies, they prefer donald trump and his, you know, lying twitter feed, and they like fox news best when it is echoing donald trump and his dishonesty. And viewers are going to say youre just being a smug liberal saying that. Whats your proof . Like you said, sheps show was the lowest rated show on fox news. Meanwhile, Tucker Carlsons is pulling millions of viewers a night. And you know, tucker plays fast and loose with the facts. I think its a fair thing to see. You know i was watching one of trumps rallies live on fox. It was striking to look at trumps storytelling skills. I understand that most of the story hes telling is nonsense, to put it one way. But hes selling a really appealing story about fighting the deep state, about fighting the democrats. And i wonder if political pundits sometimes underestimate the storytelling power that both trump and fox have. Yeah. I mean, i think that its hard for a lot of people that are not in that rightwing bubble to understand trumps power over people because his story doesnt make sense to us. But i think what youre seeing is a lot of White Conservative people who used to be the masters of the universe in this country, who used to control this country legally, politically, businesswise, culturally, and now are starting to see that hedge money talented. And Donald Trump Tells them a story about how theyre under assault by a bunch of villainous elites instead of the truth which is that their power is waning in the face of growing diversity. Yeah. Lets bring in david zerwick in washington. Hes been talking about the shep news and how it relates to President Trump, as well. President trump criticized shep. He would tweet against shep. The president seems always to promote the opinion shows on fox and attack the News Division. For example, he attacked that fox poll this week that showed impeachment getting a majority support among americans. David, your reaction . Well, one of the things is, you know, with trump doing that, it really can wear you down. I mean, some of your reporting, you talked about him, about shep just wanting to move on. Maybe being tired of this. You know, i heard some of that from megyn kelly when trump went after her on social media. She was a star at fox at that time, and then of course left. It creates it takes any sense of joy out of the business. When you have that its not just the president. The president is driving many in the fox base to be after you constantly on social media. Yes, yes. Thats psychologically a problem. And you know i dont blame shep one bit for walking away from this if he can, you know, and obviously he can afford to do it with the contracts hes had the last few years 15 million. Yeah. Yeah. Really thats one of the ways fox management getting into bed with trump hurts the network long term. This is a severe blow to its credibility when you lose shep. Ill tell you something else, we havent that hasnt been much discussed is it was fox likes to say, oh, during the day its all news, at night its opinion, blah, blah, blah. It isnt all news during the day. A lot of those shows, those news shows, look like news shows, but theyre stacked with people who replicate the talking points of the white house or rightwing point of view. He didnt do that. Maybe it was because he was a managing editor, but his show didnt have rightwing ringers on it giving talking points. And if they did, he went after them. Thats another huge loss i think to fox on this. We need more of that on the air, not less. All right. Amanda, thank you. David, please stick around. Quick break as we pivot to the impeachment probe thats going on. I want to ask what the press needs to learn from history. Douglas brinkley and Sam Donaldson are next. Orlando isnt just the theme park capital of the world, it also has the highest growth in manufacturing jobs in the us. 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Plus get instant access to your teams with the power of your voice. Thats simple, easy, awesome. Say Nhl Center Ice into your voice remote to upgrade for a great low price, or go online today. Hey, im brian stelter. Welcome back. News outlets are trying to explain all the threads of the impeachment inquiry by coming one diagrams, flow charts, maps, you name it. Weve been creating faqs and explainers and q as. Weve been launching new newsletters and podcasts. There is certainly an appetite for news right now, but not everybody is equally hungry. Heres the Washington Post noting a remarkable finding from a new kquinnipiac poll, it says people are paying a lot of attention to the impeachment probe were more likely to say they want trump impeached and removed. But, quote, those paying less attention were less likely to say they support impeachment. Thats interesting. Here to help us break it down is cnn president ial historian Douglas Brinkley and legendary journalist Sam Donaldson who was abcs main watergate correspondent and was a White House Correspondent during clintons impeachment. Sam, nixon, clinton, trump, whats different this time around . Well, its not the same thing in the sense that the press job is to point out what people say accurately, but if they say things that are not true and the press knows theyre not true, not because of our opinions but because we have facts, you present the facts on the other side. And trump has been called out repeatedly because he repeatedly misstates the facts. I think thats what we need to do now. And dont be afraid of fox. Dont be afraid of the people who support President Trump no matter what the facts are. Theyre either willfully ignorant about them or know about them but dont care. We cant do anything for them except continue to do the job of the press. When nixon resigned, 24 of the American Public said they still liked him, he was still a great president. Theres always been this strain of american life. But they dont represent the country. If in trump head 30 , 31 of a strong base, we dont know exactly, but thats not the country. The other 70 are out there. When i go to parties or elsewhere and people say, oh, hes going to be reelected, i mean, look at those rallies, look at the people, the fervor and all of the things he says, they love it, treasonous nancy pelosi and all this i say, why his base loves it. The base is not the country, and its not going to run the country. What youre saying reminds me of what weve been seeing all week long. Journalists have been trying to get republicans on the record about where they stand, about whether trumps conduct is acceptable or not. And douglas, we need to know those answers. Absolutely. I think the press has been amazing this week just following doggedly gop lawmakers and asking them what do you think about this, is it okay for an american president to encourage a foreign power to interfere in our domestic electoral system . And many of them wont answer. They hem and haw, and thats not going to look good in history. I think the answer is im not for impeachment, im backing donald trump, but i was wrong it was wrong for him to have spoken as he did to the ukrainian president. Alas, its good that journalists have to keep pushing the republicans to go on the record right now, just like they did during the watergate era. And are you seeing lots of patriotic republicans coming forward . Speaking out . What are you seeing . Its mitt romney and a lot of people that are afraid to tell the truth right now on what they really feel. The republicans are in hiding mode. Theyre trying to figure out how to play this right now. Theyre so worried about Donald Trumps anger and it being tweeted about hes been effective at showing i will punish you if you break ranks with me in any way, shape, or form. Whats interesting is the role Mitch Mcconnells plying here and donald trump kind of unra l unraveli unraveling, constantly needing to call Mitch Mcconnell for reassurance. Trump obviously knows that congress is going to move forward eventually here and impeach him. But he has the backstop of the senate and can live for another day. After all, brian, bill clinton probably could have won the election in 2000 even though he was impeached in 1998. And Andrew Johnson left in the 1860s to go back to tennessee as an impeached president but ran for the u. S. Senate and won. Thats to sams point that nixon had a fan base. Trump still will have his fan base even if hes wearing the eye. Sam, youve said you think this is a more dangerous time than the nixon years. Do you think the press is making mistakes . Are we accurately conveying how dangerous it is . Well, yes, the press makes mistakes. Ive made mistakes. You try correct them. But you call out things that are not true because you have the facts. And you present them to the American Public. Now, Mitch Mcconnell is in a tight race, tighter than he thought, in kentucky. And hes watching the polls, and hes watching the people that he thinks are going to support him. Im going to tell you something, if the 71 rather, 51 polled that fox put on that said the impeachment anger is rising against trump, if it continues, Mitch Mcconnell will throw him over. Republicans will think weve been conned, how could we be fooled . Im telling you something, if Public Opinion is strongly for the impeachment and the conviction of President Trump, he will be convicted in the senate with the republican help. So you listen to the trump rallies, you think there is not representative of all of america. You think its important for us to see that. No, the trump rallies are trumps his strong supporters. I mean, lock her up, i mean, all the things he says, all the vicious, mean things he says, they love it. There are these people in this country, theyre good americans otherwise. Theyll probably give you the shirt off their back, theyll help you if you need, but they have this fixation. They want to return this country to the White Christian country that they believe it should be again. They dont want the diversity, and they follow him for this, but theyre not the country. We are a we are good and strong because of that, and were going to come back to that, i assure you. I like the optimism, sam. Thank you. Sam donaldson, Douglas Brinkley, thank you for being here. We have a lot more coming up including a really important fact check. Trump spreading false hoodses about u. S. Troops in syria. Spokesman fraudsters theyre out to get your medicare number so they can bill fake claims in your good name. Dont give them that chance. Fraudster just calling to confirm your medicare number. Do you have your card available . Spokesman for example, if a caller says theyre from medicare, watch out. Its probably a scam. Dont give out your card number. And always check your claim statements for errors. Report fraudulent charges to 1800medicare. Guard your card. Learn more at medicare. Gov fraud. Till he signed up for Unitedhealthcare Medicare advantage. bold music now, its like he has his own health entourage. He gets medicares largest healthcare network, a free gym membership, vision, dental and more. Theres so much to take advantage of. Cant wait till im 65. A few more chairs, please. Unitedhealthcare Medicare Advantage plans, including the only plans with the aarp name. Free dental care and eye exams, and free designer eyewear. Go ahead, take advantage. Earlier this week President Trump maded following comments to reporters about the deteriorating situation in syria. Look, we have no soldiers in syria. Weve won. We beat isis, and we beat them badly and decisively. We have no soldiers. We have no soldiers in syria. Now, cnns team fact checked this and said the United States still has about 1,000 soldiers in syria. The president of the United States getting those facts wrong. Well, now the situation in Northern Syria is deteriorating rapidly. In the words of jim sciutto, turkey has been given free reign by President Trump to slaughter kurdish fighters who are loyal u. S. Allies. The president is being widely criticized right now, and the situation as it gets worse is causing the u. S. To take action. Just today, the u. S. Defense secretary is saying that we are preparing to evacuate a thousand troops, those 1,000 troops that President Trump said werent there. Watch. I spoke with the president last night. After discussions with the rest of the National Security team, he directed that we begin a deliberate withdrawal of forces from Northern Syria. What forces . Again, trump said this on thursday we have no soldiers in syria. Look, he was wrong, i get it. Maybe he just misspoke, maybe he was innocent. If so, that is also part of the problem. Joining me to discuss this is peter wenner, v. P. Of the ethics and Public Policy center and author of the death of politics how to heal our tried respect after trump. And peter, im pulling out a specific onetime misstatement by the president. To make a larger point which is that, you know, as youve written, trumps words are poison. He doesnt seem to be well. This is a situation where life and death stakes are very clear in syria, and yet we dont know what to believe from the president. Well, thats right. Thats a problem when a president s going out and lying all the time and getting his facts wrong all the time. Sometimes you cant tell which is which is which. But the bottom line is the same. And this is a man who has no interest in governing, no interest in reality, no interest in the the state of the world. And whats going on now in syria is extraordinary. And the radiating effects, the Collateral Damage of this is going to be tremendous. Theres a humanitarian cost. Were seeing a massacre, we may see a genocide of the kurds who are such terrific allies. Really intrepid allies of ours. Isis prisoners are going to be released. The regions going to be destabilized. Americas trust worthiness is is being blown apart. So this is really, really bad. But it goes to a core problem with donald trump which is hes not well, and hes not hes not equipped to be president of the United States. But he is. James mattis today on meet the press warned about isis returning. The reports about isislinked fighters breaking out of prisons in Northern Syria. He said if we dont keep the pressure on, then isis will resurge, its absolute a given that they will come back. This is someone who worked for President Trump. Yeah. I mean, this is almost a mathematical equation. The kurds were the ones who were watching over the prisons of the isis prisoners. Now theyre under assault by the turks. So of course the isis prisoners are being released. Theyre being released even as we speak. Its going to happen more. Probably in the range of 8,000, 10,000, 12,000 isis prisoners. There are going to be tremendous human consequences to that. Theres going to be blood because of this, lives are going to be lost because of it. And again, for no reason. Donald trump didnt get anything. It was just that he had a phone call with an authoritarian dictator who says jump and trump says how high. He says hes ending the endless wars, while at the same time sending 2,000 more troops to saudi arabia. Let me talk about your columns where you say trump is not well. This is a conversation thats gingerly head on television most of the time. Theres still people, still a lot of tiptoeing going on about the president s behavior, his misbehavior. How does the press need to cover this while still being fair . I do think they have to cover it, and fairness requires making an objective assessment of the facts and the reality of things and covering it. This idea that you do not cover Donald Trumps psychological and emotional state strikes me as bizarre. Theres more to a president than what he says hes going to check the policy boxes. We make judgments about wisdom and prunes and character prudence and character. Of course we should make a judgment on a psychological state. Hes not well, he has a disordered personality. Thats almost beyond the point of dispute to any objective individual. Are we supposed to not how do you think Trump Supporters see through it . How do they excuse it t . Its a complicated thing because were so tribalistic today, things are so polarized that anybody that that criticizes trump, they just reflexively defend him because they feel like the enemys of trump are their enemies, and that the critics of trump have contempt for them. In many cases theyre right. They go into their tribalistic enclaves and decide to protect him. Look, ive had countless conversations with Trump Supporters you know, ive been a lifelong republican, ive served in three republican administrations. So i have a lot of contact. A lot of my conversations are to hear, listen to people, see where theyre coming from. Yeah. Its pretty extraordinary. It is almost like a hermetically sealed world. And facts are like b. B. S, they just bounce off of a brick wall. They just dont they dont penetrate i think one of the reasons they dont penetrate is theres something called the psychology of accommodation which is people decided early on for a variety of reasons to accommodate themselves to donald trump. I think some of them thinking that things would get better. That he would grow in office, that he would be surrounded by good people. Hes gotten worse. But having made that accommodation early on, they didnt feel like they could get off. Now its not just a defense of trump, its a defense of their defense of trump. To indict him is to indict themselves and to indict their own judgment. Thats hard for any human being. And Trump Supporters are not doing it. They they will defend him, you know, regardless of what happens come hell or high water. Peter, thanks for being here. Check out peters column in the New York Times and the atlant atlantic. Weve been talking about trumps enemies. I think were going to hear more from them on tuesday. The president portrays democrats as his enemies. The democrats are going to be on stage for this debate. Tuesday night, a cnn New York Times debate in ohio, tuesday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern time on cnn. Up next, ronan farrows book catch and kill is out on tuesday. Already theres new controversy at nbc as a result. Well talk about what it means for the network right after a quick break. Biopharmaceutical researchers. Pursuing lifechanging cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs. Like a way to fight cancer by arming a patients own tcells. Because its not just about the next breakthrough. Its all the ones after that. This book catch and kill is the numberone seller on amazon, and its not even out until tuesday. Theres a lot of interest in preorders because ronan farrow has a lot of bombshells in this book. Its called catch and kill lies, spy, and a conspiracy to protect predators. He describes reporting on Harvey Weinstein and how nbc try today to shut him down over misconduct over the years. He suggests in the book that weinstein used his knowledge of matt lauers behavior as leverage with the network. Heres what both sides are saying farrow says that nbc committed a, quote, corporate coverup. His reporting on weinstein was shut down for inappropriate reasons. Farrow says the networks secrets weighed on the judgments. Farrow says that weinstein claimed to have a deal with nbc executives, and farrow says some of those executives have skeletons in their own closets, inappropriate behavior in their own pasts. Now heres what nbc says they say there was no deal with weinstein. They say that would be ridiculous and unethical. They say farrows reporting did not meet the standards for broadcast, and thats why they let him walk over to the new yorker with it. They say farrow did not have a single oncamera, ontherecord interview with a weinstein accuser. They say the book uses a variety of tactics to paint a fundamentally untrue picture, and they also say theyve cleaned up the house. They say in the past two years we have taken significant steps to improve our culture. Farrow has a lot in this book including the first ontherecord interview with the woman who said she was raped by matt lauer in 2014 which lauer firmly denies. She says the incident derailed her life. Here to size up whats going on is new york magazines Senior Correspondent and cnn contributor erin carmone, and youve been talking about cbs and the other outlets. What do you make of nbcs handling of this . Well, you know, i have likened the experience of both reporting on Sexual Harassment and assault and learning from other reporters the kind of things that are happening behind closed doors. To the movie get out, to the precease moment where allison williams, who the character has seen dangle the keys, weve dean sueplicitiy or the attitudes that underpin Sexual Harassment and assault. My question and i worked at nbc, and theres a lot of people i really respect there. I think that they deserve to know exactly what knew what when. They deserve accountability. There was never an independent investigation at nbc, in contrast to cbs which i reported on which hired a law firm to do an independent investigation. Wasnt a perfect process, but you can see at cbs there are many new faces skiering the ship. At nbc, we have yet to have a full accounting. And ronan farrow is now pulling back the curtain to give us a sense of how much these executives were themselves participating in this system that commodityfied young female journalists, looked another way while matt lauer took advantage of them. These were young women who were showing up because they wanted to be journalists, because they wanted to do the job. And they deserve better, too. Theres always been questions about who knew what when at nbc about lauer. The Network Always says there was never a formal complaint. Heres andy lacks statement from this week saying that when they learned what matt lauer had allegedly done in 2014, he was fired within 24 hours. The statement says, he says here, any suggestion that we tried to cover up any aspect of lauers conduct is absolutely false and offensive. David, your reaction . I love it when they say its offensive. Brian, i never bought for not a second did i buy that they didnt know what was going on with matt lauer. He was making a lot of money in the most important day part. The notion just voiced that they looked the other way is the kindest thing that you can say about him. And now after farrows book about these incidents, i laugh in their face when they tell me how committed they are to to a diverse workplace and protecting women who come into the workplace. There is outrageous. You know this is outrageous. You know, the account of the way look, in fairness to nbc, let me say this when you are doing a story, when you know powerful people are going to come at you with everything you have, sometimes a young reporter, sometimes any reporter thinks theyre slow walk it when theyre just being careful. But this went way beyond it. He took what they told him was unacceptable after they told him and his producer to stop reporting. He took it over to the new yorker and it won a pulitzer prize. How do they keep doing the Crisis Management talk in the wake of that . As journalists we know exactly what that it. Their claim is he came up with new sources once he arrived at the new yorker. Heres what farrow said about the weinstein reporting at nbc and why maybe it was tabled by the network. He says there was flow doubt that the allegations against lauer and nbcs wider use of nondisclosures with women who experienced harassment were under threat of exposure during our reporting. He says, that precarious culture of secrecy made nbc more vulnerable to weinsteins intimidation and enticement. We know weinstein was badgering the network, trying to get the story shut down. Thats been very clear. Nbc says that didnt matter, though. The Pressure Campaign didnt matter. Here whats interesting here, farrows suggesting maybe it was nbcs own secrets that made the network a little bit nervous here. Right. I mean, it would appear that they were throwing stones from a matt lauer glass house. You know what i think is really interesting here, brian, here we are two years later. The today show has female cohosts leading the way, right. Its doing just fine. This was actually an executive suite delusion that matt lauer was so valuable that they had to look the other way as he abused his power in the work force. Look at how great the show is doing without him. And i think we really need to step back. You know, my colleague, rebecca traceter, has written brillia brilliantly theyre covering allegations of Sexual Assault at the supreme court, theyre covering female president ial candidates. What does it mean that these are their attitudes toward women, that theyre disposabldisposable commodities, they are to be demeaned. I think the second reckoning has to be who knew what when, and there has ton understa be under that this is not the individual behavior but all these news narratives are being shaped by men. I dont think that process is over by any means. He doesnt have a smoking gun that proves that, like, for example, nbc was blackmailed by weinstein . There isnt that smoking gun, there is just an accumulation of a lot of different pieces of evidence. Thats what hell be arguing as he does sbrirz interviews in thg week. Last word . We know they shut down that reporting. The biggest thing about this book historically is its a granular look at what it takes when you take on patriarchy. The women are coming out and the men are trying not to be held to this reckoning, and mia farrow is in the middle of it. Someone just got up one day, and said, oh, lets stop patriarchy. These women are in this battle and ronan farrow told his story. Do you know what it takes to bring these guys down . Weinstein, nbc. What was just said about the men shaping the narratives, thats absolutely true. The powerful shape the narratives and he took them on and told his narrative and these womens narratives so well that theyre shaking in their boots right now. David, erin, thank you. Everybody read our full coverage of this book at reliablesources. Com. 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