Transcripts For CNNW Situation Room With Wolf Blitzer 20180517

Youre in the situation room. President trump trying to tempt kim jongun to keep the summit meeting, the summit date with the north Korean Leader before it is cancelled. The president promising unspecified protections that he said would make kim jongun feel very happy. Well talk about that and more with congressman jim heinz. Our correspondents and analysts are standing by. First, lets go to jeff zeleny who has the latest developments for us. Jeff . Reporter wolf, good evening. Theres no question President Trump wants to make this summit in singapore next month happen. No question at all. The white house is indeed making plans behind the scenes for it to happen. We heard from the president the first time talking about tempering expectations he was raising for weeks. We heard him place blame on north korea if it falls through, it is their fault, not his. Best thing he could do is make a deal. Reporter President Trump trying to keep the summit with kim jongun alive, urging the north korean against backing away from landmark Nuclear Talks in singapore. Theyre willing to do a lot, he is willing to do a lot also, i think well have a good relationship, assuming we have the meeting and something comes of it, and he will get protections that are very strong. Reporter the president not saying what protections he is prepared to offer north korea if they abandon the nuclear program. John bolton standing a few feet away from the oval office, suggested libya could serve as a template to zarm north korea. Looking at the libya model of 2003, 2004. Reporter that comment angered pyongyang, considering gadhafi was killed in 2011. You look at that model with gadhafi, that was a total did he say did he say medication. I think kim jongun will be very happy. I really believe he will be very happy. Reporter a measured response to north koreas threat to call off next months historic meeting, suggesting everything is on track. We may have the meeting, may not have the meeting, if we dont have it, that will be very interesting. Well see what happens. Reporter but the president also wondering whether china and broader trade dispute is behind north koreas abrupt decision to move the goalpost for talks. I have a feeling, however, that for various reasons, maybe including trade because theyve never had this problem before, china never had this problem with us, it could very well be that he is influencing kim jongun. Well see what happens. Meaning the president of china, president xi could be influencing kim jongun. Reporter the president less interested in taking questions about the Russian Investigation. Cancelling a formal press conference with the nato secretary general as he visited the white house. On the one Year Anniversary of special Counsel Robert Mueller take the reigns of the russia probe, the president had plenty to say on twitter, marking the second year of the greatest witch hunt in american history. At the white house briefing, we asked press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders about that message. The president marked the one Year Anniversary of the Mueller Investigation, saying it is disgusting, illegal, unwarranted and a witch hunt. The fbi director said yesterday it is not a witchhunt. Why does the white house believe it is a witch hunt. The president knows there was no collusion in the campaign and he has been quite clear about this. It has gone on over a year. They found no evidence of collusion. And still strongly believe it is a witchhunt. Reporter Sarah Sanders saying they found no evidence of collusion simply is not true. Thats been a sound track of the white house, that theres been no collusion, no obstruction of justice. In fact, we dont know the answer to the question, if there has or hasnt been. Thats what the special counsel investigation is all about. But wolf, theres still one question here at the white house tonight that will speak to how far this investigation is going. That is if the president will sit down with bob mueller. He says he wants to, his lawyers do not. See how it ends up. Jeff zeleny, thank you. More on the special counsel russia probe, now one year old. Sarah murray joins us. Sarah, clearly the Investigation Continues tonight. Absolutely. As much as the president s allies may want it to end, there isnt any sign it is slowing down. In fact, now at least one federal judge is getting a peek at how broad the scope of muellers mandate is. A year into the special counsels russia probe, Robert Mueller filing an unredacted version of this memo in federal court, revealing just how broad his mandate is after the federal judge overseeing charges against former Trump Campaign chairman Paul Manafort demanded to see the document. Trumps legal team is trying other maneuvers to put pressure on the special counsel, like Rudy Guiliani saying the special Counsel Robert Muellers team concluded it cant indict a sitting president. All they can do is write a report. How bad that is, we can write too. Telling cnn they cant indict, at least they acknowledged that to us after some battling. That conclusion from the special counsel likely based on long standing Justice Department guidelines, not assessment of evidence of wrongdoing that mueller connected. Guiliani is laying ground work for the proposition that the president because he cant be indicted doesnt have to testify. I dont think thats legally correct. The argument comes amid a standoff with muellers team over whether the president should sit for voluntary interview. Were demanding from him, tell us what you have to get in interview that you dont already have. At the one year mark, special counsel team brought charges against 22 people and companies, five guilty pleas, one person was sentenced. A number of the charges tied to russias interference in the 2016 president ial election, but so far none of them extended to collusion between Trump Associates and the russians. Despite the protests from the trump team. About time to get the darn thing over with. About time to say enough. We have tortured this president enough. Theres little sign the investigation is wrapping up. Early this morning, mueller arrived at his nondescript Government Office building. The team calls in witnesses covertly. Inside, witnesses are questioned in rooms with mismatched furniture. Michael caputo that met with the special counsel team in may says it is a High Pressure environment with few frills. It is a nondescript ugly Government Office with a bunch of locks on the door. Furniture is second and thirdhand. Theyre all business over there. Theyre not looking for any luxury. Americans have conflicting views about the Mueller Probe and legitimacy of it. But theyre united on one point in cnn apology, that is they believe mueller should issue a full report and it should be public regardless what he finds. Stick around. Our Crime Reporter is with us. Despite what the president is saying and what Rudy Guiliani is saying, the investigation of Robert Mueller continues full speed ahead. And no sign it is going to end anytime soon. I think people forget, those of us covering this forget how complex the investigation has been. The type of information it involves. Theres all sorts of sensitive, top secret information, three co coop ray ters that he is dealing with. We forget the Larger Mission here, what mueller has been doing is looking at what the russians have done. Yes, theres a component that involves the president and people that work for the president , but theres an entire other concern here, and that is the russians and how they interfered. The money that flowed perhaps into the campaign through straw donors. We have done a lot of reporting on that, oligarchs questioned. Theres so much we dont know. And really, wolf, we forget the number of people that perhaps may be involved and get pulled into this investigation. And then just last week a social media kind of consultant was subpoenaed to appear before the special counsel. That indicates that the special counsel is not even done interviewing witnesses and bringing witnesses before the grand jury. And sarah, to the point, the mueller team have been very busy in court this week. Right. Theres plenty of court activity. Paul manafort is still dealing with charges in two different courtrooms, thats been playing out. He is still saying he is going to trial. Weve seen a Russian Company playing hard ball with the mueller team, so as part of that battle, were getting more information about the extent of the social Media Information muellers team pulled together, 1. 5 to 2 ter a bites, hundreds of social media accounts in russian part of the indictments brought against 13 russian officials as well as a number of companies, and as he pointed out, we have seen an indictment, not indictment, a subpoena for roger stones former social media consultant. It is clear theyre moving ahead in a lot of different avenues. I think the other point to the discussion about the scope of the investigation is it is not abnormal for an investigation thats this complicated, for one that involves potentially White Collar Crime to stretch beyond a year mark. Weve seen that in past investigations. Thats an important point indeed. The guiliani strategy right now, what is it when he tells reporters, including our own dana bash that mueller informed them a sitting president cant be indicted. Theres a lot of noise and we all when guiliani says something, we perhaps dont always take it at face value, but it is clear that he is in communications with the mueller team and that theyve given him some indication that the president cant be indicted, that mueller, he anticipates mueller will follow doj guidelines. The issue here goes really beyond the president. Look, for mueller and for those investigators, trump is potentially a witness here as well in that he may have information that mueller wants just as a witness. Keep in mind, there were people part of the campaign that are facing trial, Paul Manafort, but there are other people still under investigation, and trump could provide key information. And also trump can provide information on even his contacts with russians, way before he ran for president. Time in moscow during the Miss Universe pageant, all of that mueller would want to talk to the president about and would need to talk to the president about to finish their investigation. In the end, we anticipate from everything were hearing that there will be a report from the mueller team that will go to congress and well see what that says. This now, guiliani strategy by all sort of appearances is theres a lot of noise, a lot of distraction, and also stalling. But really this investigation in terms of the president cant come to an end until decision is made about whether or not he is talking to them. Robert mueller says it has no impact on him and his team. Theyre moving forward. Thanks very much. Lets dig deeper with senior legal analyst, former u. S. Attorney who knows bob mueller, worked with him on several cases. Thanks so much for joining us. Sure. Big picture right now. What stands out to you at this one year mark . All sorts of things stand out, the fact that he was apointed appointed a year ago, they have indicted people, have guilty pleas from a number of people, have investigations we probably dont know about. At each Inflection Point in this case, i and others have come onto the show unaware certain people are under investigation, unaware certain people were about to be indicted or plead guilty. Whats interesting is the kind of things were talking about that are public and that are unfolding in courtrooms in both the Eastern District of virginia and district of columbia. Whats more interesting to me given the reporting swirling around about things relating to russia and other associates of donald trump and other former employees of donald trump is how many things are yet to come. This is not coming to a stop any time soon. It strikes me how quickly they have done so much, typically you have cases of teams of people working securities fraud or Money Laundering cases or public corruption cases, they have a big docket, lots of things going on. Can take two, three, four years for large cases to be brought to an end. The fact is not that theyre going slow but going fairly quickly because they have clean dockets. Look at the numbers, the length and scope of muellers probe. How does this compare progress he is making as you point out to similar investigations lets say white water or watergate for that matter . Your chart answers the question. It is proceeding pretty quickly. If you judge it against complex white collar cases that involve all sorts of types of charges and evidence located in different countries, and evidence which has to be declassified in lots of different places, coming from lots of different agencies, it is impressive how fast theyve gone. Certainly is. Guiliani seems to be also suggesting if a president cant be indicted, also cant be compelled to testify. Anxious for your thoughts on that. Just because guiliani says something doesnt make it false, doesnt make it true as we discovered in the last few weeks. He has a reasonable argument. It doesnt come up that much. It has come up a couple times. Last time i believe it came up, ken starr who was independent counsel thought he had the power to issue subpoena to sitting president of the united states, and as often happens in these kinds of push and pull situations, they have an argument about it, and the president decided for various reasons, including reputation i presume, that he would testify voluntarily, so the subpoena wiwas withdrawn. At the time it was issued, he believed it was lawful to do so. They didnt end up fighting about it end of the day, it was better for all sides for the testimony to be voluntary. That could be whats going on here. It is not a crazy argument, given the fact the president cant be indicted under prevailing Justice Department poli policy. But thats not decided and thats not true. Does the fact guiliani is disclosing this information, doing a lot of interviews suggest some sort of Public Relations strategy as opposed to a narrow legal strategy . I have not seen any discernable smart Public Relations strategy on the part of the president s lawyer, Rudy Guiliani, i hate to say, havent been able to discern any particular legal strategy either. So im going to stay out of that thicket. Robert mueller could suggest special exemption from the Deputy Attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, if he believes extraordinary circumstances merit an actual indictment of a sitting president. How would that process work, how high would the bar need to be . Weve never seen that before, so i find that far fetched and unlikely. I said from the beginning, i think others have said the same, even if theres strong evidence of a crime on the part of the president of the united states, i dont believe bob mueller would bring an indictment because of the prevailing office of Legal Counsel opinion in the Justice Department. There are some arguments. A lot of legal questions that dont come up so often. So there are divided opinions. Some things people feel unanimous about, some are split down the middle. This one, the balance of opinion is on the side that the sitting president cant be indicted. I think it would be odd and unusual and thrust the country, not everyone likes to hear this for trump, the law is the law. I think for bob mueller, given how conservative he is, although he is aggressive, the idea of hanging your hat on some minority legal view in the face of the world watching and everyone wanting to feel confidence and faith in the final decision thats being made, i dont see that happening. Whether or not theres a mechanism to do it, i dont see it happening. At the same time, mueller has given a federal judge the unredacted version of the memo, written by the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, outlining his authority to investigate Russian Election interference and any potential ties to the Trump Campaign. That memo was requested by the judge overseeing Paul Manaforts trial in virginia. He is weighing a request for manafort to throw out charges. Whats your analysis of this disclosure . Couple things happened the last few weeks. First you recall and viewers recall there was a Court Proceeding Eastern District of virginia judge, that youre referring to, excoriated the special counsels office, said no one is above the law, general statement most agree with, no one has unfettered power. Didnt seem to understand the facts of the case and understand that Rod Rosenstein was overseeing the matter and was not recused, but was unhappy with all of the information he was getting, so he sought more information. Meantime, as people might appreciate and remember, theres another case pending against Paul Manafort in the district of columbia. Two Different Cases pending. The judge in that case rejected similar claims for dismissal of the indictment on the ground that they do have the power, things theyre investigating, things they charged Paul Manafort with arose from the investigation, are fully within the special counsels authorities and powers are as given by Rod Rosenstein. So i presume that notwithstanding the rebuke of the judge in Eastern District of virginia gave the special counsels office, once he sees the other information and looks more closely at the law, he will come to the same decision as the judge in district of columbia. I want to get your thoughts on the president on the First Anniversary of the Mueller Investigation. He had three separate tweets. Give you a couple of sentences from each one. He called this disgusting, illegal, unwarranted, witchhunt, thats what he said the Mueller Investigation is. He also says congratulations, america, we are now in the second year of the greatest witchhunt in american history. This despite the fact that the fbi director yesterday, the man he appointed to the fbi says there was no witchhunt, Christoph Christoph Christoph Christopher kray. Word seems to be coming out the obama fbi spied on the Trump Campaign with an embedded informant. Give your reaction to those kinds of words in the three separate tweets. He likes to tweet, get angry in tweets. Maybe he is not busy enough from time to time. Obviously the investigation is warranted. It is not disgusting. It was launched by people he hired and put in place, that he has lauded previously. It has yielded results. It will likely yield more results. The tweets are the tweets. It is the kinds of thing thats been happening when people that are investigated that have a bull horn and bully pulpit like to say witch hunt. If you had a dime for every time people said that, you would be a wealthy man, maybe not as wealthy as you, wolf, fairly wealthy man. I forgot the final question. The final three, word seems to be coming out the obama fbi spied on the Trump Campaign with an embedded informant. Look, i dont know what the facts are relating to that. Its a little odd to suggest that something untoward happened and how you can defend yourself by saying there was enough probable cause and suspicion of criminal activity in your campaign that people went to the step of investigating it by having someone undercover in the campaign, if thats true. I dont know how thats a defense. Thats in many ways a highly incriminating thing to have happened, unless it happened corruptly which i guess is his premise. Knowing the people i know and how these things operate, what a high bar you would have to have to do something extraordinary like that, i think it is more problematic for the president than it is defense. Thanks as usual. Thank you. Just ahead, one year into the Mueller Probe, is it time for it to come to an end . I speak live with a key member of the house intelligence committee. And why a whistleblower leaked Michael Cohens financial records. I talk with the new yorker magazines ronan farrow about his exclusive new reporting. This is a tomato you can track from farm, to pot, to jar, to table. And serve with confidence that its safe. This is a diamond you can follow from mine to finger, and trust it never fell into the wrong hands. This is a shipment transferred two hundred times, transparently tracked from port to port. This is the ibm blockchain, built for smarter business. Built to run on the ibm cloud. This is the ibm blockchain, built for smarter business. 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Lets get more from democratic congressman jim heinz of connecticut, member of the house intelligence committee. Congressman, the president and his team say one year of muellers probe is enough, that it hasnt produced definitive evidence of collusion or corruption. He needs to wrap it up. How do you see it . The president like anybody else being investigated doesnt get to decide when investigations of their behavior are up. Look, by any other standard the many benghazi investigations we had here, i dont mean to associate the two, because the benghazi investigation produced no indictments, no cooperating witness, produced nothing, that went on three times as long as the Mueller Investigation has gone on. Look, the fact of the matter is that they are still working. The president of all people should want the investigation to conclude so that if it is as he says it is, there was no collusion, so that mueller, not him, because of course he lost credibility on this issue, mueller comes out, says there was no collusion. Unless the investigators are allowed to arrive at that conclusion because they do the investigation on their own pace and correctly, there will always be a cloud over this presidency. So i am puzzled by the president s behavior, trying to do his best to stop and shut down the investigation. The president s lawyer, Rudy Guiliani, says he received assurances from the mueller team a sitting president cant be indicted. Guiliani is implying if a president cant be indicted, he also capital nt be subpoenaed compelled to testify. Should that be the standard . Thats just not true, at least the part about the subpoena. We never had a situation a sitting president was indicted. Most legal minds would tell you theres a different remedy where the president is concerned, and thats impeachment per the constitution. Interesting but academic debate. Were not there yet. The question whether a president condition subpoenas or compelled to participate in an investigation, Rudy Guiliani is just plain wrong. Nixon was ordered as part of investigation to turn over tapes. There was no doubt about that. They said no, youre going to participate in this investigation, youre going to turn over the tapes. And president bill clinton was ordered to be deposed in the starr investigation. So the idea the president cannot be compelled to participate in an investigation is just not true. Mueller could request whats described as special exemption from the Deputy Attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, and ask for an indictment due to what are described as extraordinary circumstances. What should be the bar for such a request . I am hesitant to follow Rudy Guilianis legal reasoning and Public Affairs game that he is playing, trying to as this administration has for a long time raise ancillary issues, create a lot of mud in the water so we lose sight of the key thing, which is that the investigation must proceed. Lets not talk indictments until we get through the investigation. Yes, lets talk about subpoenas, if it is Rudy Guilianis position that the president cannot be compelled to provide testimony or otherwise cooperate, he has to explain to us why courts decided that nixon did and clinton did that somehow he has a theory this president does not. Guiliani also seems to be moving the goalpost somewhat on what would constitute collusion, telling fox news, for example, last night that it is not illegal to receive opposition research, even if it comes in his words from a russian, german or american, it doesnt matter, closed quote. What do you think of that . Well again, and this instance, he is not acting as a lawyer. It is valuable to get help and not report that help on federal Election Commission disclosure form. Again, why want to get into the fine details of law. Rudy guiliani is not being correct, he is not right on the face of it. Obviously, and it is interesting how he moved the goalpost. Obviously if it is true that the russians provided meaningful support to the Trump Campaign, and i use this language carefully because we need the investigation to tell us what happened, whether thats a crime or not, it is a profoundly concerning thing. The president tweeted, i will put it on the screen. Wow, word seems to be coming out that the obama fbi spied on the Trump Campaign with an embedded fft. Andrew mccarthy says theres probably no doubt they had at least one confidential informant in the campaign, closed quote. If so, the president says this is bigger than watergate. Thats a pretty extraordinary claim. Have you seen any evidence to back it up . I have seen no evidence to back that up. Remember, it was just over a year ago the president was tweeting that barack obama was spying on him in trump tower, then we went through all of the unmasking controversy within supposedly susan rice and Obama Administration people were acting inappropriately. All this turns out to be nothing. What is possible, and you had this conversation earlier, it is possible that in any criminal investigation the investigators may have an informant, happens with the mafia and drug rings all the time. You have informants. The president is using the word spy. Thats not what prosecutors or investigators do, but they might have had an informant. I have no information to that effect. As said in the earlier segment, if the fbi cleared the high bar to get an informant inside a president ial campaign, thats i dont know if it is true or not, if it is true, thats a big problem for the president and his campaign. Youre on the house intelligence committee. Let me get reaction to the Senate Confirmation awhile ago of gina haspel, first woman to serve as director of the cia. Do you believe she will be an effective director at cia . I do. I know gina a little bit. Shes hugely well respected within the agency. I think particularly at this moment in time, it is important for the agency to have somebody on the inside that they trust and maybe think that from time to time can act as a buffer from whatever the tweets are that are coming out of the oval office. Of course, the concern about gina haspel was participation in that extreme rendition program. If i had been a senator, im not sure how i would have thought about that. I know her going to mark warner and saying it should never have happened, that was an important statement for her to make. Congressman, thanks for joining us. Thank you, wolf. We have some breaking news coming into the situation room. Plea deal by former soninlaw of Paul Manafort, former Trump Campaign chairman who is now facing multiple conspiracy and Bank Fraud Charges due to muellers investigation. Bring in kara. Paul manaforts former soninlaw reached a plea agreement with the u. S. Attorneys office in los angeles. They have been investigating him over a year, all relates to Real Estate Development deals that he has done in the l. A. Area. Under this plea agreement, he will be required to cooperate with any investigation, whether it is new York Attorney general investigation into Paul Manafort or special Counsel Robert Muellers investigation into manafort. One source said a lot of the investigation focused on some of the deals that he has done as a real estate developer. He has been sued in multiple lawsuits, alleging he defrauded many investors, including dustin hoffman. There was a ponzi scheme he has now apparently confessed to. Thats right. Part of the plea agreement involves that, it is still under seal, we dont know the details of it. It relates to this development that he was doing in the los angeles area, raising money for developments in real estate which he didnt deliver on. Does this show the scope of the Mueller Investigation, other unrelated investigations that could tie into what mueller is trying to do . I mean, Paul Manafort has been indicted both in the district of columbia and virginia, two different lawsuits or indictments by the special counsel team. As part of that investigation, you see theyll talk to thousands, go through thousands of documents, talk to as many people as possible. It is quite possible theyll want to talk to the former soninlaw and see what, if anything, he might have that could contribute to the investigation. Theyll have two trials, one in july, one in september. It is possible they may turn to him for a witness or talk to him to see if he knows anything that could bolster their case. This is the u. S. Attorney in california involved in this. Now theres a u. S. Attorney in new york, Southern District of new york involved. There are multiple investigations. Do they think that he potentially has information that could benefit muellers investigation as far as manafort is concerned who is pleading not guilty . I think that remains to be seen. He was his former soninlaw. Im sure muellers team would want to know if he knows about any of the allegations they brought against manafort, involving lobbying activities and Bank Fraud Charges which they charged manafort with lying to the bank to take out money. One of those instances according to the indictment, prosecutors allege that he said one of the properties, his daughter and soninlaw were living in full time. You can imagine muellers team would be interested in talking to the soninlaw to see was he there and would that bolster the bank fraud allegation. Another legal development. Good reporting. Thank you very much. More on the breaking news in a minute. Also ahead, Rudy Guiliani insists the sitting president cant be indicted or forced to testify. Why is he pushing that argument now. And will it matter to the special counsel, Robert Mueller. Hes got legs of lumber and arms of steel he eats a bowl of hammers at every meal he holds your house in the palm of his hand hes your home and auto man big jim, hes got you covered great big jim, there aint no other so, this is covered, right . Yes, maam. Take care of it for you right now. Giddyup hi this is jamie. We need some help. Searching for answers may feel overwhelming. So start your search with our teams of specialists at Cancer Treatment centers of america. The evolution of cancer care is here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com experts i no wondering, what if . Uncertainties of hep c. I let go of all those feelings. Because i am cured with harvoni. Harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. 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And do it like that. snaps if youd have told me that i could afford. A gigspeed. A gigspeed network. Its like 20 times faster than what most people have. Id of said. Id of said youre dreaming. Dreaming definitely dreaming. Then again, dreaming is how i got this far. Now more businesses in more places can afford to dream gig. Comcast, building americas largest gigspeed network. Breaking news, a plea deal by former soninlaw of Paul Manafort, one time chairman of the donald trump president ial campaign. Lets get some more with our specialists and analyst. Laura coats, what do you think. It does underscore the scope. Theres the Robert Mueller investigation here in washington, the Southern District of new york, u. S. Attorney there, now investigating michael cohen, and now in l. A. , the u. S. Attorney investigating the former soninlaw of Paul Manafort. From coast to coast, manafort has a wide cast he can use to manipulate situations in ways that are lawful. He can have people cooperate in the endeavors, apply pressure to people like Paul Manafort. He is the former soninlaw, divorced in august. As of last june, mueller was sending people out to investigate and interview him about his close business ties to Paul Manafort. It is important to consider. He is somebody that had information on different loan operations, loans for properties in new york and other places. Even lived in one of the places that allegedly may be source of the investigation for mueller, so he has a lot of information. Also, we knew rick gates was cooperating, presumably against Paul Manafort, as his right hand man, would have a lot of information. Now you have someone we dont know what the relationship was between he and his fatherinlaw. Perhaps a vendetta, ax to grind. The plea agreement, were not sure whether he is specifically bounld bound to cooperate in the Mueller Probe or other investigations, likely this one. Gloria, Rudy Guiliani, the president s attorney is doing a lot of talking. I heard. Whats his strategy . Im not so sure theres a strategy in the sense of the word that we know it. I think Rudy Guiliani is out there freelancing an awful lot. I was told by a source familiar with the legal team that theyre very happy hes out there freelancing because it is has been cathartic for the president to have him out there. Doesnt help him much with bob mueller now, the special counsel, but Rudy Guiliani is out there doing what the president wants him to do. But in terms of the question and the story that dana broke yesterday about whether you can indict a sitting president , getting a direct answer, i think he wanted it out there for one reason and that is that his legal team believes that you can therefore, and youre the lawyer here, im not, that you can therefore not subpoena the president to testify if he cannot be charged with a crime. So say they were going to be talking about obstruction. Why would you have to know his state of mind, for example, if youre never going to charge him with it. This will be one of the arguments clearly that they would make if bob mueller wants him to testify. What do you say . First thing, if it is true mueller decided you cannot indict the president , thats very newsworthy. Both the prosecutor in watergate and ken starr with respect to bill clinton, both believed you could indeed indict the sitting president , and there are plenty of legal scholars that think you can. Theres nothing in the constitution says you cant indict a president , no court ever ruled that. This is just a legal theory. Completely unsettled. So the fact mueller has broken with predecessors that were contemplating this question is a big deal if what rudy is saying is true. Strategy is he wants to defang the prosecutor. He is trying to say all he can do is write a report. He cant indict us, he can write a report. I think we have to hear from mueller on this, if he is 100 certain. That changes his whole strategy. If the white house knows they decided they cant indict the president , that will change decisions about how they relate to mueller. Can i say one thing, and im not a lawyer, although i play one, right, but neither clinton nor nixon were forced to participate in a criminal proceeding. Clinton was forced in a civil deposition and nixon was forced to produce the tapes as we all know. So this has not yet been challenged, as you point out. Thats true. But the Supreme Court, glad you point it out, Supreme Court was clear, you did great, gloria. It is very clear if the court would find it is necessary for you to still stand and be part of a civil suit, courts looking at a civil case has a higher gravitas. The real thing guiliani is getting wrong is conflating whether you can stand for criminal trial, whether you can indict a sitting president , whether he is indictable and whether you can subpoena. Theyre different legal concepts. It is probably true he made that statement. Existing policy is not binding and written in stone, but it is binding until it is not. One can always be subpoenaed. If not, theres no purpose for a grand jury. David, you did go to law school. You have some knowledge about this. Back in 1998, Rudy Guiliani was asked if a president is asked to testify, subpoenaed to testify before a grand jury and says no, not going to do it, that was the question, guiliani says you got to do it. I mean, you dont have a choice. At least in 1998 during the bill clinton, he said if a president is subpoenaed, he has to answer questions. It depends which side of the political coin youre on. As everybody said, you can find a legal opinion in the department of justice to support whichever way you want to go. Couple of points. One, the president s legal team wants to get this message out there that all that the special prosecutor can do is issue a report, but thats by statute what theyre supposed to do. It goes to the Deputy Attorney general, the Deputy Attorney general then should send it onto congress. Second, i agree with you, gloria, that Rudy Guiliani is trying to make this bank shot legal argument, get it out there. That if you cant be indicted as a sitting president , therefore, what is the legal point of you even being able to be subpoenaed to testify. Heard our colleague last night make a very important point, which was that should be more incentive that the president should have to testify, then the legal pressure is off. He is just a witness, not a defendant in that case. So of course subpoena him, hear what information he can provide to the case. Here i go, sounding like a lawyer again. Say he wanted to assert the fifth, then you cant self incriminate. We are not going to indict you. How can you assert the fifth . How can you take the fifth here. Thats part of the issue here about the strategy of the pr campaign, court of public opinion, trying to meet the court of law. I think guiliani is crossing the road too many times in a way that undermines his credibility because if all of these things are true and all of the best Case Scenarios you laid out are true and there is not legal exposure, it would be as if you could say if im an eyewitness to a homicide, i then cant be subpoenaed because i couldnt ultimately be indicted for the homicide. It would be completely nonsensical, but guiliani tries nonetheless. Quickly, ryan, yesterday the fbi director tells congress theres no witch hunt, it is not a witch hunt. Today, the president doesnt only say it is a witch hunt, he says it is a disgusting, illegal, unwarranted witch hunt. What trump is doing is the same thing. They know at the end of the day, if they believe he cant be indicted at the end of the day, the only remedy if trump did something illegal or high crime or misdemeanor is impeachment, and they know this is now going to be in the realm of politics and they need to supply their political allies with arguments about why, one, this investigation, is a witch hunt, and two, he didnt do anything wrong. If mueller has really decided that, thats where were headed. We headed into the political realm of does Congress Step forward, do something with mueller. Thanks very much. Youre not a lawyer, youre not a lawyer. You are a lawyer, you are a lawyer. Were all lawyers now in this administration. All right, thanks very, very much. Just ahead, who leaked Michael Cohens financial records and why. I speak with the new yorker magazines ronan farrow about his reporting. As much as technology wise. And i would say i had nothing. You become a School Teacher for one reason, you love kids. And so you dont have the same tools, you dont always believe you have the same. Outcomes achievable for yourself. When we got the tablets, it changed everything. By giving them that technology and then marrying it with a curriculum thats designed to have technology at the heart of it, we are really changing the way that students learn. And i cant wait for ten years from now when i get to talk to them again and see, like, who they are. Rough if youre on vacation. But the best seat in the house if youre at outback. Introducing the aussie 4course, starting at 15. 99. But hurry, aussie 4course wont last long and if you want outback at home, order now Liberty Mutual saved us almost 800 when we switched our auto and home insurance. Liberty did what . Yeah, they saved us a ton, which gave us a little wiggle room in our budget. I wish our insurance did that. Then we could get a real babysitter instead of your brother. Hey, welcome back. This guy, right . laughs yes. Ellen. Thats my robe. You could save 782 when liberty stands with you. Liberty mutual insurance. I support the Affordable Care act, and voted against all trumps attempts to repeal it. But we need to do more. I believe in universal health care. In a Public Health option to compete with private insurance companies. And expanding medicare to everyone over 55. And i believe medicare must be empowered to negotiate the price of drugs. California values senator Dianne Feinstein the new yorker magazine is reporting a Law Enforcement official leaked financial records of President Trumps personal lawyer, michael cohen. The report says the whistleblower became alarmed after being unable to find two important reports on cohens financial affidavit in a government database. The author of the new yorker article, row 9 farrell, tell us about what motivated the source to come forward. So this is a somewhat dense area of financial databases minted by the government. Theres a database in which reports that banks are mandated to file when they see suspicious activity are held. And this Law Enforcement official searching for records related to michael cohen, which as fairly routine thing a Law Enforcement official might do in response to seeing news about cohen, to for instance see if there was anything happening related to this case in their jurisdiction. What this official found was that there was a fairly striking suspicious activity report, which has been public for the past week, about cohens activities. But also two additional reports that were withheld from search results in the system. And every expert we spoke to familiar with this data base said that is extraordinarily unusual. We discuss in the piece of the possibility maybe this isnt foul play, likely this is something that the office of the treasurer that maintains the database might have done because of the sensitive nature of the contents of those reports. This individual who leaked these reports felt alarmed about what this extraordinary step suggested about what may be in those other two documents that we havent seen yet. As your report makes clear in the new yorker, its possible that access to these documents was in fact restricted for legitimate reasons, given the extremely sensitive nature of the investigation into michael cohen. Heres what the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network had to say. What do you make of that explanation . Its very consistent with what we had in our story. Most of the experts agreed that this is very likely a case of results being withheld. We discussed the possibility it might be because of a request from, for instance, special counsel mueller, whos looking at the possibility of russia collusion in the last president ial election, or from the Southern District of new york. These are jurisdictions that have been involved in activities and investigations related to cohen. It would make sense that they may want to say, hey, not all Law Enforcement officers should have access to this. But this whistleblower, wolf, still felt, we talked about this possibility, and this person still felt that this suggested something highly unusual and irregular about these reports. And look, this is a person, you can agree or not, who said, i think its worth an extraordinary risk to expose that to the public. The banks certainly keep copies of these kinds of records. Wouldnt that protect against any potential nefarious coverup . Statute torely, the banks should be keeping these records for five years. Now the banks should also not be publicly acknowledging anything about these suspicious activity reports. Its very legally restricted to even acknowledge the existence of these. So if there were ever a scenario in which there was undue political influence on the decision by fincen to restrict these files, certainly there could be an investigation and you could likely restore them by going to the banks. How worried is this whistleblower about potential legal action against them . I think this is an individual who has been in Law Enforcement a long time and knew about all the risks associated with what they did here. And this person told me that what this extraordinary step of these withheld search results in the system suggested about these remaining reports, which wolf, document again triple the amount of transactions of what we know about now. This is a large swath of information we dont have right now. This person said this was so troubling, so frightening, that it was worth that extraordinary risk. Among other things, row 9 farrell is the author of a new book, a bestseller entitled war on peace the end of diplomacy and the decline of american influence. Congratulations on that, thanks for all the terrific reporting, ronan. Good to be here. Thats it for me. Thanks very much for watching. Im wolf blitzer in the situation room. Erin Burnett Outfront starts right now. Floent, breaking news. Paul manaforts former soninlaw reaching a plea deal. What does this mean for manafort and the russia investigation . The white house canceling its Daily Communications meetings. Theyre not going to do them anymore. After a staffers cruel joke at one of them leaked about senator john mccain. Is it really the right answer, to stop having meetings . The racist rant heard round the world. A lawyer threatening to call i. C. E. On spanish speakers in a new york restaurant. Lets go outfront. Im erin burnett. Outfront, the breaking news, possible new legal trouble for President Trumps former