Religious Freedom Center this is just over an hour and a half. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. A good meal. I will take a nap to 3 30. I am excited about this afternoon. More so about this afternoon because this is my area of focus. But you know, we have scholars here. We have real scholars. Isnt that interesting . They are muslim. Amazing. I thank god for the opportunity. Just for me being here. Housekeeping notes, you will have some q a cards on the table and we ask as we move along through the panel that you pose your question and write a sentence, not a paragraph but a sentence. The card will be collected. Hand it to me. I will then read the question on the statement and referred to the panelists. Does that work . Okay. I have been in the criminal justice business for 47 years, spent most of my time in corrections. My first introduction to islam was a case called forward versus clemmer. How many of you know about this case . Had to do with the former Police Chiefs brother who was incarcerated. The issue was the right to practice his religion which was islam. The Supreme Court as i indicated earlier ruled in his favor and in the balls started to roll. It has been my experience that muslims who are in prison have been historically the most disciplined, motivated and keepers of the piece. Not only that but they have always been at the forefront of prison and jail reform inside jails and prisons and outside jails and prisons. I think there has been such a lack of information about what goes on that people have a false notion that they are at war inside the prisons. That is an untruth. Muslims were the most progressive inmates that i ever worked with. I have always been honored and proud to work with them. That population is normally traumatized, undereducated, uneducated, angry, looking for a cause. As a result, that cause, prisons become like territory. For recruiters for terrorist activities. Just think about that. To really happen. I really report the other day that corrections director had written, i wont call the system but he talked about how they were having meetings, okay . With a disruptive element in the Muslim Community. Those who were involved were not being disruptive. They were educating the total population about what islam was all about. They are really peaceloving people but we have listened and read all of this unfortunate information that comes out of certain houses. Were really considering taking all this stuff on the road to show the country whats really going on with the muslim family. I guess im the only nonmuslim up here, huh . [laughter] and i feel so comfortable. [laughter] i really do. But gods good. So having said all of that from my notes as karim did earlier, i want to stay on target and on time. We have dr. Abdul baker, dr. Baker, thats my english friend from london, okay . [laughter] dr. Ken ingram the second who says hes not there yet with the doctoral. You got it now, honorary. [laughter] and then my good friend joe from houston, texas, all right . And i told him, they dont dress like that in texas, man. [laughter] you got the wrong stuff on, joe. Wear your boots. [laughter] your hat. But on a serious note, i ask that you tune in, listen and become educated. Become educated. So having said that, dr. Baker dr. Baker believe ill be starting . Ill volunteer joe. You volunteer joe . He volunteered me a lot in the last one [laughter] joe, majority rules. All right. Well, first of all, id like to thank all of you for attending today and to thank the organizers, to thank the tam group for putting this together and to thank the museum for hosting the event. And, of course, thank my good friend here, mr. Ridley, for what do we call it . Beats me. Proctoring [laughter] thats the english term. Hang it around him. Moderator. Moderating, yes. Youve been americanized. Yes. So what i wanted to talk to you today today were supposed to be talking about radicalization in the prison system, or the prison system is it a hotbed for radicalization or for reform. What is the role that islam can play in preventing radicalization and reforming people that may be incarcerated or may be prone to recidivism or along those lines. What i would like to speak to you today about are three main issues. Number one is how legitimate is the charge that radicalization is rampant in the u. S. Prison system. Number two, what challenges does government involvement pose to the process of deradicalization. And number three, how can muslim beliefs become an effective tool for change and positive reform of prisoners and prisons . Now, when were talking and discussing about the issue of prison radicalization, its very important, first, to challenge the notion of its existence. And im asking as a nonspecialist in that area, i dont have the Empirical Data, but is there sufficient Empirical Data that is being provided by those who are making claims that radicalization is happening at a rampant rate in the u. S. Prison system. As dr. Ridley said, yes, there is susceptibility, but is it actually happening. Thats a question we have to ask, and we cannot just answer in the affirmative based upon biases that we carry about people who are incarcerated, about muslims or the nature of islam or any other minority faith group in the United States. To further claim like this is to malign a community and is not only bad character, but its bad policy. It also cannot go without saying that assumptions about radicalization play heavily into prevailing prejudices in the american psyche. Whether those be racebased prejudices as members of an ethnicity being predisposed to criminal intent and action or religionbased prejudice functioning the same way. Many times these two prejudices are intertwined. Islam is seen as the reason for extremism amongst many minority groups, and minority groups are seen as sympathetic to what is labeledded as extremism in the minds of majoritarian members of society. In essence, this line of thought i. E. , racebased or religionbased prejudice attempts to pin the causes of extremism and radicalization on something outside of and foreign to the american cultural psyche. Namely seen as judeochristian, civilized and of european background. The racializedded tones of many of the discussions on this issue lend credence to this. However, my comments here today will not focus on the Empirical Data, and instead for had that been the case, i would be speaking to you not in my role as a member of the american Muslim Community, nor in my role as a thought leader in that community, but instead as a member of one demographic that data have shown is most predisposed to violent extremism and home grown terror, namely middleaged White American males. What do i want what i do want to talk to to you today about and what my comments will focus on are the challenges of those who have to straddle what seem to be competing value systems. The values of freedom of religion, speech and expression, the value of reasonable accommodation for those who are incarcerated. On one side we have these values, on the other side we have religious affiliations and ideologies and beliefs that may be opposed or seem to be opposed at times to the systems that seek to protect it. And let me give you an example. If i as an american and this is not my belief, but if i were to say that i believe it is wrong for any american to have access to a firearm regard he is of what type it is, i believe that all firearms should be banned, this is a belief which goes against a core constitutionallyprotected right. However, my adopting this belief does not forfeit my right to be protected by all of those other Constitutional Rights that are afforded to me. My, the question then becomes is protecting beliefs and values that are not normative or not popular, if we do so, are we in some sense going against our own values in favor of another value system . Those who we see as conservative or extreme, when we protect their rights to hold those beliefs and to practice those beliefs within the confines of american law, does that mean we are enabling illicit practices or endangering the American Public . Additionally, is it appropriate for us to label those we see as conservative, austere or beyond our own scope of practice as something which is extreme or veers off towards the path of radicalization. When such labeling becomes a matter of policy, this is where the problem grows. So theres an obvious danger from the government exceeding its boundaries and going beyond mere religious accommodation to religious dictation, dictating to any individual or any group the belief and or beliefs and practices that are considered legitimate or a legitimate form of that faith. If viewed solely through lens of National Security, it would seem to make sense to challenge the ideas that lead to radicalization, and i think we can agree that those do not to be challenged. But when the assumption is radicalization, especially when the assumption is radicalization effectively counters terrorism and protects the American Public. So why shouldnt government officials try to marginalize what they view as theology cited by violent extremists, one that poses a danger not only to individuals, but to society at large . The problem is that when governments attempt to dictate to anyone their religious beliefs, they create a myriad of legal and strategyingic tensions. Strategic tensions. For the practitioner of that religion that is targeted by that government, this governmentsponsored religion appears to be a faith which is foreign to their own and one that they do not recognize. And in the context of the broader Muslim Community, it appears that the government is playing favorites and rereading their religion through National Security contexts, dictating to them what is and is not acceptabling. This would contravene the basic rights enshrine in the constitution that everyone, regardless of faith, expects to be afforded to them under the law. And this is exacerbated when the target populations that make up the majority of muslim communities come from backgrounds where the expectation from government is that they intervene to the detriment of the individual. Whether it be the historical memories of programs or the security apparatuses of foreign governments persecuting even the most basic performance of faith such as prayer in the mosque has happens in many muslimmajority countries, u. S. Government programs that seek to dictate to muslims what their beliefs are or should be will naturally cause mistrust and inadvertently push people away and towards radicalism, not away from it. Even indirect influence into the communitys thought process can be seen as suspect and many times is. Programs that seek to coop leadership in the Muslim Community such as prevent or cve for the purpose of combating radicalization will often times have the opposite effect. When the individuals that represent religious authority in the community are seen as puppets or compromised, then we cannot expect those who would lean towards radical beliefs to confide in them and to reform their ideas. We certainly cant expect them to stay away as they will consistently try to mend the rift created from what they see as a compromised religious ideal. And by expecting a breach of confidentiality from pastors, imams, chaplains and those who work in religious functions in muslim communities, we compromise the effectiveness of religious authority to be a positive, a positive force in deradicalization. The solution, in my humble opinion, lies in not just creating institutions and initiatives that are grounded in faith, socially relevant and legally viable, but in reevaluating what it means to have religious leadership. Who really is an imam . Who really is a chaplain . What authority do they have, and who speaks for islam . What sort of faith do we have many our text and what sort of trust do we have in those we trust to interpret it . If we cant answer this question as a Muslim Community and instead allow ourselves to intercept it, then how our our 3er7b8 interpretations or the interpretations of a government more authoritative or valid than those of others . Say, radicals . Here i feel its important to mention as well that muslim communities themselves cannot only denounce radical beliefs, but they must see themselves as partners and be seen as partners by organizations and government authorities that want to work with them to combat the coopting of their beliefs for any purpose whether that be for National Security assumptions or to promote extreme acts that will damage society. As a whole, at home or abroad. So the question then is how can muslim beliefs be used for positive change and reform of people prone who radicalization . With regards to the National Security interests, government policies, the policies of correctional institutions, what is needed is an open door policy for religiouslyaffiliated of qualified individuals to be able to counsel, teach and advise incarcerated individuals that may be susceptible to radicalization. With regards to chaplains and those working in the rehabilitation of prisoners, its absolutely imperative that a theology of personal choice and a theology of personal responsibility be inculcated in them and all those that are under their supervision. Speaking from a muslim theological perspective, this means that the basic beliefs of islam are taught to those individuals in a fashion that does not play into the tropes of anyone, radicallist or extreme group. Chaplains and other individuals as well as lay people themselves may subscribe to a more conservative or liberal point of view about their own faith. But we have to recognize that it is not one individual perspective of religion whether that be islam or any other religion that is susceptible to being coopted by radicals or extremists. Indeed, weve seen in the past two years how versions of sunni islam, of shia islam and even of sufi islam in the events that occurred in turkey have shown us that regardless of religious orientation, each of these groups may be, may be coopted for political purposes. One of the hallmarks of radicallist belief is their tendency to engage in group think, negating from the individual their personal autonomy and their ability to make their own decisions. And instead, demanding from them dogmatic, rote application of the groups ideals. Its imperative for any chaplain or teacher of those susceptible to radicalization to present the general precepts of islam and how, first and foremost, every individual believer be held accountable for their actions and their beliefs. And several verses of the quran this idea of personal responsibility is reiterated. Every soul shall be accountable for what it earns, says one verse. And another, no soul shall bear the burden of another. And yet another, every soul shall be concerned with itself on the day of judgment. In one prophetic tradition, a man came out of the desert and asked the Prophet Muhammad if he only prayed his prayers and fasted his fast would he enter the paradie, and the prophet said emphatically yes. When he left the prophet said to friends, if he is true to his word, he will, indeed, enter paradice. The believer is the one who the people are secure from, and the immigrant or the emigrant is the one who migrated away from sinfulness. In another tradition he says whoever kills a person whom they are in covenant with they have a social contract with then they will not smell the scent of paradise even though its scent can be smelled from a distance of 70 autumns. A bit offal gory there in the words used. Offal gory there. So points of consensus in early muslim scholarship is important as a well so that those who are susceptible to radicalization can see that the ideas of being civic or having civic duty and personal responsibility have primacy not only in islamic text, but have been upheld as ideals from the earliest muslim generations. The key here is inculcating in people the ability to make informed religious choices. And that their religiouslymotivated practices be made consciously by themselves. Those who are susceptible to the nuances and must be taught that the ultimate responsibility of each and every one of them falls upon themselves to insure both their personal and public safety. Teaching the muslim individual, whether incarcerated or not, that they have a civic duty towards their fellow man and a personal responsibility in front of god to fulfill that duty is paramount. It will only be through the teaching of islamic beliefs in the broadest sent that will create a sense of identity in the religiouslypracticing individual that they will be protected from possible radicalization. What this does is it creates in the mind of the practicing believer that their personal, private practice does not and should not dictate the minimums of public religiousity. So while i as an individual may be more conservative or more austere in my approach and practice of religion, i am not expected nor should i force that upon the public. In fact, what im expected to do as a religious practitioner is to guarantee for the public their personal safety from myself and from anyone who would want to do them harm. So by encouraging those susceptible to take personal responsibility for their actions and pairing those actions with being held accountable by god himself without any help or assistance from those close to them along with prophetic traditions that we mentioned, those working in the service and education of incarcerated individuals can be the preventive cure the any lapses in to any lapses in judgment and possible engagement with radicalized groups. And to sum up, charges that radicalization is a problem and specifically charges that radicalization to islamic extremism is a problem need to be substantiated with hard numbers so theyre not used as a tool for propaganda seeking to marginalize muslims both in and outside of prisons. When government officials tend to dictate religious beliefs, they effectively contravene both American Values and jeopardize and or reverse the desired effects of deradicalization. And this pitfall can be avoided by governmental agencies partnering with muslims with the requisite expertise necessary for positive change and reform of prisoners and those that are inclined to radicalization. Muslim chaplains, imams, experts and Community Leaders can affect positive change through encouraging theologicallygrounded concepts of personal responsibility, civic duty and accountability to god, routeing this in historical memory and enabling this rooting in historical memory and enabling motivated practices. Thank you very much, thats all i have to say. [applause] thank you, joe. Thank you very much. One of the resounding themes that weve heard from this morning and, of course, were continuing now is education. Education. We need to focus on the politicians. Government leaders, Community Leaders, the whole family as to what this is really all about. And now we will hear from dr. Ingram. [speaking in native tongue] in the name of allah, the all merciful, the bestower of mercy. The world of incarceration, it is an interesting one. We have people in our societies that commit crimes. And then when we believe that we have the right person, we then put them away in our prison system. Hopefully, we got the right person. What is consistent though is that these people, that this population of people that they are stored away for years on end. And what we dont always consider at that time is that this population of people, they will become returning citizens. They will be coming back into society. So at the point that we realize that, it raises two questions. One question is how will this person be when they come back into society. And for all these years that we stored them away, secondly, what was their developmental process throughout that period of time that they were away . So when you think about this, if a person is successful when they come back into society, a lot of that does have to do with the support that they receive when they come back out to society. But a larger part of that has to do with how they were being cultivated while they were being incarcerated. So we return back to this point so we can discuss this a little bit further. When you look at the prison system from a theological basis and the inmate populations that are within the prison systems, you find interesting things. You learn a lot. Things you didnt know existed that people take as a faith. Things such as odonism, temple of the black messiah, you learn about the wick can faith group and native American Heritage and spirituality. You learn things. But amongst everyones who is present everyone who is present, the largest population is the peoples who ascribe to the christian faith. Thats the largest population. Second to them which is pretty consistent after that would be muslims. Now, in this state we currently have about, well, upwards of 20,000 people that are incarcerated. Fast approaching 30,000. Now, whats interesting with this and i need you all to walk with me a little bit whats interesting with this is that the world of incarceration is not the real world. And the rules the function when one is incarcerated are not necessarily the rules that you and i are operating by. Its in many ways a very survivallistic atmosphere at times. And we place people in this environment, and its also a very authoritative environment and a lot of control is taken away from these peoples who are incarcerated. So you kind of stew all that in a pot, and you have people that become very susceptible to being antigovernment, antiestablishment, antiauthority. With this, we should mention a brief story. About ten years ago, id had a discussion i had a discussion with an agent of the federal bureau of investigations in my home. And we had a bit of a debate in our discussion. And what he had posited, the theory that they were operating with at that time, was that a person who is incarcerated and is africanamerican and is muslim, and then further, ascribes to what someone describes as [inaudible] equates to terrorism. Home grown terrorism. So we had that discussion, we had that debate. I believe i won that debate. But we need to say this on the ground, realtime in the prison system, you do not commonly find people who ascribe to radicalized islam ideologies, if were going to utilize that term the. You dont find people who they ascribe themselves to isis, lets say, right . Or, as dr. Baker mentioned earlier you dont find that. Thats not really there in that type of a way. So its not the prison system is not producing terrorists. In that way. Is there radicalization, is there extremism . Yes, that exists. That is part and parcel of the nature of what the prison system breeds. Because it is a very survivallistic type of atmospheres, a very base nature type of atmosphere, this is a tendency for the peoples who are being held there to see things in terms of black and white. Sometimes you might get gray. But you wont get a Broad Spectrum of color in their thinking and Decision Making process. Now, there is Something Else that we want to add to this pot thats being stewed. And its the direction of the prison system at current. If you go back far enough, you go back into the late 1800s, throughout the 1920s and beyond that, the focus was on penalization. Its punishment. Right . At a point, at a point it wasnt even lawful for them to speak to each other. Even when they were working, they couldnt talk to each other. Move forward a little bit into the 60s, it became rehabilitative. Now, that stretched out until about the 80s or so. But with the war on drugs and things of that nature, that shifted. So its not so much focused on rehabilitation anymore. We think it is. We, we do enough to make ourselves feel like maybe theres rehabilitation going on there. And there are some programs that are, that are present, but many of the programs are either not relevant or not updated, not properly funded. Why would we put money into these people who are harming us and doing a disservice to our society . So all of that when they come out, you may have a problem. They may not be able to integrate properly back into society. Now, along with this to add to the point about not really finding peoples who ascribe to terrorist groups and things like that in prison as a norm . Prisons are pretty much like a quarantine. From the perspective of the inmate whos being held, theyre operating almost 20 years in the past. Right . We have monitors, screens and things of this nature, right . So when they are in their circles and theyre learning not always, but its not uncommon that theyre still using chalk on boards, and theyre using paper. And you have people that probably dont even know how to utilize a computer, right . Connecting that to the point of dr. White and dr. Baker where much of the extremism is coming by way of the internet and online. They dont have access to that. Its a quarantine. So from this perspective, it is a safe environment to a degree of foreign ideas entering into it because its quarantined. But because of the nature of the prison system, they are very susceptible to extremist ideas and behavior. Now, we do have peoples, as dr. Bakers mentioned, that are now being incarcerated into our systems who do ascribe to such ideologies. Now theyre coming in. So you connect these people with those people, and it is very feasible that without the proper development, without the proper programs, without the proper access they can be easily convinced that these people, these institutions, the government that has put these institutions into place that has you here for so long and your life has been taken away, see, theres a problem. Theres a problem. And this is our solution for that problem. Now, this affects both peoples who are muslim and nonmuslim in the prison system. Ill tell you why. Throughout the prison system, islam is the second largest faith, but its fastly growing, and many people are embracing the faith of islam throughout the prison system nationally. So if they are influenced in this fashion and islam continues to spread, well, then these extremist ideologies may also spread along with that throughout the prison system. So what im saying is we have, we have opportunity. We have opportunity now to get on the forefront of this, to get ahead of it by getting into these prison systems, reaching the inmate population, bringing them uptodate and properly educating them and properly developing them concerning extremism and concerning misinterpretations of islam. So that they can be properly equipped to understand what is going on and to deflect any doubtful matter that a may be presented to them. The if we do not if we do not, then as months and years come and they come back into society, then we may actually have realtime homebred terrorists. So these are the thoughts that i have to offer as a premise at least to open a discussion realtime whats going on on the ground and just to open up our mind and get us thinking a little bit. So with that, we turn the floor back over. Thank you. [applause] again, i know you all have eaten [laughter] its early afternoon. Lets stir up the pot a little bit. As we think about corrections, corrections is governed by Public Policy. Public policy leads to revenue, money. As i heard dr. Ingram speak, hes talking about improving conditions in corrections from a humane standpoint, a humanistic standpoint. And thats something we typically miss. Along with in that continued thread of educating people as to what islam is really all about. There is and should be an effort to educate correction alleyeders. Correctional leaders. Because they set the policy. They need to know and understand who theyre setting policy for. They dont have a clue. Right today there are only three persons of color who run adult correctional systems in america. Really . Three. Now, what does that speak to . If we control legislative, okay . Folks, congress and all of that, you see a whole different okay . Operation. But Public Policy drives this stuff. It drives it. City councilmen, local legislators, governors. They control this. So as dr. Ingram was speaking, conditions are poor. And as a result of that, people are angrier. Theyre already angry. But you put them in these horrible conditions, and they become angrier. So they become vulnerable. Whoever makes it sound good, thats where theyre going to go. Okay . Now, we come to the honorable, the wonderful, the blessed dr. Baker. Thank you. I want to revisit some of the framework that weve looked at before. Its necessary to do that. I think following on from joe and dr. Ingramtobe [laughter] their lectures, one of the important things that the agencies need to do, youve seen this particular framework again ive used, we need to identify and understand the stages of development of the inmates as they are going into these institutions. Why . Because its likely and my colleagues can confirm, that theyre going to replicate at the microcosmic level the very communities they come from. We see it with the gangs. The gangs gravitate towards their colleagues within the gangs, and their particular codes and ethics they adhere to. Similarly, i know from a british context and more than likely from a u. S. Context, when they go into prison, they gravitate towards those of likeminded ideology, culture and background. Those that dont, theyre coming into an arena of uncertainty, with it nonmuslims who convert or muslims who come from a generality of communities. The wider more superfluous were looking at as muslims. So theyre very, very vulnerable and susceptible. I wrote an article that was produced in english and released in turkish last month, the institutionalization of islam. And what youve been hearing from joe and dr. Ingram here are concerns around that. Because if statutory institutions have a perfection of muslims coming in, theyre going to gravitate or place them in categories that they are comfortable with. This is potentially disastrous. So understanding the inmate thats coming in, not just their dietary needs, not just the clothes theyre wearing, but understanding their religious direction, their religious underpinning, do they come from any of these communities . Remember, these are not just the four communities weve mentioned before. You can look, produce this framework for the sufi community, the Shia Community and the dichotomies that are existing within those. Once youve identified that, you then need to ask yourself is that also taking place outside and inside . There was mention of how they when theyre released, how they come out of prison. Are they still within the same community they were in before . By virtue of their prison release, do they have to relocate . What are the factors surrounding this particular individual . Have we quippedded them . I know in the u. K. , for example, many individuals who were released from prison ended back in prison because they could not cope with what they faced outside. Yet they were told go back into your community and familiarize yourself thats where the crime, thats where the extremism, the radicalization was or they moved them to different environments, and they couldnt cope or adjust there because it was an alien environment for them. This was the framework that i developed during my ph. D. Studies, and i adapted that from an altogether different field of research, management. The life cycle of organizations. And be i took that and adopted it to see if i could test that regarding converts and muslims who were returning to islam. And youll see there are four stages there. The founding stage. The founding stage is a very new, developing sustaining for an individual stage for an individual. Theyre very susceptible, very vulnerable at that stage because they lack knowledge. What they have is religious vigor. What they have is emotion. Theyre learning, and their knowledge is garnered from abstract understandings. They havent experienced what theyre learning. They then move to the overzealous stage of the youthful town indication. And if you look at foundation. And if you look at many of those who have gone to syria, iraq, the richard reid, the shoe bombers and you listen to their references this court, youll see its overzealousness. Youll see misplaced understanding of the religion as was mentioned earlier on. And these are highly politicized, vulnerable stages. When inmates are coming into prison, do we even know what stage theyre at when they come in . Do we know these stages . If we capture them and i dont mean literally chains capture them, im talking about when they come in with their mental states, with their religious state conditions if we are able to engage with them and provide a discernible context of learning, then were start anything the right direction. But this is not just for the muslim chaplains,s this is for the institutions themselves. So again, we go back to what was mentioned earlier. If there is this partnership, these discussions can take place. The muslim experts can come in and take time to establish, to determining determine where these muslims are. And we want to move them, like ourselves, to the safer stages, the adult phase, the mature phase where reflection takes place, where actualization takes place. What is actualizationsome they are now practicing their religion and tenets of their faith from practice, from understanding, from experience. Not from abstract dvds, youtube, listening to a context that is altogether different because its coming from a different part of the world be it asia, the middle east or africa. Theyre able to contextualize. But we need to Work Together institutionally to move them in that direction and not place them into categories that suit our system so we can tick the right boxes. The last figure that you saw, the last framework you saw was quite a basic, rudimentary framework. There are some converts here, i understand, who that resonates with. The more detailed one, the following here, was a sort of adaptation. And the reason i developed this is because you have an issue. Weve talked about susceptible, vulnerable inmates. Weve heard that from my two colleagues. What about extremist protagonists . And lets focus now, and you might say, well, why do we need to look at a framework for them . When i was studying, i did a case study of faisal, i couldnt fit him into the previous slide. I couldnt say he was at the founding stage. It was too the descriptors were too basic. I wouldnt say he was at the adult or mature phase either because of the nature of his propaganda. That doesnt mean the extremists do not reach that, but i couldnt fit him into that category, so i was thinking when i do sit with my brothers, theyre going to professors, theyre going to say your ph. D. s incomplete, you need to come to a conclusion. So i searched and searched. I was able to develop what you see at the bottom there with regards to abstract understandings to actualizing. And i was then able to place individuals like faisal at the youthful phase. Why . Because he was providing information which he had not fully embraced himself. He provided information, and he was disseminating it with his own understanding and misinterpretation of the religion. He has an element of actualization, however, because he went and studied in a muslim country. But his actualization was distorted. And i talk about the propagators as well as they enter the institutions. Why . And i will give you we said we were going to spice it up a little bit, and ill give you an example. An individual was in prison in the u. K. , and they placed him beside one of these propagators of extremism while he was in there. Upon just before that individual was to be released, i was abroad, and i received a phone call from the police. I thought, what are they doing ringing me here . They told me we have got intelligence that this individual is going to be released very shortly, and he has been discussing the assassination of two individuals when he leaves. One is an imam and the other is somebody else who was at the other end of the telephone call. When i got that phone call, i was surprised, and i wonderedded how that could have taken wonderedded how that could have taken place and with them knowing how they had an ability to know this individual was going to be released and coming into the community then knowing the level of the threat. They couldnt and wouldnt do anything about it. They just didnt have the mechanism if any be help was needed, such and such would happen. Colleagues put in mechanisms of support around the imam, and when the individual came out because some of them knew him, they engaged with him. I want to move to a different stage now to show you about what is required when engaging with extremists and their followers and their foot soldiers. And there are very few communities that show the wherewithal or bravery im not saying im brave, but courage to deal with this. What did we do . We let the individual come back into our community. The individual took part in my program, the street program. I deliberately engaged with this individual and spent time with him. Privately. Obviously, aware of what had come to me from intelligence. And this is another thing id say to partners, your intelligence has to be accurate. It has to be accurate. Because if we respond to what is given to us in every instance, we can perpetuate, we can exacerbate the problem. So as a Muslim Community, we relied upon our own intelligence among our colleagues, those who were still in prison, those who were out of prison who gave some feedback which enabled that engagement to take place. Another individual came to this individual later on, and i got him working voluntarily in my organization. And he told him, do you know this information had come to us, and do you know that we had such and such and such . The individual contacted me on phone in tears. He said i will never harm you. I will never harm you. Be had that been the intention from the beginning, allah knows best. But due to the engagement, the motto of my organization is for you from people like you. If we fit individuals into these boxes and these categories, muslims or nonmuslims, we give them no room for development. We stereotype them. Weve seen this happen with black communities, minority communities. Not just here, in the u. K. And elsewhere. When we put hem into neat little boxes because we can deal with those boxes, theres no room for progress for those individuals. And many of hose individuals will say of those individuals will say, well, be this is the category youre putting me in, ill act the fool and play that part. And theyll do that very well. So understanding these stages of development is essential for institutions at an institutional level are in order to address some of the issues that ive addressed and what youve heard here from my colleagues. And ill conclude this. Theres a description of those levels that are there, and youve got time to read them, please do take time to have a look at them on how the most rudimentary understanding needs to progress to a level of wisdom where individuality, where responsibility, as joe has mentioned, is taken on by the individual. They take responsibility for their own actions. They process things from a process of knowledge if they have access to that knowledge. They process it within an environment where theyre entitled or provided with the amenities, with the utensils to do that very thing. So we dont move them. We talk about group think, and is we know thats a problem. Cultism, we know thats a problem. But if were reinforcing it because were not enabling them to act as individuals, to process things themself and ill conclude on this point which is very, very key which will go into the next topic because someone finds a sense of religiousity, many go into prison and become more practicing of whatever faith it is. The man might start growing his beard. He might start praying five times a day. But we start becoming worried as intelligence or security operators saying this vims moving towards extremism individuals moving towards extremism. Weve got to differentiate between ideological extremism and behavioral extremism. Behavioral extremism is subjective. In saudi arabia, its not seen as extreme. Its subjective. We cannot determine extremism based on outward appearance and particular modes of behavior. However, if we establish there is an ideological line of extremism, ive mentioned earlier on guided an aspect of unification of allahs names in worship, they divided that into a fourth category. The muslim world has divided it into three. They made a fourth category and politicized it. [speaking in native tongue] when we hear individuals espousing that because thats talking about governments now, the governments in the middle east need to be overthrown. Then, for them, it was the near enemy. Alqaeda then changed it to say we need to go to the far enemy, the west. We hear these types of beliefs, if we hear these types of beliefs being espoused that we can rob sill in the name of islam and kill nonmuslims, then you know that is ideological extremism. And aspects of the behavior are analogous to that. But behavior by itself . Institutions need to be very careful when they see an increase in religiousity, and they take that as indications and symbolism of extremism. This is very dangerous. And this tends to be happening in the u. K. Prisons. Im not sure if its happening in the u. S. Prisons. But we need to differentiate between those two, and ill conclude on that point. Thank you. Thank you. [applause] q a. Ooh, we got some wonderful the only issue, joe, is reading them. [laughter] they write like you. I specialize in manuscript reading. You might have to do this. Often penal systems jails are described as Networking Opportunities for people of likeminded ideology to make corrections. How true is this . And how to prevent it . If true . I say again please. Often penal systems jails are described as Networking Opportunities for people of likeminded ideology. To make connections. In other words, people of like mind network, i think thats what theyre trying to ask. Is that that correct . Thank you. Who wants it . Ill start. So i dont get anyone deferring to me like my brother here i defer to you. [laughter] no, thats okay. I would talk from two examples. When we look at how how daish, isis, formed and the prison that they were held in, weve seen emerging evidence that people of likeminded individuals came together, and that was a finishing school where isis emerged. Weve got evidence of individuals exchanging numbers and writing the numbers and stitching them on the inside of their underwear and making sure that when they went out to their various regions of iraq, that they would be in contact with each other. So theres evidence that points to what the gentlemans saying. In the u. K. , they had an issue with a gravitation of individuals towards the extremests. And no matter where they moved them to, they saw there was this gravitation towards them. Hence, most recently theyre talking about having a prison within a prison where these extremist idealogues are going to be completely isolated. Is that the intent . Obviously, its the institutions that determine where these prisoners and these inmates are going to be moved to. Again, its understanding what weve been discussing here that can prevent likeminded individuals coming together of extremist nature to set up the platform that theyve done. Ive already mentioned the microcosm of communities from the macro element thats there. Thats not necessarily wrong in itself. But if its from an extremist element, we need to be very, very careful we avoid that. Not only avoid that, some may say we immediate to put the extremist mock the wide among the Wider Community to make sure he or she doesnt inculcate the vulnerable instances as well. This is an institutional thing. They cant be done i cant say, brother ingram, im going to this jail, ill see you there. I cant do that. We are not moved we do not determine where we are being relocated. So institutionally, we need to have these mechanisms in place to insure likeminded of extremist rhetoric and imposition, disposition, sorry, are not aligned beside each other. Okay. Anyone else want a stab at it . c sure. Yes. I would just like to add one, maybe two points. I do believe i understand the connotation of the question. All that being said, i believe of that we should add a qualifier. So the connotation of the question is speaking about group think as though it has a negative connotation. Group think as an independent entity is not necessarily negative. All of us are here today because we have some similar line of thought in rectifying extremist ideologies. Is that a negative thing . No. So just to highlight that we need to qualify that. The second thing that i would say is these peoples who are engaging in this form of extremist behavior or radicalizedded islam if we want to utilize that particular argot, it is ideological in its base. So because of that in order to solve it, not denying that there are socioeconomical, political factors that may bring about this particular, these particular actions, but at its basis ideological. So if we accept that at its base its an ideological challenge, then we need people that can approach it at its base in the ideological arena. And by default, the best people that would be qualified to do so would be muslims who are properly trained in the faith and in the orthodoxy of the faith and in the tradition of the faith in order to, in order to approach this properly. So in answering the question, again, it should be approached ideologically from people that are qualified to engage it. Okay. I think the only thing that id add, if i may sure. Is recalling what you mention about policy. Yes, its true that, i mean, even without speaking about issues of radicalization or extremism or ideology, even for things as simple as petty theft and crime the adage has always been that people will go to prison, go to jail to learn and will come out knowing more than they had beforehand. And weve now talked about symptoms about what, you know, what goes on after theyve gone in. The elephant in the room is that were actually spending more in the United States on prisons than we are on education. And we have put more into the schooltoprison pipeline than we have to the schooltocollege pipeline. And until we solve that problem, we will not solve the problems of ideological crimes or behavioral crimes unless we actually invest in all tomorrow forms of education, starting at very, very young ages. Okay. Excellent point. Here we go. There has been backlash in Montgomery County against cve. How is your Program Different . Is there a particular program youre yeah. We have the [inaudible] i mean here. Anyone up here. How is their Program Different . Are you focusing on one of their programs . Yeah [inaudible] prince georges. Oh, the tam program . Cve is combating violent extremism right. A governmentfunded program that, you know, has, that people get funding from. Right. I think that probably you both will be able to speak to that a little bit more about the differences between the programs. Personally [inaudible] well, me myself before answering that question, i would definitely want to be more aware of the particulars or the nuances of cve to do a proper crossreference. I dont know the project that youve done coming from the u. K. Myself, but i would say one of the reasons why im very pleased to be part of the tam program, the initiative is that incorporated the best elements and build upon them regarding deradicalization, counterradicalization with the most qualified. And one of the elements that is missing from many cve and we call them counterradicalization programs in the u. K. Is that ability to effectively engage head on with the issue of radicalization and violent extremism, the inability to identify at the right time when radicalization is taking place or the threat or the risk of radicalization, and then having the competent people on the ground operationally and those strategically with insight to address and target that radicalization. But in a way that enables that individual to come back and inclusively to his or her environment. And myself being in the community now for 27some years, you know, i have never seen those people who are so adamant about about rephrasing political grievances in religious language actually being that invested in their religion. There is a marvel comic book that is actually written by one of the writers for the marvel comic book is a muslim. Her name is willa wilson. And shes a writer for miss marvel. About a young girl miss marvel is a character that passes those that are worthy. And shes worthy of being miss marvel and is a super hero. Theres a panel in that willa is doing phenomenal work on this comic book. The theres a panel where theres an actual conversation with an individual who, you know, overtly looks religious, hes wearing a religious scarf, has a beard and hes questioned and he says, you know, youre questioning me because i have my i have my beard and im going to pray and everyone that has been caught for doing, you know, terrorist acts have been the guys going to strip clubs and hanging out at bars and had had girlfriends, right . So theyre not invested. The people that are invested in extremism are people that are not involved in you know, they dont want to be seen in overt methods of r religion so thats one of the problems with some of the manuals out there and theyve focused too much instead of consulting with people with the ideological issues and can solve those from the ground up. What is the greatest role of an individual in prison, inversion, conversion, radicalization, networking, mobilization, the u. S. And u. K. Perspectives . I say again, what is the greatest role of an individual in prison . Is it testify inversion, eversion, radicalization, networking, mobilization and the person with like perspectives from the u. S. And the u. K. . Im going to have to leave this to you two. I always joke and say you have converts to islam, everts to islam, and listen in the 90s and become emotionalment you can comment on the u. K. And u. S. Situation a bit more than i can. Before we were all in america, kind of came from britain first, right . Okay. The question, the premise of the question is assuming that an individual is entering from a particular Vantage Point or a disadvantage. We have to look to the one reverting or converting to islam. Conversion rate is quite high, but i think when you look at the psychological trauma to enters a prison for the first time faces, he or she is going to have a lot of reflection about their life and depending on that, change the direction, immediately to the spiritual perspective, research, i believe, is there. That talks to that. And my colleague and the article that we wrote discusses that. So, if its from the premise, the individual wants to account for what theyve done or feel they need to make a change of direction in their life, then reversion or conversion, whichever phrase is preferred, is the road that they will take. Assuming that or that the individual is then already a muslim and depending on crime theyve got convicted of. Is it like the criminal justice kept like bank robbery or Something Like this . Is it for extremist defenses, if so, the request the premise of the question is so wide you cant hold it in that respect, to many dynamics. Now, lets jump to the other scenario, if its someone. Extremist, protagonist ilk, their role, as we have seen is to proselytize and convert others to their accord and they wont move away from that. That weve seen evidence of. So, when we see that particular type of individual, there needs to be a lot of checks and balances around that individual and the access they have to others, including nonmuslims. That doesnt mean i know here, for example, youve got richard, the secretary, and theyre in solitary confinement. I cant speak to that, and not endorsing this, my ph is academic, im not a doctor of psychology, i cant talk about that. In the u. K. Perspective they seem to be following suit by wanting to build these prisons within prisons. Again, you need to speak to experts this that field as to likely consequences and effects on such individuals to the noose has effectively tightened around once they entered into prison. Youve seen me talk about different scenarios because the question is quite wide and we need to know the premise upon which someone enters into the institutions. Okay. This is for you, joe. You mentioned that middle aged white men are most prone to terrorism. What do you mean . Good question. So, homegrown terrorism and radicalization and this is actually going back to the issue of cves. One of the problems with cve programs is its primarily focused on the Muslim Community and has not focused on other home grown terrorist groups that have carried out terror attacks on americans of all different ideologies, sexual orientations, religions, backgrounds, and unfortunately, its something for the most part swept under the rug. Its always assumed to be a lone wolf issue. Its always assumed to be something which is due to their upbringing. He was such a bright child, you know, we dont know where he went wrong. Its almost never attributed to their religion, their political orientation, their own radicalization on line from right wing or left wing groups, that pull them in to a false rancid ideology and there are several studies about this. The Triangle Group of unc and duke, they have a few studies that identify white males as being susceptible to radicalization and the fbi has a few reports as well. There is the center for terrorism study at west point that made this point as well. And i think its undue, especially in light of the fact that we are only days away from the fact of an office in minnesota of an imam being fire bombed. Were hearing nothing about it. Although the governor of minnesota has come out, to the shock and guffaw of the media and said this is an act of terror. We have sikhs murdered in their temple. This was hardly, you know, mentioned in line with domestic terror. It was always looked at as crime. So, why do we afford the you know, we always have choice adjectives for those that we dont like, right . And if were going to be people that believe in American Values of fairness and justice, of equity, then we should be we should be Holding Everyone to the same standards. So the studies are there, you can look them up, and quite frankly, the reality is there. The question is, when will the, you know, when will the public vernacular change to actually address the issue because quite frankly, it can be frightening. Especially for the more vulnerable in society, that are afraid that somebody can get on the to get on an airplane and use all types of curse words, and call them, you know, malign their political affiliations without knowing them and threatening them and not be thrown off the plane. Whereas someone who is africanamerican or someone who is visibly muslim thrown off from the plane because somebody is afraid of them. How a latino prefer be thrown off the plane doing advanced math in a foreign language, right . So until we deal with that reality, were going to deal with a lot of tension in the United States, and until were honest with ourselves about the problem that this is a human condition, this is not particular to a faith and or a race, its a human conditions. Well still be reinventing the wheel every time. Thank you. For academy of time weve got abo about 14 minutes left. We cede our time. 14 minutes. Could illiteracy have an effect on the vulnerability of inmates . Whoever answers, kind of script it a little bit. Sure, sure, and at least in opening on that answer, i would offer again, and being undereducated or lacking education is a common motif throughout the prison system in the u. S. I dont know if its similar in the u. K. But, i mean, quite obviously, when a person is literate, then it is more likely that they will be able to educate themselves and really, this entire discussion that were having is about either well, its about miseducation, right . This entire discussion, miseducation, right . Thats right. On different sides, right . So absolutely, yes. So if they are properly educated, concerning extremism, then that would have a profound effect in decreasing the likelihood of extremism in the prison system. This is my particular view. May i add . Please. I think that we have to focus on the type of literacy as well. Because very often, its only those that those susceptible to mad radical extremism are those poorly educated in the sciences and that does not hold water. Many people who have been involved in terror attacks have been highly educated, engineers, doctors. I think that the problem is not one of secular education, but one of religious education. Theres a certain level of frustration with pro providence, if i may, frustration with gods will. Im smart, i have all of these qualifications and im unable to self they dont understand how as a believer youre supposed to swim through the providence of god and navigate life understanding that god has a purpose for all things. So that religious illiteracy creates the frustration that brings about radicalization. We need not only focus on those poorly educated in their formative years, but poorly educated in their religious beliefs as well. This one is for me. Welcome. Thank you. Peter king, republican new york claims that islamic radicalism in prison poses a Homeland Security threat. Do you agree . Why or why not . I would answer like this, domestic terrorism is a real problem that goes unnoticed, okay . And theres no Empirical Data that says that islamic radicali radicalism in prison poses a Homeland Security threat. You ask why. One is we dont know. And i dont think so. Second, why not . Because of the if you look at those who are incarcerated, as i said in my opening statement, theyre the most disciplined, organized, focus focused religious groups in our prisons and jails. And unless, as the panelists have explained, unless you get to them and steer them your direction, and we dont know that, i mean, i dont know of any incidences. Maybe they do, of radicalization coming out of prison. I dont. I do know there are other groups that are domestic terrorists who come out of prison. Okay . The aryan brotherhood, ap i can just go on and on and on. Now, thats a different picture thats rarely, if ever, ever, on the news. Media electronic, media printed, are coming from the hill over there, okay . And thats where the real problem is. Not islam. Not these other groups. Who do you think planted the bo bomb . I dont know, i havent seen the report. I know, i know, i know. [laughter] i dont want to speak ill speak it. Yeah. Its one of them. If anyone is knowledgeable or aware, can you address the story of imam jameel alamine, aka, brown, with respect to the subject of this panel . Now, theres a caveat here if anyone is knowledgeable. I am not although im familiar with who he is. Im definitely familiar, not as deeply as knowledgeable as what i believe the intent of the question to be. Right. To provide a proper answer. Okay. Doctor . Being from the u. K. , mythical so i dont think i can comment on that at this point. I know, you dont go there. Now, this is a deep one. Ooh, how does the Justice Department respond to or addresses complaints of entrapment of muslims in terror not sure plots . And what . And what progress has the Muslim Community done to address this issue . How does the Justice Department respond to or joe. To or rather addresses complaints. Is that what that is . Yeah. Or rather addresses complaints of entrapment of muslims in terror plots, and what progress has the Muslim Community done to address this issue . I cannot i cannot speak to the Justice Department. I dont know how their response has been. But i know in the Muslim Community there has been a focus amongst orators that have focused on muslim youth and telling them that you should be mature enough and knowledgeable enough of your own faith to not be to not many a tool for anyone, whether that be a radical extremist or that be someone trying to entrap you to then pin you as a radical extremist. We cannot, you know, be foolish enough to fall into a trap or to be pushed into one. And so, i know that thats actually happening in american mosques and amongst Muslim American youth groups that leaders are saying, you need to avoid radical extremist ideology and not allow yourself to become manipulated by those who have numbers that theyre trying to rack up for arrests and other things. Okay. This one, what effort is in place between the Muslim Community and Law Enforcement to implement an Intervention Program where there is affirmed intelligence from Law Enforcement, that an individual is attempting a terrorist activity directly or in a supportive role . I say again, what effort is in place between the Muslim Community and Law Enforcement to implement an Intervention Program when there is affirmed intelligence from Law Enforcement that an individual is attempting to terrorist activity directly or in a supportive role. They really want to know, okay, what efforts. I can speak to texas and to florida, those are two states that i have lived and i have family in and im familiar with the communities there. And i know that for the joint Terrorism Task force for the fbi offices and officers that are in the areas, as well as local police departments, there have been a lot of cooperation between leaders of the muslim communities and Law Enforcement that when there is actionable intelligence, were not talking about, you know, someone, you know, calling the fbi and their friend because theyre beating them at world of warcraft or some online game, right . Were talking about, im afraid for my son, hes talking about travelling overseas, you know, you need to do something. The fbi has called leaders of the muslim communities in texas, in several different communities and said, can you go with us and intercept this kid . Can you go and talk to him . And they have been successful in many instances of turning those youth away, in focusing on, you know, in the community. And i can say that that has happened in those two places, for the better of that young person to get them help for the betterment of the community as a whole and for the betterment of Society Saving them from any trouble that may be caused from Something Like that. Okay. Ive got the this, anybody else . I was going to offer brief thoughts. Please. Both of them pertaining to washington d. C. Firstly, it brings to mind our brother, muslim, heal him and grant him strength as we heard earlier undergoing with cancer and such. He has established a pretty Good Relationship with the washington d. C. Police department and they have fluid communication between them and theyve worked together. Id be able to go back to 2010 and prior to that, i had a five year tenure in the washington d. C. Area and they would actually engage the different mosques and establish communications and during my tenure we would go out even before. They had what they called d. C. Night out. D. C. National night out and things of this nature and we would engage one another. He does very, very well with that. And he has the discussions and things that are relative, he does convey on a personal note. Also, during my tenure, there was an individual of interest at the time with the fbi. And they be sure to stop by and we engaged one another and that particular problem, i believe they were able to solve it. So, theres a level of engagement within the local communities and Law Enforcement. Okay. Ive got one minute to wrap this up. And ill do it like this. The panel talked about education, education, education. How do we do that . Weve become ambassadors, spreading the word about true islam throughout the faith based community, throughout the business community, everywhere talking to latidatty. And everyone else. We have to put people out there who carry our water and if they dont theyve got to go home, just that simple. Then we ask the question, i know ill get in trouble for saying this. Who are the real terrorists . Okay. And i leave you with that. [laughter] thank you all, very much. [applaus [applause]. Thank you all my brothers, and thank you most of all. Okay. Sunday night on q a. If you look at every major civil insurrection that has risen up in the United States, when black people have abandoned peaceful protest and taken it to the street and newark, in baltimore, in ferguson, in los angeles, its always been because of something the police have done. Georgetown University LawSchool Professor paul butler takes a critical look at the u. S. Criminal justice sim and its impact on africanamerican men in his book chokehold, policing black men. When we look at who ought to be afraid of black men, the number one victims are other black men. If a white persons very concerned about being a victim of crime, the main person she ought to be concerned about is hadder intimate partner or husband because statistically thats a person most likely to cause her harm. Sunday night at 8 eastern on cspans q a. Cspan, where history unfolds daily. In 1979 hcspan was created as a Public Service by americas Cable Television companies. And is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. Provider. Today is the Second Annual demo day for the u. S. Department of Veterans Affairs centers for innovation. And new approaches to officially meet the needs through innovation. And today, 100 health care and Technology Innovators will be presenting. U. S. Department Veterans AffairsDavid Shulkin is the featured speaker of th