We will be discussing shakespeare and the rules of war. At this point i just want to remind everybody to please hold your Electronic Devices and to let you know that video and photography are forbidden. It is my honor to introduce tonights moderator. Is a member of our board of trustees. He has chaired our annual fundraiser for many years. He is the head of Government Strategies at mcdermott will. He served as general counsel to the Senate Committee on International Affairs alongside others. He has served as deputy counsel for organized crime, directing investigations. Other criminals during the reagan administration. Represented a Financial Literacy group over the past decade. It is my honor to welcome him. [applause] thank you very much. Honor toleasure and bring this group of speakers to you. Youre going to have a great evening tonight, it is a part of our classical theater where we tried to relate Current Events while thinking about the rules of war. For being a part of our group. Tonight the first panelist i would like to introduce is my favorite author, bernard cornwall. [applause] so, what do you say about a guy who has written 60 books and he is your favorite author . You tell people if he has not and seeing it or trade by sean being you have not begun to live. He began in the tv business at the bbc. His books have been turned into some of the most notable productions. A greenriginally denied card for entry into the United States. Then he has sincet spent a great deal of time with us. Stories are really about english history. The last kingdom is just a delight. We fight over the books over who gets to read it first. Hopefully you have seen that on the bbc. Important to our work here in the theater, he has continued to write and is currently writing a book about the first productions of shakespeare. I am sure we will work that in. Thank you for being here. [applause] we should really , dale thank you. [applause] the general is a spook, he was the president s first Senate Confirmed director of national , and information sharing executive for the director of National Intelligence phr. That was his title. Ok, spook. O is also an expert on international strategy. Intelligence and military 9 11 the general was in command of the airspace over america. The warriors we are going to put as chiefhe also served Information Officer for the air force commands. At one point he control all of the satellites that are in orbit. We cant talk about that. He became the first chief of Information Officer. You can see a pattern here. During desert storm and other wars have been an has fought, he experience on who to target, what the package what like, how to justify to do. We are uniquely pleased to have him with us tonight. [applause] so, now, on the artistic side of this group we have the real pleasure to introduce to you one of the hottest young directors in america. Now, one of the great things about theater is because joe pat gave michael kahn the gig of running a classical play in new york at a very young age. He took the same thing of picking out the hottest young directors and bringing them to work on classical plays. Macbethbe directing on may 1. I asked her if i could get around calling it the scottish play. She said you dont sound the theater person. [laughter] she was born and raised in south africa during the apartheid era. That experience, obviously, is something to reflect on today. Her family moved to massachusetts when she was 15 and she received her from the smaller known college of Brown University and the trinity repertoire. Shes directed theater all over the United States and shes known not just for classic plays but for bringing out the personal experience and stories of people to light. She believes theater should be meaningful. Dont we all . And able to change the audience. One of her latest productions, tells the story of five liberian women who try to survive toward the end of the second liberian war. This production actually became the first ever all female cast play written and directed by a female to premier on broadway. I will pause for applause on that. [applause] last summer, she made history as the first woman of color to have a tony award nomination for best director for production of eclipse. Shes now in rehearsal for the for her interpretation of macbeth. We will talk about that a little bit tonight. You have got to come and see it. Anyway, thank you very much for taking time for rehearsals to come tonight. [applause] this is a starstudded panel but here comes the big stud. [laughter] and that the honorable ryan zinke of the secretary of the interior. [applause] so, heres Teddy Roosevelts roosevelts successor as the owner of public lands. This man controls one fifth of the landmass of the United States and he has a property that he is a controller of in 12 time zones. He used to serve as a member of house of representatives and immediately became a star on the hill. That is the production we do. We still have the pictures of that. [laughter] he went to a very famous literary school, buds, basic underwater demolition and became a seal seal. There are many books coming out of that and he has a terrific book that im going to recommend to you in a moment. He was a navy seal for over 20 years. He deployed and carry out [applause] the mission of our country and he directed the training of the seals and he trained the men who killed Osama Bin Laden and carried out all of the things that were necessary to protect us. So, ryan zinke, not only is a warrior, but trained warriors who still protect us today. At football. [applause] at football, he was the center of the oregon ducks before they were cool. [laughter] they were really close. I have to Say Something that was improper. Many women fans thought he had the best butt. [laughter] with that you have a warrior was is now a member of the cabinet of United States and hes taken time to be with us tonight to talk about this. I want to say i want all of you to read all 60 of bernards books. Every single one. [laughter] i also want you to buy zi nkes book. It is a terrific book. It, before he he was going to be secretary of interior, he talked about his philosophy for public lands. I want to give a really warm welcome to secretary thinking zinke and the rest of the panel. [applause] now, because been armed is bernard is one of my favorite authors, thats a conflict of interest by the way, i use this to ask my favorite authors. I will ask them to start off. Off this discussion about shakespeare and the rules of war at this time and bring them forward two to ours. I know he will Say Something utterly entertaining and you will love it. Thank you. I dont have a lot to say that shakespeare in the rules of war. Have a great evening. [laughter] he does mention, but he does not call the rules for. He calls it the laws of arms. At the end of henry the fifth , talking about something thats happened on the battlefield. He said it is express against the lord of arms. What was it that shakespeare saw was if you look at the prospects of what you said it, it seems obvious. Henry the fifth was just killed. An incredibly brutal passage of the battle. The french attack in two ways. Both ways had been repelled. Many prisoners have been taken. Prisoners were kept for ransom. They were sold behind the english lines. Suddenly a third line seems to go out to advance. What henry says to prisoners who havent had the hands tied, will join the battle again by attacking his been from the back. He ordered them killed. That isnt what he is complaining about. He thinks thats a good thing. What he is complaining about is [inaudible] right around the back and they invaded the english camp. They managed to steal all the crown jewels and they killed the pages. What he is complaining about is that they simply killed them, and that is against the law of art. I think something will probably keep coming up this evening because how do you impose law on warfare . Warfare by its very nature is lawless. We educate our children and say thou shalt not kill. And then we train them to be killers. This is the heart of western civilization and others, too. Way back in the 12th century, they tried to draw a distinction between what he called homicide. Homicide and malicide. Homicide is illegal. Its murder. Malicide was killing somebody who is evil. That runs all the way through law. What shakespeare is saying is you can kill someone who [inaudible] is that a law of war . Youre a lawyer. This is the only panel that has one lawyer. I brought reinforcement. [laughing] its still pretty remarkable. You have more degrees than anybody ive ever met but not one with a law degree. [laughter] the very first attempt to codify the laws of war and i am sure was called the lever coat. It was drawn up in the united 1852. States in by a man whon up taught at columbia, south carolina, then moved to columbia. When he fought at waterloo he was a 21yearold boy from prussia and his Sergeant Major was a woman. She had three decorations of bravery. Everybody in the army knew she was a woman. They thought she was terrific and he fought all the way through waterloo with her. Lever two up a coat of war which is very much the ancestor of the geneva code today. You cannot kill noncombatants. You mustnt use poison. You mustnt kill the wounded. Im not condoning this story, but it has relevance to shakespeare. The British Marine royal marine sergeant found guilty of murder because he had shot a taliban that conviction of murder was turned into manslaughter and i think he is being released from jail. Im not condoning what the man dead. I dont know details of it, but im sort of proud to tell you that his last words to the doomed man were hey, mate, its time you shuttled off with this mortal coil. [laughter] it is true. [laughter] would be you he entertaining. Hello. So, for all kinds of reasons this is probably my seventh production that dealt with war on stage. And possibly because of the way i grew up, possibly because the way i came from and activist family, its something i spent a lot of time in my childhood thinking about and observing. I have directed a play which took place and what had to be staged was government soldiers and two different kinds of rebel soldiers as well as civilians and miners all in one space. , it was onlypsed five women, but the skills with which it was written really got a sense of the larger civil war all around you. Ive also done a play in europe which is about Doctors Without Borders and the experiences that they had. It just seems be something that i keep coming back to. So when michael asked me to macbeth, my job as an artist and as a director is to do test analysis, get into the mind of the writer, the playwright and try to understand what he or she is trying to talk about. And then think for me, think about who my audience is and think about especially with classics how can i get this story into their life so theyre not sitting back and watching a experience, like wash over them. It has to feel immediate for me. I dont see any purpose in going to sit and watch of keith a satedthat makes me feel and safe. So after i excavated macbeth, the fact that i was doing in washington, d. C. , and i thought that what macbeth is about that ive never seen when i seen a production is actually about grief and grieving for ones country. And that is certainly something i can relate to. There were books written about my country, books called cry, beloved country. Feel,e grief had the same having a dictator, tyrant in power, and the question of what has to happen to leaders, to citizens, to make them take up arms in their own country and fight civil war. That to me is the center of this play. And every scene that sort of every scene of violence is about a father losing a son or a mother losing a daughter, or a child. The message that sends to me from shakespeare is that he is trying to show the personal cost of war. We come from a country that loves to glamorize violence, that loves to glamorize war. So i took that challenge from shakespeare and i took it very personally. So there are strands of this production of macbeth that are really about what it feels like to be inside of a civil war and what the personal cost of war is and what grief for your country is. [applause] in washington, by the way, youre not allowed to have a cabinet lot lead off, but ryan zinke is actually quite a humble man and said he would go third tonight. Its truly an honor to be with you. My background, as commander. Upfront i was never the best jumper or diver, explosive expert, but i know who was. I was also a commander of special forces in iraq. So my experience is a little different. I dont think we glamorize war, at least not those who have fought. I think the decision to go to war for those who have fought is a solemn one. I, like many of you, are a father and i dont want my kid ever to go into war and less unless we can win. And the rules of engagement are part of it. But i think we owe it to our kids as we send them in the interest of our country, want to make the decision if we have to go to war, but you need the right equipment, the right training, the right rules of engagement. And i would say you would add one more. We have been in battle for longer period of our nations history by almost twice with the right pause. I will explain that. But the rules of engagement today are much different. Seals look at threat, nonthreat. If a threat is clear, engage it. Eliminate the threat. But what is a threat in a symmetrical warfare . Is that a person with a gun . Is that the person with a cell phone in the corner . Is it a person that is supplying the ammunition, the intelligence . Its a difficult process to. Ort and select if you were to walk in to an iraqi location where theres a group of people, how do you sort and select who is who . Ando how do you sort select in this room if you have 20 noncombatants, five combatants. Are the combatants hardened or not . How do you do it . And ultimately that task comes to judgment. Thats why we rely on our nations best. It is a judgment call. If our rules of engagement dont allow us to fight, and in the case of afghanistan theres been plenty of cases where individuals go out, they are engaged in combat. There is in ac130 overhead , which is a gunship. They are engaged in combat and they dont get the support. The reason is because someone is making a judgment call on whether engaging that ac130 will lead to civilian casualties. In fact, if the enemy is firing from a building within the building, are they in fact enemy combatants . But when you are there and you are being fired upon and your teammates are getting hit, to not have the equipment available to you, i can tell you, if they cant depend on going out, and all these operations are wellplanned and they have their Quick Reaction force when you go out. They will climb it. Trouble, how fast can the calvary get there . Do they have artillery . But if they go out and get engaged with the enemy and they cannot get aid, they are smart, they will not go out. Or they will turtle up. When they do go out, they will go out heavy. They cant rely on any other force to render aid. So ill go back to the most important part is you got to trust your people. And thats where training comes in. Nobody that i know of thats fighting wants war. Is it because weve been engaged in combat the longest period in our nations history . And my daughter, i told her to think. Dont join the navy and dont marry a navy seal. [laughter] she did both. Shes a navy diver. She married a navy seal. Hes a fine young man. Hes a senior chief. He has gone to war at least 12 deployments. 12 times. Normal to him is not here. Normal to him is over there. Because he has spent more time over there than he has here. So how does that affect him . I need to go to the Grocery Store with him because hes aggressive behind the wheel. But the pause, because when these troops are coming back and were fighting so much for so long, they forget about normalcy in our society. They become hardened. Their judgment on the playground is threat, nonthreat. Thats why we fight over there so it doesnt come here. So im glad to be with you, but i can tell you this. In my experience, you should never ever engage in warfare and unless you get the troops what they need to win. Your sons and daughters deserve it. Unfortunately, we find we face an enemy that is determined, that place by no rules of humanity when you burn pilots in a cage alive, and you behead children. This is what we face. Its ugly. So with that, steve. [laughing] thank you. That was uplifting. [applause] and now if you really wanted to see what it looks like from outer space, you could ask dale. Dale, could you reflect as an air commander, your counterparts . Someone who shakespeare couldnt contemplate, talk to us about the air commander and the decisions that a professional soldier like you have that are different. Just think of me as he saved the least for last. [laughter] pause before we have q a. [laughter] i am pleased to be here. But what the secretary talked about had a lot to do with when are eye toie you eye. But the rules of war, the rules of engagement extend everybody who was in support of it as well, or somebody whos detached. Ill give you when i conclude my remarks, ill give you a real instance about how rules of engagement in fact, change how we fight, change how we fight even today. Even though it was 21 years ago. The element of rules of engagement are not that old. In fact, they are an outgrowth of the korean war. Because the joint chiefs of staff to get out that weve got a new framework for conduct of operations, combat operations. The idea of war and world war ii and previous is gone. The idea of limited war, the idea of all kinds of other things fall in the shadow of the cold war. And so i think its important to realize the basis of rules of engagement. Theyve got a political purpose. Theyve got a military purpose and they have a legal purpose. They also have to expand all the way to the people i represent down to all levels, ranks, services, to the people that secretary represents, folks on the ground. So rules of engagement are classified. You may or may not find that hard to believe, but large part of them are classified because a lot of them are related to tactics, as in what weapons you can use, what targets weapons can be associated with. To include what we can spy on from space. Because remember the purpose of the rules of engagement, a political purpose, military purpose and it has a legal purpose. And every rule of engagement has to extend to those. Another thing thats a little it different that have evolved since 1986 is that there are standing rules of engagement that exist all the time and apply to all military people, whether they are engaged in combat or not. Oftentimes we think, well, there there are rules of engagement for people in theater in southwest asia involved in this operation or that operation, but every military person in service has a set of peace time sustaining rules of engagement, which i think you might find interesting. They are, you can protect you can use deadly force to protect yourself and your unit from deadly force. You can use deadly force to protect civilians, noncombatants and also designated properties such as the red cross, churches, hospitals and such. Those permeate all the rules of engagement that the United States military fights with. The thing to remember is that not all countries go by the same rules of engagement. Not all countries necessarily see the International Rules of law. By the way, most of those International Rules of law stem from the creation of United Nations in 1949. When you hear phrases like law of armed combat, that refers to the United Nations, United Nations type of things. During the q a, if somebody without looking on your google can tell me when the last time was the United States declared war and when it and who it was against, ill buy you a drink afterwards. [laughing] so the element of rules of engagement are very, very important, and become a bible that every military person has in combat. So i will run through very quickly one of my early times in rules of engagement, and youll see how complicated it can get. And think again of political, military and legal. And so this has to do with the balkans. Late 1996. And we are looking to introduce for the first time largescale combat drones. I think Everybody Knows what a drone is. The nickname of the drone at the time was the predator, by the way. Is United States air force about to retire its last predator in about a month or so. It will be replaced with a new drone. Force, you dont ever want to call it a drone. Its a remotely piloted vehicle, just so you know. And so we were deployed under a Coalition Force with a nato flag. And so were introducing a different weapon platform here now, it wasnt going to carry a bomb or bullet, it was going to carry cameras. But we first had to go through the element of making sure that the rules of engagement could be adjusted under nato rules to allow for a platform that have never been deployed by nato before. So again, think of those three elements of political, military and legal. So after we go through that, we still cant get it deployed because we are looking at basing out of italy and weve already exceeded the number of troops that treaty says we can have stationed in italy at any one time. So my team got the task of figuring out how to deploy drones in combat without having people that either operate it , look at the intelligence or potentially even today pull the trigger, not stationed in the theater. So think of the treaty implications that we had to do connect satellites back to Beale Air Force base, thats in central california. And so for one of the first times we are actually executing combat operations from california over the balkans in eastern europe. But that still didnt cover all the rules of engagement, because then there is the element of what are we allowed to share of the platform and what troops can be u. S. T, and can it led . You get the idea. And so the business about legality and all that, and he can remember, nato doesnt necessarily have the parameters of rules of engagement. The United States does. So the rules of engagement in essence become the bible about the conduct of combat operations in the modern era. And i look forward to your questions. What did you all do today . [laughing] bernard, lets talk about hred andsharp and ut the characters that you created, and their sense of the rules of war. Would those characters recognize ryan zinke . Your characters have to get in and rules of engagement is to win. The important thing is to be on the winning side. He wouldve been tried as a war criminal. Thats what he said. I dont think he was. Im sure you dont think it was either. When it comes to sharp, there were rules of engagement. In the sense that obviously if youre in a battle, you can rench,at the fringe, f which is always a good thing. [laughter] the duke of wellington was incredibly clever. One of the last things he wanted in the battle of 1840 was to invade france. He really doesnt want the french has a view to write up against his neighbor the way the spanish conducted the guerrilla war against the french. The french had stolen food, killed animals. They treated the population incredibly bad. They turned them into enemies. Duke was determined this was not happening in france. He knew the one thing you had to do was you had to buy food. If you went to a village you bought the food that you got from the villager. [indiscernible] duke said in an order out to the army and he said i want every convicted forger in the ranks. [laughter] 40 men turned up. And he gave them a whole lot of english and spanish and portuguese money and said turn it into french money, which they did and it worked like a charm. [laughter] and the french peasantry did not fight against the British Forces and he did not suffer guerrilla war. But again this is very different compared to the problems that you face, which is far more complicated. When we talk about protecting civilian life, that has not always been true. Going back to early Medieval Times, it was a crusade. It was led by [inaudible] it [indiscernible] it was brutal, bloody, horrible. All happening to get in the of france in the pyrenees. Finally determined the march had enough and he said you cant do this to all towns, whole villages. Weve got to stop and sort them out. No, kill themaid, all. God will know the difference. Thats actually very good theology. Youre right. Youre a good christian. What you complaining about . You get to go early. We know its wrong. Its horrible. In the 15th century, the french would come out and fight. So you went up to destroy whole districts, burned the farms, destroyed these vineyards, anything to do so much economic damage, poison the well, that would bring an army to fight you. So that distinction i made earlier with shakespeare and henry the fifth, that it was against the law of arms to kill those who are not combatants. Thats not been true throughout history. In the 30 years war, it was a terrible slaughter. By the Second World War with area bombings, women and children become targets. I am not sure about the rules of engagement. After all, what do we fight for . We are fighting for civilization. We are fighting for a way of life. We are fighting for the rule of law. And if we dont fight for the rule of law, we are barbarians. When you see what isis is doing to its prisoners, to the women they capture, to the slaves, that is why we are fighting back. We are not fighting against religion. We are not fighting against the country. We are fighting at this point for civilization and of the rule of law. So yeah, we have to be lawabiding in the way we fight. It is a terrible burden put on our troops. They fight, they get loaded, they risk their life. Then we have lawyers. [laughter] ok, bernard, thank you. [laughing] how do you as a director bring the arts to address the depth and the loss that you talked about in your conception of macbeth, which i thought was very important and moving and i hadnt heard you say that yet. This is really quite interesting. What role could arts play in an era of this kind of complexity where you have someone killing civilians with sarah and with sarin gas, where we have people who cant be trusted with Nuclear Weapons, obtaining them. How does the arts fit into this . What do you say to the world that has gone crazy like this . Yeah, its a good question because its times like this that artists always ask themselves why am i an artist . When a society is in crisis, is this the best i can do with my time . But audiences continue to flock to see, to look at stories about their lives and about our society and i think why people cant make sense of whats happening in our world, story telling becomes essential. For me,t have to its really just about looking at the Big Questions of the moment, like shakespeare did and trying to tease out the things that will help people in this moment make sense of their lives and make sense of the chaos, i guess. You know, when i was putting ,ogether the ideas for macbeth one of the things you do as a director of classics is to personalize. One of the questions about the show, what are the witches in, because i wasnt going to do a period piece. Its not what i do. Sorry. [laughter] one of the witches today, someone whos going to whisper in the air of a general, of a thane, and suggest that they should be king. The power of suggestion to an ambitious and slightly weak leader, who benefits from that . So as i kind of put the project together, i kept coming back to the question of the witches. Magic and that power of suggestion and changing the course of the countrys future, coming out of the civil war and finding peace, and in starting another civil war. A power grab. And what i only can do is apply my own experience, and that is a person who is from the continent of africa. And in my experience, usually theres a western power that wants our stuff. [laughter] our diamonds, our oil, and they need a leader that will help them get that stuff. Im grossly oversimplifying, but its real. Ive traveled all over the continent of africa for work and for other reasons. And this this is a thing that never stops. Corporations getting access to resources at the expense of citizens of that place. So as i started to put this production of macbeth together, i placed it in north africa. It became a central focus for us, and the witches became representations of foreign interests. Because that is who would profit from influencing a military leader that was extremely ambitious. And as we started with this project, i hired a consultant in terms of the violence and the war component, something really interesting came out and rebuilt and we built the production around that. But what was also, part of the reason i did it is because you have child soldiers. You have highly trained soldiers , you also have rebel soldiers. There so many Different Levels of discipline and brutality going on at once in our present life. And i was interested in finding a way to talk about all elements of that, and actually macbeth created an opportunity for that. Even though that description sounded simple, im actually interested in the complexity and im interested in showing, because there are no good guys and are no bad guys. Theres only what are the motives . Every single actor on my stage, we have to talk about their character as if they are good guys so that they can connect. Iron out all the aspects of it. We have to show every Single Person with compassion because thats how we get to complexity. So, you know, this question is we live in a world full of chaos. For the couple of hours that you come to the theater or would you watch a film or you read a book, you could potentially track a person or a few people through the beginning, middle and end of that story and feel maybe a little bit of order which will help you put the life that were re living right now into some kind of perspective. Perhaps help you cope, i guess. Ryan, you trained the men who killed Osama Bin Laden in many and many of the other seals that were on that team. Would you talk about how the laws of war impacted that mission and what your thoughts are on that . Well, a lot of it has changed because of technology. I came to the seals in 1985 when many people do not know what a seal was. And when i came in, the ability to remotely look at operations, to remotely make decisions, was really nonexistent. The first time it really happened was bosnia. But when you have surveillance tools, and that allows your commanders to look at you on the , if its a high priority target, dont move satellites over. They will watch it realtime. Whos making the decisions to engage . Is it the individual on the ground . Is it the individual in the helicopter . Is it a commander . Where . Is it the theater commander or is it all the way back . And your perspective from a person whos been there, your perspective and youre on the ground taking fire is a little different than when youre in the white house, in the situation room. Then you get a judgment call all the way out. You have a vehicle coming in. High rate of speed. Are you getting engaged or not . Whos making the call . And when do you engage, when it gets to the gate . In the case of some recent activity, the engagement, well, we know they are bad, just how bad are they . And when are you going to when they shoot . There,r kids are out when they shoot at us, then we can shoot at them . Again, from the ground perspective its too late. Another thing that has changed is electronic eavesdropping. It has been in the news a lot. [laughter] its been in the news a lot, about the ability to eavesdrop, and on whom and who makes the call. Is it englishspeaking . For a while we only looked at foreign websites and foreign languages, because if you are an english speaking, it could be an american. 90 of the world speaks on platforms that are englishbased. Most people have a cell phone in here. Most people have a smart phone. You might be amazed how those can be manipulated. When youre taking a picture of, how do you know that picture gets captured in your camera . How do you know that the picture when you are looking at it, it doesnt have the ability to be andsmitted in the airwaves so people can look at not only you. Those are societal questions that we have to ask. At what point are we going to mitigate risk . What point is liberty going to prevail . Whos going to make the call . What checks and balances are there . Rob oneill in that operation was watching. It was carefully orchestrated. Was as good as they are, also a seal, the commander. It was nearly flawlessly executed, but they are trained over and over and over and over again. And they had, in my opinion, the nations best, if not one of our nations best forces on it. That had not only strategic implications but it had National Implications not only for us finally giving him but also a signal that we are willing to go and take risks if the target is as important as it was. But again, i think the point of this section is the remoteness and our ability to watch things so far is not free. It has consequences. My opinion is, the checks and balances are important. One branch, one unit should control the power, should have the power without a second look. Because it can go awful deep, far beyond war in everyday life where we have to be very careful about it. Im about to ask dale the last question and then its going to be time for your questions, so if you would take out the cards you have and write down your questions. We will be streaming your questions because youre that type of audience. [laughter] minutes, our0 staff will lock down and take those from you. If you could in the next couple of minutes write any question that you have. Maybe will do that or maybe we will throw your card on the floor. But we will ask some really good questions that you ask. So dale, what i took is bombers over tokyo and blue the city apart, not with a Nuclear Weapon but with conventional weapons so the point where in max Hastings Book on the end of that war he said a human remains blown 5000 feet in the air into the bellies of the airplanes. So that was the war the last time somebody flew airplanes into things that belonged to us. Then we had 9 11. And now we have this era of the ability of everyone in the world to actually watch whats going on and what happened from Satellite Photos they could take the next day of an event. What are your reflections as a Commanding Officer about airpower in this new era . The only words that came to great military strategist, tactician and stolid tv show, sergeant schultz, i know nothing. [laughing] the thing that desert storm really kind of got people to believe or think is, is that you can watch every single expenditure of munition. That was largely done because of airpower in space. That was largely done because the cameras that were in the front of the weapons that actually directed that munition to a particular spot could coordinate. The United States military can from some miniet number of miles up in space to several miles under the ocean. All we need is a grid coordinate. Once they are given that grid coordinate, that grid coordinate will blow up. Thats a tremendous responsibility. And technology is what allows us to do that. And so its very, very incumbent that when you train people in a system like that that they are not checklist followers. Humanhey are rational moralswith ethics and and that they are continually monitored for their ability to exercise balanced judgment. So i got firsthand experience in this after 9 11. Ok, so i often hypothesized by the way, did you say i had ten minutes . No. Two minutes and you are one minute in. [laughing] but on the tenth of september, 2001, if i told you the United States military was planning on shooting down civilian airliners over the United States, you wouldve had us courtmartialed and put in jail. Of september,h 2001, you were perfectly willing to let us do that. And so, so what affects folks that deal with air force engines with the air force and things like that, it is you go to work and you deal with lifeanddeath matters decisions, and then you walk out the door and you go to your kids soccer game. And then we experienced that for probably the first time in the balkans when we had people stationed on the boot of italy. They would fly over the balkans, come back, go to their kids soccer games. The mental gymnastics that you think about and how you prepare and train your people to understand how to compartmentalize in the right way and use the right moral judgment is absolutely crucial. And its just as crucial for the person sitting back in the United States looking at targets somewhere else in the world as it is for the people on the ground. But like the secretary said, the perspective is different when youre in the field. Im going to come back, bernard, we will get the audience questions now. What would shakespeare think about a panel like this tonight . Would shakespeare just say i wish to write plays, i tried to make money, i had a very nice life . [indiscernible] romeo and juliet. He didnt know what he was talking about. Laurence olivier said that human [indiscernible] they are running hamlet at the moment in london no less than four hours. My god. Sorry, what were we talking about . [laughing] so youre writing a book about shakespeare now and about that play, and youre getting inside the head of shakespeare to bring them to us the way im really not. Its really an impossible thing to do, like getting inside the head of mozart or jane austen. Oo special. Im getting inside the head of his brother. [laughter] he had three brothers and one of them is a historical novelist [indiscernible] because he had a birth date and knew nothing else. Actually nothing. We know he lived. Im not tied down for making what shakespeares plays. I actually think my fans will hate this book because nobody dies and there are no affairs. [laughing] what about the battle . There are no battles. But there are plenty of fairies. Im waiting for the cards of your questions, but greg copley, stand up. Greg is a global strategist, and tomorrow in your email, those of us who bought a ticket from us are going to receive a paper that we commissioned. This production is really pretty slanted. We have a famous global strategist whos written a paper for you on shakespeares time that i think will actually hopefully cap off the experience you had tonight. Im waiting for those questions. Anytime now. [applause] there he is. Thank you so much. Nah. [laughing] zinke, are you impressed or inspired by a particular shakespeare play . And would you bring the president to our theater . [laughing] dream. Mmer nights of course. I continue the president is a good boss. He doesnt micromanage. He gives me a call once a week and asks me what i need. Hes a good boss. He knows our country. Im a Teddy Roosevelt, i like our country, but this piece of history we are going through, we better figure it out as a country. We are all better in the same boat. We can debate about which direction we are going to go, but we need to be in the same boat. And i am a Teddy Roosevelt guy and we are all americans first. Before were anything else, we are all americans. I think the president would be delighted there we go. There we go. [laughter] [applause] so this is a gathering of lawyers, so i want to celebrate tonight the elevation to chief judge United States court of general claims, judge braden who is here with her clerks. I cant see you. Where are you . [applause] there you go. They are only working a half day today. They were able to knock off at 7 00. [laughter] she said that she is a huge fan of your books. [laughing] im going to actually hand this to you. Would you read the question and then comment on it . Ah. Tales,of your [indiscernible] oh my god. Can i give prospective give this back to you . [laughter] [indiscernible] old english phrase which basically states this carries on anchorage right through to shakespeare we had the wheel of fortune. And people did believe in a sense this is not the same as predestination but there is a sense of that, that you are helpless. Today we can control our fate much, much better. What people worried about in the sense of why did the river , flood . Why did a child die . Why is there a disease which you have no more control . We have more control nowadays. Not total control. And so why . Probably for the same reason you say prayers. You are trying to control things, for the same reason you consult a wise woman, same reason that you knock on wood. Because youre trying to control things. [indiscernible] i think most people in Medieval Times did believe in fate. So i answered your question. [laughter] so here is a good one. This one was particularly good. In shakespeare, bad things happen to good soldiers. A fellow, caesar, someone whos read the canon picked this seems to apply a sense of dollars in the scales of justice. Do the rules of war and rules of engagement in some way take their personal responsibility out of war fighting . How about we hear from a military leader and then liesl about that . General. [laughing] true passing of the buck. [laughing] thats an interesting supposition. But i would counter that again most of the rules of engagement are not necessarily prescriptive. They are guidance yes, there are things in there that you cant engage the target, you cannot engage that target. But there are also judgments held. When you take the judgment completely away from a soldier, sailor, airman, coast guardsen, marine, they then, your entire structure becomes, too many on your ability to preplan and pretill everything that could possibly happen, and again the first rule of combat is stay away from stupid. We are not perfect in being able to see what all will happen in combat. We are not able to perfectly judge all what our people if they speak were not able, if we were, then i might subscribe to your idea that the rules of engagement remove us from that destructive element. But thats not how they are constructed. For instance, the element of selfdefense, selfdefense extend to other people other than just your person. So what judgment or factors to use in determining whether the use of deadly force is really in selfdefense or not . So i dont see that the rules of engagement and i have written many, ive lived by many, and i have read a lot of rules of engagement. And they are not so prescriptive in every detail that the responsibility is ever taken away or the accountable is ever taken away from the individual at the point of execution. So liesl and bernard, in times of war, shakespeares plays and speeches have been repeatedly sent to soldiers and sailors and quota by our president s. In your opinion or experience, could you stand one more time hearing the refuge of really poor chaplains over our most Wonderful National cemetery across the way. So what is shakespeares most powerful plate or speech in this area . What do you think about any of the particular canon of that . Play . Henry and richards it you get your inspiration from, with regard to this topic in shakespeare . Do you want that . Sure. Its hard for me right now because im 24 hours a day with me right now. And something im finding really inspiring in his writing is how vulnerable he makes his soldiers when they talk about their country and their love for their country. Over and over again you have, the almost limit of poor scotland, oh, scotland, poor country, my poor country, weed for our country. Over and over from many different generals. I profoundly move once i start to track the pattern over and over again, and you know, it just, for me that was really the mode that guided me through the play. That the strongest characters with the most emotionally available when it came to expressing their love for the country. Well, i love the speech, i never was against it. I wrote a book on it actually. There were two chronicles and they both recalled what henry v said. The very last thing he said to his army before the battle began, and incredibly modern. He said, lets go, fellows. [laughing] lets go, fellows. What do you think. Mr. Secretary . Well, its hard to go after him, isnt it . [laughing] i would say this. Fighting as many wars words as our country has been lately wars wars ultimately havent changed. Wars have become very personal, and we talked about the remoteness. We talked about the technology. We talked about all those things, but the decision to kill or not to kill is corporal and is strained human nature. It has a strained a deep question. Do you have the right . Do you not have the right . Do you circumstances right . Weve got to look at that. That war is still unsettled. A lot of our veterans show up and they look at the time. They put their hands and rub against it, its a very emotional experience. Why is it unsettled . The nation was different, the rules of engagement were uncertain. And you look at todays world. Rules of engagement still are not defined as you would think. A lot of it didnt come back and had their legs blown off, they asked the courts why. Iraq, what have we gained . Iraq and afghanistan. But its the same question. When my buddy got out of it what did they do. The more you fight, the more it raises those questions and you see a lot of ptsd and emotional strength. Thats the same question. As what shakespeare faced. So as bright as we think we are, as americans or humans, i think it goes back to our experience. Im in austin is, by the way. From above where we come, what were doing. That weve learned about where were going to go. But we should ask questions. This is a great panel because it asks hard questions and looking at the audience, its a very well educated, local audience im addressing so its very difficult questions. Lets talk about leadership and war because one last area and i like to go through the whole panel but bernard, how about you start off because you mentioned e. S. Forster informed war into her early biographical statements in some of her early coat jackets, for that genre of writing which i believe very much informed english as a model but youve created new ones in your writing. Would you reflect on either fictional or real leaders and will go right down the panel on that leadership quality and perhaps you could talk about richard sharp. Is leading in the fight, i saw and then made a toll. [laughter] [inaudible] what i said is about leadership, i like ferries. Thats on the record. [laughter] i can applaud, i know what makes a good leader, ive been led. Im asking the program, but its a great one, the great thing is not making the wrong decision, its making their decision. We had a News Conference and he talked about film stuff and i think it was should we go this or that or altogether and this is my contribution to this contribution. I yield the floor. [laughter] its interesting this discussion, again i grew up in an activist world where the question of leadership was constantly a part of my childhood. For every daughter and good leader, what part of the congress ive been hearing back in the battle days of apartheid but this was a never ending examination and i grew up with a person telling me that is good leadership area and it has served me very well because i can say, just making a decision, be prepared to make a decision. Dont leave people floundering. In terms of effect, you have a leader that is a model leader, compassionate, his language, the language is incredibly firm , decisive and loving towards her things. And then you have High Contrast macbeth who is a rabid, who is paranoid and theres a line where they talk about how the soldiers dont fight for him out of loyalty. They fight for the opposition. And then fast forward in the play they talk about the english king whose the son of duncan for political reasons at the time it was a written, that king is no mother teresa. But he, shakespeare, unpacked all the different kinds of leaders and how soldiers follow and what makes them loyal and what makes a good leader. Its very clearly lined out in the play, its fascinating. One of my heroes and a hero to many people, i took my first of office in the 21st century and had a consistent jury in 1971. You can do the math. Im an old guy. And the thing that ive learned since then is not only is leadership important for you to do but can you teach others the elements of leadership as well . Because if its not teachable, its not sustainable. Though ive come to the conclusion leadership is about two things only. Exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising judgment. I put all else with regard to leadership secondary to what i consider leadership at any level whether its organization, individual or reputation of leadership. Exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising that judgment. Mister secretary. Probably trust. Well, we trust the writing, we have to trust. Right . If the decision is right. You have to have the judgment to know if youve made a decision not to be an ideologue. You have to listen and change based on new evidence, compelling evidence, just because in the beginning of a battle you go through and your planning and youd be surprised or maybe not that the first moment of a battle, most of the planning is pretty worthless. So you have to look at the situation and be able to react and use good judgment and leadership has this certain genocide clock. How do you get people to follow you . And that is an intangible asset. Whether its not you, whether its people that you care for, whether you know their wife or kids, their birthdays or something about them. Really talented leaders. You just want to follow them. Trust is part of it but thats a special part which makes the difference between you know, a major and a colonel and the general is that theres Something Special about them. And we had some pretty good leaders in this country. Ive been probably 63 countries in my time, botswana. Ive seen other nations as military leaders and we have phenomenal leaders in our military. That rise far above this country. Theres a few that are good. Id say the french. But i think that would wrap it up. Let me tell you we are planning another program, and were going to think about what truth theres lives were like in shakespeares time to now. Going to touch on what happened to prisoners then and i hope you enjoyed this program and we will come back to that but more importantly, i hope you will all buy tickets to tommys play. [applause] the thing you can do for us is become subscribers to the theater. Its wonderful to have this group and we have our participation with the members of the Supreme Court at the mock trial. We are so privileged in washington we get to know the justices as they come to dinner with us at the theater and they come to the theater to refresh themselves and so its a unique place and you are a unique audience and i want to thank you and more importantly i want to thank this great panel so when you show them some love western show them some love . [applause] thank you. Certainly. Thanks. Chattering} announcer cspans washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that affect you. Coming up, former president to morocco. Examining the trumps policy and administration toward russia. 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