Transcripts For CSPAN2 Deep Thinking 20170827

Garry is chairman of the Human Rights Foundation, former world chess champion, and author of the new book odeep thinking where Machine Intelligence ends and human creativity begins. Born in azerbaijan, he became the under18 chest champion of the ussr at age 12. And the world yeah. And the world under 20 champion at age 17. He gained International Fame at the aim of 22 as the youngest world chess champion in history. He defended his title five times, including a Legendary Series of matches against his ale archrival. He called for democratic reform. He was a early porter of Boris Yeltsins push to break up the soviet union. In 1990 he and his family escaped agent nick violence as the uss collapsed. In 2005 in his 20th year thats word los top rate player re retired from professional chess to join the van guard of the russian prodemocracy movement. In 2012 he was named chairman of the new york based Human Rights Foundation, succeeding pavel, and he was facing imminent arrest in 2013 during putins crackdown and moved from moscow to new york city. His u. S. Based Kasparov Chess Foundation continues to promet the teaching of chess in the Education System its around the world, pertinent to the executioned to he is a senior visiting fellow at the Oxford Martin school with focus on humanmachine collaboration, and i had to cut stuff out he is so accomplished. A member of the executive Advisory Board of the foundation for responsible robotics, as you know, 20 years ago, in may of 1997, the world watch as mr. Gar r kasparov think greatest chess player in the world, was defeat for the first time by the ibm super computer, deep blue. He like today point out that people forget the year before he won his match against the computer. And he says that his competition symbolized mans fight against machine, yet years after losing to deep blue two decade later, he has come to see how humans and machines can partner to reach result that neither can attain alone that and is the subject of his new book deep thinking. Please join me in giving a warm welcome to mr. Garry kasparov. [applause] before we get into the subject of your book and all of these interesting conversation after i. And a. I. And its lets talk about russia. Can you just give us some insight into what it was like to be a dissident in it putinled worry. Russia. Talk to us about that. Its funny. Eight months ago i was here in San Francisco and just traveled across the country promoting my previous book, winter is coming. About putin. Everyone wanted to ask me about ibm and deep blue. So, now i have a new book and i think its inescapable, but somehow its probably this two subject connected because a lot of russian stories are connected to cyber security, to its not a. I. But about interference, using new technology. Now, regarding the situation in russia, its also quite extraordinary moment, just arrive here today and just San Francisco airport, and while waiting for our car i looked at the news from moscow, so calling for big rallies on june 12th. So seems in four days time, we have another massive rally in russia. There are something 211 cities now just people in this russian cities they already are express their desire to join the rally against corruption, but oft of court against Vladimir Putin. Mention that because that somehow answers the question that im being asked all the time. So, Vladimir Putin is so popular. How do you know . Youre in this country. You can measure the popularity of a politician by look at opinion polls. Maybe fluctuate plus, minus, three or four Percentage Points but it cannot be you cannot mix 80 and 30 . Now, in putins russia, first of all you have to recognize that people are being asked anonymously what would you think of putin they feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. Yes, because its the many of them were either born in the soviet union or have viv red vivid enemy rid about soviet union, and asking their opinion about the kgb dictator, either by phone are on the street, putin its in jeopardy. When they say oh, 80 of russian people are being asked about putin support him, my question is, i want to look at the remaining 20 . So theres still 20 of people who are so unhappy theyre not afraid to see what they think about putinment i wouldnt pay any real attention to these polls because the true popularity of putin could be measured be the fact that so many people are willing to join this rally. Into the thats in San Francisco and new york, when you are being protected by the police. Most likely be front fronted by riot police, and people realize there is a risk but still willing to show their dissatisfaction, disagreement and willingness to see cheng. When putins regime and putins cronies tried to organize bill rallying like supporting annexation of crimearch they bring people from the statepaid jobs, they give money and its many times recorded because they couldnt have enough enthusiasm, real enthusiasm so they had to pay for it. So even if 80 90 of people are willing to take action, the actual level of support for putin, enthusiastic support, its quite thin. What led you, though to your decision to leave the country . What were the factors that led up to that . Oh, i got an invitation, if you may call to visit the russian fbi. Invitation. Invitation to be its like bear witness on one of the many cases they started at the time after big brothers in 20112012. There was crackup and many of my colleague were arrested or being investigated, and when i received that actually i was traveling abroad. My mother received it, and i called boris, my friend and colleague and ally, and ask his opinion, and boris was adamant hitch said, garry, stay away. You enter building and if you leave the building you will not be a witness anymore but a suspect. So, i wish he would have followed his own advice because it was apparent at the time that a regime would not play by it own rules and if putin wanted to eliminate any of your position, and looking at the list of people who marched with me ten years ago, five, six years ago, on moscow streets, either in jail, exile or worse. You wrote the book winter is coming talking about putin being a danger for the world ask critical of Obama Administration not taking the threat serious enough. Which we had thought about that. We jaw say we should shank trump for showing how fragile our Democratic Institutions are. I think its looking at what is happening now, its good we have trump who is not capable to destroy it but to show the weakness of the system. This system could be exposed. And also is a wakeup call. This is a lot of people thought that in this country, that the democracy is for granted, or all the rights that we have been enjoying more than two centerrers are for granted. I remember two years ago i was at bill mahr show and it tried to raid the issue about putin and threats and he was so dismissive, and he ended up this conversation by saying, look, wake me up when he takes over poland. Wow, i almost jump in my chair, responding that i heard similar comments eight years ago and we all know what was the outcome. And after november elections, bill has changed his views and became its a crusader, bashing putin and russian interference and i couldnt help tweeting that putin skipped over poland and went straight to wisconsin. And we are also its when i say praise trump is you can see the backlash against nationalism in europe. Because of trump i believe, the trumps inspected victory we saw the collapse of nationalists in holland, the ruling party that many believe was poised to win the elections were totally crashed. And it was crashed in the elects because 81 of the people voted. The moment you have a majority voting, you can see that they share a vote is not as impressive as it looks. Of course, france, that was a big setback for putin. They believed that they would winbot the hat le pen, and all of them talked about lifting sanctions and basically just bringing russia out of the cold and starting the new era of cooperation, and putin lost macron, won, think its the trump effect and a good moment to make another joke saying that putin bet on three card out of four lost his bet. Seems he was run out of trump cards. Okay, one more russia question. Marsha, the journalist who also had to leave russia for her safety, like you did, recently last week wrote an oped in New York Times and said we imagine the villains of history at cunning strategyis, brilliant master minds of horror. The happens because we learn about the from history book that imbue event width logic can making them seem predetermined. Historian cozy their readers bring an inavoidable bias to the story. If a historical event caused shocking destruction, the person ben the vent new terrifying as it is to contemplate the disasters of the in center it would be even more tripe you are frightening to imagine that humanity has stomached into it the darkest moments and says as someone would spend year studying are in putin and one of handful of journalists who have had unscripted conversations with him i can vouch for the fact the is a poor i educate, uninformed, incurious man who is ambition is vast his out of proportion to his newspapered offering the world. To the extent that he has any interest the business of governs it is his role on the world stage or on Russian Television that concerns him. Whether he is attending a summit, piloting a plane or lang gliding with siberian cranes it is the spectacle of power that interests him. When i read that, it made me wonder how you compare the persona of President Trump with Vladimir Putin. You speaking of trump as we just had a conversation before walking on stage i can repeat it here i think were lucky it was trump who actually exposed the weakness of the system. Man with no plan, with no strategy, and now we can deal with that because hes flawed and theres so many weaknesses in his administration, not even being formed properly, and i think it will help america to get stronger. Like it was virus. A virus attacks body that is weak immune system. So if it doesnt kill you, makes you stronger. I dont how comforting that i dont know how comforting this. Not a deadly virus, and these are putin and trump lets look at putin. Im not sure i agree entirely with what he said because in my former life, my professional chess career, there was the worth mistake one can make is snipped estimate your opponents. Underestimate putin is a big mistake. She is right describing him as poorly educated. Everything she said was right but he had instinct. The fact is that the man stays in power for 18 years, tells you that hes quite a savvy dictator. He knows how to manipulate people around. He won these battle inside russian among this cronies but he learned its a brand new world and you can use technology, instant vented in the free world, you can use the free speech, the free environment of the democracy to promote your own agenda. And he knows its not about substance. He can lie all the time. He sees the advantages. Not going to be called by a special counsel to testify under oath. He can do whatever. Its and later he can confess, i lied. It was crimea. How dare you. Im a man of peace. Next statement, three months later, oh, maybe there were some russians vacationings patriots. Yeah. Then few months later oh, how could we let these brave people fight alone. Some facet facet approval, then year later, brag, of court it was us and pinning medals on the Russian Troops part of the invasion. Now, in his mind he did everything right because he was a kgb guy and you all remember, even before becoming president when he was acting Prime Minister and meeting his former colleagues at kgb headquarter in moss scout, he said once kgb, always kbg and lying is part of his job he keeps lying and people are stick buying this. Still asking him, did you do that . No, i didnt. By the way, by saying i didnt, he just hes looking back at russian people and saying, of course i did it. This is they just dont understand. Lets sell this nonsense to them. Its all about his appearance, and as long as he is being treated as the most powerful man on the planet but the way two consecutive years, forbes magazine. That would count. The notes not because he read books like us, but because he has instincts that no one every in history attack a strong dictator. As long as dictator looks strong, will be no uprising. Let me get to the point about lies. 2010ed yesterday the point of modern prop began nice not just to misinform or push an agenda its to exhaust your Critical Thinking and to annihilate truth. I think that my concern is, how can our sort of Democratic Society withstand this chaos. What advice to you have to americans . First you should realize the threat does exist. Better late than never. And i also putin found out he weapon nice this fake history. Weaponize this fake news destroy. This start evidence in russia many years being by confronting russian opposition, creating a fake presence on the internet to lead people who are looking for alternative news, who were not happy with channel one, channel two, Propaganda Machine so it worked. Because if you show up on the internet and you look if you browsing there and you find a web site nat looks decent and has some news, but it also sells you not hundred percent lies as channel one but hat this own window where it has to make sure that while you buy the credentials of the web site, you wont notice that some of though elements of the story are fake news. Then putin went beyond russia to the russian to neighboring country, russianspeaking world and worked again. And they had two different versions of truth quote unquote. One was all the diagrams showing ukraine didnt miss out and the other talked about ukraine and jet fighter. Always at the same time. It doesnt matter. You can three this nonsense or this alternative to the public and somebody will buy it. It is danger and it will be more dangers than the propaganda because he doesnt have to tell you anything. They had a story to sell and to convince you it was for peace. They could support only political groups, left, far left, anarchist. Putin can go with far left, far right, anything that is status quo and spreads chaos is good for him. He knows how to weaponize everythi everything. They will attack and create problems for parties like germany, india, france and other countries. Spreading chaos with putins resource and totally being unprepared for this on slot worked for him. What is advice to ordinary americans . First of all, you understand this does exist. It is not a mind threat. I understand there is isis and other things but you look at putin as the main source of problems because of resources and his ability to attack you. You think putin is more dangerous we can spend time talking about conspiracy theories and how many kgb infiltrations there are and then you have many fuel dmand commanders that mysteriously came to syria. It is about relationships between assad and isis. By the way, russia never bombed isis. When you look at putins operation in syria, he bombed americanback rebels because assad is helping the great chaos. You have to fight back. There are many ways you can hurt putin. You have to make him look like a looser. There are many things you can do. Follow the money. Sanctions, paying attention to the top oligarch. As long as his wife can run his business from geneva, being denied access to europe. Big deal. And the same as macron who can say many tough things facing putin. But as long as business is being made with russia putin doesnt care. Words are cheap. Putins empire depends on the west complacement and willingness to make money no matter what. We have yet to see the proper response from the United States and europe making sure not so much for putin but for his cronies. What do you miss most about living in moscow . My mother. She lives in mosco. It was too hard for her to move outside russia. She has two sisters, nephew, nieces. I have my son from a previous marriage. A lot of relatives there. Now coming back and forth would be ideal, but for me now its oneway ticket. All right. Lets turn to deep thinking. Artificial intelligence is already changing so much about society, about work, and yet to get to the 2016 election again, we were having debates about, you know, coal mining jobs and Manufacturing Sector rather than how do we adapt to this future that is not just coming, its here. And youre an optimist, which is wonderful. I love that about the book, that you really think that if we combine machine power with humanpowered thinking, that thats going to be good for the future. Can you just talk to us a little bit about how you frame your thinking around Machine Learning Artificial Intelligence . The idea behind the book was to combine a few themes. One is it was my personal story. Its being part of this humanMachine Competition and what i learned from that. Another one was the story, its a history of humanmachine relations. And i thought it would be important to write it in just plain language, explaining that its a natural progress. And you have to demystify that, because theres so much panic based on this disfor thed version from hollywood distorted version from hollywood, the terminator, the matrix. Look at the problem objectively. And, of course, looking into the future and promoting the what i believe is the future scenario, human plus machine cooperation. And that was the outcome of my matches with deep blue when i just realized you cant beat them, join them. [laughter] but what it is, i think as you mentioned again the elections and politics, its always bothers me this kind of hypocrisy. Because machines for centuries, if not millennials, have been taking over all forms of manual labor. Now, when machines were taking over jobs from, you name it, manufacturing jobs, thats natural. Now the only difference is machines coming after people with college degrees, political influence and twitter accounts. [laughter] and its a big story. But again, in the history timeline, its just, its just another, its just a leap forward. And we just have to realize that many, i would say more, you know, aspects of cognition will be taken over by the machines. Now, of course its fear, oh, whats it going to do. Theres still so much room for us to amy our creativity with Machine Intelligence. Thats the subtitle of the book. Because what i learned, and i could try to put it in just internal formula. Anything that we do, and we know how we do this, machines will do better. Now, the emphasis is on we now how we do. Theres you can program. Codify. Something you can codify and send to the machine. Now, theres so much we are doing without knowing how we do that. And its not just simply emotional things, its just a lot of decisions were made to base on like parallel tracks. And machines always know the odds. They will not be able to make decisions, because they will have to compare incompatible things. Its, recently i just had a speech in amsterdam about ten days ago for a bunch of a. I. Experts, and i wanted to come up with something thats a vivid example. And tune make that precise calculation. The machines will never give you the right advice. And then to make the most efficient decision. And beyond that extreme situation and if you want to buy something but with a budget that is too expensive. And then you can add this little thing. And then to combine them with a decision end of that 20 or 25 years ago i am sure the grandchildren will think they were driving cars . The greatest cause of death. Is now that i think about it will happen. It is happening. We have to know what we want to do. And its about saving jobs for our because that flows down the cycle. Because before any technology would create jobs you will start a new cycle also with new sustainable jobs. We have to take care of our people especially my age or older to find out if there is enough opportunities and then try a to slow this down you are listening to the Commonwealth Club we have humanrights activist and former chess trivium. Gary kasparov of. It is happening. We have to know what we want to do. And its about saving jobs for our because that flows down the cycle. Because before any technology would create jobs you will start a new cycle also with new sustainable jobs. We have to take care of our people especially my age or older to find out if there is enough opportunities and then try a to slow this down you you are listening to the Commonwealth Club we have humanrights activist and former chess trivium. Gary kasparov of. So lets go to a question from the audience how did you get interested in playing chess . Nobody was there to treat this moment. [laughter] that is what i cannot tell you exactly when that happened. May be a winter evening 68 or 69 watching my parents. Many people remember the newspapers and i was captivated. So i was lucky son learning those basic rules and that was the moment. Talking about your match with deep blue a humans crack under pressure and machines dont humans can dream but machines cannot. But just one comment about the Machine Competition while it is useless to fight machines and every game eventually will be cracked with isnt about solving the game of chess is a that is more that all atoms in the solar system. But to make that first move it is about winning the game making less mistakes than your opponents. So we always make mistakes so that is why the pressure is too much so it doesnt tell you that were dealing with them because were dealing with them because that is is non intelligence as your alarm clock. [laughter] but seriously it was very so i war in europe not to expect paradise because we havent reached that level. That is our you say we have to combine human intelligence and compassion. That is indispensable and it is in just humans having passion but it is about purpose and machines have the best algorithms but they will never have a purpose and we do but we dont know what it is we will never share the secret with the machines. [laughter] klay spinning disk another question from the audience of falwell the delta and real to of Artificial Intelligence has arrived . That is the original idea of the father of Computer Science to say the moment that you cannot tell the machine from a human by asking a question that is artificial and intelligence but of the of their Founding Fathers by the way they were wrong but now we have these very Small Computers and play great chests but you cannot call that the intelligence. I dont know of it is a watershed moment to believe it is intelligent it is in just one day of the calendar talk about intelligence to leave the department of science so what is intelligence and when real looking for machines is it the result for the process . Perhaps it is that coming up with a resolve to make sure that happens in a way that we can understand it . So to take a similar path. I am not an expert but my opinion is we would get early incarnations of ai or any other chess engine you find out the origin of the decision but if they will ever tell you this so from proving so i would not be too fearful about it. Why do you think chalices is a powerful and in during metaphor . I was going to add in the i will not repeat it. This is one of those fake news stories. [laughter] here is another question i lose the game after a couple of moves. How do i control that . [laughter] your problem is you are way beyond jazz. [laughter] chess the idea is to win in a few games. Here is another question that live exhaust Critical Thinking were predictions for natural intelligence of Critical Thinking . Going back to politics politics, there is no easy answer because they look like real story is not a lie. So you should educate yourself so you can try to do is look at competing sources that is one of the ideas of the fake news avalanche from one or two new trusted sources. When we knew there is one way to brainwash with no information now is exactly the opposite. You cannot verify it. So look for competing sources and at the end of the day it should be your opinion. So try to make a distinction. So it is a story but has the algorithms but they will never have a purpose and we do but we dont know what it is we will never share the secret with the machines. [laughter] klay spinning disk another question from the audience of falwell the delta and real to of Artificial Intelligence has arrived . The ft curve that is the original idea of the father of Computer Science to say the moment that you cannot tell the machine from a human by asking a question that is artificial and intelligence but of the of their Founding Fathers by the way they were wrong but now we have these very Small Computers and play that the intelligence. I dont know of it is a watershed moment to believe it is intelligent it is in just one day of the calendar talk about intelligence to leave the department of science so what is intelligence and when real looking for machines is it the result for the process . Perhaps it is that coming up with a resolve to make sure that happens in a way that we can understand it . So to take a similar path. Opinion is we would get early incarnations of ai or any other chess engine you find out the origin of the decision but if they will ever tell you this so from proving so i would not be too fearful about it. Why do you think chalices is a powerful and in during metaphor . I was going to add in the western world if you look at japan or china. So being played around the world but the game in the Different Directions and those are very different from ours but and then to be treated. And even today ended is a history of almost 400 years you still follow the game . Then it is very active in this country and as an active part of the process with the blueprints and the schools as an important educational tool and what chess can do for that. And i could probably say after ted years with Young Americans there is the strongest in the world and between the u. S. And juniors and the rest of the world. Chess will always stay in my life. Butting my activities are connected to the game of chess. Another audience question can ai come to our rescue . A whole the answer is yes yes but you have to find a way. It doesnt just kill jobs but those opportunities are of those opportunities are of limited things that were abandoned because it was too risky like space exploration. Because there is such a powerful alliance. Do you play kine talk about the differences and similarities . I dont play but i know the rules. But you have to be very cautious comparing chess. But the head with those two matches and did go is very complicated maybe even more strategic the game goes longer and that being said im not in a position to judge but talking about absolute numbers but that is way below the Human Performance below the World Champion of course,. [laughter] intended it so complicated so for instance with that current World Champion i would bet on him saving the game. So it seems to exercise the same control of the game. Another question from the audience you think chess has been trivialized by computers . Would get the people playing chess today or 20 years ago the answer is no. It depends on what you expect yes it was trivialized to follow the matches of the top players watching every move they make was a blunder because even grandmasters follow the game. And were afraid to criticize us even if a mistake. You can hear people laughing around to show that it was a big blunder. So that even means not to be fooled by the magnanimous presence to follow the game. I read that the program did not know what to play a played random moo shu were taken aback of a logical move . I will not repeat it. This is one of those fake news stories. [laughter] here is another question i lose the game after a couple of moves. How do i control that . [laughter] your problem is you are way beyond jazz. [laughter] chess the idea is to win in a few games. Here is another question that live exhaust Critical Thinking were predictions for natural intelligence of Critical Thinking . Going back to politics politics, there is no easy answer because they look like real story is not a lie. So you should educate yourself so you can try to do is look at competing sources that is one of the ideas of the fake news avalanche from one or two new trusted sources. When we knew there is one way to brainwash with no information now is exactly the opposite. You cannot verify it. So look for competing sources and at the end of the day it should be your opinion. So try to make a distinction. So try to make a distinction. So it is a story but has the opinion inside. And the opinion they want you to buy. I dont like the term fake news as a practitioner i cannot comprehend. But that is the art of the problem with the do technology that allows of bad guys to promote the agenda to find those destructive evans. Here is another audience question what is truelove ai and data to target individuals . That gets to the weaponization. That is one of the key lessons. And also from the experiments. The machine will always be the machine. But the human behind the machine should be the greatest expert war over you would rather have a good operator. Explained that more. So in terms of ratings like those 28 cities it was 2861 and early 2800 the were talking about this category. To dave machines play at the rate of 2300. You dont have to be a very strong player. You would rather have a 2000 player to assist the machine. And the savings have been. Because it is very important for us to understand the role. And we know exactly what we can add. And also with the of fake news or propaganda a very important battlefield where that perception becomes reality. Another audience question control a wall street will be led takeover the government as well . I am not sure about wall street. And to those algorithms. But with my limited knowledge of those certain groups they used that combination but speaking about the future looking into the distant future, you have to look at the current moment to make sure you were not jumping over to think about the strategy of the end game. So my answer is so instead of panicking about too much Artificial Intelligence we should be truly concerned of the lack of intelligence of the people. [laughter] this is also a question from the audience. There is a lot of concern expressed rand to talk about that some people have proposed that basic and come so people can deal with the fact that ai is taking over so many jobs. I would said go beyond that. The best scientific problem or social problem. And guess these are happening in also that people live longer with better medicine but the more jobs that are entering the market that allows them to learn. So with that comprehensive solution think about people and how we integrate back into the world. We have to make sure to find something for them to do even with more resources. It is about finding the way the peoples in their forties or fifties or sixties some jobs will be lost but some opportunities will be found. So the worst thing we can do were doing. Absolutely. At this same time to debate Climate Change and saving jobs setter clearly and contradiction. Say something that is very under pressure and were under a lot of pressure right now. Solyndra these debates we should be having . So lets lets start with this metaphor to explain certain political moves in that annoyed me. Now dictators dont play chess because the game of strategy you dont know what your opponent is planning. A metadata is a level playing field. And the cable they can enjoy the advantage and with Public Opinion but to what joy that strategic advantage , it is about building that strategy for the future with the president or a senator so far these political debates are all a round of the shortterm or with those midterm elections that is not the way to move forward such a combat that comprehensive vision of the future. Because we can make it happen and looking for a long term Strategic Solutions to the problems that are popping up all the time. I will take the opportunity to quote from your book that you trust job people growing up with technology to be smart about this and your advice is a hope youll take this as an invitation to take an active role to create the future you want to seek. I a appreciated to and how that changes that in the wrong direction. A kid to do Gary Kasparov of. [applause] former world the chess champion and author of the new book and keep thinking. A deep thinking also thinks for your great questions. Please remain seated and staff will provide details i am Vice President of news and that this is what we are doing. How do we bring back coal jobs . We cannot. Trying at the same time to debate Climate Change and saving jobs that are clearly in con tradititr contradiction with goal. You Say Something hopeful and that is we do our best thinking under pressure. What are the Big Questions you think we should be asking . Chess has been used to do political move. I heard during some of the moments in syria that obama played checkers and putin played chess. That annoyed me because i had to defend the integrity of my game. It is a level playing field. Short term resolutions and tactical moves. The game where they can enjoy the advantage of not being constrained by the taliban, by the free press, by the Public Opinion. Democracies should enjoy their advantage. It is beyond the president or senator or whoever is behind this plan. So far, there is the political debates that are being centered around and what do we do now. And looking for long term strategi strategies. We are just about out of time and i hope you will sake an active role. Coming from a communist countr country, i appreciate it. Thanks to the Human Rights Foundation and i want to thank our audience on Radio Television and the internet for and all your great questions. We want to remind everybody copies of the book are on sale in the lobby and we will be pleased to sign the books on stage following the program. If you will all remain seated immediately following the program a member of the clubs staff will provide details on the signing. I am holly the Vice President of news and now this meeting of the commonwealth california, the place where you are in the know, is adjourned. You are watching booktv. Television for serious readers. You can watch any program you see online at booktv. Org. Shelby steele, your book, shame. Where did the title come from . I couldnt find that single thing. Finally i came upon with my wifes help, the word snahame a that word seemed to bring together the themes i was trying to