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Shakespeare theatre company. Thank you for joining us. [applause] thank you for joining us for tonights Barn Association discussion. Tonights discussion is shakespeare and the rules of war from athens to aleppo. Now, at this point i would like to remind everyone to silence their Electronic Devices and video and photography of this to start. At this point it is my honor to introduce tonight moderate steven and ryan. Hes a member of our board of trustees as well as the Bar Association and has led our annual fundraiser for many years. Hes the head of Government Strategy at mcdermitt and previously served as the general counsel to the u. S. Senate committee on Governmental Affairs alongside the honorable. In addition, he has served as Deputy Council of the president s commission on organized crime, and directing investigations and other criminals during the reagan administration. As part of his deep commitment to pro bono work, he he has representative operation hope, a Financial Literacy group for the past decade. It is my honor to welcome steve. [applause] thank you, very on trent very much. Its a pleasure and honor tonight to bring this group of speakers to you. Youre going to have a great evening. Its part of our classical theater that we try and unite current events, like thinking about the rules of war with the ideas that shakespeare expressed in his place, thank you again, everybody for being a part of our group. So, tonight the first panelist that id like to introduce is my favorite author bernard cornwall. [applause] so, what you you say about a guy whos written 60 bucks, sold 30 million copies and he is your favorite author. You tell people that if you havent read about richard and the napoleonic wars and if you havent seen this play by sean bean then you havent lived yet. Bernard began in the tv business at the bbc and his books had been turned in the some of the most notable productions. He was originally denied a green card for entry into United States. [laughter] but since then he has spent a good deal of time with us and has become one of the most successful and loved authors. His stories are really primarily about english history and his current is the last king and in our family we fight over the book when it comes in, about who gets read it first. Hopefully, youll see that on the bbc television. Importantly, to our work here at the theater, mr. Cornwall is continuing to write and currently writing his book about the first production of shakespeares midsummers night dream. Im sure well work that into night notwithstanding that its not about war. So, bernard, thank you for being here. [applause] our next guest is doctor gail miros who really we should call general miros because he was a general for decades before he became a phd. Thank you. [applause] so, general is the president s first Senate Confirmed associate director of National Intelligence to the Intelligence Community chief of Information Officer and internation executive for the director of National Intelligence. Thats actually what his title is. [laughter] he actually had to leave his uniform behind to become part of the white house staff. Hes also internationally respected as an expert on leadership, strategy, cyber security, telemedicine, intelligence and military matters. While on active duty on 911, general was in command of the airspace over north america. So, hes the first of two actual warriors that we will put on here, in a minute. He also served as the chief of Information Officer for three Major Air Force commands, that unified military commits. At one point he controlled all the satellites that orbit. Some which we can talk about. [laughter] he became the first chief informational officer you get the pattern of this. In desert storm, and in other wars with United States that bought hes had Actual Experience with the decisions about who to target, what the package looks like, how to justify it, and how to think about it. Were really uniquely pleased to have general with us tonight. [applause] so, now, on the artistic side of this group we have the real pleasure to introduce to you one of the hottest young directors in america, the full thomas. Now, one of the great things about theater is because joe pat gave michael kahn the gig of running a classical play in new york at a very young age. He took the same thing of picking out the hottest young directors and bringing them to work on classical place so, lisa will be directing on may 1. I asked her and she said no you dont sound the theater person. [laughter] lisle was born and raised in south africa during the apartheid era. That experience, obviously, is something to reflect on today. Her family moved to massachusetts when she was 15 and she received her from the smaller known collagen of Brown University and the trinity repertoire. Shes directed theater all over the United States and shes known not just for classic plays but for bringing out the personal experience and stories of people to light. She believes theater should be mean fall. Dont we all . She believes she can change the audience. One of her ladies productions, eclipse, written by dan tell the story of five liberian women who try to survive toward the end of the second liberian war. This production actually became the first ever, all female cast play written and directed by a female premier on broadway. I will pause for applause on that. [applause] last summer, she made history as the first woman of color to have a tony award nomination for best director for production of the eclipse. Shes now in rehearsal for the play and her conception of Shakespeares Macbeth will talk about that a little bit tonight. You have got to come and see it. Anyway, thank you very much for taking time for rehearsals to come tonight. [applause] this is a starstudded panel but here comes the big stud. [laughter] and that the honorable ryan zinke of the secretary of the interior. [applause] so, heres Teddy Roosevelts roosevelts successor as the owner of public grants. This man controls one fifth of the landmass of the United States and he has a property that he is a controller of thats 12 times up. He used to serve as a member of house of representatives and immediately became a star in the hill. We still have the pictures of that. He went to a very famous literary school, buds, basic underwater demolition and became a seal seal. There are many books coming out of that and he has a terrific book that im going to recommend to you any moment. He was a navy seal for over 20 years. He deployed and carried out. [applause] the mission of our country and he directed the training of the seals and he trained the men who killed Osama Bin Laden and carried out all of the things that were necessary to protect us. So, ryan zinke, not only is a warrior for training warriors who still protect us today. At football. [applause] at football, he was the center of the oregon ducks before the docs were really. They were really close. [laughter] i have to Say Something that was improper. Many women fans thought he had the best but. [laughter] with that you have a warrior was is now a member of the cabinet of United States and hes taken time to be with us tonight to talk about this. I want to say i want all of you to read all 60 of bernards books. Now, because hes one of my favorite authors, thats a conflict of interest by the way i used to but my favorite author will ask him to leave off this discussion about shakespeare and the rules of war at this time and bring them forward tw to ou. I had the same i know he will Say Something utterly entertaining and you will love it. Thank you. I dont have a lot to say that shakespeare and will store. Soar. Have a great evening. [laughing] spirit he does mention come he doesnt call the rules of war. He calls it the laws of arms. At the end of henry the fifth county talking about something thats happened on the battlefield. He said its express against the lord of arms. What was it that shakespeare saw was if you look at the prospects of what you said it, it seems obvious. Henry the fifth was just killed. An incredibly brutal passage of the battle. The french attack in two ways. Both ways had been repelled. Many prisoners have been taken. Prisoners were kept for ransom. They were sold behind the english lines. Suddenly a third line seems to go out to advance. What henry says to prisoners who havent had the hands tied, will join the battle again by attacking his been from the back. He ordered them killed. That isnt what he is complaining about. Thats a good thing. What he is complaining about is [inaudible] right around the back and they invaded the english camp. Imagine to steal all the crown jewels and they killed the pages. That is against the law of art. I think something will probably keep coming up this evening because how do you impose law on warfare . What by the very nature is lawless. We educate our children and say thou shalt not kill. And then we train them to be killers. Western civilization im sure come others too. Way back in the 12th century tried to draw a distinction between what he called homicide. Homicide is illegal. Its murder. Mala side was killing somebody who is evil. That runs all the way through law. You can a soldier killed, who can they not . What shakespeare is saying is you can kill someone who [inaudible] is that a law of war . Youre a lawyer. This is the only panel that has one lawyer. I brought reinforcement. [laughing] its still pretty remarkable not one, money, you have more degrees than anybody ive ever met but not one with a law degree. The very first attempt to codify the laws of war and ensure, it was drawn up in the United States 185253. He taught at columbia, south carolina, then moved to columbia. When he fought at waterloo he was a 21yearold boy from prussia and his Sergeant Major was a woman. And she had three decoration of bravery. Everybody in the army knew she was a woman. This is terrific and ship all the way through waterloo. Lever two up a coat of war which is very much the ancestor of the geneva code today. You cannot kill noncombatants. You mustnt use poison. You mustnt kill the wounded. Im not condoning the story by the something in it which it has relevance to shakespeare. The British Marine royal marine sergeant found guilty of murder because he had shot a taliban prisoner that conviction turned into manslaughter and think is being released from jail. Im not condoning what the man dead. I dont know details of it, but im sort of proud to tell you that his last words to the doomed man were hey, mate, its time you shuttled off with mortal coil. [laughing] well [laughing] its true. I told you would be entertaining. Hello. So, for all kinds of reasons this is probably my seventh production that dealt with war on stage. And possibly because of the way i grew up, possibly because the way i came from an actress family during the struggle, its something i spent a lot of time in my childhood thinking about and approving. I have directed a play which took place and what had to be staged was government soldiers and two different kinds of soldiers as well as civilians and miners all in one space. That it clips, was only five women, but the skills with which it was written really got a sense of the larger civil war all around you. Ive also done a play in europe which is about Doctors Without Borders and the experiences that they had. It just seems be something that a keep coming back to. So when michael asked me to direct macbeth, my job as an artist and as a director is to do test analysis, get into the mind of the writer, the playwright and try to understand what he or she is trying to talk about. And then think for me, think about who my audience is and think about especially with classics how can i get this story into their life so theyre not sitting back and watching a historical experience, like wash over them. It has to feel immediate for me. I dont see any purpose in going to sit and watch a piece. So after i excavated macbeth, the fact that i was doing in washington d. C. , and i thought that what macbeth is about that ive never seen when i seen a production is actually about greece, and grieving for ones country. And that is certainly something i can relate to. There were books written about my country, books called cry, beloved country. And the grief had the same field, having a dictator, tyrant in power, and the question of what has to happen to leaders, to citizens, to make them take up arms in their own country and fight civil war. That to me is the center of this play. And every scene that sort of come every scene of violence is about a father losing a son or a mother losing a daughter, or a child. The message that since to me from shakespeare is that he is trying to show the personal cost of war. We come from a country that loves to glamorize violence, that was to glamorize war. So i took that challenge from shakespeare and i took it very personally. So there are strands of this production of macbeth that are really about what it feels like to be inside of a civil war and what the personal cost of war is and what grief for your country is. [applause] cell in washington by the way you are not allowed to have a member of the cabinet lot lead off, but ryan zinke is actually quite a humble man and said he would go third tonight. So mr. Secretary. Its truly an honor to be with you. My background, as commander. Upfront i was never the best jumper or diver, explosive expert but i know who was. I was also a commander of special forces in iraq. So my experience is a little different. I dont think we glamorize war, at least not those who have fought. I think the decision to go to war for those who have fought is a solemn one. I like many of you are a father and i dont want my kid ever to go into war and less they can win. And the rules of engagement are part of it. But i think we owe it to our kids as we send them in the interest of our country, want to make the decision if we have to go to war, but you knew the right equipment, the right training, the right rules of engagement. And i would say you would add one more industries and conflict we have been in battle for longer period of our nations history by almost twice with the right pause. I will explain that. But the rules of engagement today are much different. Seals look at threat, nonthreat. A threat is clear, and cagey. Eliminate the threat. But what is a threat and asymmetrical warfare works is that a person with a gun . Is at the person with a cell phone in the corner . Is it a person that is supplying the ammunition, the intelligence . Its a difficult process to sort, select as an example in this room. If you were to walk in to an iraqi location where theres a group of people, how do you sort of select who is who . How do you sort of select in this room if you have 20 noncombatants, five combatants. Are the combatants hardened or not . How do you do it . And ultimately that task comes to judgment. Thats why we rely on our nations best. It is a judgment call. Example, if our rules of engagement dont allow us to fight, and in the case of afghanistan theres been plenty of cases where individuals go out, they are engaged in combat. There is in a c130 overhead which is a gunship. As for direct support and they are engaged with combat and they dont get the support. The reason is because someone is making a judgment call on whether engaging that a c130 will lead over casualties. In fact, if the enemy is firing from a building within the building, are they in fact, in the combatants . But when you are there and you are being fired upon and your teammates are getting hit, to not have the equipment available to you, i can tell you, if they cant depend on going out, and all these operations are wellplanned and they have their Quick Reaction force when you go out. They will timely. They get in trouble, how fast can the calvary get there. Do they have artillery . But if they go out and get engaged with the enemy and they cannot get aid, they are smart, they will not go out. Or they will turtle up. When th they do question mark wt heavy. They cant rely on any other force to render aid. So ill go back to the most important part is you got to trust your people. And thats where training comes in. Nobody that i know of thats fighting wants war. Is it because weve been engaged in combat the longest. In our nations history . And my daughter, i told her to think. Dont join the navy and dont marry a navy seal. [laughing] she did both. Shes a navy diver. She married a navy seal. Hes a fine young man. Hes a senior chief. He has gone to war at least 12 deployment. 12 times. Normal to him is not here. Normal to him is over there. Because he has spent more time over there than he has here. So how does that affect him . I need to go to the Grocery Store with them because hes aggressive behind the wheel. But the pause, because when these troops are coming back and where fighting so much for so long, they forget about normalcy in our society. They become hardened. Their judgment between threat and nonthreat. Thats why we fight over there so it doesnt come to hear. So im glad to be with you, but i can tell you this. In my experience you should never ever engage in warfare and unless you get the troops what they need to win. Your sons and daughters deserve it. Unfortunately, we find we face an enemy that is determined, that plays by no rules of humanity when you burn pilots in a cage alive, and you behead children this is what we face. Its ugly. So with that, steve. [laughing] thank you. That was uplifting. [applause] and now if you really wanted to see what it looks like from outer space, you could ask dale. Dale, could you reflect as an air commander your counterparts . Someone who shakespeare couldnt contemplate, talk to us about the air commander and the decisions that a professional soldier like you as that are different. Just think of me as he saved the least for last, and im the pause before we have q a. [laughing] it is, i am pleased to be here. But what the secretary talked about had a lot to do with when you are i do i, but the rules of war, the rules of engagement i to i extend everybody who was in support of it as well, or somebody whos detached. Ill give you when i conclude my remarks ill give you a real instance about how rules of engagement in fact, change how we fight, change how we fight even today. Even though it was 21 years ago. The element of rules of engagement are not that old. In fact, they are an outgrowth of the korean war. Because the joint chiefs of staff to get out that weve got a new framework for conduct of operations, combat operations. You know, the idea of war and world war ii and previous instances is going to the idea of limited war, the idea of all kinds of other things in the shadow of the cold war. And so i think its important to realize the basis of rules of engagement. Theyve got a political purpose. Theyve got a military purpose and they have a legal purpose. They also have two expand all the way to the people i represent down to all levels, ranks, services, to the people that secretary represents, folks on the ground. So rules of engagement are classified. You may or may not find that hard to believe, but large part are classified because a lot of them are related to tactics, as in what weapons you can use, what targets weapons can be associated with. To include what we can rely on from space. Because remember the purpose of the rules of engagement, a political purpose, military purpose and it has a legal purpose. And every rule of engagement has to extend to those. Another thing thats a little bit different is has evolved since 1986 is that there are standing rules of engagement that exist all the time and apply to all military people, whether they are engaged in combat or not. Oftentimes we think, well, there is rules of engagement for people in theater in southwest asia involved in this operation or that operation, but every military person in service has a set of peace time sustaining rules of engagement, which i think you might find interesting. They are, you can protect, you can use deadly force to protect yourself from your unit and your different. You can use deadly force to protect any pows enemy you can use deadly force to protect civilians, noncombatants and also designated properties such as the red cross, churches, hospitals and such. Those permeate all the rules of engagement that the nicest military fights with. The thing to remember is that not all countries go by the same rules of engagement. Not all countries necessarily see the International Rules of law, by the way, most of those International Rules of law stem from the creation of United Nations in 1949. 1949. When you hear phrases like law of armed combat, that refers to the United Nations, United Nations type of things. During the q a, if somebody without looking on your google together when the last time denies states declared war and he was against, ill buy you a drink afterwards. [laughing] so the element of rules of engagement are very, very important, at the end of becoming a bible that every military person has in combat. So i will run through very quickly one of my early times in rules of engagement, and youll see how complicated it can get. And again thank you political, military and legal. And so this has to do with the balkans. Late 1996. And we are looking to introduce for the first time in largescale combat drones. I think Everybody Knows what a goat is. The nickname of the drone at the time was the predator, by the way, of the head States Air Force was about to retire its last predator in about a month or so. Be replaced with a new drone. In air force you dont ever want to call it a drone. Its a remotely piloted vehicle, just so you know. And so we were deployed under a Coalition Force with a nato flag. And so were introducing a different weapon platform here now, wasnt going to carry a bomb or a bullet or it was going to carry cameras. But we first had to go through the element of making sure that the rules of engagement could be adjusted under nato rules to allow for a platform that have never been deployed by nato before. So again, think of those three elements of political, military and legal. So after we go through that, we still cant get it deployed because we are looking at basing out of italy and weve already exceeded the number of troops that treaty says we can have stationed in italy at any one time. So my team got the task of figuring out how to deploy drones in combat without having people that either operate it look at the intelligence of potential even today to pull the trigger, not stationed in the theater. So think of the treaty applications that we had to do connect satellites back to Beale Air Force base, thats in central california, and so for one of the first times we are actually executing combat operations from california over the balkans in eastern europe. But that still didnt cover all the rules of engagement, because then there is the element of what are we allowed to share of the platform and what troops can it support, and can it be you with all the . Does it have to be usled . You get the idea. And so the business about legality and all that, and he can remember, nato doesnt necessarily have the parameters of rules of engagement. The United States does. Neither do come at the time, 16 individual countries. So the rules of engagement in essence become the bible about the conduct of combat operations in the modern era. And i look forward to your question. What did you all do today . [laughing] bernard, lets talk about Richard Sharp and the characters that you created, and their sense of the rules of war. Would those people recognize ryan zinke . Your characters have to get in and rules of engagement is to win. The important thing is to be on the winning side. He wouldve been tried as a war criminal. Thats what he said. I dont think he was. Im sure you dont think it was either. When it comes to sharp, there were rules of engagement. Innocents are busy if youre in a battle, you can shoot of the french, which is always a good thing. [laughing] the duke of wellington was incredibly clever mentor one of the last things he wanted in the battle of 1840 was to invade france. He really doesnt want the french has a view to write up against his neighbor the way the spanish conducted the guerrilla war against the french. What the president is the french had treated stolen food, killed animals. They treated the population incredibly bad. They turned them into enemies. The duke was determined this is not happening in france. He knew the one thing you had to do was you had to buy food. If you went to a village you bought the food that you got from the villager. Sharp was a french hasnt [inaudible] the duke, quite true, he said in an order out to the army and he said i want every convicted forger in the ranks. [laughing] forty man turned up. And he gave them a whole lot of english and spanish and portuguese money and said turn it into french money, which they did and it worked like a charm. [laughing] and the french peasantry did not fight against the British Forces and he did not suffer guerrilla war. But again this is very different compared to the problems that you face, which is former collocated. When we talk about protecting civilian life, that has always been true. Going back to early medieval times, it was a crusade. It was led by [inaudible] it was brutal, bloody, horrible. All happening to get in the of france in the pyrenees. Finally determined the march had enough and he said you cant do this to all towns, whole villages. Weve got to stop and sort them out. He said no, no, no. Kill them all. God will know the difference. Thats actually very good theology. Youre right. Youre a good christian. What you complaining about . You go to have an early. We know its wrong. Its horrible. In the 15th century the english the french would come out and fight. So you went up to destroy whole districts, burned the farms, destroyed these vineyards, anything to do so much economic damage, poison the well that would bring an army to fight you. So that distinction i made earlier with shakespeare and henry the fifth, that it was against the law of arms to kill those who are not combatants. Thats not been true throughout history. In the 30 years war the Second World War with area bombings, women and children become targets. Im not sure, i think a split web rules of engagement. After all, what do we fight for . We are fighting for civilization. Where fighting for a way of life. Where fighting for the rule of law. And if we dont fight for the rule of law we are barbaric. When you see what isis is doing to its prisoners, to the women they capture, to the slaves, that is why we are fighting back where fighting against that. When not fighting against religion. When the fighting against where fighting at this point for civilization and of the rule of law. So yeah, we have to be lawabiding in the way we fight. Thithis is a terrible burden pun our troops. They fight, they get loaded, they risk their life. Then we have lawyers. [laughing] okay, bernard, thank you. [laughing] how do you as a director bring the arts to address the depth and the loss that you talked about in your of macbeth which i thought was very important in movie and i hadnt heard you say that yet. This is really quite interesting. What role could arts play in an era of this kind of complexity where you have someone killing civilians with sarah and gas, where we have people who cant be trusted with Nuclear Weapons, obtaining them. How does the arts fit into this . What do you say to the world that has gone crazy like this . Yeah, its a good question because its times like this that artist always ask themselves why am i an artist . When a society is in crisis, isnt this the best i can do with my time . But audiences continue to flock to see, to look at stories about their lives and about our society and i think why people cant make sense of whats happening in our world, story time becomes essential and you just have to come for me its really just about looking at the Big Questions of the moment, like shakespeare did and trying to tease out the things that will help people in this moment make sense of their lives and make sense of the chaos, i guess. You know, when i was putting together the ideas for mac beth, one of the things you do is, as a director of classics is to personalize. One of the questions about the show, what are the witches in, because i wasnt going to do a period piece. Its not what i do. Sorry. One of the witches today, someone whos going to whisper in the air of a general, of a thing, and suggest that they should be king. The power of suggestion to an ambitious and slightly weak leader, who benefits from that . So as i kind up with this project to get i kept coming back to the question of the witches. Magic and that power of suggestion and changing the course of the countries future, coming out of the civil war and finding peace, and then started another civil war. A power grab. And what i only can do is apply my own experience, and that is a person who is from the continent of africa. And in my experience usually theres a western power that wants our stuff. [laughing] are diamonds, our oil, and they need a leader that will help them get that stuff. Im grossly oversimplifying, but its real. Ive traveled all over the continent of africa for work and for other reasons. And thi this is a thing that ner stops. No corporations getting access to resources at the expense of citizens of that place. So as i started to put this production of macbeth together, i place it in north africa. It became a central focus for us, and the witches became representations of foreign interest. Because that is who would profit from influencing a military leader that was extremely ambitious. And as we started with this project, myself and the desired i hired as a consultant in terms of the violence and the war component, something really interesting came out and rebuilt the production around that. But what was also, part of the reason i did it is because you have child soldiers. You have highly trained soldiers because of rebel soldiers. There so many Different Levels of discipline and brutality going on at once in our present life. And i was interested in finding a way to talk about all elements of that, and actually macbeth created an opportunity for that. Even though that description sounded simple, im actually interested in the complexity and im interested in showing, because there are no good guys and are no bad guys. Theres only what are the motives. Every single actor on my stage, i have too, went to talk about her character as if they are good guys so that they can connect. Ironed sure you all the aspects of it. We have to show every Single Person with compassion because thats how we get to complexity. So, you know, this question is we live in a world full of chaos. For a couple of hours that you come to the theater or would you watch a film or you read a book, you could potentially track a person or a few people through the beginning, middle and end of that story and feel maybe a little bit of order which will help you put the life that were living right now into some kind of perspective. Perhaps help you cope, i guess. Ryan zinke, you train the man who killed Osama Bin Laden, rob oneill, many of the other seals were on that team. Would you talk about how the laws of war impacted that mission and what your thoughts are on that . Well, a lot of it has changed and is technology. I came to the seals in 1985 when many people didnt know what acl was. And when i came in, the ability to remotely look at operations, to remotely make decisions, was really nonexistent. The first time it really happened was bosnia. But when you add surveillance tools when you have and that allows your commanders to look at you on the ground. If its a high priority target, dont move satellites over. They will watch it realtime. Whos making the decisions to engage . Is it the individual on the ground . Is that the individual in the helicopter . Is it a commander . Where con is that the Theater Command or is it all the way back . And your perspective from a person whos been there, your perspective and youre on the ground taking fire is a little different than when youre in the white house, in the situation room. Then you get a judgment call all the way out. You have a vehicle coming in. High rate of speed. Are you getting engaged or not . Whos making the call . And when do you engage, when it gets to the gate . In the case of some recent activity, the engagement, well, we know they are bad, just how bad are they . And when are you going, when they shoot, is that when our kids are out there, when they shoot at us, then we can shoot at them . Again, from the ground perspective its too late. The other thing is, is whats changed is electronic eavesdropping. Its been in the news a lot, about the ability to eavesdrop, and on who come and who makes the call. Is it englishspeaking . For a while we only looked at foreign websites and foreign languages, because if you are an english speaking, it could be an american. 90 of the world speaks on platforms that are englishbased. Most people have a cell phone in here. Most people have a smart phone. You might be amazed how those can be manipulated. When youre taking a picture of, how do you know that picture gets captured in your camera . How do you know tha the picturen youre looking at it doesnt have the ability to be transmitted in the airways and so people can look at not only you but who you are taking a picture of wax sociability and the control of it is whats a change. Those are societal questions that we have to ask. At what point are we going to mitigate risk . What point is liberty going to prevail . Whos going to make the call . What checks and balances are there rob oneill in that operation was watching. It was carefully orchestrated. Build the craven was as good as our come also a seal was the commander. It was nearly flawlessly executed, but they are trained over and over and over and over again. And they said, in my opinion, the nations best, if not one of our nations best forces on it. That had not only strategic implications but it had National Implications not only for us finally giving him but also a signal that we are willing to go and take risks if the target is as important as it was. But again, i think the point of this section is the remoteness and our ability to watch things so far is not free. It has consequences. In my opinion, always the checks and balances are important. One branch, one unit should control the power, should have the power without a second look. Because it can go awful deep, far beyond war in everyday life where we have to be very careful about it. Im about to ask dale the last question and then its going to be time for your questions, so if you take out the cards you have and write down your questions. We will be squinting we will be streaming your questions because youre that type of audience. [laughing] in about ten minutes our staff will walk at own take this from you. If you could in the next couple of minutes write any question that you have. You contracted to a panelist and maybe will do that or maybe we will throw your card on the floor. But we will ask some really good questions that you ask. Asked. So, dale, curtis what i took is bombers over tokyo and blue the city apart, not with a Nuclear Weapon but with conventional weapons so the point where in max Hastings Book on the end of that war he said a human remains blown 5000 feet in the air into the bellies of the airplanes. So that was the war the last time somebody flew airplanes into things that belonged to us. We had 9 11. And now we have this era of the ability of everyone in the world to actually watch whats going on and what happened from Satellite Photos they could take the next day of an event. What are your reflection as a Commanding Officer about airpower in this new era . The only word sticking to me particularly as suspect i was talking was that great military strategist, tactician and stolid 13 tv show, sergeant schultz, i know nothing. [laughing] the thing that desert storm really kind of got people to believe or think is, is that you can watch every single expenditure or munition. And that was larger done because of airpower in space. That was largely done because the cameras that were in the front of the weapons that actually directed that munition to a particular spot, cornet coordinate. The United States military can engage in a target from some meaning number of miles up in space to several miles under the ocean. All we need is a grid coordinate. Once United States motor is given that grid coordinate, that grid coordinate will blow up. Thats a tremendous responsibility. And technology is what allows us to do that. And so its very, very incumbent that when you train people in a system like that, that a checklist follows. That the rational human beings with epic morals and that they are continually monitored for their ability to exercise balanced judgment. So i got firsthand experience in this after 9 11. Okay, so i often hypothesized by the way, did you say i had ten minutes . No. Two minutes and you are one minute in. [laughing] but on the tenth of september, 2001, if i told you the unite Chinese Military was planning on shooting down civilian airliners over the United States, you wouldve had us courtmartialed and put in jail. But on 12 september 2001, you are perfectly willing to let us do that. And so, so what affects folks that deal with air force engines like that, it is you go to work and you deal with lifeanddeath matters decisions, and then you walk out the door and you go to your kids soccer game. And then we experienced that for probably the first time in the balkans when we had people stationed on the boot of italy. They would fly over the balkans, come back, go to their kids soccer games. The mental gymnastics that you to think about and how you prepare and train your people to understand how to compartmentalize in the right way and use the right moral judgment is absolutely crucial. And its just as crucial for the person sitting back in the United States looking at targets somewhere else in the world as it is for the people on the ground. But like the secretary said, the perspective is different when youre in the field. Im going to come back, bernard, we will get the audience questions now. What would shakespeare think about a panel like this tonight . Would shakespeare just say i wish to write plays, i tried to make money, i had a very nice life. [inaudible] romeo and juliet. He didnt know what he was talking about. Laurence olivier said that human [inaudible] the running hamlet at the moment and not less than four hours. Add all, my god. Sorry, what were we talking about . [laughing] so youre writing a book about shakespeare now and about that play, and youre getting inside the head of shakespeare to bring them to us the way im really not. Its really an impossible thing to do, like getting inside the head of mozart or jane austen. It so special. Im getting inside the head of his brother. [laughing] he had three brothers and one of them is [inaudible] because he had a birth date and knew nothing else. Actually nothing. We know he lived. Im not tied down for making what shakespeares plays. I actually think my fans will hate this book because nobody dies and there are ferries. [laughing] what about the battle . There are no battles. But there are plenty of the ferries. Im waiting for the cards of your questions, but greg copley, stand up. Great is a, a global strategist, and two more in your email those of you about a ticket from us are going to receive a paper that we commissioned. This production is really pretty slanted. We have a famous global strategist whos written a paper for you on shakespeares time that i think will actually hopefully cap off the experience better tonight, and im waiting for those questions. Anytime now. [applause] there he is. Thank you so much. Now. [laughing] so, try to, the for you is, partly, secretary zinke, are you impressed or inspired by a particular shakespeare play . And would you bring the president to our theater . [laughing] mid Summer Nights dream. Of course. I can tell you the pricing is a good boss. He doesnt micromanage. He gives me a call once a week and asks me what i need. Hes a good boss. He knows our country. Im a Teddy Roosevelt, i like you, but this piece of history we are going through, we better figure it out as a country. We are all better in the same boat. We can debate about which direction we are going to go, but we need to be in the same boat. And im a Teddy Roosevelt guy and we are all americans first. Before were anything else, we are all americans. I think the president would be delighted there we go. There we go. [applause] so this is a gathering of lawyers, some want to celebrate tonight the elevation to chief judge United States court of general claims, judge braden was whos here with her clerks. I cant see, judge. Where are you . [applause] of there you go. The judge product legitimate so they are only working a half day today. They were able to knock off at seven. [laughing] she said that she is a huge fan of your books. [laughing] there you go. While [laughing] im going to actually hand this to you. Would you read the question and then comment on it . In one of your tales [inaudible] all my god. [laughing] i mean, there is [inaudible] and old english phrase which basically states this carries on anchorage right through to shakespeare we had the wheel of fortune. And people did believe in a sense your paper this is not the same as predestination but there is a sense of that, that you are helpless. Today we can control our fate much, much better. What people worry about and a sense of why did the river flood . Why did a child die . Why is there a disease which you have no more control . We have more control nowadays. Not total control. And so why . Probably for the same reason you say prayers. You are trying to control things, for the same reason you consult a wise woman, same reason that you knock on wood. Because youre trying to control things. [inaudible] so here, i entered your question. Heres a good question but this was particularly good. In shakespeare bad things happen to good soldiers. A fellow, caesar, someone whos read the canon picked this seems to apply a sense of dollars in the scales of justice. Do the rules of war and rules of engagement in some way take their personal responsibility out of war fighting . How about we hear from a military leader and then liesl about that. General. [laughing] true passing of the book. [laughing] thats an interesting supposition. But i would counter that again most of the rules of engagement are not necessarily prescriptive. They are guidance yes, there are things in there that you cant engage the target, you cannot engage that target. But there are also judgments held. When you take the judgment completely away from a soldier, sailor, airman, coast guardsmen, marine, they then, your entire structure becomes, too many on your ability to preplan and pretill everything that could possibly happen, and again the first rule of combat is stay away from stupid. We are not perfect in being able to see what all will happen in combat. We are not able to perfectly judge all what our people if they speak were not able, if we were, then i might subscribe to your idea that the rules of Engagement Ring of us from that decision. But thats not how they are constructed. For instance, the element of selfdefense, selfdefense extend to other people other than just your person. So what judgment or factors to use in determining whether the use of deadly force is really in selfdefense or not . So i dont see that the rules of engagement and i have written many, ive lived by many, and i have read a lot of rules of engagement. And they are not so prescriptive in every detail that the responsibility is ever taken away or the accountable is ever taken away from the individual at the point of execution. So liesl and bernard, in times of war, shakespeares plays and speeches have been repeatedly sent to soldiers and sailors and quota by our president s. In your opinion or experience, could you stand one more time hearing the refuge of really poor chaplains over our most Wonderful National cemetery across the way. So what is shakespeares most powerful plate or speech in this area . What do you think about any of the particular canon of that . Is it andrea and richard to play . Where do you get your inspiration from, with regard to this topic in shakespeare . Do you want that . Sure. Its hard for me right now because im 24 hours a day with with me right now. And something im finding really inspiring in his writing is how vulnerable he makes his soldiers when they talk about their country and their love for their country. Over and over again you have, the almost limit of poor scotland, oh, scotland, poor country, my poor country, weed for our country. Over and over from many different generals. I profoundly move once i start to track the pattern over and over again, and you know, it just, for me that was really the mode that guided me through the play. Thats the strongest characters with the most emotionally available when it came to expressing their love for the country. Well, i love the christian i never was against it. I wrote a book on it actually. There were two chronicles and they both recalled what henry v set. The very last thing he said to his army before the battle began, and incredibly modern. He said lets go, fellows. [laughing] lets go, fellows. What do you think. Mr. Secretary . Well, its hard to go after him, isnt it . [laughing] i would say this. Fighting as many war words as or country has been lately wars wars ultimately havent changed. Wars have become very personal, and we talked about the remoteness. We talked about the technology. We talked about all those things, but the decision to kill or not to kill is corporal and is strained human nature. It has a strained a deep question. Do you have the right . You do not have the right . On the vietnam memorial, weve got to look at that. That war was still unsettled. A lot of our veterans show up and they look at. Of time , they put their hands and rubbing against it, its a very emotional experience. Why is it unsettled . The nation was different, the rules of engagement were uncertain. And you look at todays world. Rules of engagement still are not defined as you wouldthink. A lot of it didnt come back and had their legs blown off, they asked the courts why. Iraq, what have we gained . Iraq and afghanistan. But its the same question. When my buddy got out of it, what did they do. The more you fight, the more it raises those questions and you see a lot of ptsd and emotional strength. Thats the same question. As what shakespeare face. So as bright as we think we are, as americans or humans, i think it goes back to our experience. Im in austin is, by the way. From above where we come, what were doing. That weve learned about where were going to go. But we should ask questions. This is a great panel because it asks hard questions and looking at the audience, its a very well educated, local audience im addressing so its very difficult questions. Lets talk about leadership and war because one last area and i like to go through the whole panel but bernard, how about you start off because you mentioned es forster informed war into her early biographical statements in some of her early coat jackets, for that genre of writing which i believe very much informed english as a model for leadership. But youve created new ones in your writing. Would you reflect on either fictional or real leaders and will go right down the panel on that leadership quality and perhaps you could talk about richard shaw. Is leading in the fight, i saw and then made a toll. [laughter]. [inaudible] what i said is about leadership, i like ferries. Thats on the record. I can applaud, i know what makes a good leader, ive been led. Im asking the program, but its a great one, the great thing is not making the wrong decision, its making their decision. We had a News Conference and he talked about film stuff and i think it was should we go this or that or altogether and this is my contribution to this professional reading. And i yield the floor. Missed tommy . Its interesting this discussion, again i grew up in an activist world where the question of leadership was constantly a part of my childhood. For every daughter and good leader, what part of the congress ive been hearing back in the battle days of apartheid but this was a never ending examination and i grew up with a person telling me that is good leadership area and it has served me very well because i can say, just making a decision, be prepared to make a decision. Dont leave people floundering. In terms of effect, you have a leader that is a model leader, compassionate, his language she, the language is incredibly firm, decisive and loving towards her things. And then you have High Contrast macbeth who is a rabid, who is paranoid and theres a line where they talk about how the soldiers dont fight for him out of loyalty. They fight for the opposition. And then fast forward in the play they talk about the english king whose the son of duncan for political reasons at the time it was a written, that king is no mother teresa. But he, shakespeare unpacked all the different kinds of leaders and how soldiers follow and what makes them loyal and what makes a good leader. Its very clearly lined out in the play, its fascinating. One of my heroes and a heroto many people , i took my first of office in the 21st century and had a consistent jury in 1971. You can do the math. Im an old guy. And the thing that ive learned since then is not only is leadership important for you to do but can you teach others the elements of leadership as well . Because if its not teachable, its not sustainable. Though ive come to the conclusion leadership is about two things only. Exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising judgment. I put all else with regard to leadership secondary to what i consider leadership at any level whether its organization, individual or reputation of leadership. Exercising judgment and being accountable for exercising that judgment. Mister secretary. Well, we trust the writing, we have to trust. Right . If the decision is right. You have to have the judgment to know if youve made a decision not to be an ideologue. You have to listen and change based on new evidence, compelling evidence, just because in the beginning of a battle you go through and your planning and youd be surprised or maybe not that the first moment of a battle, most of the planning is pretty worthless. So you have to look at the situation and be able to react and use good judgment and leadership has this certain genocide clock. How do you get people to follow you . And that is an intangible asset. Whether its not you, whether its people that you care for, whether you know their wife or kids, their birthdays or something about them. Really talented leaders. You just want to follow them. Trust is part of it but thats a special part which makes the difference between you know, a major and a kernel and the general is that theres Something Special about them. And we had some pretty good leaders in this country. Ive been probably 63 countries in my time, botswana. Ive seen other nations as military leaders and we have phenomenal leaders in our military. That rise far above this country. Theres a few that are good. Id say the french. But i think that would wrap it up. Let me tell you we are planning another program, and were going to think about what truth theres lives were like in shakespeares time to now. Going to touch on what happened to prisoners then and i hope you enjoyed this program and we will come back to that but more importantly, i hope you will all buy tickets to tommys play. [applause] the thing you can do for us is become subscribers to the theater. Its wonderful to have this group and we have our participation with the members of the Supreme Court at the mock trial. We are so privileged in washington we get to know the justices as they come to dinner with us at the theater and they come to the theater to refresh themselves and so its a unique place and you are a unique audience and i want to thank you and more importantly i want to thank this great panel so when you show them some love western mark. [applause]

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