Edward snowden, the man and the theft. In your opinion, why didnt president obama pardon Edward Snowden . President obama in this case was the man who knew too much. Unlike the world of journalism, the world of president s, they have access to the findings of our own Intelligence Community. The c. I. A. , the n. S. A. , the f. B. I. So he knew without a doubt that snowden wases lying when he claimed was lying when he claimed that the u. S. Government, and specifically obama, had trapped him in moscow. He knew that snowden was lying when he said he had no contact with russian intelligence. He knew that snowden was lying when snowden said he had only taken whistleblowing documents since he had the damage report. So, given those facts that we almost there would be almost no reason, not even compassion, because the man isnt in prison, no reason for him to give him a pardon and he did not give him a pardon. Your book, called how america lost its secrets the man and the theft Edward Snowden when did you get interested in doing this story . Ive always been interested in espionage. I temporarily interrupted my interest when the cold war ended. When suddenly it was announced that the someone had stolen communications secrets. In fact, snowden admitted it on video. It wasnt a whodoneit. And went to russia. This interested me because it was a potential i stress the word potential espionage case. O i became interested in 2013, shortly after the theft. How many Different Countries did you go to to do this story . We wont count hawaii as a country, but it was important. Japan with where snodeworked. Hawaii, which was the snowden had worked. Hawaii, which was the scene of the crime. Russia, of course, where he ended up. So i would say three Different Countries. As you know, a lot of reviewers theres a whole group of people that do not think youve done a fair job. They think youre biased. Ive got right here the front page of the book reviewed in the New York Times by nick lemon and he basically i dont know if its fair to say it this way, he said, you dont know what youre talking about. Whats going on here with all these journalists that are negative to this book . You know, for the past five decades, ive been concerned with a single issue. How unverified information becomes established as conventional wisdom. Started with the warren commission, went on to the black panthers. My book news from nowhere, and of course soviet disease information. But in all these disinformation. But in all these years ive never seen a case where the snowden case, where so uncritically journalists have accepted information from a Single Source, Edward Snowden. Who is in moscow, under the control of the russian government. So what i am doing here is questioning the validity of that Single Source. Since so many journalists have tied their reputations, the author of that review was the head of the Pulitzer Prize committee that gave put itser prizes to gave Pulitzer Prizes out, theres a reaction to me that, what business do you have disturbing the peace . What business do you have saying that the conventional knowledge is wrong . They have a perfect right to question my facts. They even question my motives. But my motive is very clear. Im doing exactly what the New York Times reviewer, nick lemon, says im doing. Im not taking at face value the story of Edward Snowden. And im basically looking to what the government, which has access to information that journalists dont, what the government has found about snowden. I want to put i dont want to put words in your mouth, but is this a case where the liberal point of view says hes a whistleblower and the conservative point of view says he committed treason . Theres some sort of rift here, a great divide. Im not sure its only the liberals. I think journalism has gone beyond being liberal, right wing. I think theres a libertarian streak, a privacy streak. And even now a commitment to journalism as a religious institution, where you have to have faith in other journalists and if journalists win the Pulitzer Prize, you have to assume that they somehow know what theyre talking about, even though, and im trying to say that basically the emperor wore no clothes. Ll these journalists, all of them had only a Single Source. Other than documents. The documents provided are egitimate. What do you think of him . Snoden . I think he was a disgruntled employee who didnt like the n. S. A. He started more or less like he said he started. He was working for a private company. He started more or less like you said he started. He held antisurveillance parties in hawaii, got angrier and angrier, and left with the documents. He wound up in a situation in hong kong where his only escape route was to russia. He went to russia, and the home of the russian Intelligence Services, right into their hands. They are going to squeeze him. That is what they do. That is what we would do in reverse situation. I never interviewed snowden, not that that would help, and i only know the same things from the video clips that everyone else has seen. How hard did you try to interview him . Dr. Epstein i went to moscow twice. I met with his lawyer in moscow who was very helpful, but said his aclu lawyer in america has he keys to seeing snowden. I went to that lawyer, wrote to him, and he said that snowden eclined to see me. So, that is as far as i went. When all of this became public in the guardian, the washington post, there was an interview video made with snowden. Lets watch a little bit of hat from 2013. My name is ed snowden. I am 29 years old. I work for booth Allen Hamilton as an infrastructure analyst for the nsa in hawaii. What are some positions you have held previously in the ntelligence community . A systems engineer, systems administrator, Senior Advisor for the Central Intelligence agency. Solutions consultant and a telecommunications informations systems officer. Who is this fellow . Dr. Epstein even in the clips we just saw, he tells a lie. He said he was a Senior Advisor to the cia. What he was was a communications officer, what is called a hack, working at the cia for two years and was actually forced out. He was not a senior adviser, but that is not my complaint. The interesting thing about this video is that he made it. If snowden had gone directly to moscow or if any intelligence or any person who steals intelligence had gone directly to moscow, no one would pay much attention. The narrative would be established. U. S. Intelligence worker steals secrets and goes to moscow. But he stopped in hong kong and made this video. Supplying, just as we have seen, alternative video where he himself, the selfinterested party, of course, identifies himself as a whistleblower. From this video and the story he told the journalists i think they honestly reported what he said. I have no complaints against the journalists who took this Single Source, a great story, and ran with it because the government did not immediately respond. The government was shellshocked and did not immediately respond. Where it responded, people found that it was not credible, the government. They didnt like the u. S. Government. At that point, the story became established. This is the way he established his narrative. Host how did he move out of the database at the n. S. A. And ow did he do it . Dr. Epstein despite what snowden says and despite what his supporters say based on at he says, he removed 1. 5 million documents. A vast patch of secret documents. The way i know this is this is in the report of the House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence, signed by all the democrats and all the republicans. These members of this commission had only one source essentially, and that was the u. S. Intelligence community. They read the damage reports, ok . That is my source. The more interesting question is, what was the intelligence damage assessments based on . Each compartment from which snowden stole information had a log, and the log said when he coppedy a document, when he selected a document and when he moved a document. So that is how they know the minimum number of documents he moved. But where he was working, he changed jobs to work here, where he was working he had whats called a thin computer. That is a computer without any Storage Capabilities or ports, so you cannot make copies because it was such a highsecurity facility. So, he had to move the information with this workstation to a server, and from that server, where he erased the data, he then had to move it or try to reverse, because they reconstructed with forensic tools, to another computer which was approximately 20 miles away, where he had previously worked. To a thick computer that had ports so he could make some thumb drives or external drives. So the n. S. A. Or actually the department of defense, which had a much more intensive investigation than the n. S. A. , was basically able to trace the movement of his information, how much he moved, and how much he removed from one computer to another. That is how they came to the 1. 5 million. St how did he pick, the journalists who did the journalists, how did he pick those people to release this to . Dr. Epstein he wrote to Laura Poitras, who had been making antinsa films, and said you selected yourself, because of the work you had done. He picked them, because he knew they would be on his side. He knew they were actually all ourageous reporters. Laura poitras made films of what she found, and she elieved that she was under surveillance with good reason, possibly. And Glenn Greenwald was her friend, became a coauthor and cowriter. He also wrote to lenox about the n. S. A. , and the n. S. A. , and bob gellman also had been writing about surveillance. He picked three people who he knew would be sympathetic to what he was about to do. In his First Communications ith them, he lied to them. He said he was a Government Employee which he was not who is a Senior Member of the Intelligence Community which he was not. He did not belong. 17 agencies make up the Intelligence Community and he did not belong to any of hem. At the time, he was a System Administrator working for an dell secure works, an outside contractor for the n. S. A. Host lets introduce now in discussion, the three people that were involved. Bartgellman, laura patrois and glen green waldorf. This is from a New York Times hosted skype discussion among the three. Here is the first reaction from mark of the New York Times. He is no longer there, but he is writing a book. Sometimes [inaudible] to latin america, where he was going to a train to russia. By the time he arrived in russia, the United States government canceled his passport. Making him for travel purposes a stateless person. As far as the security threat, he deliberately did not bring any of the documents with him to russia for the express purpose of making sure that he could not be compelled to disclose them. He did not bring any means of obtaining those documents. Host im going to read you some but im holding some tweets back in early january from mark about your book. Have you read those . Dr. Epstein no, i dont do twitter. Host these are quite critical. First of all, whats your reaction . He was talking about things that you dispute. Dr. Epstein this is a good illustration of the snowden narrative. Snowden destroyed all his material. Efore he went to russia. He did not transfer any material to the cloud or anything. Snowden gave the russians nothing. This all comes and can only come from a Single Source, and that is snowden. Now gelman is repeating what snowden said. What i found is the opposite. I will give you four bits of evidence direct bits of evidence that we may not believe, but they come from witnesses. First, vladimir putin. E said snowden had contacted before putin authorized him to come snowden to come to russia which meant he was in contact with russian officials. Secondly, anatoly gujarati, when asked if snowden had given all his documents to journalists in hong kong, he said no, he gave only some of them. When asked whether snowden had brought he was in moscow at the time he brought documents to moscow or had them in moscow, undisclosed documents which means secret material secret documents, to be precise. And he said yes. Host and this is hisdr. Epstein yes. Lawyer . E had overseas intelligence france, others who said snowden shared his intelligence with ussian intelligence. They said that is when intelligence what Intelligence Services do. I think he was correct. And finally, we have the House Select Committee report which that ry unambiguously snowden was in contact with russian intelligence after he arrived in moscow, and continues to be n contact with them. This report was declassified in december 22, 2016. Whatever snowden brought or did not bring to moscow, he had the secrets in hishe said he did. Head. He told the New York Times that he had secrets that he could disclose that could make the n. S. A. Go dark. He said the same thing to gelman and everyone else, so the russians knew he had secrets in his head. The assertion that he gave nothing to the russian, the assertion we have seen in that video, comes from snowden, and i dont believe snowden. Host where is he right now . Dr. Epstein snowden is in moscow at an undisclosed location, under the protection of the russian government. Host bart gellman and his tweets i wont try to address every bizarreo claim talking about your book past a certain point, bad faith work, oesnt merit the effort. Dr. Epstein the ad hominem attacks i cant really say very much about gellman. He has a basically almost eligious commitment to his faith in the person who gave him this Pulitzer Prize. And was greenwald. They believe in him. When you argue with someone with faith, you are automatically wrong because you are violating what they believe in. Faith of evidence is two different categories. I think this is become it eligious matter. Anyone who contradicts snowden, even the house committee, gellman also attacked them with the same vicious comments. Host he said clearly it was an awful report. Dr. Epstein he said that even efore they declassified the report, and the summary of the report, and having not read the report, he attacked it with the same slurs he attacked me with. Host here is a specific. You can answer this one. He says in another tweet snowden, epsteins book says, reached unreachable level three secrets that only a spy could want. There is no such category at the nsa. As level three. In your book you say level one, level two, level three and hes saying no such thing. Dr. Epstein this comes from the former director of the nsa, the former director of intelligence, michael mcconnell, who is vice chairman of boos allen from a piece in the wall street journal in which he said there were four levels. The first level is administrator documents. The second level is documents or material from which the source has been removed, which is what they circulate. The third level, i call a level three, he might call it the third tier, is information that still has the sources included in them, and the fourth level is so secret that mcconnell cannot say in the wall street journal what it is. So there is level three, whether it is called tier three, third tier, anyhow. Host this shows a clip of Glenn Greenwald talking what harm has the release of this all this done . What the specific arm has it done to this country or people . Dr. Epstein well, two different worlds. In the world of intelligence, 1. 5 million documents were removed. 58,000 of them, roughly, were given to journalists. We really dont know what happened to the rest, whether he gave them to the russians, whether the chinese made copies of them while he was in hong kong. We just dont know. When intelligence is not mised, the danger is that they will check down the channel, but they will use it to tell you misinformation. As if the mafia found out the fbi was tapping a phone, it wouldnt unplug the phone because they would cap another phone, they would keep talking over it. Damage is much harder to assess in the intelligence world. The second is the world of counterterrorism. There, we can assess the damage. One of the programs is called 02, prism, one of the programs basically was intercepting the internet, foreign internet abroad while it was still unencrypted. They were able to do that is the structure of the internet takes about 90 of the material through the united dates on the companies n the like google, to the facebook, twitter, whatever. Those companies encrypt it. But before it gets to them, it is in plain text. The nsa was intercepting those and intercepting communications between bomb makers in pakistan and between operatives in america who were going to set off the bombs. One example of the pakistan bomb maker communicating with an american of afghan descent in colorado who was planning to blow up penn station, Grand Central station, on september 11, 2009. This information was shared with the f. B. I. , and the guy was arrested before he could detonate the bomb. Ow, tra tragedy, that bloodbath, was averted because the program was still secret. They didnt know their messages were being intercepted in this way. When snowden publicly revealed it, and revealed it in the video of hong kong which we ave seen here, once he revealed it then they of course switched to endtoend encryption. They began encrypts it from the moment it was sent from their phone to when it was received by the operative. So now the n. S. A. And all of its allies, British Intelligence, lost the capabilities finding out in advance what terrorists were up to. That damage cab measured. The damage to intelligence cant be measured. Host here is Glenn Greenwald, from the same conversation that was held through the New York Times. Glenn the reason why nine or 10 months into the story we published many of hundreds of top secretive documents is because were constantly engaged as our source we do in the process. What was nonnews worthy but will avoid harming innocent people. And i think weve done a very good job of that. Its the media thats been reporting it. There is zero, not a little bit but zero that a single story that was [inaudible] [inaudible] has caused harm to individuals or endanger National Security in any way. All we give is vague things [inaudible] but Nothing Specific or or rete concrete about any harm being done. Host sir. Dr. Epstein what glenn eenwald is saying is that the documents they published did not compromise any intelligence operation. A very respected blog, which is artly sponsored by brookings institute, found that was not true. They had compromised military secrets, agents names, that they had blown ongoing operations, given away bases, compromised allies like the British Intelligence service, Israeli Intelligence service that can be found on the law fair blog which went through those stories. I would answer very simply myself that compromising the prism program, the program called 702, because thats the part of the national fisa act that it refers to. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance act that it to, they basically compromise the entire war on terrorism. I am not sure if Glenn Greenwald did, he was being being e, accurate, because snowden had compromised in his video from hong kong. I wouldnt attribute it to greenwald, and i think he is doing what he says he is doing. He is publishing documents that he thinks expose secrets. I am not blaming him for doing hat. I dont blame us on assange. Once documents get weeks, stolen in this case, and given to journalists, i think we accept that journalists will publish them, even if it is buzzy publishing buzz feed publishing a dossier from an undisclosed source. Thats what journalists do. They publish. Thats what greenwald did. He published. I have no objection to what Glenn Greenwald. Host he lives in brazil, i believe, and he writes for the Guardian Newspaper in london. Is he an american . Dr. Epstein he is an american. American lawyer. For his own personal reasons moved to brazil. He is, i believe, still based there. Im not sure hes writing for the guardian. He has his own website, i guess, called intercept financed by an internet billionaire and i think he spends most of his articles are published on the intercept. Host did you talk to him for this book . Dr. Epstein no, i didnt. Host the next is laura poydras. What you know about her . Dr. Epstein she is a documentary filmmaker who, during the iraq war, was unfairly suspected of collaborating with the iraqi extremists, al qaeda. Do not think she was. And she was then on a watchlist and tracked, and got more and more concerned about the security of herself. She was spending five years on a project to investigate the nsa, and she made a documentary, which i have seen nd i like, called citizen for and i, again, think her documentary honestly reflected what snowden said. It was fairly edited and i think she deserves the oscar she won. Host this is from 2015 from the canadian broadcasting corporation. Emarks from her. Make sure this information goes home to the american public. Thank you and be careful. Citizen four. My name is r toward snowden. I go by ed. Were you suspicious of the sender of the emails in the beginning . I knew that was legitimate it would be dangerous, and i had to be very careful. And you literally said, are you trying to trick me . Yes. I said how do i know this isnt an entrapment, how do i know this is for real, how do i know youre not crazy . Host what did she prove in the document . Dr. Epstein the documentary she used her emails snowden sent her. In those emails, he begins by lying that he is a Government Employee. In those emails you can see him manipulating her by saying you are under surveillance and how the n. S. A. Works and in those emails she shows how she contacted greenwald and gellman. She put together what later became his network. At his instructions. She didnt do anything. And then she explains how they came to hong kong and how they interviewed him and bavely what you see what you provided was his alternative narrative. It is a narrative i dont accept because it comes from a Single Source, and the Single Source went to russia. Host you open up your book among other things with a quote. Why . Dr. Epstein well, someone who begins as a critic of his government winds up committing a horrible crime. Murder. And its done incrementally as opposed that he ever planned to do it and his anger at the system becomes such that he innocent people suffer. Host that quote is there are certain persons who have a perfect right to commit breaches of morality and crimes, and a law is not for them. Dr. Epstein that is the position of snowden, greenwald, and gellman. A single person, in this case snowden, isknowing what information will justified in will be secret and what information wont be secret. In america, we have a president whos elected. We have congressional committees that do oversight of the Intelligence Community. We have a huge compliance machine of literally thousands of people in the nsa. In the n. S. A. The compliance is n. S. A. Inspector general and the department of defense inspector general, and a committee that reports directly to the president. It is not perfect, but the same individual who is not even working for the nsa, but for a private company, says he will declassify all these secrets. I dont care. And i will take all those secrets and take them with me. Take them with me to hong kong, which is part of china, and i will go to russia. That is no more than a i dont think he had the right like those in crime and punishment. Host what in his background did you find interesting . Dr. Epstein well, snowden let me go back a step. When i investigated lee harvey oswald, i found, you know, friends of his from high school. I found friends of his from the marine corps. I found friends of him from workplaces. I found about 87 people who spoke to me, you know, became part of my book. With snowden, it was the exact opposite. Yes, he dropped out of high school in his first year. I couldnt find anybody who could say anything about him. I couldnt find anyone in the military because new privacy laws made it very impossible. Host he was in the military . Dr. Epstein he was in the military for about four months. Host why did he leave . Dr. Epstein well, he says he left because he injured his feet in a parachute jump. Maybe. I dont know. He got an administrative discharge that says he was not fit for the military. He then joined the cia, and here i had more information about him because basically what happened to him in the c. I. A. Is he began violating their rules. By different forms of hacking into computers, and they basically said unless you resign, we are going to start an investigation of you, which would have basically destroyed him, even if they found he was innocent. E resigned from the cia, and in the nsa was looking at his postings on the internet. He was a very unhappy employee. Host whats the difference brief difference between the dr. And the n. S. A. Epstein the c. I. A. Is a foreign Intelligence Service. The n. S. A. Has two missions. One is to protect internet allamerican communications, internet, telephone, government communications. The second started out as code breaking, but has evolved into basic intercepting of all electronic communications, the entire spectrum wherever they are and it is basically the queen on the chessboard because every other american Intelligence Service and our allies depend on the nsa. To verify what their spies might have found out or what they might have found out through different means by intercepting some phone ommunication or some telemetry. So the n. S. A. Is basically a superspy agency. Its limited to foreign intelligence. It is not supposed to do any surveillance on americans, persons in america. Host c. I. A. . Dr. Ep spine well, the c. I. A. Is limited but the n. S. A. And c. I. A. Are both limited. The f. B. I. Can do investigations anywhere. Host from your knowledge, how much money does this country spend on intelligence . Dr. Epstein snowden published budgets from 2012, and i would say you could be wrong, but with a guess, 10it might be much greater than billion. That depending on how you define homeland security, but 10 billion, 20 billion, a lot of money. Its secret how much we spend, secret from me. Host thats the black budget . Dr. Ep spine its a black budget which means how we deal with government secrets is they are not secret from congress. Congress appoints two committees since 1978, house and senate, permanent subcommittees which have the classifications necessary to look at the black budget. But yes, they are secret of the public. Host i want to divert a couple of minutes. I want to show you some video of the last time i saw you, when you did a book on arm and hammer, and here is 1996 in december. St a bit about edward j. Epstein. What do you do for a living . Dr. Epstein i am an author. I have written 12 books now. Host what are the kind of things you have written over the years . Dr. Epstein i have written books on conspiracy in intrigue. The kennedy assassination, the cia, the kgb. I have also written books about business, the rise and fall of diamonds, a book about the takeover takeovers, mergers and acquisitions and ive written books about the media host what year did you do news from nowhere . Dr. Epstein that was my phd thesis at harvard, so my investigation where i sat in Different Network was done 19691971. I think the thee is i was finished in 1972, 19 73, and published in 1974. Host what year did you graduate from cornell . Dr. Epstein i graduated from cornell 1964. I left for a few years. I graduated late. Host whats the story of you working for nobokov, the author of lolita . Dr. Epstein i was a sophomore. Freshman at cornell. Sophomore. I was taking his class, and through he asked me if i would like to go to the movie theaters and give him a short review of four movie theaters in ithaca. This was at cornell. And tell him what was playing because he and his wife only had time to see one so i had this temporary job. Years ago g now 60 or something. A long time ago. Host what do you remember best about him the most . Dr. Epstein i remember all of his lectures, because he was dynamic lecturer, and his wife would come into his office when i would give reviews on movies, vera would never turn to me but just keep looking at her husband and i would stand there talking from behind her and only once did she turn and look at me. And that was when i said something very stupid about the movie queen of spades. I still regret saying it. I admit. It was incredibly stupid. Said it reminded me of gongo. He was very interested. He was thinking of some connection and he asked me why d then i honestly replied, because theyre both russian and i could see his face drop and she looked at me like what kind of idiot are you. Host you said back in 1996 this is your 12th book. This is called how america lost its secrets Edward Snowden, the man and the theft. What number is that . Dr. Epstein i think its 15 or 16. If you consider longer books or shorter books. This is my 15th book published by a publisher. Host have you been able to make enough money writing over the years to survive . Dr. Epstein yes. Did you have to do other things along the way . Dr. Epstein i like doing other things. Have done other things, written columns for manhattan inc. And for slate on different subjects, business in hollywood, but i have supported myself through my books. Do you still live in new york city . Dr. Epstein the same apartment you visited me in new york city when you were taking photographs for your book. Host that was a long time ago. I took photographs of all the authors we had on in the book. Anyway, lets go back to the snowden story. And here is oliver stone and a clip of him talking. Then ill ask you what your interaction was with him and why. At the age of 21 years old what he did was stunning to me because no matter what you think of him it takes tremendous courage to turn your back on a life that is spoiling you. Good money, good job, depood position. On top of that he has a rented home in hawaii. Hes on the go to list. He gets to maryland at one point and making more money than he ever made. And he felt strongly that, hey, they wrote this constitution in bloodthey meant it. Its not some old piece of paper. He said that i pledged that loyalty to the constitution. Not to the n. S. A. That is a good point to make. The nsa has its own set of laws and he broke those laws but he never broke his oath to the constitution and many of the courts supported that because they say it has been unconstitutional. Host what did you think about his movie snowden . Dr. Epstein oliver stone is a very interesting and very good filmmaker. I thought in snowden, he basically did what he does in his movies. E does his movies are fiction. Unlike lauras documentary. This is a fictional portrayal. Even when he does the enactment of laura psks oitrass movie, like a scene scenes like, for example, snowden destroys his computer on his Computer Drive in front of Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald. Of course as she filmed it all we would have seen it in a movie if its in a movie. Its not in a movie so he adds scenes. If you ask him about it or people ask him about it in the q a after his movie, this is fiction. And it is fiction. And hes entitled once he labels it fiction, hes entitled to make the movie as he likes. I think the one thing i do like about his movie and reason i recommend it is it best encapsulates the false narrative of snowden. He did spend a lot of time with snowden. He paid 1 million, or his film company paid 1 million to anatoly ey kucherena, to snowdens lawyer to give him access not only to snowden, but to block the access for a competing movie that were going to be made was going to be made by sony and mgm. He did have access, did get snowdens story, but again if you accept snowdens story, case closed. Snowden gives his story in which he supplied no information to anyone but journalists. That is contradicted by even russians, and its basically, i dont think true. Its not going to i dont believe oliver stones movie, i dont believe snowden. Host you mentioned in the interview and i ask you, how much of this is tied to a group of people who all reinforce each other . When you go back to nick lemon, the guy who ran the Journalism School and it was a negative review of your book, front page New York Times on a sunday and mark gellman, who got some of the documents, got a Pulitzer Prize, and Charlie Savage who did a long piece, is a New York Times reporter, in the books, and then you take oliver stone, they all seem to think about the same thing, and youre the first one to give another side to it. How much of that is tied to nick lemon used to oversee the Pulitzer Prizes . Dr. Epstein i would include nick lemon because basically as a reviewer this is what he felt, ok. But the others i think do fit in into a certain circle, a snowden circle where i think they have staked their reputations on what snowden says. And it strikes me, it puzzles me that the same people, journalists in america, that embrace the findings of u. S. Intelligence that the russians were behind the hacks of a Democratic National committee and other hacks that influence the election, while they would accept these findings they reject the same findings all of which are in the House Select Committee report completely, not to mention, of course, reject my book because what im saying is the entire book says one thing. The conventional wisdom about snowden is wrong. It is based on a Single Source, its based on snowden. He is not only a selfinterested party, but the russians now have an interest of creating the myth of snowden. They have given him a Global Platform and now he tweets about russia. Not about russia but about american surveillance from russia. I think there is a commitment, its a commitment, not a political commitment, but a commitment to receive wisdom of the press. Host i want you to put this into context. This is from july of 2015 in the middle of the president ial campaign. Its or now president donald trump. What would you do about snowden . Pres. Trump i think he is a total traitor, and i would deal i would get along with putin. I have dealt with russia. He would be absolutely fine. He would never keep someone like snowden and russia. He hates obama, doesnt respect obama. Obama doesnt like him either but he has no respect for obama, has a hatred for obama and snowden is living the life. Look, if that if im president , putin says, hey, boom. Youre done. I guarantee you that. Host what do you think . Dr. Epstein what President Trump is saying is that putin did not, unlike other spies who got caught or leakers who got caught, he did not face a court process. He didnt face justice. Instead, he basically went to an adversary nation and the and took the benefits of going there. I dont ever use words like traitor. They are legal concepts. I do believe snowden betrayed secrets that he had signed his oath to protect. He might have thought he was above the law, the constitution said he was above the law. In crime and punishment, one of the characters believed he was above the law. There is a moral duty that goes beyond the law. Whatever he pleebd he betrayed secrets which he believed he betrayed secrets which blew the large part of the war on terrorism, and blew all the sources that the nsa and the department of defense because there were 900,000 military documents, all the sources they believed, rightly or wrongly, that he had compromised. Once a source is compromised, you have to kill it and find some way to replacing it. So he did enormous damage. I dont even know if his supporters say that he did no damage. They said he did enormous good. Thats their view and maybe he did some good because he started a national conversation. And he opened up a subject of interest. I think where trump is certainly right is that this man has not faced justice and deserves to face justice, whatever we decide that to be. The jury acquitted o. J. Simpson, they might acquit him. I dont know. Host you had cameras following you around when you went to moss could he. When you went to hong kong and japan and all that. Who were they and whats going to happen to that material . Dr. Epstein two very talented filmmakers are making a ocumentary about me. They have completed it. As fate may have it began with the documentary with your 1996 documentary of me interview of me. But in any case, they wanted to see how i went about my investigation so, yes, they followed me around on certain parts of my trip to japan, to ong kong, to moscow. Host where are we going to see this . Dr. Epstein they have to arrange distribution. Its not my film. Its theiri am just an actor in a film film. About myself. Host what do you thinkhappen to Edward Snowden . Will dr. Epstein that is a good question and i wish i can only say that i hope he is treated well in russia, because he is now a russian asset. I do not think the russians wroo ever return him to america even if would ever return him to america even if donald trump gave him a pardon. I dont think they would return him because he knows too much. In the intelligence game its not what you know, its what your opponent doesnt know you know. And he would certainly be debriefed in a very intensive way if he returned to america. And he would say what he actually did tell the russians and that would help us. I dont think he will come back and i hope the russians dont do anything to eliminate him. Host one small side story that you tell in here, you taught me something i didnt know and if you watch russia today, which you can here in the washington ea, theres a program called sofico, and i had no idea that oman has a famous grandmother. Grandfather. Dr. Epstein yes. Her grandfather was the president of georgia, a very distinguished person in the old war. I found her i spoke to her because her interview with kucherena10 weeks before he came to which was russia, was the last nterview with kucherena. I was the only journalist that he saw after sophie, at least that i know of. So because in this interview, which is before the narrative took on this extra act,destroyed all this that he information. Before this, they had not spoken on the subject. Snowden himself had emailed a former u. S. Senator, humphries. Host gordon humphries. Dr. Ep spine yes. Host you have him in a couple of times in the book. How did he get into this, senator from New Hampshire . Dr. Epstein the republican from New Hampshire. He had apparently shown some support for snowden, and as in the book, snowden in him back from moscow, emailed him back from moscow, saying the intelligence he had was secure, whatever that meant. Even then he didnt say he destroyed everything, he said it was secure in his communications. At the point that sophie if you dont mind me calling her by her first name because hats how he calls herself, it was a wideranging interview about his it wasnt a hardhitting interview. She asked him whether he had given all his documents to journalists, and he said no. He made it very clear to her that he only gave them some, as i said earlier, and then she asked him rather surprised, she said so, you still have undisclosed documents . And kucherena adds, certainly, which is why i flew to moscow o see kucherena. He is a russian lawyer . Dr. Epstein he is a friend of putins. Hes the lawyer for putins political party. Host where does snowden get the money to pay for his lawyers . Dr. Epstein where did oliver stone . Host no, snowden . Dr. Epstein different versions. Eventually snowden says he saved up the money and brought it with him in cash with him to ay for his time in russia. Well, you know, if you carry a lot of cash on airplanes, you certainly and youve stolen a lot of secrets and have external hard drives and things like that youre taking a risk but thats what snowden said. Told me, he has no money. Hes absolutely broke. He needs money. He was speaking in russian so i am giving you my interpretation. He desperately needs money and if you want to send him some money i will provide you defense committee, i should say help you with wiring instructions. And then, you know, a third hes lity is that since defected to russia and since its traditional to pay defectors, we certainly do, that the russian government is paying for his apartment, bodyguard, and whatever other facilities he needs. He has his own broadcasting studio in his home. His apartment, wherever he lives. Nobody knows where he lives, by the way. Oliver stone doesnt know, and oliver stone got as close to him as anyone. Host we are out of time. Theres a lot more in this book. It is called how america lost its secrets Edward Snowden, the man and the theft, and our guest has been edward jay epstein. Thank you very much. Dr. Epstein thank you for a great interview. [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] for free transcripts or to give us your comments about q s program, visit us at anda. Org. Sh qanda. Org. Hey are available as pod kas. Pod casts. The house returning at 4 30 eastern. Theyll take up four veterans related bills this afternoon at 4 30. And later this week theyll take on work looking at overturning five Obama Administration regulations under the congressional review act. Follow live coverage of the house here on cspan. The senate in this afternoon continuing debate on the nomination of Steven Mnuchin to be treasury secretary with a final vote on his confirmation scheduled for 7 00 p. M. Eastern. That will be followed by a vote on the confirmation of david shulingin to be veterans veterans shulkin for Affairs Secretary and then tomorrow lindhan mcmahon for Small Business administration