Transcripts For CSPAN2 Book Discussion On The Real Custer 20150131

[applause] thank you, glenn. Id also like to thank carlene and pauline, all the Hudson Library team. Its been great meeting some of you in the audience too. Ive had a really wonderful visit here. Its great to be back home in ohio, you know its good to shake off inside the beltway every now and then. You know . Washington right . As we heard George Custer was from 80 miles south of here. If you have a chance, you can go visit him. Also grant Sherman Sheridan all have ohio roots one way or another, either born or raised here. As a friend from mississippi said, you have a lot of bloody bastards from your state. [laughter] i guess it depends on what side youre on, but [laughter] anyway. One question i get about my book the real custer, is why is that the title . What makes your book the real custer . There are a lot of custer books. I think the easiest way to answer that question is to say thats what the publisher wanted. [laughter] so okay, thats the title. But i think its really better to view it not as a conclusion like this is the real custer, but rather more like a question; who is the real custer . What do we know about this guy . Little bighorn is so pervasive when you talk about George Custer. Its like thats the whole man just the mistakes that he made on that day. But thats not the case. He had a whole life and a whole character, and he was a whole person. So really the book is about trying to get to the root of that question. Who was this man . If we can strip away all of the things that have been written since then all of the history, Everything Else and just really talk about the man himself. So thats really what its supposed to be about. Little bighorn, the famous anheuserbusch advertisement that they commissioned that became most peoples view of what happened on that day. For example, one of the most talkedabout guys in American History, probably the most writtenabout battle, this and gettysburg. Gettysburg, of course, where custer also fought and played a key role. Hes been lionized hes been demonized, hes been heralded hes been mocked hes been mentioned in books, articles, media of all sorts movies. This is a 1926 movie, you know, dramatizing that. Hes more famous today hes more mentioned today in books than he was at the height of his fame. Hes more mentioned today in books than he ever was ever in history. You can look up the statistics. It just keeps going up. Custers just immensely famous. And part of what were going to talk about is what hes famous for. Here he is being portrayed by Ronald Reagan in the historicallychallenged film santa fe trail. [laughter] where George Custer does a bunch of stuff that he never, ever did. [laughter] but, you know, its a movie what do you want . And, of course, john brown is featured in this movie, and we talk about the great collection here of john brown materials. Heres errol flynn as custer in they died with their boots on. Probably the most noted in terms of the 20th century, at least in the middle 20th century, this was the image of custer that people most associated with him. Errol flynn captured kind of the seriousness and also the boyishness and custer the prankster and things like that, which well talk about. So he really captured that custer and became kind of symbol of that. But then as the custer myth grew, he became kind of this tragic and blemished hero that you know everything was great about him. And when you raise someone up to that level of being a superhero its pretty easy to then transfer them into being the supervillain. And so after the 1960s and into the ooh 70s when 70s when that sort of thing took hold many our culture in our culture, then rather the heroic custer we had this custer from Little Big Man where we have Richard Mulligan playing him as this kind of psycho [laughter] well, you know a selfimportant chaotic cruel, random kind of guy who just made bad decisions all the time and wasnt even aware of any of this. So, i mean, that custer became, became the real custer to many people. He was a blow hard, he had no military ability whatsoever, he was an indian hater, genocidal main yak and things like this maniac and things like this. So that really became a dominant image of custer in the last 30 years or so 30 or 40 yearsment now we have representation years. Now we have representation like this from night at the museum, i dont know if youve seen this movie [laughter] of general custer and ben stiller. Thats bill hater playing custer hader playing custer. In which he laments, ill always be famous for my biggest failure. But in a way for people who like custer, this is progress because in this movie hes actually one of the good guys. Sure hes this, you know, klutzy lovable loser, but at least hes one of the good guys in this movie. So a little bit of a different thing. And along the way weve had custer comics, we have had custer the action figure theres night at the museum at the bottom. Weve had custer, the play set. And innumerable books, articles, songs, movies tv every medium possible talking about general custer. So whether he approves of that, i dont know. [laughter] because hes not amused. So, but why him, why George Custer . Why is he so famous . Why is he more famous today than ever in his life . Hes not famous for nothing. I mean, you can do that these days. [laughter] these days you can be famous for nothing, you know . [laughter] there are lots of people who are famous for nothing. Or the corollary to that is something you say in washington its full of famous people that youve never heard of. [laughter] but it wasnt just that he had long hour or that he wore a tie or long hair or that he wore a tie or that he was eccentric or acted crazy. He was famous for reasons and so were going to talk about some of those. So lets take him back a few years. There he is. George custer. Cadet custer at west point. Custer the goat. Cadet John Montgomery wright who was a plebe when custer was in his third year described him as an indifferent soldier, a poor student, a royceering reckless cadet always in trouble, always playing some mischievous pranks and liked by everyone. That was custer at west point. He said his career at west point was an example to be carefully avoided by future cadets. Now, he was goat of his class he was the last in his class, and, you know, the title of my other book thats out there, and what does that mean . Does that mean that he was a dummy, that he, you know, that he couldnt hack it . Well no, because there are actually two types of people who come in at the bottom of the class at west point. One type are the people who they get to west point, its really hard, theyre in over their head they struggle, they do what they can they study all the time and they just, they squeak in right at the bottom. Thats one type of goat. The other type is the guy who gets to west point and says, i can handle this. I know i can graduate from this place. I dont care about grades, i dont care about class rank. So instead of studying, im just going to have a good time to the extent that i can, and then at the last minute ill just cram, and ill just squeak through. And that was cadet custer. He was from that type of cadet. There have been many cadets like that. George pickett another example example speaking of people famous for blowing it. [laughter] so he would spend his time going to benny havens tavern nearby, you know, sort of going off post highly illicit activity, going in the middle of the night to enjoy some rum flips and have other escapades. He would try to get together with, you know visiting debutantes or whoever might be around because at the time west point, particularly in the summer, was a tourist destination, and they had hotels on the post. So naturally, the cadets were investigating who might be checked in. And custer was definitely amongst that group. And playing pranks and doing other things devilments and generally getting in trouble this is what custer did. He had a talent for that. But i i think whats more important for understanding custer is he had a talent for getting out of trouble. A lot of guys got in trouble, and they got expelled. But George Custer for whatever reason whether his charisma or he was just lucky he would get out of the trouble that he got into. And another thing was he never questioned the institution or its purpose. He never, you know, when they caught him, fine you caught me. I will take my punishment. He said, if you break the rules you have to take your punishment. And so he began racking up a lot of delinquencies. His actual first page of his listening think record of lengthy record of delinquencies and demerits that he earned. As he said, they werent extraordinary in what they were but just in their number. [laughter] you know, not great offenses but many of them. So he was able, he was able to mow walk that fine line to somehow walk that fine line. He could get in just enough trouble that he could still graduate, and this went right up to the end of his west point career when he was courtmartialed the day before graduation. So, you know, he ran it right up to the end. But the thing about the goats and the people at the bottom of the class generally and also in particular custer you get a different type of officer at the bottom of the class. I mean the topoftheclass guys, your robert e. Lees theyre by the book, theyre very methodical thinkers, they know all of the theories of war they apply them and so forth. The guys at the bottom they tend to be a little more freespirited, they tend to be a little bit more outsidethebox thinkers a little bit more unorthodox because thats the kind of west point career they were pursuing. And that certainly was true of custer. And another insight into him that we get from his west point days is his bravery. Because when they caught him, they caught him, and he would admit it. Cadet wright said that his bravery in battle did not surprise anyone who had seen him walking up with calm deliberation to the head of the section room to face the instructors with the confession he knew nothing of the lesson. So he would just walk up and take it. Thats the kind of guy he is. Now, he could have done better at the academy if he followed the rules. He wasnt dumb. He had gone to Stephens Academy in Monroe Michigan and performed well when he was younger. He was actually a School Teacher before he went to west point. And he, according to his brother, he was reading books all the time. Not that you could tell from west Point Library records but nevertheless, he read a lot of books. So he budget a dummy he wasnt a dummy he just wouldnt have been custer if he spent all his time studying. And then getting courtmartialed and delaying his fellows at the war. When the civil war came and this was really the thing that made Custer Custer in my opinion. It was a terrible thing for west point because the band of brothers, you know, the cadets, the corps of cadets had to split between the northerners and the southerners. And custer had a lot of friends on the Southern Side who also happened to be lower down in the class. But a lot of them were his friends. And he had to go fight them. They still remained friends but that was the way it was. But the war became the perfect arena for him to display his talents. He rushed from west point to the battlefield probably faster than any graduate of the military academy in history. Within four days he was delayed. His class went on. He was busy being courtmartialed. This was in the summer of 1861 when things were getting a little bit hot. Within four days he went from west point to new york to washington. He got an assignment he ran up into Northern Virginia got there in time, as he said, to run with the rest from bull run and then back to arlington all in the space of four days. So and with very little sleep. He realized quickly that what he would like to do in this war was be an aide to higher commanders. And Brigadier General kearney was the first person who took him as an aide. And custer realized that this doing this he had a lot of freedom of action which was very important to him to be able to sort of do things and make things happen. Rather than just being with his unit all the time, he would be like the eyes and ears of his commander. He would also be at headquarters when things were going to happen. He could volunteer to get involved in them. Or in some cases he would just go out and like, get involved in stuff just because he knew that he could, and no one would object, you know, because he was on some generals staff. If he shows up, hell just say he was there because the general sent him there. And sometimes that was true. [laughter] so that gave him, like are, flexibility to do things and that very much fit his style of doing things. This is, this is a drawing of custer crossing the river which is part of the custer myth of, you know, if the story isnt true, just print the myth of where during the Peninsula Campaign when the union army was faced with the river which is extraordinarily difficult to cross, according to the story mcclellan and his staff were kind of going up and down the river trying to figure out where to cross, they didnt know what to do. They didnt know how deep it was, they were arguing about it and custer just jumped in and said its this deep. [laughter] you know . Not exactly true. Thats kind of the comical story. The actual story is a lot more dangerous because he did jump in the river. Mcclellan wasnt there. The chief of engineers was there. And custer just got in the river and started doing a reconnaissance of where to find the fords under the observation of the enemy and he did this several times, so it was highly dangerous. Not only that, but then he led an assault across the river once he found a crossing point where they seized some guns and prisoners and, you know, caused a lot of trouble before retreating. They were just showing that it could be done. But this is what brought him to the attention of mcclellan and who then took him and made him his aide. And so custer had a lot of freedom of action then to do a lot of different things. The problem with that though was if you attach yourself to a high ranking general, you better hope the guy is successful. Because if he declines, you are likely to go with him and thats exactly what happened. George mcclellan wasnt fighting the war the way lincoln wanted, so he lost his command, and then custer lost his influence which, you know, wasnt so good for him. But along the way he had been having a lot of interesting adventures. So then he became the aide to general pleasantton shown here, which was very lucky for him. He didnt know it at the time. Pleasantton had seen him around the time of the battle of antitam doing some brave things, charging into battle, being generally heroic and thought okay, thats the kind of guy i want. Because pleasantton had this idea that he wanted to reorganize the Union Cavalry corps, but he didnt have the authority to do it. Well, this is where luck comes in. Luckily for custer, lee invades pennsylvania, right . The Gettysburg Campaign is happening. So around that time lee invades general hooker whos sort of on the outs with lincoln, so hes fired, and general mead is elevated. Well pleasantton is friends with mead. The first guy mead meets with when hes elevated to command is pleasantton and says, hey, what do we need to do to stop general lee . Pleasantton says well, ive been thinking about that. What we need to do is reorganize the cavalry corps, and what i want to do is elevate a bunch of young guys to be generals so we can build this thing so we can go after jeb stewart and we can fight these guys. And so pleasantton already had custer in mind to be one of his guys. In fact, he raised three guys to general who were in their 20s. There was custer, there was farnsworth and merit. Custer was the youngest of the bunch at 23. So thats how he got to be the boy general. Its because, you know this various circumstances happened. But they wanted these guys to be leading the cavalry brigades as an offensive arm to be able to go after jeb stewarts rebel cavalry and fight them oneonone the way the rebels had been fighting them. And according to pleasantton, what they needed were people who could just, you know, charge into battle and get it done. And he had seen meritt and farnsworth and custer do this at various points so those were his guys. So at 23 the youngest general officer, Brigadier General in the history of the u. S. Army to that time. He was later superseded by pennypacker great name of the 97 pennsylvania regiment. 20 years old when he, as a colonel, when he led the assault on fort fisher in january of 1865 where he was shot to pieces. And on his death bed to honor him, he was promoted to Brigadier General. Then he lived. [laughter] he got better. So they bumped him up to major general. Anyway so in addition to having and it wasnt just lucky. I dont want to downplay his promotion to general. It wasnt just luck, he earned it. But luck was the circumstances that led to it, but he earned it through the various charges that he led and battles that he fought frequently just joining units in battle that he had no business being joined with. He just went out and did it. So now he had a whole brigade to fight with. And four days later there he is on day three of gettysburg. And im sure youre all familiar with the story of the battle of gettysburg, but custer was on the right flank. And, again, because kind of luck e key because general gregg who was not his commander general kilpatrick was his commander, kilpatrick was doing stuff at this end of battlefield, but gregg needed some people over here, and there was custer. And he said, okay, were going the this way because something bad is going to happen and i need guys. Custer said, okay, no problem. And sure enough greggs instincts were right because here comes the confederate cavalry swooping around trying to get around the union right flank in support of picketts charge which was going on, you know, in the center of the battlefield. So thats where custer really reached National Fame with his consecutive charges at gettysburg. You know the famous come on you wolverines, with his michigan regiments one after another spending each regiment against superior forces, i but with the idea that he was going to stop slow down or otherwise confuse what the confederates were doing. And as it turned out, it worked. The union side left the field. Yeah, they left the field because they beat ya. [laughter] the way he reported wasnt quite accurate. He was the one who left the field. They left it later when you were gone. But after that so the boy general with the golden locks he was famous. Also another important thing was he convinced the men that he was lead anything the michigan brigade who were wondering why this 23yearold kid was suddenly their general, through that battle he convinced them that okay he has a right to be in command because look at him go. This guy really knows how to fight. And so what if hes wearing, you know, kind of a an eccentric uniform, you know, with gold lace and a red tie and, you know this blue collar and stuff. It doesnt matter. He can wear all of that one of his men said he can wear all the gold lace he wants if he can fight like that. So that really cemented custer as someone who had National Fame. Also as he started making friends with reporters which, you know doesnt hurt. The New York Times was following him around. Well why . Because they knew they were going to get a good story. Youre going to spend your time following somebody around follow the guy whos actually going to fight and give you a good story. Its not just, again not famous for nothing. Its not like he had the reporters follow him around and didnt give them a story. He did and thats why they loved him. Plus other commanders wouldnt even talk to reporters. Sherman had one courtmartialed because he didnt like the guy. So, you know the history of civilmilitary relations. Custer, however, had he maintained a Good Relationship with pleasantton who was the head of the cavalry corps, but he had a very bad relationship with kilpatrick, his commander. It seemed like every time something went wrong in their division kilpatrick was blamed, but if it was right, custer got the credit. And he didnt like that very much. Ultimately tried to sideline custer. And something called the dolgren raid, he sort of sent custer on a Suicide Mission behind confederate lines not really caring if custer came back or not. As it turned out, the main force of the raid he was involved in turned into a tragedy. Kilpatrick didnt get killed dolgren did who was son of the secretary of the navy. It was a big fiasco, and it kind of ruined kilpatricks career in the east. Custer meanwhile, did this brilliant maneuver behind rebel lines and captured prisoners and came swooping back, didnt take any casualties and, you know, saved the day. So he got to meet with the president , he was, you know, he was meeting with members of congress, and it was just beautiful for him. So kilpatrick kind of blew it. Around this same time we have another reorganization where grant comes in from the west. He brings sheridan along. Pleasantton, an unfortunate casualty of this raid which he had opposed, is sent west. And sheridan comes in, and now sheridan is going to be the head of the cavalry. And custer and sheridan really hit it off well. Custer really he became sheridans righthand man. He could fight the war that they wanted to fight. Lincoln had grant, grant had Sheridan Sheridan had custer. And they were fighting the kind of war that lincoln wanted; an aggressive offensive, getitdone kind of thing. So this was all very good for custer. He had in the sense that it gave him the opportunity to fight in many battles which is what he wanted to do and to excel at that. Its not that he won every time or, you know sometimes he got in some pretty tough scrapes but he always got out of them. And in the book i found every report i could find of custer being reported killed. Just because its really because when you look at little bighorn and the first reports of his death no one believed it because there were so many reports of him being dead. In fact, poor Libby Elizabeth custer, his wife who was in washington at the time, heard news boys below her window saying extra, custer killed and things like this and had to deal with that before it was proved that he was actually alive. So he becomes the instrument of this new style of aggressive war thats really going to destroy the confederacy. Heres the statute of him in monroe which which is at the moment of sighting the enemy at gettysburg where hes trying to figure out whats he going to do about all of this. Heres the sketch of custer and his men scouring the Shenandoah Valley in the summer of 1864 when grant decided that the way to, the way to deal with the confederacy was to destroy their bread basket, and so they went and burned all the farms they could find in the lower part of the valley. And custer was one of the guys who did that. It was during this that he was elevated to a Division Commander, and shortly after this he was made a major general. He won some significant victories during that period, cedar creek is pretty well known. He played a big role in that one. Another one id like to point out is toms brook. Heres a sketch from that battle. Also known as the woodstock races in which he faced off with one of his west point classmates thomas tex rosser who was a confederate cavalryman, and they fought each other throughout the war. But in this particular battle before the sides were lined up, the confederates were in this really strong position behind a creek and on a hill kind of dug in and ready to receive the union attack. Custer was lined up on the other side up on a hill having to go down beyond this broken terrain and if you go there, its pretty imposing terrain down over this creek and attack them. And before they mounted the attack custer rode out in front of the line doffed his cap. He could see rosser up on the hill, you know, here we are were going to attack you now. Like the knight t of old, here we are. And rossers saying to his aide see that guy down there . Thats custer. Were going to give him a whupping today, the whupping of his life. And this is part of custer being a showoff, hes being a showboat. Well, thats one way to look at it but meanwhile custer had sent three regiments on this planking maneuver kind flanking maneuver kind of using terrain, and custer was making sure that all eyes were on him while this unit, this strike force was going around and getting ready to hit them in the flank. And so when he made his charge across this really bad ground and the other side was getting ready to hit him they got hit in the flank they panicked, they broke and ran. Thats what really happened. So no, it wasnt custer showing off, this was just part of the genius he had her tease things. For these things. This is how he understood battle. Battle isnt just who has the most guns. Custer had this instinct. When you look at all the battles he fought he would just know he just had this intuitive sense where to send his forces, where to hit the enemy, when did it look like they were breaking when did it look like they were too strong and we have to try something else. He was just good at it. And the more battles he fought the better he got. So we say hes maybe famous for nothing . No. Hes famous because he got it done and he was a natural born warrior. And he just knew how to do it. So after this when you look at the april of 1865 when the confederate line around rush monday and petersburg was broken and custer played a big role in that at the battle of five forks, then you have this pursuit for a week towards appomattox where lees army was trying desperately to swing south and link up with johnsons army which was being driven by sherman, up through the carolinas. And the union forces were meanwhile trying to keep lee from doing this to keep them separated. And it was custer who was leading all this. He was way out in front trying to, you know block the different positions that the confederates are trying to go block the bridges, block the railroads and just magnificently fighting for days on end with men with little rest talking whole regiments prisoner at a time. When he u. N. Accelerated subverted a confederate regiment, he would take their banner and whoever captured it, he would put it behind them in this personal bodyguard that he had. So custer would be riding along followed by 20 guys with confederate banners showing, you know, these are the people that we have defeated. I mean, its almost medieval when you think about it, you know . Just demoralizing as heck to the confederates to see this. And then finally, finally it was custers guys who blocked lee at appomattox, you know, backed him in appomattox courthouse and forced the surrender of lees army. And heres custer accepting the flag of truce for that suspended the fighting so lee and grant could meet at mcqueen house and negotiate the terms of surrender. And so typical custer, where is he as history is being made, this great historic meeting one of the greatest meetings of American History, these two west pointers from north and south who are coming to end this national cataclysm . You know custer who brought it about where is he . Hes off joking around with some confederate west pointer buddy of his that he hadnt seen in a long time. Rather than be at this historic meeting with, you know, sheridan and all, you know hes out screwing around. Thats George Custer. You know . Thats just the kind of guy that he was. By the way, with respect to the surrender flag, he had it sent to libby, and she was disappointed that it was just a dish towel. [laughter] she thought about it. Armies dont really carry around these beautiful surrender flags. [laughter] its probably a bad idea to carry those around, but in any case [laughter] so there he is. I mean, this is april of 1865 this photo. Hes a major general. Hes 25. Hes spent his entire career, i mean, he went directly from west point to the war, and then he spent four years fighting the greatest war of the 19th century with the biggest armies ever in the history of mankind, fighting in not just fighting in, but playing a significant role in critical battles that shamed the history of that that shaped the history of that war x. So here he is. Now what . Where do you go after that . Where do you go in your career . What do you do with your life after that . I mean, hes only 25 when this photo was talkin. So what do you photo was taken. So what do you do . Well, he had options. He could have gone into politics. One of his regimental commanders became governor of michigan, for example. Custer could have been governor of michigan easy. It was there for the taking. He could have been in congress, he could have been a senator. He could have written his own ticket in politics no doubt. He could have looked at a diplomatic post. He was thinking oh, maybe i could be an ambassador. Some people were doing that. There was an idea that he would go to mexico and fight with the mexican rebels who were fighting against the puppet government that had been set up by the french down there. In fact, he was going to go. The secretary of state got in the way of that and said it might be a diplomatic incident. But he was raring to go for that. So he could have, you you know, maybe he could have gone into business although he didnt really have a head for that but who knows . He could have. He could have done many things, but instead he stays in. He stayed in the army. And this is when things start to go wrong. First thing is he goes down to louisiana and texas because guess what . The wars still on. The wars still going on. There was still some resistance for a while. And then there was an expectation that there would be more resistance, and through an abundance of caution the government was keeping some regiments in uniform. Volunteer regiments who, you know from states of people who thought the war was over who wanted to go home. And so there was a lot of desertion. And in order to deter this custer had some guys whipped. Well, this budget so good because this wasnt so good because there are things you can do during the war, i mean, they were hagging people, you know in hanging people, you know . Or do you know the expression branded a deserter . Well take it literally, because back in the day thats what they did, they would brand you. So there were punishments. But you cant really do this in peacetime k. And even though technically the war was still going on, in fact most people thought it was over. So this got him some very bad press. He went from the, you know the goldenhaired hero to the hero of the lash. And particularly in iowa which the regiment where some guys were whipped, you know the Iowa Legislature passed a condemnation of custer and just didnt look good. So that was bad. The postwar drawdown affected him because once the war was over, we didnt need a whole bunch of generals. So he reverted to his regular army rank of captain. Well captain, fine, but he just did all this great, heroic stuff, cant he get Something Better . Okay, they bumped him up to Lieutenant Colonel and made him Deputy Commander of a new regionment, the 7th cavalry. Well, custer had been a Division Commander in the war, he helped win the war. Everyone told him, sheridan, grant, all these guys hey, you helped us win the war why cant i no. Youre going to be a regimental Deputy Commander. Well, okay, you know hell take it, but he wasnt happy. So then in order to try to improve his station, he got linked in with supporting president johnson who, of course succeeded lincoln. And got involved in politics. Trying to promote the idea of this new centrist coalition. Because no one knew what was going to happen after the war politically. Everyone knew what was going on before the war. You had the northern democrats, southern democrats republicans, you know, assorted others. But the Republican Party had been an abolitionist party. Well slaverys gone, you know . The southern democrats had been for slavery. Well, its gone. So how is it going to sort out . And one theory was oh theyll be like this northern democrats and exrebels and disaffected people from the Republican Party will get together and form the centrist thing and thatll be the new dominant force. And so custer got involved in that kind of politics. Well, bad move because what really happened was the republicans took over. I mean, even without ab lugsism as abolitionism as an issue, it didnt matter anymore. They had a new issue. They won the war. Thats a much stronger issue. And all of the relationships that were made during the war became political relationships after the war. And to the great benefit of ohio, i might add. Because if you look at all the ohio president s that followed the civil war, all veterans and mostly they fought in the same unit. So custer big miscalculation on custers part. But the thing is ever since he had been on mcclellans staff he had ducked the idea that his reputation of being a mcclellan man who, of course, was antilincoln and a democrat so he always, you know with republicans in charge he always had to sort of put distance between those ideas which were true, by way. By the way. He was a mcclellan man. He loved mcclellan and he was a democrat all his life. So the drawdown, the stuff in texas and louisiana bad politics it wasnt good for custer. Then he had another problem which is frontier duty. He was not a frontier warrior. Hed never been out there. He didnt know anything about that. He was a conventional warrior in, you know the classical sense. He fought the civil war, had you know forceonforce battle if you want to call it that. He faced the same problems that we faced in vietnam, afghanistan and iraq. What do you do about counterinsurgency . Pause, essentially, thats because, essentially, thats the kind of warfare we fought against the indians. It wasnt Like Fighting the confederacy. The confederacy, you know, they would stand up and fight you. The indians would run away and then ambush you later when you were all strung out. They had their own way of fighting. It was totally different. But well adapted to their environment. Custer had a taste of this chasing moseby during the war. It didnt work then either. He couldnt find them, and it didnt work out well. General john gibbons said that glory on the plains meant being shot by an indian from behind a rock and having your name spelled wrong in the newspapers. [laughter] you know . Thats its a different kind of war. Just not what custer was used to. And the thing about that is he fought fewer battles in his next ten years than he did in his last year of the civil war. And they were mostly small battles. When you look at the scale of combat of custer on the plains, totally different. And little bighorn was, like, the really big one. And even little bighorn if you look at the number of casualties there, you know, a couple hunker compare that to antietam, for example. Nothing. Just very, it was a very small engagement by civil war standards, but thats what custer was used to at the time. So all of this added up to here he is on the plains talking to pawnee killer an indian chief who was causing him some difficulties during the 867 campaign 167 campaign against the cheyenne. And here he is later wondering about life. He was courtmartialed at the end of that campaign for some people say he was a scapegoat because general hancock who had run the campaign had done a bad job, and they needed somebody to blame it on, and they blamed it on custer. On the other hand, custer did abandon some of his guys in the field, and he had some deserters shot and did some other things that got him courtmartialed. So, you know, you be the judge. You can read the records and see. Its in the book too, but custer thought he was framed and he was being scapegoated. Sheridan agreed with him but it didnt matter, he was still courtmartialed and suspended for a year. So, you know just two years after the civil war when he was a great hero now hes suspended from duty. And has to take a year off. A bad time for custer. He didnt let it show. He spent a lot of time hunting fishing, that kind of thing. But it wasnt good. Then he was resurrected because the problem with the indian wars was you couldnt find the enemy. Its the same problem today. When you can find the guerrillas, you know if theyre taliban or, you know the islamic state, whoever it happens to be, if you can find em, you know what to do. The problem is finding them. Well, someone came up with the idea later credited to sheridan how about Winter Operations . Get em in the wasnt when they cant move in the winter when they cant move around a lot. Isnt that going to be harder for the army to do . Yeah, but its even more hard for the indians to move. Okay. So they mount a winter operation, and they need someone whos going to test this concept, and who are you gonna call . They call custer. They cut his sentence a month short and thats where we get this wassita massacre depending on which side you want to take on that debate and custer led this operation against black kettle, a cheyenne chief who previously figured in something tragically called the sand creek massacre where his people were attacked. I really feel sorry for black kettle he keeps getting into these things. Not after this, though, because he got killed. But this brought custer back because from the armys point of view and for much of the public point of view this particular attack validated the concept of winner operations and showed that the indians could be defeated. To the critics of it, it was an attack on a peaceful village of people who were minding their own bids and then the cavalry own business and then the cavalry came and slaughtered everybody. You know, the actual number of People Killed is disputed, the number of women and children killed is disputed. There are a lot of disputes about this but the important thing to note well two important things. Number one, there is an argument about it. Number two its what brought custer back. Because in the eyes of his superiors, he did a great job. So so after this he reinvents himself as a frontiersman. Heres a picture taken in a studio. Obviously, outside in kansas city. And, you know, he becomes a great buffalo hunter. Heres an illustration of his first buffalo hunt where he managed to kill his own horse. [laughter] and people say, you know, ive heard people criticize, oh, he didnt know what he was doing. Like George Custers not a good horseman, are you kidding me . He was a brilliant horse match, he made a mistake horseman he made a mistake. Theres his horse laying there. Which was also libbys favorite mount and was captured from [inaudible] the only reason we know about it is because custer wrote about it. He was out alone on the plains trying to gun down this big bull buffalo which was probably a mistake. [laughter] but he wrote about it. So, you know oh, he was this arrogant guy. Well he admitted this mistake. Thats a pretty good mistake to admit if youre an arrogant guy to, you know hold yourself up to that kind of mock erie. I think that mockery. I think thats actually very characteristic of custer, that he would admit his foibles. He could laugh at himself which is not something that you usually hear about him but i think its true. He had ive lost my picture. There we go. His wife libby by his side throughout this, his childhood crush, he says. She didnt notice him when they were younger, she says. He noticed her and then won her hand over the objections of her father who finally relented when he became a general because okay, a generals good enough for my daughter. Good way to look at it. And outwardly, an amazing romance. They were together whenever possible. Theres some terrific stories regarding their marriage and their romance. My favorite one is that when the confederacy collapsed and left richmond, she was on a congressional tour that went down there very soon after and she got into richmond before he did. He was coming back from appomattox and met her there. She was staying in Jefferson Davis bedroom at the time, and thats where they were reunited. So, you know, wow. Can you imagine that life . And in their 20s . Come on. [laughter] its really, i mean, its really something. Just tremendous circumstances that they lived in. And then but there is this rumor of custer being a ladies man. Thats not libby, by the way, that hes kissing there. [laughter] i love the expression of the matron behind them. [laughter] who is shocked. This was at a, this was at a reception that he and president grant and shrman were at where sherman were at where the ladies just started kissing the generals. Kind of a comical circumstance, but it did make the papers. And there was this idea that you know custer was having various relations and allegedly somewhere, someone says that theres a list. Ive never seen this. Supposedly in the secret papers of libby that no one has ever seen, theres a list of all the women that George Custer was seeing on the side. Well, produce this list. Everyone wants to see it. I dont know what was going on. But i do know this a lot of what we know about custer and other women comes from letters that george wrote to libby. He would talk about, you know theres one where hes in new york on a business trip, and, oh, yeah theres this 19yearold blond that keeps walking by the hotel shes trying to catch my attention so i went out and talked to her for a while. Gentlemen, why would you write this to your wife . [laughter] seriously. Is this going to promote good feelings at home . I dont think so. Or this Indian Princess they captured, the maiden with the dancing eyes who was, you know supposedly very beautiful. Well again, how do we know this . He wrote to libby all about her. [laughter] oh, shes beautiful, she laughs at all my jocks. Luc by my jokes. Libby got out to where he was very quickly. [laughter] yes, she got out and got to hum. So, you know, why would he do this . So maybe he was a ladies man doing all these thing or maybe he was just communicating to libby that he was, you know a popular guy and maybe she should pay more attention to him, i dont know. So who can say . Another, another dig at custer, probably the one you hear the most these days that he was this genocidal indianhater that he, you know, he would kill indians at the drop of a hat and that was just like his thing in life. And this is not true. Thats not true. Its a much more nuanced picture. I mean, he was a man of his times, no doubt. But he said there was Nothing Better he wrote about the indians. He lived near them. He dealt with them. Side by side than living with them at peace where you could be amongst them, you could witness their culture, you could see their custom and all of their trades. He thought it was fascinating. He observed them objectively. He wrote positive things, he wrote negative things. He wrote about the reservation system and how he thought it was killing their spirit so that the spirit of the india is to be free indian is to be free and that when you go on the reservation, they lose their culture, they start drinking and, by the way, george did not drink. He didnt smoke either. He said and it ruined them. He was a severe create cantic of this. He thought critic of this. He thought the indians were much better when they were living their own lives and their own culture. And he saw this with, here are indian scouts who loved him. One said he had the heart of an indian. And, indeed, he wrote if he were one of them, if he were a member of a tribe he would not be someone on the reservation are. He would be one of the dissenters riding free across the plains like the crazy horses and the sitting bulls. Those were the people he admired because they were hanging onto what made them who they were. So that doesnt sound like, you know, he was just this indian killer to me. This sounds like he tried to reach an understanding of who they were, and he found things to admire. And i think the things he most admired about them were things he saw in himself that he liked. Thats my take on custer and the indians. Everyone said, oh, yeah, but he fought them and he killed them. Yeah, why did he do that . He was a soldier. He was a soldier, and the hostile bands were enemies. And when he he went after thenmy, thats what he did. He burned indian villages . Yeah sometimes. Do you know what else he burned . The Shenandoah Valley. And if you want to do like a body count, add up the number of probable indian deaths that he was responsible for directly or indirectly against the number of confederates. He killed a lot more confederates than he ever did indians. So its really, to me its sort of a superficial argument saying, oh he fought them. Yeah because that was his job. Whats he supposed to do . General sherman tells him to do something, i dont know, general summer sherman because if we lived in peace and harmny thatd be much better. Yeah, but you have the enemy and your order is to go fight them. So thats what he did. So what i would say is with respect to this issue, keep it in perspective. Bad things happen, no doubt. Bad things happen in every war. But custer wasnt some kind of crazy, genocidal killer. He was a soldier, and he did what he did. So he spent a lot of time on frontier, he spent several years in kentucky. Didnt fight a lot of battles. It wasnt like they were out there ranging around fighting all the time. It ebbed and flowed. Sometimes the 7th cavalry wasnt even involved. He went on the yellowstone expedition 1873, which was to charter a route for a railroad the northern pacific. There was some fighting there. He fought some of sitting bulls guys, a couple battles. He did a good job. He learned various lessons about the indians in those battles, things that probably informed him when he was fighting at little bighorn, probably informed him wrong. But he did understand some other things about them. Like by that time the indians were better armed than our guys because the cavalry had been facing budget cutbacks and had inferior weapons where the indians were buying off the black market and Getting Better weapons. So during the yellowstone expedition he realized that there was a problem. But really what started the chain of events that changed things was this, the 1874 black hills expedition in which custer led and which discovered gold. In black hills. Now, theres some argument over how much gold was found and whether it was enough to start a gold rush or things like that, whether custer was a cheerleader for the gold rush, whether he was in the pay of the railroads. There are a lot of theories about that. But the fact is the gold rush happened. And because of that the black hills were supposed to be off limits. It was supposed to be part of the great sioux reservation part of sacred ground for the indians, it was not going to be messed with. Well you cant keep out people who are pursuing gold during a gold rush, particularly when you have an economic downturn which was happening at the time. So there was the idea the government would buy the black hills from the indians . No, the indians werent entered in that. And interested in that. This the point where sitting bull said, you know what . Treaties are worthless with you guys. Youre breaking youre word, youre trying to get us to be complicit, were not staying on the reservation, were going out in the hinterland, were going to live the traditional way, and youre just going to have to deal with it. Thats really so that chain of events started rolling, and then thats what leads you to the battle of little bighorn because little bighorn happened after the interior Department Gave an ultimatum to the sioux and the cheyenne and others who were off the reservation to say if you dont get back were going to send out the army and they did. So thats how that happened. But before we get to there, you have to have the washington angle. See, everythings really about washington. Heres president grant. See, i think that custer had a little resentment for grant because custer its now ten years after the wars over. Hes still a Lieutenant Colonel. Hes still the Deputy Commander of the 7th cavalry which has gone through two colonels. There were opportunities for custer to be promoted. No, it went to older guys who were just, you know, going through their army career. Custer said, to heck with this. I want to be the commandant of cadet cans at west point which would cadets at west point which would have been awesome you know, the returning goat being the commandant of cadets the second ranking guy at west point, that would have been fantastic. No, he didnt get that. Grant didnt help him out, no one pulled the strings for him. And corruption in the Grant Administration in particular testifying against the secretary of war. You have a serving lieutenantcolonel on the hill giving testimony taking down we are so mad at him. He wasnt convicted. Secretary of war bellnap. Custer was obliquely implicating others in the Grant Administration including the president s brother. A sitting officer particularly someone he had worked with during lower war custer was a loose cannon but come john we will do that to the president of the United States . Chairman who at that point with the chief of staff he is helping custer out saying you got to shut up but i will work something out with grant. You are not going on the su expedition. You interrupted preparations for that in washington to jammy up you are off. This wasnt so good. Clustered tries to get meetings with grant to plead his case, grant wont see him. Sherman tells him sit tight we will work it out. Does custer sit tight . No. He leaves. He decides to go back to his command for a wrong move. In chicago he is arrested and told you are in big trouble. Finally through the intervention of sheridan and general cheri and others not to mention george literally beating on his knees for clemency he is finally allowed to go on the su expedition was two speculations. He would not be in command of it, he would just be in command of his regiment. Number 2, no reporters he cannot take a long and reporters to talk about how great you do. Custer. Those two stipulations office in is to get through, he did his own thing. He is George Custer, that is what he does. That is the political background to this but it put a chip on his shoulder that he has something to prove when he went to little big coin. When he went on the expedition he didnt know it was going to end up there. So when we get to little bighorn, we can talk a lot about this battle. It is maybe the most written about battle in American History this end gettysburg. There is a lot to say about it, very strong opinions on this battle. People dig into their positions on what happened. It overshadows all of his life. This is the defining moment for him even though he did all this stuff before and that made him famous that this becomes the thing. It is famous because of custer. Otherwise it would have just been a battle. But because he died there the immortal custer who could not be killed, this flamboyant famous guy fighting a battle against people who have no business winning battles, no one outside the indians could win a battle that big, it is inconceivable. How could it possibly have happened . There are a lot of reasons. It is so central to everything regarding of a story. Think about dont know how many of you have been there to the battlefield but they have markers where all of the bodies were found of men who fell, white markers where everybody was found. What other battle do you know of where that is that frozen in time where they have mark the location of all of the men on one side anyway died . Incredible. The myth that surrounds this battle. It is amazing and there are some markers they started putting up for native americans, where they think they might have been. When you look at the mistakes he made, it would take too long to hold that section of the battle but when custommade mistakes in this battle, for intelligence we call intelligence preparation of the battlefield meaning he didnt find out enough before hand he should have done more scouting but was trying to take them by surprise but he didnt. 84 estimation of morality is fighting capability, inferior weapons which i mentioned before, not really his fault but should have been aware of the firepower he was going into against his own firepower which was inferior. Dividing his forces, not properly coordinating them and he kind of lost track of where all his guys were and wound up isolated weighed down the hill. That was a problem. That was his biggest mistake, going so far down that ridge and if you know the battle comment at one point, some of his men or all of his men went down to the river, came back up but kept going further with they could be cut off and surrounded. That is really what killed him. Are we ok . So when it came time when he was isolated and couldnt recruit his men, because major reno one of his battalion girls, Proper Initiative and didnt like custer anyway. He didnt custer showed a little bit more initiative but not be enough and custers part of the command was wiped out. Here is the final order from custer saying come on quick, a big village, hard to read but that is the actual order at west point in the museum of there. He didnt come john quick, but it was a big village. You could debate. I am briefly summarizing what i think was the biggest mistake custommade. When you think of little bighorn and the tragedy the thing i like best about it, if you can say like about it, was sitting collapse account of how custer died. She was the last man standing of his command that was surrounded and shot down and fired the final shot from his revolver and laughed. The person who was interviewing sitting bull said he cried out . Like he wasnt speaking english . He laughed because he had fired his final shot. When they found his body, he was lying with a smile on his face. So custer made his own death. I think if he is going to go out any way in a blaze of glory, that was the way to do it. That cemented him finch in fame forever and it was also in the many times custer was reported dead, the first time it was true. So heres a statue of him that was directed at west point which later disappeared so if you are ever at a yard sale and use see Something Like that let me know. Everyone is looking for it. The base of the statue is currently over his grave but the top of the actual statute, libby didnt like it so after years of pastoring people she prevailed on west point to take it down. It is the last in the class, like i said, is missing, no one knows where it is. Must be hard to hide but it is somewhere. If i could sum up custer, he talked about the extreme unblemished hero or the idiot or all these things that i said about him, i dont believe any of them. He was never those types of extremes. He might have had some extremes but i dont think those are the ones. But what was he . He was a selfmade man. She has a very american story. He was a kid from ohio who went on and did all of these amazing things. And he achieved it through his own ability, maybe through luck. He was a brave man. No one can say that he wasnt. He would charge right into the teeth of enemy fire, whether he was a lieutenant, a captain or a general you would have the same amount, he would just move and go right into it. He never asked his men to do something he wouldnt do. He was a natural born warrior with an instinct for battle knew how to operate forces on the battlefields and he was a colorful eccentric which made him memorable. It is one of the reasons we are talking about him no doubt but i dont think it is the only reason. He got what he wanted, he craved adventure he craved admiration and renown and he got all of those things but one problem with custer is he got it too soon. The got it almost immediately in his life. 25, the peak of his fame and power and then it went away, he had to deal with all these problems and congress stagnation plodding along and didnt have kids lived a good life with libya and seemed happy but it wasnt what it was. He had that taste of it 25 at the nice edge of history making things happen that would be remembered for all time. He was there, part of it, shaping world events and then it was gone and never got it back. Maybe that feeling was what he was chasing down madison tale at little bighorn, that is what he was trying to find again. Maybe that is the real custer. In any case, coming out tonight, i will close with that and take any of your questions. [applause] make your questions brief and to the point so we get a couple of the man. Please remember we had going to the rotunda afterwards for a book signing and you have extensive conversations with him afterwards. I would be interested to know how you came to this subject matter . As a little childless something that developed later on . It evolve later on actually. When i was younger and studying military history i was mainly a world war ii buff because my dad served in world war ii and it was much more interesting to me than the civil war. The civil war came later when i was working for the marine corps as a professor at Marine Corps University we did all over the battlefield and so i had to get interested in it because it was my job but i really developed more of an interest in it at that time and this particular book grew out of the first book on the goat and the goats, we are on Little Round Top talking about guys who were last in their class because ticket was last in his class custer was glass in his class, henry keith, rebel general, fought at gettysburg, was last in his class. It seemed like a lot. Turned out there were six at gettysburg who were last in their class so i thought that would be an interesting article. [inaudible question] george patton, no doubt, george patton, similar west point experience. As i said a statue of him at west point, his back turned to the library for a reason and when you look at pattons early career starting in the expedition where he did some heroic things, people dont know the story of the young george and patton much more interesting than his later stuff. Pan and custer are similar guys. Theres this old saying that little bighorn, custer had coming which a lot attributes to they think the arrogance, you said good preparation for that battle, his tactical skills on the plains were only a third of a typical force on force. You think when he went out on the plains the field is doomed . Eventually because his missteps that this was going to happen sooner or later . Not necessarily. He could have survived little big horn right up until the end when he made his last move. When he put his battalions out of any realistic support, instead of going north he had gone south back of the way he came, instead of being four miles away he was two miles away