Because this is my area of concentration and focus, prison, kernel justice, but you know we have scholars here. We got real scholars. Isnt that interesting . Guess what, they are muslim. Amazing, amazing. But, i think god for the opportunity for me being here. Before introduce the panelists just a couple things. What you call them, housekeeping notes . Housekeeping notes. You will have some q and a cards on the table and we ask as we move along through the panelists that you pose your questions and write a sentence, not a paragraph, but a sentence on the cards. The cards will be collected, handed to me and i will then read the question with a statement and deferred to the panelists. That will work . That will work. I have been in this criminal justice business for 47 years, spent most of my time in corrections and my first introduction to islam was a case called foreword foreword, a Supreme Court decision that had to do with the former police chief brother who is incarcerated at the lot reformatory. The issue was the right to practice his religion, which was islam. The Supreme Court as i indicated earlier ruled in his favor and then the ball started to roll. Well, its been my experience that muslims who are in prison, they have been historically been the most disciplined, motivated and keepers of the peace, not only that, they have always been at the forefront of prison and jail reform inside jails, and outside jails and prisons and i think there has been such a lack of information about what goes on that people have this false notion that they are in war inside the prison. Thats an untruth. Muslims were the most progressive inmates that ive ever worked with. This is just now beginning t. I read a report the other day, that a corrections director had written. I will not call the system, but he talked about how they were having meetings with the disruptive elements in the community. He was way off base because those who were involved, my dear of disruptive, they are educating the total population about what islam is all about. A really peaceloving people. But we listened and read all of this unfortunate information that comes out of certain houses. I wont tell you what color the houses i need not do that because you already know. In addition, the mass media, electronics, and print. So, what we hope to do today is to educate you, familiarize you as to what the real deal is. What the real deal is. From there we are really considering taking all of this stuff on the road. To show the country what is really going on with the muslim family. I guess im the only nonmuslim up here. I feel so comfortable i really do. But god is good. So, having said all that from my notes i want to stay on target and on time. We have doctor abdul, doctor baker, my englishman from london doctor kenneth the second who says hes not there yet with the doctoral, you got it now honorary. In the my good friend joe from houston, texas. And i told him they dont dress like that in texas. You have the wrong stuff on joe. But on a serious note, i ask that you tune in, listen, and become educated and become educated. So, having said that doctor baker. I volunteer joe. Joe, the majority rule. Well, first of all i want to thank all of you for attending today and to thank the organizers in the group for putting this together and to thank the museum for hosting the event and of course i want to thank my good friend for fostering this english term the moderator. So, what i want to talk to, were supposed be talking about radicalization in the prison system and its a hotbed for radicalization or for reform, what is the rule that islam can play in preventing radicalization and preventing people who are incarcerated or along those lines. What i would like to speak to today about three main issues. Number one, how legitimate is the charge that radicalization is rampant in the u. S. Prison system . Number two. What challenges does government involvement pose to the process of the radicalization, and how can the system and beliefs become an effective tool for change and positive reform of prisoners in prison. We were talking, were discussing the issue of prison radicalization. This is very important to challenge the notion of its existence and im asking as a nonspecialist in that area, i dont have the Empirical Data, but is there sufficient Empirical Data thats being provided by those making claims that radicalization is happening at a rampant range in the u. S. Prison system . As the dr. Said, yes, there is susceptibility, but is it actually happening . Thats a question we have to ask. We cant just ask an affirmative based upon biases we carry about people who are incarcerated, about muslims, or the nature of islam, or any other minority faith group in the United States. Further claims like this is to malign a community and is not only bad character, but bad policy. It also cannot go without saying that assumptions about radicalization play heavily into the prevailing prejudices in the american psyche. Whether those be racebased prejudices as member of a ethnicity. Being predisposed to criminal intent and action, or religion based prejudices function the same way. Many times these two are intertwined. Islam is the scene is extremism among minorities and minority groups are seen as synthetic among extremism in the minds majority area members of society. In essence, this line of thoug thought, racebased or religion based prejudice attempts to pin the causes of extremism and radicalization on something outside of, and for into the American Culture psyche. Mainly seen as judeochristian, civilized, and of european background. The racialized tones of many of the discussions on this issue run credence to this. However, my comments here will not focus on the Empirical Data instead, had that been the case i would be speaking to not a my role as a member of the american Muslim Community, nor my role as a thought leader in that community, but instead, as a member of one area that data has shown that is most predisposed to violent extremism in homegrown terror, namely, middleaged White American males. What i do want to talk to you about what my comments will focus on are the challenges of those who have to straddle what seem to be competing value system. The values of freedom of religion, speech, and expression. The value of reasonable accommodation for those were incarcerated. On one side we have these values, the upside we have religious affiliations and ideologies and beliefs that may be a poster seem to be opposed at times to the system that speaks to protect it. Let me give you an example. If i, as an american, this is not my believe, but if i were to say i believe it is wrong for any american to have access to firearm regardless of what type it is, i believe that all firearms should be banned, this is a belief which goes against a core constitutionally protected right. However, my adopting this belief does not forfeit my right to be protected by those other Constitutional Rights that are afforded to me. The question then becomes, is protecting beliefs and values that are not normative or not popular, if we do so are we going against our own values in favor of another value system . Those who we see as conservative or extreme . Will we protect those rights and to protec practice those in the confines of american law, does that mean we are enabling illicit practices are endangering the american public. Is it appropriate for us to label those we see as conservative, austere, or beyond her own scope of practice is something extreme or veers toward the path of radicalization. When such labeling becomes a matter policy this is where the problem grows. Theres an obvious danger for the government exceeding its boundaries and going about beyond religious commendations to religious dictations. Dictating to any religious person or group the practices that consider legitimate or a legitimate form of that faith. If you solely through the lens of National Security, it would make sense to challenge the ideas that lead to radicalization. We agreed those need to be challenged. But, when the assumption is that radicalization effectively counters terrorism and protect the american public. Why shouldnt government officials try to marginalize what they view as theology side as violent extremists, when that poses a danger not only to individuals but society at large . The problem is that when governments attempt to dictate their religious beliefs they create strategic tensions. For the practitioner of that religion targeted by the government this governmentsponsored religion appears to be if a foreign to their own. And when they do not recognize. In the context of the Broader Community it seems like the government is playing favorites and rereading their religion. Dictating to them what is and is not acceptable. This would contravene the basic rights that everyone regardless of faith expects to be afforded to them under law. This is exacerbated when the populations that make up the majority of muslim communities come from backgrounds for the expectation from government is that they intervene to the detriment of the individual. Whether it be the historical memories or Security Apparatus is a foreign government, persecuting the most basic performance of faith such as prayer in the mosque, u. S. Government programs that seek to dictate what muslims believe star should be will cause mistrust inadvertently push people away and towards radicalism, not away from it. Even indirect influence into the community thought process can be seen a suspect, and many times is. Programs that seek such as preventive or see for the purpose of combating radicalization will oftentimes have the opposite effect. When the individuals who represent the authority in the community are seen as puppets or compromise, then we cannot expect those who would lean towards radical beliefs to confide in them and to reform their ideas. We certainly cannot expect to stay away as they will consistently try to mend what they see a compromise of religious ideals. By expected a brief a concer confidentiality for those who work in religious functions of muslim communities, we compromise the effectiveness of religious authority to be a positive force in d radicalization. The solution in my humble opinion lies in arches creating institutions and initiatives grounded in faith, socially relevant and legally viable, but in reevaluating what it means to have religious leadership. Who is a chaplain, and who speaks for islam . What sort of faith we have in our text and what sort of trust to have those entrusted to interpret it. If we can answer this question is a Muslim Community and instead allow ourselves to interpret it, how are our personal interpretations of a government more authoritative or valid than those of others . Here feel support as well that muslim communities themselves cannot only denounce radical beliefs but see themselves as partners and be seen as partners by organizations and government authorities that want to work with them to combat their police for any purpose whether that be for National Security or to promote extreme acts that will damage society. As a whole, at home or abroad the question that is how can the blue space for positive change and reform the people prone to radicalization . With regard to government policy, Correctional Institution that what is needed is an open door policy for religious affiliated or qualified individuals to counsel, teach, and advise incarcerated individuals that may be susceptible to radicalization. With regards to chaplains and those in the rehabilitation of prisoners is imperative that theology of his person of choice and personal responsibility be in them and all those under their supervision speaking from a muslim theological perspective, this means the basic believes of islam are taught to those individuals in a fashion that does not play into any one radical list or extreme group. Chaplains and other individuals as well as laypeople may subscribe to more conservative or liberal point of view about their own faith, but we have to recognize is not one individual perspective of religion, whether islam or any other religion that is susceptible to radicals or extremists. Indeed, weve seen in the past two years how versions of sunni islam, if she is long and even others in the events that occurred in turkey have shown us regardless of religious orientation, each of these groups may be coopted for political purposes. One of the hallmarks of radical beliefs is there a tendency to engage in groupthink. And their ability to make their own decision. Instead demanded from their dogmatic of the groups ideals. Its important to present the general precepts of islam and how first and foremost every individual believer be held accountable for their actions and their belief. In the book this idea personal responsibility is reiterated. Every social be accountable for what endurance. A knows every social be concerned of itself on the day of judgment. In one tradition, man came out of the desert and asked the prophet mohammed if he only prayed his prayers and give his charity the basics of islam would he enter paradise and he said yes. When he has the prophet turned to his companion said to them, if he is true to his word, then he will indeed enter paradise. Another tradition, the prophet says the muslim is the one that people are safe from his tone in his hand. The believers on people are secure from in the immigrant is the one who migrated away from sinfulness. In another he says whoever kills a person whom they are in covenant with them a social contract with them they will not smell the scent of paradise even though it sent can be smelled from a distance. So, time is to whats related as points of historical memory are points of consensus in early muslim scholarship is important as well. So that those were susceptible to radicalization can see that the ideas are having civic duty and personal responsibility have been upheld as ideals from the earliest muslim generation. The key here is telling people the ability to make informed religious choices and that there religiously motivated practices be made consciously by themselves. Those who are susceptible to the nuances must be taught the ultimate responsibility of each and every one falls upon themselves to ensure their personal public safety. Teaching a muslim individual, incarcerated or not that there was civic duty toward their front fellow man and a responsibility to god to fulfill that duty is paramount. It will only be through the teaching of islamic beliefs in the broader sense that will create a sense of identity and that religiously practiced individual. What this does is creates in the mind of the practicing believer that their personal, private practice does not should not dictate the minimums of public religiosity. So all i as an individual may be more conservative or more austere my approach and practice of religion, im not expected, no sure i force that on the public. In fact what im expected to do as a religious practitioners to guarantee for the public their personal safety for myself and from anyone who would want to do them harm. By encouraging us to take personal responsibly for their action, impairing those actions with being held with god himself, along with prophetic traditions we mentioned, those working in the service and education of incarcerated individuals can with any lapse of judgment and engage with radicalized group. To sum up my long runon sentence to you all, charges that radicalization is a problem, specifically charges that radicalization of violent extremism is a problem need to be substantiated with hard numbers so they are not used for propaganda both in and outside of prison. When government officials attempt to dictate religious beliefs they effectively contravening both American Values and jeopardizing, and or reversing the desired effects of the radicalization. This people can be avoided by governmental agencies partnering with, not targeting or sponsoring muslims with the expertise necessary for reformer prisoners and those that are inclined to radicalization. Was on chaplains, imams, experts and Community Leaders can affect positive change. Reading this in historical memory and enable those individuals to take personal agency in the religiously motivated practices. Thank you very much. Thats all i have to say. [applause] thank you joe. One of the resounding things we have heard this morning and of course we are continuing his education. We need to focus on the politicians, government leader, Community Leaders about what this is really about. And now waller will hear from doctor in the name of the law, the merciful was still mercy. The world of incarceration is an interesting one. The people in our society that commit crime. Then when we believe we have the right person we then put them away in a prison system, hopefully we got three person. What is consistent though is that these people, the population of people that they are stored away for years on e end. What we dont always consider at that timeis that that speculation of people, they will become returning citizens. They will be coming back into society. So, at the point that we realize that it raises two questions, one question is, how will this person be when they come back into society . And for all these years we stored them away, what was their developmental process throughout that time that they were away . So, what you think about this if a person is successful when they come back into society, a lot of that has to do with the support they receive when they come back into society. But a larger part of that has to do with how they were being cultivated while they are being incarcerated. So we return back to this point, so we can discuss this further only look at the prison system from a theological basis in the populations within the prison system you find interesting things. You learn a lot. Things you didnt know existed things such as the temple of the black messiah, you learn about this faith group in spirituality, you learn things. But, amongst everyone present the largest population as the people who subscribe to the christian faith. Thats largest population. Second to them what is consistent after that would be muslims. Now, we currently have about upwards of 20000 people incarcerated. Now whats interesting with th this, and i need you to walk with me a little bit. Whats interesting, is that the world of incarceration is not the real world. And the rules to function when one is incarcerated are not necessarily the rules that you and i are operating by. Its, in many ways of the race survivalist took atmosphere at times. And we place people in this environment, and is a very authoritative environment and a lot of control is taken away from the people who are incarcerated. So the kind of throw that in the pot and you have people that become very susceptible to being antigovernment, antiestablishment, antiauthority with this we should mention a brief story. About ten years ago i had a discussion with an agent of the federal bureau of investigation in my home. We had a bit of a debate in our discussion and what he had positive that there are they are operating with at that time was that a person who is incarcerated and is africanamerican, and his muslim and further, us subscribes to it someone describes as equates to terrorism. Homegrown terrorism. So we had that discussion and debate, i believe i won that debate. But we need to say this. On the ground, realtime in the prison system do not commonly find people who ascribe to radicalized islam ideology. You dont find people who describe themselves to isis, or you normally find that in that type of away. So the prison system is not producing terrorists. In that way. Is there radicalization . Is there extremism . Yes, that exists. That is part impartial of the nature of what the prison system briefs. Because it is a very survivalist stick atmosphere, very base nature type of atmosphere, theres a tendency for the people being held there to see things in terms of black and white. Sometimes you make a great, but you wont get a Broad Spectrum of color in their thinking and decisionmaking process. Now, there Something Else we want to add to the spa has been in sue. Is the direction of the prison system at current. If you go back far enough, you go back into the late 1800s, throughout the 1920s and beyond, the focus was on punishment at a point it wasnt even lawful for them to speak to each other. Even when they were working they cannot talk to each other. The 60s it became rehabilitative now, that stretched down to the 80s but with the war on drugs and things thats shifted. So its not so much focused on the rehabilitation anymore. We think it is we do enough to make ourselves feel like maybe theres rehabilitation going on in there some programs that are present, but men mea many of the programs are either not relevant or not updated, not properly funded, not when we put money into these people were harming us and doing disservice to our society. So all of that when they come out you may have a problem. They may not be able to integrate properly back into society. Now along with this, to add to the point about not really finding people who subscribe to terrorist groups in prison is a norm, prisons are like a quarantine from the perspective of the inmate being held, they are operating a most 20 years in the past. We have monitors, screens, and their circles and learning, theyre using chalk on board. That people who dont have the knowhow to utilize the computer. Much of the extremism is the way of the internet and online. Its a quarantine. From this perspective its a safe environment. But, because of the nature of the prison system, they are very susceptible to extremist ideas and behaviors. Now, we do have people as doctor bakers mentioned that are now being incarcerated into our system who do ascribe to such ideology. Now they are coming in. So you have these people with those people, and it is very feasible that without the proper development, without the proper programs in the proper access they can be easily convinced that these people, these institutions, the government that is put the institution into place that have you here for so long in your life has been taken away, theres a problem. This is our solution for that problem. This affects both peoples who are muslim and nonmuslim in the prison system. Throughout the prison system islam is the secondlargest faith. And it is fastly growing. Many people are embracing the faith of islam nationally. So, if they are influenced in this fashion and islam continues to spread, well then, these extremist ideologies may also spread with that throughout the prison system. What im saying, we have opportunity. We have opportunity now to get on the forefront and to get ahead of this by getting into these prison systems in reaching the population bringing them up today and properly educating them and developing them concerning extremism and misinterpretations of islam so they can be properly equipped to understand what is going on and to deflect any doubtful matter that could be presented to them. If we do not then as time comes i may come back into society we may actually have real time home bread terrorists. These are the thoughts i have to offer at least open a discussion realtime of whats going on the ground and to get us thinking a little bit. Thank you. [applause] again,. [inaudible] as we think about corrections governed by Public Policy, Public Policy leads to revenue, money. As i heard the dr. Speak, his talking about improving conditions and correction from a humane standpoint. And that is something we typically miss. Along with that continued thread of educating people as to what islam is really about there is and should be an effort to educate the correctional leader they need to know and understand who they are spinning the policy for. They dont have a clue. Right today there are only three persons of color who run adult correctional facilities in america. Three. What does that speak to . If we control legislation congress, and all of that, you see it different a different operation. Public policy drives this stuff. Local legislatures, governors, they control it. So as the dr. Speaking, conditions are poor and as a result people are angrier you put them in these horrible conditions and they become angrier. So they become vulnerable. Whoever makes it sound good, thats where they will go. Now, who come to the honorable, the wonderful doctor dave. Thank you. Want to look at the framework that weve looked at before, its necessary to do that. I think doctor ingram, their lectures, none of the important things the agencies need to do, you see this framework again that i have used, we need to identify and understand the stages of development of the inmate is there going into these institutions. Why . Because it is likely and confirmed that they will replicate at a microcosmic level, the very communities they come from. We see it with the gang. The gangs gravitate toward their colleagues within the game. In their particular cult they adhere to. Similarly, from the british context when they go into prison they gravitate towards those of likeminded ideology, culture, and background. Those that dont, theyre coming into an arena of uncertainty, bid nonmuslims who convert muslims who come from a genuine reality of community. So, they are very vulnerable and susceptible. The professor and i wrote an article that was produce in english and written in turkish last month, what you have been hearing from joe and the dr. Are concerns around that. Because these institutions have a perception of muslims coming in. Theyre going to make them gravitate or place them in categories that they are comfortable with. This is potentially disaster. The understanding then made is coming not just entire need and not just the close there were, but understanding their religious direction and underpinning, did they come from any of these communities . Theyre not just the for that theyre coming from before. You can look at the Shia Community of the dichotomies that exist within those. Once you have identified the you need to ask yourself, is that also taking place outside and inside . There is mention of how they come out of prison, are they within the same community they were in before . By virtue of their prison release to the have to relocate . Have we equip them . In the u. K. Many individuals release from prison were back in prison because they could not cope with what they faced outside. Yet they were told to go back into your community or they move them to different environments and they cannot cobra just because it was an alien environment for them. This is the framework that i developed in my phd studies. Its an altogether different field of research, the lifecycle of organization. I took that and adopted it to see if i could test that regarding converts and muslims returning. You see four stages, the founding stage is a very new developing stage for an individual, theyre very susceptible at that stage because they lack knowledge. What the have his religious vigor. What they have is emotion. Their learning from abstract understanding and they have not experienced what theyre learning. They moved to the overzealous stage and if you look up money of those in syria, iraq, and you listen to their rhetoric and core yes its overzealousness, youll see misplaced understanding of the religion. And these particular areas are highly politicized. Vulnerable stages. When inmates are coming into be know it states there at when theyre coming in . If we capture them that i dont mean literally chain capture them im talking about their religious a mental state condition. If were able to engage with them and provide a discernible context of learning, they were starting in the right direction. This is for the institution themselves. So again we go back to what was mentioned earlier if there is this partnership these discussions can take place. The muslim experts can come in and take time to establish and determine where these muslims are. We want to move them, like ourselves to the safer stage. Where reflection takes place and actualization takes place. Theyre now practicing their religion in tenets of their face for practice and understanding and experience. Not from abstract dvds, this me to a context thats different altogether, via the asia the middle east or africa. We need to Work Together institutionally to move them in that direction. The last framework you saw was a basic rudimentary framework. With how it could resonate with. The more detailed ones followed in here was a further adaptati adaptation. The reason that developed is because you have an issue which talks about perceptible, vulnerable inmate. We heard that from my colleagues. What about extremists and protagonists. Lets focus now and you might say why do we have to look at framework for them, i cannot fit him into the previous slide. I couldnt say he was at the founding stage. It was too descriptive. I not says at the adult stage either it doesnt mean the extremists could reach that but i could not reach him into that. When i sit with my professors i search and search and how can i solve a particular problem. I was able to amalgamate those to framework and develop what you see at the bottom with regards to abstract of understanding to actualizing. I was then able to place individuals lick at the useful stage. Why . He was providing information she had not fully embraced himself. He provided information and was disseminating it with his own misunderstanding and interpretation. He studied in a muslim country, but his actualization was distorted. I talk about the propagators as well. Ill give you some examples. An individual was imprisoned in the u. K. They placed him beside one of these propagators of extremism while he was in there baby for that individual was to be released i received a phone call from the police. They tell me that we have got intelligence at this individual is going to be the shortly and he has been discussing the fascination of two individuals. When i got the call, i was surprised and i wondered how that couldve taken place in with them knowing how they had it inability that this individual is going to be released in coming to the community with knowing that level. They could not and would not do anything about it. They did not have the mechanism. Colleagues put in mechanisms of support around the mom and when the individual came out some a new and engaged with him. I want to move to different states now to show you about what is required when engaging with extremist and their followers. There are very few communities that show the bravery for the courage to deal with this, we let the individual come back into our community, the individual took part my program, i deliberately engage in this individual and spent time with him. Privately, obviously aware of what has come from intelligence and this is another things i face, your intelligence has to be accurate. It has to be accurate. If we respond to what is given to us in every instance we can per patch exacerbate the problem. As the Muslim Community we rely upon our own intelligence among her colleagues. Those are in prison, those are out of prison who gave feedback which enabled that engagement to take place. Another individual came to this individual and i got him working voluntarily in my organization i said you know this information the individual contacted you on the phone and tears. He said i would never harm you. Had that been the intention from the beginning but due to the engagement, remember the motto for you for people like you. If we fit these individuals into these boxes and categories, muslim or nonmuslim we give them no room for development. We stereotype them. We see these happily with minority communities and in the u. K. And elsewhere. When we put these into neat little boxes because we can deal with these boxes theres no room for progress for these individuals. Many will say is this a category placement and they do very well. Understand the stage of development is essential for institutions. At an Institution Level in order to address some of the things i have addressed what you have heard here. I will conclude there is a description of those levels and if you have time to read them, please take time to have a look at them and how the most rudimentary understanding days to progress to a level of wisdom, where individuality, where responsibility is just as mentioned this taken on by the individual. They take responsibility for their own action. They look at that as an aspect of knowledge and in an environment where they are entitled or provided with amenities and utensils to do that. We dont move them, we talked about groupthink and we talk about culturalism. But for reinforcing groups and cultures because were not enabling them to act as individuals, to process them themselves. In this is very key, because summons by the sense of religiosity, many go to prison and become more per practicing of whatever faith it is. He might start praying five times a day, growing a beard, but we start becoming worried as an intelligence agencies say theyre moving toward extremism. In my research we have to differentiate between ideological extremism and behavioral extremism. Behavioral extremism is subjective. It cannot be seen as extreme. In another country the beard might be seen as extreme. Another country it isnt. Is subjective. We cannot determine extremism based on outward appearance in particular modes of behavior. However, if we establish theres an ideological line of extremism and i mentioned earlier on from an aspect of the unification of worship. They divided that into four categories. They made a fourth category of politicized it. We hear individuals with that is sent talking about governments know, the governments for them it was a near enemy. Al qaeda then changed it for the far enemy, the west if we hear these types of beliefs when we come out we can come out in the name of moose loan, then you know that is ideological extremism. And aspects of the behavior and analogist to that. The behavior by itself . Institutions need to be very careful when they see an increase. And they take that as indications in symbolism of extremism. This is very dangerous. This tends to be happening in the u. K. Prisons, im not sure if its happening in u. S. Prisons but we need to differentiate between those two. Thank you. [applause] time for q a. I specialize in manuscript reading. Often penal system jails are described as Networking Opportunities for people of likeminded ideology to make corrections. How true is this . And how to prevent it is true . I will say it again. Often penal systems jails are described as Networking Opportunities for people of likeminded ideology. To make connections. In other words, people likeminded network, i think that is what theyre trying to ask, is that correct . Who wants it . I will start. I will talk from example. When we look at how isis formed the prison that they were held in, we are seeing emergent the people of likeminded individuals came together and that was a school where isis emerged, where individuals exchanged numbers and their station side their underwear and make sure they went when nobody else, there be in contact with each other, theres everything from what they were saying. In the u. K. , they had an issue with the gravitation of individuals toward extremists. No matter where they move them to, they saw this gravitation toward them. Hence theyre talking about having to prison within a prison where these extremist are going to be completely isolated. Is that the intent . Obviously those are determined where the are going to be moved to. Its understanding what weve been discussing here. But it can prevent likeminded individuals coming together to solve the platform. Ive already mentioned the microcosm of communities from the micro element there. Thats not necessarily any itself but from an extremist element we need to be very careful we avoid that. And some may say we need to put extremists against the wider community, to make sure that he or she does not inculcate the accepting vulnerabilities. So this is the institution thing that causes that develop. I cannot say rather ingram, im going to this gel, i will see you there. We do not determine where we are being relocated. So institutionalize we need to have the mechanisms in place to ensure likeminded of extremist rhetoric they are not aligned beside each other. Anyone else want to have a say . Yes, i would just like to add maybe one or two points. I do believe i understand the connotation of the question, that being said i believe we should add a qualifier. The connotation of the question is looking at it as though it has a negative connotation. Groupthink, as an independent entity is not necessarily negative. All of us are here today that have some similar line of thoughts and rectifying extremist ideology. Is not a negative thing . No. So the second thing i would say is, these people who are engaging extremist behavior it is ideological and it space. So not to nine that there are socioeconomical, political factors that may bring about during these. If we accept that added space ideological challenge, then we need people who can approach it by default the best people who would be qualified to do so would be muslims who are properly trained in the faith and in the orthodoxy of the faith and in the tradition of the faith in order to see this properly. So again, should be approached ideologically from people who are qualified to engage it. Okay. The only thing that i would add is recalling policy. We have put more into the school to prison pipeline and until we solve the problem we will let solve the of problem of ideological or behavioral crime were starting a very young ages. There has been a backlash in montgomery county. How is your Program Different . Is there a particular program . How is the Program Different . Combat violent extremism. That program is called cbe that people get funding from and you can probably speak to that a little bit more. Me myself definitely i want to be more aware the particulars and nuances. I dont know of that project comes from a the u. K. Itself with that initiative. In with those elements regarding the radicalization and terrorism. Without one element that is missing is that ability to effectively engage that ability to identify at the right time with radicalization is taking place. And then have the people on the ground with insight to address and target that enables the individual to come back exclusively to his or her environment. If i can just add that if you mention the competent individual many of these standards to identify extremism are simple strokes repeated a and reiterated. So with that manual issued here in the United States copied many times over with the morning prayer at the mosque was considered an indicator which quite frankly is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever heard. And now being in the Muslim Community over 27 years, i have never seen those people that are so adamant about rephrasing political grievances to be that invested with the religion. There is a marvel comic book that is written by one of the of writers about a young girl. In the comicbook world that passes on that is worthy to be this superhero and there is interesting panel and is doing absolutely phenomenal work the panel with there is an actual conversation that over the looks religious and is questioned to say you are questioning me because i have my beard and i am going to pray and to be caught for the terrorist acts or going to the strip clubs are heading of the bars. So the people that are invested in extremism are not involved. They dont want to be seen with religiosity. So that is a problem on what is out there they focus too much on what is consulting with people focusing on those ideological issues from the ground up. What is the greatest role of individuals . Radicalization, networking mobilization from the u. S. And u. K. Perspective . I will say again what is the greatest role of the individual in prison . Radicalization . Conversion . Networking . Perspectives from the u. S. And the u. K. I will say you have those that got emotional in the 90s but you can comment more than i can. So the promise of the question or from that particular Vantage Point so we have to look for example, the one who at the Conversion Rate is quite high but the individual who enters the of prison for the first time that has reflection about their life and can change the direction to a spiritual place in the research is there so of this from the promise the individual needs a change of direction with the conversion is the road that they will take. Assuming there already a muslim is this within the criminal Justice System . If so, if you cannot really hold it in that respect. Now jump to the other scenario. If it is the protagonist then their role is to proselytize and convert. We have seen evidence of that. When we see this with those checks and balances in the access they have to others i know you have solitary confinement at cannot speak to that there probably psychological expect and expects as they become a doctor in psychology but from the uk perspective again they need to speak to experts of those consequences as the noose tightens andy we need to know the premise. You mention them middleaged white men are most prone to terrorism. Homegrown terrorism and radicalization goes back to one of the problems with the programs it is unduly focused on the community and has not focused on other homegrown terrorists groups that have carried out terror attacks on americans of all different ideologies are religions or backgrounds and unfortunately for the most part is swept under the rug this seems to be the lone wolf issue this is due to their upbringing he was such a bright child we dont know where he went wrong it is almost never attributed to their religion or political orientation further of radicalization from right wing or left wing groups that pulled them in the groups of that rand said ideology so they have a few studies that identify white males to be susceptible to radicalization the fbi has a few as well at the center for terrorism studies at west point especially in light of the fact were only one day away from the imam in minnesota although the governor has come out in shock of the media to say this is an act of terror. Those that were murdered in their temple, hardly mentioned in line with all the live cad is crime so why the really sad choice advocates for those that we dont like it if we believe in American Values of fairness or justice or equity then we should hold everyone to the same standard and quite frankly the reality is there but the question is when will that public vernacular change . Because quite frankly can be frightening especially for them more vulnerable in society that our afraid so they can get on the airplane to use curse words in the wine their political affiliations and cannot be thrown off the plane or somebody who is visibly muslim how that latino mathematician can be thrown off of the plane for doing advanced math in a foreign language. So until we deal with that reality therell be a lot of tension in the United States had been telomere honest that this is a human condition we will be read fatigue though well. Reinventing the wheel and. Could be literacy have an effect on the vulnerability . That cancer is scripted a little bit. I would offer the emphatic yes. To lack that education throughout the of president prison system. Of the person is literate it is more likely they can educate themselves and it is about to miss education on different sides so absolutely yes. To have a profound increasingly likelihood of extremism. We have to focus on the type of literacy as well because very often only those are susceptible to radicalization extremism are poorly educated in the secular science and that is not always hold water many people involved in terror attacks are highly educated it is one of religious literacy and education there is a certain level with frustration of providence to have i of the qualifications but i instilled and able to relieve those political or social grievances that frustration bubbles up because they dont understand how you are supposed to swim through the providence of god that god has a purpose so that religious illiteracy creates that frustration and radicalization. Those the only poorly educated in their formative years. With islamic radicalism with a Security Threat you agree . Why or why not . I would answer like this. Domestic terrorism is a real problem that goes unnoticed there is no Empirical Data with islamic radicalism poses a homeland Security Threat. Second, why not . They are the most disciplined organized and focused religious groups than our prisons say in jails unless you get to them was so maybe they do radicalization. But i do know there are other groups that our domestic terrorists. With the aryan brotherhood i could go on and on and that is a different picture. Media electronics or printed that is where the real problem is. I dont want to speak. I will. [laughter] if anybody is knowledgeable can you address the story of imam ak a farmer brown the subject of a panel . If anybody is knowledgeable. I am familiar with what they intended that question to me i will not comment at this point. [laughter] this is deep how does the Justice Department respond or address those complaints of muslims of terror . Ended what to way can they address this issue . How does the Justice Department respond. Is that what that is . [laughter]. I cannot speak for the Justice Department the in the Muslim Community there has been the focus with those servants and a the mosques or focused on the muslim youth to tell them that you should be mature enough for knowledgeable enough of your own faith cannot become a tool for anyone rather a radical extremist or someone trying to entrap you. We cannot be foolish enough in the American Mosque that when the leaders say to avoid radical extremist ideology and to become manipulated for those to rack up. So what further effort is in place to implement the Intervention Program that the individual is attending a terrorist activity of a supportive role . What effort to is in place between the Muslim Community and lawenforcement to implement that Intervention Program from lawenforcement directly in a supportive role. So what efforts . The states that i have lived in or i am familiar with the communities and with the joint Terrorism Task force those that are in the area is so well along with Police Departments to lot of cooperation between leaders of the muslim communities that when there is actual intelligence calling the fbi their friend that i am afraid for my son who is talking about traveling overseas you need to do something. And in several different communities to have said can you go with us to intercept the kid . And they have been successful in many instances to turn the youth away. To those character traits that are triggered in the Muslim Community and for the better of that young person for the betterment of society. So just on a brief thought. And those pertaining to washington d. C. And those that are in and brand strength that we heard earlier. But it brings him to mind with a critical relationship of washington d. C. Police department and they have very fluid communication between them. And hand they Work Together. I would be able to say the going back they would engage and these to have the d. C. Night out and we would engage one another. They did very well with that and has discussions that our relative on a personal note. Also during my tenure there was an individual of interest with the fbi. Dave a vague they made sure to stop by to have a conversation and we could solve that. So there is a love full of engagement in the Muslim Community a and lawenforcement. We have one minute to wrap this up. The panel today has talked about education, education, educat ion. How do we do as we become ambassadors to spread the word about true is what islam throughout the faith based community, social organizations, the business community, everywhere it is crucial that we communicate to get the message out the second is Public Policy mitt to put people in office that will carry our water. If they dont they have to go home. But then we ask the question and i will get in trouble but who are the real ones . I leave you with that. [applause] [inaudible conversations]. Cspans washington journal, live every day with news and policy issues that impact you. Coming up on tuesday morning, a charlottesville conservative talk show host joe thomas discusses this weeks violence. And aaron mer sean talks about the opioid crisis. And then samantha arteague on disparities in