>> next, first lady's influence taft.focuses on helen later, chinese foreign affairs minister talks about the relationship between america and china. >> helen taft was more ambitious about getting to the white house than her husband, william howard taft, and was willing to get personally involved in politics to get him elected. she overcame a serious illness to directly manage the white house. invited top classical musicians to perform there. helen taft also has one of the most visible legacies of all first ladies. washington d.c.'s famous japanese cherry tree. bring tens of thousands of visitors to washington every year. good evening and welcome to "first ladies." the life of helen taft. her husband served in the white house until 1913. here to speak about her life and legacy is her biographer. the biography of her is "helen taft, our musical first lady. you open the book by making the case that she is the most obscure of 20th century first ladies. why do you think she deserves better than being obscure? >> she did things that were very constructive. the cherry trees, bringing the classical music and musicians to the white house, and, generally, trying to make washington the cultural center of the nation. that was her ambition. it did not work out because of medical reasons. she had an agenda that would have made her rank with eleanor roosevelt or lady johnson in terms of transforming washington if things had gone the other way. >> she had an agenda to get her husband to the white house. >> the story is that she decided when she visited the white house, "hey, i want to do that as well." there are a lot of women who wanted to have their husbands be presidents. sometimes, she is portrayed as a cross between mommy dearest and lady may have, which is not the case. she was a much more constructive influence. >> helen taft has an interesting story. many of you in the audience will be hearing it for the first time tonight. you can be involved in our conversation in a lot of ways. send us a comment on facebook. we already have a robust discussion starting there. you can also send us a tweet, #firstladies. i want to hear this story. how did she get to the white house at age 16? >> her father in cincinnati was friends with rutherford b. hayes and lucy hayes and they went to the white house. she went only once but had not yet made her debut and could not yet participate in social activity, but she was there. president hayes said it was wonderful to have them there. in the past family lore, she was supposed to have said, i will come back. it is not clear that is really what she said, but like many people, i want to marry a man who may become president. >> she came from a political family. >> yes. her father was a friend of benjamin, and involved in politics on her mother's side. she was quite the intellectual. she was reading darwin and had the ability to play the piano, which she studied seriously. i wish there were recordings, and there does not seem to be. in cincinnati, a very culturally rich city in those days. they had seven hills. they thought of themselves as the rome. >> she was from a political family and the matter how much getting to the white house, how did she choose taft as her mate? >> they knew of each other in a small community. it was after he had gone to yell and come back for cincinnati law school that their lives again to intersect and they began to court. she was in her mid-20's, late for marrying in those days, and he was almost 29 by the time he gets married. they started going out to some of the beer halls in cincinnati and gradually fell in love. he was much more smitten with her originally then she was with him. but he proposed, she rejected him, a standard thing in those days. the woman never excepted the proposal right off. they had a rather lengthy courtship i our standards, which sometimes last all weekend. in those days, she made him wait a while, then got married in june 1886. >> where did she go to college? >> she studied a little bit at the university of cincinnati, but almost was self educated. took courses but did not ever get a degree. did not have a degree like her husband did. >> how common was it for women to go to beer halls in those days? >> it was not a thing. with its german community and stuff like that, it was where young people went. young people in the 80's had the same impulses they have today. that is where people went. they did not date quite the way they would later in the 20th century. >> william howard taft was not intending a career in politics when he proposed. >> he wanted to be a lawyer and get to the supreme court. he would later say, like any good politician, he had his bull turned upward when offices were falling in his lap. he definitely wanted to be chief justice of the united states from the time he learned about the law. >> william howard taft made good on his wish. he is the only president who also served in the role of chief justice of the united states. we will learn more after the white house progresses. how instrumental was helen in moving him in that direction as a politician? >> in the initial stages, she had relatively little influence because he becomes a state judge and then he becomes a solicitor general of the united states and is appointed to the court of appeals in ohio. she watched him do that. the big turning point came in early 1900 when president mckinley called him to come to washington and offers him a chance to go and establish a civilian government in the philippines. she says, take it. she says, by all means, this would give my husband a sphere of power and influence he would not have had any other way. that was the decisive moment in their lives when he was in his mid-40's, to moving to being in politics in a new way. >> we have to quote one from each of the test. to give you a sense of how interested the two of them were in politics, you could tell how much this really reflects their overall attitudes, from helen taft, she writes of her husband, mr. taft was all but impervious to any friendly advice -- we have a 1906 quote from william howard taft. he says, -- >> some of that was for public consumption. i think he pursued a political career with more zest than we sometimes realize. what nellie was saying is that he had a way to get people to push them in her direction he wanted to go. i think she is acknowledging he moved her as much as she moved him. >> a reference to his career and he mentions the two that were in the law. in addition, let's take a look at the political positions that william howard taft held over his lifetime. in 1890 21892, he served as ansolicitor general. he was governor general of the philippines. an important part in that country's development and our relationship with it. in 1904 was the secretary of war. they called the secretary of defense today. president from 1909 to 1913. ilater on, his life switched, think i likebecame the chief justice of the united states. of the early positions, secretary of war, which was most helpful? >> i think the governor general of the philippines made him a national figure. inwhen he goes to theodore roosevelt's cabinet, he presents himself to roosevelt as the logical choice in 19 eight. once roosevelt had said, "i will not run." anot run." he looked over the cabinets to see who might be his successor. eleanor might be too old, but there was will taft from ohio, a state that really mattered to republicans in those years, and he became the logic of the situation. >> very briefly, why does the united states have the ability to appoint a governor general of the philippines? >> as the result of the spanish- american war in the treaty of paris in 1898 december, spain aparis in 1898 december, spain ceded the philippines to the united states and they became the possessor and would remain so until 1946. in>> we have been taking you toa historic sites associated with herfirst ladies and their lives. we will be taking you to the william howard taft nationalis just asites in cincinnati. we hope those of you interested inin this series will visit some of the places we are showing you. up next, we will meet the super intendant of the site and he will tell us more about the time spent in the philippines by the taft. >> he got a chance to be the chairman of the philippine commission, and she jumped at the chance to encourage him to take the job. they took the family to the philippines. \she had a chance to travel around the world and also had a chance to introduce her children to this travel. she learned different languages. before she and the children got there, taft -- andmrs. taft liked to have dinners and incorporate aphilippines people. these are programs from the different rank that were there. you a youpeople loved william howard taft and his family. athey treated him just like inequals. mrs. taft invited them toas adinners. whatthey attended a lot of the youcelebrations. she liked to see the band play. you areentertainment was a big part of the things she did over there when in part of the philippines. this is where we keep more valuable artifacts as well as a a anon display.a a aas we come in, we see mrs.in a intaft collected a lot of andphilippines items. this is a storage chest theyare abought over there. youit was one of the items they were able to pick up while arewere able to pick up while youthere. some photographs from ladies in the philippines. ahey took some formal isphotographs here. they wrote inscriptions and gave athem to mrs. taft.a youthis is from december 22, you1983, philippines. those illustrate the admiration youthe philippine people had for herthe taft family, especially mrs. taft, as she worked to make hermrs. taft, as she worked to make them feel integrated in the greater society, make them feel you willequal to the other people, invited them to parties, put on youinvited them to parties, put on andmusicals and those types of things, helped with their athings, helped with their education. they really loved the taft's. awe still get people coming from andthe philippines and still youhave the connection from the taft family and things they did while there. >> joining the onset, a firstyou alady scholar. jane cook, how important was the in time in the philippines to the anddevelopment of helen taft in adevelopment of helen taft in youher role as first lady aechoplex very important to her anddevelopment.her you knowwhen she returned to theyou andunited states, she met ayou and i andmilitary wife in the army youmilitary wife in the army towho had known her in the philippines. she says, you were a clean in philippines. here, you are a nobody. i do not think helen ever thought of herself as a nobody. when in the philippines, she was not a queen. she served her husband very well by doing those things. >> how unusual was it -- in the piece, we heard she treated the philippines equal. we were in their country. today, we would think, why would she not? >> the army drew the color line, which meant, they did not associate with philippines. for them to shake hands with the philippines and dance with them was seen as quite radical. there were elements in the military that were not thrilled with what taft was doing. he would not have been able to do this in the united states at the same time. the philippines count in part for his and during popularity. they wanted us out as soon as possible. >> on twitter, they want to know more about what they thought about the philippine people and their culture when they lived there and how did it shape their view of the population as a whole. >> it was something she, by reaching out to them, she could see the benefit of bringing the cultures together. she was using her executive social skills and management skills, she would go out horseback riding and taft ordered a band for the filipino people. they would go to a big open space and have concerts. this was really something that meant a lot to her. when she wears the filipino formal gown, she is embracing the culture. >> she started in the spring -- what is a -- >> a space where, on sundays, aristocracy would gather with carriages and go around and have it was the social setting for high society in the philippines. she wanted this to be a place in washington to do that. it was very popular for the first couple of times. after the stroke, she could not personally manage it, but it was one of those false starts that characterizes her career. >> those of you watching us along the way know our goal this year is to teach you more, help you learn about each of the americas first ladies. in the series throughout this year, 20th-century ladies. earlier in the year, we did the first ladies beginning with martha washington. our goal goal is to present the biography of them to help you understand more about the president's administration and also about our country and how it changed and how the role of women changed. there is a lot to talk about. we will give you the telephone number so you can join into the conversation. -- we will love having your calls and questions. they have been a hallmark of the program. also, we developed a website for this series. at each week, there is one special item attached to the first lady we do not talk about during the program. today, if you go to the site, you will learn more about a chair she really cherished that she acquired in the philippines. back from the philippines, talk to me about a very important relationship, maybe the most important other than william howard taft with nellie, and that is the relationship with theodore roosevelt. >> will taft and t.r. know each other in the early 1890's. almost in the beginning, there was not still the same rapport between edith and nellie. nellie would say later she did not like edith roosevelt. there was a competition between them through the 1890's. she said, i wish i knew more about what exactly happened, but they struck odds when they started out. you had these two men who were very close, but their intimate families, not so much. there was not a strong underpinning of the male relationship once the two women were in close proximity. it had something to do with cincinnati versus new york, with edith roosevelt coming from an aristocratic family. helen taft wanting to be upwardly mobile. >> we learned that mrs. roosevelt had regular sessions with all the cabinet wise, which required attendance. what was the effect of those on helen taft and her own thinking about how she might approach the job as first ladies? >> they had weekly meetings in the white house library once a week. helen did attend. i think she thought they were too gossipy or the topic of conversation just aboard her and was not something she really enjoyed. she made it known to the press that she would not be continuing them because they had not been successful. that was quite a slam to edith to say that publicly. she could have been more genteel on how she transitioned. >> if you were with somebody who is not your husband, you heard from the white house that you better stop your there was a certain amount of gossiping that helen taft was not as hoity- toity as edith roosevelt. that was another source of tension. helen taft wanted to set a standard. edith wanted a higher moral standard. caller: hello. i wanted to know if you are familiar with the miniseries that aired in 1979. i want to ask mr. gold, if you are familiar -- that was really my first awareness of mrs. taft. was that an accurate depiction of her? i thank you. >> i think it was generally accurate. it had some fictional elements in it. i do not think most historians regard it as something you should take to the bank and be very reliable. it was dramatized for television purposes. it is a useful source, but use it with caution. >> theodore roosevelt asked him to be his secretary of war. how does that affect them? >> taft and nellie both loved to travel. he was on the road constantly. he became a troubleshooter diplomatically for t.r.. when he would go off hunting, he would say he left taft on the lid in washington, but he and mrs. taft traveled a lot, a story that illustrates her ambiguity about this, when she was traveling and verily garish very nearly missed the train and said, "you have got to help me out. i am mrs. william howard taft," no response. "i am traveling with alex roosevelt," instantaneously, they got her baggage and got her on the train. >> it had to be painful given the friction between the two. how common would it have been for senior public officials to see that much of the world? was there a lot of traveling going on in that time? >> at this point, with trains and steamships, yes, it was more common. secretary of war was but he was also called secretary of peace in the newspapers. he was really more of a peacemaker than he was focusing so much on dissent. there is a really great story about his time as secretary of war when helen is given a tapestry and she really wants to keep it. taft says, legally, we need to give it back to the smithsonian. she said, "i am a private citizen." she takes it to roosevelt and wants it that badly. roosevelt says, you are a private it is in. that shows the difference between taft and roosevelt. taft very much wanted to honor the law and roosevelt would push the envelope a little bit. that is a good way to illustrate the difference between them. >> that became a fundamental difference between them and the way they view the presidency. roosevelt said if it was not forbidden, we can do it. taft said it had to be explicitly allowed before we can do it. the two views of the presidency were very different that they had. >> a real study in leadership. on to facebook, holly wants to know how mrs. taft got the nickname, nellie. >> good question. a number of brothers and sisters. it was a family name. her husband refers to her as his dearest nellie. >> did she call him will or mr. taft? >> will. once people knew him well, he was called will. he was not bill or something like that. almost nobody called theodore "teddy" who knew him well. >> hello. what is your question? caller: i love this show so much. i know the president in order. two questions. of the more modern first ladies of the 20th century, who were the more noteworthy after, abigail and dolly, and were any of the first ladies in the 20th century noteworthy, too? my second question is, what was the inspiration for the cherry tree? thank you. >> the first question is easy. eleanor roosevelt by far became a delegate to the united nations so in the post first lady career, she and lady bird johnson, there are others, but those would be two. >> we will show video of it for later on. next is a call from leroy in kentucky. hello. caller: great program. i enjoyed this so much. i was looking forward to it last week. i did not get to watch it. i have got a question for ms. cook. were the taft family christian people, born-again christians? did they know jesus and study the bible? >> what was the religion and how important was it? >> she grew up in an episcopal church. he was a unitarian. at that time, the difference was mostly about the trinity or not the trinity. unitarians did not embrace the trinity. there is a story i read of a minister in the more traditional tradition who went over to the white house and talked to taft and he came away feeling confident in his traditional religious the leaf. it was important to them. they were not evangelical in that tradition. it was definitely something that targeted that. >> taft was to be president of el in 1900 and decided not to do it. he wrote his brother a sentence that if it had come out at the time, he would never have been president. he said he does not believe in the divinity of jesus christ. it never became known. in a campaign of 1980, he was attacked for being unitarian and having been friendly to the catholics in the philippines. t.r. and taft were cautious about how they handled their religious views. >> let me move on to calvin in georgia. i apologize, somerville, alabama. caller: i was going to ask you about the connection taft had with other first ladies that came from ohio, especially lucy hayes. >> we talked a little bit about that earlier. they were very friendly with the hayes family and they did entertain her at the white house. she did spend some time. later on she was there almost every weekend. that was way overdrawn. i think she was only there, according today's diary, once. >> she makes the decision she will not run for reelection and has the opportunity to anoint his successor. how does it become william howard taft? >> it is quite a complex issue, which i will try to nail down in a couple of sentences. he will outlive taft. he is also a corporate lawyer, you wanted. he looked over the republican party, who was the most sympathetic available candidate, and here was will taft from ohio, secretary of war, well known because of the philippines, interested in the position so roosevelt begins to convince himself he and taft agree on more than they in fact agreed on. this kind of courtship where both invest each other with the qualities they want to have. later on, they find out they had somewhat deluded themselves. roosevelt becomes a staunch backer of taft. >> we have many biographers that talk about helen taft's very serious lobbying of theodore roosevelt to select her husband and because of his known attitudes about politics and the desire for the supreme court role, may be it indicated he was a bit more hesitant. "mr. taft was such a poor politician. i urged him to display a little bit more enthusiasm on his own account." she is working both sides. how influential was she? >> think about it. if your wife thinks you can be president, that is a big boost that she has that confidence in you. she did meet with theodore roosevelt on two occasions to talk about this. he wanted to offer taft a position on the supreme court. he wants to remain as your secretary of war. roosevelt did not see the passion in taft. there are other men who want this. you need to be more aggressive. he did some campaigning for congressional candidates in 1906 to prove that he could campaign. >> does she meet personally with theodore roosevelt to make the case? >> taft is out on the road and she does have a luncheon with the president and he says, go by one of the windows and chat for a while. taft and tr both believed that she had misinterpreted what he was trying to say. you need to be more aggressive. he was not threatening to support governor hughes. he did not like charles evans hughes. helen was so sensitive to any variation that she interpreted this warning as a threat that he might support the soon-to-be governor of new york. >> what was the election like? >> they held on to the house and senate. they suffered some losses. basically, taft came out of it as the front-runner. >> how much did he win by? >> in the general election? he beat william jennings bryant 361 -- i forget offhand. it was a pretty decisive victory. it was big enough for all practical purposes. bryant carried the south. taft did very well. >> there are several parts of the story, things did not often break very well for her. one of those was inauguration day. there was a blizzard. it made the ceremony go indoors. we have a video about the inauguration. >> march 4, 1909, mrs. taft got to realize her dream that she became the first first lady to ride back from the capitol to the white house with her husband. these are some of the souvenirs from the inauguration. these are a couple of programs from the inauguration ceremony. a little dance card from the inaugural ball. here is an invitation to the inaugural ball that would have gone out to different folks. it would come along with tickets and the place for you to park. we have quite a few of these things in our collection. this is a bible that was used for swearing in of william howard taft when he was inaugurated in 1909. it was also used when he took the oath of office of chief justice. this is an interesting artifact as it represents the culmination of those two high points in his career. the inauguration was the realization of her biggest dreams. she pushed her husband through a lot of different positions and even though there was a blizzard, a snowstorm, the ceremonies had to be pushed into the capitol building, this was one of the biggest days in her life. >> what are some of the stories you would like to tell the public about inauguration day? >> theodore roosevelt said, i knew it would be a cold day when i went out. she went back to the white house it was the night before that was significant for the roosevelt and taft relationship. tr had invited the tafts to spend the night. it was a very awkward evening. taft, four years later, he said to his friend, you were there for that funeral in 1909 and we do not want to do that again. there was a great deal of tension between the roosevelts and the tafts the day before he was inaugurated. one of our viewers on facebook says, i detect a smug look on her face in that picture. what do we know about her emotions? she made this decision to get into the car. >> "i had a secret elation in doing something that no other woman had done." this was her proudest moment, riding in that car. being by her husband's side. she set a precedent. first ladies who followed her have done that since. she did have a fashion emergency the night before. her hat caught on fire. >> that was the high point of her time as first lady. it was almost all downhill after that. >> she had a very busy two months and we will learn about her approach to the white house. about her transition with edith roosevelt, that contributed to the management of the one family moving out and the other family moving in. the oil and water of these two women. what contributed to the friction between them? >> there was no mechanism for the transition in those days. helen was eager to get started. she talked about changing who the footmen would be at the white house door. edith had a gentleman who was white to greet people. helen wanted african-americans. she wanted to change the furniture. she had changes she wanted to make right away. let's get started. edith, thinking, i will be first lady until march 3, said, not so fast. wait a while. there began to be, you need to take over. the roosevelt people said, wait a minute, what is going on? what about the appointments being made? the friendship began to erode. it started to erode when taft wrote tr a letter saying, you and my brother charlie are responsible for making the president. charles was a newspaper owner and tr was infuriated by that statement. taft writes a thank you note. >> in the parlance of today, edith roosevelt and helen taft were not bff's. >> i have been watching the series from the beginning. i have a question i wanted to ask. i am a little embarrassed to ask. where are they buried? they are not just information on paper and books and old magazines. i would like to know their resting places. >> we will tell you right now. >> arlington national cemetery. she is the first first lady to be buried there. >> the only other is jacqueline kennedy. >> i want to spend a little bit more time understanding the personality and what she brought to the role of the white house. you mentioned earlier that she was very intellectual and that even though she did not go to college, she was self-educated. how important was this in shaping the role of first lady. >> she wanted to make washington the cultural center of the united states. this made people in new york very uneasy. there were some newspaper columns saying, what do you want to do? washington did not have a symphony orchestra, did not have an opera. she wanted to have the city embody american values. that was partly what it was about, making the beautification of the city with the cherry trees. that was all part of her vision of what washington could be. she hit the ground running and she also started going to see congress in visiting the supreme court, advising taft on the cabinet. >> one of the biographers that i read described her as outspoken, abrupt, and determined. >> she could be quite blunt. when she was a young teenager visiting the white house and saw the magic of it and had the idea that she could one day be there, she felt she had the skills to do it. she created these groups in cincinnati and they would have book discussions. she was determined to bring what she had at her skill set and use it to bring people together socially in washington. >> she had been president of the cincinnati symphony. she had run an orchestra, hiring the conductors in the 1890s. she had executive qualities. when taft proposed somebody for the cabinet, she said to him, he is quite impossible, i cannot imagine why you ever suggested him. that was the end of that candidate. >> i have some questions. can you tell us what helen taft's thoughts were on segregation? what did she feel about black men being able to vote and not her being able to vote? >> a very timely question. that is the next thing on my list. some people have suggested that she disdained racism, as evidenced by her time in the philippines. would you agree with that characterization? >> she seemed open. it is hard for me to know precisely what she thought about segregation. through her actions, she brought african-americans in as employees at the white house. that is the best testimony that we have. she also -- >> as servants? >> that is true. she uses the language of the day. she was a woman of her time period. when it comes to suffrage questions for women, she was not sure that america was quite ready for women to vote because they were not politically active. they were not public minded enough. >> using the language of the day, on edith roosevelt, we referenced your scholarship on the fact that edith roosevelt used racist terms about african- americans. we have a lot of helen taft's writings. >> i did not find the same use of words, some of the other unfortunate things that edith roosevelt said. they did not go as far as woodrow wilson in instituting it in the government, but taft hoped to develop the republican party in the south. helen taft was not a crusader for racial justice, but she was not a bigot either. edith roosevelt was further out on the edge. >> they also grew up post-civil war. >> edith and helen were born in the same year, 1861. >> jennifer wants to go back to that overnight stay. was it a preview of today's outgoing president hosting the incoming president for coffee on the day of? >> not so much. if it was an initiative that tr started, it flopped. the tradition of the transition would evolve in the 20th century. we cannot look at tr and taft as any helpful precedent. >> earlier you referenced she was more modern and her approach to things like enjoying alcohol and playing cards. we have a photograph of her at the card table. she smoked, she drank, and she played cards. how much did that connect her with the public at large? >> she played bridge for money and she would win $10 or so. if you put it into today's currency, she was winning about $200 or $300 in purchasing power. if that had come out that she was playing cards, it would have been another political difficulty. >> what would helen like to drink? taft would have said, anything with alcohol in it. >> did edith roosevelt drink alcohol? >> her father was an alcoholic. alcoholism runs through the roosevelt family. fdr and tr were the only two that really escaped the effects of alcoholism entirely. edith roosevelt was not thrilled with the idea of champagne and other things that helen taft liked very much each day. >> colleen is in ohio. what is your question? >> my great uncle used to be the personal secretary of president taft. they became really good friends. >> which was your relative? >> charles was his personal secretary. >> he was the last and most efficient secretary. his papers are at yale. >> we will have more and more connections. thank you for your call. >> can you hear me? i wanted to ask, helen was such a vibrant first lady. i wanted to know what is her transition from being a first lady to being kind of a private figure in terms of being married to a supreme court justice. how did that work for her? >> she had eight years of transition. taft became a professor of constitutional law at yale. on those days, you could get on a train and go to new york, go to the theater, have a nice meal and get back in time for dinner at night. she enjoyed that part of it after the pressures of the white house. of course, they went back to washington and the role of the chief justice was very much less social than had been the president. they also differed over prohibition. chief justice taft wanted it enforced and mrs. taft, not so much. >> he was a very large man. >> 350 pounds. he had neglected his health. he had not been to a dentist in a couple of decades. there were many stories about his weight. >> a lot of jokes were going around at the time. a lot of opportunity for commentary and satire. >> how did mrs. taft feel about his weight? >> this was the source of some marital tension. there was a story of him at a cabinet meeting and they had a bowl of fruit and he picked one off until the bowl was completely empty. he did not find the presidency very enjoyable. >> the white house needed an extra large bathtub to accommodate the president. >> that they had to put it in and it happened on the inauguration is one of those stories -- it was not done in the way they talked about. >> he was a big baby. when he was seven weeks old, his mother could not put nursery gowns on him that had belts. >> but he was a very good dancer, far better than tr. taft was very light on his feet. >> what was her relationship like with the press? >> she seemed to have a good relationship with the press. this is exactly the position i think my husband should have. one of the reporters commented that she would be an intellectual, cultural, all in one package. what a great opportunity for america to have helen in the white house. >> the only time edith was quoted was when there was a performance of "hansel and gretel." helen taft was quite willing to share her opinions on lots of issues with the press. she did not give interviews. she did not speak out on every issue, but if they asked, she got out and about. >> the american public was wildly enthusiastic about the young roosevelt family. what did the public think about the tafts? >> they were older when they came to the white house. robert was already at yale, soon to be at harvard law school. her daughter was at bryn mawr. charles was at the taft school that taft's brother ran in connecticut. >> we promised you more about the cherry blossoms. >> when helen taft became first lady, she had the cherry trees planted around the tidal basin. the tidal basin was a mess. there was a speedway. there was nothing to draw people or to make it a beautiful place for people to gather and enjoy nature. helen taft wanted to change that. one of the first things she did when she became first lady was to ask for trees to be planted. they were requested from nurseries in pennsylvania. the japanese heard about her interest and they decided to give 2000 trees to the united states from the city of tokyo to the city of washington as a gift honoring the american support of japan. they arrived in january of 1910 infested with bugs. president taft made the decision that they would have to be burned. the japanese were very accommodating and understanding and sent 3000 trees, which arrived in 1912. this is the north section of the tidal basin. many of the original trees had been planted. the older ones have gnarly trunks and overarching branches. this is where helen taft would have planted the first cherry blossom tree. the cherry blossom trees would not be here if it were not for helen taft. it was due to her that the trees are here today. >> permanently transforming the capital city. what else do we need to know about this story? tr had been more projapanese figuring there was no way to stop them in asia. so this was i think a gesture by the japanese government to make nice with taft. but it turned out to be one of the great beautify indication moves of the 20th century. and taffed said to his daughter your mother's work with the cherry trees are coming to blossom. >> it was a busy time in american history. here are a couple of important things. much of his presidency seemed to be a debate about tariffs. and the tariff act passed in 1909. the 16th amendment came into being in the taft administration. for those of you who don't know that's what brought us the income tax. two more states were admitted to the union new mexico and arizona. helen taft's role in all of that. how long was it after the inauguration you referenced a few times that she had a stroke? > may 17, they went out to take a cruise on the presidential yacht and one of the cabinet members noticed that there was something wrong with mrs. taft and they realized that she had had some kind of seizure and they turned around and took the residential vessel back. decpwhrf that transformed the presidency in their lives. >> at the time they didn't know what a stroke was. how impaired was she and for how long? > she had some temporary paralysis. >> you couldn't understand her because she lost that arctic cue lation and it took a long time for that to come back and i don't know if she was ever fully the same. but the nerves earlier that morning she had a stroke, her son had surgery. her youngest charles had surgery. adenoid removed and so she was a nervous wreck that particular day. robert taft just did it so bright that they didn't have to worry about him but she sent charlie to prep school she said i'll never see him again go back as a son. seeing her go through this was a trauma for her. the nice thing what the president did was there's stories of him sitting on a couch with helen saying save thee, darling, save thee. let's try to save thee again. he was running a rehab in the white house for his wife. was he able to do his duties as fully as he should have? >> i think he carried forward the duties of the white house. but what is striking to me is the emotional stress that it must have been because any moment he could have had another stroke she feels having in may 19, 1911. but the concentration and the distraction of knowing that your wife is upstairs vocally mpaired and suffering, i think it's an element of the taft presidency that even in the book i wrote about the taft presidency, i don't think i gave it enough importance. >> comes at a critical time in the presidency when they are debating the tariff act and he loses her input to him on the political ramifications as it goes this way or that way. this was a highly stressful time for him and for her. >> he relied on her political advice. >> he really had no other close friends because t.r. had been the other close friend. but none of the brothers were good at giving him advice. no structure in the white house. he had no other friends to confide with. he was the most intimate advisor and in an afternoon she's gone in terms of giving him advice. >> not a politician to boot. >> roosevelt left him in a tough position. he delayed the tariff until it was dumped into taft's lap. so it wasn't a profile in courage for t.r. >> you're on the air? >> hi there. >> you can tell more about the likes and dislikes of theater and music. a cultural change of trying to pgrain everything. some of the luminaries she kind of favored and wanted to bring into the white house, either actors or writers or musicians, i would like to get a better picture. name drop, if you would, please. >> in the first book, our musical first lady, you list the performers she brought to washington. >> charles coburn, later a character actor in the 1950s. he took shakespeare around and had performances of shakespeare on the white house lawn. edith roosevelt did a little bit of that. but these were full blown production of the plays and she had artist like ogof samerov. the kind the fbi juries in the 1960s. and bloomfield biseler, the great female pianists, the who's who of classical music moved through the white house n the last four years. >> did it have cultural or political impact on society? >> i think it was more cultural. i thought she didn't see this as sort of moving the poll numbers. it was what the first lady ought to do bring the finest music to the white house. and i think generally that's what cultural aspects of the white house do. >> if she wanted washington to be the social representative city of the land. and in it, you know, we have records. we have video and audio of and photographs of jackie kennedy's concerts that she had. but we don't have that with owen taft. so we've got the visual tangible cherry trees. but we don't have the -- there's just the technology wasn't developed enough to have the film that we have now with audio to know what those concerts were like in the white house. >> president taft loved to listen to records. they loved to play them at night and he enjoyed going to the musical performances. one wishes we had 30 seconds of helen taft playing the piano would be, i'd certainly listen. >> you referenced a few times, archie button. who is he? >> the president had a military aide in those days. this was archibald willing hamm butt, b-u-t-t. the military aide. he's famous. he wrote his sisters letters. there are three volumes of the letters, one from the roosevelt years, two from the taft years. he was a great gossip. he recorded everything anybody said. some of it may be right, some may be wrong. it's a source the historians used for years. the archie butt, taft and roosevelt. the intimate levels of archie butt. >> the amazing story is how did he die? >> on the titanic. >> great loss for taft. >> it crushed taft. archie started off pro t.r. and moved over to taft. e created an emotional dependence on archie. he was with taft most of the time. so when he went off to europe, he -- he didn't want to be around when taft and roosevelt had their battle. so he went off and made his way back in april of 1912. and supposedly was quite heroic on the titanic making sure he got in at the cost of his own life. despite the illness -- we'll learn more about it in the first video. >> mrs. taft enjoyed being the first lady. she suffered a stroke in 1909 and wasn't able to attend to all of those things. so it was disappointing. in june of 1911, they were able to celebrate the 25th anniversary there. a big party there with the white house open. thousands of guests came in. they had music and they received tons of silver. just embarrassing amounts of silver. some expensive from all types of not just their friends, from corporations, from all types of people. and we have some of that silver here. that they would have been presented. and it was some things very small and they would have little inscriptions on them. this one just says the taft inscription here. to some things that are like we have, very large silver tray. that would have the dates of 1886 to 1911 or just as simple as having a "t" inscribed in them. some of the pieces were large which had the inscription, you can see 1886 to 1911. and william howard taft and hiram taft. in addition to the gifts of silver, many telegrams were sent to the taft family from all over the world. this is the momento that show cases all of those telegrams. they kept those, collected those, and some -- here's some from washington, d.c., buffalo, new york. let's see. here we have -- south orange, ew jersey, pittsburgh. chicago. this one says permit me to join with your friends in the hope of today's great happiness that you and your family will be exceeded by the happiness of your 50th anniversary. so this from chicago was looking forward to 25 more years. this is recognition of all of the people who appreciated the president and mrs. taft by the gifts, the telegrams, and it was just a strengthening affair for mrs. taft as she moved through her years in the white house. > well, this tweet is a nice way to come out of that asking how did helen's stroke impact the marriage of the tafts? we have them celebrating their anniversary. you talked about how much he attended to her personally. what are they going to do? >> i think it's strength and a powerful union they established because he became president as care giver and doted on her and worried about her and was constantly solicitous about her. so they were a very devoted couple to begin with. so i think alas and sadly, they would have passed on it if they could have. but it did bring them closer together. the letters he wrote to her, he wrote to her every day when she was away and these were handwritten, six, seven, eight-page letters. we get to woodrow wilson writing letters for another reason. but here was taft at the end of a very busy day sitting down and writing 2,000 to 3,000 words to his wife. that's devotion. >> she was in massachusetts recovering at a seaside house. >> she couldn't be in washington in the summer without air conditioning in those days. that's why the british made washington the hardship post. but he would dictate some letters and she said please, handwrite them. and so he did that too. >> watching in massachusetts. speaking of massachusetts, what is your question? >> good evening. we live two towns over from the vacation -- >> beverly. >> beverly, mass. what they call the gold coast. my grandmother relived stories of seeing taft in downtown beverly heading over to play golf at my open yeah country club in hamilton and returned for a couple of summers while in the white house. i wanted to say i enjoy your show and pass that information alone. >> we have a photograph of the place she would recuperate in beverly, massachusetts. on her influence, even with her stroke, a comment from the chief usher, ike hoover at the white house observing her in action in washington. he wrote, no uncommon thing to see her take part in political and official conferences, speaker cannon of the house with the president and mrs. taft. she attended the private conferences. she would walk in on private caucuses, unheralded, unannounced. >> it was interesting brought up in 1964, her daughter wrote a letter to "time" magazine said this is much overdrawn, my mother after the stroke couldn't do that anymore. ike hoover has a very well known memoir in the white house. historians regard him with deep skepticism. he didn't like ellen taft. he was not fan of hers. so take it for what it says. >> the view of her own writings and other people's observations on how deeply she was involved and on policy making, tells us what? >> in looking at her memoir, she downplays the role. but it seems to me she had more of an advanced role than a lot of first ladies up to that point. but not nearly as advanced as we are today. she was washington centric in her outlook as first lady. she was not going out and about around the country making stops in different parts of the country. she might have travelled with him had she not had that stroke. that might have been the influence that we're missing on his presidency. >> so in no sense they were co-president? >> no, no. >>ed the last year when the rift becomes great between theodore roosevelt and taft. and he decides that he might be mounting a challenge to him, how did that all play out for the party and for the two men? >> well, there was a disaster for the republican party that still echoes in its sort of dna. to this day. one reason the republicans compose their differences more than the democrats is because there's this ancestral memory of the trauma they went through in 1912. helen was convinced t.r. was going to run from march 4, 1909. it started developing in a more measured way. in 1911, it was clear that roosevelt was pushed hard to be put into the race. she kept saying i know he's going to do it. i know he was going to do it. when he announced, she said i new he was going it. will said, my dear, i think you've been predicting it for so long, you're happy now that your prediction has come rue. he didn't trust theodore roosevelt one minute. >> he split off, was with the bull moose party. his decision to do that brought wood row wilson into the white house. what were the last months of the taft presidency like? >> well, taft took his defeat with unusual grace. he was not a bad loser. he said -- when the press said do you feel disappointed? he said, look, the american people gave me the gift of the presidency for four years. how many men have had that gift given to them? i would be an ingrate and a loser if i said i was angry at this point. he writes to one of his relatives and friends in cincinnati. you know, you have to punt with the vagaries of democracy, the american people have made their decision. i have to live by it. i can't be angry about it. he went out on a wave of goodwill as someone who showed how democracy should operate. so he was disappointed but not imbittered. that's to his credit over the long haul. >> what mattered most to taft was the law and the rule of law and the people had spoken. so he could accept that more easily than some people. >> christine in boise. you're on the air, hi, christine? >> hi. i was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about her three children and what became of their lives and families? >> well, her oldest son robert ran for the senate. was a successful senator. so was his son and then his son, robert, taft's great grandson was governor of ohio. their daughter went on a phd. she married, had children. the youngest son was the mayor of cincinnati. mr. cincinnati was his nickname. they had their own legacy in politics. >> robert taft becomes mr. republican. and helen, the daughter, becomes the dean at brinmar and is an influential educator. charles taft had a career in cincinnati politics. he tried to move up to be governor. didn't work out. he was probably the most liberal between he and robert taft. and helen was pro suffrage at the time that her mother wasn'tment. president taft becomes pro suffrage because it's a way of enforcing prohibition and his view, he didn't like prohibition, but if the american people wanted it, he wanted it in force. >> we have a list of some of the firsts that mrs. taft brought to the role of the first lady. the first to ride with the president in the inaugural parade. the first to attend a supreme court argument. she was the first to attend a political convention, but not of her husband's party. she went to the democratic convention in 1912. >> yes. they met in baltimore which made it a sort of a road trip for her. she went with democratic women. most of society went over to see the baltimore convention. it lived up to the billing unlike the dull routine political conventions of our time that's drained of all significance. the one that nominated wood row wilson had 46 ballots. it had drama. a resolution was included attacking president taft and he withdrew it because he didn't want to embarrass the first lady while she's sitting in the gallery. >> she was the only first lady to attend the opposite political party. >> imagine that happening today, can you? >> no. >> among the firsts -- the first to donate her inaugural gown to the smithsonian and started that practice which is the most popular exhibit. she brought automobiles to the white house. in fact, in a commercial which we don't have time to tell that story, the first first lady to publish her memoirs and the first first lady along with her husband to be buried in arlington cemetery. one of the viewers tweeted to us that they have been flowing along in our book about first ladies. i want to take a second to tell you about it. we're doing this series in partnership with the white house historical association. they have published a book called the first ladies that contains a biography of each one of the first ladies. we're making it available at cost, 12:95 on our website. the one i referenced earlier. there's a way to buy this book. you can read along with it and learn more about each of the first ladies as we work our way through the series. if you're interested, that's a resource available to you. we have a video about the inaugural gowns. let's watch that, next. >> smithsonian has very few pieces that belong to helen taft. but the piece that we do have is the most significant -- one of the most significant pieces in the first ladies' collection. going to open it up for you. helen taft was a woman of firsts. she was a woman of combination. and this to me symbolizes all of that. this is helen taft inaugural gown. she had the dress embroidered in the philippines to wear to the inaugural ball. the nomination was very important to helen taft. she saw it as her husband coming into the white house and herself coming into the white house. it was a very ceremonious occasion for her. she marked this occasion, her entry into the white house and added it as a mark of first ladies on the united states when she became the first first lady to donate her inaugural gown to the smithsonian institution. she happeneded to be the first first lady when the founders were putting the collection together. they met helen taft at a lunch commemorating dolly madison. they asked her if she would be interested in the new collection they were putting together. they were trying to acquire something from every first lady. mrs. taft generously offered to lend and donate her inaugural gown to the election. she's the founding patron of the first ladies' collection and she established a tradition that the first ladies would donate their gown to the collection. every first lady after mrs. taft who had an inaugural gown donated it to the smithsonian institution. >> many of you watching tonight have been through that exhibit over time. well, the tafts leave washington. he has the problem that he can't really practice law because he's appointed so many of the judges so he goes to teach at yale. >> coming back to yale, he tells the yale daily news. >> how did he become the chief justice of the united states? >> he played things very carefully for eight years hoping that the republicans would come back in. he was very disappointed when wilson -- heart broken was the case when wilson was re-elected. he had come to hate wilson. wilson and the democrats were reputiated in 1920 and harding becomes president on new year's eve -- sorry, christmas eve. 1920, taft is in marion, ohio and goes to see the hardings and the hardings say, would you like to be on the supreme court? i'll kbrout on the court. he said i could only be chief justice. harding says chief justice douglas white dies. taft was going to make way for a republican anyway. and taft is appointed chief ustice about july 1, 1921. >> and served for how long? >> he serves until his death in early 1930. >> and chief justice william howard taft was responsible for giving the supreme court its own home. until that time, it met in the capitol building. he understood as president how to get that done. he didn't live to see the court work in the supreme court building. but he's the one that got that under way and gave the court its own place in washington, d.c. brian seenbergen ask, did helen taft -- we know the story -- like being first lady more than taft liked being president. but goes on to say what was her role after he became chief justice? what was her life like then? >> pretty much, very quiet. the wives of the justices did not have a public role. they didn't entertain. it was really cloistered in a way that is not the case today. we have chief justices speaking on all sorts of questions. and taft's view was he issued opinions. promoted the law, he helped to get the supreme court building. but that was about it for society as far as the supreme court was concerned. >> big first lady is what she always wanted to do. she didn't have a big ambition about that other than just to live a quiet life. so i think that's why, you know, you don't see that as much. >> bill in tampa, hi, bill, you're on. >> i was channel surfing and came upon your program. wonderful, congratulationses. i'll be tuning in for all of the episodes. >> thank you. >> and your question. >> we love it. ms. cooke, we love american phoenix, keep that works going, thank you. >> thank you, appreciate it. >> she feels a lucky lady. she suffered two strokes and outlived her husband and lived to the ripe old age of 81. how did she spend those years? >> interacting with children and grandchildren, they continue to go to murray bay. haven't talked about his love for murray bay, canada. they had a cabin and grew into a kind of a taft complex. 4e would have made it the summer white house in canada, but the president by tradition could not leave the continental united states in their time in office. if they had been in murray bay, it would have been much happier. >> the political fallout having a summer home in another country. >> yeah, it was just impossible. but he loved murray bay so much. he k0u8d not wait to get there to get away from the heat of washington. >> she's also -- this is not during the chief justice years but after the white house, she did write an autobiography with a ghost writer. the first ones to be published. >> published in 1914 a couple of years after she left the white house. as a matter of fact, if you're really sbrelsed in her life, we have hyperlinked her autobiography on her website. it's in a public domain now. you can read it if you would like to have more of her details. that's on that website. trying to put lots of resources on there for those of you who are interested. >> more about the philippines than the white house. the white house just about the last 15%. but it was unique even though it was ghost written by a writer from a magazine and her daughter, she didn't think it was dignified to write it herself. >> you brought a letter you found on the internet, as a matter of fact, her and her postwhite house years. why did you find this charming or interesting? >> i enjoy collecting the letters of people. i did all of this. but she's writing about the transition taft had been on the national war labor board in world war i. that was coming to an end. we were moving back to new haven. she talks about, then we can go to the summer to murray bay. >> invited back to the white house by eleanor roosevelt in 1940. >> yes. she feels. that's a quiet tradition that first ladies have. elen invited cleveland back to the white house. when she was first lady, thach got invited. they were married the same year, 1886. there's a little lub of first ladies to share and talk about their experiences and to invite a previous first lady back is a nice quiet tradition. >> died on may 22, 1943. and as we said earlier, is the first and only one of two first ladies buried at arlington cemetery. you can see some video there of arlington national cemetery. the taft -- the taft burial place. also we close out here in our final few seconds, i want to go right back to where we started. we have introduced people to helen taft. why should she be remembered among the pantheon of first ladies. >> the cherry trees, the musicianship she bought, the role of making taft president, the role in the split between t.r. and her husband. she was a consequential first lady in a cultural and political and marital sense. and i think she deserves much more from history than she's received. >> and jane, what would you say? >> i would say definitely all of the firsts that she did as first lady. but also that she made it okay for a woman to have an interest in politics. we can look back and see that she was ahead of her time. and to see the first ladies that came after her, more of them had the natural interest as well. >> for our first lady scholars, thank you for helping us to understand more about one of america's most obscure 20th century first ladies. we hope we told the audience about her life and interested them in learning more. thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> the wilson's love was reflected in letters. she died of kidney disease after being first lady for less an a year and a half through this personal tranl i did and with america on the path to world war i, president ill wilson met edith and fell in love and got married. edith is best known for looking after president wilson when he suffered a stroke during his second term. join us as we get to know both first ladies in the wilson white house, ellen and edith live monday night at 9:00 p.m. astern on c-span and c-span 3. >> we're offering a special edition of the book first ladies of the united states of america. it has a biography and portrait of each first lady and comments on the role of each first lady through history. t's offered for a discounted price. there is a special section on our website. it chronicles life in the executive mansion. you can find out more at c-span.org/first ladies. >> tonight on c-span the american bar association hosting a discussion on the effect race has on the college admissions process. after that chinese foreign affairs minister on u.s. china relations. then a discussion on relidgens impact on race relations in america. >> the subject of whistle blowers is a very important and sensive subject. we as ig's depend on whistle blowers. we value their information. it's very important they feel comfortable coming forward and saying i have information that you need to have. and my identity i'm concerned about potential repricele, you need to protect my identity. we understand that. the statute requires us to extend protections. in practice what we as ig's will depodown is to advise existle blowers of these protections. to the extent you can give us specific information that is more helpful to us than general information. and sometimes in the course of providing specific information in details, it may be that an enl kated and informed person may be able to guess as today identity of the whistle blower. and you need to be aware of that risk. >> more with agriculture department and the role of inspector general sunday night at 8:00 an c-span's q&a. >> next a discussion about race and the college admissions process specifically a supreme court case involving the university of texas and its afir ma i tive action admissions policy. this is from the bar association meeting in san francisco. t's a little more than an hour the council on race in the pipeline is sponsoring this panel. our chair could not be here was so i'm going to be moderating. i also wanted to take a minute to acknowledge robin who just stepped out of the room. she is the executive director of the council and has been for a number of years and as those of you who work in volunteer organizations know that the work is done and the committees are all run by the executive directors and the staff. and she has been such a contributor to our work over the years that i have known her that i just wanted to thank her. she's back in the room. to thank robin for all of her diligence and dedication because she's really had an impact over the years. thank you robin. i wanted to just lay the ground work a little bit for today's panel and go ahead and introduce our speakers. they are each going to speak for a few minutes and then we'll take questions among ourselves and questions from the audience. the idea for today's panel is a discussion of fisher versus texas. ot from the litigation perspective but to ask a more fundamental question which is given fisher's holding and given the decision that is have been issued by the supreme court and various courts of appeals. how should educational institutions respond and react in a way that fosters diversity in the education pipeline? so with that said, let me introduce today's panel. immediately to my right is our first speaker. i tell everyone to turn things off and then don't do it myself. immediate to to my right is professor garcia. the professor is a professor of law. he was professor of law and director of labor employment law program in san diego where he taught for eight years. he's also held academic appointments at the davet school of law. before beginning his teaching he worked as an attorney for public and private sector labor unions in the los angeles area. perhaps as relevant to today he's incoming president of society of american law teachers. and has been a participant in the fisher litigation through various filings. >> carla pratt who is to his right is the associate dean for academic affairs at the penn state law school. professor pratt teaches and writes in the area race and the law. she served as the new jersey deputy attorney general and engaged in private practice in philadelphia. she teaches or has taught constitutional law, federal indian law, race and american law and professional responsibility. and was recently confirmed as an associate justice of the standing lock sue supreme court. >> professor cantor has an appointment in the education and law school at the university of texas. i think that gives her particular insight into fisher obviously coming from u.t. for eight years she served as the assistant secretary for education -- assistant secretary of education for the civil rights division of the u.s. department of education. and the clinton administration where she oversaw a staff of 850 and was in charge of implemented policy for civil rights in the education arena. prior to service as the enforcer, professor cantor worked as for 14 years at the educational director at the mexican defense and educational fund. in that capacity she participated in countless cases and litigation strategy on any number of civil rights matters particularly those that involve educational funding. english language learners and student policies as well as racially hostile environments. with that said i will introduce professor garcia. >> thank you and thank you for being here. thank you to my co-panelist who i'm sure i will learn a lot from especially in the state of texas. i'm from texas originally so it's interesting to be on this panel. i have to emphasize we're not talking about litigation strategies here but rather appropriate to this panel how we talk about the dialogue that fisher versus texas and the debate around affirmative action has created and how we might try to shape that dialogue. 'm here on behalf of salt, the society of american law teachers. we now almost 40 years old. we are the largest independent organization of law teachers in the country. and we have been involved in race conscious remedies and affirmative action issues for that time. we were am cuss council in the baucus case and in the fisher and now in a case i'll be talking about in a moment, a case next term. so what i am here to talk about then is a little be about where we are post fisher, what fisher versus texas is, what it means. what i think the next frontiers might be in this particular debate. then a little bit about the role that i think salt, the aba and the rest of the civil rights community might plail. and then just close briefly with some ideas about where the dialogue and the debate about affirmative action and of course how that might impact the educational pipeline which is the reason why we're here, we're concerned about the race and eth nick diversity in the educational pipeline. so what is fisher versus the university of texas? i'm not going into a great detail about the case itself ut suffice to say it was the most recent statement by the supreme court on the issue of affirmative action in higher ucation and it concerned the application of abigail fisher to the university of texas which at the time in 2008 as fisher was applying for admission to the university, xas was using a hybrid admissions program, a top 10% program that took from the top 10% of school districts in texas and also used holistic review of the kind that the supreme court approved in university of michigan versus gruder. and so when the supreme court took this case as you can imagine, there was a lot of concern about the sturdyness and the longevity of gruder. d to the relief of many, the gruder president was unchanged -- precedent was unchanged, at least not overruled. and we'll talk about in this panel what exactly the fisher case means for affirmative action in higher education going forward, but the doctrine al outcome of the case was that the diversity in higher education remains a compelling interest. but as the supreme court said, the fifth circuit had given too much deference to how the university of texas was going to apply that standard. so they sent the case back to the lower courts to try to make sure that the remedy that the university of texas had chosen was narrowly taylored for the particular interest, the compelling interest in racial diversity and higher education. so again, in terms of where the doctrine stands, it seems to me, and again i would like to ear from my co-panelists and the rest of the audience in terms of the doctrine, it seems like we are still at least where we were before. there is still no major change the use of affirmative action in higher education. so that really i guess leads to the question of what is the public debate or what is the public perception of this case and what is the importance of the public perception in terms of these -- the pipeline into the higher education? and again, i think it's important to remember that each time there is an affirmative action case before the court, there is a dialogue and a counter dialogue about what that actually means. i think it's important to remember that after gruder, those who opposed affirmative action never really acknowledged that it was really a reaffirmation of the policy. so again, i think for the last nine years or so, they had made it seem like ruder was on shakey found dapings. we kept hearing that affirmative action is time limited. it seemed like a good policy for another 25 years and then it would have to sunset. and then as i said, you had a lot of people arguing that the sun was setting. and i think, again, it's important to even given the difficulties that we might face in terms of the next case and fisher when it does return to the court that the scourt had -- supreme court had the possibility of over ruling gruder and saying diversity was not a compelling interest in higher education and it did not. so the decision, again, seems to reaffirm gruder for now. now again, in terms of information and not just to institutions of higher education but also students who are interested in applying into universities or law schools, it's very important to get the message out that there are no major changes in the way that universities should be addressing what they have been doing -- in other words applying gruder as it existed before. the civil rights community i think also has a role to play in this record. i know that there was a lot of concern about gruder as well as the shelby county case. and so the dialogue on that will also -- is also a role that the civil rights community plays in terms of the dialogue. for our own part, the society of american law teachers, we have even before fisher came out, we had been holding a ba to jd pipeline programs to try and make sure that applicants to law schools and institutions knew the lay of the land in terms of what was possible, in terms of diversity and affirmative action. salt is also very active in also tation issues and is very cognizant of changes in acreditation standard that might impact the diversity of the law school student body. and as i said, we've been involved in amikus with the help of probonn no law firms. later this year salt will be introducing a consumer guide to law schools. so again, trying to get information to students who are choosing law school and hopefully getting information about what currently exists in terms of the possibilities for diversity and affirmative action in law schools. o i'll close just by trying to reaffirm a few things. salt will try to press after fisher and obviously into the next supreme court term. we at salt continue to want to stress that educational institutions have a compelling interest and need in racial and eth nick diversity. and we through our affirmative action and equal opportunity committee continue to try to provide resources to institutions mostly law schools, but as as i said, , ing into prelaw programs until we get more guidance from the supreme court that gruder remains the law of the land. and then as i said at the beginning, we have another case oming up on affirmative action . and salt will be filing a brief in that case as well. but that case is not, as i aid, not a referendum on affirmative action but more on the political system and it heartens back to some old cases about the political structure of the state and how it might negatively impact minorities in terms of getting their legislation through. so that is the next case that will be heard in the supreme court and again i'm sure it's going to be a little bit different than fisher but we also want to mike that you are people know that it's not necessarily going to be another referendum on affirmative action. and then finally our role at salt is just to continue to try to advocate for diversity justice and academic excellence. and again, i think we do that through continuing to remind people about the importance of diversity both in the law schools and also in the pipeline into law schools, universities like the university of texas. so thank you. >> thank you professor garcia. dean pratt. >> thank you for inviting me to speak today and i think professor garcia is the optimist on the panel and i'm a bit of a pessimist on the panel. i agree with him wholeheartedly that fisher does not overrule gruder but i have serious concerns as an academic administrator about fisher's view of gruder as precedent. fisher makes it clear that we can still consider race as long as our consideration of race in the admissions process meets strict scrutiny. and fisher gives us a lot of guidance with respect to what that means. fisher for the first time art lates that diversity for diversity's own sake is not compelling interest. that would be unconstitutional balancing. so the only permissible goal is to achieve the educational benefits that are derived from a diverse student body. so as an administrator i have to art late to the court what those benefits are that are deriveed from having a diverse student body. which means i have to also work with my faculty to discern what benefits are deriveed from racial diversity that couldn't be deriveed from non-racial diversity. so if we considered a race neutral approach to diversity economic status, joge fy, gender and other factors outside of race, perhaps we could achieve those educational benefits that flow from diversity without considering race. and so we have to give consideration as educational institutions i think to what exactly is it that racial diversity adds to our educational process. fisher in my opinion deviates from gruder. i think most scholars understood it to permit deaf rans on both the first and second prong of the scruletny test. fisher makes it clear that while it's appropriate to dive some difficult rans, it's not on the second prong of the test. so fisher says some but not complete deafer answer is allowed. diversity is essential to its mission. because the court is only going to give us some, we need to be ready to justify why we're using race and how the consideration of race in our admissions process is essential to our mission. and because there is not going to be any with respect to the narrow tayloring prong it's whether they could achieve sufficient diversity without using race. school rejecting certain add misprocesses is relevant. that tells me i need to give serious thought to whether we need to try a race neutral alternative before we can justify the consideration of race in admissions. i would argue that because i am in central pennsylvania where we have a very difficult time getting a critical mass of any racial minority group that i probable don't need to try a racial neutral alternative because i haven't achieved it under a race conscious plan. but in texas where aurguably you can achieve some racial diversity in a race neutral fashion, there is going to be an inquiry by the courts in terms of ha is the justification for considering race given you can achieve it through the texas 10% plan or some other race neutral means. i think it's interesting to note too that the schools bear the o fisher burden of proof. we bear the burden of proof and those benefits cannot be achieved at a satisfactory level without the consideration of race. in order for compliance i think administrators are going to have to show they gave serious good faith consideration of workable race neutral alternatives and they decided they were insufficient for x reason. and the court made it clear that consideration of race neutral alternatives alone was insufficient. that you have to show that no workable race neutral alternative would produce the benefits of diversity. connecting it to that first prong of the strict scrutiny test. the court made it clear in fisher that color blindness is the preferred approach. if a non-racial approach could promote diversity about as well and at tolerable expense then the university may not consider race. so i think we do have to ascertain also even if we could utilize race neutral measures what is the cost of doing so. so i don't think the court is going to hold us to the standard of having to conduct many imperical tests or studies on each aspect of our admissions process in order to justify the use of race, but i do think the court's moving forward may require universities to demonstrate that the non-racial approach to university admission was not producing the sufficient levels of diversity or that it would not produce sufficient levels of diversity and why those levels of diversity are essential to the education mission think the bar is higher now than it was then in terms of the homework we had to do behind the scenes of educational administrators. again, it is clear the use of race is permissible, but we might have to change a few practices. we might need to define our educational goals. i will try to get my faculty

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