He is interviewed by the millennial action project president. After words is a Weekly Program interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. Congratulations jens, on the publication of, your book. I am so excited to scuss it today with you and i are both really interested in. The generational shift that is occurring in this country right now at, a time where so much of the focus seems to be on Younger Generations. What made you want to write something about boomers . Well, yeah. I mean, to your point, ive long been interested in the way which generations are talked about in the United States. It probably started back when i worked the Atlantic Wire and was writing a piece there every. So often every couple of years, theres one of these little brouhaha pieces in the media about what defines generations, whos what generation, yada, yada, yada. Im one of those that could and i actually call it the Census Bureau talked to them and they were like, look, the only generation we recognize is the baby because it has clear demographic markers that the other generations dont. So that sort of started me down this path of every time i start hearing about generations would be like, well, generations arent really, so why do we use them and how do we use them . What is it about generational identity that actually serves as useful for whats happening in american politics and culture . And so then that became the genesis of the book. And before we get to deep tell about how does generational identity get formed and as you did the for for this how did you avoid overgeneralization or stereotype around what is often referred to as a monolith. And i think very much so is not a monolith. Yeah. I mean, look and quite frankly, i would do is i would make a broad generalization and then say it was generalization. I mean, its hard not to do that, right. And its hard not to sort of say look, here are some characteristics of this Massive Group of people has. Obviously, it doesnt apply everyone but right. Thats just sort of theres not really any way to get around that unless start detailing the lives of you know however many tens of millions of people. So, you know when we consider a generation as i said, the Census Bureau only looks at the baby boom as a defined generation because can see the sharp spike in births that in the immediate aftermath of World War Two and then continues on for about the next 20 years. Otherwise, when we talk about generational identity, were really just talking age cohorts. Were talking about groups of people were born in certain year periods, right. And thats useful. Its useful to us to sort of collectively to talk about culturally. We all what it means when we contrasted genx, gen z, for example, or when we talk about the silent generation as opposed to millennials, we understand those distinctions because its easier than saying, you know, people born before World War Two or, you know, people born in the last 30 years. Right. Those are just easier of talking about it. But then, of course, there are also useful aspects. Generations, pollsters find it useful marketers, find it useful, and it is more useful to say this group of people shares this particular thing. And weve seen over the course of time that being born in sort of, you know, within the span of a certain period does tend to to certain shared inclinations that becomes useful for people who are doing analysis of what america is all about. So what does it mean to a boomer and how is that different from what it means . Be, for example, a millennial. Sure. So i mean, what it means is different than essentially how the generations constituted. Right. And so when we talk about how the generations are constituted, there are some really sharp and important distinctions between boomers and millennials or more broadly, people of boomer age and older and of millennial age and younger, of gen x, of which im a member sort of constantly being that forgotten middle child as, as im about to do here. But the baby boom itself, you know, consider that the baby boom emerged at a time in the United States when immigration was really at a low. There had been a backlash to immigration from europe in the early part of the 20th century. There were laws on the books even as the boom preventing immigration or tamping down on immigration broadly. And so at the time when the baby boom started, immigration, the average immigrant, someones grandpa, right . This was someone who had immigrated from europe, you know, 20, 30 years prior. It was a whole different scenario. And then after the boom, immigration was relaxed again. Immigration laws were relaxed. So you start to get a lot more people from asia or people from mexico and Central America. And that really changed what america like, you know, in a way that has become a really fundamental part of how we talk about american politics, which im sure were going get to. But, you know, it means that the baby boom really is much more white then Younger Generations, that the Younger Generations literally look different than did the baby boomers. At the same time, Younger Generations continued the pattern that we saw really start with the baby boomers of being more likely to go to college and less likely otherwise to participate in institutions being Less Beholden to Political Parties. The boom had a lot aspects of that relative to their elders, but weve really that continue with Younger Generations. And so now we have Younger Generations, much more highly educated than was the boom. Theyre much less likely to participate in institutions much less religious, much less likely to be members of Political Parties and all of those things are differentiators both culturally and politically, from people who are members of the baby boom. Mm hmm. And so how did members of the baby boom generation potentially create this reality . My generation has been born into, right . Their impact on the workforce, the economy, on culture itself, sort of what did what we have boomers to thank for. Yeah. I mean, literally everything. I mean, modern was built by the baby boom. Right. And you know, the way to think about it is first. I mean, we were bad understanding the scale, the baby boom in part because all of us living in america that was created by the boom. There are very few americans who are still alive today who preceded or can even remember what life was like before the boom emerged. But consider that in 1945, there are about 140 Million People in America Total over the course of the next 20 years, about 4 million more people were born, right . So more than 50 of the total population in 1945 was born in the 20 years following that year. Right. Thats a massive shift. And so what you started to see is as the baby boom got older you started to see a lot of things start to break. You started to see, for example, hey, look, all of a sudden the diaper industry is this boom industry, you know, like a bronzing shoes became this massive, massive business interest that made tons of money. And then very quickly that ended, you know, the boom. Then those werent lucrative anymore. And we saw that same pattern that the analogy its often used is a snake swallowing a pig, right . That you start here and the snake gets fat and then it gets thin again as the pig baszler. Its an extremely gross analogy, but i think its an apt one. And so we see that as the boom is moving through through American Culture and society, we said you have to build a bunch of schools because the baby boomers arriving, you have to start figuring out what youre going to once they graduate from high school like, you know, where are the jobs for them . Maybe they should all start going to college. Thats one of the spurs for why people start going to college. You had the vietnam war, right . You a lot of people being drafted into the military to go serve in vietnam. There are all these aspects of that are related to. This the scale of the boom and. Then you also have i know this is a long question, long answer, but here we have it. You also have the fact that the baby boom is helping to drive economics broadly. Right. So they get to their teenage years. Theyve got to do a lot of disposable income. You have the emergence of television right at that moment. You have the emergence of things like, you know, transistor radios, cars. These things all combine to create this massive cultural and economic thats focused on the baby boomers. And my thesis is in part that time the baby boomers got used to being that center of attention. And so now as that power is starting to go to Younger Generations, the baby boomers in the unusual position of being the ones out of power or with decreased attention paid to them. And i think that too is undergirding some of the tension were seeing. Mm hmm. Well, i have to say, i appreciate calling the baby boomers the me generation, because as a millennial i have been on the other end of receiving the me, me, me generation moniker. So i appreciate you pointing it at others. And this right of the snake swallowed a pig is is kind of gross but very apt. And i will say were very talented at dealing with metaphors in your book because you deal with something unpleasant. True. Which is that as generations are born, so too must they perish in. I dont think ive ever met somebody who can talk about death with. So metaphors and different ways of sort of talking about it, smoothing it out. Yeah. Yeah. And so. So tell about, you know, in many ways sort of this cultural, economic power that boomers had that theres maybe one final act of of power left in the boomers briefcase. Yeah right. So, i mean, the people who are most fine with talking about baby boomers dying is either baby boomers or people who do research on death. Right. I talk to them like, oh, yeah, theyre going to die. But, you know, i mean, its just its its a little shocking because its, you know, outside of our cultural norm in terms of how we talk about it. Yes. Baby boomers are getting older, right . Right now theyre in their midfifties the mid seventies. Theyre aging baby boomers are increasingly they make up most of the retiree population at this point. They are increasingly making up more of the number of people of, americans, who are dying each year. But that said most you know, there are still a large chunk of baby boomers are in their midfifties. Right. The baby boomers are going to be around for decades to come. And so there are a lot of questions about what happens. So, yeah, if we think about it with the peg going through the snake or going through the python, be more alliterative. You know, eventually to the end of the snake. Right. But youre still seeing that swelling at the end of the of the snake. And so i spoke, for example with a woman whos involved in the Senior Housing industry and theyre just like stoked, you know . I mean, theyve been waiting since the mid 1940s for a to be there turned to reach their end of the python. Theyre here. Although its to note Senior Housing is really aimed at people even still older than the boomers. So they havent even gotten that. You know, the pigs are starting approach them, but theyre all these factors, the all these end of life decisions, all of these factors that come into play when youre talking about elderly that are now starting to apply to the baby boom. So, for example, medical costs, right . Care, care of of of elderly people, the fact that america is going to be much older in the immediate future than has been in the past also means that there arent going to be as many people paying into government that are needed to help take care of the elderly. Right. So so theres going to be this new additional strain by this massive generation. Finally, the age at which they start to retire and start looking towards end of life. And its really not even clear how america is going to be able to adapt to that, given patterns that weve seen. Mm. And so, you know, i think thats such interesting point and one that was very salient, as we think about the concerns Everyday Americans have today is, the economy, jobs, their Financial Futures and knowing that we are store for potentially quite a large disruption the workforce over the next couple of decades. Where do you see some of the opportunities for our country or for folks who are in charge making these Big Decisions to really prepare selves for this oncoming reality. Yeah. I mean were already starting to baby boomers become a declining portion of the workforce. Right. I mean to this is what happens you know is is is is very much foreseeable. But i mean, i think to some extent, i mean, obviously, there are a lot of the economic picture over the course the past two years in the wake of the pandemic has been extremely complicated. Thats certainly true. But absolutely one aspect of the search for to find people to fill jobs is that you have more people retiring. So the people with whom i spoke did one of the things they pointed out was we need to figure out how were going to bring more people into the country. We simply need to either we either we need to substantially contract the economy or we need to bring more people in to do those jobs. The birthrates not doing it, the american birthrate has been fairly and declining over the course of the past several decades. I say that like sort of doing it off the cuff, but its been declining over the over the short term. And so when you speak with sociologists, when you speak with demographers, one thing they say is we need to figure out immigration. We need to have we need to we need to have a if were going to have a society that looks like what it looks like now, that has people are filling, particularly the Service Sector jobs are going to be increasingly left open. We need to figure that out and of the things they point out, is immigration. Mm. Yeah. And so you mentioned in the book, im going to read a quote here, the political choices that the voters make will be more concerned, essential for the direction of the country than their own Financial Investment and consumption. And so for all of their participation in our economy and the workforce, you see their politics is actually one of the more significant contributing factors to american society. Why is that . Why do you see that . Well, there are two reasons, really. The first is that when we talk about how the baby boom has approached power as its gotten older is there have been a lot of examples of baby boomers sort of building up barriers around own power. And when i say power using power in a very broad sense, im not just talking about, you know, holding the gavel in the house of representatives, talking about, you know, homeownership. Im talking about things like investments right there. There are all ways in which power as manifested in this Massive Group of people, its really, of course, to have the caveat that im saying that all baby boomers are rich. Baby boomers have a lot of aggregated wealth. But thats because there are so many boomers, you know, on a per person basis, the boomers are no wealthier than any other generation. But because of such a massive generation, they hold much more wealth and they have held much more power and theyve managed to make changes to preserve power, a way that reflects the that they just simply have so many more people who are interested in doing so. So you have that issue. You have the issue of baby boomers who are trying to preserve power. But, you know, more broadly, you also simply have this this increasing challenge between the boomers and Younger Generations over what power looks like. If baby boomers choose at this point in time, while they still have power to either side with the millennial side, with Younger Generations or unilaterally in places where have the ability to do so, to do things that change what american politics looks like, what american economics looks like, to increase example the supply of housing there all these choices that can be made while they have power to then reshape what the future, both immediate and longer term, look like, should they choose to do so. And thats thats the point of what ive seen. Mm hmm. Yeah. So and we recently saw a house leadership, actually, in age by a 93 years with former Speaker Pelosi passing the gavel to or passing the the title to two hakeem jeffries, the other three. And so that kind of jump right in 93 was almost a century younger in in. What does that do for potential future of of congress the potential future of policymaking . Yeah. No, that was a really fascinating you know, what was additionally fascinating about that moment was that the conversation prior to that happening was really on generational change. There was a lot of conversation within the Democratic Party, even when joe biden was running for president in 2020. We need to have generational and better reflect younger america. And in part, thats because democrats are more likely to be young than are republicans. Right. This is a whole different aspect that the overlap of younger america and democrats which im sure well talk. But yes, we saw broad conversation about the need for generational change. And one of the other things that you see, too, is that when you track the age of congress over time, basically from when the baby boomers got to the age, when their kids first start serving in the house, you saw the average age of Congress Sort of with the boom. And just now, for the first time, you start to see it start to dip back down. Youre starting to see boomers lose hold of that power, which again, of course, is, you know, part of the part of the genesis of the book itself. So, yeah, that was a really fascinating change. And i think it really reflects the Democratic Party recognize this that it is dependent upon younger, younger being a relative term, you know, 50 and under, for example, for their future, future success. Mm hmm. Yeah, i love that. Saturn. My organization, millennial action project, actually recently tracked an increase in the number of young people running for congress. An increase . 57 . This year. Weve got 91 millennials and one genz or add being sworn in, having just been sworn into to congress. And so we are starting to see sort of an uptick in the number of young people. And one of the arguments that that you make in the book is how shifting demographics of our country have actually contributed to this current moment that were in of toxic political polarization, sort of the role that that boomers and now the rising impact millennials and gen z have on sort of that reality of the polarization that were living in. Can you tell us a little bit more about that . Yeah, i think really important to understand that when were about america and contrasting like the baby boom with Younger Generations, were really talking about two different demographic groups of people. Right. To the point that i made at the outset the baby boom was much more heterogenous or much more homogenous. Yeah, im stumbling over my four images in this. Lee. Much more thoroughly white than generations, in part because of immigration and just simply because of what what america look like at the point in time. And thats changed over time. And so you have this Younger Group voters thats much more black and black and asian and hispanic particular than was older generation. And so when we its very hard to extricate race and age to large extent because we know that black americans and hispanic americans and asianamericans all vote much more heavily democratic than do white americans. And that holds to at lower age levels. And so when we talk about what the future of american looks like when we talk about some of tension, when we talk about the reaction to barack obama being elected president , you know, that was that the reaction was theoretic when we talk about Something Like the tea party, theoretically on taxation. In reality, when you talk to researchers, the people with they spoke were the tea partiers were frustrated about their tax dollars were going and it was going to things like paying for immigrants coming to the country or paying welfare programs. Right. And those, of course, are intertwined with issues of. You also hear when you speak researchers who look at this that one of the frustrations was that barack obama. So to younger americans in that you all these grandparents were frustrated baby boomers frustrated like how could my kids vote for this socialist is how he was viewed and, you know, portrayed on fox news. And so you really saw 2008 as being a point at which the tension came into sharp relief, really saw the first big gap in old and young in terms of how they voted. And that was absolutely intertwined with race and was absolutely intertwined with age in way thats continued to this day. And those kinds of phenomena tend to be much more visible, at least on the democratic side of the aisle. Do you see you write about the political influence of boomers as being very visible on the right . Do you see the of the gop adapting to what did you say the fading of the boomer generation to replace that with younger voters. Yeah i mean this was the idea after 2012 right that the Republican Party came into the 2012 president ial race thinking okay we got this mitt romneys going to age out. Barack obama are going to get things back on track and then their surprise that mitt romney lost and so they engaged in this this in the at in the wake of that election they engaged in this what came to be known as the autopsy in which they got a bunch of senior officials within the Republican Party. They sat down, they did research, they looked demographic trends. They looked at what was happening and they put together a set of recommendations included among which was, we need to do a better job reaching out to nonwhite americans. The problem was for the republican that by the time that report out, you know, in the aftermath of 2000 election, you had two things happened in 2014 that reshaped the political narrative. The first was this surge in unaccompanied minors at the southern border young people coming from mexico and america, predominantly actually Central America coming into the United States and, causing a crisis for the obama administration, but also a massive backlash on the right. And then you also had the emergence of black lives matter, which really drew attention to the saliency of of interaction between black people and police. And so both of those things helped trigger the rise of donald. And donald trump came out of the gates. You know, first thing he said essentially when he announced just kansas in 2015, as he spoke out against immigrants and spoke out against immigration. And he really showed that while the autopsy of gop after 2012 had said, hey, we need to figure out a new path forward and reach out to people donald trump showed. Well actually we can still wring a lot of political power out of really quadrupling down on our appeal to, you know, often xenophobic white america. And thats what donald trump did over the course of the next. Whats it been now, you know, seven years. That said yes, over the course of the long term, i think weve seen some softening of the Republican Partys positions on things like lgbtq issues with obvious, you know, aspects that apply there and on things like Climate Change relative to where they were 15, 20 years ago. The gop position is softer on those things than it used to be. Even if its not necessarily where it wants to be. And i think that is in part a reaction to the electorate driven by younger americans showing that their past positions were simply unacceptable in a lot of. The ways in which its difficult to talk a generation without over generalizing it can be hard to talk about politics, just the national level, right . And so as we think about, you know, some of what you write in book about the importance of state, local politics, whats happening in our neighborhoods, in our communities, where do you see some the generational impact of boomers is sort of paving the way, what the future looks like for Civic Engagement or democracy really starting at the local level . Yeah, i mean, its really when we when we talk about that, not talk about Something Like housing. Right. And so i think everyone whos under certain age recognizes that the housing process in the United States is a challenge. You know, that it is hard to afford a house. Its hard to find access to a house. You know, that the the perceived path, which isnt necessarily always accurate, the perceived path that existed 70 years ago in which you sort of had a good job and you worked at the job and you can afford a house you can have a family and you know that that path, which wasnt always, is as smooth as wed like to think it was is very hard to accomplish. And thats true. And thats in part because of, as we talked about, the baby sort of saying, okay, well, we own houses, lets do what we can to protect our housing, which is in part its worth noting because a lot of boomers using their houses as retired meaning selling their houses when they get older. And so theyre trying to protect the value of it. Now, by building these walls around homeownership. And so you look at the systems that are designed to actually make homeownership easier right. And so what happens when you want to build a new house in most places, the country, you have to go through a review process. Theres some Fascinating Research and cited in the book where they actually went and looked to see who was participating in those review processes and the people who are participating are homeowners and. So they even looked to see, you know, what happened when when the pandemic hit and, you know, it wasnt as though you had to be a retiree sitting home who had the time to go and do this. You can just call from home and participate in the review process. It was still mostly homeowners. And so those people are driving where new houses get built, driving the objections to them. And thats an example of a place where, home ownership, which is heavily, you know, more heavily happening among boomers than among Younger Generations, helps drive local politics. Right. And so i think part of it obviously is, to your point earlier, simply engagement, getting engaged in local politics, understanding what happens with local politics. But i do think there needs to be changes in the system. There need to be changes in the ways that we approach things like zoning, which is obviously this Massive Movement looking at it. But there need to be changes along those lines for there to be something affected that will benefit people who are younger. Right and i think, you know, you talk about zoning and most peoples eyes maybe start to glaze over. Its not, you know, the sexiest issue to get engaged around, but your point is that need to prioritize issues that are reflective of, those generations who are coming into power, who are becoming, you know, the dominant generation in the country and so perhaps sort of making sure as young people experience these these problems, theres folks in positions, political power, who can actually prioritize and debate and on on the topics that matter to a new generation. Yeah, but this is this is a great point. Is that part of the reason the baby has so much power now and well continue to have so much power over the course of the next ten, 20 years is that they vote more heavily, right . Its not complicated. And everyone says this you say it all the time, right. Im sure youve had this conversation a thousand times. If young people voted more, you would have more of a stake and more of a say in whats happening, you know, between that and the fact that that over the course of time it is more likely that white americans will continue to be citizens as opposed to nonwhite americans, the higher percentage of them. So. So when talk about things like the demographic shift that a lot of white americans are freaked out about that americans will majority minority thats actually not going to happen in terms of representation and political power simply because of those differences in citizenship. And that again, comes down to voting. More americans vote. If you have that power to vote, the more you do. So the more power you get. Mm hmm. Its almost a chicken and an egg problem because faith in our institutions has declined. And, of course, that faith is what inspires to show up to a political primary in the first place. And so where do you see some the realities that . Millennials and gen zers have grown up with the partizan gridlock. For example, of factoring into how we decide to flex our generational power and what that looks like in terms of politics, also in terms of, you know, other ways of of shaping what our society like. Its great question. You know, there are a lot of people who spend lot more time who are much brighter than me, whove tried to focus on how you get younger people engaged. And particularly given the fact that, as weve said, younger people tend to be less reliant on institution participation. Theyre more likely to say for that their political independence than they are members of Political Parties, even if they end up more heavily democratic. So how do you how do you rebuild that faith in institutions . I think part of it is simply having honest conversations with folks. I will admit, i dont i dont know what that is. I think its very difficult in moment because we have this very polarized media economy, not that media is all powerful, but you have these two media universes that are talking against each other, one of which i like to think is more reality than the other. But its just difficult. Its difficult when there is so much to be wrong from you have an anti institutional and often dishonest approach to american politics at bay, an approach that is really based on division. Theres lot to be gained from that. You know, as we saw with with the rise of donald trump, who obviously was not known for his honesty or his his you know, his efforts to build a big tent. And so dont know what that looks like and maybe what it looks like. We just slowly very, you know, over course of time, we very slowly watch our politics and people regain their confidence in. But i dont think theres a short Term Solution. So you raise some pretty serious concerns since youre like the paul revere of the are passing away. Pay attention. You raise some pretty serious concerns about whats to come and are there sort of paths motives that you see or opportunities that you see over the coming decades that that you want to highlight . I think that we have a lot of opportunities in the moment to recognize where we are and what america is doing and what america looks right. You know, i think one of the things one of the central themes of the book really is the overlap of age and race and that is because i believe that a lot of the tension that exists in the moment is foundationally rooted in concerns that immigration and race in particular. And so theres an entire chapter of the book, you know, that looks at, for example the extent to which projections that america will become majority minority are accurate, and its rooted in you know, the Census Bureau is really great institution. And i rush to say that because i think they do great work, but they are bounded by the data they collect and theyve tried to make it so that they can collect a and more more complex set of data around race in the United States over. Time has been hampered by that, including during the trump. But so, for example the Census Bureau projections, last time they so was in 2017, they projected certain percentage of america will be hispanic. You know, up until 2060 or so. Those projections are based on assumptions about hispanic american selfidentification over time. And one of the things that other research has shown is that hispanic americans are less likely to identify as hispanic in future generations as they are longer, as they have been in United States longer. And so, you know, things like that, we are there was a lot of discussion about when america becomes majority, minority that is rooted in assumptions about how people identify their own race they may not hold up. You know the other aspect of it is the census. For me, this really fascinating change between 2010 and 2020 about the amount of information they allowed people to submit to describe their own racial background. And so, for example, can describe your background as, you know, im white, but i also had relatives come from africa. Im also part portuguese. And, you know, in the past that would have been truncated to white or white and some some African Heritage right now they allow you to provide lot more information that they then have to hand code essentially. And that led to this big surge this big surge between 2010 and 2020. And the men in the percentage of people who said that they white and some other race and then we hadnt seen big jump before and it was largely a function of how the Census Bureau recorded it. And so to some extent, you can at the america as already being much less solidly white than we have perceived as being that this change changes already happened to extent. And i think that the because its so important how talk about demographic change in terms of the response we get politically i think its important to recognize nuances here as a very long answer and i hope it was i hope it actually sense for viewers. Think. Yeah i think thats an important topic to to sort of spend a few moments on because the changing racial demographics of this country are so important to acknowledge are going to impact every facet of our society. And as somebody who runs an organization of millennials and gen z or is it something i think is a is a priority to our generation to to really acknowledge in a way that, you know, to go back to the beginning of our conversation is full of the complexity and nuance that a topic big as race deserves. Its not that all people of one certain racial makeup are all vote same. I believe the same thing or the same of money. And so i do think that sort of to your point of the diversifying nature of our country, creating these really helpful fracture points or, diversification opportunities in how we think about what our society has been around, how we do things, what what sort of the status quo having an introduction of of new faces and new centers of power. I think thats a really important thing to to discuss. And i just want to commend you for for focusing heavily on it in the book because its impossible talk about the future without sort of underline in the impact that race is going to have on on, on our country. I mean, and theres another aspect here, too, that that your your your remarks made me think of, which i think is worth highlighting. So we talked a little bit about how the election of barack obama 2008 really, you know it for a Certain Group of americans really exists a sense of concern they had about what happening in the country. But yet Something Else happened that time which you obviously as someone who does a lot of work with millennials, Younger Generations knows is that social media emerged and social media really individual americans, an opportunity to be and seen by other americans in a way that exist previously. You know, i quote a pr rep in the book who talks about how you can be sitting in your bedroom in cleveland. You get a million followers overnight. Right. And that can happen. And all of a sudden, not only. Is it the case that, you know, we, the baby boomers and other who are concerned about these things and not all baby boomers are to your point. But all a sudden, not only are they generally concerned about whats happening in the United States and, you know, the decline of white america, even if theyre concerned, it not explicitly but implicitly then all of a sudden you start seeing the really really prominent voices of particularly nonwhite americans that that are being elevated and Young Americans who may be nonwhite and that you that would in the past not have been able to be seen would not have actually had as prominent a platform in American Culture. Now just being able to do so and being very present when you had things like, okay, which is the millennials using social media to have a very direct like know to hell with you guys thing which you know end up in generational battles are not new, but in the past you couldnt simply make viral song that blasted the older generation. So these are new aspects of it as well that i think are worth remarking on. Another that you focus on in addition to to to race is education and how Younger Generation begins look a lot different in their educational makeup then than boomers did. Tell us a little bit about your your research there. Yeah. So essentially the line is look like this when you when you start from the silent generation through the baby boom into gen actually into millennials the density of College Education in those groups has steadily increased so boomers were much more better educated then much more better educated and not reflecting well on the subject. Classic gen xers right were much better educated than their parents. Gen xers were better educated than their parents millennials better educated than their parents. Right. And so one of the things that we see is we see this confounding of education, other issues like race and like living in cities and all of these other aspects which also overlap with democratic politics. But its very clear that better educated, particularly more recently, have been more likely to vote democratic. It has this effect on politics, but it also appears to be the case that people who have college, whove gone through that experience, have a broader sense of acceptance of culture, of different people, of different scenarios. Right. Some of it certainly inculcated in the classroom. Some of it, of course, just by virtue of the experience. And so we see that as really being that can be determinant if youre trying to identify how people, you know, peoples worldviews or politics, College Education can be very effective in that. So we see College Educated young people voting much like College Educated older people, even members of the baby boom, because they have that thing in common. Its just that there are so many more educated millennials and gen zers as a proportion of those than was the case with the boomers. Mm. Yeah. And so that makes me think, you know, we focus a lot on differences between the generations. Are there any notable similarities that, that you out or that are worth highlighting as we think about what next few decades looks like. Yeah. I mean i think its really important to your first point, the first point you raised here that the boom is not the one solid mass. Right. That there a lot of baby boomers who dont any of the things that weve been talking about. If you look at the backlash, Donald Trumps presidency, the resistance movement, who was that by . It was led by older women with college degrees. Right. Is led by boomer women because thats know the boom itself is not something that is homogeneous. Right. You have all these different elements to. And so i think that you have lot of baby boomers who have been exercising their political power in ways that actually reflect what millennials and gen want to see that actually are voting along the lines of of what Younger Generations would want. Right. And so we talk, for example, about how what future looks like is dependent to some extent upon the we make now. Boomers hold a lot of power. Boomers are helping to make those decisions, and theyre not always doing it in a way that solves a stick or selfish in in a way people can sort of assume the boomers a very big generation has a lot different elements to it and is you know, i think that there is a point allegiance that can be raised there as well. Yeah. And we do tend to talk about generational warfare much less frequently about generational cooperation. Right. Do see millennials as standing inherit the economic boom that the that the boomers were. Were at the vanguard of of creating is again i mean if over us youre i mean this is this is a this is an important question right is what happens with that wealth thats been accrued by the boomers. Again, on a per capita basis, boomers are not particularly wealthy relative other generations. Right. It is simply that there are so many of them. They have this wealth. But, you know, i spoke with experts, Financial Experts who estimate that, you know, were talking trillions of dollars in the change hands already in 2022. They anticipated that they about 2 trillion was transferred from boomers to either other generations or to institutions, you know, and thats not all. You die in. And you have an inheritance. It is things like investing in College Education or buying houses for young people. Right. There are all these ways in which that and so its not really clear and part of the reason its not clear is its not clear long. Baby boomers are going to live the longer you live, the more likely you are to have to pay things like, you know, advanced medical care and Senior Housing. And thats going to draw down the amount of money. You have a lot of a lot of seniors on fixed incomes from social and things along those lines. And its clear if they live longer or how that affects both the Social Security system broadly and their own finances. So were not really sure we know that the money will be ongoing. It necessarily must, but it may be going to Health Care Facilities right at the moment. And im sure a large chunk of it will. So, yeah, i mean, i think thats thats an open question and one that i think is largely unresolved. You know, theres another fascinating point that i uncovered as i was writing the book. A lot of older people have debt. You know, some of it their own, but some of it on behalf of younger people as well. And so those are things also are going to tap into the wealth of the baby boomers. Yeah. And are these issues that you see being resolved public policy, is it something we need to be asking politicians to really focus on now . Or is it do you think, something that is just part of the process of of and time and where the cards fall is where they fall. What is the best way to prepare selves for for sort of this transfer . And what do folks need to be now to help smooth out transition . Yeah. I mean, youre absolutely right. A lot of this is simply just the nature of people getting older. But the baby boom is exceptional. Were having people getting older now than weve seen any point in the past, and thats going to change how these things work. And so one of the one of the things that emerged as i was talking to experts for the book is that there has always been this tension between, what sorts of investments we are making in ourselves, right . So for example, lets say we have a fixed of dollars, should we put more those dollars toward Senior Housing, recognizing the people getting older, or should we continue to put it toward education of young people because we need to make sure young people have good educations. Whats the balance thats drawn there and whos making the decisions about that . So this gets into the whos voting more question, right . You know, if baby boomers are voting more and theyre more worried about having the financials report for Senior Housing, youre going to have a lot more investment in Senior Housing. You again in keeping with the python, swallowing the pig metaphor there that youre going to see start, start seeing more of a focus on that sort of spending unless we make different decisions. So, yes, there is that element attention. But because the boom is so big once its breaking, that standard interaction and we really do have to start making decisions about how were applying Public Resources and which groups were applying them to and how and, when. And one argument i would make is having more young people elected office can really to bridge were at to where we want to be in terms of just elevating the types of issues that that matter to future generations maybe operating from less of a short Term Solution and more of a long Term Solution knowing that the decisions that i as a young policymaker might make are things that im going to live to see the consequences of. And so know as we as we set up a generation of lawmakers to focus on some of the issues that you see as critical to backfilling potentially some of the holes that the baby boomers might leave when when they when they fade. Im going to need to look at your sort of lexicon of polite way as they battle, as long you try, i think you get credit. But but are there recommendations that you would sort of solutions that you think are really important and to focus on now in order set up long term sort of preparations for our country and for of the rising generations . Yeah i mean, i think there are a couple the first is that i would say that we need to have more nuanced understanding race in america and the ways which america has been shaped by immigration is shaped by race to this point. And we are not necessarily heading down this this path in which america suddenly doesnt look anything. It used to we had the exact same debate a century ago when we started to see increased immigration from eastern and southern. I see the exact same. I being a little melodramatic, even. Obviously it was different in some substantial ways, but we had a debate over, you know, is this is this somehow polluting the United States . We had that same argument and we collectively resolved and said, no, not right. So weve done that before. So i think thats a key aspect to it. I think the key to it is, is Media Consumption and extent to which we consume media that reflect the way in which we want to see politics, which i dont think is healthy, useful, really. I think were all of subject to it. And thats just to some how the world works. But i think we need to figure out a better system for people getting thats accurate and, you know, free or doesnt cost a lot of money and is actually something that reflects a sense of American Culture and society. You know, and i think that we also just need to have more people of different and different age groups and different race involved in politics and decision making. I mean, to your to the point youre just making. I spoke with the legislator, alex lee in california, works in the house in the state assembly, just won reelection there. And, you know at the time he first won, he was living in his parents house because. Housing was so incredibly expensive. The bay area where he lives, you have an actual frost who came in, you know, the first genz member of Congress Gets to washington. All of a sudden he discovers you cant rent a place you so raising his rent the applications rejected right. Having them in positions of power is good because. What it does is it forces those sorts of issues which affect a lot of people, doesnt affect anyone in congress. Save mr. Frost at this point in time. But in fact, a lot of people are having people there who are cognizant of that and have that lived experience, i think is important. And yeah, another anecdote. A young person that i know who had to suspend their campaign because their roommate moved out of their apartment and they got priced out of the district that they were running to to represent because they couldnt afford to live alone. And so, yes, to your point, sort of making a bunch of changes, a bunch of different places in order to to of support this changing landscape of political power, i think is very important. Or at least having someone in the room whos cognizant of it. Yes, right. Mean its not even necessarily the case. So we need to overhaul everything, but just to have it on peoples radar screens is important. Yeah yeah. And to to be somewhat fluent in, you know, being able to to to share experiences. And 11. That you just mentioned is Media Consumption and how have a conversation about what is happening. And it strikes me that, yes, millennials and gen really came of age in a time where the news and media landscape looks very, very different than how it looked when when boomers came of age. And there was, you know, a lot more centralization of information and credible ways of disseminating sort of truth. And especially as a journalist, you know, i would love to hear your thoughts, sort of the current media, how we change the conversation or how we the conversation in order stabilize, perhaps how we how we operate from sort of a shared set of facts and truth. Yeah. I mean, this is a huge question and its not one. I have a answer to because its youre right i spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, i work for the washington post, i write articles that reflect what i believe to be Accurate Information about the. You know, of course, ive made mistakes. I was made in the past. But our too because its you know, its a high quality publication. We charge people to see what we read. Right. Whereas you get twitter accounts that spread misinformation, explicitly false information or or present news through a lens that reflects a particular worldview that are free. And, you know, you have blog because like breitbart, where you can go and read whatever breitbarts take is on the world, you dont have to pay for. And so you consume that. I mean, there there are all theres this this interplay of economics and accuracy that think is challenging in the moment and i think its been fostered to a large extent by the rise of social media. Social media has been a huge boon for the news industry because we get a wide variety of voices that are able to share information and off, you know, offer opinions on whats going on in the world. Thats been really, really, really, really good on that. But at the same time, it also allows people to cocoon, in their own universes of how they want to see things. And youve got things like you went on that arises result of that obviously problematic, you know, satanic cult of pedophiles, something that people believe is not ideal. We should not we should not encourage that. I dont what the future looks like, though. I dont know what it looks like due to to increase a interest in receiving information because thats really what its about. If you want to pay for the washington, its because you want a certain standard of quality in your news consumption. And if you dont care about that quality of news consumption, youre not going to pay for the washington post. Youre just going to go and youre going to follow Jack Posobiec on twitter or whatever. It happens to be, right . I mean, there are all these other avenues for you to get information if dont feel like paying for it, youre not particularly worried the accuracy and you want it to reflect a worldview that you have. Then you can get that and you get it for free and its engage and it gets you mad. Its fun, you know . I mean, there are all these aspects to it that traditional news outlets are disadvantage like the post and i dont know what the to that is and if you do please like lets work on it. Yeah and i wonder how much because younger have been at the receiving end of so much advertising right. Its just been like supercharged how much potentially our own internal b. S. Meters have become more sophisticated rated than folks maybe grew up in the Walter Cronkite era of this is where truth comes from and sort of an inherent higher level of trust in the information that theyre receiving, whether or not millennials and gen zers because we are swimming in just sort of spin and and bias if the next few decades look like us having maybe a more refined ability to to discern truth from fiction and there is research that suggests thats whats happened, right . Yeah, ive seen research that actually suggests that there isnt a big generational, but ive seen research which i tend to think is accurate, which suggests that actually Older Americans are worse at up false information from true information in part. Because youre right, they grew up in an environment if it said, you know, x source or ex post that you believe it because the news didnt go out of its way to mislead you. And so we saw, for example, in 2016 when you look at there were a lot efforts in 2016, particularly before twitter, and facebook cracked down on the spread misinformation. You saw a lot of people, particularly in Eastern Europe would stand up these website. Were just total nonsense. Just completely. And theres this great reporting done by buzzfeed and what they discovered was in macedonia, these kids made these websites that were just myths, misinformation. They said, you know, the people who believe this are trump and they tend to be Older Americans. We tried it with, you know, with democratic candidates. And it just it didnt bite. Like there just wasnt as much uptake. And i think that we see these patterns that are reflected in our lived experience, which match the research, which suggests that because younger people did come to come of age in this, when you have to be wary of the source of information youre getting that theyre better at discerning things that arent true. So so we only have a few more minutes and i really want to get to perhaps some, some concrete stories are examples of where we see shifts or folks prone, engaging to guard against some of the shifts that we see on the horizon. Are there places or policies or ideas that you have seen start to take root that can really make sure that this of generational power bween boomers to younger happens as smoothly and effectively as possible and really sets us up for a in which folks are thriving. Well i think the central issue is the one that you indicated or the one that we discussed earlier, which is just getting people to participate. Im not like im gen x. Im not going to say what the best policies are for millennials and gen z, because i cant speak to that. Millennials and gen z can speak to what they think the best policies are for themselves. I think what we need to Pay Attention to is the extent to which they are represented in participating in the process, having them run for office, having them vote more. I think thats very important to have that representation, as we said, that voice in room. I also think that some comment baby boomers to be aware of the fact that they are an exceptional generation, that they have held power for long, that they may not even be aware of the extent to which theyve held power, they may not be aware of the extent to which they are exceptional. And so the first part of the book really looks at that and really tries elevate. Look, this is a unique situation. You are a unique group of people and you need to be cognizant of that because that uniqueness tends to make you sort of isolated, solipsistic as a collective, not individually necessary, and make decisions based on that. And i think its important to elevate that. This is a very Different Group of people in american history. And i think, you know, the entire thesis of the book is that a contributor why we are why are where we are right now in the country . Because this group that has held power for long may not even be cognizant of is now competing with a group, people that is, you know, the same size as they are for the first time in american history. Yeah. And you know, philip it strikes me we do often skip over poor gen x. What is the role that gen x has to play this moment and or do you see it as sort of matching being in power . The subsequent generation, millennials, gen z sort of. Where does gen x fit into all of this. For all the gen x viewers right now. I mean, look, you know, its im glad i am gen x because i can i can sort of be dismissive, a way that isnt cool putting out, but, you know, i mean, essentially, you know, americas population went big baby boomer will be gen x, right . And so there really was this dip just simply are fewer gen xers that was that was the the emergence of x marked the end of the baby boom. There a change in a downshift in the number of babies being born there are just simply fewer of us. And so you know what what power do we hold it also the gen x, you know, when we talk about how big generations are because. These are sort of arbitrary. I tend to use the Pew Research Center definitions of the generations, but gen x also was fewer years. So that makes the generation even smaller. You know, look, what do we do where were going power for a little bit until the millennials surpass us. Like thats just thats thats how its going to go both in politics and culturally. So, you know, gen z moment were starting to see, you know, we saw the super bowl year had, you know, dr. Dre and eminem and all these gen x hip hop stars and know were all again, we realize were old because. All of a sudden it was our turn to finally have our artists be at super bowl. But thats, you know, were going to have our moment and its going to pass quickly and so be yeah, its its pretty when you turn on an oldies station and you hear music that you actually grew up a volunteer. Exactly. Yeah. Thats thats tough. If you could fast forward 30 years, 40 years into the future, i think the year that you that you cite is 20, 60. Yeah. What does what does america look like in that moment and are there sort of working backwards from that just important milestones or moments that that will be important as a country for us to sort of unite around in terms of making sort of a productive 60. Yeah. I mean, ill caveat it by using the example i use in the book, which is that in november 19, you could not possibly have what november 2020 would look like right now span 12 months. So, you know, im looking forward, you know, 30 plus year so so please if future historians do not hold me to this but you know what the Census Bureau tells us is that demographically, at least what america is going to look like is what florida looks like now. Its going to have the same density, you know, much heavily old, much, much higher population of hispanics and asianamericans and africanamericans, you know, that collectively the nonwhite population will be larger as a relative to the overall population than the United States is now. Does that mean then that america politically looks like florida . I dont think so, because Florida Politics right now are driven a number of different things, including that the population in florida is very heavily white, more conservative than i think, the older population will be in 2016 that, you know there are obviously unique characteristics to the hispanic population in florida that may not carry over the way to the United States, but thats essentially what americas going to look like. Its going to look demographically like florida. But i think its hard. You know, one of the experts with whom i spoke is a political consultant who does a lot of work in florida. He pointed out that over the years, theres this anticipation that florida is getting less centrally white. You know. Does that mean that it starts to move to the left . Obviously thats not what weve seen. But again, you know, does that example hold as does america continue to look like florida politically even if it looks like in florida demographically, i would suggest that it probably wont, because i think that in part, the Republican Party really needs to try and do a better job of reaching out to younger americans and changing its policies to be responsive to them and simply part because, you know, its a long time and you know, i would never want to say that i can speak definitively to whats going to happen in a 35 years time. I think a lot of us are out of the prediction game. Oh, yeah, right. So, phillip, thank you so much for your time. I recommend everyone your book. It is informative. It is funny. It is terrific. Philip bump, thank you so much. Of course, announcer after words is one of our programs where authors are interviewed by legislators, journalists and more. You can watch every sunday on cspan2 or anytime on a website, booktv. Org. 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