Up next, on booktv after words, the author discusses the personal finance industry and its dark side. His work was featured in the saturday evening post last month. Host i enjoyed your book quite a bit. Guest thank you very much. Host it was very easy to read. I was caught by the subtitle exposing the dark side of the personal finance industry. Which later in the book, you call it a personal finance industry complex, which includes not only investment banks and brokers and planners come but also the Financial Media, newswriter and publishers come and do even include yourself in that book. As a former columnist for the l. A. Times coming you include yourself as part of this and you point out, i think with some guild, you are responsible for giving people an illusion of control. Can you talk about that . What do you mean by illusion of control . Guest i am going to backtrack to personal personalfinance firmament. It is really a spinoff of the 1930s britain 1930s are known for everything from the hard Economic Times of the 1930s, you see everything from Alcoholics Anonymous developing in 1932 Napoleon Hill and various social activists business, fascism, communism, but they dont have a full appeal, and there is a spectrum of things going on. So the goal is to educate people about the Great Depression so that it doesnt happen again. It is very much away of its time, the idea that we can teach people certain skills, and if we learn these skills, we will all be okay. But what goes on over time in personalfinance, it slowly becomes saturday to a greater extent. It becomes less about the political backbone of its, which was always part of a good part of her career. She was a devout keynesian, for example. And it becomes simply a list of tips, like any other form of selfhelp. How to cook a perfect apricot stew, have to train your toddler. Follow these 10 steps, and all will be okay. And if you dont follow these 10 steps, it wont be okay. And therefore it, if you do follow these 10 steps, it has to have worked out. And if it doesnt work out, then you didnt follow these steps. Its on you. And that is over a period of years the that starts to happen. Host do you see the same parallel that i saw between the Financial Media and fashion media . If you dont look like this or just anorexic model, if you dont look like this couple that is making six figures a year, if you dont retire by age 40, there is something wrong with you . Yes, it is perfect in the way. Anna wintour and a win for a sitting up in her office and saying, im going to put this 5foot 6inch woman in this outfit. But there is a parallel to that. These Perfect People who have done things perfectly, not only have they done things perfectly, they have not experienced ill fortune they dont have the ability to save the right amount of money. They dont have and so on down the line. Most of us are not financial equivalents. Host that is true. You also mention that a generation or two ago, we had some of the same concerns that we have today. Two thirds of people 30 years ago had fixed pensions provided by their employers, and now two thirds of us at best have access to 401k plans. Employee sponsored other than employersponsored. Guest yes, i would like to go to one other thing first. The idea but this becomes so complicated. I was born in the mid1960s. Credit cards were less than 10 years old. A married woman had no access to credit cards. The idea that i would have access to it would be absurd. There were no adjustable rate mortgages. There were no retirement accounts. This whole structure that we take for granted simply did not exist. So we were expected, but the retirement becomes an issue. We are in the late 1970s. This is something related to social security, helping people save money per year. And then followed by the 401k, and if you want to talk about that, i can. Host yes, please. Guest okay, the 401k developed because there was a concern about executives who wanted to be able to get salary is taxdeferred, high earners, we are talking about. And he goes to congress and eventually there is this little code in the tax law in the 1970s called the 401k. Getting high and executives the right to put some of this aside on a taxdeferred basis. No one really thinks much of it except for one man. So this takes place by this times in the early 1980s. The next part, which almost nobody thought of was the idea that, wait a minute, we do not have to give people pensions, the weekly these 401k plans are a good substitute. This is where the corporate costs and trim cost cutters start creeping in. They say even if youre going to match it at 3 to and 6 , it is cheaper than funding a pension. And a lot of people wont sign up anyway. So dont worry about this. Slowly but surely, over a period of many years, the numbers are down to where we are to be. Host this is all happening while the stock market was reaching throughout the 80s and 90s, and people thought they were forever going to get these 25 returns a year. Guest thats right. They mightve got more oppositions except for an the stock market doubles again and doubles again. In the period between 1982 and depending on how youre counting with 2000 through 2007. This is the natural order of things. People expected these returns and we all have a bias towards this path that we all know. People see this as a guaranteed investment scheme. That is also things we see in other magazines and journalism pieces of the time. The 401k, i think someone actually wrote this, youre putting your money away and youre going to be fine. Host now people feel that they are going to retire destitute. Guest that is correct, many people think the 401k is a barrier. At the same time, we dont want to get rid of it, which is fascinating. One of the interesting things about social changes once it is complete, you forget about how it used to be. When i tell people a married woman had no rights to credit cards years before, jaws dropped. And that is the people that work in the finance industry. It was 40 years ago, maybe less than 40 years ago. The same thing is true of the retirement you divorce. We dont see any longer how it once was. The people who have pensions are slowly but surely dying off. One of the things that most intrigues me in the post2000 a period, was that we would think about getting pensions again and we do on pensions and people are saying now. That response has been to try to get the pensions away from the last people who had them, people like the auto workers unions, teachers, government workers, without saying that we want that, we are saying, lets take this. Host we have noticed personal finance industry complex allegedly seeking to help us with all this complexity. As you point out, that is dubious of that. We are talking about the fiduciary standard and how that term applies and why it is important and why you should know what it means before talking to any person. Guest about two thirds of us have no clue what this means. The fiduciary standard is the idea that somebody who is giving you Financial Advice is going to act in your best interest. The vast majority of people who call themselves advisors are really salesmen who have a duty to hear to a standard. Its the best womens way to describe it. Where i always like to describe it is to say that youre going to a store, you are buying a suit. If you go to the store where they are going to sell you this suit under the fiduciary standard, that suit would have to fit really well, the color would have to be flattering, if it needed adjustments, you would have to find a tailor easily and it cannot be very expensive, and it would have to be suitable for location that you were using it for. The suit under a store center could be kind of okay. Taylor could be across town and the most expensive one around. And it might just not be very flattering for you. Maybe it makes you look to hippieish or something. At the same time, and of course, most of us are quite aware of the fact of the standard and we just went. But when we go for Financial Products, many dont have a clue. Host when you look for a financial professional, usually you see an individual in regards to this. How do you see this fiduciary standard, looking out for the best interest, or nearly the suitability standard. And im going to get a lousy fitting suit or portfolio. Guest you have to ask. I dont tell anybody to look at certain things, unless the fiduciary is a pretty good size. Host personal, financial, and so forth. Guest and you still have to be careful. One of the things that goes on in this industry is that people dont have questions. They often get to their advisors not by doing diligent research, but if the guy at the country club or the nextdoor neighbor or someone who came and presented at my Childrens School or this facility, people are discouraged from asking questions. These people come at you and of course we do not tend to ask our friends hard questions. Are you asking him to act in my interest, how you doing . Host is there anything wrong with getting free dinners, a free state in exchange for sitting through this or do you advise against doing this . Guest apparently when i did an interview with reuters, i said the one thing i would do would be the free deal. The free mail seems so harmless. You dont have to buy anything. Some people will tell you this one and very well for you. The thing is these people can be very appealing. I will explain why. There is a whole apparatus to teach people how to be appealing. There are techniques were there told to write to people, usually people are written to. And it is a hot button issue. Social security, outliving your savings, protecting your money from your children. Things like that. And then you are going to spare them and make them afraid that this is going to happen. Of course, you dont say what this is all about. And then when you come into the presentation, and i have gone through several of these at the time, though i have to say that my presence is always scared because i am not old enough post that you dont look like youre over 65. Guest i look like someones angry daughter there to protect them. [laughter] but i try. Social security is going to be cut, your taxes are going to be raised. You have a two thirds chance of outliving your retirement. But they present their solution. It is a High Commission product, like a variable annuity or an indexed annuity. And all i can say there are some good ones, some not good ones. These are things that come with extremely high costs going on. And you cant get yourself out of them without severe difficulty. The stories of people being sold on these inappropriate investments, a google search, tons of the stuff, the one i rented was hysterical. The advice is given out after the presentation after the food. People are looking at you over clanging forks and they are not distracted. So i was sitting there waiting and waiting. And they kept saying that the kitchen is delayed. There is a whole theory of the kind of restaurant you should go to, and it should be a good restaurant. Its not blowing. Nobodys going to take you to that [inaudible] [laughter] host you mention the word commission. Talk about the Team Structure in that you mention as somewhat as. Guest thats right, the article are all too often part of the structure. But the way that it works is when you go to the financial advisors, they are one of three ways. Either pay by the hour, you can pay a percentage of the management, or you can pay a commission. Commission is, again, it is a percentage of the sale. The problem with the model is that people are given different commissions. There are incentives. Often the best Financial Product for people, lowcost mutual funds, they do not come with High Commissions. So as a result, what is exposed people is not exactly always a very great deal for them. But they dont know that. The reason they dont know that is because it is almost unheard of for someone to be working with a fiduciary standard. So they are not working with somebody who has their best interest and at heart. We have seen so many scandals over the years. The New York Times reported about this, about Jpmorgan Chase was selling people on very high mutual funds. Costing a fortune and so forth. You know, the banks see these people they dont see them as people needing to be helped. They see them as a revenue market. Host you dont often know the commission either. Guest that is right. There is no law but the stuff has to be presented in this way. So you have it presented to you, it is 20 pages in small type and singlespaced and most people over 65 are not reading out other reading glasses anyway. And who is reading it anyway . Are you reading at . Well, you might be, but you see what im saying. But nobody really does. So then depending on the survey, two thirds or 90 of us, they dont even know. It tells you that youre being charged a commission. Host since 2008 there has been a lot of talking about regulatory chance. This is one of the problems that happen. Guest people are seeing on their credit cards, if you pay the minimum, it will take you through your tenures or whatever. Instead of saying i should look about as an incentive. So you are saying now. I think you are seeing more people question the system. Unfortunately, that can be misleading people to pull out of the stock market altogether. We know the figures have the exception of six weeks last year. It might be a good response for people who are elderly and cannot afford to take chances anymore. But we know that that is not always the case. Host one of my favorite sections of the book is where you talk about the annual event, the money show, kind of like a carnival in orlando. Guest anyone who ever writes about finance should go at least once. Host i look forward to hearing this twoday seminar by this guru, burlesque, he tells the crowd you must never make a bad trade. Many say oliver, and he can you tell us about some of you losers, and i say no, i have none. I almost had a losing trade in 2010, but it was more of a break even. And then you have a sentence that i just love the way you say it is up to you, meaning the consumer to ask why if the tools and investments are so good, they are breaking a sweat trying to tell the stuff to you and me, and few people do ask these questions. Are we really as gullible as that . A lot of people are. Guest there is a lot of dust ration out there. People that are 55 years old and older. It is very unusual to see people under the age of 55 years. What i felt over and over again was many told me they were just sick of the crappy consulting gig and he figured he could do better than whoever is out there. Its not like the daytraders of the 1990s who really were just very greedy and trying to make a go of that. These are people who see that the brokers or whoever the advisors are going nowhere. Interest rates, savings accounts, bonds have been zero for years now with no end in sight. This is an incredible environment for people. Things like the money show are holding them down in this way. Now, they are doing Something Else that is very distracted, which as we all know in our 50s, we tend to be less doubting as we get older. On the plus side, older people report being happier with life than most of the rest of us. But on the other hand, it is one of the many reasons why they are a little bit more portable. Or some of them. The third part is a concerted effort with all of this. Really since the 1950s. It has gotten more extreme with each passing year. For instance, fortune magazine, and i always love how they pick this and that, and it is absolutely true, the government did not bail out enron. And cnbc gives legitimacy to this. And to a lot of people, most people are financially sloppy, no matter what they think. And the thing is these people are persuasive. Nobody is Walking Around saying dont trust anything im saying. And these people tell me that this is what they believe, they are going to try these products and see what happens. I have spoke to people. I spoke to one person and i talked to an individual and he said he took lessons from that. And you dont know what to say in certain cases. I am just imagining his children at home, pulling their hair out or something. Host stoploss order means the stock drops precipitously . That wont serve to protect him. Guest thats right, it was one thing if the money showed that you earned it crappy 2 , say in 2010 or 2011. We can get 30 a year. But you dont know what to say to certain point. Host you say that the House Flipping seminar are particularly disconcerting. What makes someone think that you can just let the house . Guest one of the things is when you deal with people like ramsey, a lot of these are building money slowly and cutting back would learn to deal with this. Dont go to the movies, etc. But a lot of these things, you can call a lot of these peoples gurus. This definitely needs more money. And we definitely do need more money. We do need more money. But instead of saying that you need to cut back, we are holding out a solution. And they are going to lead the way. Robert is not telling you to give up your daily trip to starbucks. He is trying to help you afford whatever kind of copy that you would like. That is part of the appeal. The other part of the appeal is this was sold to us. It is very easy to downplay that you should have known better. You buy a house you can afford, two or 3 . For instance in money magazine, there is a perfectly legitimate strategy. People were not doubting it. You have to go online and find things that people havent heard of to understand that maybe this wasnt such a good idea. On a daytoday basis, you are seeing reputable people promoting nostalgia. David boss how to deal with wells fargo. He was buying a house with no money down. And he actually identified the guy known for this, which was, i believe, video games and kids toys and i think the mother did some work with the girls. And that was, of course, you know, on top of everything else, these poor people have to move. They managed to keep the house. But this was being promoted as legitimate. We are not turning around and blaming people for it. Host the lane,. Host helaine olen, we are going to take a short break. May i suggest we get some coffee. And we will be right back. We were going to go make this thing a Viable Company again. We were all focused and we were going to design and build and sell the worlds best vehicles. We are going to move quickly and we need your support. We need your input. We changed a few things about the board meetings. We shorten them considerably. We stayed away and did not get in the weeds on how you build a car, but the bigger questions of financing, positioning, marketing, that sort of thing. We kept them informed and we just took off. Ed whitaker on an american turnaround on after words, part of booktv on cspan2. Look for more online. Like us on facebook. After words continues with helaine olen and her book on personal finance industry, pound foolish. Host helaine olen, we were talking about some Financial Products that were so bad that probably no one should be looking at them with variable annuities, Financial Products, it offers you a future income between now and then. And i have never met anybody who could read one of these contracts and really understand. Including me. They are long and sticky, and you are saying that you believe even the insurers themselves dont understand this. Guest one of the things is that for a time they were offering an amazing deal to some people. They were offering extra Percentage Points and earnings and etc. And people were laughing this stuff. And it turned out that the underlying models for some of them were not as the Insurance Companies expected. They begin to lose money on him. And they are now, some of them, trying to make offers to those who bought these variable annuities. Anywhere from a midpart mid part of the decade to a couple of years ago. So that is just everything you need to know about this. It is so complicated that they dont understand, how would you understand it. Host these were sold on huge commissions, right . Guest yes, and the cousins index annuities are sold on even higher commissions. When you look at the sales literature for it, it is extraordinary. People are promised cruises and in exotic locales. If they can just sell 500,000 or Million Dollars worth. It they are a hard sell, people dont understand them. They probably shouldnt in that case. A good rule of financial fun, if you dont understand it, dont get involved in it. Very basic. Host that is a very good rule. Guest i couldnt believe it. Host before the break we were talking about vulnerability. At one point you said you were sorely tempted to try one moneymaking way. And that was to take what mad money jim cramer says, im not sure if you were kidding or not. Guest if i didnt have small kids, i might have tried it out for a month or two. [laughter] we ran through various simulations and will be found out that if it was the smaller the company come the more likely it would work. It is a lot harder to have ibm and some company like a box company. Host demesne strategy that traders use, to make money off this topic is going to fall . Guest yes, thats right. In other words, things that are already going wrong. You know, he has a huge following. People really like him. He makes stocks look like a lot of fun. I watched the show and i have to turn it off in about 30 30 seconds. Host i often get the same feeling. Guest apparently this is quite entertaining. And he can make it seem very down to earth and fun. But the average person is not going to monitor the stocks the way that they need to. They are not going to do it. People have told me over and over again of investing and, of course, the stock loses money. But if you ask them, a lot of these people just think that they can hold onto the stock. That is what his specialty buds. So it is really not a great fit. But cnbc is making money promoting it. Host if you just type in jim cramer performance results into google, there have been numerous attempts at these results. So as you point out, we might go opposite the advice of dave ramsey order suzy orman matt. Guest for the past several years a lot of us feel like we have had been putting up sandbags. Do as i say, you will be fine. And even better, they are the ones selling you the umbrella and sandbags. Host could you be specific . Guest they set her up with a small mutual fund advisor. He was getting amazing results. One of the reasons he was is because he had a typographical error and had misstated some of the indexes. Its a lot easier to get Great Results when you do that. So she was doing not. Dave ramsey has told people to this day that they can expect 12 average return in the market. But to be fair, that is not a number that people have ever gotten on any consistent basis. The other thing that he said, which i find amazingly hurtful, he is urging people not to clarify things and this is an important point that we have to talk about. It exists for a reason. Nobody wants to declare bankruptcy. Despite what a lot of people think, the United States is not full of people who are putting up their credit cards and Bankruptcy Court. The United States will a lot of people who lived in a very uncertain society, who get stuck with huge Health Care Health care expenses, lose their jobs come their families fall apart and they run rampant. We have some evidence to show that people end up in Bankruptcy Court are often people that have regular corporate jobs. So when i actually looked at was putting out a request, hearing from people with success stories, never talk to people who say that they have taken back some of the data. In one case i talked to an Airline Pilot that was earning what he wouldve earned in 1991. His salary had been frozen for years. Most of his that came from an illtimed home renovation from before the salary was cut and then he and his wife try to better their position. Its started a small business. What happened to most Small Businesses happen to them. They ended up with even more debt. And i said why dont you declare bankruptcy, and he said he didnt want to. I could not believe that it would really help this person cannot declare bankruptcy. He was never going to get out of this. He was so concerned about damaging his prospects and the rest, but it wouldnt have been worth it. It. Host you point to the high level of bankruptcy. Consumers say that more than half of all bankruptcies are caused by rising medical costs. There are many reasons that americans are not saving that you talk about a number of other reasons. You say that the financial journalists out there are telling us that it is our fault, but its really not. Guest we all see people spending too much money. So we immediately assume this is what is going on. In fact, what is going on is the data between half and two thirds of people routinely who cannot say. They are living paycheck to paycheck. I refuse to believe that half up to two thirds of people are routinely line to the pollsters. I cannot believe that. When you look at this, she is the goddess, elizabeth warren, of these statistics. Our salaries stagnated and fell. None of men under the age of 45 do not earn what their god state. They do not earn what their fathers did. And education has quadrupled over the last few decades. Once, major cities as they still skyrocket, the cost of having children has increased. It fuels this entire post 2008 period. The things that people cannot do themselves out of have gone up considerably. The things that have declined somewhat, things identified as luxuries, it used to take over a week of work to buy a television set. Clothing used to be much more expensive. Thanks to the fact that it comes from third third world countries now, it is all very cheap. Our issue is the things you cant get away from. I did my own experiments with it, not deliberately. My husband and i decided we had to cut art expenses. That is it for the New York Times. We are going to cut it out, and so we canceled the New York Times. Our Health Insurance is then going up by 100 per month. And i am now 50 behind and then some. The final kicker was the New York Times turned around and said to stop that. And we are both writers. I read the New York Times. And that was the end of it. But that is the thing. There is only so much you can cut. Host i think you should offer more free steak dinners. Guest i know, i know. [laughter] the free dinners costume. Host you talk about women and playing up the story about being hopeless and helpless around money. And you take strong issue with that . Guest yes, i do. Ive done a study in my own house. There is the idea that women cannot manage finances because they are too emotional and nice. They are too instinctually nice about it. That one woman advisor actually said it is in regards to strategical and logical thinking. Which i thought was hilarious. We need people in the Financial Services industry. As it turns out, a basic economic fact, women have less money because they earn less than men, they live longer than men, and they have more responsibilities on that money than men. So there are three problems right there. A lot of this talk is not acknowledging this reality. Second, what the Financial Services industry does, as you probably dont know and certainly all of these women dont know, is that women are more likely to turn to the Financial Services industry. It is sort of the way that men never ask for directions, it sort of the same thing. You are more than likely to get a female client. So there is this idea that they can help women, but a lot of the advice when you start looking at it, because of this scolding, they have gone a bit more open and women do live longer and have these issues, and their responses that women should save more money. It was kind of like Ginger Rogers being expected to do everything. How do you save more money if you are earning less and you have more responsibilities . It does not make a lot of sense. I found this across the board. One of the things that disgust me was twentysomething women to learn about money, and it happens to be quite real. Sometimes the analogies are really quite fun and i sometimes enjoy reading it. So they put it together about what women and men say about money, and it was very funny. Except for the fact that it was all about shopping. And it did not mention once that one of the reasons that women were having problems with money is because the guy sitting at the next desk was earning more than they were. And i thought, how could they do that. Host i have seen studies that men are better investors than women. Could you give an example of how the personal finance industry is capitalizing on the stereotype . Guest they try to betray women as more riskaverse than men. The evidence that we have and some of this is portrayed as differences of who is earning my. It may come as a shock, the more likely they are to take the money. It is because they think they can earn it back if it goes wrong. Men do not tend to have that certainty. But instead of being told that that is what is going on come the financial industry says that has a great deal to do that. But one of the other things that i find quite interesting was that women tend to it ignore their ignorance more. If you look at the survey data, both know about their finances. But its not like men are here and women are there. Its more like women are here and men are about there. They tend to see as a result, somewhat less for people to financial fraud issues, which is really interesting. And because women understand how ignorant they are, actually said, well, what are you doing . Where men pretend they are confident in this area when they are not. They are not as likely to do this. It is very hard not to avoid the money show. The few women that i saw were almost always accompanying their husbands. Options trading, daytrading. Why would you want to encourage anybody to do this . [laughter] host you are talking about financial illiteracy. In the last several years, there has been a large part of this with Financial Literacy. You conclude that Financial Literacy classes dont work. You also strongly insinuate that there are motives at work with these classes. Can you talk about that . Guest Financial Literacy was my heart. One of the things that you mentioned was sales. And i mention classes and Financial Literacy. So then i started to research it for the book. The next thing i am looking at, i think, wait a second. People have been putting these in schools for 15 years, 20 years now. And nobody seems to know any more than we did beforehand. If you take a class in Financial Literacy, you are no more literate than those who didnt take a class in Financial Literacy. There are probably a lot of reasons. For starters, identify the french and indian war and tell us why it was so important to the american revolution. The idea that you would be able to take a class in high school and then 20 years later understand that an adjustablerate mortgage was not in your best interest. It is probably not the best strategy, but then Something Else starts to come up, who is offering these classes and what are they teaching. A lot of these classes are reported by the Financial Services industry. It is really what is behind this. It is out there for quite some time, and it really takes off with the star, which is really a bunch of corporate individuals were trying to promote the idea of fiscal responsibility. Also in the post2008 world. Well, people like bank of america and countrywide mortgage. Not exactly a financially literate understanding. You also see capital one that is notorious for going after lower income people, doing things like going after people who had to be charged in Bankruptcy Court. Still getting them to pay. Host are you suggesting an ulterior motive . Guest i think it would be easier to make products that people understood. Not to engage in bad financial that financial behavior. You do not have to give people credit cards with these classes. Why would you institute Financial Literacy . Clinical answer is well, there is theres a lot more money to be made by people who are financially literate than by changing the law so that these things cant happen. It looks good. And then there is one other tiny part that there is a Brand Awareness component here. And again, there are studies that show that they will be more likely to respond favorably to it decades into the future as a result. So there is a certain amount of getting your name out there. So many tools are done and sponsored by various banks. Their names arent glazed are glazed and bringing them home and letting the parents see this. Lets go to the first think of Financial Literacy exactly. Its whats in there. It is still going to be ablaze with in a mcdonalds at the top of the paper. Host what is the upshot . We cant avoid this, how do we keep our money out of the hands who want to get their hands on the money . First, the small answer is you have to ask questions constantly. The second answer is, as i put it at the end of the book, we need to Start Talking about this. There is a huge culture around us and our country. We all feel like we are supposed to retire as millionaires. We need to start sharing our stories and talking about this. We like to think it is the golden age of financial responsibility. But what we actually have is a lot of protection and a social safety net. All of that has slowly but surely been part of this. The social safety net isnt there, and that means government and family. And we start asking what are the next steps that we can take so that we can help people. You can sit here and say ask questions. The first, a lot of people are going to find ways around that. The level of complexity makes it hard to find a way around that. Host you heard the seminar of learning good habits. Guest thats right, preapproved, prepaid debit cards, credit cards. I cannot argue with people about that. It is getting kids used to the idea of having credit, even though it is technically credit. Its not a behavior, and this is the other thing. People sitting there with smartphones and whatnot telling other people about smart phones and saying that my children learn Financial Literacy from a class. They would probably learned in the home a lot faster. Its a model of good behavior. Host we only have a few minutes left. Where are you going to go from here . Is there something that you want to get into the you didnt have the room or time to cover in this book . Can you reveal what needs to be revealed . Guest i am not sure. I dont know. What the Financial Services industry is doing right now is leaving aside the judiciary for second. Everybody is trying to recruit people that have well. There are people who want to talk about this. It is all about how to get the five up to 10 milliondollar credit. There are people in the Financial Services industry. It is really something that needs help. They are just not getting us. Host helaine olen, thank you for writing this book. We appreciate it very much. Guest thank you, goodbye. We continue with a look at our financial industry discuss it the financial industry discussion. This is a risk to agriculture and were beginning to see the implications of that risk because weve had crops grow my student could not be harvested because there simply werent enough hands to pick them. It is important and necessary that we have immigration reform, that we create a system in this country that understands and appreciates the importance of immigrant labor and respects that, that creates a comprehensive set of reforms that secures our border, that creates responsibilities on those here legally to pay a fine, pay back taxes, learn the language and created an opportunity for these folks to be here legitimately so they can provide the labor of work necessary for our producers so we in this country can cnu