happened. it seems dubious that the russian military, in other words, would want to take down a major passenger plane. >> certainly with not the intent of taking it down. again, we simply don't know who brought this down. i'm also here with lieu dtenant colonel rick francona. just in terms of kants, we have not seen separatists heretofor, they have brought down at least one transport plane, but they were not flying at 33,000 feet. >> yeah, this would require, as we were talking about, a more sophisticated system. talking about, you know, hitting it inadvertently, it would be very difficult for that to happen. generally once you're locked onto the target, it goes to that target. and if it veers off that target and is no longer being guided, they self-destruct. >> but when you're targeting a plane at that altitude, are you
clear on exactly what kind of a plane it is? >> no, it's a return on your radar. >> right. >> it will be a certain size, you can estimate the size of the aircraft. you may have other sensors that tell you what it is. but, you know, once you're getting radar returns and you engage the weapon, it just follows the radar path right up to the aircraft. >> so bob baer's earlier point that this is all trackable, that we will soon know where this missile, if that, in fact, is what it was was fired from, do you believe that? >> if we have the right sensors in the right place at the right time, yes. >> if you were monitoring. >> if you were looking for it, the radar signals can be intercepted. you can analyze those after the fact. can you even sometimes detect the launch of the missile. but your sensors have to be aimed at that spot at that time. >> and do we know if ukrainian government, which, i mean, their military capabilities have come under a huge amount of questions over the last couple of months.
although they have improved lately. whether they would have the capabilities of monitoring that area? >> the ukrainian armed forces would be able to detect the radars. that's very easy to do. >> they should be able to, whether one believes them or not, but they should be able to identify where this missile was fired from? >> they should not only be able to do that, what kind of radar it was, there would be multiple radar signals. there would be a search radar. there would be an acquisition radar, a guidance radar. so they should be able to determine all that. if they have that information, that surely indicates a launch of a weapon and that this was a shootdown. absent that, we don't know. was this an on-board explosion? was it hit with something? >> there's questions also about command and control of a device like that over who exactly would make such a call to actually fire that kind of a weapon, how organized it is. >> the russian air defense, when they move, they're all networked together. and someone is in charge.
now, if this is a division asset, they would make that decision. if they were provided to the separatists -- and i think that would be a remote possibility, you know, the systems are self-contained. once you've got the -- you know, the radar system and the missile system and you've got it up and running -- >> someone locally can do it. >> yes. >> it's not a centralized command. >> it would not have to be controlled, say, at a filter center up in the chain of command. >> but again, you believe the likelihood that any of these separatist groups that we have seen operating over the last 3 1/2 months in this conflict, that they would have the weaponry capable of bringing down a plane at this altitude? >> i agree. i think that's exactly right. hitting something at 33,000 feet requires a much more sophisticated capability than a man pads or something that a dissident group would have. >> our jim acosta is standing by at the white house. we've been hearing reports about conversations between russia and the united states. jim, what are you hearing?
>> reporter: right. well, we reported earlier this morning, anderson, that president obama and vladimir putin had a phone call earlier this morning to talk about those sanctions that the u.s. imposed on russia. and it was unclear, according to white house press secretary josh ernest, as to whether or not president obama and vladimir putin talked about these reports of this plane crash. and now we can confirm, according to the press secretary, that president putin did note these reports to president obama near the end of their phone call. so they did talk about it just briefly. it's not clear as to how much they talked about it or what they discussed in terms of covering that bit of news. but they did talk about it. one thing we should also point out, anderson, you've been talking about what are the capabilities of these separatists and what may have caused that plane to come down. we should point out that senior administration officials briefing reporters yesterday on a conference call about these sanctions that the u.s. imposed noted that some of the defense firms that were being sanctioned were responsible for the
production -- and i'm just reading from this -- of a range of material from small arms to mortar shells to surface-to-air missiles to tanks. the senior administration officials also noted that on july 14th ukrainians lost a transport jet which was shot down from an altitude of 21,000 feet with a crew on board, and the senior administration official noted, anderson, that only very sophisticated weapons systems would be able to reach this height. and so this is part of the concern the president was expressing yesterday in the briefing room here at the white house when he announced these sanctions is that this flow of arms and fighters from russia and ukraine, that's what the u.s. is alleging, was further de-escalating the crisis in ukraine, and that is why the united states decided to bring forth these sanctions. but the headline, anderson, is that these two presidents did talk about this plane crash earlier this morning. we're digging for more details as to exactly what they did discuss, though, anderson. >> we'll come back to you. i want to go to capitol hill where senator john mccain is standing by live. senator mccain, what do you make
of the information that you have heard thus far? >> thus far, we really don't know what caused it. but the fact is they were able to, quote, separatists, were able to shoot down an aircraft at 21,000 feet shows that there was capabilities. i do not want to leap to any conclusions because we, as you mentioned, it could be an explosion. it could be all kinds of reasons. but if it was a missile that took this plane down, then it has to be a very sophisticated weapons system. and the ukrainians do not have that capability. so if it is the case, we're going to have to act and act in the most stringent fashion including real sanctions, including giving the ukrainians the ability to defend
themselves, which we have not done so far. >> when you say the ukrainians themselves don't have that system, are you talking about the ukrainian government in kiev, or are you talking about ukrainian separatists? >> the ukrainian government in kiev. the separatists -- you know, i don't know because they are russian, as we know. they're not separate, russians and separatists. we all know that. the head of the separatists is a kgb army guy or fsb army guy. whether they gave them that capability or whether it was a russian capability is really almost a difference without -- a distinction without a difference. but again, we don't want to jump to conclusions until we have absolute facts of the case. >> do you have any information about people on board, if there were any americans on board this flight? have you been given any kind of a briefing at this point? >> no, we have not. i just talked to some intel people, and they aren't sure yet exactly what happened here.
you know, it's horrific. i remember back when they shot down a korean airliner and the repercussions that had throughout the world. and this is even worse in many respects. >> how closely -- i mean, obviously, you have been watching the situation in eastern ukraine very closely over the last 3 1/2 months. i was there really at the height of the crisis several months ago. it did seem for a time sha vladimir putin had, at least according to published reports, withdrawn a number of his forces, but it does seem, over the last several weeks or so, that those forces have been rebuilding along the border. >> and more disturbing than that, they've shot down several aircraft, as you know, over the last few weeks, including the transport that was as high as 21,000 feet. i think putin was disappointed that he didn't get more support both in eastern ukraine, odessa,
other parts of southern
so it was russian equipment that was either moved into eastern ukraine or from russia that's helped. most likely moved into eastern ukraine. so they have been doing it. but again, it's impossible for me to imagine this thing being, if it is a shootdown, nothing but a tragic mistake on their part from their point of view, much less the humanitarian aspect of it. >> right. it would seem that there's no strategic reason or any kind of a reason to bring down for any side to bring down a passenger jet. it doesn't serve a strategic goal in any sense. >> in fact, if -- if -- i keep emphasizing if -- it was a missile that was launched either by russia or the, quote, separatists, which in my view are indivisible, this would have the most profound repercussions. it would open the gates for our assisting finally the
ukrainians, giving them some defensive weapons. the sanctions that would be imposed as a result of that, that would just be the beginning. so i just cannot believe that no one in their right mind would want to shoot down an airliner. >> senator john mccain, i appreciate your time. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> we'll continue to consult with you and others on capitol hill. our nick paton walsh is standing by in london. i understand you have new information you're hearing from nato. >> reporter: not from nato, but i was speaking to informed individuals who can basically explain to me what kind of capability there is for tracking incidents like this. three possible different ways that are in nato's assets. one, a ground radar that they have, but that doesn't reach far enough into ukrainian territory outside. informed individuals say to be able to track something like this happening in ukraine. other option, there are nato awacs monitoring planes flying over poland and romania to
monitor that area because those nato members feel increasingly threatened because of what's happening. now, they would not be able to pick up this either. people talk about space satellites, the belief that we're monitored by the assets that the u.s. have in the sky, but my understanding is that ballistic missiles are picked up and tracked by that. that's ground to ground. that's a scud or an icbm, something pretty enormous. that's tracked by these satellites. but what i understand is not a surface-to-air missile. so there may be something else out there perhaps in the u.s. military armory which can look at things like this. there may be a radar in play that people aren't overly aware about. but according to these informed sources i've spoken to, we're pretty sure that the major assets nato have don't have some sort of magic rewind button and look at what happened. the people who do -- and this is where it's going to get particularly interesting or complicated as the blame game begins -- those who do are the russian military.
it's their border space, their capabilities. they will know precisely what happened, as i'm sure the ukrainians will have their own anlt capabilities, too. as this blame game continues, they'll, of course, have their own versions of events that they wish to put out. it's interesting to see that we may not magically in the next few hours have a crystal-clear picture from nato as to what they think has happened here, anderson. >> and richard quest who's joining us as well here in new york, i mean, you know, we've been focusing on this as sort of a geopolitical incident. we've been focusing on this as a military incident. but just as a human tragedy, we're talking about 280 passengers, 15 crew members on board this plane. this is a plane that left from amsterdam at 12:15 heading to kuala lumpur. there will be people from all over the world on board this airline. >> not only -- yes is the short answer. but look at the date. it's mid to late july. this is a holiday flight for
people from europe going to kl and then right through the region. >> kl being kuala lumpur. >> and vice versa from europe. this is the typical summer holiday. you have vacation, you have business travelers. you're going to have a disaster rescue operation in kuala lumpur similar to what we saw. i've just been talking to some pilots in europe this morning. one pilot in particular flying back from moscow this morning was said that there was activity flying over the area, was told, you know, there was activity in the region. there are many pilots that have, for a long time, been extremely concerned about flying over this conflict zone. because of the dangers. now, this pilot i spoke to this morning regularly flies across eastern ukraine, donetsk on his way to moscow. not once or twice, frequently.
and he says they are all concerned and scared at what they know have been happening. i see in the last couple of moments transarrow, the russian airline, says it will no longer fly over ukrainian. lufthansa saying it will no longer fly over ukraine. that might be closing the stable door after the horse is bolted. it's clearly been an issue for some time. >> it of course raises the question now and a question that will be asked by family members of those on board this plane is why wasn't that done sooner? why were planes continuing to fly over such a troubled region, considering that two planes, and one, as senator mccain was pointing out, had been shot down already at 21,000 feet. >> that's exactly the point. and we know that the faa had a prohibition against flying over crimea and the black sea for u.s. carriers. so there's no doubt that this was a known rick of fsk of flyi this eastern part. it shouldn't have been as big a problem as it has been. but we're looking at the most
horrific example of that. >> miles o'brien is joining us from d.c. on the phone. again, miles, i mean, you know this flight path well. you're a pilot yourself. and just talk about a little bit about what is happening now behind the scenes not only with malaysian airlines but all the various countries in the region in terms of dealing with the family members of those on board this flight. >> is that for miles? >> yeah, miles, you're on the air. >> okay. yeah, my apologies. what i can tell you is this. a civilian airliner at flight levels generally is going to be flying down corridors in the sky that would make it very clear what it was doing, what its intent was and the fact that it is not a nonfriendly object. so you have to ask a couple of questions. was there some sort of weather in the region which would have caused this airliner to deviate off of that known flight path
which could have aroused some sort of suspicion that was, as it turns out, wrong suspicion which might have made someone on the ground at the controls of a surface-to-air missile to determine that this was an aircraft with some sort of unfriendly intent. the other question you have to ask yourself is, you know, since april, the u.s. federal aviation administration has prohibited u.s. carriers from flying anywhere near this region. because of the concerns of what we're just talking about here right now. and you have to ask why an airline crew, why airline dispatch would make a conscious decision to fly across a war zone, in essence. not declare war, but a war zone is what it is. and so was that, frankly, the straightest -- the shortest distance between two points is a straight line that takes you right through that area. and this is probably a fuel-saving, time-saving decision. we'll have to see how that plays out as we hear from malaysian airlines. the other thing we have to
remember is this horrible unfortunate coincidence that we're talking about apparently, malaysian airline, in this case, we've already seen pictures of wreckage on the ground. we will know pretty quickly what happened here. an experienced aviation investigator will be able to determine if it blew up from the inside out or outside in. if there's the presence of the kind of fuel that is used for the surface-to-air missiles, rocket fuel, in essence. this will be something that can be found out fairly definitively fairly quickly. i think we'll get answers, but it's not a pretty picture when you consider the decision to fly in this zone and who actually made the call to actually launch that surface-to-air missile. it goes right back to korean airlines 007 back in the early -- 1983, in the absolute depth of the cold war with the soviets. in that case a fighter jet shot down a 747 with 290 people aboard. >> we should also point out
russia 24 news agency is reporting that the black box has been found, and the crash identified some 60 kilometers, they say, from the russian border. nick paton walsh joins us again from london. i understand you have information about separatists on the ground. >> well, we're hearing from the pro-kiev government, a billionaire appointed by kiev, he's released a statement in which he says at this moment separatists are preventing any ukrainian investigators from getting to that particular site. he says that will severely hamper their ability to perform any kind of investigation. he also hints later on in the statement the possibility that that may, in fact, be being done deliberately to hide the remains and hinder any investigation going forward. he offers condolences to the family and asks them to permit an investigation here. you see clearly they are -- this came down in territory held by separatists where the ukrainian military does not have a strong
presence. and it seems now, of course, that the ukrainian government itself may have an extraordinarily hard time getting anybody to that place to begin an investigation, all of which will slant what we hear in the days ahead, anderson. >> which truly, then, raises questions, nick, about who would actually undertake any kind of investigation, what would happen to the black box. the idea if separatists are holding this area, that still has to be worked out. >> reporter: absolutely. i mean, i think, obviously, the ukraine authorities, they don't control that territory. the separatists do not have the capability to analyze a black box. you have to also ask yourself whether the russians juan want to take that on board and analyze it themselves. it's something they have to give to the international community in a more transparent fashion. it's very messy, the relationship between the separatists and the russian government. they were repeatedly asked by moscow not to hold a referendum about the independence.
they ignored that, pushed ahead. people have said that public fissure is for show, that they're really secretly still being run. i think it's clear now that the ukrainian military is on the advance. the open at the same time statd dismay, they're not getting what they expected out of moscow. and that's really going to be key now. do they look to russian officials to move in and investigation, or there's no real investigation actually happening. we're in a very violent civil war at this point, anderson. >> i want to go to peter goelz with the national transportation safety board, a cnn aviation analyst. peter, obviously, an extremely complicated -- if, in fact, separatists are preventing ukrainian authorities which seem to make sense, how would this be investigated? >> i think that that's a great question. iko is the obvious organization, the international civil aviation
organization. they must demand immediately an independent, impartial investigation with safety guaranteed by the ukraine, by russia to put a team in there. you know, following -- you did an extraordinary special on twa on tuesday night. i managed that investigation. we did an enormous amount of testing with the fbi and the u.s. navy on missile strikes and commercial aircraft. there's an enormous amount of information in the resources of the u.s. we'll know what kind of missile, where it struck. it may not be in the black boxes, but we have a lot of information. but the key thing is for the international community to demand an immediate, independent investigation. we can't leave this in the hands of the russians or the ukrainians or the ukrainian separatists. >> peter, what sort of
information -- i mean, if it was, in fact, a missile strike, would there be information in the black box that that could kind of illuminate that, that could give you information? >> there could be, depending on how the missile detonated and how the plane came apart. but it also could have been, as it was in twa, both the voice recorder and the data recorder ended in a nanosecond. and there was only the briefest sound on the voice recorder. but a voice analysis, a sound analysis of that showed that it was a certain kind of explosion. it was not similar to say the lockerbie explosion. it was a lower or explosion which indicated that it was a fuel air explosion. so there is a, say, a wealth of material and information in the uk and in the united states that
can help solve exactly what happened here. >> peter, when you see the pictures that we've seen of large pieces of fuselage, the flag from malaysia airlines clearly visible on pieces of the aircraft, does it surprise you that an aircraft hit at 33,000 feet, that there would be these large pieces on the ground? >> no, it's perfectly explainable. once the plane's -- the integrity of the aircraft body is compromised, it literally unzips and comes apart in these kinds of large pieces. it is a horrific tragedy. and if you look at twa, the reconstruction that's kept out near dulles airport now at a training facility, you can see very similar pieces of wreckage.
>> i mean, for, again, i keep coming back to the fact that there were 280 people on board this plane, there were 15 crew members on board this plane, 295 people in all. i'm not even sure how to ask this question, and maybe just think about how you would answer it. i mean, are they killed instantly? i mean, is -- >> it is a painful question, and it is asked, you know, after each event. on something like this where it appears as though the plane came undone at a high altitude, most likely death would be instantaneously. on kal007 where it was shot down by a russian fighter plane, the plane struggled in the air and came down over a much longer period of time. but on something like this where the wreckage is over a vast
amount of territory, my guess is it came undone at altitude, and thankfully in this kind of tragedy, death was very quickly. was quick. >> 295 people on board. and just in that image, we saw a guide book, a lonely planet guide book for bali, the idea you brought up, richard, these are people headed on vacation. these are people probably with their families going on vacation to bali, to other places. >> absolutely no question in my mind. at this time of the year, that plane is full of holiday makers on their way to do lifelong holidays. now -- >> i'm sorry, i'm told we're getting some more information from jim sciutto. jim, what are you hearing? >> anderson, i've just been told by the ukrainian foreign ministry that it is their belief that this plane was taken down by a russian-made buk missile system that you have mentioned
before on the air. this is a truck-mounted missile system. they believe that this was a system used to take this plane down, that it occurred at 10,000 meters, about 33,000 feet. they also make the point that a couple of weeks ago, russian separatists claimed and bragged to have captured such a buk missile system inside eastern ukraine. in fact, at a ukrainian base and that there were pictures on russian television of this captured buk missile launcher. and officials also telling me there's a picture up on the screen right now. >> we're showing our viewers. this is the buk system that you're talking about. >> yeah. and the official i spoke to in the foreign ministry said that one reason that they're concluding this is that this is the only missile that could hit a plane, a passenger jet like this, at an altitude of 10,000 feet. anyway, that's the conclusion they're coming to already, that this was the system there, as you're seeing on the screen. >> let me just stop you there. just for clarification's sake, again, this is coming from
ukrainian officials. but basically this is a guess by them. they're not saying at this point that they have radar that has confirmed that this is a buk system. they are saying simply this is the only kind of system that could have brought down a plane at this altitude, correct? >> i'm told, anderson, that it is not just a guess, that this assessment is coming from the ukrainian military. now, obviously part of that is an assessment based on the capability of the missile. but they have not told me -- i do not know if they have missile-tracking data, but it is at least their belief that this is the system that took down the plane. >> and you're saying, again, because it bears repeating because this is an important point that you raise, that ukrainian separatists, so-called separatists, senator mccain sort of qualifies that term or uses that term cautiously, but that certainly those fighting the government in kiev for separation or a connection with russia in eastern ukraine, that they had bragged about getting their hands on a buk system
previously? >> that's right. not only bragged about it but shown pictures of it in their possession and that the russian television had done reports on this as they captured this weapons system. another indicator, anderson, as the ukrainian government makes this conclusion about this being the system that took the plane down is just what i told you earlier when we spoke a short time ago, that they are also looking at evidence that the plane came apart at altitude which would, from their perspective, and our experts' perspective, indicate the possibility of a missile strike at least. so i think what you have here is the ukrainian government looking at a number of indicators here and saying they believe it was a buk missile system that was used to take this plane down. again, as you referenced and as we repeatedly referenced as we've spoken, these are early conclusions as the clues are just coming in. >> and again, i'm here with richard quest and lieutenant colonel rick francona. again, we've talked about this buk system. the idea, though, that separatists had gotten their hands on it somehow, whether
with permission or without permission, do you find it likely that separatists could figure out how to fire and operate this system? >> that's the question. if they got their hands on this, that's a quantum increase in capability. then the question is who operated this system? it's not inconceivable that the russians would have provided that expertise to them. >> formerly with the military. >> could be or someone that has that training is now part of the russian separatist group. somebody who knows who you to use that system had to be involved in this. you just don't walk in, sit down and start -- let's just play this by ear and see if we can make it work. >> i just wanted to talk on the aviation side of this, as opposed to the military side of it, it would appear, anderson, that this area was not under restriction. according to the international airline association, represents all the airlines, although both the europeans and the americans had prohibitions over crimea and
parts of the black sea, this eastern part of ukraine was not on the prohibition list for flying over. now, in the last hour, we've heard from lieu tlufthansa and turkish. this is an old picture from flight radar. if you look at flight radar 24 thousand -- >> there's still aircraft flying there. >> there's still aircraft -- there's still aircraft flying there. >> if we were to show a picture of flight radar 24 over that area now, you were just showing -- >> yeah, i can't get it on my phone right now, but yeah, we just took a look at the live radar, there are still aircraft operating in this area. >> civilian aircraft. >> yes. >> and the pilots i've been speaking to this morning still say -- one of my colleagues -- or one of my friends flew from
missco to a destination in western europe. >> you're looking at a still photo there. we're looking at live information on various mobile devices. who makes that decision? is it individual airlines who then make the decision, okay, we're no longer going to fly, or is there an international body? >> no international body. i mean, they might ban it completely, yes. they could in that situation. but normally it would be the airline. it would be the regulator. so the european regulator, the national regulatoregulator, the. i would imagine within the hour we're going to start seeing total regulatory bans. >> and the question is, why wasn't that done sooner given the concern richard was hearing from a number of pilots for some time. our barbara starr is with us. barbara, what are you hearing? >> anderson, this is rapidly shaping up tore a security crisis across europe. what i am hearing is that both military services and intelligence services across
europe now looking at their intelligence systems for any clues about what may have happened here. there are a number of military and intelligence radars across europe run by the european nations, also by the united states, some of them. and they are all now scrambling, looking for any clues, any signals in their systems, any infrared heat signatures, any acoustic signatures about what may have happened. what we know now is that the u.s. satellite systems that watch for ballistic missile launches, those satellites did not record this event because it happened essentially in a different trajectory than what a ballistic missile would have flown. so u.s. satellites did not see it. those that watch europe for ballistic missile launches. now the military, the intelligence community in the u.s. going back through everything that they have. the supreme allied commander in europe, general phillip breedlove, who is a four-star
u.s. air force general who runs all nato military operations in europe has been briefed around the clock since this happened. he's been looking at this. he's looking at nato awacs airplanes. those are radar airplanes that nato flies over europe because of the russian crisis to see if they recorded anything. general breedlove also certainly working with his european military and intelligence counterparts across the continent. so one of the things happening here, anderson, very quickly, because this is an airspace issue, you are now really starting to see other european nations move in, weigh in and look at what information they may have. i also want to go back a minute and underscore some u.s. officials, just as some of your guests said on the air, looking at this russian system called the buk. the buk anti-aircraft missile system. whether it was russian, whether it was separatists, whoever may
be operating one, whether they were involved with this or not, this is one of the systems that the u.s. military, the u.s. intelligence community scrutinizing right now to see if it was possibly involved. they know that this system is on the border. they know that the russians know how to operate it. you just have to look at it. you see how complex it is. they are looking to see if there's any possibility the buk was involved. anderson? >> barbara starr, i appreciate that update. richard quest, i think you're getting new information from klm? >> klm, yes, the royal dutch airlines, which was a co-chair partner with this flight from malaysian airline, has put out a statement, if i may read it. although not yet officially confirmed by malaysia airlines, it's with great regret that klm has learned about the possible incident with mh17. malaysia airlines from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. we are in contact with the
airline. as a precautionary measure, klm, and then it gives a variety of numbers for people if they're in the air and they need more information. >> again, for family members now, this is going to be just a logistical nightmare, trying to get information. >> the international organization has very strict guidelines about how our airlines and how countries set up the provision of disaster relief for families. you've got to practice it. you've got to be ready. you've got to have the necessary phone lines. it's a very complicated operation. but in this case, once again, it will fall to malaysia airlines to do it as the state. you're looking at basically the state of airline. you're talking about that's the people who have to do it. who will hold the investigation?
normally, anderson, you'll remember, we talk about the state of occurrence, the state of airline, the state of operator, the state of design. so in that situation, we're still looking at malaysia, russia, ukraine as being those involved. >> and we're told now that we have video from the moment the plane crashed. we are seeing this now for the first time. let's take a look. we'll try to re-rack that just to take another look. it's obviously very far in the distance from where this video was. you tonight actually, as far as we can see -- it does seem that
it came down relatively in one area, or at least the biggest part of it seemed to have come down in one area. >> well, judging from the amount of flames that we saw at the point of impact, that was a large chunk probably, and that obviously is fuel going up when you get that color of smoke. >> one's tempted to pause for a moment just to realize the enormity and gravity of what we're looking at in this. the plane would have been fully fueled for the amsterdam to kuala lumpur flight. the missile or whatever hit it clearly didn't destroy it in midair. it was sufficient for the tanks to have hit the ground. do jump in, sir, if there's more that you can add. and for the tanks to have exploded on the ground. but what we're looking at there is -- >> and again, the question now, and we have heard our nick paton walsh reporting concerns from
ukrainian officials about their ability to actually get to the crash site. this is obviously essential that officials get to the crash site not only to get the black box, to recover any other items, as we saw with the twa flight 800 investigation which again happened, this is the anniversary of that plane crashing. that was a very lengthy investigation where they basically reassembled the aircraft to try to determine exactly what had happened. again, access to this site is going to be essential, and it's not clear at this moment exactly how that will occur. we're going to take a short break. 295 people on board this plane. we have no information about any of them. hard to imagine, obviously, that there could be any survivors from something like this. we're going to take a short break, and our coverage continues in a moment.
good afternoon, i'm anderson cooper. we are following breaking news right now. the malaysian airlines flight, a boeing 777, has crashed near the border between ukraine and russia. this is graphic video, we want to warn you, showing the aftermath of this crash. these are images we are just starting to get in. we are now getting new pictures of the moment the plane itself crashed in a fiery explosion off on the horizon in this video. malaysian airlines confirming that they lost contact with flight mh17. there you see the impact, the fireball, flames, the presence of fuel obviously still there in the fuselage as richard quest noted a short time ago. this is a plane which would have been loaded up with fuel because of the long flight between amsterdam where the plane took off, was heading toward kuala lumpur in malaysia. a plane carrying 295 people, 280
of them were passengers, 15 crew members. for you, what you're looking at right now is the path the plane itself took after departing amsterdam at 12:30 p.m. local time. as i said, bound for kuala lumpur where it was supposed to arrive the next morning. this is where the plane reportedly went down, an area in eastern ukraine. at this stage in the flight, the plane would have likely been at cruising altitude, some 32,000 or 33,000 feet up. the location and the timing certainly suspect, considering this is an area of extreme conflict right now, ongoing fighting between pro-russian separatists, the government of ukraine and the russian military based on the border there. the ukrainian interior ministry claims this plane was shot down, telling cnn that pro-russian separatists have been, quote, hunting us for weeks using anti-aircraft missiles. but at this stage, both sides are denying responsibility. we do have reporters covering this from every corner of the globe.
i want to go first to our jim sciutto. the plane was reportedly shot down by pro-russian separatists on monday. that was at 21,000 feet. this malaysian jet at some 32,000 feet. are we any clearer on who may have shot the plane down? having some problems getting jim. we'll continue to check in. our richard quest is here. again, at this stage, we still don't know exactly who fired this missile, what would the intent of this missile be, this buk system, which is a russian missile system seems to have been what a lot of people in the pentagon are certainly focusing on at this point? >> if today's events can now be put into two very distinct groups, anderson, you have what has happened and why, the awfulness of the military situation that's led to this, and then you have the aviation side of it, which is why aircraft are in this area, why warnings were given, all these sort of issues, and the tragedy
of relatives and the dealing with the disaster and the investigation that falls in. so two very distinct -- it's almost unique in these, if i can say that, to have these situations where military activity creates civil aviation. of course, there's iran, there's kal, there are all those incidents, but they're few and far between. and when they happen like this, they call the whole aviation spri into question. >> i'm here also with fareed zakaria and lieutenant colonel rick francona, cnn military analyst. obviously there's the human horror of this, and that, of course, is primary in our minds. there's also military implications, political implications, strategic implications. which will largely be determined by who fired this missile and why. >> absolutely, anderson. if this turns out to be what, frankly, many of us suspect it
is, that is a casualty, a terrible casualty of the ukrainian/russian conflict, this is huge because it's even bigger than kal because in this case what appears -- what might have happened -- and again, a lot of caveats, but what might have happened is that the russian government has been supporting, training, arming rebels, separatists in ukraine, essentially teaching them how to do this kind of thing. those forces have in the past shot down helicopters of the ukrainian army, cargo planes, as you noted. it would not be difficult to imagine that they thought this was a ukrainian cargo plane because these are poorly trained, ill-equipped. they probably don't have the right kind of radar to figure it out, and they probably don't care. these are not, you know, people following safety precautions. >> in fact, the separatist group just shortly before this plane went down had bragged about, on this day, bringing down what they said was ukrainian military
plane. >> precisely, which is why, as i say, all the signs suggest that what happened here was that the russian government has had this strategy off training these rogue elements within ukraine to make this kind of trouble for the ukrainian government. this thing went badly awry as a result of that. but frankly, in a perfectly predictable way, when you start using these kinds of forces to do your dirty work for you, something like this is bound to happen because these are not disciplined forces that are under tight command and control from the kremlin. and back to the first point you were making, this produces a major international incident because it points out that what russia has been doing has not only been destabilizing ukraine but destabilizing it on the cheap in a dangerous way largely to preserve a kind of plausible deniability, but now we see the consequences. >> and we talked to senator john mccain a short time ago in our last hour. he said -- and he was very
cautious about who was behind this -- but he said if, in fact, this is russia/separatists, that that -- i mean, it could be a game changer in terms of u.s. involvement bolstering, providing military armaments, weaponry to the ukrainian government in kiev. >> it would absolutely. it would mean that the united states and presumably europe would be much more involved and invested in helping. i think world opinion will change. but also, however, will make the situation much more tense, much more dangerous. remember, we were trying to move -- everybody involved -- to some kind of negotiated solution here where the russians would try to stabilize the ukrainian government because at the end of the day they live right next door to them. i think that's going to be impossible. if you think that relations between russia and washington are going to get tense, imagine the relations between russia and kiev. the ukrainian government and the russian government are not going to sit down for a negotiation
tomorrow if -- again, with a big caveat, if this turns out to be what some signs suggest it is. >> and lieutenant colonel francona, obviously a lot we still don't know in terms of what sort of a device brought this plane down, but clearly the idea that separatists would have been able to do this without some sort of greater technology from russia or taken from the ukrainian military, it seems impossible. >> i think if it were -- if the separatists did get their hands on these systems, a lot of this is starting to make sense now because they would not be plugged into the air traffic control system whereas the russian air defense system is fully integrated into the air traffic control system. they know where civilian airliners are. they know what they're squawking. if this is a rogue element or a group of separatists that got their hands on this high-tech piece of equipment, rolled it out into the field and just turned on the radar and said, that must be ukrainian aircraft and took a shot at it, they
would have no trouble knocking it down, but they didn't know what they were shooting at. >> for those who oppose russia obviously and russia's actions in eastern ukraine, fareed, none of that will really matter that it could be a rogue element. the fact that there are more than 10,000 russian forces on the border, the fact that russia has been on the ground in eastern ukraine, that they have been behind events in eastern ukraine, there will be a lot of fingers pointed at russia in this, whether or not it was russian forces who actually pressed the button. >> absolutely, anderson, because this has been the distinctive signature of russian policy in this region. that's how they took over crimea. that's how they obviously is an incident if it turns out to be an act of war is going to dramatically escalate the stakes for everyone involved, europe as well as the united states. >> and andrea, let's check in briefly with someone we both know, retired army four-star
general, and nbc news military analyst, general barry mccaffreys in seattle. what strikes you as you have been watching incoming pictures? >> a couple things, brian. one is, i'm sort of astonished at the inability to say anything sensible at all about the situation. one would think the u.s. embassy in the netherlands almost immediately within an hour or so would know whether u.s. passengers are aboard. second comment, obviously this was a mistake shootdown by somebody. nobody wants to bring down a commercial airliner. they're now trying to hide their engagement. third observation, these sa-17 buck missiles, tremendous self-propelled capability, a range out to 40-some-odd kilometers. you can't see an aircraft at 300 feet. so normally engaged by target acquisition radar.
if this was the russians, i would hope they would have easily detected a known flight path, iff, an identification, friend or foe. it's hard to imagine the russian military would have done it. so the conclusion is, if it's a shootdown, then it's more likely the -- very sophisticated equipment the russians are pushing across that border, that would have targeted and brought down by mistake a commercial airliner. finally comment, nobody in his right mind should be flying commercial aircraft in that part of the world. it's just astonishing to me that malaysian airlines is still using that route. >> andrea mitchell, back to you, briefly. >> just very briefly, i want explain, the first word has to come from malaysia air who was on the manifest. there were also privacy laws and we know when things like this happen, whenever incidents happen, the state department is not permitted to release names until families are notified.
but the first word as to whether the americans would come from the manifest of that plane, that will the rectangle administration of the producer of the aircraft and investigation. thank you. >>translator: ex extraordinary situation. the search is conducted by the forces of governmental service in donesk region. it's difficult for the wreckage. and the search is also difficult, because of challenges that are supposed by armed
terrorists who are -- there is headquarters in one of the essential buildings of the service. 24 hours. the hotline 247-350. also, you can find information on -- you can ask -- request information from the special hotline 101. we thank you all. we can assure you that we will take all necessary measures to resolve and to establish circumstances of this horrible, awful tragedy. and we will keep you updated with our investigations about
this tragedy. thank you for your attention. >> all right. a press conference from ukraine officials. want to go to our jim acosta, getting information from the white house. jim, what are you hearing? >> reporter: appearannderson, w hearing the president is expected to talk about the plane crash. at the top of his remarks coming up several minutes from now. he's going to be speaking at a previously scheduled event in wilmington, delaware, supposed to be there to talk about infrastructure endeavors being undertaken here at the white house. the other thing we want to point out, anderson, the white house has read out the phone call between president obama and president putin and wanted to highlight something i think is very important. of course, we don't want to draw any conclusions, but it was noted during this phone call by the president to vladimir putin that in the face of extensive evidence that russia is significantly increasing the provision of heavy weapons to separatists of ukraine and russia's failure to take other
steps to deescalate the crisis, it was necessary to impose additional sanctions. the president wasn't drawing any conclusions during the phone call. they talked about the plane crash later on in the phone call but it was during the conversation that the president once again restated his grave concerns about what is happening, the u.s. allegations there is a steady flow of arms and fighters across that russian/ukrainian border. anderson? >> for clarity, the president is expected to speak at the top of the hour? >> reporter: right now on the schedule at 2:10:00 p.m. eastern time in wilmington, standing in front of the i-495 bridge there, in a serious state of disrepair, going to talk about fixing roads and bridges around the country. this has been the white house message all week. but we understand it's now expected that the president will be talking about the plane crash during those remarks, probably at the top of those remarks, anderson. >> all right. we'll obviously bring that to our viewers live. i want to check in with chad myers, new information about the flight, the path of
this plane took. chad, what are you learning? >> not the normal flight that this usually takes. we talked to miles o'brien, and we can go ahead and talk to richard quest about this. the lines on the map. that's the highway. those are the roads that the plane can take. and we have l-980. that's the plane on that one. typically, though, down here around n-991, or even n-190, just like the highways that you have in america on any roadway, you get numbers. you get names. what happened with this plane is that because what i believe to be a thunderstorm complex down here over the normal flight path, there's that one right there, we talked about that, on 980. it could have been on 991, and a lot of the time, this is now sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday, most of the flights down here on this n-190. but because of the weather down here, right on top of that n-190, the plane was farther to the north right up here, and that's where the plane finally
ended. anderson. >> chad, we're also getting more information i think from other airlines. i want to check in with rene marsh. what are you hearing? >> reporter: anderson, perhaps a snapshot we have for you here, just goes to show you the activity within the air space shortly after this crash, which is unfolding. so we want to go to this here. this is from flight aware.com. if you take a look, you can see most of the commercial airlines we do know at this point, these flights are avoiding this area that just simply speaks to the continuing concern of the potential danger of flying over this air space at this hour. we could tell you just about 20 minutes ago, at last look, we saw that there were only three commercial aircraft which were seen flying within this area. two were russian airliners. that was flying north of crimea and a malaysian flight 21 heading to kuala lumpur from paris. but again, if you take a look at
these applications here, flightaware.com, just one of them, you can see that there is not heavy traffic within this area where this plane went down. and most likely for good reason. because there is a lot of concern as to what happened and what caused this plane to go down. again, we have been in very close contact with the agencies here. it just goes to show you, information doesn't travel as fast as social media or even the news media, because even here in the united states ntsb doesn't have concrete information they can share with us. we do know, though, if this plane was indeed shot down, the ntsb would not be involved in this investigation. because then it is automatically criminal. that is something for the fbi to take over. so we do know that. we do know what the ntsb's role would look like if this was indeed a criminal activity. but, again, that remains a big question at this point, anderson. >> it also remains a big
question, rene, about the ability to actually investigate this, to actually get to the site. and we're going to talk about that in the upcoming hour with our analysts and richard, just as we are awaiting president obama's comments ten minutes or so from now, still a lot we don't know but the picture is starting to form. >> it is. on what happened, the picture is starting to form. who investigates it -- i was just listening to the defense minister from ukraine. he has clearly laid out the case for ukraine investigating this. saying he is putting together the necessary investigation. so the ukrainians are clearly putting a land grab. we will investigate. >> the only alternative, really, would be that russian authorities would investigate, and that would obviously raise huge questions if there was some sort of russian military involvement at all. in terms of getting access to the site, it's either russian authorities or ukrainian

Related Keywords

Happened , Buk Anti Aircraft Missile System , Plane , It , Cruising Altitude , Target , Self Destruct , Aircraft , Kind , Flight Radar , Sensors , Size , Return , Surface To Air Missile , Fact , Point Of Impact , Weapon , Trackable , Radar Path , Radar Returns , Bob Baer , Radar Signals , Place , Yes , Government , Capabilities , Launch , Questions , Amount , Which , Spot , Area , One , Radars , Ukrainian Armed Forces , Information , Acquisition Radar , Search Radar , Something , Lockerbie Explosion , Shootdown , Command , Control , Device , Russian , Someone , Call , Over , Air Defense , Pro Russian Separatists , Missile System , Decision , Systems , Radar System , Possibility , Division Asset , Filter Center Up , Running , Chain Of Command , Feet Up , Groups , Conflict , Weaponry , Operating , Likelihood , 3 1 2 , 33000 , Capability , Group , United States , Jim Acosta , Conversations , White House , Man Pads , Reporter , Sanctions , Anderson Cooper , Vladimir Putin , President Obama , Phone Call , White House Press Secretary , Josh Ernest , Plane Crash , Reports , President Putin , End , Press Secretary , Thing , Terms , News , Bit , Officials , Administration , Reporters , Some , Defense Firms , Conference Call , July 14th Ukrainians , Missiles , Arms , Transport Jet , Tanks , Material , Production , Range , Mortar Shells , July 14th , 14 , Feet , Part , Height , Concern , Official , Weapons Systems , Crew , 21000 , Buk Missile System Inside Eastern Ukraine , Crisis , Headline , Fighters , Flow , Briefing Room , Senator John Mccain , Capitol Hill , Details , Presidents , Talk , Two , Quote , What , Ntsb Doesn T , Conclusions , Kinds , Feet Shows , Reasons , Plane Down , Weapons System , Case , Ability , Fashion , Act , Kiev , Separatists , Head , Harmy Guy , Kgb , Fsb , Difference , Facts , Distinction , People , Flight , Briefing , Intel , Airliner , Repercussions , World , Respects , Korean , Situation , Eastern Ukraine , Border , Forces , Number , Transport , Both , Odessa , Parts , Equipment , Point Of View , Mistake , Aspect , Nothing , Reason , Sense , It Doesn T , Side , Passenger Jet , Goal , Gates , View , Indivisible , Result , Mind , Weapons , Beginning , Nato , Senator , Nick Paton Walsh , London , Others , Territory , Assets , Ways , Individuals , Ground Radar , Tracking Incidents , Doesnt Reach , Three , Happening , Awacs , Poland , Option , Members , Belief , Space Satellites , Ground , Sky , Satellites , Understanding , Scud , Icbm , Things , Play , Sources , Us Military Armory , Sort , Military , Blame Game , Magic Rewind Button , Who , Course , Events , Border Space , Versions , Inanlt , Incident , Picture , Richard Quest , New York , Crew Members , Amsterdam , Passengers , Military Incident , Human Tragedy , 15 , 12 , 280 , Airline , Kuala Lumpur , Holiday Flight , Answer , All Over The World , Region , Western Europe , Summer Holiday , Kl , Kl Being , Vice Versa , Vacation , Pilots , Pilot , Disaster Rescue Operation , Business Travelers , Activity , Morning , Way , Conflict Zone , Dangers , Moscow , Donetsk , Lufthansa , Moments Transarrow , Aviation Spri Into Question , Family Members , Wasn T , Fly , Issue , Horse , Door , Planes , The Point , Faa , It Shouldn T , Crimea , Carriers , No Doubt , Rick Of Fsk , Prohibition , Problem , Black Sea , Flyi , Big A , Flight Path , Phone , Mileso Brien , Example , Pilot Yourself , Scenes , Dc , Countries , Dealing , Intent , Air , Civilian Airliner , Doing , Corridors , Apologies , Flight Levels , Couple , Weather , Nonfriendly Object , Suspicion , Controls , Concerns , War Zone , Essence , War , Airline Crew , Airline Dispatch , Line , Distance , Points , Malaysian Airlines , Straightest , Pictures , Wreckage , Aviation Investigator , Coincidence , Rocket Fuel , Presence , Inside Out , Zone , 007 , Fighter Jet , Depth , Cold War , Soviets , 290 , 1983 , 747 , Crash , Black Box , Russia 24 , Reporting , News Agency , 24 , 60 , Billionaire Appointed , Statement , Investigators , Investigation , Site , Remains , May , Us Military , Condolences , Family , Al L , Anybody , Idea , Board , Authorities , Community , Referendum , Relationship , Independence , Show , Fissure , Run , Advance , Open , Statd Dismay , Civil War , Peter Goelz , National Transportation Safety Board , Cnn , Iko , International Civil Aviation Organization , On Twa Tuesday Night , Independent , Safety , Team , Following , Commercial Aircraft , Fbi , Testing , Us Navy , Lot , Resources , Boxes , Hands , Missile Strike , Twa , Recorder , Data Recorder , Briefest , Nanosecond , Sound Analysis , Voice Analysis , Sound , The Voice , Wealth , Fuel Air Explosion , Uk , Pieces , Fuselage , Flag , Aircraft Hit , Tragedy , Integrity , Aircraft Body , Reconstruction , Training Facility , Dulles Airport , 295 , Event , Death , Fighter Plane , Guess , Guide Book , Image , Bali , Lonely Planet Guide Book , Families , Holidays , Places , Holiday Makers , Foreign Ministry , Jim Sciutto , 10000 , Television , Base , Buk System , Missile , Viewers , Screen , Ministry , Picture Up , Conclusion , Clarification , Sake , Assessment , Data , Saying , Term , Separation , Connection , Possession , Indicator , Perspective , Evidence , Experts , Clues , Indicators , Rick Francona , Im Here With Richard Quest , Permission , Quantum Increase , Somebody , Training , Expertise , Aviation Side , Start , Sit Down , Dont Walk In , Ear , Europeans , Prohibitions , Restriction , International Airline Association , Prohibition List , Lieu Tlufthansa , Turkish , 124 Thousand , Showing , Look , Civilian Aircraft , Friends , Colleagues , Emissco , Devices , Destination , Photo , Regulatoregulator , Body , Hearing , Bans , Intelligence , Services , Security Crisis , Barbara Starr , Intelligence Systems , Scrambling , European Nations , Europe Run , Signals , Satellite Systems , Signatures , Heat Signatures , Infrared , Ballistic Missile , Trajectory , Supreme Allied Commander , Phillip Breedlove , Everything , Four , General , Radar Airplanes , Military Operations , Us Air Force , Clock , Awacs Airplanes , Anything , Continent , Counterparts , Airspace Issue , Nations , Weigh , System , Guests , Us Intelligence Community , Update , Klm , Co Chair Partner , Contact , Regret , Flight Mh17 , Numbers , Measure , Variety , Organization , Nightmare , Provision , Operation , Guidelines , Phone Lines , Disaster Relief , State , Operator , Malaysia , Occurrence , Design , Video , Takea Look , Time , Flames , Chunk , Color , Smoke , Enormity , Gravity , Didn T , Amsterdam To Kuala Lumpur , Midair , Sir , Crash Site , Twa Flight 800 , Items , 800 , Plane Crashing , Anniversary , Essential , Any , Coverage , Break , Survivors , Breaking News , Malaysian Airlines Flight , Boeing 777 , 777 , Images , Horizon , Aftermath , Impact , Fireball , Plane Carrying , Path , 30 , Stage , Location , Timing , 32000 , Fighting , Suspect , Interior Ministry , Sides , Responsibility , Corner , Globe , Jet , Clearer , Problems , Pentagon , Lawfulness , Issues , Led , Warnings , Situations , Military Activity , Relatives , Disaster , Incidents , Makal , Fareed Zakaria , Civil Aviation , Iran , Minds , Primary , Human Horror , Implications , Many , Casualty , Arming Rebels , Caveats , Supporting , Cargo Planes , Cargo Plane , Helicopters , Military Plane , Safety Precautions , Dont Care , Signs , Trouble , Elements , Strategy , Work , Point , Kremlin , Consequences , Plausible Deniability , Involvement , Game Changer , Military Armaments , World Opinion , Helping , Tense , Everybody , Move , Solution , Relations , Negotiation , Lieutenant Colonel , Caveat , Technology , Air Traffic Control System , Air Defense System , Rogue Element , Piece , Shot , Squawking , Field , Action , None , Fingers , Signature , Button , Policy , Absolutely , Know , Briefly , Everyone , Andre A , Stakes , Act Of War , Retired Army Four Star General , Let , Military Analyst , Barry Mccaffreys , Nbc News , Seattle , Brian , Comment , Inability , Embassy , Netherlands , Nobody , Mistake Shootdown , Engagement , Observation , 17 , Target Acquisition Radar , Kilometers , 300 , 40 , Identification , Friend Or Foe , Iff , Back To You , Route , Andrea Mitchell , Manifest , Names , Word , State Department , Privacy Laws , Producer , The Americans , Rectangle , Translator , Ex Extraordinary Situation , Search , Service , Challenges , Terrorists , Headquarters , Buildings , Request Information , 247 , 350 , Hotline 101 , 101 , Investigations , Measures , Circumstances , Press Conference , Attention , President , Top , Remarks , Wilmington , Appearannderson , Delaware , Putin , Infrastructure Endeavors , Face , Failure , Steps , Conversation , Allegations , Clarity , Ukrainian Border , Country , Bridges , Schedule , Front , Disrepair , Message , Fixing Roads , I 495 , 495 , 10 , 00 , 2 , Chad Myers , Roads , Lines , Highway , Map , Highways , On 190 , Down Here Aroundn 991 , America , Roadway , L 980 , 980 , 991 , 190 , Thunderstorm Complex , Flights , Most , Thisn 190 , North , Tuesday , Monday , Air Space , Snapshot , Rene Marsh , Flightaware Com , Danger , 20 , Paris , 21 , Applications , Traffic , Likely , News Media , Agencies , Social Media , Information Doesnt Travel As Fast , Down , Role , Rene , Analysts , Comments , Defense Minister , Ten , Alternative , Land Grab , Access ,